Reggie Miller : "LeBron James would make the Lakers a better team than Kobe does"

[Killakobe81]

I dont think kobe is at Mj's level ...I just hate when he is put on a pedestal like no one can "touch" him at this point kobe is not "there" and he may never be ...
But Lebron has a "chance" just like Kobe did but Kobe's time is slippin away ...

LBJ probaly needs to win a title in the next 3 years or he may not be able to pass MJ ...

And rings ARE ALL THAT matter because the stats are meaningless ... to me if sats are all that matter than shaq is better than duncan and dirk better than KG end of story ...
but titles MATTER sorry but THEY do ...

Doesnt mean that Dirk is not great or LBJ for NOT having one ...but it cements your legacy

[HarlemHeat37]

Of course titles matter from a career list perspective..if you ask me who has had the better career between Kobe and Lebron, of course it's Kobe..that's not the question here, it's about the better player NOW, and it's obviously Lebron..

[ClippersDynasty]

I took out your avatar. Several people thought it was too much.

I can't help the way I look :depressed

[tlongII]

Kobe will win his 7th? :lmao

[FkLA]

Lebron averages 6.8 assists career. Kobe 4.6 Kobe, other than the forst 2 years where he came off the bench has always averaged around 4 or 5 a game so your 3 assists comment is total fabrication on your part. If your going to hate... at least hate with facts.

Why career? A few years ago Kobe was the better player and none of us "haters" argued otherwise. We're talking about the present, and currently Bron averages 8 apg to Kobe's 5.


The fact that Timmy gets those very same calls didint sit you down talking about Kobe's calls did it. You cannot even follow your own advice!

Timmy gets calls, like any other superstar I wont deny that. I didnt bring up Kobe getting calls to complain about it though like Laker fan did, I brought it to make a point that he has no business talking shit about Bron getting special treatment when Kobe gets the same perks. I do have to note though that while Duncan does get some calls he doesnt get nearly as many as Bron, Kobe, and Wade do. Those 3 players are in a class of their own as far as getting whistles go.


Do you even watch Laker games other than the few on national tv every year? Kobe has been the leading assist man on the team for the decade. Not even close? Lebron averages 2 assists more per game in a system in which he has his hands on the ball 80% of the time in playmaking mode. Kobe plays in the triangle where ball movement is required. Yes, he gets out of that mode and has to be reminded every so often but to call LBJ a playmaker and Kobe not is just pure ignorance.

I never said Kobe wasnt a playmaker, if you notice I even said I think he has the tools to be just as good of a playmaker as Bron. His problem is that thats never been him, he gets more satisfaction out of scoring. Also your whole triangle offense to Bron 1 on 5 offense comparison proves the point, Bron has to create and facilitate for his team. Kobe can get assists off of the system itself.


gotta love this.... he points out 4 players and uses nicknames given them do as a diss to thier qualities.

Whats your point? Doesnt change the fact that those four players are better than the Cavs 2nd best player. Or would you actually take Mo Williams over Pau, Bynum, Odom, or Artest?

[Killakobe81]

Having good shooters and having talent are two completely different things. Those same shooters that are thriving with Bron would see their percentages drop without Bron drawing the defense on him. That is like saying that the pre-2005 Spurs (before Parker and Ginobili emerged as all-stars) were full of talent because the shooters that surrounded Duncan were continuously among the league leaders in 3 pt%. It makes no sense.

As far as talent goes, what Bron has and what Kobe has is not even comparable...Kobe has 4 players on his team that are more talented than the Cavs second best player. Lebron is leading his team to the best record out East and only a matter of time before it becomes the best in the league with less, there's no disputing that. Statistically he is better, his team is right up there as well despite having less talent. I dont get how these Laker homers have the audacity to still hang on to the notion that Kobe is better.

BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY CARE about titles ...I know you guys have 4 but let me school you young buck ...you guys are the "new money" this decade has taught you a bit aout winning but because the recent past is still fresh ...you still act more like the loser franchise fan-base than the "old money" elite like the Celts and Lakers.
Case in point many of the vet Spur fans would argue the same LBJ cases being made now that the Admiral the best center but his coach and team let him down but all the while what he REALLY needed was Tim to lead hm to a title.
For all the spur fans who hate on Kobe he did more for all his 4 rings than David ever did for his ...but i don't see you shittin' on David.

Rings matter and yall could cry stats (isnt that what kobe fans used to do 81 scoring title, blah blah) , PER usage rate but Id rather have the rings ....

Dont get me wrong Im not saying rondo or TP are BETTER than C3P or Dwill because they have rings, but Neither of those guys are LEADING their teams anyway ...
BUT if you want to be the best they have to win one otherwise their cieling is John stockton or Jkidd
The best ever Magic, Isiah and even Chauncey have theirs ...

[Killakobe81]

Before kobe won the title last year I would never even consider hhim in the same class as Magic ...even though i dont agre with the Shaq coattails crap cuz i watched every game of the 3 peat ...he wasnt the leader of the team stats wise or leadership (and in some ways neither was Shaq) Phil was ...

But the past 2 seasons he has changed is he still prone to take ill-advised shots? Yes and I HATE when he does it ...BUT those that says he is on same level of Joe Johnson roy etc are idiots ...

[Killakobe81]

Of course titles matter from a career list perspective..if you ask me who has had the better career between Kobe and Lebron, of course it's Kobe..that's not the question here, it's about the better player NOW, and it's obviously Lebron..

You maybe right ...but a ring is needed to validate that ...he is the best player that has not yet won a title THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT ...

[FkLA]

I dont disagree with this. But people need not to dismiss the Cavs team outside of Lebron. They already have a solid foundation there. Adding a great player (Wade, Lebron, Kobe, take your pick) with that cast is a winning formula regardless. So let's not act (not you) that that team's chances of being successful minus Lebron is non existent.



I neither said nor suggested those shooters were better than Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum. I merely challenged your contention that I bolded.

I do think Kobe has more talent on his team. But, I also think LeBron has pretty good talent on his. Not the same as the Lakers or the Celtics, but very good talent, and talent that suits LeBron. Not that he couldn't play with two big post players, but that would also change LeBron's game. He wouldn't attack the rim nearly as much. He wouldn't push the ball in transition as much. Right now, he has Shaq who is limited and doesn't demand as many touches as he used to. Then he has Varejao who doesn't require touches and Z who shoots jumpers. That suits his skill set and what he likes to do pretty well. Now, talent-wise, you absolutely take Gasol and Bynum. But, some talk about LeBron's teammates as if they aren't good at all. That's not true. They may not be top 5 or top 10 players at their positions, but he has a few very good teammates and several solid role playing teammates who play those roles well.

I agree with you guys when you say that Bron's cast is nowhere near as bad as some people make it seem. They certainly arent scrubs and are more than respectable, they also compliment Lebron's game nicely. I just think that as far as talent goes they simply are not comparable to Kobe's teammates.

Also RsxPimp, regarding the whole plug a superstar in place of Bron and the results are the same...thats arguable. Kobe from before Pau arrived, had Odom as his second best player. Is that any worse than Mo Williams? He had Mihm and Kwame putting up similar production to what Big Z and Shaq are putting up right now. He had Caron Butler as a swingman, a solid defensive player and better offensive player than A. Parker. I dont think Kobe's team was better than what Bron has currently, but there also isnt an astronomical difference in talent. Bron's team currently is arguably the best in the league, Kobe's Lakers back than where nowhere close to being that. I know this is hypothetical shit, but so is your suggestion that Kobe on the Cavs would lead a less talented team to the same results. Like I said its arguable.


FkLA is a god awful poster.

Oh haiii dirk4mvp :)

[Killakobe81]

SO let me ask this honestly ...so LBJ is the best ...best on stats etc.
SO Dirk is better than Duncan?
Would ANYONE here EXCEPT HOMER MAVS fans take Dirk over Duncan? AFTR I like dirk he is uber clutch (reg season) but duncan has done this in the FINALS until dirk wins one I STILL take Timmy Can dirk CONSISTENTLY put up better numbers? no doubt. but in the same vein I take Kobe still ...not saying his better cuz that is subjective but until LBJ wins it all ...

For 2012 I take dirk and LBJ ...cuz duncan and Kobe will be 2 years older ...

[FkLA]

BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY CARE about titles ...I know you guys have 4 but let me school you young buck ...you guys are the "new money" this decade has taught you a bit aout winning but because the recent past is still fresh ...you still act more like the loser franchise fan-base than the "old money" elite like the Celts and Lakers.
Case in point many of the vet Spur fans would argue the same LBJ cases being made now that the Admiral the best center but his coach and team let him down but all the while what he REALLY needed was Tim to lead hm to a title.
For all the spur fans who hate on Kobe he did more for all his 4 rings than David ever did for his ...but i don't see you shittin' on David.

Rings matter and yall could cry stats (isnt that what kobe fans used to do 81 scoring title, blah blah) , PER usage rate but Id rather have the rings ....

