Reggie Miller : "LeBron James would make the Lakers a better team than Kobe does"

[MiamiHeat]

Reggie Miller: "LeBron James would make the lakers a better team than Kobe Bryant does"

FunqI4D3qSI

:toast

LeBron's taking over the NBA is coming full circle. Even Reggie has no choice but to 'keep it real'

[BRHornet45]

Kobe doesn't make ANY team better. he makes HIMSELF better by jacking up 25 shots every game.

100% truth in this. Lebron would easily make the Lakers twice the team Kobe could ever dream of making them.

[Ghazi]

On a similar note, if you swap Kobe with Paul the Hornets would actually become relevant.

[RsxPiimp]

Kobe thread motherfucker.



Using the same argument. Would a prime Michael Jordan make this Cavs a better team?


Without Pippen, no he would'nt. So Lebron>Jordan?



Think about it.

[Chillen]

I have to agree with Reggie Miller. The Jordan comparisons that Kobe gets are ridiculous, Kobe can score the ball no doubt and he has won championships for that, but he takes tons and tons of shots a game to get them. James is the closest thing the NBA has to a Michael Jordan, they both are very similar, I always saw more Pippen in Kobe than Jordan. LeBron would make the Lakers unbeatable.

[RsxPiimp]

I have to agree with Reggie Miller. The Jordan comparisons that Kobe gets are ridiculous, Kobe can score the ball no doubt and he has won championships for that, but he takes tons and tons of shots a game to get them. James is the closest thing the NBA has to a Michael Jordan, they both are very similar, I always saw more Pippen in Kobe than Jordan. LeBron would make the Lakers unbeatable.

I agree with Miller, but again, Jordan fanatics should answer this question.



Using the same logic. Would a prime Michael Jordan make this Cavs a better team?



Without Pippen, no he would'nt. So Lebron>Jordan?



Think about it

[Kamnik]

Why would this statement be anything special?

Kobe is a great player but it is pretty simple: Lebron>Kobe

[BRHornet45]

there are AT LEAST 10 ACTIVE players in the NBA who are better basketball players than Kobe. can we please move on people ?

[admiralsnackbar]

On a similar note, if you swap Kobe with Paul the Hornets would actually become relevant.

Please.

NOLA's current roster is eerily similar to the year Kobe missed the playoffs.

[024]

the sky is blue.

[Ghazi]

Please.

NOLA's current roster is eerily similar to the year Kobe missed the playoffs.

Okafor/West/Songaila frontline, good rookies in Thornton/Collison... decent shooters in Posey/Peja... please.

Hornets have talent, they just lack the superstar.

[TheManFromAcme]

Do it Mitch.....:rolleyes

Hey, who knows. It's not that far fetched that Lebron could be a Laker one day.

[Double-Up]

No surprises here.

[DxB]

Okafor/West/Songaila frontline, good rookies in Thornton/Collison... decent shooters in Posey/Peja... please.

Hornets have talent, they just lack the superstar.

No they really don't have talent and they DO have a superstar... you really are borderline retarded son. If they had talent AND the best PG in the game (or DWill), they'd be a pretty fucking good team. Unfortunately, having a great PG with no one to pass it to isn't as beneficial...

On the other hand, how bout we put Dirk in the hornets for Cp3... Can you say lottery?

[Ghazi]

They're making the lottery with CP3 anyway, what's your point?

[DxB]

That you didn't have a point... Coz they DO have a superstar. Ya dig?

[pauls931]

I think what people are overlooking is sure there are players better than kobe, but what about the fit with the lakers? LA has enough firepower that an overwhelming talent would throw the system out of whack now. LBJ would take too much from Gasol, Bynum, Odom etc.

[RsxPiimp]

i think what people are overlooking is sure there are players better than kobe.

name two

[pauls931]

name two

In my mind LBJ, Tim Duncan, Deron Williams, Pau Gasol.

[RsxPiimp]

In my mind LBJ, Tim Duncan, Deron Williams, Pau Gasol.

THANKS FOR THE MORNING LAUGH BUDDY:lol

[pauls931]

THANKS FOR THE MORNING LAUGH BUDDY:lol

Sorry bad cut and paste, I accidentally included Gasol. :)

[Pelicans78]

Okafor/West/Songaila frontline, good rookies in Thornton/Collison... decent shooters in Posey/Peja... please.

Hornets have talent, they just lack the superstar.

You kidding me? Our frontline is undersized and none of them dominate the paint.

Thornton and Collison are playing well, but Byron Scott didn't play them the first 10 games of the season before his ass got fired.

Peja and Posey have been shooting like crap this season.

[Pelicans78]

They're making the lottery with CP3 anyway, what's your point?

You know if the playoffs started today, they would be in.

[fevertrees]

DOWNTOWN Devin Brown would make the team better as well.

[Ghazi]

You know if the playoffs started today, they would be in.

Hornets will finish in 11th place, book it. 44 wins at best.

[dickface]

I'll still take Kobe.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe's been playing hurt and has teammates that have been hurt.
Has lebron played better lately...for sure and he's the #1 right now. Still, when Kobe was healthier earlier in the year, he was hands down the best and all of the pundits stated as such. People continue to disparage the greatest player since Magic.

[fevertrees]

Kobe's been playing hurt and has teammates that have been hurt.
Has lebron played better lately...for sure and he's the #1 right now. Still, when Kobe was healthier earlier in the year, he was hands down the best and all of the pundits stated as such. People continue to disparage the greatest player since Magic.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Allanon]

There is an All Kobe, All the time thread here if you guys missed it:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144287&page=19

[Donkeybong]

People tend to forget it takes more than just being able to pass really well to be a good team leader. Kobe > Lebron as a leader. Kobe has taken soft, weak-minded players and maximized their talent. Scrubs on other teams become key players on the Lakers because of Kobe's influence. He made names like Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, and even SMUSH PARKER relevant. I'd still take Kobe without hesitation.

[hater]

but of course. in other news sky is blue :rolleyes

Only delusional lakerfans would disagree

[hater]

People tend to forget it takes more than just being able to pass really well to be a good team leader. Kobe > Lebron as a leader. Kobe has taken soft, weak-minded players and maximized their talent. Scrubs on other teams become key players on the Lakers because of Kobe's influence. He made names like Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, and even SMUSH PARKER relevant. I'd still take Kobe without hesitation.

:lmao

he made Trevor Ariza what he is??? :lol

and what brilliant careers are Smush Parker and Shannon Brown having

[Donkeybong]

:lmao

he made Trevor Ariza what he is??? :lol

and what brilliant careers are Smush Parker and Shannon Brown having

the point is he made them relevant, when those guys were struggling to find a place in the NBA.

[Pelicans78]

Hornets will finish in 11th place, book it. 44 wins at best.

Prove it.

[hater]

the point is he made them relevant, when those guys were struggling to find a place in the NBA.

how are Smush and Brown relevant? Smush is a scrub and Brown an average NBA player

[Donkeybong]

how are Smush and Brown relevant? Smush is a scrub and Brown an average NBA player

Maybe you don't understand my point. When scrubs play with Kobe, Kobe elevates their play. When they don't play with Kobe (leave the lakers), they revert back to being scrubs or maybe slightly better than they were before playing with Kobe.

[Donkeybong]

And you are right, brown is an average player. But you barely heard about him, if at all, when he was on the cavs or bobcats.

[Why So Serious]

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[JamStone]

how are Smush and Brown relevant? Smush is a scrub and Brown an average NBA player

The point is actually a valid one.

When Smush Parker played alongside Kobe, he was not very good, but at least a serviceable NBA player. Kobe is the reason Smush got a contract from the Heat. But since leaving the Lakers, Smush basically got dumped and can't get another NBA job. Before Shannon Brown got traded to the Lakers, he couldn't get any playing time on the other teams he was on. Now, playing alongside Kobe and practicing with Kobe every day, the once 15th man on the roster on bad teams is now a solid rotation team on a contender. The same goes for Trevor Ariza. With Kobe, a very good role player. Now not playing with Kobe and asked to do more individually, he's not very good.

The point made actually has quite a bit of merit.

[Double-Up]

Without a low post player Kobe has never done anything so of course if you give LeBron the same options he has this season he'd definantly elevate the team and probably wouldn't have choked on Garnett/Pierce cock like Kobe did either...what's new?

[Why So Serious]

Without a low post player Kobe has never done anything so of course if you give LeBron the same options he would have definantly beasted and wouldn't have choked on Garnett/Pierce cock like Kobe did. What's new?

:lmao:lmao

If i was famous i'd be banging kim kardashian, emanuelle chirqui, megan fox..

What ifs..

[Double-Up]

:lmao:lmao

If i was famous i'd be banging kim kardashian, emanuelle chirqui, megan fox..

What ifs..

No doubt.

[Truckules]

Maybe you don't understand my point. When scrubs play with Kobe, Kobe elevates their play. When they don't play with Kobe (leave the lakers), they revert back to being scrubs or maybe slightly better than they were before playing with Kobe.

Maybe it's not Kobe that elevates their play. Maybe it's Phil Jackson and the system.

[duhoh]

People continue to disparage the greatest Laker since Magic.

A lot more accurate.

At the end of the day though, Kobe's legacy is still solid.

LeBron will have a interesting career no doubt, but you're comparing someone with a history to someone without one.

[ElNono]

Why not have both Kobe AND Lebron?

The Lakers should re-aquire Javaris Critterton so they can offer him on a trade for Lebron... worked the last time...

[Baseline]

This is why even Reggie Miller, an LA guy and Laker fanatic, i.e. the last guy on Earth who would ever say something like this...can't deny that LeBron is a better player.

1A. LeBron leads by sharing the basketball with everybody on his team, regardless of how limited they are offensively.

1B. Bryant doesn't lead. Bryant does whatever he wants to do, which normally means jacking up tons of shots, and expects the other guys to be good despite what he's doing. And if they aren't good, he yells at them and demeans them, then goes to the press and cries for more "help."

2A. LeBron always has his teammates' back, and they respond by playing over their heads much of the time.

2B. As opposed to having his teammates' back, Bryant stabs them in the back. So his super-talented teammates often respond by playing below their capabilities.

3A. We all know how untalented Cleveland is apart from LeBron, yet they exceed expectations.

3B. We all know how talented the Lakers are, yet they do not always play up to expectations.

4A. LeBron truly elevates his teammates.

4B. Bryant truly alienates his teammates.

[mindcrime]

And you are right, brown is an average player. But you barely heard about him, if at all, when he was on the cavs or bobcats.

That probably has more to do with playing on a big market team like the Lakers than playing with Kobe. I see your point though.

[JamStone]

LeBron's a great player and he does help his teammates score, but I think it's exaggerated how he makes his teammates play over their heads. I think that's a misconception. Larry Hughes got worse playing next to LeBron. Last year, Mo Williams was basically the same player he was in Milwaukee. The two areas he improved were his three point shooting, which makes sense since defenses do focus on LeBron so much. So that's one. And his free throw shooting, which has next to nothing to do with LeBron. In pretty much every other area, Mo Williams was pretty much the same or got worse. Donyell Marshall got worse playing next to LeBron. Which teammates did LeBron really make better? Anderson Varejao maybe? But, he's only played with the Cavs so we don't know if he'd be as good without LeBron. Players that were actually good who joined the Cavs didn't really become better players playing alongside LeBron.

There's a difference between being an unselfish player who gets teammates easy baskets and being a the type of teammate that actually makes other teammates better players. It takes more than just getting assists. LeBron helps teammates score. That doesn't necessarily mean he's elevating their games.

I've seen Kobe actually coach his teammates on the court and on the bench discussing strategies and sets. I see LeBron on the bench dancing and clipping his fingernails. You can call Kobe an asshole and a jerk. That would be true. But, just because he doesn't get as many assists as LeBron, it doesn't mean he doesn't help his teammates become better players. I think Jordan Farmar actually has learned and grown as a player from Kobe. I even think Kobe's bashing of Andrew Bynum actually motivated him to work harder to become better. I think as much of a jerk as Kobe can be, you cannot deny his work ethic and determination and will to be great, and that in itself can motivate teammates to step up their games, their practice habits, their training. LeBron is everybody's best friend on his team who hooks them up with cool shoes and gear and Beats by Dre headphones. Kobe is the guy teammates might think is a jerk and may even fear, but they respect at least when it comes to how he works and prepares for basketball.

You can look at it as LeBron is a nice guy and gets more assists and Kobe is a jerk and will berate his teammate and doesn't get as many assists, so LeBron must be the better teammate and better leader. But I think you'd be naive to think so.

[TheMACHINE]

I think Lebron now is better then Kobe. i also think Lebron now is better than MJ.

[TheMACHINE]

This is why even Reggie Miller, an LA guy and Laker fanatic, i.e. the last guy on Earth who would ever say something like this...can't deny that LeBron is a better player.

