Kobe Wants 'Old-School' Defensive Rules To Return

[XFactor]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64362/20100130/kobe_wants_old_school_defensive_rules_to_return/

Kobe Wants 'Old-School' Defensive Rules To Return

Lakers guard Kobe Bryant would like to see the NBA return to their "old-school" defensive rules.

"I'm old-school," Bryant said Friday night.

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," he said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."

The NBA started to allow zone defense at the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Hand checking was first outlawed in 1994 and shortly thereafter, in 1997, defenders were prohibited from using forearms to guard against players facing the basket.

[21_Blessings]

Hand checking isn't that big of a deal. Good players use that contact as leverage to get by their man even easier.

Advanced defenses like zone blows anything you saw out of the water during the 90s and 80s. Back then flagrant fouling someone going up for a layup was considered "good defense.".

[himat]

Dude Pistons hand checked all the time in the 2004 season and we always got away with it.

[Double-Up]

Of course he does, he wants to prove he can be as good as Jordan which we all know he isn't and never will be.

[MiamiHeat]

defensive 3-second rule must be removed too

and also flagrant fouls, so defenses can punish people who go to the rim again.

[Pero]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64362/20100130/kobe_wants_old_school_defensive_rules_to_return/

Kobe Wants 'Old-School' Defensive Rules To Return

Lakers guard Kobe Bryant would like to see the NBA return to their "old-school" defensive rules.

"I'm old-school," Bryant said Friday night.

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," he said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."


Do you guys agree that basketball is better without zone? (I don't.)

[lefty]

Kobe wants old school D?

The same guy who does a lot of vocal flopping?

Please, if he played in the 80's or 90's ,he would be whining like a bitch

[Allanon]

Yup, the old-schoolers had it alot easier with the mano a mano defense.

Top players today would be averaging 35-40 points without these bullshit advanced zone defenses.

[MiamiHeat]

Yup, the old-schoolers had it alot easier with the mano a mano defense.

Top players today would be averaging 35-40 points without these bullshit advanced zone defenses.

all that lakerjuice must have rotted your brain

you got it backwards there, brah

[Allanon]

all that lakerjuice must have rotted your brain

you got it backwards there, brah

Obviously you were born stupid, son.

How is it backward?

[Double-Up]

Obviously you were born stupid, son.

How is it backward?

Zone defenses have always been more effective against post players than perimeter players.

[23LeBronJames23]

What a cry baby. He needs to stop complaining and play the game.

[samikeyp]

Most of today's players couldn't handle old school d.....would love to see it though.

[Allanon]

Zone defenses have always been more effective against post players than perimeter players.

WTF are you talking about? Where did you get this? Where is your proof of this.

Zone defenses like the Box and 1 are specifically made to stop 1 player.

[21_Blessings]

Most of today's players couldn't handle old school d.....would love to see it though.

Players like Wade couldn't handle it. He'd be a joke in the 90s. Guys like Kobe however would flourish.

[boston.balla]

yo, ball would be so much better if we keep the zone d and let hand checks and real flagrants.. not the pussy 50 fts a game type of play we see nowadays.. you wanna go to the hole then you gotta go HARD.

I'd love to see some cruel 80's flagrant stuff. Make a C play like a man not like pau gasoft in the name of god, we're not collecting daisies from near the magical pond, we're playing a man's game.

[lefty]

Obviously you were born stupid, son.

How is it backward?
I don't think today's best perimeter scorers would score less or more points in zone vs no zone

Their PPG would be more or less the same.

The only difference is HOW they would get their points: in zone, they are more often wide open on 3's; in no zone situation, more penetrations, FT's...

[JoeTait75]

Kobe just wants to use his hands on defense and get away with it.

[samikeyp]

Players like Wade couldn't handle it. He'd be a joke in the 90s. Guys like Kobe however would flourish.

Actually, I do agree with that. Most couldn't but Kobe could thrive in any era...I think LeBron and Timmy could too...maybe it would cure their whining. I love TD but he, as does LBJ and 24, tends to whine too much for me.