Dont get me wrong Im not saying rondo or TP are BETTER than C3P or Dwill because they have rings, but Neither of those guys are LEADING their teams anyway ...
BUT if you want to be the best they have to win one otherwise their cieling is John stockton or Jkidd
The best ever Magic, Isiah and even Chauncey have theirs ...

Rings matter, but lets be honest its kind of retarded to use it as the sole basis. Especially when the disparity of the teammates is so obvious...there is no way that we can just ignore supporting casts they have to be taken into account. And for the record I do not think Roy, Joe Johnson, or Downtown Devin Brown are on par with Kobe. Kobe is still the 2nd best player in the game.

Also Chauncey has no business being put in the same class as Magic or Isiah.

[Donkeybong]

I agree with you guys when you say that Bron's cast is nowhere near as bad as some people make it seem. They certainly arent scrubs and are more than respectable, they also compliment Lebron's game nicely. I just think that as far as talent goes they simply are not comparable to Kobe's teammates.

Also RsxPimp, regarding the whole plug a superstar in place of Bron and the results are the same...thats arguable. Kobe from before Pau arrived, had Odom as his second best player. Is that any worse than Mo Williams? He had Mihm and Kwame putting up similar production to what Big Z and Shaq are putting up right now. He had Caron Butler as a swingman, a solid defensive player and better offensive player than A. Parker. I dont think Kobe's team was better than what Bron has currently, but there also isnt an astronomical difference in talent. Bron's team currently is arguably the best in the league, Kobe's Lakers back than where nowhere close to being that. I know this is hypothetical shit, but so is your suggestion that Kobe on the Cavs would lead a less talented team to the same results. Like I said its arguable.



Oh haiii dirk4mvp :)

Did you seriously just compare Big Z and Shaq to Mihm and Kwame Brown?

[FkLA]

SO let me ask this honestly ...so LBJ is the best ...best on stats etc.
SO Dirk is better than Duncan?
Would ANYONE here EXCEPT HOMER MAVS fans take Dirk over Duncan? AFTR I like dirk he is uber clutch (reg season) but duncan has done this in the FINALS until dirk wins one I STILL take Timmy Can dirk CONSISTENTLY put up better numbers? no doubt. but in the same vein I take Kobe still ...not saying his better cuz that is subjective but until LBJ wins it all ...

For 2012 I take dirk and LBJ ...cuz duncan and Kobe will be 2 years older ...

Dirk's stats arent even better, he scores more points thats it. He also has the fact that he is an average defender while Duncan is an all-nba defender going against him. Thats not the case in the Bron-Kobe comparison, therefore I dont really see it the same way.


Did you seriously just compare Big Z and Shaq to Mihm and Kwame Brown?

Yessir. I compared their production. Go back and check their numbers compared to what Big Z and Shaq are currently putting up. In case yall havent noticed Shaq is no longer the player that terrorized the league and Big Z is nowhere near being the all-star he once was.

[Killakobe81]

Rings matter, but lets be honest its kind of retarded to use it as the sole basis. Especially when the disparity of the teammates is so obvious...there is no way that we can just ignore supporting casts they have to be taken into account. And for the record I do not think Roy, Joe Johnson, or Downtown Devin Brown are on par with Kobe. Kobe is still the 2nd best player in the game.

Also Chauncey has no business being put in the same class as Magic or Isiah.

I agree he is more in line with Parker or rondo BUT he did FAR more for his team winning a title trhan either of the two ...my point is he has lead his team to a title as it's best player something C3p or Dwill have not come close to doing of COURSE supporting casts matter...but the BEST aLWAYS have rings ...

I dare anyone that can argue aNYONE was DEFINITIVELY the best player without a ring ...even MJ BEFORE he won was the best but he needed the rings to validate it ...some still argued Bird, Magic or Isiah. Once he won it was unanimous to most

WHY SHOULD LEBRON get this pass? Maybe Im old-school but Magic and Bird Passed it to Isiah who passed it to Mj who passed it to Hakeem the MJ took it back it was shared by Shaq/Kobe/Tim ...to have the torch as the Best you need to repeat or at least win every other year like Tim i make the exception for duncan ...
the one and ones? Pierce, KG, Wade Billups they above the ringless but they can NOT be considered the BEST

Name me the best players in aNY sport they win rings and until they do to me they are suspect even Barry Sanders, Karl Malone Marino and charles Barkley

[Killakobe81]

Dirk's stats arent even better, he scores more points thats it. He also has the fact that he is an average defender while Duncan is an all-nba defender going against him. Thats not the case in the Bron-Kobe comparison, therefore I dont really see it the same way.



Yessir. I compared their production. Go back and check their numbers compared to what Big Z and Shaq are currently putting up. In case yall havent noticed Shaq is no longer the player that terrorized the league and Big Z is nowhere near being the all-star he once was.

Lebron is nOT a great defender and although Dirk is no duncan he has improved ...

OK lets use howard more blocks, rebounds FG% than duncan is he better?
I STILL take Duncan.
Dwight is the Lebron of big men but I take the champion everytime until he wins one ...in the Finals Gasol did a decent job on Dwight ...could he do that with Ducan? umm no!

[Metheny]

ahh..just like its clear that Lebron is a better player then Jordan right?

Is this some kind of joke?


hes not on the same level

[FkLA]

I agree he is more in line with Parker or rondo BUT he did FAR more for his team winning a title trhan either of the two ...my point is he has lead his team to a title as it's best player something C3p or Dwill have not come close to doing of COURSE supporting casts matter...but the BEST aLWAYS have rings ...

I dare anyone that can argue aNYONE was DEFINITIVELY the best player without a ring ...even MJ BEFORE he won was the best but he needed the rings to validate it ...some still argued Bird, Magic or Isiah. Once he won it was unanimous to most

WHY SHOULD LEBRON get this pass? Maybe Im old-school but Magic and Bird Passed it to Isiah who passed it to Mj who passed it to Hakeem the MJ took it back it was shared by Shaq/Kobe/Tim ...to have the torch as the Best you need to repeat or at least win every other year like Tim i make the exception for duncan ...
the one and ones? Pierce, KG, Wade Billups they above the ringless but they can NOT be considered the BEST

Name me the best players in aNY sport they win rings and until they do to me they are suspect even Barry Sanders, Karl Malone Marino and charles Barkley

I understand that approach man, especially since you previously stated that you held Kobe to the same standard and didnt put him in the same class as Magic until he won as the alpha dog in 09'. But cant say I agree with it completely, especially when supporting casts are factored in. Considering the teammates Bron has had, and for him to have reached the Finals once already along with having the best record last year and ECF appearance, plus what he is doing this season...its pretty impressive. Not on par with what Kobe's Lakers have accomplished, but still pretty impressive given the talent Cleveland has surrounded him with.

As far as Chauncey goes, he was the best player on that Pistons team...but by a hair. He doesnt get the same credit as say Duncan, Kobe (09), or Wade get because he isnt really an elite player. That Pistons team was more of a complete team, rather than these other teams that had a clear cut superstar as their leader...arguments could even be made for both Rip and Big Ben being the best player on that team. Rasheed Wallace was an all-star too and Tayshaun was a borderline all-star and his work on Kobe in the 04' Finals was key to that series.

[Metheny]

He averaged 22/9/6, shot 49% from the field, was named All Star Game MVP, finished 3rd in League MVP voting, led a team full of scrubs to 55 regular season wins and a first round playoff series win, and took a pretty good New York Knicks team to 7 games.

A tad bit more than "nothing."



Scottie was a great player dont get me wrong but hes not in jordans league birds league or magics league as ppl mistakenly always say he was a major player as if jordan played with a shaq lvl player or duncan lvl player

[mystargtr34]

SO let me ask this honestly ...so LBJ is the best ...best on stats etc.
SO Dirk is better than Duncan?
Would ANYONE here EXCEPT HOMER MAVS fans take Dirk over Duncan? AFTR I like dirk he is uber clutch (reg season) but duncan has done this in the FINALS until dirk wins one I STILL take Timmy Can dirk CONSISTENTLY put up better numbers? no doubt. but in the same vein I take Kobe still ...not saying his better cuz that is subjective but until LBJ wins it all ...

For 2012 I take dirk and LBJ ...cuz duncan and Kobe will be 2 years older ...

What are you trying to say? That Dirk has better all-around stats than Duncan?

[Metheny]

What are you trying to say? That Dirk has better all-around stats than Duncan?

I think thats what hes trying to say however hes really dumb and doesn't realise hes comparing one of the top 10 players of all time to some choke artist chump that is still recovering from the fact that he has won 1 MVP award and is satisfied with that :lol

[hater]

SO let me ask this honestly ...so LBJ is the best ...best on stats etc.
SO Dirk is better than Duncan?
Would ANYONE here EXCEPT HOMER MAVS fans take Dirk over Duncan? AFTR I like dirk he is uber clutch (reg season) but duncan has done this in the FINALS until dirk wins one I STILL take Timmy Can dirk CONSISTENTLY put up better numbers? no doubt. but in the same vein I take Kobe still ...not saying his better cuz that is subjective but until LBJ wins it all ...