1A. LeBron leads by sharing the basketball with everybody on his team, regardless of how limited they are offensively.

1B. Bryant doesn't lead. Bryant does whatever he wants to do, which normally means jacking up tons of shots, and expects the other guys to be good despite what he's doing. And if they aren't good, he yells at them and demeans them, then goes to the press and cries for more "help."

2A. LeBron always has his teammates' back, and they respond by playing over their heads much of the time.

2B. As opposed to having his teammates' back, Bryant stabs them in the back. So his super-talented teammates often respond by playing below their capabilities.

3A. We all know how untalented Cleveland is apart from LeBron, yet they exceed expectations.

3B. We all know how talented the Lakers are, yet they do not always play up to expectations.

4A. LeBron truly elevates his teammates.

4B. Bryant truly alienates his teammates.

You must have wrote this back in 2006. Have you seen a game since then?

[Amaso]

Lebron is the best player of all-time

[RsxPiimp]

I agree with Miller, but again, Jordan fanatics should answer this question.



Using the same logic. Would a prime Michael Jordan make this Cavs a better team?



Without Pippen, no he would'nt. So Lebron>Jordan?



Think about it

Funny how everyone keeps dodging this question.:lol


Im not a fan of Kobe but lately I have been appreciating his game considering he probaly has a few more good years left on him. It would be a while before we see a player of Kobe's offensive repertoire.

[TheMACHINE]

Without a low post player Kobe has never done anything so of course if you give LeBron the same options he has this season he'd definantly elevate the team and probably wouldn't have choked on Garnett/Pierce cock like Kobe did either...what's new?

Ok..Lets say Lebron gets his first ring with Kobes supporting cast? So what?...now both playes have a ring with the same supoortig cast. Its not like Kobe failed to get one and Lebron did.

[TheMACHINE]

Funny how everyone keeps dodging this question.:lol


Im not a fan of Kobe but lately I have been appreciating his game considering he probaly has a few more good years left on him. It would be a while before we see a player of Kobe's offensive repertoire.

i definately agree with you and with the MJ question. If Lebron is so much better than Kobe not based on championships...there is also a great chance that lebron is greater then MJ.

[Pelicans78]

i definately agree with you and with the MJ question. If Lebron is so much better than Kobe not based on championships...there is also a great chance that lebron is greater then MJ.

I think Jordan had better overall numbers than Kobe besides scoring.

Plus, Kobe was only the team MVP in one of those championships. If Lebron can win just one title, he will have matched Kobe in that accomplishment.

Still Kobe is an all-time great and the best scorer and clutch shooter in the game while Lebron may be the better all around player. No reason to deny Kobe of that.

[Killakobe81]

Look i no longer argue the Kobe/Lebron stuff. Kobe is hurt and until Lebron wins a title ...all this other crap is irrelevant. Funny thing is many here said Kobe had to win one without shaq for consideration ....yet many on here do not have that same criteria for Lebron. Hypocrites.

But many on here are fans of teams that has not yet won ish ...so OF COURSE it DOES NOT matter (titles)so that they can argue their favorite player would win if on the Lakers, Celts or Spurs.
Truth of the matter is Duncan, Kobe, KG and Lebron (eventually) would of won titles NO MATTER what team they were on ...the FO just has to be competent.
Lebron is the greatest athlete inthe NBA right now and a top 5 player without a doubt

BUT one could argue C3P, Dwight, Dirk, Pierce, Melo and Kobe are better "players" based on various arguments ....

Only loser fan bases crown someone the best without winning the title regardless of the sport. Arod, Pujols, Peyton, Crosby etc. were all great players BUT could NOT be the BEST until they won on the BIGEST stage ....

Was Elway a better athlete than joe montana? yes (IMHO) but he is not considered the GOAT Joe is by many. Did he have a great supporting cast? No doubt and I hathe the 49ers but until Elway back2back SB's he WAS the Lebron of NFL
A great QB's amazing player, spectacular highlights great in the playoffs until the final game but could not win the big one ...

If Lebron wins at least 2 titles i will be the first to come on here and say now he can be considered the best. I would do it at one ...but Wade would deserve consideration as well. But if he wins this year he gets the nod over kobe as the best player but would need 2 cement it ...

As for Reggie much like his career (though a great player) is a flopper ... he think the Lakers have all-world talent ...that is why he made those crazy predictions about our record to start the season. He has no rings so of course he is ready to crown someone who has not won yet ... his opinion (though Im a bruin alumni) is about as valuable as Bill Walton's ...

[21_Blessings]

i definately agree with you and with the MJ question. If Lebron is so much better than Kobe not based on championships...there is also a great chance that lebron is greater then MJ.

He's not so much better than Kobe or Mj. Nor Magic.

And Lebron hasn't accomplished shit to deserve that claim either.

[TheMACHINE]

I think Jordan had better overall numbers than Kobe besides scoring.

Plus, Kobe was only the team MVP in one of those championships. If Lebron can win just one title, he will have matched Kobe in that accomplishment.

Still Kobe is an all-time great and the best scorer and clutch shooter in the game while Lebron may be the better all around player. No reason to deny Kobe of that.

Lakers fans already know that MJ > Kobe. The question is if Lebron > MJ sans championships. Seems like it based on the same arguements Lebron fans give vs Kobe.

[RsxPiimp]

I think Jordan had better overall numbers than Kobe besides scoring.

So tell me. Do you think a prime Michael Jordan can lead this same Cavaliers into the Finals much more win an NBA Title? Mind you, MJ's Pippen in this instance would be undeniably Mo Williams.


I agree with Miller here fellas, but dont give me any double standards. If you agree that Lebron also>Jordan then Id call it a day and wont argue any longer.

[Pelicans78]

Lakers fans already know that MJ > Kobe. The question is if Lebron > MJ sans championships. Seems like it based on the same arguements Lebron fas give vs Kobe.

MJ > Lebron sans championships.

Honestly, who did Jordan really ever play with? Pippen?

[TheMACHINE]

So tell me. Do you think a prime Michael Jordan can lead this same Cavaliers into the Finals much more win an NBA Title?


Mind you, MJ's Pippen in this instance would be undeniably Mo Williams.

dont forget MJ would try to lead the cavs to a ring without Phil Jackson.

[TheMACHINE]

MJ > Lebron sans championships.

Honestly, who did Jordan really ever play with? Pippen?

Really..are you saying that the Bulls teams were crap?!

[TheMACHINE]

MJ > Lebron sans championships.

Honestly, who did Jordan really ever play with? Pippen?

and who did Kobe have in 2008. Gasol? Or is Odom, Fisher, Bynum and Ariza crazy all star/ hall of famers now?!

[Pelicans78]

So tell me. Do you think a prime Michael Jordan can lead this same Cavaliers into the Finals much more win an NBA Title?


Mind you, MJ's Pippen in this instance would be undeniably Mo Williams.

Absolutely MJ could. In his prime, you mean before he played baseball, and that MJ could everything. Not only athletically, put scoring, defending, passing. MJ basically carried his team to 3 championships in what was a much tougher Eastern conference back then. He could easily carry the Cavs this day & age.

[RsxPiimp]

MJ > Lebron sans championships.

Honestly, who did Jordan really ever play with? Pippen?

That's not even possible. Lebron is already owning Jordan in advance statistics and raw numbers sans championship.

[Killakobe81]

For the record i love Lebron's game. His size,speed power and ball handling is all top notch!
what I dont like: the Finals sweep, Pierce outplaying him down the stretch in ECF, the 4 down Lebron offense for entire games during the loss to the Magic last year and down the stretch this year ...when kobe does that many here criticize Kobe (and I agree) but do the same with Lebron.

[TheMACHINE]

Absolutely MJ could. In his prime, you mean before he played baseball, and that MJ could everything. Not only athletically, put scoring, defending, passing. MJ basically carried his team to 3 championships in what was a much tougher Eastern conference back then. He could easily carry the Cavs this day & age.

you're right...MJ is God and can carry any team including this years Timberwolves.

[Pelicans78]

and who did Kobe have in 2008. Gasol? Or is Odom, Fisher, Bynum and Ariza crazy all star/ hall of famers now?!


Jordan only played with one possible Hall of Famer in Pippen. Horace Grant was a good PF, but not a great PF. Gasol > Grant.

Plus, the league is more diluted now than it was back in those days. Guys were seasoned coming out of college, less teams, etc.

[TheMACHINE]

here's my point (i htink me and RSX are on the same boat).

If Lebron > Kobe sans championships, then Lebron > MJ sans championships.

Lebron > MJ > Kobe

[Killakobe81]

Funny how everyone keeps dodging this question.:lol


Im not a fan of Kobe but lately I have been appreciating his game considering he probaly has a few more good years left on him. It would be a while before we see a player of Kobe's offensive repertoire.

I won't dodge it ...without a title no he is not.
But if you re asking if MJ BEFORE he won if he was better player than Lebron i would still argue yes because the league was WAYYY stronger when MJ was trying to get his first no way MJ could of just willed himself to a Finals because the Celts and pistons wouldnt allow it ...

that said I think Lebron has THE POTENTIAL to be greater tha Kobe and MJ he just has to realize that potential ...

[TheMACHINE]

Jordan only played with one possible Hall of Famer in Pippen. Horace Grant was a good PF, but not a great PF. Gasol > Grant.

Plus, the league is more diluted now than it was back in those days. Guys were seasoned coming out of college, less teams, etc.

Is Gasol a Hall of Famer?

My point is you are so trying to nit-pick and reach for ways to say that MJ>Lebron but wont use the same arguments for Kobe.

[Pelicans78]

you're right...MJ is God and can carry any team including this years Timberwolves.

This Cavs team isn't all that bad. Besides Pippen, how much worse are the Cavs than the first 3 championships the Bulls won?

Cartwright, Grant, Paxon, B.J Armstrong, Stacey King, Scott Williams

[Killakobe81]

you're right...MJ is God and can carry any team including this years Timberwolves.

LOL I think MJ with Cavs cast would be slightly better ...but would not win a title ... MJ with Phil Gasol and artest would win a title but remember the "young" MJ would of ripped Gasol a new one if he played like he did against Cleveland MJ despised euros ...for being soft.

[RsxPiimp]

Absolutely MJ could. In his prime, you mean before he played baseball, and that MJ could everything. Not only athletically, put scoring, defending, passing. MJ basically carried his team to 3 championships in what was a much tougher Eastern conference back then. He could easily carry the Cavs this day & age.

:lol

No way. Jordan would never survive the much more talented Orlando and healthy Boston Celtics. The Cavs will be overwhelmed like no other.



A cast of Jordan,Mo Williams,Delonte West,JJ Hickson, and an aging Shaq under the guidance of Mike Brown are going to get eaten alive. What makes Lebron unique is his extraordinary combination of speed, explosiveness with a freakish athleticism.



Jordan does not have any of those despite being a much complete player than Lebron. MJ would be similar to Dwyane Wade if anything. And We all know Bron is a better player than Wade, healthy or not.

[TheMACHINE]

LOL I think MJ with Cavs cast would be slightly better ...but would not win a title ... MJ with Phil Gasol and artest would win a title but remember the "young" MJ would of ripped Gasol a new one if he played like he did against Cleveland MJ despised euros ...for being soft.

but according the Kobe haters...ripping teammates is a bad thing and you have to lead a team by taking fake pictures and dancing on the sidelines.

[Pelicans78]

Is Gasol a Hall of Famer?

My point is you are so trying to nit-pick and reach for ways to say that MJ>Lebron but wont use the same arguments for Kobe.

Gasol might be a Hall-of-Famer by the end of his career, but he's definitely better than Grant and not far off than Pippen.

Kobe's a better scorer and clutch scorer than Lebron. He's at the tail end of his career so it's not far to judge him with a much younger Lebron. Kobe unfortunately had to share his success with Shaq in his prime.

Kobe did lead an average Lakers team to the playoffs two years in a row which could have done some damage in the Eastern playoffs.

[MiamiHeat]

MJ would not have shot 8-31 FG's to score 31 points to begin with, brah

and he would have played lockdown defense.

[RsxPiimp]

Honestly, who did Jordan really ever play with? Pippen?

What's wrong with Scottie? Id take Scottie over Pau Gasol 10 times out of 10.



And Rodman? Horace Grant? BJ Armstrong? <-----All All Stars and All NBA Defensive players (besides BJ). Mike had it really good in the help department. Let's not be a revisionist here. I followed the Bulls religiously during their 6 title dynasty run.

[MiamiHeat]

anyway,

it's quite clear that LeBron would make the Lakers near unbeatable, and I think they would challenge the 96 bulls 72-10 record if LeBron was on the lakers instead of kobe.

[MiamiHeat]

What's wrong with Scottie? Id take Scottie over Pau Gasol 10 times out of 10.



And Rodman? Horace Grant? BJ Armstrong? <-----All All Stars and All NBA Defensive players (besides BJ). Mike had it really good in the help department. Let's not be a revisionist here. I followed the Bulls religiously during their 6 title dynasty run.

