Some thoughts on Tony Parker

[mazerrackham]

As we all know, Tony has struggled through injuries this season and has failed to contribute at as high of a level as his all-star year last year. But perhaps this is not only due to his injury, but is also due to the personnel changes this team has undergone. Let me elaborate...
Tony is at his best when he plays with Duncan and three knock down three point shooters. I honestly think that has been part of the problem this season. While Jefferson is versatile, he struggles to be a consistent shooter, as does Bogans. And while Dejuan Blair is a beast of physicality, he can't spread the floor. All of this adds up to less driving lanes for Parker, and more contested shots due to the congestion. With Parker out, the Spurs have to move the ball more and get everyone involved, which with the talent on our team, works pretty well. I don't know what the Spurs should do about this, but I think this observation is valid. Playing Matt Bonner, Roger Mason, and Finley last year in the starting line up with Tony gave him open lanes because their defenders could not leave them open. I think the Spurs definitely have to make a more concerted effort of moving the ball from side to side rather than having Tony-Tim dominated pick and roll basketball. The problem is, however, that Tony doesn't bring as much to the offense when he's playing off the ball. Anyway, just some thoughts...

[ezau]

I agree with this. Tony needs the ball in his hands all the time to be effective. As a PG, he's a mediocre passer and he doesn't let many players involved when he's on the court. I think he needs to adjust his game by becoming more pass-oriented than in previous years. With the depth and talent of the Spurs this year, him dribbling and penetrating is becoming more and more obsolete. Honestly, I predicted that the Spurs will win this game without Tony.

[weebo]

Parker should just come off the bench along with Bonner, Mase, Blair, and Fin/Bogans. In this line up, he would be surrounded by shooters allowing him to do what he does best. Plus he would torch any second unit, even with his injury. Start Manu at the 2 and Hill at the 1 with Timmy, RJ, and Dice.

[TJastal]

As we all know, Tony has struggled through injuries this season and has failed to contribute at as high of a level as his all-star year last year. But perhaps this is not only due to his injury, but is also due to the personnel changes this team has undergone. Let me elaborate...
Tony is at his best when he plays with Duncan and three knock down three point shooters. I honestly think that has been part of the problem this season. While Jefferson is versatile, he struggles to be a consistent shooter, as does Bogans. And while Dejuan Blair is a beast of physicality, he can't spread the floor. All of this adds up to less driving lanes for Parker, and more contested shots due to the congestion. With Parker out, the Spurs have to move the ball more and get everyone involved, which with the talent on our team, works pretty well. I don't know what the Spurs should do about this, but I think this observation is valid. Playing Matt Bonner, Roger Mason, and Finley last year in the starting line up with Tony gave him open lanes because their defenders could not leave them open. I think the Spurs definitely have to make a more concerted effort of moving the ball from side to side rather than having Tony-Tim dominated pick and roll basketball. The problem is, however, that Tony doesn't bring as much to the offense when he's playing off the ball. Anyway, just some thoughts...

excellent observations.

[ChumpDumper]

The pile-on begins.

Or continues.

Whatever.

[5in10]

. I think he needs to adjust his game by becoming more pass-oriented than in previous years. .

You cant just ask a player to become something he's not. He doesn't have that kind of mentality and never will, and you cant ask him not to be tony. The spurs have won 3 championships with him playing the way he is, and its ridiculous to think that he can just turn on the switch to become a pass first point guard.

[ezau]

Parker should just come off the bench along with Bonner, Mase, Blair, and Fin/Bogans. In this line up, he would be surrounded by shooters allowing him to do what he does best. Plus he would torch any second unit, even with his injury. Start Manu at the 2 and Hill at the 1 with Timmy, RJ, and Dice.

Agree with this completely

[ezau]

You cant just ask a player to become something he's not. He doesn't have that kind of mentality and never will, and you cant ask him not to be tony. The spurs have won 3 championships with him playing the way he is, and its ridiculous to think that he can just turn on the switch to become a pass first point guard.

Here we go again. All I'm saying is for Tony to prioritize passing more than scoring. He's done in the Spurs' previous games prior to his injury. I don't see any reason why he won't be able to do it. Am I asking him to play like Nash or Paul? Hell no. He just needs to realize that this team is a lot more effective when the ball is moving than him overdribbling.

[ivanfromwestwood]

You cant just ask a player to become something he's not. He doesn't have that kind of mentality and never will, and you cant ask him not to be tony. The spurs have won 3 championships with him playing the way he is, and its ridiculous to think that he can just turn on the switch to become a pass first point guard.
in other news, you cant turn a hoe into a house wife. tony is a hoe.lol

also bruce bowen was there to shut down every good player from the pg to the pf during those champs.

[timvp]

The pile-on begins.

Or continues.

Whatever.

:lol Exactly. This is the most obvious turn of events on ST. Like clockwork.

Parker's struggles this season are almost entirely due to injuries. He has had some struggles adjusting to the altered personnel around him but not more than any other player on the team. When he's moving freely and not limping around the court, he's still an All-Star level asset.

The theory that the lack of shooters is hurting Parker just doesn't jive with reality. He's finishing fine at the rim -- even better than last season. His dip in offensive production is due to a drop in his own perimeter shooting percentage.

The Spurs have enough talent to win with only two healthy members of the Big 3. In fact, the Spurs are 3-0 this season without Duncan and 4-1 without Manu. With this latest win, the Spurs are now 3-2 without Parker ... so it's not like Parker sitting out is the secret to Spurs success.

Saying Parker should come off the bench or that the Spurs are better with Hill as the point guard is just crazy talk. For the Spurs to win a championship, they need TP playing at a high level. They have no shot at winning it all with a gimpy Parker or with him playing a reduced role. He's by far the best PG on the team (he's arguably the only PG on the team), he's the best playmaker on the team (Manu is very possibly the better passer but even then TP would easily be the second best passer on the team) and Parker getting easy buckets off penetration is the lifeblood of the team's offense. He has flaws but when healthy he's definitely an elite point guard in the NBA.

I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate. For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing. I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position.

[ForeignFan]

+ 100000

[xellos88330]

:lol Exactly. This is the most obvious turn of events on ST. Like clockwork.

Parker's struggles this season are almost entirely due to injuries. He has had some struggles adjusting to the altered personnel around him but not more than any other player on the team. When he's moving freely and not limping around the court, he's still an All-Star level asset.

The theory that the lack of shooters is hurting Parker just doesn't jive with reality. He's finishing fine at the rim -- even better than last season. His dip in offensive production is due to a drop in his own perimeter shooting percentage.

The Spurs have enough talent to win with only two healthy members of the Big 3. In fact, the Spurs are 3-0 this season without Duncan and 4-1 without Manu. With this latest win, the Spurs are now 3-2 without Parker ... so it's not like Parker sitting out is the secret to Spurs success.

Saying Parker should come off the bench or that the Spurs are better with Hill as the point guard is just crazy talk. For the Spurs to win a championship, they need TP playing at a high level. They have no shot at winning it all with a gimpy Parker or with him playing a reduced role. He's by far the best PG on the team (he's arguably the only PG on the team), he's the best playmaker on the team (Manu is very possibly the better passer but even then TP would easily be the second best passer on the team) and Parker getting easy buckets off penetration is the lifeblood of the team's offense. He has flaws but when healthy he's definitely an elite point guard in the NBA.

I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate. For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing. I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position.

I am curious to see how Parker will perform coming off the bench. My main reasoning for this is to get him some rest. Hill played great last night in the starting position. Who knows, maybe it will be just what the doctor ordered for Parker.

[Pauleta14]

I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate. For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing. I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position.

:toast

I just REALLY don't understand...

3 rings
3 time allstar
1 mvp of the finals
+10000pts at 50% shooting
...

WTF guys?
What really is your problem ith Tony?
You don't like his face? his wife? what?

Even if I'm french, I'm not even a TP homer...
My favorit Spur is/used to be (:lol) Manu!
But come on!!!
How can you all be that blinded???
Can't you see what he brings to the team?
Are you all conservative freaks???
He doesn't play like a classic PG (whitch is a good thing for the "excute plays" system of the spurs by the way), but THERE IS NO "CLASSIC" PG THAT CAN DO WHAT HE DOES!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!

He'll stay in history as one of the best finisher ever!!!
Do you realise how difficult it is to shoot at 50%? For 8 years? for so many games?
When he is not great (like this year), he is still our 2nd most productive player!!!!
I even read some of you who minimized his production in 2003! He was our 2nd best player even if he strugled!!!!!!!
Hearing you, S.Claxton was better than Tony!!:lol

Start watching what he brings and not only what he doesn't, it's just not fair to him...
Imagine you did the same with Manu!!!
All the dumb plays, the TOs, the last two years, the game 7 Nowitski fault...
Imagine if it was Tony...

You don't have to love the guy, but at least show him some respect!

I mean:
Quote
"Tony should come off the bench".......:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Really? That the best your can bring to the debate?

[Pauleta14]

I am curious to see how Parker will perform coming off the bench. My main reasoning for this is to get him some rest. Hill played great last night in the starting position. Who knows, maybe it will be just what the doctor ordered for Parker.


So, basicaly, you think that Hill is a better playmaker/PG that Tony? :wow
It's just absurd man, really...
He is far from being better than Tony at running the show!!
Even if Hill was a real PG, he wouldn't have the "legitimity" of starting ahead of Tony...
+ We already have Manu coming off the bench!

Instead of thinking Tony should change some things, YOU should all start changing the way you see him!!!!
He's been there for 9 years! Why the fuck should he change???
It would be like the veterans adapting their game for rookie/sophomores?!?

:downspin:

[lennyalderette]

yes theres been a major turn on parker you know why????? BECAUSE EVERY ASPECT OF HIS GAME HAS BEEN EXPOSED!!!!!!!!
seriously how in the hell can tim duncan be putting up mvp numbers and assists with new players, how come hill is playing well with everyone new? how about ginobili he is also coming off injury but hes passionate and is working through it, he also does whatever it takes to win.

yes i know parker isnt 100 % but thats exactly why were freaked out because if hes not scoring 20+ hes a liability!!! this is the first year he couldnt rely on bruces defense to carry his weight around.

im just saying that now that we have options when hes not on the floor ex: hill in contrast we see al the intagibles he has never done but we never asked why? because someone would pick up the slack. i just think if theres thousands of people saying "parker is a liability alot of the time" well most likely theres some merit to it!! and i know what the hell im seeing every game from parker

[TJastal]

He doesn't play like a classic PG (whitch is a good thing for the "excute plays" system of the spurs by the way), but THERE IS NO "CLASSIC" PG THAT CAN DO WHAT HE DOES!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!


Still trying to figure out WTF this exactly means.....

[kace]

I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate. For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing. I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position.


:toast

I just REALLY don't understand...

3 rings
3 time allstar
1 mvp of the finals
+10000pts at 50% shooting
...

WTF guys?
What really is your problem ith Tony?
You don't like his face? his wife? what?



Why the TP hate here ?

well, some people may find him arrogant. some others may love pass first PG (though you see them giving props to PG like D-Rose) etc etc......

but honestly, you'll probably see that 90 % of these haters are manu's die hard fans (especially argentines ones). you won't see much TP haters bashing manu.

that's just the way it is.

obviously, i won't say that TP is flawless and didnn't ever deserve a thread questionning him. but why so many, so often, when you never see one to give him props ??


well, clearly, the conclusion is quite simple here. TP, as the other backcourt spurs star, could make some shadow to manu and they just can't bear that. As stupid as this is, that's basically the reason. and these guys are very very vocals here. Way more than the TP's fans who almost always like manu (hey, i love TP but i'm not even sure i've started a thread to praise him for the last 4 years that i'm here).

[Muser]

Bring Tony off the bench? Some people are fucking retarded.

[Pauleta14]

[quote=lennyalderette;4040965]yes theres been a major turn on parker you know why????? BECAUSE EVERY ASPECT OF HIS GAME HAS BEEN EXPOSED!!!!!!!!
seriously how in the hell can tim duncan be putting up mvp numbers and assists with new players,

That has nothing to do with Tony...

how come hill is playing well with everyone new?

I love what he brings, but he is not even close to being as good as Tony...

how about ginobili he is also coming off injury but hes passionate and is working through it, he also does whatever it takes to win.

Really? So Manu playing through injuries means he is a pationate, and what about Tony? (no passion?)

yes i know parker isnt 100 % but thats exactly why were freaked out because if hes not scoring 20+ hes a liability!!!

:lol So he has been a liability 7 years/8 since he is a spur??!!!