For 2012 I take dirk and LBJ ...cuz duncan and Kobe will be 2 years older ...

are you comparing Dirk to today's DUncan or young Duncan? Dirk vs. young Duncan is garbage. Dirk vs. today's Duncan is pretty much on same level DIrk better offensive player, Duncan better defensive.

I am comparing today's Lebron vs. today's Kobe. Lebron is clearly better. take the homer glasses off.


And could someone tell me what is in Kobe's police report? what did he do?

[Killakobe81]

I understand that approach man, especially since you previously stated that you held Kobe to the same standard and didnt put him in the same class as Magic until he won as the alpha dog in 09'. But cant say I agree with it completely, especially when supporting casts are factored in. Considering the teammates Bron has had, and for him to have reached the Finals once already along with having the best record last year and ECF appearance, plus what he is doing this season...its pretty impressive. Not on par with what Kobe's Lakers have accomplished, but still pretty impressive given the talent Cleveland has surrounded him with.

As far as Chauncey goes, he was the best player on that Pistons team...but by a hair. He doesnt get the same credit as say Duncan, Kobe (09), or Wade get because he isnt really an elite player. That Pistons team was more of a complete team, rather than these other teams that had a clear cut superstar as their leader...arguments could even be made for both Rip and Big Ben being the best player on that team. Rasheed Wallace was an all-star too and Tayshaun was a borderline all-star and his work on Kobe in the 04' Finals was key to that series.

Great post you make some great points. ANd i fully expect LBJ to be the best player I just feel you have to win it that's all. Day in and day out LBJ is far moreimpressive than Kobe...withthe highlight blocks, dunks and dimes.

But as Herm says you play to win the game and the 4th winning game of the FINALS is the ultimate game and LBJ hasnt done it yet. I think he will sooner rather thamn later and when he does especially twice he will get all the respect due to him ...

[Killakobe81]

are you comparing Dirk to today's DUncan or young Duncan? Dirk vs. young Duncan is garbage. Dirk vs. today's Duncan is pretty much on same level DIrk better offensive player, Duncan better defensive.

I am comparing today's Lebron vs. today's Kobe. Lebron is clearly better. take the homer glasses off.


And could someone tell me what is in Kobe's police report? what did he do?

WE were talking about NOW read the posts and I SAID I WOULD STILL take Duncan ...

[anakha]

The guy who made the statement in the OP is the same guy who, in the recently-concluded game, just said about a Rasheed Wallace three attempt:

"It was a good look it just looked like Wallace was 3 feet farther back than he would've liked."

The shot was an airball wide left.

/thread

[hater]

WE were talking about NOW read the posts and I SAID I WOULD STILL take Duncan ...

good for you. I would take Lebron over KObe 100 times out of 100

[TheMACHINE]

Is this some kind of joke?


hes not on the same level

If Jordan didnt win any rings...would he still be the greatest ever?

[TheMACHINE]

It's because no one was trying to put Magic, Bird, or KG on a level they don't belong on :lol

Some delusional Laker fans out there believe Kobe should be in the talks of G.O.A.T because he finally led his team to ONE title. And they think Kobe's 4 ring total somehow correlates to Jordan's 6 but never factor in the way Jordan and Kobe won their championships. Sometimes you have to remind these kind of fools that Jordan won 6 titles as bonafide numero uno. When Kobe won his first title he was a inconsistent rising star mixing good games with some downright atrocious ones. Yet, Kobe homers want to ignore that and scream "Kobe has 4 rings, put him up there with MJ" :lol

Of course people are gonna argue against that shit.

So why is Lebron in Kobe's level? One championship as the lead guy and 4 as a side kick doesnt matter?

[TheMACHINE]

thank goodness no one compares LBJ to Jordan.

cuz we all know that Lebron > MJ sans championships.

[Chieflion]

So why is Lebron in Kobe's level? One championship as the lead guy and 4 as a side kick doesnt matter?
Where did the extra championship come from?

4+1=5

[Killakobe81]

good for you. I would take Lebron over KObe 100 times out of 100

Good for you and you would have the same number of titles ...LOL

[namlook]

Yessir. I compared their production. Go back and check their numbers compared to what Big Z and Shaq are currently putting up. In case yall havent noticed Shaq is no longer the player that terrorized the league and Big Z is nowhere near being the all-star he once was.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. Some players take reduced roles on certain teams that is not always indicative of how good they are. Shaq could still score 15-20 a game if he wanted to. Mihm and Kwame could never do that if they played their best game every day. Both Z and Shaq are former all-stars that are still way more effective than Mihm and Kwame ever were. It's a joke they are even being compared.

[namlook]

Where did the extra championship come from?

4+1=5

Consider the source.

[RsxPiimp]

I live in LA and watch tons of Laker games - all for the joy of watching them lose. I actually have always liked the Lakers - until Bryant got there. I now give away tickets to Laker games because I can't stand Laker fans.

Why can I not stand Laker fans? Because all they do is cling to a guy like Bryant, who ran Shaquille (the guy responsible for bringing three titles to the city) out of town, then immediately cried to the front office to get him help.

The guy embodies the antithesis of team basketball, both on the court, and especially off the court. To me it's shameful that anybody would pull for this guy. Especially women. When I see a woman or little girl walking around in a Bryant jersey, my skin crawls. Do yourself a favor and read the police report from Colorado. The guy is, at best, a disgrace tot he League and to the storied Laker organization. And for Laker fans who continually say, "He wasn't convicted of any crime - he didn't do anything." Please, read the police report. It's all in Bryant's words talking about exactly what he did - at least what he admitteded to the police that he did. By the way, this is also when he mentioned Shaquille's name - a teammate - when Bryant himself was being questioned about an alleged sexual assault. Shaquille O'Neal wasn't even in the state of Colorado at the time.

The only positive thing I can say about Bryant is that he's able to put the ball in the hoop if he gets enough shots, and that's a ton of shots I might add. If that attribute makes Laker fans happy, so be it. He's a guy playing a team sport, but he's playing for himself. Always has, always will. That's obvious to fans of every other team in the league, but not to Laker fans.

Read the police report.

Some people are either, dense or just misinformed. Buss and Shaq admitted they both dont want to be a associated after the 2002-2003 season. That's a fact. And people really need to give that rape charge a rest. Seriously.



I
Also RsxPimp, regarding the whole plug a superstar in place of Bron and the results are the same...thats arguable. Kobe from before Pau arrived, had Odom as his second best player. Is that any worse than Mo Williams? He had Mihm and Kwame putting up similar production to what Big Z and Shaq are putting up right now. He had Caron Butler as a swingman, a solid defensive player and better offensive player than A. Parker. I dont think Kobe's team was better than what Bron has currently, but there also isnt an astronomical difference in talent. Bron's team currently is arguably the best in the league, Kobe's Lakers back than where nowhere close to being that. I know this is hypothetical shit, but so is your suggestion that Kobe on the Cavs would lead a less talented team to the same results. Like I said its arguable.


Odom is probably a much valuable piece than Mo Williams...if he gets his head in the game. The problem with Odom is not his talent but rather his mental approach on a nightly basis. He was good but not second option good. And Im not even going to go in lengths proving how aweful Kobe's cast were for the first couple of years post Shaq.

Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker,Devean Geroge,Sasha Vujacic Brian Cook ?Their third best player before was Chris Mihm who had a season ending injury and never recovered. Those players are night and day worst than Varejao, Delonte West, Damon Jones, Devin Brown,Joe Smith,Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Bobbie Gibson,Wally Sczerbiak and Ben Wallace. Ferry has always surrounded Lebron with a good mix of players that displays a propensity to play defense and shoot the lights out.



Good thing you mentioned Caron Butler. Had LA kept him instead of sending the guy to Washington for Kwame Brown, he would've elevated his game and status as an All-Star playing next to Kobe. People give Kobe such a hard time for his 04-05 season but also fail to realize that, Kobe missed 16 games, Lamar missed 18 games and the coach left midpoint of the season.

[21_Blessings]

Why isn't this crap in the Kobe thread? Ya'll all terrible.

[RsxPiimp]

Why isn't this crap in the Kobe thread? Ya'll all terrible.

Chris Bitchards started the thread, surprised no one has moved this yet. This open a gate for people to create a billion Kobe threads from now on.

[TheMACHINE]

Good thing you mentioned Caron Butler. Had LA kept him instead of sending the guy to Washington for Kwame Brown, he would've elevated his game and status as an All-Star playing next to Kobe. People give Kobe such a hard time for his 04-05 season but also fail to realize that, Kobe missed 16 games, Lamar missed 18 games and the coach left midpoint of the season.

Also, Kobe had to start from scratch. No Malone, No Payton, No Fisher, No Shaq, No Horry, No Fox, No Phil Jackson.

[Metheny]

If Jordan didnt win any rings...would he still be the greatest ever?

Obviously not why would anyone in there right mind call someone the greatest ever if he can't win rings?

[RsxPiimp]

Obviously not why would anyone in there right mind call someone the greatest ever if he can't win rings?