[himat]

Hand checking was first outlawed in 1994 and shortly thereafter, in 1997, defenders were prohibited from using forearms to guard against players facing the basket.

There's no way it was outlawed that early. The 2004 Pistons, especially Lindsey Hunter and Mike James, hand checked all the time. I could of sworn they changed the rules after 04.

[Allanon]

I don't think today's best perimeter scorers would score less or more points in zone vs no zone

Their PPG would be more or less the same.

The only difference is HOW they would get their points: in zone, they are more often wide open on 3's; in no zone situation, more penetrations, FT's...

At least you understand that a zone *EDIT* does NOT *EDIT* allow for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans. I give you props for that :lol

A guy like LeBron, with no zone defenses would probably average like 40 points.

You have 2-3 players in a zone against LeBron right now and he's averaging close to 30 points. What 1 defender can stop LeBron from dunking 15-20 times a game for 40?

In the 2008 Finals, the Celtics employed 3-4 man zone defenses to stop Kobe and ignored the rest of the team to get theirs.

[Double-Up]

At least you understand that a zone allows for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans. I give you props for that :lol

A guy like LeBron, with no zone defenses would probably average like 40 points.

What 1 defender can stop LeBron from dunking 15-20 times a game?

Advantages of playing a zone defense
There are several reasons for a team to use a zone defense. Some are listed below.

The opposing team has a player or players too quick (in the case of guards) or too big (in the case of forwards or centers) for a man-to-man defense to be effective.
Many zones pack defenders in the lane but allow the offensive team to take long-range shots. If the opponents are poor long-range shooters, a zone can be very effective.
Unless trapping is involved, zone defenses typically do not involve aggressive pressure on the ball handler and allow the offensive team to pass the ball around the perimeter, leading to more time being used by the offensive team before a shot is attempted. Therefore, teams wanting to slow down the tempo of a game will often choose to play zone.
A poor defensive player can often be "hidden" in a zone because teammates can more easily help if he or she is beaten.
If players are in danger of fouling out (especially forwards or centers, who typically guard the lane), using a zone helps to take the pressure off them.
Playing a zone is usually less tiring than playing man-to-man, so fatigued teams are more inclined to use zones.
Some teams play a zone when the opponents inbound the ball under the basket to help prevent easy scores off of screen plays.
Against teams with inexperienced guards, trapping zones can disrupt the offense and force turnovers.

[mavs>spurs2]

Laker fan is delusional. Kobe would look pretty average going up against the old school hard nosed defense Jordan had to face. The nba is constantly changing the rules to make it a SG's game in order to find the next Jordan.

[Double-Up]

Straight from Wikipedia ^^ :lol

[Double-Up]

Laker fan is delusional. Kobe would look pretty average going up against the old school hard nosed defense Jordan had to face. The nba is constantly changing the rules to make it a SG's game in order to find the next Jordan.

:tu:tu:tu

[gaKNOW!blee]

Lebron mention.

[Pero]

At least you understand that a zone allows for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans. I give you props for that :lol


What? Are you drunk? That's not what he said.

[Warlord23]

Here's a fun fact. Across the entire spectrum of basketball fans, the only fan base that thinks perimeter players of today face tougher defenses than the 80s/90s lot are Laker fans. It's their one and only way of trying to put Kobe in the same breath as MJ/Magic/Bird. The rest of the NBA fanbase, commentators and players themselves know the truth, which is:

1. NBA teams use zone about 10% of the time. The zone defense is only used as a change-up, not as a primary tactic. So how can it have a big effect at all?
2. NBA zone is not a true zone, unlike the college game. No NBA zone defense can feature an unguarded defender inside the free-throw lane because of the 3 second violation.
3. The bigger change is the taking away of hand-checks and hard fouls. A prime MJ would drop 50 with the kind of mollycoddling today's perimeter players get.