I've seen your name many time, so I gess your are not new here and you know some BB, but please don't make that king of BS statement!!!
Even if he doesn't score, the work Tony is doing by penetrating the paint constantly (and that is not in the boxscore) is ESSENTIAL for the team...
And averaging 6 or 7 assist with the spur system is not THAT bad! (ok he is no Nash or Paul, I know..)


Look I'm not making any excuses for Parker lack of D sometimes or the lack of assists in his game...

I'm just saying, the guys has been here for 9 years!!!!
It has work with him before and he was the same player!! he is has been better everyyear he's been here!!
Without him we wouldn't even have made the PO last year...

And now that he strugles (for many "understandable reasons), nobody here is "excusing" him or giving him time to adjust or be in a better shape !!!

Manu is allowed to do ANYTING, it's fine, everybody always find excuses...
Hill makes some good plays and suddenly he should start!
Mason doing nothing....
RJ ... no comment!

Timmy is the only one who he brings more than (a half :lol) Tony!!!!!

I'l just saying "give him a break", he has earn the right to be less productive sometimes...

I've noticed that the criticisms are very "agressive" toward Tony, it's not only the comments/opinions I have a pb with..
You can feel the hate in most of the comments!


One last thing, you should ask yourself (do an investigation?lol) what do opposite coaches and players think of Tony...

Ever heard of the expression "the head of the snake"????

[sonic21]

yes theres been a major turn on parker you know why????? BECAUSE EVERY ASPECT OF HIS GAME HAS BEEN EXPOSED!!!!!!!!

let's all be friends.
http://buttaball.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tony-manu-247x300.jpg


seriously how in the hell can tim duncan be putting up mvp numbers and assists with new players

he's a superstar :wakeup


how come hill is playing well with everyone new?

he's healthy (and he's good).


how about ginobili he is also coming off injury but hes passionate and is working through it, he also does whatever it takes to win.

but he's not having a good year.


yes i know parker isnt 100 % but thats exactly why we're celebrating because that means more playing time for manu

fify

[Bukefal]

Kace, nice prediction you had yesterday, its starting already. I love it how predictable people are :lol

The thing is, TP will never be appreciated by most of the Spurs fans. It's never good enough. He will never live up to them, no matter what he does or how good he is. So, it has nothing to do with his performance, but rather personal hate against him or that he is a french, I just cant think of anything else. They don't realize what TP has done for us over the years, he deserves some props, or at least some basic respect and that's something the fans can't even give him.

Parker coming from the bench? Hill being better at first pg than parker? Come on, are you serious? that's just crazy thinking. And yes a player can and should be criticized and yes TP isnt doing good this season, that sucks, I know, he is tired and with the injuries also, that sucks. But come on, this is just insane, he deserves better than that. Man, with his accomplishments and his profile for this team, the fans should always back him up and respect the guy

[Bukefal]

Im glad timvp is realistic and closes the stupid threads regarding this immediately :toast :lol


And the manu-tp competition some people are talking about, that's just ridiculous. Why would you compete these two and bash eachother? They are both of significance for our team, they are both great and 2 different players. It's pointless

[kace]

answer to lennywhatever


answer to lennywhatever

i wasted many posts and time trying to argue with unfair TP's bashers, but with this one, it's just useless my friends:



god i guess i am a parker hater! i really dont like his game

at least, he's clear and honest.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's actually kind of funny..

I agree with Kace's point that a lot of Spurs fans seem to knock TP for being a shoot-first PG while showing love to guys like Rose..but you don't even have to use an example like Rose, we have an example on our own team..

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..

[kace]

It's actually kind of funny..

I agree with Kace's point that a lot of Spurs fans seem to knock TP for being a shoot-first PG while showing love to guys like Rose..but you don't even have to use an example like Rose, we have an example on our own team..

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..

yes, but you'll see them saying that Hill can score like TP (which is false), has the same PG skills (which is damn false) and is better on defense (which is true).

well, after all those years waiting for a decent backup, you would think people could enjoy seeing a young one who can even play SG. well, i guess most fans do indeed.

[Pauleta14]

Still trying to figure out WTF this exactly means.....

:lol

Sorry I don't always find the right words/expressions...

I meant that the spurs are not a "catch and shoot" team!
The playbooks are very different compared to most of the teams in the league.
There are far less improvisation, we either execute a drawn play, or we work more to find the open man than the average...
So the PG isn't necessarely the one who gives the last pass...

+ Adding the fact that our 3 best players are capable of creating their own shots, it take some ass off Tony's stat line...

[ShoogarBear]

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..

Hill isn't even a point guard. He's a small two guard who can handle the ball and doesn't turn it over much.

Assists per 36 min, career:
Ray Allen 3.6
Point Guard George Hill 3.5

[Pauleta14]

It's actually kind of funny..

I agree with Kace's point that a lot of Spurs fans seem to knock TP for being a shoot-first PG while showing love to guys like Rose..but you don't even have to use an example like Rose, we have an example on our own team..

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..


+1 :lol

I thouht about it and forgot to mention it too.. this is so absurd!!!!

[Pauleta14]

Hill isn't even a point guard. He's a small two guard who can handle the ball and doesn't turn it over much.

Assists per 36 min, career:
Ray Allen 3.6
Point Guard George Hill 3.5



It reminds me the way Pop wanted to change Tony into a pass 1st PG and finaly changing his mind a taking Tony for who he is...

I hope he does the same with Hill, and not try too much to turn him into a real PG that he is not...

I really like what he brings and his mentality, but he is no PG...

Tony playmaking skills look fantastic compared to him! :lol

[TJastal]

They are both shoot first PG, but Hill does most of his shooting on the fast breaks where he is (I think) even better than Tony.

What I like about Hill

In the half court setting Hill keeps the ball moving crisply which helps find good % open shots for teammates. Parker otoh does alot of dribbling and 1 on 5. Which pretty much leaves the offensive production at the mercy of how Tony is doing/feeling/hobbling/ that particular night.

I'll give Tony some props, he does seem to be at least trying (at times) to get others involved. And I'll agree that when he's 100% healthy he can carry an offense practically all by himself. But it may be awhile before we see that Tony again. :(

[Pauleta14]

They are both shoot first PG, but Hill does most of his shooting on the fast breaks where he is (I think) even better than Tony.


Really? Isn't Tony known as a "one man fast break" in the league?
Hill is very good but not better.






Parker otoh does alot of dribbling and 1 on 5. Which pretty much leaves the offensive production at the mercy of how Tony is doing/feeling/hobbling/ that particular night.

When you listen to opposite coach, that one of the reason he is a pain in the ass...
I agree that he sometimes keep the ball too long, but the way he changes direction is very hard to deal with collectively...
Spurs fan don't realize how difficult it is to contain a player like Tony (when heathy of course).
He HAS to stay a constant threat in the paint, that opens a lot of space ... (just ask Mason or Bonner!)




I'll give Tony some props, he does seem to be at least trying (at times) to get others involved. And I'll agree that when he's 100% healthy he can carry an offense practically all by himself. But it may be awhile before we see that Tony again. :(

:nope We already have seen this Tony this year, the pb is that it was only for 1 or 2 quaters...

[ThaiFanofSpurs]

Just a thought. Maybe because Hill dunks more while TP hardly dunks in the game. I still think that TP deserves more respect from the Spurs' fans. Well, people think differently and you can't tell other people to think the same way you do. Wait until the playoffs come, I think Spurs' fans will see more of how valuable TP is to the team. During this time, we should just wish TP, TD, Manu, and all the players healthy for the playoff run. Go Spurs Go!

[L.I.T]

It's actually kind of funny..

I agree with Kace's point that a lot of Spurs fans seem to knock TP for being a shoot-first PG while showing love to guys like Rose..but you don't even have to use an example like Rose, we have an example on our own team..

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..

This post.

Newbie Spurs fans constantly seem to fixate on whatever is new and shiny.

Hell, if you go by NuSpurFan we would have a starting lineup of Hill/Hairston/James White!/Pops Mensa Boom Boom + Tim Duncan (but only until The Gist! returns or Blair gets more experience).

[ezau]

:toast

I just REALLY don't understand...

3 rings
3 time allstar
1 mvp of the finals
+10000pts at 50% shooting
...

WTF guys?
What really is your problem ith Tony?
You don't like his face? his wife? what?

Even if I'm french, I'm not even a TP homer...
My favorit Spur is/used to be (:lol) Manu!
But come on!!!
How can you all be that blinded???
Can't you see what he brings to the team?
Are you all conservative freaks???
He doesn't play like a classic PG (whitch is a good thing for the "excute plays" system of the spurs by the way), but THERE IS NO "CLASSIC" PG THAT CAN DO WHAT HE DOES!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!

He'll stay in history as one of the best finisher ever!!!
Do you realise how difficult it is to shoot at 50%? For 8 years? for so many games?
When he is not great (like this year), he is still our 2nd most productive player!!!!
I even read some of you who minimized his production in 2003! He was our 2nd best player even if he strugled!!!!!!!
Hearing you, S.Claxton was better than Tony!!:lol

Start watching what he brings and not only what he doesn't, it's just not fair to him...
Imagine you did the same with Manu!!!
All the dumb plays, the TOs, the last two years, the game 7 Nowitski fault...
Imagine if it was Tony...

You don't have to love the guy, but at least show him some respect!

I mean:
Quote
"Tony should come off the bench".......:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Really? That the best your can bring to the debate?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one big TD fan but I have number 9 as my jersey number whenever I play basketball? Why, because I'm giving homage to Tony Parker. I see him as a unique player that's why I always use his number

We all know what he has achieved and what he can do, but it's just sad that he can't tweak his game a little bit to suit the changing face of the team.

Like what I said, I'm not expecting him to become Nash or Paul. All want for him is to realize that he no longer needs to score 20ppg just to be effective. He just needs to involve other teammates because the team has a lot more firepower than ever before. Right now, TP 's career average in terms of assists is around 5.6, which is pretty average for a PG. Then again, I believe that that number will shoot up once he realizes the number of people who can actually benefit from his penetration.

That being said, I still agree that the Spurs is 100 times more potent if we can see him healthy once again. :toast

[OrEmuN]

Just a thought. Maybe because Hill dunks more while TP hardly dunks in the game.

TP NEVER dunks in the game. :lol

[wildbill2u]

I agree with this. Tony needs the ball in his hands all the time to be effective. As a PG, he's a mediocre passer and he doesn't let many players involved when he's on the court. I think he needs to adjust his game by becoming more pass-oriented than in previous years. With the depth and talent of the Spurs this year, him dribbling and penetrating is becoming more and more obsolete. Honestly, I predicted that the Spurs will win this game without Tony.

I think a lot of the problems with Tony at PG could be solved if Pop went back to calling the plays. Tony has never done that in his entire career and Tony's tendency is to call his own play every time down the court, dribbling until he can attack a filled-in lane, a la Steve Francis of Houston some years ago. Tony's not a PG by nature, not a Steve Nash or Jason Kidd, so you have to force him into a movement game by calling the plays from the sidelines.

We won four championships with POP calling plays from the sidelines and I still don't think a change to Tony in the driver's seat was necessary or some kind of battlefield promotion for good play.

Notice that when Hill is in, Pop calls the plays, and our ball movement picks up.

[Josepatches_]

The fact is players like Mason,Jefferson or Hill seem to be betters with Tony out.And the fact is we arent really worse with Tony out.We suck anyway with him at 200% last year.

We are a better team with Mason,Hill and Jefferson scoring 10-15 points.

It's not Tony's fault? I don't mind.But he's the PG so he has to fix that.

When TD and Manu was at his prime we didn't need a lot of points from Bowen.TP can play what he wants.But now it's different.Manu can't score 20 every night.

Hill isn't better than Parker.Never will be better than the best TP.But he's not far away than the actual TP and every year he's going to be close to Tony because Hill is younger.

It seems that some fans doesn't want to see how good is Hill.

[ElNono]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x48/muppet1010/persistent-fail.jpg

[pjjrfan]

Tony was a key role player in 2003 and 2005 years the Spurs won titles and Tony didn't need to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Tony is not the only problem on this team. I admit he hasn't been the same old Tony but the new guys just haven't brought in any energy, any chemistry or other than Bogans with his defense or Blair with his rebounding any game. I still lhave high hopes for McDyess, but RJ has the Wade Phillips look like he is always lost. OK Blair does create excitement, but good god the guy just can't finish a layup.
Defense is the team's biggest problem, the kind of team defense the Spurs have been known for, Hopefully that will kick in someday soon, otherwise we better lower our expectations of this team considerably. The Spurs are what their record says a middle of the road team, a good team but not a title contender.