Well, people are already calling Lebron as the greatest SF ever.

[JamStone]

People were calling Michael Jordan one of the best ever before he won any titles. He had that 32/8/8 season before he won a championship. He won a league MVP before winning a championship. He was putting up numbers people hadn't seen since Oscar, and against what was viewed as a much tougher league.

So, it's understandable why LeBron might be called the best SF ever for some. I don't think he's surpassed Bird yet, but I see why some people might think at least statistically why he's already there. But, if he never wins a ring, the view will definitely change. Just like Jordan, had he not won any rings, people wouldn't be talking about him being the greatest ever over guys like Wilt or Magic or Kareem or Oscar. Part of it is actual greatness and statistical dominance, but the other part of it is expectation of LeBron that he will be a champion in the future. People probably viewed Dominique similarly (but not to the same extent) as a great, great player who would be one of the greatest ever in the mid to late 80s. Viewed as the same type of talent as Dr. J and Bird. But as his career went on and it was apparent that he'd never win a title, a lot of his shine dulled. We don't talk about him in the same breath as Michael or Magic or Bird. He's viewed as a second or even third tier superstar.

LeBron absolutely has the potential to be one of the greatest players ever. His statistical production is pretty much there already. His game still needs a little polish and improvement but it seems like that will get there too. But, if he never wins a title, he simply won't get there. Period.

[JamStone]

Scottie was a great player dont get me wrong but hes not in jordans league birds league or magics league as ppl mistakenly always say he was a major player as if jordan played with a shaq lvl player or duncan lvl player

I never said Pippen was on the same level as Shaq or Duncan. I was responding to the comment that Pippen was "nothing" when Jordan left.

I've read a few of your posts in this thread, and you seem to misconstrue a lot of comments, especially sarcasm.

[Fabbs]

the sky is blue.
:lol

[Metheny]

Well, people are already calling Lebron as the greatest SF ever.

thats because theres people like you who are idiots hes extremely good and has a bright future ahead of him but as of right now hes not the greatest SF ever. I'm not saying that in 2-3 he won't be considered otherwise though.

[Metheny]

I never said Pippen was on the same level as Shaq or Duncan. I was responding to the comment that Pippen was "nothing" when Jordan left.

I've read a few of your posts in this thread, and you seem to misconstrue a lot of comments, especially sarcasm.

You seem to put pippen up there as if he was such a dominating player like micheal had the second best player in the league or something. People miscontrue alot of player actually i do apologize if i took what you said wrong but it seemed like you were saying pippen was as dominating as MJ.

[JamStone]

You seem to put pippen up there as if he was such a dominating player like micheal had the second best player in the league or something. People miscontrue alot of player actually i do apologize if i took what you said wrong but it seemed like you were saying pippen was as dominating as MJ.

That's not what I was suggesting, not close to what I was suggesting. I was suggesting Pippen was more than a "nothing" player. But it's cool. I was just responding to what I felt was something you misconstrued.

[Metheny]

People were calling Michael Jordan one of the best ever before he won any titles. He had that 32/8/8 season before he won a championship. He won a league MVP before winning a championship. He was putting up numbers people hadn't seen since Oscar, and against what was viewed as a much tougher league.

So, it's understandable why LeBron might be called the best SF ever for some. I don't think he's surpassed Bird yet, but I see why some people might think at least statistically why he's already there. But, if he never wins a ring, the view will definitely change. Just like Jordan, had he not won any rings, people wouldn't be talking about him being the greatest ever over guys like Wilt or Magic or Kareem or Oscar. Part of it is actual greatness and statistical dominance, but the other part of it is expectation of LeBron that he will be a champion in the future. People probably viewed Dominique similarly (but not to the same extent) as a great, great player who would be one of the greatest ever in the mid to late 80s. Viewed as the same type of talent as Dr. J and Bird. But as his career went on and it was apparent that he'd never win a title, a lot of his shine dulled. We don't talk about him in the same breath as Michael or Magic or Bird. He's viewed as a second or even third tier superstar.

LeBron absolutely has the potential to be one of the greatest players ever. His statistical production is pretty much there already. His game still needs a little polish and improvement but it seems like that will get there too. But, if he never wins a title, he simply won't get there. Period.


this is so dumb he won 6 championships DONT BRING IN THE WHAT IF HE DIDN"T ARGUMENT thats the dumbest thing ever so what if wilt didn't win or kareem they did win and thats why theyre amazing players.

[resistanze]

this is so dumb he won 6 championships DONT BRING IN THE WHAT IF HE DIDN"T ARGUMENT thats the dumbest thing ever so what if wilt didn't win or kareem they did win and thats why theyre amazing players.

:lmao

[Metheny]

don't really understand whats so funny? wilt and kareem were both exceptional players are in the top 10 list for sure SO WHAT IF THEY DIDN'T WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP. Kinda dumb don't you think?

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan's early success easily trumps Lebron, its a no contest and should not be used for comparison, simply because MJ transcends the game when the league was all about Magic and Bird. MJ earned the "GOAT" status because of how he revolutionized the image of the league, aside from the fact that he's also the game's best product.


Lebron never did that. He's not even its most famous athlete. Up at this point, Kobe is much more adored and a world wide phenomenon figure compared to Lebron.


Lebron is not the greatest SF at this point. The game is not all about statistics. He's a bigger and much more complete version of Dominique Wilkins. Shows us the rings Bron then we'll automatically drop all these doubts.

[TheMACHINE]

Obviously not why would anyone in there right mind call someone the greatest ever if he can't win rings?

Then why is Lebron > Kobe?

[JamStone]

this is so dumb he won 6 championships DONT BRING IN THE WHAT IF HE DIDN"T ARGUMENT thats the dumbest thing ever so what if wilt didn't win or kareem they did win and thats why theyre amazing players.

You're really having trouble with reading comprehension or following along the thread.

Someone else talked about what if Jordan didn't win titles. And, I'm not dismissing Jordan at all. I'm comparing the perception of Jordan before he won titles with the perception of LeBron now.

Even before Jordan won his first title, people were talking about him being one of the greatest players ever, just like they do now with LeBron. When Jordan went on to win multiple titles, that basically cemented his greatness.

People talk about LeBron as already being one of the greatest players ever. Now things can go one of three ways for LeBron assuming he stays healthy. He can win multiple titles as the man and go down as probably a top 5 maybe even top 3 player ever in the history of the game. He can win no titles and still have a remarkable statistical career and still probably be a top 25 player ever, but definitely not anywhere close to the discussion of greatest ever. Or he can win one, maybe two, titles but has to get on a stacked team to do so, where he'll be viewed more as like a Kevin Garnett type guy but still one of the all time greats.

Now please try to follow the posts and the thread better before attacking people, especially if you don't really understand what is being discussed.

[Metheny]

Career wise its Kobe> Lebron But as for RIGHT NOW Lebron is the better player.



But as Career Wise kobe as accomplished more than Lebron has for now..

[RsxPiimp]

When Kobe was hitting 50% from the field with 30/5/6, hitting game winners left and right while leading the Lakers in the West without Gasol, people were comfortable with the notion that Lebron and Kobe are 1a and 1b, and that was just a few weeks ago, then injuries struck Bean and they automatically scratch Kobe from the best player list for the entire season?



That's just wrong.

[Metheny]

You're really having trouble with reading comprehension or following along the thread.

Someone else talked about what if Jordan didn't win titles. And, I'm not dismissing Jordan at all. I'm comparing the perception of Jordan before he won titles with the perception of LeBron now.

Even before Jordan won his first title, people were talking about him being one of the greatest players ever, just like they do now with LeBron. When Jordan went on to win multiple titles, that basically cemented his greatness.

People talk about LeBron as already being one of the greatest players ever. Now things can go one of three ways for LeBron assuming he stays healthy. He can win multiple titles as the man and go down as probably a top 5 maybe even top 3 player ever in the history of the game. He can win no titles and still have a remarkable statistical career and still probably be a top 25 player ever, but definitely not anywhere close to the discussion of greatest ever. Or he can win one, maybe two, titles but has to get on a stacked team to do so, where he'll be viewed more as like a Kevin Garnett type guy but still one of the all time greats.

Now please try to follow the posts and the thread better before attacking people, especially if you don't really understand what is being discussed.

Thank you for making sense

[Metheny]

I'm not trying to attack anyone but if you make a stupid comment im gonna respond

[RsxPiimp]

I'm not trying to attack anyone but if you make a stupid comment im gonna respond

You've been making stupid comments and attacking posters, yet no one has really called you out yet, ever think why?. Maybe its time to realize calling posters names is not exactly the best way to prove a point? Man up a little bit and be objective with discussions, it would help you out in the real world.

[Metheny]

i am stepping up its just that when you see people post ridiculous statements you kinda have to ask yourself what the hell is wrong with them.

[JamStone]

Problem is you haven't been understanding some of those comments fully and you are not picking up on sarcasm. People read your posts and think pretty much the same thing you think when you think you see a ridiculous statement.