You say that because the Bulls were successful. and that's because Michael Jordan's greatness. If MJ wasn't as great as he was, he would not have been able to carry his teams to dominate the NBA so badly, and you would not hold those players in such high regard


If Kobe was anywhere near as great as MJ, the lakers would be more successful. He isn't though, so you undervalue players like Gasol and Odom, who do more than enough required to dominate. Kobe is lacking, that's all.


Instead, the Lakers underperform, and you blame Gasol and others because they can't carry Kobe

The logic in there is really funny to me

[JamStone]

I think Dennis Rodman is a possible HOFer. And having arguably the best head coach in the history of the game helps as well.

If you put Jordan on the Cavs over the last couple seasons, I don't think he beats the Boston Celtics of the previous two years. He probably single-handedly beats the Pistons like LeBron did, but not the Spurs. But I do think Jordan on the Cavs last year beats the Orlando Magic. I think it's about match-ups. I think Jordan would destroy the Magic.

[Pelicans78]

:lol

No way. Jordan would never survive the much more talented Orlando and healthy Boston Celtics. The Cavs will be overwhelmed like no other.



A cast of Jordan,Mo Williams,Delonte West,JJ Hickson, and an aging Shaq under the guidance of Mike Brown are going to get eaten alive. What makes Lebron unique is his extraordinary combination of speed, explosiveness with a freakish athleticism.



Jordan does not have any of those despite being a much complete player than Lebron. MJ would be similar to Dwyane Wade if anything. And We all know Bron is a better player than Wade, healthy or not.

Jordan survived a much better Orlando team with Shaq/Penny, plus Riley's Knicks. Remember, it's much easier to score nowadays with the rule changes. Can't hand check, etc. Imagine Jordan playing this era.

[Pelicans78]

but according the Kobe haters...ripping teammates is a bad thing and you have to lead a team by taking fake pictures and dancing on the sidelines.

Jordan ripped teammates all the time. Even punched Steve Kerr once. He was much more demanding than Kobe.

Also, Lebron uses steroids :p:

[RsxPiimp]

MJ would not have shot 8-31 FG's to score 31 points to begin with, brah

and he would have played lockdown defense.

Stop being an idiot. Ill give you a couple, on the house.


11/29/1991 vs Portland.


39 FGA to score 41 pts

Or

05/14 92. Playoffs. Knicks

9/25...to score 21 pts?


that was pretty easy :lol

[MiamiHeat]

Jordan was a career 50% FG shooter.

Kobe is 45%

game.

LeBron > Kobe

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan survived a much better Orlando team with Shaq/Penny, plus Riley's Knicks. Remember, it's much easier to score nowadays with the rule changes. Can't hand check, etc. Imagine Jordan playing this era.

Again. Like I said. That team had a couple of HOF'ers. Rodman, Pippen and Phil Jackson made all the difference in the world. Its no surprise that Jordan has not won anything without Pippen and Phil Jackson.

So, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that

Mo Williams
Michael Jordan
Jamario Moon
JJ Hickson
Shaquille O'Neal


Would beat a healthy Boston team.

[MiamiHeat]

plus,


LeBron has NEVER had a team as talented as the Lakers are. NEVER

[TheMACHINE]

anyway,

it's quite clear that LeBron would make the Lakers near unbeatable, and I think they would challenge the 96 bulls 72-10 record if LeBron was on the lakers instead of kobe.

ok.

Does anyone take this guy seriously?

[TheMACHINE]

plus,


LeBron has NEVER had a team as talented as the Lakers are. NEVER

ok.

[TheMACHINE]

Jordan was a career 50% FG shooter.

Kobe is 45%

game.

LeBron > Kobe

thanks for repeating everything that has been said in the past 2 pages.

[TheMACHINE]

Jordan ripped teammates all the time. Even punched Steve Kerr once. He was much more demanding than Kobe.

Also, Lebron uses steroids :p:

Just to confirm, you are saying MJ > Lebron > Kobe sans championships?

[MiamiHeat]

Imagine if LeBron was also coached by Phil Jackson

i mean, LeBron is out in Cleveland with MIKE FUCKING BROWN! it's a wonder he's not fired yet. LeBron is carrying that hack coach. they need to replace his ass

[RsxPiimp]

I think Dennis Rodman is a possible HOFer. And having arguably the best head coach in the history of the game helps as well.

If you put Jordan on the Cavs over the last couple seasons, I don't think he beats the Boston Celtics of the previous two years. He probably single-handedly beats the Pistons like LeBron did, but not the Spurs. But I do think Jordan on the Cavs last year beats the Orlando Magic. I think it's about match-ups. I think Jordan would destroy the Magic.

The problem with the Cavs last year is not Lebron. Again, I posted his NBA best averages against the Magic and Orlando almost swept them.


Point I was making there is, whether its Lebron or Mike, without a legitimate second option like Pippen for example, the Cavs are not going anywhere near the Finals.

[RsxPiimp]

ok.

Does anyone take this guy seriously?

Ignore?

[MiamiHeat]

Point I was making there is, whether its Lebron or Mike, without a legitimate second option like Pippen for example, the Cavs are not going anywhere near the Finals.

garbage, LeBron already took a WORSE Cavalier team than today's to the NBA Finals in 2007.

[MiamiHeat]

Ignore?

Ok fucktard laker fan, welcome to my ignore.

Don't waste time responding to my posts. Just you better believe I will still be posting about your shitty ass laker star and you will just be a big fucking pussy who couldn't handle my fire.

I am too hot for your punk ass. run bitch run

[RsxPiimp]

Also, Id like to know who here would take a soft spanish pussy like Gasol over a defensive and offensive catalyst, Top 50 player like Pippen.

[TheMACHINE]

Also, Id like to know who here would take a soft spanish pussy like Gasol over a defensive and offensive catalyst, Top 50 player like Pippen.

miamiheat thinks Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Artest and Fisher are Top 50 players.

[HarlemHeat37]

What does being Spanish have to do with anything?..

[Pelicans78]

garbage, LeBron already took a WORSE Cavalier team than today's to the NBA Finals in 2007.

I don't think that team would have gotten out of the first round in the West.

According to Hollinger's PER rating, Jordan had 4 out of the highest 5 PER ratings of all all-time with PERs in the 31s, so statistically he matches up well with Lebron.

[Pelicans78]

miamiheat thinks Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Artest and Fisher are Top 50 players.

Pippen isn't a top 50 player anymore and even at the time it was questionable. He was the true definition of a jock strap.

[TheMACHINE]

I don't think that team would have gotten out of the first round in the West.

According to Hollinger's PER rating, Jordan had 4 out of the highest 5 PER ratings of all all-time with PERs in the 31s, so statistically he matches up well with Lebron.

and the Spurs practically proved it with a sweep.

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan ripped teammates all the time. Even punched Steve Kerr once. He was much more demanding than Kobe.

Also, Lebron uses steroids :p:

They were both Grade A douchebags no doubt. So is Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. And yeah Isiah too. All the great ones have a certain sense of entitlement with them. I think Duncan is the only exception to that list.

[TheMACHINE]

Pippen isn't a top 50 player anymore and even at the time it was questionable. He was the true definition of a jock strap.

well..to be fair..in time..as new players come, players will get pushed back, but Pippen was definately top 50 at the time he played.

[MiamiHeat]

Jordan ripped teammates all the time. Even punched Steve Kerr once. He was much more demanding than Kobe.

Also, Lebron uses steroids :p:

gJBc3GYzAPs

Jordan made Pippen. Jordan was MVP, DPOY, and scoring champ before Pippen ever started for a team in the NBA.

Go look at interviews of Bulls coaches and staff. They say

"Michael's influence on Scottie was there from day one. "


and then laker fans turn around and act like Pippen made MJ a champ LOL

[Pelicans78]

It did take Jordan 7 years to win a championship so obviously he couldn't carry a bad awful team. But the Cavs should have beat Orlando last season. They wouldn't have beaten the Lakers, but they were good enough to beat Orlando. It's not all Lebron's fault. Mo Williams was shitty during that entire series.

[Pelicans78]

They were both Grade A douchebags no doubt. So is Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. And yeah Isiah too. All the great ones have a certain sense of entitlement with them. I think Duncan is the only exception to that list.

Duncan's a douchebag too. He's never committed a foul in his whole life.

[RsxPiimp]

Pippen isn't a top 50 player anymore and even at the time it was questionable. He was the true definition of a jock strap.

Show me a link,article,proof questioning Pippen's place among the Top 50 players of all time. No one in their right mind would question the best sidekick in league history bro.

[in2deep]

LMAO at the delusional lakerfans

Lebron clearly >>>>> Kobe

Lebron lead Lakers would be scary

[HarlemHeat37]

Pippen is a top 50 player either way, even if a bunch of players come in the NBA and push some back, which doesn't happen very often..

He's overrated when idiots like namlook say he was the best player in the NBA in his time, but he's certainly top 50..

[Pelicans78]

Show me a link,article,proof questioning Pippen's place among the Top 50 players of all time. No one in their right mind would question the best sidekick in league history bro.

Kobe surpassed him as the best sidekick winning those titles with Shaq :toast

[RsxPiimp]

Kobe surpassed him as the best sidekick winning those titles with Shaq :toast

6 titles>3, yes? ;)

[TheMACHINE]

and then laker fans turn around and act like Pippen made MJ a champ LOL

ahh just like your dumbass thinks gasol made kobe into a champ.

[RsxPiimp]

It did take Jordan 7 years to win a championship so obviously he couldn't carry a bad awful team. But the Cavs should have beat Orlando last season. They wouldn't have beaten the Lakers, but they were good enough to beat Orlando. It's not all Lebron's fault. Mo Williams was shitty during that entire series.

Orlando just owns the Cavs. Lebron had a god-like series, even hit a game winning prayer beyond the arc to avoid embarassment and they still lost.


Personally, I dont think Mike could top Lebron's perfomance in that series. Even if Jordan can, Cavs still lack a viable second option to close Orlando out. Jordan or Lebron woul'dnt make a differnce. A legitimate second option would be the difference maker.

[TheMACHINE]

Orlando just owns the Cavs. Lebron had a god-like series, even hit a game winning prayer beyond the arc to avoid embarassment and they still lost.


Personally, I dont think Mike could top Lebron's perfomance in that series. Even if Jordan can, Cavs still lack a viable second option to close Orlando out. Jordan or Lebron woul'dnt make a differnce. A legitimate second option would be the difference maker.

no matter what, even the greatest players needs a second option. Just ask Magic, West, Jordan and Kobe.

Lebron is going to carry a team to a ring on his own.

[TheMACHINE]

Orlando just owns the Cavs. Lebron had a god-like series, even hit a game winning prayer beyond the arc to avoid embarassment and they still lost.


Personally, I dont think Mike could top Lebron's perfomance in that series. Even if Jordan can, Cavs still lack a viable second option to close Orlando out. Jordan or Lebron woul'dnt make a differnce. A legitimate second option would be the difference maker.

no matter what, even the greatest players needs a second option. Just ask Magic, West, Jordan and Kobe.

Lebron isnt going to carry a team to a ring on his own.

[RsxPiimp]

ahh just like your dumbass thinks gasol made kobe into a champ.

Gasol is good. He's a Top 15 player good. But he does'nt have the will power to lead a team. Kobe and Gasol were made for each other. Kobe can't win without an All Star big man and Gasol can never win a single playoff game until he was paired with a Superstar with unquenchable desire to win at the greatest heights. You put two and two together and what you have are champions.

[RsxPiimp]

no matter what, even the greatest players needs a second option. Just ask Magic, West, Jordan and Kobe.

Lebron isnt going to carry a team to a ring on his own.

You got it.


I think the closest one is Olajuwon. He never had a "real" superstar/second option in Houston during their first title in the 90's. But Olajuwon was in beast mode winning MVP, DPOY, FInals MVP and the title that year.


That Houston team kinda reflects this Cleveland team. Full of smart and hard working players who gelled together at the right time in one magical season.

[TheMACHINE]

Gasol is good. He's a Top 15 player good. But he does'nt have the will power to lead a team. Kobe and Gasol were made for each other. Kobe can't win without an All Star big man and Gasol can never win a single playoff game until he was paired with a Superstar with unquenchable desire to win at the greatest heights. You put two and two together and what you have are champions.

same as Pippen with MJ.

and same as Lebron and _______ when he does win one.

[TheMACHINE]

You got it.


I think the closest one is Olajuwon. He never had a "real" superstar/second option in Houston during their first title in the 90's. But Olajuwon was in beast mode winning MVP, DPOY, FInals MVP and the title that year.


That Houston team kinda reflects this Cleveland team. Full of smart and hard working players who gelled together at the right time in one magical season.

But how would you think the houston team would be against the bulls with Jordan?