[Bukefal]

Just a thought. Maybe because Hill dunks more while TP hardly dunks in the game. I still think that TP deserves more respect from the Spurs' fans. Well, people think differently and you can't tell other people to think the same way you do. Wait until the playoffs come, I think Spurs' fans will see more of how valuable TP is to the team. During this time, we should just wish TP, TD, Manu, and all the players healthy for the playoff run. Go Spurs Go!

:lol he doesn't dunk. He did it twice if I remember correctly. Once he made it and he was laughing, the other time he tried, couldnt reach it and failed. Anyway, it isnt about dunking, don't know why you brought that up.

[Bukefal]

The fact is players like Mason,Jefferson or Hill seem to be betters with Tony out.And the fact is we arent really worse with Tony out.We suck anyway with him at 200% last year.

We are a better team with Mason,Hill and Jefferson scoring 10-15 points.

It's not Tony's fault? I don't mind.But he's the PG so he has to fix that.

When TD and Manu was at his prime we didn't need a lot of points from Bowen.TP can play what he wants.But now it's different.Manu can't score 20 every night.

Hill isn't better than Parker.Never will be better than the best TP.But he's not far away than the actual TP and every year he's going to be close to Tony because Hill is younger.

It seems that some fans doesn't want to see how good is Hill.

This is not a fact. Are you serious?

This thread is going nowhere. Fail. It should be closed.

[Pauleta14]

This is not a fact. Are you serious?

This thread is going nowhere. Fail. It should be closed.


:lol

I feel like I lost my time "contributing" to this thread...

[Cry Havoc]

This thread, and anyone posting against one of the 5 best point guards in the league, should be locked and banned.

We have enough Spurs fans, thanks. We don't need idiots who don't know basketball.

Btw, noobs, Tony averaged 7 assists per game last year. GTFO.

[Kyle Orton]

one of the 5 best point guards in the league,


Dumbass. No he's not.

[Bukefal]

:lol

I feel like I lost my time "contributing" to this thread...

:lol indeed.

[duncanCOSTARICA]

trade tony??

[Cry Havoc]

Dumbass. No he's not.

You really need to stop stalking my posts, thanks.

[Brazil]

I don't know if spurs fans have an issue with their pg scorer but what I know is that the PG spot is the most exposed.

All the fans are complaining about their PG, how the PG is doing is one of the favorite discussions ever. Look at all the forums this is the same story: he must pass the ball more to x, he has to be more agressive, he is TOs prone, he is shooting too much etc etc... but guess what our pg has 3 rings and 1 mvp finals we all should be happy so far.

[portnoy1]

The thing about Tony is that he has been playing this way ever since he has been in the league. Only now Fans are starting to notice it cause of the solid players we have. I think the older Tim/Manu got along with the constant signing of veterans put Parker in a situation where, season after season he was expected to score more and more cause Tim/Manu couldnt do as much and the veterans were simply that, old role players. Now the chair has kinda been yanked from under him so to speak. He went from being the head of the snake (08-09 season) to now needing to be a facilitator in 09-10, Something he never has really been. He averaged 22pts and 7ast last season; thats solid IMO. However his assist come solely off penetration and right now thats a bad thing for the spurs offense. Pop needs to start calling the plays and TP needs to go back to the 04-05 Parker. In 04-05 the ball movement was pretty good between TP/Manu/Barry. The new TP stops ball movement, which a PG should never do.

[mazerrackham]

I want to clarify that when I started this thread I wasn't thinking of benching Parker or hating on him either. I'm a fan of Tony and any Spur for that matter, these were just my own thoughts on something that I thought may have added with the injury to contribute to Tony being less stellar than last season.

[Rogue]

TL is identically a Aaron Brooks kind of PG except inferior shooting skills. Both have decent assists number but that's mostly benefits of their attacking abilities, with which they always make open rooms for teammates by creasing up the opponent defense. If the ball moves sluggishly around the arc without such a slasher as TL, the shooters won't work so well as expected IMHO.

[spurtech09]

injuries...thats all what it is

[Parker2112]

Parker's struggles this season are almost entirely due to injuries. He has had some struggles adjusting to the altered personnel around him but not more than any other player on the team.

Disagree. Tony excels as the first option. He does not setup teamates well. When TP leads the break, if he takes the shot himself, count two. If he tries to run a 2-3 man break, count the botched opportunity/TO. That has always been the case, as they say "aint nothin' changed."


The theory that the lack of shooters is hurting Parker just doesn't jive with reality. He's finishing fine at the rim -- even better than last season. His dip in offensive production is due to a drop in his own perimeter shooting percentage.

Partly true...his shooting has dried up. TP will always have the ability to finish at the bucket. The problem comes in when the only thing TP can do for us is take the ball, drive to the cup and lay it in. It takes it's toll on Tony, and our team defense suffers IMO. When Tony takes over at the offensive end stops seem to happen alot less frequently. We seem to wind up going back and forth with teams and losing leads in the third and fourth quarters.


The Spurs have enough talent to win with only two healthy members of the Big 3. In fact, the Spurs are 3-0 this season without Duncan and 4-1 without Manu. With this latest win, the Spurs are now 3-2 without Parker ... so it's not like Parker sitting out is the secret to Spurs success.

The key here is looking at the consistency in Spurs play over four quarters while Tony is out. I think Hill gives them a defensive presence throughout the game that allows us to hold leads, and chip away at deficits when we have to. Less eratic play.


Saying Parker should come off the bench or that the Spurs are better with Hill as the point guard is just crazy talk.
Hill has shown he can run the point so Pop does in fact have the option.


For the Spurs to win a championship, they need TP playing at a high level. They have no shot at winning it all with a gimpy Parker or with him playing a reduced role.
Bottom line, twenty points a game can be made up, especially with Hill continuing to prosper in his role. It's not as though Parker brings alot of intangibles. He scores at will. No more, no less. The drawback is that with him on the court, other players are not consistently involved, and our D has also been up and down.


He's by far the best PG on the team (he's arguably the only PG on the team), he's the best playmaker on the team (Manu is very possibly the better passer but even then TP would easily be the second best passer on the team)
Again, he struggles to find his teamates in any situations other than spot up jump shot situations. When he is on the bench and Manu runs the show, the ball flows from side to side far easier, and players begin to find their groove in the offense. So, strictly as a PG, he not as great as advertised here.


and Parker getting easy buckets off penetration is the lifeblood of the team's offense.
Last year it was. This year, we are all hoping to see a better team offense, something that will hopefully produce better results than last year.


He has flaws but when healthy he's definitely an elite point guard in the NBA. Agreed, except if you need a setup man vs. a lightning fast scoring PG. Then he's not the guy you need. Not every elite player fits every situation. Bird could never have fit in a "Showtime" offense.


I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate.
If you have been following the Spurs as long as some of us, TP is a "New Age" Spur.


For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing.
Fault his lack of defense on a team predicated on D and a fanbase who appreciates stops.


I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position. I would take the little general in his prime over TP this year if the goal is to get all this talent working together and deep in the playoffs. If I want someone who makes highlight plays consistently, I'll take TP.

[Parker2112]

It's actually kind of funny..

I agree with Kace's point that a lot of Spurs fans seem to knock TP for being a shoot-first PG while showing love to guys like Rose..but you don't even have to use an example like Rose, we have an example on our own team..

I love Hill, he's also a SHOOT-first PG too..so the same people that criticize TP for his playing style are the same people that show love to Hill for the way he plays..it doesn't make any sense to prefer the PG with the same mentality BUT with INFERIOR skills as a PG..

When you expend as much energy on the defensive end as Hill, you've earned a few shots.

[Kyle Orton]

You really need to stop stalking my posts, thanks.
crofl that' the best your nerdy ass could come up with?

[timvp]

Disagree. Tony excels as the first option. He does not setup teamates well. When TP leads the break, if he takes the shot himself, count two. If he tries to run a 2-3 man break, count the botched opportunity/TO. That has always been the case, as they say "aint nothin' changed."

TP doesn't just excel at the first option. Throughout the years, he's been the first option at times but he smoothly transitions to being the second or third option. That's one his strongest assets. There aren't many All-Star level point guards who would willingly let others (mostly Manu and TD) take over the lead of the offense for quarters at a time. So yeah, he excels as the first option but also can shift gears and play off the ball without his ego getting in the way.

Saying he doesn't setup his teammates well is comical considering the other players on this team. Manu sets up teammates well (but his drop in athleticism this year has turned him into more of a passer than a playmaker). Who else on this team sets up teammates? Certainly not Hill. TP isn't exactly John Stockton but he's far and away in the top two when it comes to playmaking and passing.

As far as fast breaks are concerned, that hasn't been a problem over the years. Yeah, Parker runs ugly fast breaks that make purists cringe but he makes the layup at a very high rate. A Parker one-man fast break is as efficient as any other type of fast break this team runs. Not as pretty but still effective.


Partly true...his shooting has dried up. TP will always have the ability to finish at the bucket. The problem comes in when the only thing TP can do for us is take the ball, drive to the cup and lay it in. It takes it's toll on Tony, and our team defense suffers IMO. When Tony takes over at the offensive end stops seem to happen alot less frequently. We seem to wind up going back and forth with teams and losing leads in the third and fourth quarters.

That is some weird logic. The defense is bad because TP doesn't run the offense correctly? Doesn't make much sense. The defense has been great in years Parker was much less of a player.

The day the defense depends on what is happening on the offensive end is the day the Spurs are no longer capable of playing championship caliber defense.


The key here is looking at the consistency in Spurs play over four quarters while Tony is out. I think Hill gives them a defensive presence throughout the game that allows us to hold leads, and chip away at deficits when we have to. Less eratic play.

What games are you using to judge the "consistency" when TP is out? The previous three games before the Memphis game that TP missed resulted in the Spurs averaging 89 points per game. And again, if you want to use the small sample sizes, the Spurs are 3-0 without Duncan and 4-1 without Ginobili. Using your logic, the Spurs should get rid of those two players.

I like Hill but he's nowhere near the level of Parker. The Spurs wouldn't have won any of their championships with Hill as their starting PG and would have no chance this year if Hill is their long-term starting PG. Contrived "consistency" or not.


Hill has shown he can run the point so Pop does in fact have the option.

:lol Hill hasn't shown that. In fact, he may have proven the opposite this year. There was hope he could evolve into a point guard in his second season but he's shown to be a smallish shooting guard with good ballhandling ability. He doesn't make plays like a point guard. He doesn't pass like a point guard. In a vast majority of halfcourt sets Hill is involved in, he relinquishes the role of point guard. If Manu (or even RMJ) is on the court with Hill at the same time, Manu is the point guard in non-transition situations. Last game, Duncan ran the show from the high post most of the time when Hill was in the game.

Perhaps Hill may grow into being a point guard but right now him "playing point guard" results in Hill either driving all the way for a layup in transition or handing the ball off to someone else to make a play.


Bottom line, twenty points a game can be made up, especially with Hill continuing to prosper in his role.
Yes, 20 point per game point guards who shoot at a high percentage, don't have any problem deferring, are equipped with championship experience and have a history of stepping up their defense in the playoffs grow on trees. Good point.


Again, he struggles to find his teamates in any situations other than spot up jump shot situations. When he is on the bench and Manu runs the show, the ball flows from side to side far easier, and players begin to find their groove in the offense. So, strictly as a PG, he not as great as advertised here.

Again, Manu is a freak of nature. He's arguably the best passing shooting guard on the planet. Comparing Parker (or anyone else in the league outside of a handful of players) to Manu in that category isn't fair. Manu is a damn good passer who is passing way better than any point in his career.

That said, Parker is the second best on the team in that category. It's not like Hill or anyone else comes into the game and is in Manu's league. When it comes to penetration and kick, Parker is the best on the team. When it comes to running the pick-and-roll with Duncan, Parker is elite. When it comes to straight up court vision, TP is second to Manu -- with third being far away.


Last year it was. This year, we are all hoping to see a better team offense, something that will hopefully produce better results than last year.Last year? Parker being able to get to the rim and score has been the lifeblood of the offense since 2003. It has been the easiest form of Spurs offense over the years and it's the first thing opponents have to plan against.

If the Spurs will be championship contenders this year, Parker's scoring ability will play a big part in that.


Agreed, except if you need a setup man vs. a lightning fast scoring PG.

I don't understand the Spurs fans who believe the Spurs need to change their whole philosophy because they brought in Richard Jefferson. He's Richard Jefferson, not Kobe Bryant or LeBron James. RJ was brought in to add to the mix and play a supporting role to the Big 3 -- not change the team from Big 3 centric to some sort of Showtime knockoff.

The Spurs will still live and die by the Big 3.


If you have been following the Spurs as long as some of us, TP is a "New Age" Spur.

Okay?