[RsxPiimp]

Word^

[Metheny]

im sorry if i can't see sarcasm through text....:lol

[JamStone]

That's why you have to fully read posts and the thread to get better context. If a Lakerfan makes a comment saying it's clear LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan, you can have a pretty good idea that it's sarcasm for the purpose of making a point, especially if you read his other, previous posts in the thread.

And if it was only sarcasm you had a problem with, it wouldn't be as big of a problem. You've also misconstrued non-sarcastic comments as well. And, moreover, you are attacking people when you do so. So, it's quite a bit off-putting for you to attack posters when you don't even get what they're saying.

I could have just gotten into a flame war with you, but I realize you're somewhat new to the board and instead I explained the things I said that you misconstrued. There are plenty of posters on here that would have just attacked you right back. Just try to have a little more tact when you get into a discussion or debate. And if you're going to attack and call names, you better be damn sure you know what you're talking about and you understood what the other poster was saying, and more importantly what that poster means.

[TheMACHINE]

i am stepping up its just that when you see people post ridiculous statements you kinda have to ask yourself what the hell is wrong with them.

i think its more of a reading comprehension problem.

[Metheny]

That's why you have to fully read posts and the thread to get better context. If a Lakerfan makes a comment saying it's clear LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan, you can have a pretty good idea that it's sarcasm for the purpose of making a point, especially if you read his other, previous posts in the thread.

And if it was only sarcasm you had a problem with, it wouldn't be as big of a problem. You've also misconstrued non-sarcastic comments as well. And, moreover, you are attacking people when you do so. So, it's quite a bit off-putting for you to attack posters when you don't even get what they're saying.

I could have just gotten into a flame war with you, but I realize you're somewhat new to the board and instead I explained the things I said that you misconstrued. There are plenty of posters on here that would have just attacked you right back. Just try to have a little more tact when you get into a discussion or debate. And if you're going to attack and call names, you better be damn sure you know what you're talking about and you understood what the other poster was saying, and more importantly what that poster means.

The thing is i get the feeling when a laker fan says this is there not joking thats the problem its really ridiculous

[JamStone]

The thing is your feelings could be wrong, and in many of the attacking posts you've made in this thread, they were wrong.

[Killakobe81]

Why would be IMPOSSIBLe to say Lebron is better than MJ IF he is better than kobe?
- Lebron has great stats
- Does more with less
- Is more athletic

if titles dont matter why not Lebron? he gets more boards and assists ...

[Killakobe81]

Why would be IMPOSSIBLe to say Lebron is better than MJ IF he is better than kobe?
- Lebron has great stats
- Does more with less
- Is more athletic

if titles dont matter why not Lebron? he gets more boards and assists ...



The "chosen one logic" rings don't matter just the opinions of somemedia and loser internet posters!!!!

[21_Blessings]

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/banner2%283%29.jpg

:lol

[Killakobe81]

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/banner2%283%29.jpg

:lol

Division champioship banners LOL conference banners!!! WTF?!
What do THOSE look like up close? Oh wait ... I have seen them at the AAC in Dallas and the ALamodome in SA.... never seen those at staples or the Forum ...i wonder why?!

[JoeTait75]

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/banner2%283%29.jpg

:lol

You posted this twice? That's mighty white of you. :tu

[Killakobe81]

All jokes aside why put up last year's division banner?! I bet Lebron would of never agreed to that if he had a say ..

[JoeTait75]

All jokes aside why put up last year's division banner?! I bet Lebron would of never agreed to that if he had a say ..

Well LeBron isn't the Cavaliers, so he doesn't get a say on this one.

[Killakobe81]

You posted this twice? That's mighty white of you. :tu

Hey joe was mr. tait a great announcer in his younger days?
Dont take this wrong ...even the GOAT chick Hearn was tuff to listen to in his last days but we loved him ...I heard a clip of him announcing a spectatular Lebron play and he sounded like johnny most on his last legs ...like maybe he was bored cuz Lebron is great most nights ...

i bet he is better than the TV guys those ...

just your thoughts never heard him announce a full game ...

[Killakobe81]

Well LeBron isn't the Cavaliers, so he doesn't get a say on this one.

not being a smart ass i would of put best record in NBA if i was going to put up anything ...but it's cool just messing but please answer the Tait question cuz if Lebron stays you guys deserve better than the TV guys you have But if Tait is normally good you could mute tv and listen to TAit

i did that with chick A LOT RIP ...

[JoeTait75]

Hey joe was mr. tait a great announcer in his younger days?
Dont take this wrong ...even the GOAT chick Hearn was tuff to listen to in his last days but we loved him ...I heard a clip of him announcing a spectatular Lebron play and he sounded like johnny most on his last legs ...like maybe he was bored cuz Lebron is great most nights ...

i bet he is better than the TV guys those ...

just your thoughts never heard him announce a full game ...

Watch my sig. That's Joe Tait at 52 or so. Pretty much in his prime.

Chick was the man. Impartial, too: he appreciated greatness in all uniforms. Chick did have the luxury of calling 60-win teams, though. Joe Tait has called some awful basketball over the years. And he's always done it solo. No Stu Lantz's, w/all due respect.

[Killakobe81]

Watch my sig. That's Joe Tait at 52 or so. Pretty much in his prime.

Chick was the man. Impartial, too: he appreciated greatness in all uniforms. Chick did have the luxury of calling 60-win teams, though. Joe Tait has called some awful basketball over the years. And he's always done it solo. No Stu Lantz's, w/all due respect.

I hear you and glad you appreciate chick (and Joe) I hope he makes it to see the Cavs win one which they will do as long as the FO doesnt screw it up ...

When you lose a great announcer the games are not the same ...I used to like Stu with chick (the chick n stu shirts in La were classic) but without him Stu is just mehhhh

Chick was fair. even though he loved the Lakers he ripped them and spread love some of his calls of Dr.J's dunks on the Lakers were all-time classics

Chick: Here comes the Doctor ...ROCK THE BABY TO SLEEP!"

Never have a i heard a better call when my team was getting their ass handed to them ....most guys (announcers)today would of bemoaned the TO

One of Doc's signature moments and they Play the opposing announcer ALMOST everytime!!! CHICK was the best ...

[gaKNOW!blee]

maybe off topic, maybe not....but Lebron has 9 first quarter assists :wow

[kingmalaki]

But even Wade who up until last season didn't shoot many three pointers at all has not shot 50% from the field for an entire season, much less his career. He's never come close to sniffing 54% from the field.

This is true. However Wade has hit 49% three times, and one of those was a season when he took 278 3-pointers. MJ was bigger than Wade, faster, more athletic and had a better midrange game. He also was much better off the ball and had a higher bball IQ. So I don't see why he couldn't get 50%. A worse player is right there.

Additionally, Monta Ellis shot 53% in 07/08, when he dropped 20 a night. Tony Parker shot 55% in 05/06. He has also broke 50% in 2 other seasons. Yet MJ can't sniff 54%? Maggette is shooting 52% this season. The current rules benefit guards that can attack the basket.

And as far as shooting over bigger and taller defenders, yeah you have to shoot over taller wings but the bigs today are worse defensively. The bigs today don't stack up to the ones in MJ's era (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, Mutombo, Eaton, etc). And you could commit hard fouls then, and defenders could camp out in the paint and wait for you, unlike today.

[MiamiHeat]

In MJ's era :

- No defensive 3-second violation,
- no hand checks,
- no flagrant fouls,
and more.

all of that during MJ's era and he still dominated

players today get open lanes for layups and dunks because of the defensive 3 second.

imagine MJ playing today with ticky tack fouls and flagrant fouls.
oh boy

[kingmalaki]

You know what gets me about this is you never heard anyone take away anything from Magics 5 championships because Worthy and Jabbar won the MVP in those runs. Nobody has said KG never won a title not being the go to guy. Bird wasnt the MVP on all his titles. It's all about the Kobe hate/obsession and nothing more.

MVP's are subjective opinions and nothing more. The very same media personal that posters bash about putting fueling the MJ/Kobe/LBJ debates are the very same who vote for the MVP's to begin with.

...and if you are going to make some idiotic comment on how Kobe was just another player of the 15 on those 3 peat years then save your breath for Miami/chris/harlem.

It's not quite the same. When Magic won his titles, he was considered the best player on the team for the majority of them. Kareem won the league MVP in 79/80, but Magic sealed the title with arguably the best closing game ever, while Kareem sat. No other Laker finished higher than Magic in MVP voting in any of the other 4 championships. Actually, for the last 3 titles he finished 2nd, 1st and 3rd in MVP voting. He was arguably the games best player.

The same goes for Bird (#2, #1, #1) during his 3 titles. The same goes for Jordan (#1, #1, #3, #1, #2, #1) during his 6 titles. The same goes for Hakeem (#1, #5) during his two titles. They were all arguably the games best player.