[MiamiHeat]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100120&sportCat=nba

ESPN : Know this: The Kobe-LeBron argument is dead. It's over. LeBron James is the best basketball player alive.

[MiamiHeat]

Reggie Miller, ESPN, everyone joining to agree

No more debate. The debate is dead

LeBron is the best in the NBA. period

[RsxPiimp]

@Machine. At least Pippen had an MVP calibre season and led the Bulls past first round and pushed the then ECF champion Knicks into the brink of elimination. Gasol was 0-12 as the main guy. That's disgusting.

[RsxPiimp]

But how would you think the houston team would be against the bulls with Jordan?

Olajuwon would get their ass handed to them lol. That same Knicks team was the team that almost lost to Scottie Pippen's Bulls. Add Jordan in the mix then Olajuwon's accolades that year probably stops at MVP and DPOY lol. No doubt in my mind Jordan and the Bulls would finish Houston in 6.

[in2deep]

@Machine. At least Pippen had an MVP calibre season and led the Bulls past first round and pushed the then ECF champion Knicks into the brink of elimination. Gasol was 0-12 as the main guy. That's disgusting.

Pippen played that season along with the 3 time champion Bulls and coached by Phil Jackson.

Gasol didn't have anything close to that.

[TheMACHINE]

Olajuwon would get their ass handed to them lol. That same Knicks team was the team that almost lost to Scottie Pippen's Bulls. Add Jordan in the mix then Olajuwon's accolades that year probably stops at MVP and DPOY lol. No doubt in my mind Jordan and the Bulls would finish Houston in 6.

yup..cuz like we stated before...you need two great players to win a ring.

[RsxPiimp]

Pippen played that season along with the 3 time champion Bulls and coached by Phil Jackson.

Gasol didn't have anything close to that.

Be that as it may, Gasol does'nt have an excuse to not even squeeze a single win on 12 tries. Its like a random guy coming to your place and starts pounding your girl in front of you and your family on 3 seperate occasions while you failed to demonstrate an ounce of pride or gut to at least strike back and show this guy that he's not going to have an easy way to your girls vagina.

[Donkeybong]

Jordan survived a much better Orlando team with Shaq/Penny, plus Riley's Knicks. Remember, it's much easier to score nowadays with the rule changes. Can't hand check, etc. Imagine Jordan playing this era.

In my opinion that's a myth. Hand checking rules are much less impeding than zone defenses, which are seen in this era of the NBA.

[JamStone]

Pippen played that season along with the 3 time champion Bulls and coached by Phil Jackson.

Gasol didn't have anything close to that.

Pippen's teammates in the starting line-up that season were BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant, and Bill Cartwright. The second leading scorer was Horace Grant who was a jumpshooting power forward who couldn't create his own shot. They replaced Michael Jordan with Pete Myers who averaged 8 PPG that season. They did have Kukoc off the bench but it was his rookie season.

What Pippen helped Chicago to accomplish in 1993-94 was pretty incredible considering the lack of talent he had around him.

I'm not one to say Pippen is still absolutely a top 50 player today. I think he's probably on the fringe. But I do think he's a legit HOFer. He was basically putting up 20/7/6 in those Bulls championship runs. He's a weird case though, because he's often either really overrated by some or really underrated by some. But, while Jordan helped make Scottie the player he ended up becoming, I still think Scottie deserves much of the credit. I mean, if Jordan could do that to Scottie, why couldn't he do it to BJ Armstrong or Stacey King or Jason Caffey? Give credit to Scottie for working hard to becoming the player he was.

[HANNIBAL SMITH]

:lol Of Course Lebron would make the Lakers better than they are without Kobe, The Royal treatment he gets from the refs would be a huge asset as far as winning games. Bring the media's darling to the most popular team in the League with the royal treatment he gets from the refs, the Lakers would be unstoppable.That would be sterns dream for Lebron to play for the Lakers.



I think Jamstone pretty much nailed it as far as their leadership goes. They both lead, but do in a different way. Kobe is about business, no bullshit. Lebron jokes and have fun with his teammates, but lets see if that dancing and clowning around on the sidelines bring the cavs championships in the future. It's also funny people having amnesia forgetting how good Micheal Jordan really was, Jordan would make the Cavs an elite team as well.

[RsxPiimp]

I dont think anyone said Jordan would'nt make the Cavs elite. The Cavs today even without Lebron are a playoff team. What was said is that "Jordan replacing Lebron would not make them a title contender" with Mo Williams as your second option. Thats the sticking and ongoing point.

[JamStone]

The thing with Jordan's great 50% field goal percentage is that I don't think he'd shoot 50% if he played in this era of NBA basketball (late 90s to present). I don't think it's necessarily about the hand check rule or zone defense. I think it's more about Jordan's height, size, and strength for the shooting guard position in that era and the lack of emphasis on defense in that era of NBA basketball.

For much of the 80s and even early 90s, shooting guards were around 6-2 or 6-3 and 175-180 lbs. Jordan and Drexler were the new bigger, longer, taller breed of shooting guards. That gave them advantages in scoring on most nights. And, especially when Pippen joined the Bulls, it was difficult for teams to switch their small forwards to guard Jordan because Pippen would be able to exploit whatever smaller guard would switch on to him.

Also, defense has changed a lot since the time of the mid 80s to the mid 90s. It's not just zone defenses and the charge circles. It's strategies and emphasis. There were only a few teams like the Pistons and the Knicks in Jordan's time that played really tough, hard nose defense. You can see it in the FG% of a lot of players in the same era. Guys like Chris Mullin and Bernard King were well over 50% field goal shooters for their careers. Even less athletic, jumpshooting, smaller 2-guards like Jeff Hornacek and Rolando Blackman shot 50% from the field. In today's NBA, athletes are bigger and stronger and longer, they close harder on jumpshooters, have more length to bother shots, are more athletic, there are better coaching schemes. In fact, that's what makes players like LeBron and Wade (except for this season) so special that they're still able to shoot 47-50% from the field as perimeter players, although I do attribute it much to the fact that they attack the basket more than most perimeter players. But if you look at some of the other "great" scoring 2-guards over the last 10 years or so, like Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, none of them have been better than 45% from the field. It's a different NBA than when Jordan played, especially his prime years.

Now, that said, I still think Jordan would likely be a 46-48% field goal shooter, which would still be better than most 2-guards in the league, but I don't think he'd be a career 50% FG shooter and have seasons where he'd be shooting 52-53% from the field.

[HANNIBAL SMITH]

The cavs have more than just Mo Williams. Jordan wouldn't make the cavs a title contender? How you figure he wouldn't? Especially in today's era

[HANNIBAL SMITH]

If D-Wade and Lebron can shoot 48-50% from the field then i don't see why Jordan couldn't, he would get to the Line at will just like they do also.

[Killakobe81]

Pippen's teammates in the starting line-up that season were BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant, and Bill Cartwright. The second leading scorer was Horace Grant who was a jumpshooting power forward who couldn't create his own shot. They replaced Michael Jordan with Pete Myers who averaged 8 PPG that season. They did have Kukoc off the bench but it was his rookie season.

What Pippen helped Chicago to accomplish in 1993-94 was pretty incredible considering the lack of talent he had around him.

I'm not one to say Pippen is still absolutely a top 50 player today. I think he's probably on the fringe. But I do think he's a legit HOFer. He was basically putting up 20/7/6 in those Bulls championship runs. He's a weird case though, because he's often either really overrated by some or really underrated by some. But, while Jordan helped make Scottie the player he ended up becoming, I still think Scottie deserves much of the credit. I mean, if Jordan could do that to Scottie, why couldn't he do it to BJ Armstrong or Stacey King or Jason Caffey? Give credit to Scottie for working hard to becoming the player he was.

Amen.
and i'm not saying Kobe is = or > than Mj ...but to say MJ won with little help when Pippen at this point in his career a sure HOF'er and Gasol is not it's RIDICULOUS to not consider this when counting supporting cast as side-kicks:
Pippen>Gasol>>mo williams ...

[RsxPiimp]

Because other teams are simply better. The equation is pretty simple. No one man team is going to lead a team to a title in todays generation. Team's are simply stacking up with talents. Gone were the days where a "Deep team" consists of at least 2 All Star players. Having 3,4 or even 5 All Star Caliber players are the norm nowadays.

[Killakobe81]

The thing with Jordan's great 50% field goal percentage is that I don't think he'd shoot 50% if he played in this era of NBA basketball (late 90s to present). I don't think it's necessarily about the hand check rule or zone defense. I think it's more about Jordan's height, size, and strength for the shooting guard position in that era and the lack of emphasis on defense in that era of NBA basketball.

For much of the 80s and even early 90s, shooting guards were around 6-2 or 6-3 and 175-180 lbs. Jordan and Drexler were the new bigger, longer, taller breed of shooting guards. That gave them advantages in scoring on most nights. And, especially when Pippen joined the Bulls, it was difficult for teams to switch their small forwards to guard Jordan because Pippen would be able to exploit whatever smaller guard would switch on to him.

Also, defense has changed a lot since the time of the mid 80s to the mid 90s. It's not just zone defenses and the charge circles. It's strategies and emphasis. There were only a few teams like the Pistons and the Knicks in Jordan's time that played really tough, hard nose defense. You can see it in the FG% of a lot of players in the same era. Guys like Chris Mullin and Bernard King were well over 50% field goal shooters for their careers. Even less athletic, jumpshooting, smaller 2-guards like Jeff Hornacek and Rolando Blackman shot 50% from the field. In today's NBA, athletes are bigger and stronger and longer, they close harder on jumpshooters, have more length to bother shots, are more athletic, there are better coaching schemes. In fact, that's what makes players like LeBron and Wade (except for this season) so special that they're still able to shoot 47-50% from the field as perimeter players, although I do attribute it much to the fact that they attack the basket more than most perimeter players. But if you look at some of the other "great" scoring 2-guards over the last 10 years or so, like Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, none of them have been better than 45% from the field. It's a different NBA than when Jordan played, especially his prime years.

Now, that said, I still think Jordan would likely be a 46-48% field goal shooter, which would still be better than most 2-guards in the league, but I don't think he'd be a career 50% FG shooter and have seasons where he'd be shooting 52-53% from the field.

agreed. Great post no one is diminishing MJ but the two gaurds were weak athleticaly ...

[JamStone]

If D-Wade and Lebron can shoot 48-50% from the field then i don't see why Jordan couldn't, he would get to the Line at will just like they do also.

Perhaps in his first few seasons in the league when he was driving and dunking all the time, he'd be in that range. Perhaps even 1 or 2 seasons where he's right around 50%. But, I was suggesting he wouldn't be able to shoot 50% for his career in today's NBA the way he did when he played. I don't think he'd ever get close to shooting 54% from the field for a season like he did 2-3 times. For his career, if he played in today's NBA, I think Jordan would be more of a 46-48% FG shooter, a little better than Kobe's career FG%.

[Killakobe81]

gJBc3GYzAPs

Jordan made Pippen. Jordan was MVP, DPOY, and scoring champ before Pippen ever started for a team in the NBA.

Go look at interviews of Bulls coaches and staff. They say

"Michael's influence on Scottie was there from day one. "


and then laker fans turn around and act like Pippen made MJ a champ LOL

No one is arguing that you are being foolish. But Pippen carried a team MINUS MJ to a great record and one questionable call fromthe ECF ... THAT team was NOT very good and to be honest outside of the the rings they got with MJ are the brightest spots on PJ's and Pip's HOF resume ...

Dont get me wrong some people overrate Pippen and he did not win anything significant without MJ butthe only number two option since the 80's in his class are Joe D, Kobe, Drexler and K.G. .... (that have won titles)

[RsxPiimp]

Quality of defense was pretty good back in the day, but the quality of players were pretty bad. The advanatge of know how in fundamentals was simply offset by the lack of athleticism.


No disrespect to Mark Eaton and Manute Bol, but adding them in the All NBA Defensive teams nowadays would be laughable.

[Killakobe81]

anyway,

it's quite clear that LeBron would make the Lakers near unbeatable, and I think they would challenge the 96 bulls 72-10 record if LeBron was on the lakers instead of kobe.

LOL so Lebron would inject some toughness into Pau fix Bynum's knees and Dfish's defense and Sasha's jumpshot? And LO's inconsistency ...idiot!!!

[ChrisRichards]

I think Lebron would also make the Lakers a better team. That's obvious and why the hell do we have a seperate thread here? I thought we have a Kobe thread stickied here?

[redzero]

How many assists would LeBron average with Gasol, Bynum and Odom on his team? I'm going with 14 or 15.

[TheMACHINE]

I think Lebron would also make the Lakers a better team. That's obvious and why the hell do we have a seperate thread here? I thought we have a Kobe thread stickied here?

you already said that several times in this thread.