Fault his lack of defense on a team predicated on D and a fanbase who appreciates stops.

:lol

Parker's defense hasn't been a problem over the years. In the 2005 and 2007 championship runs, he played good (sometimes great) defense. Outside of Bowen, he was oftentimes the second player Pop turned to for good man-to-man defense.

It's true that Parker has had a tendency to slack off defensively in the regular season over the years but come important games, TP almost always steps it up on D.

As for Hill, his defense is the most overrated aspect of his game. He can be a good defender and sometimes is a good defender ... but he can also be exploited at times. Even this year with Parker hobbled, the Spurs still give up fewer points when Parker is in the game compared to when Hill is in the game.


I would take the little general in his prime over TP this year if the goal is to get all this talent working together and deep in the playoffs. If I want someone who makes highlight plays consistently, I'll take TP.

:lmao AJ > Parker? That is hilarious ... even though I might be the biggest AJ homer on the forum. Parker this year is better than AJ ever was in his prime. A healthy Parker blow AJ out of the water.

And since when does TP make highlight plays? He might be the most boring star point guard of all-time. That's part of the reason why New Age Spurs fans underrate him ... his game consists of shooting open jumpers, making the boring pass and driving to the lane for layups. Hardly highlight inducing.

[Brazil]

nice troll attempt Parker2112

[baseline bum]

I'll never understand why Parker is such a difficult player for New Age Spurs Fans to appreciate. For his whole career, these type of threads have popped up -- no matter how well he's playing. I guess TP will only be appreciated once he's gone and Spurs fans really see what it's like to have an issue at the point guard position.

Goddamnit this is a great post. Tony Parker's one of the greatest things to ever happen to this team.

[SpurNation]

Tony Parker IS an All-Star player. His contributions can't be appreciated enough.

That said.

This team would do better IMO if he were to ever be traded for another athletic big to play alongside Duncan.

The guards the team has now would more than be fine. It's not like the team would fall apart without Tony...However...the Spurs without Tony Parker while adding another young athletic big would be better.

Again...this is not a knock on Tony...It's, IMO, what would make the Spurs better as a team and have a better shot at winning the title.

[baseline bum]

Tony Parker IS an All-Star player. His contributions can't be appreciated enough.

That said.

This team would do better IMO if he were to ever be traded for another athletic big to play alongside Duncan.

The guards the team has now would more than be fine. It's not like the team would fall apart without Tony...However...the Spurs without Tony Parker while adding another young athletic big would be better.

Again...this is not a knock on Tony...It's, IMO, what would make the Spurs better as a team and have a better shot at winning the title.

What big would you trade him for?

[Kori Ellis]

It's weird to me that everyone is praising the Spurs awesome D yesterday with Tony out... Memphis shot 51% and Pop hated it. People are acting like the Spurs D all of a sudden was awesome last night... it still sucked.

Tony has struggled hard this year with injuries, but he looked like he was starting to turn the corner before the ankle problem. Hopefully he recovers quickly because the Spurs don't really see Hill's future as a starting point guard. They see him as a small shooting guard (which is what he is). If Parker were out for significant time, the Spurs would probably trade someone for a PG.

[E-RockWill]

Goddamnit this is a great post. Tony Parker's one of the greatest things to ever happen to this team.

:tu

[SpurNation]

What big would you trade him for?

It would have to be someone elite like Tony.

A trade for Parker and Bosh works not that Toronto would ever do this much less the Spurs.

Again...I love Tony Parker...What he's done for the Spurs...Matter of fact...I was one of the few who at the beginning thought Parker would become an elite top 5 PG when most others thought he was a wasted draft pick.

But I see this Spurs team in need of a different identity than it had just 3 years ago.

What's ironic is Tony...for all his greatness...was instrumental in significantly helping the Spurs win a championship only once since he's been here and elevated his game to that level. That was in '07.

Since...even though he's been tops at his position...the Spurs haven't been able to win it again without a dependable big not named Duncan.

After Avery and before Parker I would say the team did not have a "good" PG but had excellent post players. Now the team has a great PG, good to really good 2's/Wings but no one to step in for or play alongside an aging Duncan. When/If Duncan is out...this team would not win.

If it were to have another elite big...This team IMO can win it all without Parker because of the talent it possesses in the guard department. It could not win it all if Duncan were to go down.

[ThaiFanofSpurs]

:lol he doesn't dunk. He did it twice if I remember correctly. Once he made it and he was laughing, the other time he tried, couldnt reach it and failed. Anyway, it isnt about dunking, don't know why you brought that up.

I know it's funny. But maybe some fans really do care about the players dunking. I actually don't care about it. But knowing Spurs' fans, sometimes you know how funny they are.

[ThaiFanofSpurs]

I don't understand why some fans are comparing TP with Hill. We should be happy the Spurs have both of them in their team. TP is a proven PG who has won three championships with the team. I know some people will claim it because of TD. But if we look at it in the other way, can we say that TD has won the last three championships because TP has been part of the team to help him? And also the help from Manu. I love all big three. I love Hill too. Anyone named Spurs is always supported by me.

I have nothing against Hill but does everyone think Hill will still show this kind of performance once other teams start playing tougher defense on him? Once he becomes one of the stars in the team.

[Pauleta14]

I have nothing against Hill but does everyone think Hill will still show this kind of performance once other teams start playing tougher defense on him? Once he becomes one of the stars in the team.[/quote]


:toast

[weebo]

I don't think this thread was started to bash Tony, and we will only go as far as a healthy TP will take us ( like Manu and TD). I haven't heard anyone say that we would be better without him in the line up. I think what some of us are saying is that he could do more given his health if he played a different role on the team this year.

Parker's greatest contribution to the team is his scoring. Now because of injury, fatigue, RJ, or whatever, Tony hasn't been Tony of 08-09. He is not particularly adept at finding teammates ala Kidd, CP, or DeronW. He never has. He is an average defender at best and that's why Pop always had Bowen on guys like Nash, Billups, and CP3. Now Hill and Bogans have that job. He is not a great rebounder for a pg, and he doesn't have the basketball IQ ( a term people around here like to kickaround a lot) of a great set up man either.

So, therefore, you surround Parker with shooters to help him space the floor and watch him run a lay up drill against 2nd string guards. He would be a great 6th man for the Spurs this year. And, yes, I'll agree that TP is and can be an all-star level player but only when he is healthy enough to do what he does best...get to the paint and score at will. This year he's been able to do that on some nights but has lacked the consistency that has made him great in the past.

One last thing, I don't understand why people get so offended if Parker came in off the bench. It's not like he would be getting the Bowen treatment. A lot of Spurs starters have been benched if Pop felt like they could contribute better in some way ( Manu, Finely, Bowen,...hell even Duncan). Besides isn't it more important who ends the game than who starts it?

[doobs]

I love Tony. He's amazing.

But he's going to be garbage when he loses some of his speed. I hope that doesn't happen for a long time.

[romain.star]

I love Tony. He's amazing.

But he's going to be garbage when he loses some of his speed. I hope that doesn't happen for a long time.

that's, IMO, the most relevant point of this thread

Does TP have what it takes to turn into a good 3 pts shooter when he is in his 30s?

[ShoogarBear]

I love Tony. He's amazing.

But he's going to be garbage when he loses some of his speed. I hope that doesn't happen for a long time.

Now this is a sentiment that has some merit. TP should take a look at what's happening now and realize he's not always going to be the fastest player n the league, and so if he wants to be effective in the league past the age of 30, he need to develop more skills that aren't based on the assumption that he can use brute speed to beat his defender off the dribble.

In a few years it's not going to be plantar fasciitis but older legs slowing him down, and he and Pop need to start on contingency plans.

[Parker2112]

TP doesn't just excel at the first option. Throughout the years, he's been the first option at times but he smoothly transitions to being the second or third option. That's one his strongest assets. There aren't many All-Star level point guards who would willingly let others (mostly Manu and TD) take over the lead of the offense for quarters at a time. So yeah, he excels as the first option but also can shift gears and play off the ball without his ego getting in the way.
Parker's ego hasn't ever really been a problem. I think Pop set the foundation that effectively prevented that from ever being the case.
As for TP letting others run the offense, I think Parker is well situated to do that because his offensive skill set is so potent. Maybe setup was a poor choice of words on my part, how about "get the offense flowing" instead. I don't think anyone can argue that it flows much better without TP. Last year, the offense did not flow at all, it became a one-trick pony.


Saying he doesn't setup his teammates well is comical considering the other players on this team. Manu sets up teammates well (but his drop in athleticism this year has turned him into more of a passer than a playmaker). Who else on this team sets up teammates?
How much better do Dice, Blair and Jefferson play with TP on the bench? Ball movement, guys moving without the ball, easy buckets, they all pick up with TP out because guys know Manu will reward them.


As far as fast breaks are concerned, that hasn't been a problem over the years.
Because Parker was the only one involved:toast


Yeah, Parker runs ugly fast breaks that make purists cringe but he makes the layup at a very high rate. A Parker one-man fast break is as efficient as any other type of fast break this team runs. Not as pretty but still effective.
Hard to disagree, because TP is a points machine on the break/in the lane. But with the talent we need to integrate, TP's one-man game can be seen as a liability...his shortcomings become obvious in light of Manu's playmaking and even George Hill's ability to run the team effectively while maintaining a flowing diversified attack.




That is some weird logic. The defense is bad because TP doesn't run the offense correctly?
When TP has the pedal to the metal on the offensive end, he is gassed late in the game. And I'm not saying he isn't running the offense correctly...he run's what Pop wants I'm sure. But it takes a big toll on his legs. Stops are harder and harder in the 3rd and 4th. How many times does TP come up with a key steal/deflection/defense late in the game? Compared to Hill? And that is not just this year...


The day the defense depends on what is happening on the offensive end is the day the Spurs are no longer capable of playing championship caliber defense.
With better movement and a diverse attack on the offensive end, relying less on TP to be a one-man game, making use of other guys' talent, that would reduce TP's load and assumably he would be better rested to dig in late on defense. Nothing weird about that logic.




What games are you using to judge the "consistency" when TP is out?
Actually, it's my hypothesis only, not really any need to argue before we get a larger sample size. That is why I said..."The key here is looking at the consistency in Spurs play over four quarters while Tony is out..." and TP hasn't been out long at all. By looking I mean over the next several games. And I admit I could be wrong. But I might not be.


And again, if you want to use the small sample sizes, the Spurs are 3-0 without Duncan and 4-1 without Ginobili. Using your logic, the Spurs should get rid of those two players.
I never said we would be better off without Parker. I do think he is a hugely efficient scorer. Like AI but better. I just happen to think our glaring need is someone to facilitate our offense, get guys involved, keep us from becoming a 2 pronged attack.
Make use of the role players. Just what the Spurs have been known for over the years.


I like Hill but he's nowhere near the level of Parker. The Spurs wouldn't have won any of their championships with Hill as their starting PG.
The analysis is not that simple. Parker played a role on those teams...with much different personell. We didn't need him to play anything other than team D on one end, and on the other he played pick and roll and drive to the hole.
Now we have guys in Dice and RJ and Blair that can get easy buckets but need the setup. And now if Parker tries to run the offense as we used to, we are neglecting our potential. And now if Parker takes plays off, TD is not automatically going to cover it up with a block, nor Horry with the help and the hard foul, nor is Bowen going to be there for the tough assignments.




:lol Hill hasn't shown that. In fact, he may have proven the opposite this year. There was hope he could evolve into a point guard in his second season but he's shown to be a smallish shooting guard with good ballhandling ability. He doesn't make plays like a point guard. He doesn't pass like a point guard. In a vast majority of halfcourt sets Hill is involved in, he relinquishes the role of point guard.
Which is why our team tends to flow on offense when he is in:toast


If Manu (or even RMJ) is on the court with Hill at the same time, Manu is the point guard in non-transition situations. Last game, Duncan ran the show from the high post most of the time when Hill was in the game.
Gotta love being versatile to what the other team gives you:toast Rather than running it down their throats hell or high water.


Perhaps Hill may grow into being a point guard but right now him "playing point guard" results in Hill either driving all the way for a layup in transition or handing the ball off to someone else to make a play.
We have tens of millions in payroll just waiting to blow up in the stats column. Hill sounds like just what we need!



Yes, 20 point per game point guards who shoot at a high percentage, don't have any problem deferring, are equipped with championship experience and have a history of stepping up their defense in the playoffs grow on trees. Good point.
No need to get rid of him:toast





That said, Parker is the second best on the team in that category.
Except that Parker can't run the break, can't set up players at the rim, and has never been able to feed Duncan over the top of the defense.