You can't exactly say the same for Kobe. Shaq finished 1st, 3rd and 3rd in MVP voting during the 3-peat. Jason Kidd finished higher than Kobe every year. T-Mac finished higher than Kobe in 2 of those 3 years. In other words, one player was clearly in the discussion for best player in the league (Shaq, similar to Magic), and the other (Kobe) wasn't. I know folks like to "misremember" when it comes to the 3-peat teams, but Kobe was never considered the games best player during any of those titles, and Shaq always was (the argument was basically between him and Duncan). Compare that to last season, where Kobe finished #2 in MVP voting and is not doube arguably the best player in the league.

[kingmalaki]

Odom is probably a much valuable piece than Mo Williams...if he gets his head in the game. The problem with Odom is not his talent but rather his mental approach on a nightly basis. He was good but not second option good. And Im not even going to go in lengths proving how aweful Kobe's cast were for the first couple of years post Shaq.

Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker,Devean Geroge,Sasha Vujacic Brian Cook ?Their third best player before was Chris Mihm who had a season ending injury and never recovered. Those players are night and day worst than Varejao, Delonte West, Damon Jones, Devin Brown,Joe Smith,Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Bobbie Gibson,Wally Sczerbiak and Ben Wallace. Ferry has always surrounded Lebron with a good mix of players that displays a propensity to play defense and shoot the lights out.



Good thing you mentioned Caron Butler. Had LA kept him instead of sending the guy to Washington for Kwame Brown, he would've elevated his game and status as an All-Star playing next to Kobe. People give Kobe such a hard time for his 04-05 season but also fail to realize that, Kobe missed 16 games, Lamar missed 18 games and the coach left midpoint of the season.

Odom actually played great in the two series against Phoenix (19, 11, 5 on 50%, then 19, 13 and 2 on 48%....solid defense too). Much better than any other Cav player played last year in the Orlando series. LA still lost, right (blown 3-1 lead, lost 4-1)? And Kobe didn't play better than Lebron did (against Orlando) in either one of those series. Kobe has never had any playoff success on a team that wasn't loaded. I don't see him taking any Cav team further than LeBron did.

[Killakobe81]

In MJ's era :

- No defensive 3-second violation,
- no hand checks,
- no flagrant fouls,
and more.

all of that during MJ's era and he still dominated

players today get open lanes for layups and dunks because of the defensive 3 second.

imagine MJ playing today with ticky tack fouls and flagrant fouls.
oh boy

MJ is the GOAT BUT ...
Imagine an NBA WHEN MJ was the not the best athlete even in his prime?
Lebron is THAT good of an athlete with a similar skill level ...
Fundamentals? MJ has him beat ...but natural gifts Lebron has that over MJ

[nevetslc]

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kPH0ZxIXBA8/SqkYJor8qoI/AAAAAAAABoM/5gHTnSsx4rM/s400/KOBE+UMAD.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/06/15/alg_kobe-trophies.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff148/Quatsch1/u_mad.gif
http://telepromptedanthems.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/u-mad1.jpg

[RsxPiimp]

Odom actually played great in the two series against Phoenix (19, 11, 5 on 50%, then 19, 13 and 2 on 48%....solid defense too). .
Like I said, Odom is probably a much valuable player than Mo, if he gets his head straight, problem with Lamar is his inconsistency has always impeded his real potential thats why Lamar never made the All Star team while Mo got his invitation last year. Also lets not sneeze at Mo. He was pretty steady last year in the playoffs before facing Orlando.



Much better than any other Cav player played last year in the Orlando series. LA still lost, right (blown 3-1 lead, lost 4-1)?

I dont see your point here. You singled out Lamar Odom's performance and completely disregarded the rest? Did you know who else showed up in that series besides Kobe and Lamar? Guess not. LA was a horrible team deemed to lose against a #1 seed. Cleveland on the other hand was the overall owner of the best record the regular season that was emphatically embarassed by a lower seed. NO comparison there if we're going with your example.


Again, I hate to reiterate this, but before Gasol was sent packing to LA, Kobe's teammates were far worst than Lebrons, due to the undisputable fact that he was surrounded by players who just does'nt have any natural instinct to play defense.


Vladimir Radmanovic
Sasha Vujacic
Kwame Brown
Luke Walton
Smush Parker
Brian Cook

Are not starting materials. But they all logged heavy minutes in Phil Jackson's rotation. The brightest spot was Ronny Turiaf who was a foul prone, and Maurice Evans who never found his jumper in LA.



Cleveland always ranked between Top 3-10 In defensive ratings and opponent points per game for even at their worst. The Lakers ranked 15th and 25th in 05 and 06, Its no secret Ferry always surrounds Lebron with defensive minded players thus you see Lebron and the Cavs having much more success in their Conference.

[kingmalaki]

Like I said, Odom is probably a much valuable player than Mo, if he gets his head straight, problem with Lamar is his inconsistency has always impeded his real potential thats why Lamar never made the All Star team while Mo got his invitation last year. Also lets not sneeze at Mo. He was pretty steady last year in the playoffs before facing Orlando.




I dont see your point here. You singled out Lamar Odom's performance and completely disregarded the rest? Did you know who else showed up in that series besides Kobe and Lamar? Guess not. LA was a horrible team deemed to lose against a #1 seed. Cleveland on the other hand was the overall owner of the best record the regular season that was emphatically embarassed by a lower seed. NO comparison there if we're going with your example.


Again, I hate to reiterate this, but before Gasol was sent packing to LA, Kobe's teammates were far worst than Lebrons, due to the undisputable fact that he was surrounded by players who just does'nt have any natural instinct to play defense.


Vladimir Radmanovic
Sasha Vujacic
Kwame Brown
Luke Walton
Smush Parker
Brian Cook

Are not starting materials. But they all logged heavy minutes in Phil Jackson's rotation. The brightest spot was Ronny Turiaf who was a foul prone, and Maurice Evans who never found his jumper in LA.



Cleveland always ranked between Top 3-10 In defensive ratings and opponent points per game for even at their worst. The Lakers ranked 15th and 25th in 05 and 06, Its no secret Ferry always surrounds Lebron with defensive minded players thus you see Lebron and the Cavs having much more success in their Conference.

I agree with everything you said. What I was trying to get at is that no one wins with poor teammates or when their supporting cast doesn't show up. It's not about a who had it worse than who situation. LeBron's past few teams have been better than the garbage Kobe had once Shaq left, but in every title winning season Kobe has been on a team with top notch supporting talent. LeBron never has. I don't see Kobe taking any of those Cavs teams any further. I could understand if he had ever led a team devoid of talent deep into the postseason but he hasn't. Most haven't.

[TheMACHINE]

I agree with everything you said. What I was trying to get at is that no one wins with poor teammates or when their supporting cast doesn't show up. It's not about a who had it worse than who situation. LeBron's past few teams have been better than the garbage Kobe had once Shaq left, but in every title winning season Kobe has been on a team with top notch supporting talent. LeBron never has. I don't see Kobe taking any of those Cavs teams any further. I could understand if he had ever led a team devoid of talent deep into the postseason but he hasn't. Most haven't.

so are you saying that Lebron = Kobe?

[Metheny]

In MJ's era :

- No defensive 3-second violation,
- no hand checks,
- no flagrant fouls,
and more.

all of that during MJ's era and he still dominated

players today get open lanes for layups and dunks because of the defensive 3 second.

imagine MJ playing today with ticky tack fouls and flagrant fouls.
oh boy



:toast

[ChrisRichards]

MiamiHeat is owning this thread with facts:toast

[Metheny]

Kobe's playing in a easier era with far less results wierd eh?

[Killakobe81]

MiamiHeat is owning this thread with facts:toast

YOu agreeing with MIAMI HEAT BIG shock!!!

[TheMACHINE]

Kobe's playing in a easier era with far less results wierd eh?

MJ waiting on Magic, Bird and Isiah to retire to start winning eh?

But since rings dont matter. Lebron > MJ. The stats say it all.

[TheMACHINE]

YOu agreeing with MIAMI HEAT BIG shock!!!

If a=b, then a agrees with b

[ohmwrecker]

The only advantage Kobe has over LeBron is experience and knowledge of what it takes to win it all. Also, at this point, in a big game, with everything on the line, I would still want Kobe to take that shot. However, that gap is closing fast.

[DazedAndConfused]

Lebron is in his prime right now. Kobe is on the tail end of his.

I would expect Lebron to be the better player at this point in their respective careers. Time will tell if Lebron will develop the skill necessary to be dominant once his athleticism starts to fade. My instincts tell me he won't, his game relies too much on his freakish athleticism. Once his body starts to break down it's all over for him. He needs to win his championships NOW if he ever hopes to catch MJ or Kobe. He will not be leading teams to championships in his 30's like Kobe and MJ have.

[MiamiHeat]

If a=b, then a agrees with b

If z = you, then you are a dumb fucking idiot.

Guess you missed the info. Kori already said I am not Chrisrichards

[Metheny]

MJ waiting on Magic, Bird and Isiah to retire to start winning eh?

But since rings dont matter. Lebron > MJ. The stats say it all.


If i recall he beat magic to get his first ring and dropped 63 on bird when he had no one on his team and was agaisnt the #1 defense in the league and he beat isiah on his way to his first championship which he did win 5 more times and was 6 for 6 in the finals and 6 for 6 mvp in finals


and if you look at stats MJ>Lebron


hmm?