[TheMACHINE]

How many assists would LeBron average with Gasol, Bynum and Odom on his team? I'm going with 14 or 15.

why doesnt he do that now since he has the top 2 "3 point shooters" in his team?

[FkLA]

No surprises here, this is something everyone but Laker homers realize. Lebron has a more complete offensive game in the sense that he isnt just a scorer but also a facilitator. Not to mention the fact that he isnt the type of player that will shoot 30 times every game in order to get his stats all while accumulating a grand total of about 3 assists. Defensively, Artest always guards the opposing teams best swingman so there is no drop off there. Lebron will just guard the scrubs that Kobe usually guards.

[ChrisRichards]

Quality of defense was pretty good back in the day, but the quality of players were pretty bad. The advanatge of know how in fundamentals was simply offset by the lack of athleticism.


No disrespect to Mark Eaton and Manute Bol, but adding them in the All NBA Defensive teams nowadays would be laughable.
Yeah. I can't believe Dan Majerle was a multiple nba all defense player. same with Dumars. Jordan even went on his way calling joe d as the best defensive player he ever faced lol, dude was like 6'3 lol. like you said, those players are probably great with fundamentals that justified their selections, but they lack the athletic ability of today's nba players.

[ChrisRichards]

you already said that several times in this thread.
Huh?

[JamStone]

How many assists would LeBron average with Gasol, Bynum and Odom on his team? I'm going with 14 or 15.

Playing most halfcourt sets out of the triangle, probably about 6-7.

You do realize LeBron gets 50+ isolation plays called for him every game. He takes 20 field goal attempts per game and another 10 free throw attempts per game which is another 5-7 possessions. That leaves him about 23+ times a game (probably more) in isolation for him to pick up an assist in the halfcourt. That doesn't include transition.

[RsxPiimp]

How many assists would LeBron average with Gasol, Bynum and Odom on his team? I'm going with 14 or 15.

Assist average/totals has nothing to do with playmaking abilities. Kobe gets a lot of hockey assists, similar to Duncan. Without a doubt in my mind, Kobe is a better playmaker, has a better court vision than Bron. In an isolation setting, Kobe would average more than 5 assist a game. Matter of fact he already did average around 8 a game in one season.


The difference is Lebron is much more of a willing passer than Kobe.

[TheMACHINE]

Huh?


Reggie Miller, ESPN, everyone joining to agree

No more debate. The debate is dead

LeBron is the best in the NBA. period


Jordan was a career 50% FG shooter.

Kobe is 45%

game.

LeBron > Kobe


plus,


LeBron has NEVER had a team as talented as the Lakers are. NEVER

[RsxPiimp]

:lol^

[ChrisRichards]

Pls dont associate me with MiamiHeat. That guy is an Idiot (no disrespect to the idiots out there)

[FkLA]

:lol Of Course Lebron would make the Lakers better than they are without Kobe, The Royal treatment he gets from the refs would be a huge asset as far as winning games. Bring the media's darling to the most popular team in the League with the royal treatment he gets from the refs, the Lakers would be unstoppable.That would be sterns dream for Lebron to play for the Lakers.

I think Jamstone pretty much nailed it as far as their leadership goes. They both lead, but do in a different way. Kobe is about business, no bullshit. Lebron jokes and have fun with his teammates, but lets see if that dancing and clowning around on the sidelines bring the cavs championships in the future. It's also funny people having amnesia forgetting how good Micheal Jordan really was, Jordan would make the Cavs an elite team as well.

Did a Laker fan really just talk shit about refs and Stern playing favorites, really? Really?!? Really?!? After having Gasol gift wrapped, after obvious and blatant favoritism for the Lakers in the playoffs (Kings WCF most notably), after Stern himself came out and said his dream Finals matchup is "Lakers vs Lakers"", etc, etc, etc.

Also you act like Kobe doesnt get the same shit calls that Lebron does. Sit the fuck down son, Laker fans are the last people that should be complaining about Bron getting calls.

[hitmanyr2k]

The thing with Jordan's great 50% field goal percentage is that I don't think he'd shoot 50% if he played in this era of NBA basketball (late 90s to present). I don't think it's necessarily about the hand check rule or zone defense. I think it's more about Jordan's height, size, and strength for the shooting guard position in that era and the lack of emphasis on defense in that era of NBA basketball.

For much of the 80s and even early 90s, shooting guards were around 6-2 or 6-3 and 175-180 lbs. Jordan and Drexler were the new bigger, longer, taller breed of shooting guards. That gave them advantages in scoring on most nights. And, especially when Pippen joined the Bulls, it was difficult for teams to switch their small forwards to guard Jordan because Pippen would be able to exploit whatever smaller guard would switch on to him.

Also, defense has changed a lot since the time of the mid 80s to the mid 90s. It's not just zone defenses and the charge circles. It's strategies and emphasis. There were only a few teams like the Pistons and the Knicks in Jordan's time that played really tough, hard nose defense. You can see it in the FG% of a lot of players in the same era. Guys like Chris Mullin and Bernard King were well over 50% field goal shooters for their careers. Even less athletic, jumpshooting, smaller 2-guards like Jeff Hornacek and Rolando Blackman shot 50% from the field. In today's NBA, athletes are bigger and stronger and longer, they close harder on jumpshooters, have more length to bother shots, are more athletic, there are better coaching schemes. In fact, that's what makes players like LeBron and Wade (except for this season) so special that they're still able to shoot 47-50% from the field as perimeter players, although I do attribute it much to the fact that they attack the basket more than most perimeter players. But if you look at some of the other "great" scoring 2-guards over the last 10 years or so, like Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, none of them have been better than 45% from the field. It's a different NBA than when Jordan played, especially his prime years.

Now, that said, I still think Jordan would likely be a 46-48% field goal shooter, which would still be better than most 2-guards in the league, but I don't think he'd be a career 50% FG shooter and have seasons where he'd be shooting 52-53% from the field.

I think differently. The thing that separates Jordan from all of those other players in bold is that he stayed away from chucking the 3-ball. T-Mac, Vince, AI all played like idiots and in Vince's case STILL do :lol They're in love with the 3 pointer. Wade was pretty much a mini-Jordan. At 6'4 he was shooting a high percentage because he stuck with the midrange game and attacking the rim. Now he's playing like the rest of the idiots and chucking 3 balls and you're seeing it affect his efficiency. If Lebron wasn't chucking 3's he'd easily be way over 50% shooting...probably approaching Jordan's career high 54% mark. Even Kobe started playing smarter this year sticking with the midrange/post game and staying away from chucking 3's (which is why his percentage was so high at the beginning of the season) but he's fallen right back into his dumb habits of launching 3's as well. Jordan would easily hit 50% shooting in this weak era...especially with the rules the way they are now.

I've always said Jordan's b-ball IQ and willingness to work for the good shot always separated him from the mental midget swingmen of today and that's holds true.

[TheMACHINE]

Also you act like Kobe doesnt get the same shit calls that Lebron does. Sit the fuck down son, Laker fans are the last people to complain about Bron getting calls.

haha..u actually think Kobe gets the same calls as lebron?! :lol

[Metheny]

I dont think anyone said Jordan would'nt make the Cavs elite. The Cavs today even without Lebron are a playoff team. What was said is that "Jordan replacing Lebron would not make them a title contender" with Mo Williams as your second option. Thats the sticking and ongoing point.



You sir are a idiot

[FkLA]

Assist average/totals has nothing to do with playmaking abilities. Kobe gets a lot of hockey assists, similar to Duncan. Without a doubt in my mind, Kobe is a better playmaker, has a better court vision than Bron. In an isolation setting, Kobe would average more than 5 assist a game. Matter of fact he already did average around 8 a game in one season.


The difference is Lebron is much more of a willing passer than Kobe.

Kobe has better court-vision than Bron? Ridiculous. As far as Kobe being a better playmaker, I'll give you the fact that Kobe has the tools to be as good of a playmaker as Bron. But like you said he just doesnt have that willingness to be that, he thrives on scoring. As far as being a playmaker and facilitator Bron wins the comparison hands down, its not even that close either.


haha..u actually think Kobe gets the same calls as lebron?! :lol

Yessir. Stern and the NBA market the NBA using both Bron's and Kobe as their main selling image, lets not try to act like the NBA is all about Bron. Kobe is right up there especially considering the fact that he wears purple and gold.

[Metheny]

The thing with Jordan's great 50% field goal percentage is that I don't think he'd shoot 50% if he played in this era of NBA basketball (late 90s to present). I don't think it's necessarily about the hand check rule or zone defense. I think it's more about Jordan's height, size, and strength for the shooting guard position in that era and the lack of emphasis on defense in that era of NBA basketball.

For much of the 80s and even early 90s, shooting guards were around 6-2 or 6-3 and 175-180 lbs. Jordan and Drexler were the new bigger, longer, taller breed of shooting guards. That gave them advantages in scoring on most nights. And, especially when Pippen joined the Bulls, it was difficult for teams to switch their small forwards to guard Jordan because Pippen would be able to exploit whatever smaller guard would switch on to him.

Also, defense has changed a lot since the time of the mid 80s to the mid 90s. It's not just zone defenses and the charge circles. It's strategies and emphasis. There were only a few teams like the Pistons and the Knicks in Jordan's time that played really tough, hard nose defense. You can see it in the FG% of a lot of players in the same era. Guys like Chris Mullin and Bernard King were well over 50% field goal shooters for their careers. Even less athletic, jumpshooting, smaller 2-guards like Jeff Hornacek and Rolando Blackman shot 50% from the field. In today's NBA, athletes are bigger and stronger and longer, they close harder on jumpshooters, have more length to bother shots, are more athletic, there are better coaching schemes. In fact, that's what makes players like LeBron and Wade (except for this season) so special that they're still able to shoot 47-50% from the field as perimeter players, although I do attribute it much to the fact that they attack the basket more than most perimeter players. But if you look at some of the other "great" scoring 2-guards over the last 10 years or so, like Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, none of them have been better than 45% from the field. It's a different NBA than when Jordan played, especially his prime years.

Now, that said, I still think Jordan would likely be a 46-48% field goal shooter, which would still be better than most 2-guards in the league, but I don't think he'd be a career 50% FG shooter and have seasons where he'd be shooting 52-53% from the field.



And you sir are a bigger idiot jordan would dominate even more

[RsxPiimp]

You sir are a idiot

You are A idiot. :lol


Anyway. The Cavs remind me of Houston Rockets. No star power but great chemistry and a deep understanding of defensive roles/positions. Houston are 24-21. Thats good enough for a 5th-6th seed in the East.

[Metheny]

I don't think you watch the nba cause its claer without lebron cavs are nothing like artest has stated

[21_Blessings]

Artest is also literally retarded, fyi

[RsxPiimp]

Kobe has better court-vision than Bron? Ridiculous..

I think its a wash. It could go both ways. I could understand why people would pick Bron in that department though, as much as I hate to gauge a players ability with raw assist numbers, Lebron edges Kobe because as we both agreed, Lebron is much willing passer.

[ambchang]

The thing with Jordan's great 50% field goal percentage is that I don't think he'd shoot 50% if he played in this era of NBA basketball (late 90s to present). I don't think it's necessarily about the hand check rule or zone defense. I think it's more about Jordan's height, size, and strength for the shooting guard position in that era and the lack of emphasis on defense in that era of NBA basketball.

For much of the 80s and even early 90s, shooting guards were around 6-2 or 6-3 and 175-180 lbs. Jordan and Drexler were the new bigger, longer, taller breed of shooting guards. That gave them advantages in scoring on most nights. And, especially when Pippen joined the Bulls, it was difficult for teams to switch their small forwards to guard Jordan because Pippen would be able to exploit whatever smaller guard would switch on to him.

Also, defense has changed a lot since the time of the mid 80s to the mid 90s. It's not just zone defenses and the charge circles. It's strategies and emphasis. There were only a few teams like the Pistons and the Knicks in Jordan's time that played really tough, hard nose defense. You can see it in the FG% of a lot of players in the same era. Guys like Chris Mullin and Bernard King were well over 50% field goal shooters for their careers. Even less athletic, jumpshooting, smaller 2-guards like Jeff Hornacek and Rolando Blackman shot 50% from the field. In today's NBA, athletes are bigger and stronger and longer, they close harder on jumpshooters, have more length to bother shots, are more athletic, there are better coaching schemes. In fact, that's what makes players like LeBron and Wade (except for this season) so special that they're still able to shoot 47-50% from the field as perimeter players, although I do attribute it much to the fact that they attack the basket more than most perimeter players. But if you look at some of the other "great" scoring 2-guards over the last 10 years or so, like Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, none of them have been better than 45% from the field. It's a different NBA than when Jordan played, especially his prime years.

Now, that said, I still think Jordan would likely be a 46-48% field goal shooter, which would still be better than most 2-guards in the league, but I don't think he'd be a career 50% FG shooter and have seasons where he'd be shooting 52-53% from the field.