It's not like Hill or anyone else comes into the game and is in Manu's league. When it comes to penetration and kick, Parker is the best on the team.
Maybe that explains our over-reliance on the three point shot and the inconsistency in our offense, and the inability for guys like RJ, Dice and Blair to find their game with Parker on the floor.


When it comes to running the pick-and-roll with Duncan, Parker is elite.
True.


When it comes to straight up court vision, TP is second to Manu -- with third being far away.
What does court vision help if you are feeding guys late and we are constantly having to reset on fast breaks if Parker doesn't take the shot.





I don't understand the Spurs fans who believe the Spurs need to change their whole philosophy because they brought in Richard Jefferson. He's Richard Jefferson, not Kobe Bryant or LeBron James. RJ was brought in to add to the mix and play a supporting role to the Big 3 -- not change the team from Big 3 centric to some sort of Showtime knockoff.
It's more than RJ. Blair scores around the rim and moves without the ball...Dice can play much better. Say what you like that is the role of the PG.


The Spurs will still live and die by the Big 3.
Not if we can do better.




Parker's defense hasn't been a problem over the years. In the 2005 and 2007 championship runs, he played good (sometimes great) defense. Outside of Bowen, he was oftentimes the second player Pop turned to for good man-to-man defense.
In my best Archie Bunker..."Those were the dayssss..." :lol


It's true that Parker has had a tendency to slack off defensively in the regular season over the years but come important games, TP almost always steps it up on D.
Again TP with the stop/steal/deflection in crunchtime doesn't ring many bells.

As for Hill, his defense is the most overrated aspect of his game. He can be a good defender and sometimes is a good defender ... but he can also be exploited at times. [/quote]
He will continue to grow. But his consistent pressure is the reason Pop and I love him.

[Brazil]

I didn't want to start a thread for that but just to put things into perspective regarding the number of assists that is for me a quite overated stat. Assists are linked to the ability of the PG of course but also it is a ratio very linked to a team and the way you run the Offense.

Look at Collison stat when he is starting, last two games he dished 32 assists !! I've seen him he is no CP3 he is good but not that good. So if he can put this kind of number I suppose TP assists will increase too in this kind of team.

Don't get me wrong, CP3 is a great player and the best PG in the league but the difference between him and a guy like TP is thinner than most people believe. CP3 is also a product of a system, put him in the spurs system and his stats will be lower than today.

To sum up TP is fitting very well in the spurs system, talks about trading him are mostly stupid.

[z0sa]

When was Parker going to start shooting 3's again? I thought those days began in the 2007 finals and he just hasn't shot them still.

[Brazil]

When was Parker going to start shooting 3's again? I thought those days began in the 2007 finals and he just hasn't shot them still.

I think he is keeping that for the Pos like a secret weapon CIA tp

[ElNono]

The day the defense depends on what is happening on the offensive end is the day the Spurs are no longer capable of playing championship caliber defense

That's what's been happening for one and a half seasons...

[Bukefal]

I didn't want to start a thread for that but just to put things into perspective regarding the number of assists that is for me a quite overated stat. Assists are linked to the ability of the PG of course but also it is a ratio very linked to a team and the way you run the Offense.

Look at Collison stat when he is starting, last two games he dished 32 assists !! I've seen him he is no CP3 he is good but not that good. So if he can put this kind of number I suppose TP assists will increase too in this kind of team.

Don't get me wrong, CP3 is a great player and the best PG in the league but the difference between him and a guy like TP is thinner than most people believe. CP3 is also a product of a system, put him in the spurs system and his stats will be lower than today.

To sum up TP is fitting very well in the spurs system, talks about trading him are mostly stupid.

Man, I think CP3 is overrated. Everyone keeps saying oh he is so good, he is the best and so much better than TP or any other PG, they say just look at his stats and his numbers he is putting up, they are way higher. Well I don't think he is.

Everything involves around him on his team, everything goes to, from and thru CP3. Everything is created for him, he is the main point of his team. Of course his stats are so high. If you would put CP3 in the Spurs or another team with a different style and with more quality players on their own, his numbers would decrease significantly and he would be very disappointing, from what people see from him now. In this situation stats do not mean that much as many think.

What you are saying is true, ive said it also before couple times recently, many on here made me ridiculous because I made these statements. If you would put TP on such a team, well TP's numbers and stats would increase drastically, TP would also put such numbers up every night.

But that's the thing, TP can't do that with the Spurs, he does not have such a role on the team, not everyone involves around him. And I think TP even will do and does a better job than if CP3 would've joined a team like the Spurs, because TP can create more on his own, he is better in penetrating to the basket and he is not so dependent on the rest, and what other players all create and set it out for him.

Im not saying CP3 sucks, because he doesnt, he is a great player of course, but overrated and the big reason for his amazing stats are because of his role on his team. That doesnt mean he is so much better than TP or other PG's.

[Chomag]

Currently the only PG I would love running the spurs other then TP is Dwilliams, that is a pipe dream however.

[Pauleta14]

that's, IMO, the most relevant point of this thread

Does TP have what it takes to turn into a good 3 pts shooter when he is in his 30s?



I think that if Tony can take 1 or 2 summers working on his J, the same way he did a couple years ago with Chip, there are no reason he can't be a good 3 pts shooter!
Each time he had time to work on a specific aspect of his game, he has shown great improvement in that area...

IMO the only option he has if he wants to keep improving, is stoping the French NT...

And you know what, I don't think it would be a bad thing for the french NT either!!!
We have a lot of young talent that would whave to step up, and a talented young PG in Diot...

[Bukefal]

I think that if Tony can take 1 or 2 summers working on his J, the same way he did a couple years ago with Chip, there are no reason he can't be a good 3 pts shooter!
Each time he had time to work on a specific aspect of his game, he has shown great improvement in that area...

IMO the only option he has if he wants to keep improving, is stoping the French NT...

And you know what, I don't think it would be a bad thing for the french NT either!!!
We have a lot of young talent that would whave to step up, and a talented young PG in Diot...

Yeah, he worked pretty hard on that back then and he did it good, too bad we dont see it anymore.

[Pauleta14]

Again TP with the stop/steal/deflection in crunchtime doesn't ring many bells.



You should watch again the last play of game 5 in 2005, after Horry nailed the dagger...
Tony was guarding Rip hamilton who could have won the game and change the (his)story...

[Bruno]

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

[ElNono]

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

LOL
Fact? Really? How do you rationalize that? By All-Star appearances?
What's the criteria? Honest question...

[Bruno]

LOL
Fact? Really? How do you rationalize that? By All-Star appearances?
What's the criteria? Honest question...

So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

[ElNono]

So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

I'd like to see Parker's entire career before I place it anywhere in a Spurs's best scale...

Right now, I would argue Sean Elliott to be number 4, and Manu and Parker fairly equal on number 5...

I think what happens with Tony and Manu careers down the road will influence that too...

Bottom line is, there's no FACT. It's all opinion...

[Bruno]

Right now, I would argue Sean Elliott to be number 4, and Manu and Parker fairly equal on number 5...



I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

[ElNono]

LOL, you call people TOO BLINDED???

You claim things as facts, but you can't present any facts to backup your claims...

I love Tony Parker. I think he's the best PG the Spurs ever had.

[Bukefal]

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

So true.

As for being the 4th best ever Spur, yeah he is.

But this is very likely to turn into a Parker vs. Manu thread again :lol

[Bruno]

LOL, you call people TOO BLINDED???

You claim things as facts, but you can't present any facts to backup your claims...

I love Tony Parker. I think he's the best PG the Spurs ever had.

Do you really need facts to prove that Parker is ahead of Ginobili as a Spur?
It's pretty obvious.

Let's go, fact 1:

Points as a Spur:
1. George Gervin* 23602
2. David Robinson* 20790
3. Tim Duncan 20095
4. Tony Parker 10894
5. James Silas 10290
6. Mike Mitchell 9799
7. Sean Elliott 9659
8. Larry Kenon 8248
9. Manu Ginobili 7573
10. Avery Johnson 6486

[timvp]

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol




P.S.

I don't even need to respond to Parker2112. The Nuggets did that job for me, unfortunately.

[ElNono]

Do you really need facts to prove that Parker is ahead of Ginobili as a Spur?
It's pretty obvious.

Let's go, fact 1:

Points as a Spur:
1. George Gervin* 23602
2. David Robinson* 20790
3. Tim Duncan 20095
4. Tony Parker 10894
5. James Silas 10290
6. Mike Mitchell 9799
7. Sean Elliott 9659
8. Larry Kenon 8248
9. Manu Ginobili 7573
10. Avery Johnson 6486

I asked you what criteria you used. You could have said TP has more All Star appearances. Or TP scored more points, like you just did.
Instead, you call me a hater, because you don't want to discuss this at all.

You simply are the exact same thing you accused me of being: You're a Tony Parker cheerleader, which is absolutely no different than being in Church of Manu fan.

I personally think that when you rank people like that you need to take into account a bunch of different things, including who were fan favorites, and who identified with the franchise the longest too. That's why Sean Elliott has his jersey retired, but not Mike Mitchell. In that vein, I think if Parker sticks with the Spurs, he will probably be number 4 when all is said and done. If he bolts to the Lakers, plays 6 years there and wins 3 rings then I'm not so sure. Same thing if Manu goes away this summer.

This is it. No hating, just exchanging opinions. I know you can do it.

[ElNono]

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol

:lol I know... I'm trying to go easy on it...

[DAF86]

So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

Manu > Tony 75% of Spurs know that, the thing is Ginobili has played a lot less time for this franchise than Parker so yes it's fair to say that Parker will have a better career as a Spur than Manu.

[Bruno]

I asked you what criteria you used. You could have said TP has more All Star appearances. Or TP scored more points, like you just did.
Instead, you call me a hater, because you don't want to discuss this at all.

You simply are the exact same thing you accused me of being: You're a Tony Parker cheerleader, which is absolutely no different than being in a Church of Manu fan.

Well, I'm not a Tony cheerleader.
Now, I don't see how interesting to enter in a discussion that shouldn't exist.

Do you have any legit points that show that Manu should be ranked ahead of Parker?



I personally think that when you rank people like that you need to take into account a bunch of different things, including who were fan favorites, and who identified with the franchise the longest too.

Well, "fan favorite" is quite a BS way to rank players.

[Brazil]

Personally I don't give a shit to know if Manu is better than TP or not. This debate is useless time will tell. Now what it is pissing me off is the recurrent: TP is not a real PG, he is selfish, he is shooting too much, TP for Jose Calderon b/s, in D he is as bad as bonner and with 6 / 7 assists he is not a real PG when freaking Collison is putting 32 assists in two games for NO. Man Collison is da man, the new Steve Nash, if he keeps on putting such numbers you can bet we will see a trade parker for Collison thread.

[ElNono]

Do you have any legit points that show that Manu should be ranked ahead of Parker?

Well, "fan favorite" is quite a BS way to rank players.

Most jerseys sold? Same amount of NBA titles riding TD's coattails?
I don't think there's a non-BS, non-opinionated way to rank players. Which brings me back to your 'fact' claim. Both Manu and Tony will have their jerseys retired by the Spurs when their careers are over, I'm 100% sure of that. And they both would have equally contributed to the success in the Duncan era.
Tony has the possibility to go past that and have an era of his own. We'll see how that pans out. Until then, I don't think you can really put their careers into perspective as far as Spurs greats are concerned. And honestly, I couldn't care less who ranks higher than the other.

I'll tell you that those who DO care, are more concerned with the cheerleading than with the franchise.

[portnoy1]

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

[timvp]

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way.

:lol @ Sadly

:lmao

:smchode:

[ElNono]

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

Bruno, this is Exhibit A. Now you can use your 'hater' line...
I wouldn't waste my time arguing with a guy like this either... :lol

[urunobili]

You should watch again the last play of game 5 in 2005, after Horry nailed the dagger...
Tony was guarding Rip hamilton who could have won the game and change the (his)story...

Great one... I actually started a thread about that clutch play once!

TP went apeshit after Hamilton after the play (Hamilton cheaply / clearly elbowed him) and kinda wanted everybody to guess what he told him after the game was over.... he definitively barked something at Rip....

[Pauleta14]

Most jerseys sold?

really? :downspin:

I think he also has more friends on Facebook... :lol

[DAF86]

Regarding the OP post I think he has a point in the lack of shooters on the starting line-up, Pop's most used SL is Tony-Bogans/Hill-RJ-Blair-Tim, out of those guys nobody is a reliable jumpshooter. timvp discredited this point by saying that Tony is finishing as good as ever the only problem is that he isn't getting to the rim as often as he usually does and IMO this fact doesn't discredit the OP point in fact it enforces it, the lack of shooters leaves less room for Tony to get to the paint (although you also have to consider Parker's injury).