[jacobdrj]

In MJ's era :

- No defensive 3-second violation,
- no hand checks,
- no flagrant fouls,
and more.

all of that during MJ's era and he still dominated

players today get open lanes for layups and dunks because of the defensive 3 second.

imagine MJ playing today with ticky tack fouls and flagrant fouls.
oh boy
Most dominating players tend to make the NBA make the game harder: Wilt/Kareem forced the key to be enlarged, Shaq had the dotted line and added. Only 2 players, to my recollection, have had the game been made easier for them: MJ and Nash. With MJ it was the CREATION of the flagrant foul and the hand-checking rule and Nash was tightening of hand touching and the addition of Zone...

[jacobdrj]

I still think people are forgetting the P-Jax factor. Neither Jordan nor Kobe were able to do jack without him, and the 1 season P-Jax doesn't coach Kobe they suck, while the very next season with the very same team they almost beat the higher-seeded Suns.

[MiamiHeat]

Most dominating players tend to make the NBA make the game harder: Wilt/Kareem forced the key to be enlarged, Shaq had the dotted line and added. Only 2 players, to my recollection, have had the game been made easier for them: MJ and Nash. With MJ it was the CREATION of the flagrant foul and the hand-checking rule and Nash was tightening of hand touching and the addition of Zone...

Except for the fact that the the ban on hand-checking was instated in 1994. MJ was already 10 years into his career, already had a 3peat, and all those magical seasons.

MJ only played 3 seasons as a Bull with no hand-checking, when he was in mid-30's.

[TheMACHINE]

If i recall he beat magic to get his first ring and dropped 63 on bird when he had no one on his team and was agaisnt the #1 defense in the league and he beat isiah on his way to his first championship which he did win 5 more times and was 6 for 6 in the finals and 6 for 6 mvp in finals


and if you look at stats MJ>Lebron


hmm?

show me the stats.

[TheMACHINE]

If z = you, then you are a dumb fucking idiot.


what an idiot. :lmao

[TheGreatest23]

I still think people are forgetting the P-Jax factor. Neither Jordan nor Kobe were able to do jack without him, and the 1 season P-Jax doesn't coach Kobe they suck, while the very next season with the very same team they almost beat the higher-seeded Suns.

Check this. When I win my ring this year. I get to say I won without Phil Jackson. It'll furthur confirm me as the Greatest.

Bow down to The King, bitches.

[MiamiHeat]

^^^^^^^^^^^ Laker fan posing as a cavs fan

easy to tell

[TheGreatest23]

^^^^^^^^^^^ Laker fan posing as a cavs fan

easy to tell

This cat has a nice afro.

Bow down to The King, bitches.

[21_Blessings]

Dont take this wrong ...even the GOAT chick Hearn was tuff to listen to in his last days but we loved him .....

What the fuck are you talking about?

[Killakobe81]

Did you listen to Chick HEARN the GOAT announcers 21?
As great as he was the last few season it was tough to listen because he kept mixin up players and he "lost a step" mentallly ...most Laker fans knew he was getting old and excused it ...but for me it was sad. Cuz he had a such a sharp mind and wit ...and I used to listen to Laker games on the radio when they played at home because ack in the day it was PPV to atch Lakers on "prime Ticket" ... it did not comewith "basic" cable

[JoeTait75]

^^^^^^^^^^^ Laker fan posing as a cavs fan

easy to tell

Either that or a Cavaliers fan who jumped on the bandwagon in '03. We have a few of those running around. :rolleyes

[21_Blessings]

Did you listen to Chick HEARN the GOAT announcers 21?
As great as he was the last few season it was tough to listen because he kept mixin up players and he "lost a step" mentallly ...most Laker fans knew he was getting old and excused it ...but for me it was sad. Cuz he had a such a sharp mind and wit ...and I used to listen to Laker games on the radio when they played at home because ack in the day it was PPV to atch Lakers on "prime Ticket" ... it did not comewith "basic" cable

Huh? Even at the end of the line Chick was still by far and away the best announcer in the business. Wasn't even close.

Again. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Killakobe81]

Huh? Even at the end of the line Chick was still by far and away the best announcer in the business. Wasn't even close.

Again. What the fuck are you talking about?

If you don't know what im talking about read my post again. I called him the GOAT ...TWICE!!!

Just saying it was sad to hear him confuse Horry and devean George that's all im saying and he was not as quick with his wit ...

why are youcoming at me when Im just stating an opinion with some facts in it?
If you watched KCAL or listened to him on 570 during the last couple seasons HE MADE MISTAKES on a semi-regular basis ...

HE still was a joy but it was like seeing your favorite grandparent "lose a step" ...do you NOT love your aging grandpa? Does him missing or slurring words make you enjoy his stories of the "old days" any less? But it is a little sad to see a great man diminished ...

THAT IS WHAT THE FUCK I MEANT!!! GOt it?

[21_Blessings]

If you watched KCAL or listened to him on 570 during the last couple seasons HE MADE MISTAKES on a semi-regular basis ...

All announcers make MISTAKES on a semi-regular basis. You're completely overblowing what you are saying.

HE still was a joy but it was like seeing your favorite grandparent "lose a step" ...do you NOT love your aging grandpa? Does him missing or slurring words make you enjoy his stories of the "old days" any less? But it is a little sad to see a great man diminished ...


Again, what the fuck are you talking about? It wasn't like that at all. You're just remembering it wrong or talking out of your ass.

[Killakobe81]

All announcers make MISTAKES on a semi-regular basis. You're completely overblowing what you are saying.


Again, what the fuck are you talking about? It wasn't like that at all. You're just remembering it wrong or talking out of your ass.

OK whatever you say I have been watching and LISTENING to the Lakers since MAY of 1980 but I AM talking through my ass?

I bought a chick hearn commerative championship ring on EBAY but i dont know chick Hearn?

i listened to Chick broadcast UNLV games on KCAL in the 80's ...

i almost chose chick Hearn over killakobe81 as my username ...

YOU The one TALKING out your ass ..

[21_Blessings]

OK whatever you say I have been watching and LISTENING to the Lakers since MAY of 1980 but I AM talking through my ass?

Yes you are talking out of your ass and I don't believe you're over 30.


I bought a chick hearn commerative championship ring on EBAY but i dont know chick Hearn?

i listened to Chick broadcast UNLV games on KCAL in the 80's ...

i almost chose chick Hearn over killakobe81 as my username ...

YOU The one TALKING out your ass ..

Yeah there is no fucking way you're over 30.

[Killakobe81]

I was born in May of 1975 graduated from HS in 1992 in the SF valley one year early due to AP classes ...

I went to the Forum in 1982 I have a autographed polaroid (remember those) with Magic and one with Mark Landsberger (do you know who that is 21?)that they gave as a promotion ...

dont question my laker fandom I bleed purple and gold ...

[Donkeybong]

chick did mentally trip up every now and then towards the end of his career while commentating, however, he was still head and shoulders the best announcer compared to anyone else at the time. Chick was the greatest sports commentator of all time.

[Killakobe81]

look ay my sig picture i chose one that represented the franchise ..i did not start in thw shaq era ..my roots run deeper than that.
I watched the sixers sweep our ass, in 1983
The heartbreak of 1984 when we let an inferior Celts team beat us ...
The Sampson shot in '86
MJ destroy us for title won
and the Shaq sweeps of the late 90's

[Double-Up]

LOL lakerfan arguing with lakerfan...stupid fucks.

[Killakobe81]

chick did mentally trip up every now and then towards the end of his career while commentating, however, he was still head and shoulders the best announcer compared to anyone else at the time. Chick was the greatest sports commentator of all time.

agreed donkeybong and agreed.

He was confusing our own players!! But even so still the GOAT i said that 21 just was being defensive ...

BUT i admire you for defending chick ...just dont get why you didnt understand what i was saying IF YOU REALLY listened to chick ..

Chick R.I.P ...

[Donkeybong]

LOL lakerfan arguing with lakerfan...stupid fucks.

Unlike dumb pieces of shit like yourself, most of us involve ourselves in discourse to seek knowledge and good debate, no matter what fanbase the other person is from. Your tired old act of trolling, while sticking 14 inch dildos up your ass doesn't interest the rest of us.

[Killakobe81]

I did argue but gave credit for him defending chick ..it was just a misunderstanding ...nothing wrong with a good dialogue ...
unlike some of you sychophants that take time to hold each other's "oden's" while singing "koombyyah" we love Manu, or Brooks or Lebron!!!

[kingmalaki]

so are you saying that Lebron = Kobe?

I'm saying it makes no sense to say Kobe is better because of titles because I don't see Kobe winning a title on any of LeBron's teams, or taking them any further than LeBron did. This isn't one of those situations where a dude never had any success playing with no help. LeBron has clearly had less talented teams. He has been to the Finals once and the ECF twice. That's pretty good to me considering the supporting casts he has played with.