I agree with most the points you made, but Jeff Hornacek was a 50% shooter in the mid-ninties, against the bruising style of grind-it-out defenses. He was a dead-eye 3pt and mid range shooter, and he take smart shots. Him shooting over 50% is not an indication of how much defense sucked back then, it was more to do with how good he was as a shooter and the kind of shots he took.

Rolando Blackman, while not all that athletic, was a legit 6'6". He too was a fantastic mid-range shooter.

Athleticism has something to do with FG%, but even a guy like Steve Nash is shooting over 50% nowadays. Others like Jose Calderon and Ray Allen are up there as well. They did it through smart shot selection.

[RsxPiimp]

Artest is also literally retarded, fyi

Bingo :lol

[in2deep]

Pippen's teammates in the starting line-up that season were BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant, and Bill Cartwright. The second leading scorer was Horace Grant who was a jumpshooting power forward who couldn't create his own shot. They replaced Michael Jordan with Pete Myers who averaged 8 PPG that season. They did have Kukoc off the bench but it was his rookie season.

What Pippen helped Chicago to accomplish in 1993-94 was pretty incredible considering the lack of talent he had around him.

I'm not one to say Pippen is still absolutely a top 50 player today. I think he's probably on the fringe. But I do think he's a legit HOFer. He was basically putting up 20/7/6 in those Bulls championship runs. He's a weird case though, because he's often either really overrated by some or really underrated by some. But, while Jordan helped make Scottie the player he ended up becoming, I still think Scottie deserves much of the credit. I mean, if Jordan could do that to Scottie, why couldn't he do it to BJ Armstrong or Stacey King or Jason Caffey? Give credit to Scottie for working hard to becoming the player he was.

Again, Pippen had help of a championship coach and playing in the same championship squad minus Jordan.

My point is Pippen did not singlehandedly accomplish that season.

[in2deep]

the cavs are a playoff team without Lebron???
:lmao :lmao :lmao


wow... just wow

[Scola]

I'm not sure about that, however the Cavs would definitely not be as good with Kobe instead of Lebron. Lebron has managed to take a totally crappy team and make them into contenders.

[Metheny]

Its clear you guys didn't watch jordan play he would average more points this era is much much easier. Its also clear that the cavs offense and defense runs through lebron he elevates his team. They literally really are nothing without him.

[RsxPiimp]

the cavs are a playoff team without Lebron???
:lmao :lmao :lmao


wow... just wow

I already stated why I think they are,so care to explain why they wont be a playoff team without Lebron?



Mind you, their key players (Delonte, Mo Williams, Z and Varejao) have a positive +/- when Lebron is on the bench.

[hater]

as much as I hate it, gotta agree with cavfan

[TheMACHINE]

I'm not sure about that, however the Cavs would definitely not be as good with Kobe instead of Lebron. Lebron has managed to take a totally crappy team and make them into contenders.

Who says Kobe cant do that with the same squad?

[hater]

Who says Kobe cant do that with the same squad?

I do

[RsxPiimp]

Its clear you guys didn't watch jordan play he would average more points this era is much much easier. Its also clear that the cavs offense and defense runs through lebron he elevates his team. They literally really are nothing without him.

On paper, the Cavs are really nothing without Lebron but on the court the Cavs shares the same propensity in defense and hustling as the Rockets.

[hitmanyr2k]

Again, Pippen had help of a championship coach and playing in the same championship squad minus Jordan.

My point is Pippen did not singlehandedly accomplish that season.

Give Pippen a legit 20 point scorer to go alongside him in '94 and the Bulls are most likely back in the Finals that year without Jordan. You can't replace Jordan with a freakin CBA scrub in Pete Myers and talk championship.

[TheMACHINE]

I do

you're a hater so you dont count.

[hater]

you're a hater so you dont count.

true. But at least I acknowledge Lebron is the best current player and Jordan the best player ever.

I don't even like either

[TheMACHINE]

Mo Willaims
Kobe Bryant
JJ Hickson (im assuming)
Anderson Varejao
Shaquille Oneal

Thats not a bad team at all.

[hater]

Mo Willaims
Kobe Bryant
JJ Hickson (im assuming)
Anderson Varejao
Shaquille Oneal

Thats not a bad team at all.

not at all. But far from a championship contender.

[TheMACHINE]

true. But at least I acknowledge Lebron is the best current player and Jordan the best player ever.

I don't even like either

I acknowledged that Lebon is better than Kobe, but based on the same arguments acknowledge that Lebron is better then Jordan.

[TheMACHINE]

not at all. But far from a championship contender.

And why not?

[RsxPiimp]

not at all. But far from a championship contender.

I think it is. They'll lose in the Finals but I think surrounding Kobe with a defensive oriented team with guards that can shoot the lights out can be pretty initimdating.

[hater]

And why not?

just double Kobe every time. Noone else can really do anything offensively on a consistent basis.

[Metheny]

Give Pippen a legit 20 point scorer to go alongside him in '94 and the Bulls are most likely back in the Finals that year without Jordan. You can't replace Jordan with a freakin CBA scrub in Pete Myers and talk championship.



http://www.hoopsfans101.netau.net/1_12_Scottie-Pippen-overrated-.html

[TheMACHINE]

just double Kobe every time. Noone else can really do anything offensively on a consistent basis.

ohh i see...Lebrons 2 extra rebounds and 3 extra assists a game makes the Cavalers a title contendor. Damn..how did i miss that?! :rolleyes

[RsxPiimp]

http://www.hoopsfans101.netau.net/1_12_Scottie-Pippen-overrated-.html

The guy clearly had an agenda. He said Scottie does'nt belong in the original Dream Team, while ignoring the fact that the real player(s) who dont belong there are Chris Mullin and Christian Laetnner, Next!:lol

[RsxPiimp]

just double Kobe every time. Noone else can really do anything offensively on a consistent basis.

You think leaving 40% point shooters like Mo Williams and Booby Gibson are safe? That's their bread and butter. You dont think Delonte West is not threat? How about Z who is automatic from 15 feet? Shaq is still playing isn't he? JJ Hickson can probably score given a clear path in the basket.

[TheMACHINE]

You think leaving 40% point shooters like Mo Williams and Booby Gibson are safe? That's their bread and butter. You dont think Delonte West is not threat? How about Z who is automatic from 15 feet? Shaq is still playing isn't he? JJ Hickson can probably score given a clear path in the basket.

So the Cavs has the best player in the league along with the top 2 shooters in the league....yet people say they suck?!

[Metheny]

The guy clearly had an agenda. He said Scottie does'nt belong in the original Dream Team, while ignoring the fact that the real player(s) who dont belong there are Chris Mullin and Christian Laetnner, Next!:lol


Facts are facts though

[JamStone]

Actually, the Cavs have three players in the top 10 of 3PT% shooting. Anthony Parker is ranked fourth in the league.

[TheMACHINE]

Actually, the Cavs have three players in the top 10 of 3PT% shooting. Anthony Parker is ranked fourth in the league.

WTF! how bout big Z? Hows his 3pt shooting?!

[hater]

Actually, the Cavs have three players in the top 10 of 3PT% shooting. Anthony Parker is ranked fourth in the league.

last season Spurs had the same, Bonner, Manu, Mason. Look how far that got them.

[Metheny]

Its clear Jordan was essential to the bulls success look after jordan what did pippen do? nothing

[Metheny]

back to the lebron kobe debate its very quite clear that lebron is better player its Ridiculously clear actually.

[JamStone]

Its clear Jordan was essential to the bulls success look after jordan what did pippen do? nothing

He averaged 22/9/6, shot 49% from the field, was named All Star Game MVP, finished 3rd in League MVP voting, led a team full of scrubs to 55 regular season wins and a first round playoff series win, and took a pretty good New York Knicks team to 7 games.

A tad bit more than "nothing."

[TheMACHINE]

back to the lebron kobe debate its very quite clear that lebron is better player its Ridiculously clear actually.

ahh..just like its clear that Lebron is a better player then Jordan right?

[RsxPiimp]

How could I miss A. Parker?

[hater]

You think leaving 40% point shooters like Mo Williams and Booby Gibson are safe? That's their bread and butter. You dont think Delonte West is not threat? How about Z who is automatic from 15 feet? Shaq is still playing isn't he? JJ Hickson can probably score given a clear path in the basket.

let's see. Bonner + Mason also shoot over 40% . George Hill is as much a threat as West. McDyess is automatic from 15 feet. Blair is as much or better than old Shaq. Ian could probably score given a clear path.

Still, those Spurs don't even make the playoffs without Duncan, Parker and Manu.

[TheMACHINE]

Ok MiamiHeat

aka ChrisRichards

[FkLA]

Having good shooters and having talent are two completely different things. Those same shooters that are thriving with Bron would see their percentages drop without Bron drawing the defense on him. That is like saying that the pre-2005 Spurs (before Parker and Ginobili emerged as all-stars) were full of talent because the shooters that surrounded Duncan were continuously among the league leaders in 3 pt%. It makes no sense.

As far as talent goes, what Bron has and what Kobe has is not even comparable...Kobe has 4 players on his team that are more talented than the Cavs second best player. Lebron is leading his team to the best record out East and only a matter of time before it becomes the best in the league with less, there's no disputing that. Statistically he is better, his team is right up there as well despite having less talent. I dont get how these Laker homers have the audacity to still hang on to the notion that Kobe is better.

[RsxPiimp]

let's see. Bonner + Mason also shoot over 40% . George Hill is as much a threat as West. McDyess is automatic from 15 feet. Blair is as much or better than old Shaq. Ian could probably score given a clear path.

Still, those Spurs don't even make the playoffs without Duncan, Parker and Manu.

Dude, you took out 3 of the Spurs best players, of course they're going to miss the playoffs. :lol

[TheMACHINE]

let's see. Bonner + Mason also shoot over 40% . George Hill is as much a threat as West. McDyess is automatic from 15 feet. Blair is as much or better than old Shaq. Ian could probably score given a clear path.

Still, those Spurs don't even make the playoffs without Duncan, Parker and Manu.

Ahhhh...So you are saying Lebron would get Bonner, Mason, Hill and McDyess to the Finals.

[hater]

Dude, you took out 3 of the Spurs best players, of course they're going to miss the playoffs. :lol

same thing that happens when you take Lebron out. :toast

[TheMACHINE]

..Kobe has 4 players on his team that are more talented than the Cavs second best player.

name them

[hater]

Ahhhh...So you are saying Lebron would get Bonner, Mason, Hill and McDyess to the Finals.

and Blair. Not the finals but would definitely make the playoffs.

[TheMACHINE]

and Blair. Not the finals but would definitely make the playoffs.

then whats the point of all this...are we only talking about playoffs now?

[FkLA]

name them

Pau Gaysol, Andrew Crynum, Lamar Kardashian, and Crazy Ron?

[hater]

Having good shooters and having talent are two completely different things. Those same shooters that are thriving with Bron would see their percentages drop without Bron drawing the defense on him. That is like saying that the pre-2005 Spurs (before Parker and Ginobili emerged as all-stars) were full of talent because the shooters that surrounded Duncan were continuously among the league leaders in 3 pt%. It makes no sense.

As far as talent goes, what Bron has and what Kobe has is not even comparable...Kobe has 4 players on his team that are more talented than the Cavs second best player. Lebron is leading his team to the best record out East and only a matter of time before it becomes the best in the league with less, there's no disputing that. Statistically he is better, his team is right up there as well despite having less talent. I dont get how these Laker homers have the audacity to still hang on to the notion that Kobe is better.

:tu

not to mention Cavs stomped the shit out of Lakers head to head

[TheMACHINE]

Pau Gaysol, Andrew Crynum, Lamar Kardashian, and Crazy Ron?

Glad to be a Lakers Fan....One time All-star before heading to the Lakers Gasol, No time All-stars Lamar and Bynum and Crazy Ron is better then Mo Williams or Shaq.

[JamStone]

I think differently. The thing that separates Jordan from all of those other players in bold is that he stayed away from chucking the 3-ball. T-Mac, Vince, AI all played like idiots and in Vince's case STILL do :lol They're in love with the 3 pointer. Wade was pretty much a mini-Jordan. At 6'4 he was shooting a high percentage because he stuck with the midrange game and attacking the rim. Now he's playing like the rest of the idiots and chucking 3 balls and you're seeing it affect his efficiency. If Lebron wasn't chucking 3's he'd easily be way over 50% shooting...probably approaching Jordan's career high 54% mark. Even Kobe started playing smarter this year sticking with the midrange/post game and staying away from chucking 3's (which is why his percentage was so high at the beginning of the season) but he's fallen right back into his dumb habits of launching 3's as well. Jordan would easily hit 50% shooting in this weak era...especially with the rules the way they are now.

I've always said Jordan's b-ball IQ and willingness to work for the good shot always separated him from the mental midget swingmen of today and that's holds true.