P/S: One question for the greater minds of ST, why is the thought of having Tony coming off the bench this year (you know with the injuries and the tiredness) so laughable but the thought of Manu coming off the bench through almost his entire NBA career is so clever?

[Bruno]

P/S: One question for the greater minds of ST, why is the thought of having Tony coming off the bench this year (you know with the injuries and the tiredness) so laughable but the thought of Manu coming off the bench through almost his entire NBA career is so clever?

If Manu was able to play 34mpg, he would be a starter.

[Brazil]

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

portnoy1 never fail to deliver

How do you rank / analyse the Collison 32 assists ? more parker's ones or manu ? more CP3 in the style ?

Is Collison the future Steve Nash ?

[ElNono]

really? :downspin:

I think he also has more friends on Facebook... :lol

:rollin

Well, to my credit, the Spurs DO get a cut of merchandise sold, unlike the Facebook friends. :lol

[ElNono]

If Manu was able to play 34mpg, he would be a starter.

Manu played 34mpg in the NT for years...

[urunobili]

Manu guarded Fish in 04 and stupidly fouled Dirk (and the TO vs Kevin Martin in the Sacramento series that shouldn't have gone to 6 games that same season) at the end of the games in two of the most heart breaking Spurs losses all time... [/thread]

TP> Manu as a Spur is simple math...

as a basketball player? CROFL

[Brazil]

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol


I knew bumping that thread was not a good idea :hat

[lefty]

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.
You mean the 13th best Spur ever behind Duncan, Gervin, Robinson, Ginobili, Sean E., Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Dale Ellis, Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson, Sleepy FLoyd and Lloyd Daniels.

[ElNono]

I knew bumping that thread was not a good idea :hat

It's not a bad idea. There's no game until tomorrow night. :lol

[ElNono]

you mean the 13th best spur ever behind duncan, gervin, robinson, ginobili, sean e., dennis rodman, moses malone, dale ellis, rod strickland, avery johnson, sleepy floyd and lloyd daniels.

tp >>>>>>> aj

[Bukefal]

Manu > Tony 75% of Spurs know that, the thing is Ginobili has played a lot less time for this franchise than Parker so yes it's fair to say that Parker will have a better career as a Spur than Manu.

Really? :lol

[Brazil]

You mean the 14th best Spur ever behind Duncan, Gervin, Robinson, Ginobili, Sean E., Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Dale Ellis, Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson, Sleepy FLoyd, Lloyd Daniels and G Hill.

fify

[Brazil]

It's not a bad idea. There's no game until tomorrow night. :lol

thanks to be nice

[Bruno]

Manu played 34mpg in the NT for years...

And they played 100 games per year...

Even if Manu is able to play 34mpg, Pop doesn't want to play him that much. The limited MPG Manu played is the main reason why he doesn't start.

[DAF86]

If Manu was able to play 34mpg, he would be a starter.

Tony doesn't seem to be doing much better playing those kind of minutes this year. Besides you can play less than that and still start. And last but not least, Manu's lack of stamina has been largely overrated by ST over the years. Manu can easily play 35 min per game, maybe not at the frenetic rythm he usually does but he can still play those minutes and be very effective.

[DAF86]

Really? :lol

Yes.

[lefty]

fify
:lol

[ElNono]

Even if Manu is able to play 34mpg, Pop doesn't want to play him that much. The limited MPG Manu played is the main reason why he doesn't start.

This I agree with. At least that's what worked for the Spurs.

[Pauleta14]

I knew bumping that thread was not a good idea :hat

Actualy I kinda like it.... :lol

[Bruno]

I personally think that Spurs players should be ranked by their cuteness. Beno with his man purse is the best Spur ever. And it's a fact.

[lefty]

I personally think that Spurs players should be ranked by their cuteness. Beno with his man purse is the best Spur ever. And it's a fact.
It's not a purse !

It's European !!!!

[ElNono]

I personally think that Spurs players should be ranked by their cuteness. Beno with his man purse is the best Spur ever. And it's a fact.

Angel_Luv would like to have a word with you... :lol

[Bruno]

Angel_Luv would like to have a word with you... :lol

Well, I don't think that looking like Frankenstein's creature is cute.

[Pauleta14]

You mean the 13th best Spur ever behind Duncan, Gervin, Robinson, Ginobili, Sean E., Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Dale Ellis, Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson, Sleepy FLoyd and Lloyd Daniels.


:lmao

[ElNono]

Well, I don't think that looking like Frankenstein's creature is cute.

LOL, he has changed...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/471699206_c994092289.jpg

[FromWayDowntown]

You mean the 13th best Spur ever behind Duncan, Gervin, Robinson, Ginobili, Sean E., Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Dale Ellis, Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson, Sleepy FLoyd and Lloyd Daniels.

How is Speedy Claxton not on that list??

[DAF86]

Manu guarded Fish in 04 and stupidly fouled Dirk (and the TO vs Kevin Martin in the Sacramento series that shouldn't have gone to 6 games that same season) at the end of the games in two of the most heart breaking Spurs losses all time... [/thread]

TP> Manu as a Spur is simple math...

as a basketball player? CROFL

Are you really going to blame that on Manu? :lol

You also seem to forget that without Manu in '05 the Spurs wouldn't have won it all (neither without Tim obviously but everybody else was "replaceable" to different digrees) and without 2005 there's no 2006 or 2007.

[Pauleta14]

Are you really going to blame that on Manu? :lol

You also seem to forget that without Manu in '05 the Spurs wouldn't have won it all (neither without Tim obviously but everybody else was "replaceable" to different digrees) and without 2005 there's no 2006 or 2007.


:lol

Is it really how you see things??
Don't you have any memory or what?

So Parker, Horry and Bowen were "replaceable"? :wow

Come on..

[Bruno]

Tony doesn't seem to be doing much better playing those kind of minutes this year. Besides you can play less than that and still start. And last but not least, Manu's lack of stamina has been largely overrated by ST over the years. Manu can easily play 35 min per game, maybe not at the frenetic rythm he usually does but he can still play those minutes and be very effective.

Well, it's not ST that has decided that Manu lacks stamina to play 35mpg, it's Pop.

I'm just saying that the reason why Manu comes from the bench is that he doesn't play 35mpg. If Manu played that much minutes, he would start.

Now, there would have nothing wrong with Pop deciding that Tony need to play less than 30mpg this year. In that scenario, bringing him from the bench would be an option. Saying that, Pop hasn't decided to cut that much Parker's minutes.

[lefty]

How is Speedy Claxton not on that list??
Goddammit !!!!!

[Brazil]

Yes.

A poll ! a poll ! a poll !

Spurs are bad but at least ST is having fun with an old fashioned Manu vs. TP discussion :toast

[DAF86]

A poll ! a poll ! a poll !

Spurs are bad but at least ST is having fun with an old fashioned Manu vs. TP discussion :toast

The good old times.

P/S: I think I should clarify: I'm not talking about right now, just in general. Right now Tony > Manu.

[lefty]

A poll ! a poll ! a poll !

Spurs are bad but at least ST is having fun with an old fashioned Manu vs. TP discussion :toast
I'm tired of TP vs Manu discussion


Let's talk about Bonner vs Finley

[Brazil]

The good old times.

P/S: I think I should clarify: I'm not talking about right now, just in general. Right now Tony > Manu.

I'm sure 75% of ST fans agree with you

[DAF86]

:lol

Is it really how you see things??
Don't you have any memory or what?

So Parker, Horry and Bowen were "replaceable"? :wow

Come on..

That year players importance IMO:

1) Tim
2) Manu (pretty close second)
3) Bowen
4) Horry
5) Parker

And by replaceable I mean that there were several players on the league that year that you could have put instead of them and the Spurs would have still won the championship, while there weren't many you could have put instead of Tim and Manu. Instead of Duncan... well nobody and instead of Manu you have Kobe and not much more.

[ElNono]

How is Speedy Claxton not on that list??

Because George Hill already surpassed him... :lol

[Bukefal]

Yes.

:lol You can't be serious. I know you are from Argentina and you love the guy, but you got to be a bit realistic here. :toast


Anyway, yeah this parker vs. manu thing is really getting tired. It's pointless. I just think the hate on TP and blindness as bruno said, is indeed pretty crazy.

[Brazil]

Because George Hill already surpassed him... :lol

I already fixed that on Lefty list

[DAF86]

:lol You can't be serious. I know you are from Argentina and you love the guy, but you got to be a bit realistic here. :toast


Anyway, yeah this parker vs. manu thing is really getting tired. It's pointless. I just think the hate on TP and blindness as bruno said, is indeed pretty crazy.

How long have you been on this board?

[Brazil]

How long have you been on this board?

my dick is bigger than yours

[Bukefal]

How long have you been on this board?

Has that anything to do with Parker > Manu or vice versa? :lol

[DAF86]

my dick is bigger than yours

No, it wasn't meant that way, I hate that kind of talk. What I was trying to know is if he has been long enough on this site to know how much ass kissing Manu gets on this board.

[DAF86]

Has that anything to do with Parker > Manu or vice versa? :lol

If you have been long enough you would know that Manu would probably beat Tony on every poll that is started on this board no matter if it's true or not.

[Pauleta14]

That year players importance IMO:

1) Tim
2) Manu (pretty close second)
3) Bowen
4) Horry
5) Parker

And by replaceable I mean that there were several players on the league that year that you could have put instead of them and the Spurs would have still won the championship, while there weren't many you could have put instead of Tim and Manu. Instead of Duncan... well nobody and instead of Manu you have Kobe and not much more.


:nope

The fact that Manu and Timmy were our MVPs thst year is a no brainer!
But you are underrating the job the rest of the team did by saying that...
The importance of chemistry, knowing the systems, puting egos asside for the benefit of the team, etc...

We have a perfect example this year, with RJ and Dyess, that even if you add great players, they need time to know how to be useful to the team...

What Tony, Bruce and big shot Rob did bring was priceless and we wouldn't have won that year without them...

[Brazil]

No, it wasn't meant that way, I hate that kind of talk. What I was trying to know is if he has been long enough on this site to know how much ass kissing Manu gets on this board.

my bad, I thought it was a: "listen kid I'm gonna explain you the life"

[Bukefal]

If you have been long enough you would know that Manu would probably beat Tony on every poll that is started on this board no matter if it's true or not.

I know and that's just the sad thing. In ass kissing as you said, in love for Manu and hate for TP yes, then Manu would beat him on polls.

Manu is loved and TP is mostly hated. But as a player, and not as a popularity contest or love for a player, it is; TP > Manu. I am not talking about fan love, Im talking about the players. I didnt know you were saying Manu > TP referring to popularity. That's why I said; You got to be realistic.

[ElNono]

Can you imagine this thread 5 years from now?

portnoy1: Tony doesn't deserve this 8th All Star game appearance. Remeber when he couldn't pass the ball to Jefferson? We shouldn't have let Hill walk last summer.

Bruno: I stopped talking to Tony haters 5 years ago...

DAF86: I know Manu is 39, but it's Pop that's playing him 20 mpg, not me.

timvp: This thread has everything to turn into fireworks...

:lol

[Bukefal]

No, it wasn't meant that way, I hate that kind of talk. What I was trying to know is if he has been long enough on this site to know how much ass kissing Manu gets on this board.

Believe me, Ive seen it enough :lol :toast

[Pauleta14]

If you have been long enough you would know that Manu would probably beat Tony on every poll that is started on this board no matter if it's true or not.

:lol

Even the new ones on ST can't ignore that!!!

[DAF86]

I know and that's just the sad thing. In ass kissing as you said, in love for Manu and hate for TP yes, then Manu would beat him on polls.

Manu is loved and TP is mostly hated. But as a player, and not as a popularity contest or love for a player, it is; TP > Manu. I am not talking about fan love, Im talking about the players. I didnt know you were saying Manu > TP referring to popularity. That's why I said; You got to be realistic.

Don't get me wrong I was talking about popularity but I also think that Manu > Tony (not right now obviously). I honestly bealive that Manu at his peak is better than Tony at his and I'm sure most spurs/basketball fans will agree with that thought.

[Bukefal]

Don't get me wrong I was talking about popularity but I also think that Manu > Tony (not right now obviously). I honestly bealive that Manu at his peak is better than Tony at his and I'm sure most spurs/basketball fans will agree with that thought.

Oh I see im sorry :toast. Yeah, if you look at popularity by Spurs fans, Manu is more loved yes. TP is just a bit hated.

As for these two players by looking at their qualities and as players, It's Parker>Manu . I think that's just reality, whatever your personal love is.

[Parker2112]

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol




P.S.