Of course, even after ignoring these facts, Kobe nut-huggers will not respond to 2 very obvious facts that poke a hole in their little theory:

1. Kobe played and won 2 titles before the zone was instituted. If he was the main man (not Shaq, according to Laker fan) on those title teams, why didn't he just drop 35 each game?
2. MJ played both the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons as a 40 year old with a bum knee as the #1 option on the Wiz. The "suffocating" zone defense couldn't prevent this broken-down old man from putting 23 PPG and 20 PPG respectively in those 2 years. His PER in these 2 years (20.8 and 19.3) was not too far behind Kobe's pre-zone-era PER in the 1999-00 year (21.7) when he allegedly was the engine of a Laker title. A young MJ would have torn up the modern era.

[21_Blessings]

Laker fan is delusional. Kobe would look pretty average going up against the old school hard nosed defense Jordan had to face.

Good job outing yourself. Now everyone can clearly see you know nothing about how basketball is actually played.

[TheMACHINE]

and if Kobe came out and said that he DONT want old school defense, you fuckers would say something to hate on him too.

[Allanon]

zone defenses typically do not involve aggressive pressure on the ball handler and allow the offensive team to pass the ball around the perimeter, leading to more time being used by the offensive team before a shot is attempted.

OMFG, Can't you even read what you are posting? :lol You bolded this part which actually proves my point? WTF? The zone stops players from getting into the paint.

Hello? Shots in the paint is much more effective than jacking up shots from the perimeter :lol

It says right there, "allow the offensive team to pass the ball AROUND THE PERIMETER".

Many zones pack defenders in the lane but allow the offensive team to take long-range shots.

[Pero]

You gotta be drunk.

[Allanon]

Laker fan is delusional. Kobe would look pretty average going up against the old school hard nosed defense Jordan had to face. The nba is constantly changing the rules to make it a SG's game in order to find the next Jordan.

Mavfan is delusional.

Jeff Van Coach himself says the Zone defense makes it much harder for guard penetration.

Instead of coming up with some more of your idiocy, please post some proof.

[Allanon]

What? Are you drunk? That's not what he said.

Are you drunk?

That's exactly what he said.

Lefty understands that the Zone Defense allows for guard penetration, points in the paint.... unlike these other fans that don't know jack about basketball. :lol

That other fool even posted a quote that specifically says "LONG RANGE SHOTS" and killed his own argument. :lol

[Double-Up]

OMFG, Can't you even read what you are posting? :lol You bolded this part which actually proves my point? WTF? The zone stops players from getting into the paint.

Hello? Shots in the paint is much more effective than jacking up shots from the perimeter :lol

It says right there, "allow the offensive team to pass the ball AROUND THE PERIMETER".
Many zones pack defenders in the lane but allow the offensive team to take long-range shots.

So what? I stated zone's are moreso geared towards stopping post players which is why their allowed today, A- shortage of real centers, B- NBA wants this to be a guards game, case fucking closed lakerfan.

[mavs>spurs2]

Mavfan is delusional.

Jeff Van Coach himself says the Zone defense makes it much harder for guard penetration.

Instead of coming up with some more of your idiocy, please post some proof.

Yes, it makes it much harder to drive compared to the pussified one on one defense with no handchecking or breathing on the offensive player that is played today, but not harder to score against than the hard nosed defense that used to be played. Back when it was real basketball, before the NBA and WNBA merged.

[Allanon]

So what? I stated zone's are moreso geared towards stopping post players which is why their allowed today, A- shortage of real centers, B- NBA wants this to be a guards game, case fucking closed lakerfan.

You stupid fuck.

It is geared towards stopping paint penetration from perimeter players. That's why they "PACK THE LANE" just like your article said.

Zones collapse on perimeter players when they try to penetrate...see the 2008 Finals Celtics vs Kobe. 3-4 man zones ... let the other players get theirs :lol

Forget Kobe, LeBron would average 40 points a game if he didn't have to face a 2-3 man zone each and every play.