But even Wade who up until last season didn't shoot many three pointers at all has not shot 50% from the field for an entire season, much less his career. He's never come close to sniffing 54% from the field.

I'm merely suggesting that while Jordan would still be a great, great player in today's NBA, I don't think he would have shot as high a field goal percentage playing in today's NBA. I think driving against better athletes, shooting over taller and longer defenders, and having more and more teams play good to above average defense would bring his averages down.

Could he be like a LeBron or Wade, shooting 47-50%? Sure, absolutely. But, that's not the same as shooting 52-54% and 50% for his entire career. I think that's the difference.



I agree with most the points you made, but Jeff Hornacek was a 50% shooter in the mid-ninties, against the bruising style of grind-it-out defenses. He was a dead-eye 3pt and mid range shooter, and he take smart shots. Him shooting over 50% is not an indication of how much defense sucked back then, it was more to do with how good he was as a shooter and the kind of shots he took.

Rolando Blackman, while not all that athletic, was a legit 6'6". He too was a fantastic mid-range shooter.

Athleticism has something to do with FG%, but even a guy like Steve Nash is shooting over 50% nowadays. Others like Jose Calderon and Ray Allen are up there as well. They did it through smart shot selection.

Very fair points with Hornacek and Blackman.

With respect to guys like Steve Nash and Jose Calderon, and for that matter Tony Parker and Chris Paul, I think it's not necessarily a good comparison. Those guys are players who are much more selective with their shot selection. As point guards, they aren't counted on to be 25-30 point per game scorers. Especially guys like Nash and Calderon, they generally take very good shots, don't force many bad shots, and when they shoot jumpers, they're usually open jumpers. Ray Allen hasn't been a 50% FG shooter, not even once in his career, not even close.

Your points are still fair. I'm not saying Michael Jordan wouldn't be a smart shooter in today's NBA. Or he wouldn't still be one of the best scorers in the league. He absolutely still would be. I'm just saying I think that 50% FG shooting for his "CAREER" is slightly skewed by the era he played in. I think in today's NBA, he'd be closer to 46-48% FG for his career.

[RsxPiimp]

Those same shooters that are thriving with Bron would see their percentages drop without Bron drawing the defense on him.

Thats bull crap man. Lebron's teammates were known to carry the the team when Lebron is having a horrendous shooting game. I just dont think people are giving them enough credit.


Lebron shot 42 % twice in a season series (Wizards and Nets in 2007) and the Cavs still won. And how can everyone forget Lebron's horrible series against the 2008 Celtics? Didnt he shoot under 30% for the first 2 games, and under 40% for the following games of that series? and Cleveland still pushed the Celtics on the brink of elimination.

[TheMACHINE]

:tu

not to mention Cavs stomped the shit out of Lakers head to head

thats right. Those two wins automatically make the Cavs better. thats is the same reason why Lakers were the Team of the Decade.

[RsxPiimp]

Pau Gaysol, Andrew Crynum, Lamar Kardashian, and Crazy Ron?

Lakers are top heavy, but the rest of the Cavs roster blows the Lakers away. Its all about balance. Id rather have a deep 10 man roatation than a solid 6.

[FkLA]

Glad to be a Lakers Fan....One time All-star before heading to the Lakers Gasol, No time All-stars Lamar and Bynum and Crazy Ron is better then Mo Williams or Shaq.

Shaq is done, so lets get that out of the way. This isnt the same Shaq that terrorized the league. As far as Mo, he is a one-time all-star as an injury replacement...who's main and basically only strength is scoring/shooting. Given the choice, Id definitely take all four of the players I mentioned over him.

[JamStone]

Having good shooters and having talent are two completely different things. Those same shooters that are thriving with Bron would see their percentages drop without Bron drawing the defense on him. That is like saying that the pre-2005 Spurs (before Parker and Ginobili emerged as all-stars) were full of talent because the shooters that surrounded Duncan were continuously among the league leaders in 3 pt%. It makes no sense.

As far as talent goes, what Bron has and what Kobe has is not even comparable...Kobe has 4 players on his team that are more talented than the Cavs second best player. Lebron is leading his team to the best record out East and only a matter of time before it becomes the best in the league with less, there's no disputing that. Statistically he is better, his team is right up there as well despite having less talent. I dont get how these Laker homers have the audacity to still hang on to the notion that Kobe is better.

Anthony Parker has a 42% career three point average. In two previous seasons, he shot 44% from three point range. He's at 45.4% right now playing next to LeBron. LeBron absolutely helps, but Parker has pretty much always been a very good three point shooter.

LeBron's helped Mo a lot more because in Milwaukee, he would force up more jumpers, sometimes off the dribble. In Cleveland, he gets a lot more swings and kick-outs where he has better, more open looks. But similarly, Mo Williams has been a pretty good three point shooter before he played with LeBron.

Damon Jones actually shot below his career three point average while playing with LeBron. As did Donyell Marshall. Wally Szczerbiak shot 40.0% from three as a Cavalier. Before playing in Cleveland, he was already a 40.7% three point shooter. Playing with LeBron kept him pretty much the same exact shooter.

[FkLA]

Those players are good shooters Im not trying to suggest otherwise. But they need great players to play off of...same for the numerous shooters that came through San Antonio and played off of Duncan. To suggest that shooters who for the most part cannot create their own shot are on par or close to players like Gaysol, Crynum, Kardashian, or Ron Ron is ridiculous. Shooters are a dime a dozen, 7 footers with post games or 6-10 point forwards with a complete game are not.

[RsxPiimp]

Those players are good shooters Im not trying to suggest otherwise. But they need great players to play off of...same for the numerous shooters that came through San Antonio and played off of Duncan. To suggest that shooters who for the most part cannot create their own shot are on par or close to players like Gaysol, Crynum, Kardashian, or Ron Ron is ridiculous. Shooters are a dime a dozen, 7 footers with post games or 6-10 point forwards with a complete game are not.

I dont disagree with this. But people need not to dismiss the Cavs team outside of Lebron. They already have a solid foundation there. Adding a great player (Wade, Lebron, Kobe, take your pick) with that cast is a winning formula regardless. So let's not act (not you) that that team's chances of being successful minus Lebron is non existent.

[JamStone]

I neither said nor suggested those shooters were better than Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum. I merely challenged your contention that I bolded.

I do think Kobe has more talent on his team. But, I also think LeBron has pretty good talent on his. Not the same as the Lakers or the Celtics, but very good talent, and talent that suits LeBron. Not that he couldn't play with two big post players, but that would also change LeBron's game. He wouldn't attack the rim nearly as much. He wouldn't push the ball in transition as much. Right now, he has Shaq who is limited and doesn't demand as many touches as he used to. Then he has Varejao who doesn't require touches and Z who shoots jumpers. That suits his skill set and what he likes to do pretty well. Now, talent-wise, you absolutely take Gasol and Bynum. But, some talk about LeBron's teammates as if they aren't good at all. That's not true. They may not be top 5 or top 10 players at their positions, but he has a few very good teammates and several solid role playing teammates who play those roles well.

[Baseline]

You must have wrote this back in 2006. Have you seen a game since then?

I live in LA and watch tons of Laker games - all for the joy of watching them lose. I actually have always liked the Lakers - until Bryant got there. I now give away tickets to Laker games because I can't stand Laker fans.

Why can I not stand Laker fans? Because all they do is cling to a guy like Bryant, who ran Shaquille (the guy responsible for bringing three titles to the city) out of town, then immediately cried to the front office to get him help.

The guy embodies the antithesis of team basketball, both on the court, and especially off the court. To me it's shameful that anybody would pull for this guy. Especially women. When I see a woman or little girl walking around in a Bryant jersey, my skin crawls. Do yourself a favor and read the police report from Colorado. The guy is, at best, a disgrace tot he League and to the storied Laker organization. And for Laker fans who continually say, "He wasn't convicted of any crime - he didn't do anything." Please, read the police report. It's all in Bryant's words talking about exactly what he did - at least what he admitteded to the police that he did. By the way, this is also when he mentioned Shaquille's name - a teammate - when Bryant himself was being questioned about an alleged sexual assault. Shaquille O'Neal wasn't even in the state of Colorado at the time.

The only positive thing I can say about Bryant is that he's able to put the ball in the hoop if he gets enough shots, and that's a ton of shots I might add. If that attribute makes Laker fans happy, so be it. He's a guy playing a team sport, but he's playing for himself. Always has, always will. That's obvious to fans of every other team in the league, but not to Laker fans.

Read the police report.

[JamStone]

You sound pretty objective and unbiased.

[djohn2oo8]

i live in la and watch tons of laker games - all for the joy of watching them lose. I actually have always liked the lakers - until bryant got there. I now give away tickets to laker games because i can't stand laker fans.

Why can i not stand laker fans? Because all they do is cling to a guy like bryant, who ran shaquille (the guy responsible for bringing three titles to the city) out of town, then immediately cried to the front office to get him help.

The guy embodies the antithesis of team basketball, both on the court, and especially off the court. To me it's shameful that anybody would pull for this guy. Especially women. When i see a woman or little girl walking around in a bryant jersey, my skin crawls. Do yourself a favor and read the police report from colorado. The guy is, at best, a disgrace tot he league and to the storied laker organization. And for laker fans who continually say, "he wasn't convicted of any crime - he didn't do anything." please, read the police report. It's all in bryant's words talking about exactly what he did - at least what he admitteded to the police that he did. By the way, this is also when he mentioned shaquille's name - a teammate - when bryant himself was being questioned about an alleged sexual assault. Shaquille o'neal wasn't even in the state of colorado at the time.

The only positive thing i can say about bryant is that he's able to put the ball in the hoop if he gets enough shots, and that's a ton of shots i might add. If that attribute makes laker fans happy, so be it. He's a guy playing a team sport, but he's playing for himself. Always has, always will. That's obvious to fans of every other team in the league, but not to laker fans.

Read the police report.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[j.dizzle]

:lmao at this thread going almost 10 pages over something that faggot reggie miller said.

[TheMACHINE]

I live in LA and watch tons of Laker games - all for the joy of watching them lose. I actually have always liked the Lakers - until Bryant got there. I now give away tickets to Laker games because I can't stand Laker fans.

Why can I not stand Laker fans? Because all they do is cling to a guy like Bryant, who ran Shaquille (the guy responsible for bringing three titles to the city) out of town, then immediately cried to the front office to get him help.

The guy embodies the antithesis of team basketball, both on the court, and especially off the court. To me it's shameful that anybody would pull for this guy. Especially women. When I see a woman or little girl walking around in a Bryant jersey, my skin crawls. Do yourself a favor and read the police report from Colorado. The guy is, at best, a disgrace tot he League and to the storied Laker organization. And for Laker fans who continually say, "He wasn't convicted of any crime - he didn't do anything." Please, read the police report. It's all in Bryant's words talking about exactly what he did - at least what he admitteded to the police that he did. By the way, this is also when he mentioned Shaquille's name - a teammate - when Bryant himself was being questioned about an alleged sexual assault. Shaquille O'Neal wasn't even in the state of Colorado at the time.

The only positive thing I can say about Bryant is that he's able to put the ball in the hoop if he gets enough shots, and that's a ton of shots I might add. If that attribute makes Laker fans happy, so be it. He's a guy playing a team sport, but he's playing for himself. Always has, always will. That's obvious to fans of every other team in the league, but not to Laker fans.

Read the police report.

blah blah blah...we know we know...you're not a Kobe fan. No one gives a fuck.

[namlook]

In my mind LBJ, Tim Duncan, Deron Williams, Pau Gasol.


Ouch....<crash> the sound of your credibility falling through the floor.

[cobbler]

the point is he made them relevant, when those guys were struggling to find a place in the NBA.

You have to forgive Hater. His Kobessesion blinds him to actual logic.

[ClippersDynasty]

FkLA is a god awful poster.

[cobbler]

Without a low post player Kobe has never done anything so of course if you give LeBron the same options he has this season he'd definantly elevate the team and probably wouldn't have choked on Garnett/Pierce cock like Kobe did either...what's new?

Pretty sure that Boston team went through the Cavs to get to the Lakers in 2008. Wasn't LBJ playing in 2008?

[cobbler]

I think Jordan had better overall numbers than Kobe besides scoring.

Plus, Kobe was only the team MVP in one of those championships. If Lebron can win just one title, he will have matched Kobe in that accomplishment.

Still Kobe is an all-time great and the best scorer and clutch shooter in the game while Lebron may be the better all around player. No reason to deny Kobe of that.

You know what gets me about this is you never heard anyone take away anything from Magics 5 championships because Worthy and Jabbar won the MVP in those runs. Nobody has said KG never won a title not being the go to guy. Bird wasnt the MVP on all his titles. It's all about the Kobe hate/obsession and nothing more.

MVP's are subjective opinions and nothing more. The very same media personal that posters bash about putting fueling the MJ/Kobe/LBJ debates are the very same who vote for the MVP's to begin with.