[Killakobe81]

I'm saying it makes no sense to say Kobe is better because of titles because I don't see Kobe winning a title on any of LeBron's teams, or taking them any further than LeBron did. This isn't one of those situations where a dude never had any success playing with no help. LeBron has clearly had less talented teams. He has been to the Finals once and the ECF twice. That's pretty good to me considering the supporting casts he has played with.

what makes no sense is crowning someone the best BEFORE they win the ultimate game ...

For example to me shaq could not be considered on duncan's level until he won the following year ...

Shaq had stats and the media sucking him off ...but he keptgetting swept whenit mattered most ...

[Metheny]

Then he made you happy by giving your main man 3 rings and winning the mvp finals trophies I Don't know why you lakers fan don't respect the diesel more then kobe

[kingmalaki]

what makes no sense is crowning someone the best BEFORE they win the ultimate game ...

For example to me shaq could not be considered on duncan's level until he won the following year ...

Shaq had stats and the media sucking him off ...but he keptgetting swept whenit mattered most ...

Jordan was considered the best before he won a title. Some people can recognize that you can be the best, and have crap teammates. This is basketball, not golf.

[21_Blessings]

Jordan was considered the best before he won a title. .

No he wasn't.

[JoeTait75]

No he wasn't.

He was certainly in the conversation.

[kingmalaki]

No he wasn't.

Actually he was. He leaped Larry and Magic when he became a difference maker on both sides of the court, something neither of them ever were. By 87/88 he became the only player since Wilt to top 3,000 points in a season (37 pt avg) and the first person to ever get 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same year. MVP and DPOY the next season.

[21_Blessings]

Actually he was. He leaped Larry and Magic when he became a difference maker on both sides of the court, something neither of them ever were. By 87/88 he became the only player since Wilt to top 3,000 points in a season (37 pt avg) and the first person to ever get 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same year. MVP and DPOY the next season.

Wrong again.

And Pippen remains a better perimeter defender than Jordan ever was and never receives any credit.

[MiamiHeat]

Actually he was. He leaped Larry and Magic when he became a difference maker on both sides of the court, something neither of them ever were. By 87/88 he became the only player since Wilt to top 3,000 points in a season (37 pt avg) and the first person to ever get 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same year. MVP and DPOY the next season.

100% accurate. Jordan was seen as the best in the NBA before he ever won a title. Heck, even in his 2nd year, Bird was already claiming MJ's greatness. It was apparent to see from the get-go that Michael Jordan was a very, very special player.

Also, about defense, Jordan is arguably the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history. He could guard any PG or SG and even SF's

[kingmalaki]

Wrong again.

And Pippen remains a better perimeter defender than Jordan ever was and never receives any credit.

Right again!!!

[Killakobe81]

100% accurate. Jordan was seen as the best in the NBA before he ever won a title. Heck, even in his 2nd year, Bird was already claiming MJ's greatness. It was apparent to see from the get-go that Michael Jordan was a very, very special player.

Also, about defense, Jordan is arguably the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history. He could guard any PG or SG and even SF's

Nope.
Pippen was the better defender. and i agree he was in the conversation but MJ himself said in Barcelona in 92 that he was driven to surpass BIrd and Magic's titles because they teased him for only having 1

Lebron is THE force of nature in the sport. HIS TIME WILL come.
Why the insistentce on jumping the gun?
Once he gets a title his geatness will be unquestioned for now it is by some ...deal with it.

[jacobdrj]

Except for the fact that the the ban on hand-checking was instated in 1994. MJ was already 10 years into his career, already had a 3peat, and all those magical seasons.

MJ only played 3 seasons as a Bull with no hand-checking, when he was in mid-30's.

How long was Wilt in the NBA before they enlarged the key?

[jacobdrj]

Check this. When I win my ring this year. I get to say I won without Phil Jackson. It'll furthur confirm me as the Greatest.

Bow down to The King, bitches.

If LeBron can win despite coach Brown, yeah, that is a pretty big deal. I'd be impressed.

[MiamiHeat]

Looks like the Lakers are exactly what we thought

really good even without kobe.

If you add LeBron, they would challenge the Jordan Bulls record of 72-10.

[TheGreatest23]

Looks like the Lakers are exactly what we thought

really good even without kobe.

If you add LeBron, they would challenge the Jordan Bulls record of 72-10.

Sons, I'd go 83-0.

Bow down to the king, bitches.

[stretch]

Wrong again.

And Pippen remains a better perimeter defender than Jordan ever was and never receives any credit.

you're a moron

Jordan was already widely accepted as being the best in the NBA. pretty much only magic and bird lovers, or jordan haters thought otherwise. in fact, quite a few people already had been even talking about him being the best player the league has ever seen, and he just needed a few titles to cement his legacy. then after his first three-peat, he was widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time already.

[TheGreatest23]

you're a moron

Jordan was already widely accepted as being the best in the NBA. pretty much only magic and bird lovers, or jordan haters thought otherwise. in fact, quite a few people already had been even talking about him being the best player the league has ever seen, and he just needed a few titles to cement his legacy. then after his first three-peat, he was widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time already.

Who cares about Jordan? I'm already better then him, and you mother fuckers know it.

[Killakobe81]

Looks like the Lakers are exactly what we thought

really good even without kobe.

If you add LeBron, they would challenge the Jordan Bulls record of 72-10.

And THEN get eliminated in the ECF ...if history repeats itself!! LOL

[MiamiHeat]

And THEN get eliminated in the ECF ...if history repeats itself!! LOL

son, LeBron has never played with the talent like Kobe has

Shaq in his prime
Gasol/Odom/etc...

LeBron would own the nba if he had the teams kobe has been on.

[MiamiHeat]

you're a moron

Jordan was already widely accepted as being the best in the NBA. pretty much only magic and bird lovers, or jordan haters thought otherwise. in fact, quite a few people already had been even talking about him being the best player the league has ever seen, and he just needed a few titles to cement his legacy. then after his first three-peat, he was widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time already.

+100

Jordan won a Defensive player of the year before Pippen ever started for an NBA team. Pippen never won one.

fact is, MJ tutored Pippen and groomed him to be his sidekick from DAY ONE of Pippen being drafted. MJ taught him both sides of the ball, so Pippen learned to be good,

but let's not get confused here.. Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history.

[TheMACHINE]

son, LeBron has never played with the talent like Kobe has

Shaq in his prime
Gasol/Odom/etc...

LeBron would own the nba if he had the teams kobe has been on.

and then when Lebron wins with talent like Kobes teamates, we can all say that lebron is just like Kobe...cant win shit without great teamates right?

[MiamiHeat]

and then when Lebron wins with talent like Kobes teamates, we can all say that lebron is just like Kobe...cant win shit without great teamates right?

every situation is different, we got to see it play out before we can judge.

kobe's book has already been written. 14 years in the nba, he's gonna shut it down within 4 years, he won't be able to take anymore and his knees will go out.

1 mvp in 14 seasons
1 finals mvp
4 rings
2 scoring titles

he's good, but not all time great type of good. he's not in the top tier, i'd say he is in 3rd tier players.

top tier is MJ and Wilt
2nd tier is guys like magic, bird, kareem, shaq, duncan, etc
3rd tier - this is where kobe's at.

[Sportcamper]

Even with Shaq by his side…It is doubtful that Le Bron will win an NBA title until he joins the Lakers…This could happen…

[Killakobe81]

LOL this thread ..."There is a thin line ...between love & hate"

Guys comparing Wilt that never ever seen him play ...ROFL

Bird better than Kobe CROFL ...

The Lebron has never played with similar talent level doesnt mean crap. MJ NEVER played with Kareem, Worthy etc or MchAle DJ and Parish yet he still won 6 ...

When Lebron wins at least two titles he will be on the same tier otherwise he is a regular season wonder. Even one title is not enough Pierce,Billups and Wade have those.

BUT when he does i will be driving the Lebron bus he may end up the GOAT (since 1980) ...

[j.dizzle]

Sons, in the past few years Bron/Cavs are like the NBA version of Peyton Manning/Colts...Him & his teammates have great regular seasons & look like its their year & then get stomped out. He actually has good teammates but they just fold under pressure in big playoff games. Lebron plays well though but too many 1 on 5 games, we'll see how shaq responds.

[MiamiHeat]

Manning has never had an elite defense, or even close to it.

[mindcrime]

every situation is different, we got to see it play out before we can judge.

kobe's book has already been written. 14 years in the nba, he's gonna shut it down within 4 years, he won't be able to take anymore and his knees will go out.

1 mvp in 14 seasons
1 finals mvp
4 rings
2 scoring titles

he's good, but not all time great type of good. he's not in the top tier, i'd say he is in 3rd tier players.

top tier is MJ and Wilt
2nd tier is guys like magic, bird, kareem, shaq, duncan, etc
3rd tier - this is where kobe's at.


As a Kings fan I don't like Bryant but seriously? 3rd tier?

[Killakobe81]

As a Kings fan I don't like Bryant but seriously? 3rd tier?

The intelligence level of this thread alone has set back western civilization 200 years ...