I don't even need to respond to Parker2112. The Nuggets did that job for me, unfortunately.

And what was all that baloney about sample size then?:lol Hill seems to do poorly with most good pg's on a first assignment, but one thing is for sure he will continue to work, all game, all season. He's shown that to everybody. That is why he has my support.

Look man, there are Parker haters, of which I am not one, and there are Parker homers, of which you are one. For all the great contributions to this board, your lack of objectivity on TP is disappointing.

And your bias comes thru even more with every critical assessment of Ginobili. I have been the first to call Ginobili "tragic johnson" in the past, and I think to call him a tremendous passer is to look at the past season only. He's always tried hard, but he has missed the mark at too high of a clip in the past.

However, he is a motor for our offense when he's out there, and you can't dismiss that so easily with his fg%.

Not only that, but your bias for Parker gets old as well. I am simply trying to present the opposite argument. What would this site be if we couldn't have honest debate? I know you and others here have dealt with TP haters for years, and have developed special sensativities, but maybe we should all recognize the need to "raise the bar," even when the views of others don't necessarily reflect your own.:toast

[Parker2112]

For the record, I think Manu is making a hell of a PG, and TP will always be a great option at SG, but a liability on D. Manu has been adequate, but not great on D. I would consider a trade for either if the return was worth the cost, and I happen to think Duncan can no longer hold down the rim without help, warranting a look at all options.

I would like to at all costs avoid a rebuilding process, even if that meant trading manu or TP. Call me "objective." Meaning not a homer. Team first.

If either of these two would have shown some loyalty when it came to playing during the summer my views might be different.

And I am excited to see how this season pans out, be it by trade or by progress with our core.

[in2deep]

Let's look at the respective players best years:

2005 Manu: won a championship

2009 Parker: lost in the first round


:stirpot:

[Parker2112]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

[Brazil]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

oh god

by the way why your user name is parker2112 ? you must be a portnoy1 troll.

[Kori Ellis]

oh god

by the way why your user name is parker2112 ? you must be a portnoy1 troll.

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.

[Kori Ellis]

Timvp, your words carry heavy weight around this board. Rightfully so. You dig deep into the stats, you investigate heavily, you expend a lot of energy for the benefit of us all.

But when you try and pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault" as FACT, your fandom leads you astray. Totally understandable, we are all fans here. But off the mark nonetheless.

And when that opinion doesn't comport with the opinion of those of us who know that (without Bowen/Horry/healthy Timmy) TP relegates us to mediocre defense and up and down results in the W's column (much less in the playoffs), expect dissent.

timvp is a much bigger Manu fan than he is a Parker fan, so I don't think he has ever tried to pass off TP as "greatest thing ever/indispensible/without fault".

[scottspurs]

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili should both retire spurs in my opinion. Why all the hate for TP around here? He was finals MVP for us just a few years ago. Let him rest his foot/ankle and start playing well again before you shove him out the door. Everyone needs to have a little patience and chill out. Parker isn't going anywhere so you tony haters need to learn to love him or at least like him or find a new team to root for.

[Brazil]

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.


Now I'm curious...

[timvp]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.

I come to Parker's defense on ST quite a bit because he has undoubtedly been the most unfairly maligned player in Spurs history. When posters are talking stupid -- like saying TP has been a detriment to the team over the years or that he's no longer the best PG on the team (which has been said countless times over the years) -- then I have to counterbalance those takes. Those type of takes unimpeded just trash up the forum since the anti-Parker contingent is so loud and proud.

But I've also been equally hard on TP. I've ripped him countless times for playing with his NT. I've questioned his All-Star selections. I've called him out for disappearing in fourth quarters and lazy regular season play. I've argued against Parker necessarily being a top five point guard in the NBA. I've advocated trades that included Parker. When asked in the past, I've said Manu is a better player than Parker. I was against Parker being named the Finals MVP. But the Parker hater is a stubborn creature who doesn't read any of that. All they see is someone who doesn't go along with the anti Parker groupthink.

It's just so damn weird that there is a segment of Spurs fans whose existence revolves around hating Parker. I really don't understand it. Parker has his faults but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

[Brazil]

PG spot is always the most comented one, fans love to complain about their PG.

[FromWayDowntown]

but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

It's more than turning a blind eye to it. It's become an affirmative effort in revisionist history to diminish Parker's role and his his importance to what's happened in San Antonio since 2002. It's absolutely baffling.

[Parker2112]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.

I come to Parker's defense on ST quite a bit because he has undoubtedly been the most unfairly maligned player in Spurs history. When posters are talking stupid -- like saying TP has been a detriment to the team over the years or that he's no longer the best PG on the team (which has been said countless times over the years) -- then I have to counterbalance those takes. Those type of takes unimpeded just trash up the forum since the anti-Parker contingent is so loud and proud.

But I've also been equally hard on TP. I've ripped him countless times for playing with his NT. I've questioned his All-Star selections. I've called him out for disappearing in fourth quarters and lazy regular season play. I've argued against Parker necessarily being a top five point guard in the NBA. I've advocated trades that included Parker. When asked in the past, I've said Manu is a better player than Parker. I was against Parker being named the Finals MVP. But the Parker hater is a stubborn creature who doesn't read any of that. All they see is someone who doesn't go along with the anti Parker groupthink.

It's just so damn weird that there is a segment of Spurs fans whose existence revolves around hating Parker. I really don't understand it. Parker has his faults but to turn a blind eye to how important he has been to the team and how important he currently is to the team is just lunacy.

I'll take that at face value and say I was wrong about you Timvp.

Just try and distinguish between the Parker haters and the constructive criticizers who want stops from this team no matter who is on the court. Or no matter who we have to put on the court.

[Chieflion]

PG spot is always the most comented one, fans love to complain about their PG.
It is because it is either the second most important or most important position to fill for a team. Reason why people don't complain about their centers in this era is because all of them practically suck.

[kace]

Parker haters think timvp likes Parker too much while not giving enough credit to Manu. Manu haters think timvp likes Manu too much while not giving enough credit to Parker. I take that as a compliment. It means timvp hasn't become a homer either way.


i don't agree Timvp.

I think that you're one of the most unbiased poster here because you don't hesitate to be harsch with player that you like/(over)praised (hill...) or praise players you don't really like when they do well (finley....)

but 95 % of TP fans like manu. TP's fans don't start overreacting threads about TP being the best whatever of the league like manu's ones everytime after a good game. TP's fans don't start manu bashing or trading threads. and TP's fans (95 % of them) never criticized Timvp for being a manu homer.

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.


as for the manu/TP ranking as players, well very delicate question here :lol:

- as overall players/accomplishments : manu > tony
- as NBA players (intrinsic best level reached consistently): tony > manu (and it should be even clearer as the years go on)
- as what they meant to the spurs till now: manu = tony (here again, tony should be ahead of manu at the end of their respective career if they stay with the spurs)

just my opinion.

[Bukefal]

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team.but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.


Exactly :tu They are both great players and as a fan I see how both have meant a lot for us and still do.

I do think as players it is; TP > Manu. I see that as reality, not as a thing to bash on Manu. I dont have any hate for Manu, he is loved and very popular among Spurs fans. He is obviously more loved than Parker ( at least, on ST), I just dont get all the Parker bashing and hate, I think that's ridiculous and very undeserved.

http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w16/img.199857_t.jpg

[gilmor]

i don't agree Timvp.

I think that you're one of the most unbiased poster here because you don't hesitate to be harsch with player that you like/(over)praised (hill...) or praise players you don't really like when they do well (finley....)

but 95 % of TP fans like manu. TP's fans don't start overreacting threads about TP being the best whatever of the league like manu's ones everytime after a good game. TP's fans don't start manu bashing or trading threads. and TP's fans (95 % of them) never criticized Timvp for being a manu homer.

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.


as for the manu/TP ranking as players, well very delicate question here :lol:

- as overall players/accomplishments : manu > tony
- as NBA players (intrinsic best level reached consistently): tony > manu (and it should be even clearer as the years go on)
- as what they meant to the spurs till now: manu = tony (here again, tony should be ahead of manu at the end of their respective career if they stay with the spurs)

just my opinion.

Ducks has to be the minority 5 % who doesn't like Manu.

I'd like both players but I, like TIMVP, feel that TP is unfairly treated in this forum.

[it's me]

I don’t know what it is but Tony is like…. “easy to dislike” … as for now as a player…. Tony > Manu, and that’s obvious, but if I have to pick a player I enjoy (enjoyed… dude is done by now and should be traded) watching play basketball, I pick Manu over 90% of the league without a doubt. Unfortunately everything comes to an end…. I foresee sort of the same discussion when Tony reaches the 35-36 years of age…. People always forget.

PS: I blame “ST freelance clown” Ducks for contributing the Tony hate cause around here……. I’m sure this poor idiot masturbates from behind with a Tony’s bubble-head.

[hater]

who gives a shit?

they both been sucking equally this season.

the Manu fans are living in the past. Manu can be useful but never will be the old manu that could take over games. and the Parker fans think Parker is been doing this shit for years, he's been great for 1 and 1/2 season, after riding on Duncan's tails and choking in the playoffs for years.

and now they both suck. and I don't see either one recovering to their old self.

oh and the delusional Parker fan's that say Parker is younger so has more upside. Parker has tons of miles on his body. His condition is similar to Manu's at this point. :rolleyes

[ElNono]

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

and "manu's groupies" doesn't mean that every manu's fan, even argentine, is a blind groupie.

:rolleyes

You're not "incredibly vocal and omnipresent" whenever somebody says anything about TP?

How many more times do we have to hear what's TP assist/turnover ratio from 82games.com? :lol

[z0sa]

manufan and tonyfan will be gone in 5 years anyway.



Then we can enjoy the Spurs sucking.


Just kidding?
Hopefully.

[portnoy1]

No not a portnoy troll, but a troll of someone else who was banned.
I was never banned. Cant think of a reason I should be either!!!

[portnoy1]

Can you imagine this thread 5 years from now?

portnoy1: Tony doesn't deserve this 8th All Star game appearance. Remeber when he couldn't pass the ball to Jefferson? We shouldn't have let Hill walk last summer.
:lol
IMO Tony deserves every allstar appearance he has ever gotten. And he'll no doubt ( If healthy) be in more all star games in the future. From the time I got here I never said Parker was a bad player. He is just not the PG that the SPURS need right now. Can he be? I think so, I seen flashes of what he can do from the PG standpoint. However when is he gonna adjust his game to suit the players around him? Another PG might be able to come in and do that before Tim retires. I would like to see the big 3 retire in a spurs jersey but if someone had to go it would be Parker, not because he is a bad player, because I dont know he can alter his game quick enough to salvage the season and Tims Career.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Exactly :tu They are both great players and as a fan I see how both have meant a lot for us and still do.

I do think as players it is; TP > Manu. I see that as reality, not as a thing to bash on Manu. I dont have any hate for Manu, he is loved and very popular among Spurs fans. He is obviously more loved than Parker ( at least, on ST), I just dont get all the Parker bashing and hate, I think that's ridiculous and very undeserved.



I don't see how and why anyone could make a valid point either way. Manu and Parker have both been very successful and have both helped the Spurs equally and are both equally as good as players, albeit with different peaks and lows obviously. Manu = Parker for the Spurs.

Saying that Tony > Manu is as much homerism as the argie fans' that you're bashing for saying Manu > Parker.

[Parker2112]

imo tony deserves every allstar appearance he has ever gotten. And he'll no doubt ( if healthy) be in more all star games in the future. From the time i got here i never said parker was a bad player. He is just not the pg that the spurs need right now. Can he be? I think so, i seen flashes of what he can do from the pg standpoint. However when is he gonna adjust his game to suit the players around him? Another pg might be able to come in and do that before tim retires. I would like to see the big 3 retire in a spurs jersey but if someone had to go it would be parker, not because he is a bad player, because i dont know he can alter his game quick enough to salvage the season and tims career.

+1.

[ElNono]

I'm bracing myself already for the "Beno >>> TP" threads that are sure to show up if we manage to lose to the Kings tonight (even though Tony is not going to play)...

Another reason this is a must win game... :lol

[portnoy1]

portnoy1 never fail to deliver

How do you rank / analyse the Collison 32 assists ? more parker's ones or manu ? more CP3 in the style ?

Is Collison the future Steve Nash ?Didnt see the 2 collison games, but I assume that any post about Parkers weaknesses makes me a Parker-hater. In my post I talked about Manu's weaknesses and strengths as well as TP's weaknesses and strengths in the passing department. But Im sure you didnt read the whole post, so thats cool.

[ElNono]

manufan and tonyfan will be gone in 5 years anyway.