...and if you are going to make some idiotic comment on how Kobe was just another player of the 15 on those 3 peat years then save your breath for Miami/chris/harlem.

[Josepatches_]

And you are right, brown is an average player. But you barely heard about him, if at all, when he was on the cavs or bobcats.

Fail.

You heard about him because he was playing in the Lakers and he was the starting PG.The Lakers are the most famous team and everybody see them playing a lot of games every year.

You heard about Mbenga,Radmanovic,Vujacic,Kwame Brown......everybody know their players but not because they play better.Pau Gasol had the same numbers in Memphis but he only was one time all-star. Lamar Odom was better in the past but now he's more famous.

[jacobdrj]

JamStone, you made some very good observations. However, I submit that you may have made a fallacy of correlation: I submit that it is Phil Jackson that makes his players better. Kobe didn't make anyone better in 2005 under Rudy T. I think before 2005, Phil was a good ego manager. I think in 2006 he proved his is the real deal, a team builder and a game/ego manager. Phil knows how to use a bench, even a bench of crappy crappy players.

[cobbler]

Is Gasol a Hall of Famer?

My point is you are so trying to nit-pick and reach for ways to say that MJ>Lebron but wont use the same arguments for Kobe.

uhhh cause he's a idiot. He just made the comment that the league is diluted down now as opposed to when the bulls started winning championships due to contending franchises injuries or core players winding down their careers (Lakers, Pistons) and league expansion.

"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."
-Dennis Rodman, starting power forward for the 1995-96 Chicago Bulls

[MiamiHeat]

"At least 50 times. I've jumped off a building, jumped off a cliff in a car. I've been in bedrooms when women came in with knives and guns. "

- Dennis Rodman

http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/imagesdennis-20rodman1.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

"Chemistry is a class you take in high school or college, where you figure out two plus two is 10, or something. "

- Dennis Rodman

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yPWyFZEdY0s/Scm_5fu5njI/AAAAAAAAJnM/NB81AEH2zHU/s400/0_61_102506_dennis_rodman.jpg

[cobbler]

No surprises here, this is something everyone but Laker homers realize. Lebron has a more complete offensive game in the sense that he isnt just a scorer but also a facilitator. Not to mention the fact that he isnt the type of player that will shoot 30 times every game in order to get his stats all while accumulating a grand total of about 3 assists. Defensively, Artest always guards the opposing teams best swingman so there is no drop off there. Lebron will just guard the scrubs that Kobe usually guards.

Lebron averages 6.8 assists career. Kobe 4.6 Kobe, other than the forst 2 years where he came off the bench has always averaged around 4 or 5 a game so your 3 assists comment is total fabrication on your part. If your going to hate... at least hate with facts.

[cobbler]

Did a Laker fan really just talk shit about refs and Stern playing favorites, really? Really?!? Really?!? After having Gasol gift wrapped, after obvious and blatant favoritism for the Lakers in the playoffs (Kings WCF most notably), after Stern himself came out and said his dream Finals matchup is "Lakers vs Lakers"", etc, etc, etc.

Also you act like Kobe doesnt get the same shit calls that Lebron does. Sit the fuck down son, Laker fans are the last people that should be complaining about Bron getting calls.

The fact that Timmy gets those very same calls didint sit you down talking about Kobe's calls did it. You cannot even follow your own advice! :lmao

[Nathan Explosion]

I agree with Miller, but again, Jordan fanatics should answer this question.



Using the same logic. Would a prime Michael Jordan make this Cavs a better team?



Without Pippen, no he would'nt. So Lebron>Jordan?



Think about it

I'd take Jordan over Lebron, but even I have to admit that if Lebron becomes truly focused on winning and harnasses his abilities to the fullest, he's going to end up the greatest ever. There's too much talent, athleticism and natural ability in that body not to achieve that status if the above conditions are met.

[cobbler]

Kobe has better court-vision than Bron? Ridiculous. As far as Kobe being a better playmaker, I'll give you the fact that Kobe has the tools to be as good of a playmaker as Bron. But like you said he just doesnt have that willingness to be that, he thrives on scoring. As far as being a playmaker and facilitator Bron wins the comparison hands down, its not even that close either.


Do you even watch Laker games other than the few on national tv every year? Kobe has been the leading assist man on the team for the decade. Not even close? Lebron averages 2 assists more per game in a system in which he has his hands on the ball 80% of the time in playmaking mode. Kobe plays in the triangle where ball movement is required. Yes, he gets out of that mode and has to be reminded every so often but to call LBJ a playmaker and Kobe not is just pure ignorance.

[Banzai]

thank goodness no one compares LBJ to Jordan.

[Nathan Explosion]

[QUOTE=FkLA;4036594]Kobe has better court-vision than Bron? Ridiculous. As far as Kobe being a better playmaker, I'll give you the fact that Kobe has the tools to be as good of a playmaker as Bron. But like you said he just doesnt have that willingness to be that, he thrives on scoring. As far as being a playmaker and facilitator Bron wins the comparison hands down, its not even that close either.
/[QUOTE]

Do you even watch Laker games other than the few on national tv every year? Kobe has been the leading assist man on the team for the decade. Not even close? Lebron averages 2 assists more per game in a system in which he has his hands on the ball 80% of the time in playmaking mode. Kobe plays in the triangle where ball movement is required. Yes, he gets out of that mode and has to be reminded every so often but to call LBJ a playmaker and Kobe not is just pure ignorance.

That creative offense that the Cavs run is the Lebron on 5 offense. If Mike Brown knew how to actually coach and offense, the Cavs would be better.

[hitmanyr2k]

You know what gets me about this is you never heard anyone take away anything from Magics 5 championships because Worthy and Jabbar won the MVP in those runs. Nobody has said KG never won a title not being the go to guy. Bird wasnt the MVP on all his titles. It's all about the Kobe hate/obsession and nothing more.

It's because no one was trying to put Magic, Bird, or KG on a level they don't belong on :lol

Some delusional Laker fans out there believe Kobe should be in the talks of G.O.A.T because he finally led his team to ONE title. And they think Kobe's 4 ring total somehow correlates to Jordan's 6 but never factor in the way Jordan and Kobe won their championships. Sometimes you have to remind these kind of fools that Jordan won 6 titles as bonafide numero uno. When Kobe won his first title he was a inconsistent rising star mixing good games with some downright atrocious ones. Yet, Kobe homers want to ignore that and scream "Kobe has 4 rings, put him up there with MJ" :lol

Of course people are gonna argue against that shit.

[cobbler]

true. But at least I acknowledge Lebron is the best current player and Jordan the best player ever.

I don't even like either

and you are wrong on both counts. GO figure.

[cobbler]

true. But at least I acknowledge Lebron is the best current player and Jordan the best player ever.

I don't even like either

and you are wrong on both counts. Go figure.

[cobbler]

last season Spurs had the same, Bonner, Manu, Mason. Look how far that got them.

But they didnt have the GOD of basketball on their team. LBJ could take a high school team to the finals and win he is so gifted!

Sadly though... he hasn't yet. hmmmmmm

[HarlemHeat37]

I actually agree with Al-Quobe when they say he doesn't get the same calls as those other guys..he really doesn't, same with Duncan..I think it's because of how much they complain, it would make sense..they DO get superstar calls, but definitely not on the top level..

As for the topic here, Lebron is obviously better than Kobe, I don't see how there's an argument..I would understand if Lebron played poorly in the playoffs last year, but he didn't..he's simply the more dominant player, especially this season with Kobe's shooting struggles, which was one of his main advantages over Lebron..

Al-Quobe is an organization that reeks of hypocrisy..they are very creative with their arguments, and they've subtly shifted their arguments as Kobe's career has changed/evolved..

The best part is when they play the "supporting cast" argument with Kobe vs. Lebron(with Wade last year as well)..it was pretty much the complete opposite when Kobe was the one with the lesser supporting cast..they would argue that winning didn't matter, because Kobe just didn't have the supporting cast to do it..when the argument was Kobe vs. Duncan and Timmy was winning titles, their argument was that Duncan's supporting cast was a lot better(which was obviously true) and pointed to Kobe's scoring stats and #s in general..

When Lebron's fans do the same, Al-Quobe doesn't accept it..

This is also funny, because in MVP rankings last year with Kobe-Wade, Al-Quobe played AGAINST the angle that they used themselves in the Kobe vs. Nash argument back in 2006..

Just let it go both ways..

[cobbler]

Pau Gaysol, Andrew Crynum, Lamar Kardashian, and Crazy Ron?

gotta love this.... he points out 4 players and uses nicknames given them do as a diss to thier qualities.

[cobbler]

I live in LA and watch tons of Laker games - all for the joy of watching them lose. I actually have always liked the Lakers - until Bryant got there. I now give away tickets to Laker games because I can't stand Laker fans.

Why can I not stand Laker fans? Because all they do is cling to a guy like Bryant, who ran Shaquille (the guy responsible for bringing three titles to the city) out of town, then immediately cried to the front office to get him help.

The guy embodies the antithesis of team basketball, both on the court, and especially off the court. To me it's shameful that anybody would pull for this guy. Especially women. When I see a woman or little girl walking around in a Bryant jersey, my skin crawls. Do yourself a favor and read the police report from Colorado. The guy is, at best, a disgrace tot he League and to the storied Laker organization. And for Laker fans who continually say, "He wasn't convicted of any crime - he didn't do anything." Please, read the police report. It's all in Bryant's words talking about exactly what he did - at least what he admitteded to the police that he did. By the way, this is also when he mentioned Shaquille's name - a teammate - when Bryant himself was being questioned about an alleged sexual assault. Shaquille O'Neal wasn't even in the state of Colorado at the time.

The only positive thing I can say about Bryant is that he's able to put the ball in the hoop if he gets enough shots, and that's a ton of shots I might add. If that attribute makes Laker fans happy, so be it. He's a guy playing a team sport, but he's playing for himself. Always has, always will. That's obvious to fans of every other team in the league, but not to Laker fans.

Read the police report.

What a friggen baby. As usual, when you have nothing of merit to produce, pull out the rape card. Thanks for that insight that we have heard a bizillion times from the others obsessed with Kobe.

[cobbler]

It's because no one was trying to put Magic, Bird, or KG on a level they don't belong on :lol

Some delusional Laker fans out there believe Kobe should be in the talks of G.O.A.T because he finally led his team to ONE title. And they think Kobe's 4 ring total somehow correlates to Jordan's 6 but never factor in the way Jordan and Kobe won their championships. Sometimes you have to remind these kind of fools that Jordan won 6 titles as bonafide numero uno. When Kobe won his first title he was a inconsistent rising star mixing good games with some downright atrocious ones. Yet, Kobe homers want to ignore that and scream "Kobe has 4 rings, put him up there with MJ" :lol

Of course people are gonna argue against that shit.


So you are saying of the Lakers go on to win 4 more titles with Kobe as the #1 then he deserves to be in the talk? Bullshit. The Lakers could win the next 5 in a row and we would still hear this argument. Just as before we heard he's never been the #1 option, then last year he was, and now its not enough. Come on. I really could care less especially since I have several players above MJ or Kobe for that matter as the GOAT. What matters when it is all said and done is titles and Kobe will end up with more than MJ. MJ and Magic had their little competition who would get the most. MJ won. It had nothing to do with who was the #1 option. If you ask how many titles they got you will hear...MJ got 6 and Magic got 5 (regardless that Worthy and Jabbar were the MVP's for 2 of those. You ask how many Kobe got... you will hear 1 as the #1 option. This is all about the Kobe hate and nothing more. It's what the Miami/Chris/Harlems live for.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL @ Gobbler's last few lines..he's so sad..

I give Kobe credit where he's due..he has 1 title as a #1 option, 2 titles as #1a option, and 1 title as a #2 option..these are facts, you can't just ignore it..

He's one of the best scorers of all-time, he's had a lot of great playoff series', he's had 1 great NBA Finals..he's had a couple of poor Finals and 1 historically bad Finals series..he has a deserved NBA MVP award, he has numerous scoring records, he has 1 Finals MVP award..

He has a very sexy list of accolades..it just isn't nearly as good as his fans want us to believe, there's no shame in that..

[Kori Ellis]

FkLA is a god awful poster.

I took out your avatar. Several people thought it was too much.

[cobbler]

Oh...I am anything but sad. We won the title last year. We have the best or 2nd best (% points) record as of now and have a solid chance of repeating. To be honest, I rarely see your posts anymore as I put quite a few on the ole ignore list. When i say few I am refering to usernames and not the actual person since you are 3 of them. Kudos for that! It just gets old hearing the same stuff over and over. I occasionally see your posts befor I log in (such as this one) and will make a comment.

The best part of it all is that Kobe will win his 7th and top MJ and all this will get revisitied ad nauseum for the next several years and for what? Neither Kobe or MJ is the GOAT. Go figure.