Then we can enjoy the Spurs sucking.

Just kidding?
Hopefully.

LOL... but then we'll argue between Hill and Blair!

[hater]

manufan and tonyfan will be gone in 5 years anyway.



Then we can enjoy the Spurs sucking.


Just kidding?
Hopefully.

wrong. they will turn into Nando De Colo fans vs. Juan Fernandez fans

manufan and tonyfan will be here forever :lmao

[portnoy1]

wrong. they will turn into Nando De Colo fans vs. Juan Fernandez fans

manufan and tonyfan will be here forever :lmaoAfter recent debacles in Mahinmi/Splitter???/Beno the spurs probably wont be getting to many players from overseas and stashing them like before. TP and Manu were incredible finds that were worth the risk. TP at 28th pick / Manu at 57th. I doubt that kinda magic in the draft will happen to spurs again. So dont expect see Nando any time soon.

[z0sa]

:lol

I think most of the group of arg/fr fans who originally bandwagoned have actually become big fans after all these years. Shit, how could you not be? You got to watch one of the L's best teams for 7+ years now.. gotta be worth something.

[TMTTRIO]

Tony and Manu both have played important parts in how the Spurs have been successful and as for now Tony is the better player. It doesn't matter anyways and all of these Manu vs Tony threads might disappear next year with Manu possibly going elsewhere. I bet then we'll have Tony vs George Hill threads instead :lol. Another interesting thing I was listening to the other day would you hate Manu if he decided to not come back here and decided to sign with the Lakers instead? Interesting

[Bukefal]

I don't see how and why anyone could make a valid point either way. Manu and Parker have both been very successful and have both helped the Spurs equally and are both equally as good as players, albeit with different peaks and lows obviously. Manu = Parker for the Spurs.

Saying that Tony > Manu is as much homerism as the argie fans' that you're bashing for saying Manu > Parker.


Exactly :tu They are both great players and as a fan I see how both have meant a lot for us and still do.

I do think as players it is; TP > Manu. I see that as reality, not as a thing to bash on Manu. I dont have any hate for Manu, he is loved and very popular among Spurs fans. He is obviously more loved than Parker ( at least, on ST), I just dont get all the Parker bashing and hate, I think that's ridiculous and very undeserved.

As I already said; It has nothing to do with bashing. I dont want to bash Manu. It's just reality for me: TP>Manu. You can say what you want, but it's true.

So, you say they are equal, ok, thats one thing, that's your opinion obviously and that's fine. But then you are saying now we can't say which players are better than others anymore? Because that is bashing and homerism? Does it mean that im bashing manu, just because I say TP is a better player?
No, that has nothing to do with bashing or hating Manu. Because I don't and that's the thing we were talking about, the undeserved hate and blindness against Parker, and the love for Manu.

And yeah as Ive also said, it doesnt matter, both players mean and meant for us and as a fan I see that. But you can't say they are equal and then telling me im bashing because I dont think they are equal. If I would have said; Manu is a asshole he stinks, ok, then Im bashing but not when im just saying TP is a better player, because thats just reality

[Brazil]

Didnt see the 2 collison games, but I assume that any post about Parkers weaknesses makes me a Parker-hater. In my post I talked about Manu's weaknesses and strengths as well as TP's weaknesses and strengths in the passing department. But Im sure you didnt read the whole post, so thats cool.

Even if you didn't see the 2 collison games, I gues you have already seen him, right ? So my question is still valid, how this guy put 32 assists in two games, is he the new S Nash ? Should we trade parker for him ? he has more assists than Calderon !

In your post where did you talk about Manu's weaknesses ? Is it the bold part ? :lmao his weakness is a bad shooting game compensated by an incredible 9 assists ?


Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

By the way just lol at the comparaison between one assist and another, so now in basketball you have a good assist and a bad assist ? What is the difference ? I'm lost: at the end the good assist gives you 2,5 pts and the bad one only 2 pts ?

[kace]

:rolleyes

You're not "incredibly vocal and omnipresent" whenever somebody says anything about TP?

How many more times do we have to hear what's TP assist/turnover ratio from 82games.com? :lol

:lol good one.

but i think i've never started any TP praising thread and i'm sure i've never started any manu bashing thread.

manu's church devotion and vehemence are incomparable.

[portnoy1]

Even if you didn't see the 2 collison games, I gues you have already seen him, right ? So my question is still valid, how this guy put 32 assists in two games, is he the new S Nash ? Should we trade parker for him ? he has more assists than Calderon !

In your post where did you talk about Manu's weaknesses ? Is it the bold part ? :lmao his weakness is a bad shooting game compensated by an incredible 9 assists ?



By the way just lol at the comparaison between one assist and another, so now in basketball you have a good assist and a bad assist ? What is the difference ? I'm lost: at the end the good assist gives you 2,5 pts and the bad one only 2 pts ?
My bad, I was refering to another Post I had regarding Parker and Manu's passing styles in which I critisized and complimented both. It is not in this thread, I thought it was. Anywho, my point regarding the assist is how it accomodates the players around you. Parker's assist accomdates shooters only (for the most part). Thats why last season Parker had a career high 7ast average because he had 3 shooters (Mason/Finley/Bonner) around him. However throw him out there with RJ/Hill/Blair, his passing style doesnt accomodate them nearly as much because they are not shooters. Manu can come in with those guys and hit RJ/Hill in transition and feeds blair in his sweet spots (2 feet from the basket when he slips PnR with Manu). Parker isnt as good at that and that to me is important if this stacked team is gel properly. Magic Johnson turned Kurt Rambis into a scoring threat simply because he found him in transition. Alot of the spurs run, but with Parker he is use to going 1 on 3. In recent years he has always been succesfull doing that. He is hurt this year, but IMO hasnt made good enough effort to pass to guys in the spots where they will be effective. The Collison thing, I havent seen the guy and I Dont just base my thoughts on numbers alone.

[Kori Ellis]

I was never banned. Cant think of a reason I should be either!!!

I didn't mean you were banned. I meant his (parker2112) original user name was banned.

[portnoy1]

I didn't mean you were banned. I meant his (parker2112) original user name was banned.Thats good to know, Even though most here want me banned I like this site alot. Even Brazil!!!!

[trypldubl]

The difference between parker and manu passing wise is the way manu sets up other players. Especially when he gets screens from Blair and Dyess. A reason he gets to make some of those plays is because (even though he has not been hitting it lately) he has a reputation for hitting his shot consistenly. That's one of differences between a PG like parker and guys like Nash, Deron, and Paul. Those guys can hit a shot off the screen and roll.

Parker is a penetrate and pass type of guard. He is looking for his shot first then looks for the open man, unless a play is specifically called for another player first. Part of this is the system and part is because one of parker's strength is getting into the lane for a layup.

[portnoy1]

The difference between parker and manu passing wise is the way manu sets up other players. Especially when he gets screens from Blair and Dyess. A reason he gets to make some of those plays is because (even though he has not been hitting it lately) he has a reputation for hitting his shot consistenly. That's one of differences between a PG like parker and guys like Nash, Deron, and Paul. Those guys can hit a shot off the screen and roll.

Parker is a penetrate and pass type of guard. He is looking for his shot first then looks for the open man, unless a play is specifically called for another player first. Part of this is the system and part is because one of parker's strength is getting into the lane for a layup.
+10000
That has been my point since I been here in Spurstalk. But no that cant be, cause im a Parker-hater for life according to some here. Never was a Parker-hater never will be, its just that so many people defend him when he obviously has weaknesses. They have shown up big time this year, but the Parker-homers cant comprehend that.

[DAF86]

:lol

I think most of the group of arg/fr fans who originally bandwagoned have actually become big fans after all these years. Shit, how could you not be? You got to watch one of the L's best teams for 7+ years now.. gotta be worth something.

That's true, but I think it has more to do with the existance of this board than the time spent cheeering for the Spurs.

[trypldubl]

Yea, I know, I have seen your posting before and I know people here get defensive about certian players.

[DAF86]

for me, it's quite simple. Most fans like both players and know what they mean/meant to this team. but the manu's groupies (especially the argentine ones) are just incredibly vocal and omnipresent when it comes about manu's greatness or TP bashing.. that's just it.

I can't think of an Argie in ST that is a blind TP hater: Manumaniac, ElNono, MB20, Cherry, Diego, etc. none of them are big time Parker bashers, in fact I've seen them arguing against the stupid critiscism Tony gets in here many times.

Of course I don't know from where each of the posters is, there's always the chance that portony is Argentine too :lol

[portnoy1]

I can't think of an Argie in ST that is a blind TP hater: Manumaniac, ElNono, MB20, Cherry, Diego, etc. none of them are big time Parker bashers, in fact I've seen them arguing against the stupid critiscism Tony gets in here many times.

Of course I don't know from where each of the posters is, there's always the chance that portony is Argentine too :lol
Who is portony? as in poor tony parker cause he takes the heat alot? Actually I was born in new york for your information and have never been any where near Argentina. However I have been to canada which is somewhat related to france. So technically I should be bowing before Tony Parker. When its all said and done Tony Parker is a solid player that has weaknesses like every player does.

[Brazil]

Thats good to know, Even though most here want me banned I like this site alot. Even Brazil!!!!

Me too I like you...................... a lot. its quite gay no ?


For the rest if you are not capable to recognize you are biaised about TP there's nothing I can do. Dude you would trade him for Calderon without thinking twice. Even DAF thinks you're an argie extremist member of the manu church.

and just lol at the assists story it's stupid pain and simple, an assist is an assist. Wtf this style doesn't work if you haven't shooters ? you know a team without shooters ? BTW how the guy has more or less the same number of assists than last year ?
Once again the assists stat is a lot of b/s, look closely the CP3 games at home and count the assists then you make the comparaison with "official" numbers, very often you wonder how the guys have found 15 assists.

Look I'm even not a TP homer, when he sucks I say he sucks, I'm also defending Manu when I think the bashing is wrong. same here.

[portnoy1]

Me too I like you...................... a lot. its quite gay no ?


For the rest if you are not capable to recognize you are biaised about TP there's nothing I can do. Dude you would trade him for Calderon without thinking twice. Even DAF thinks you're an argie extremist member of the manu church.

and just lol at the assists story it's stupid pain and simple, an assist is an assist. Wtf this style doesn't work if you haven't shooters ? you know a team without shooters ? BTW how the guy has more or less the same number of assists than last year ?
Once again the assists stat is a lot of b/s, look closely the CP3 games at home and count the assists then you make the comparaison with "official" numbers, very often you wonder how the guys have found 15 assists.

Look I'm even not a TP homer, when he sucks I say he sucks, I'm also defending Manu when I think the bashing is wrong. same here.
I think Calderon is a better team player and keeps the ball moving side to side and has PG instincts. However I tell you that between RJ and Parker which most of this is about anyway, I would trade RJ 9 times out if 10 instead of Parker. I certainly dont hate RJ but I would like to see all of the big 3 retire in a spurs jersey. I also would like the spurs to go back to a dominant defense (2001-2008) and a systematic offense thats still somewhat unpredictable (2005). Parker surrounded by 2 shooters and 2 legit big men would make me much happier than the spurs with another PG and no defense still.

[trypldubl]

The reason why Parker worked for us in those years was because he was not given the green light to be the primary scorer on the wing. Second Duncan was drawing double teams that would cause players to leave their man. He was basically our point guard in a manner of speaking. He would probe the defense, pick it apart and find the shooters. If not then pass it to Parker and manu on the wing to penetrate or so they could score or find the open guy spoting up. Now Duncan gets played strait up more often because teams do not fear him as much anymore. We have shooters on this team it's just we don't get wide open looks as much.

Parker has trouble creating shot for his teamates other than drive and kick. What portnoy1 is saying that half of Paul's assists are off of the way he creates. He may see a play developing and know when to pass the ball and get that assist. Parker get more assist from the system. Parker can sometimes make those plays but most of the time he just can't see them.

[Brazil]

[quote=trypldubl;4050618] half of Paul's assists don't exist. [quote]

fify

[trypldubl]

OK....let me brake it down for you. Basic set plays Paul could get an assist just buy passing a ball to David West in a pop and shoot play or by passing to a guy coming of a screen. He can get about 5 assists during the game like that (the half that don't exist). He gets others when the play brakes down and he finds the mismatch or sucks the defense in to find an open shooter. Paul also is great in the transition game and can make that pinpoint pass around the rim or to the trailer on the wing. Basically creating shots that a player with his vision could create.

I am not bashing Parker, he just dosen't have the same court vision as Paul or a few of the other points in the league. Tony is better at getting into the lane then Paul and when healthy is still one of the fastest in the league. Each player has there own strengths.