And we all know LeBron ain't a post player :lol

[Pero]

Are you drunk?

That's exactly what he said.

wow... ok
1.


The only difference is HOW they would get their points: in zone, they are more often wide open on 3's; in no zone situation, more penetrations, FT's...

So let me explain what this is saying. If there is a zone, there are more outside shots (=easier). If there IS NOT a zone, there are more inside shots(=easier).

2.


At least you understand that a zone allows for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans.

So let me explain what this is saying. If there IS a zone there are more inside shots (=easier).


1. doesn't correspond to 2.

[Allanon]

Yes, it makes it much harder to drive compared to the pussified one on one defense with no handchecking or breathing on the offensive player that is played today, but not harder to score against than the hard nosed defense that used to be played. Back when it was real basketball, before the NBA and WNBA merged.

Stupid mother fucker. Can you not read?

Where did I say anything about Hand checking?

I specifically talked about ZONE DEFENSE ONLY.

RIF.

[Pero]

Lefty understands that the Zone Defense allows for guard penetration, points in the paint.... unlike these other fans that don't know jack about basketball. :lol


My god, I swear sometimes I think you were dropped on your head when you were a baby.

[Allanon]

wow... ok
1.


So let me explain what this is saying. If there is a zone, there are more outside shots (=easier). If there IS NOT a zone, there are more inside shots(=easier).

2.


So let me explain what this is saying. If there IS a zone there are more inside shots (=easier).


1. doesn't correspond to 2.

I'm not sure if you understand English correctly. It seems you are a foreigner so I won't make fun of you.

Please ask Lefty to explain it to you.

Lefty, if you're still around, please explain it, I don't want to seem like a dick picking on somebody who doesn't understand English.

[mavs>spurs2]

Stupid mother fucker. Can you not read?

Where did I say anything about Hand checking?

I specifically talked about ZONE DEFENSE ONLY.

RIF.

So you agree that after all Stern has done to make it a SG's game, teams are starting to get creative and do the next best thing besides good old fashioned hard nosed defense, by playing zone. Ok.

[Warlord23]

Let me simplify this for Laker fan

22 year-old KB in 99-00 with no zone D: 21.7 PER
40-year-old MJ in 01-02 with zone D: 20.8 PER

[Pero]

You stupid fuck.

It is geared towards stopping paint penetration from perimeter players. That's why they "PACK THE LANE" just like your article said.

Do you have a multiple personality disorder or something?

You just said:



Lefty understands that the Zone Defense allows for guard penetration, points in the paint....

:huh:huh:huh

[mavsfan1000]

Obviously. Kobe wants to go 1-on-1 instead of 1-on-5. Zones rule though. They do need to stop the star treatment though.

[mavs>spurs2]

LOL allanon getting pissed about anything that goes against his revisionist history and slinging insults. You're right brah, Kobe faces a much harder defense than anything ever before seen and still puts up 30ppg, he's the undisputed GOAT. The NBA definitely isn't desperate for a new Jordan. Kobe is living proof of what would have happened if Wilt's daddy hooked up with MJ's momma. Immortal Kobe! :lmao

[Allanon]

So you agree that after all Stern has done to make it a SG's game, teams are starting to get creative and do the next best thing besides good old fashioned hard nosed defense, by playing zone. Ok.

Outlawing hand-checking on the perimeter is child's play compared to the Zone.

The Zone defense has made it much more difficult for perimeter players to penetrate into the paint. This is why there are so many jump shooting teams now.

[Allanon]

LOL allanon getting pissed about anything that goes against his revisionist history and slinging insults. You're right brah, Kobe faces a much harder defense than anything ever before seen and still puts up 30ppg, he's the undisputed GOAT. The NBA definitely isn't desperate for a new Jordan. Kobe is living proof of what would have happened if Wilt's daddy hooked up with MJ's momma. Immortal Kobe! :lmao

Lol M>S actually thinking I'm pissed.

You're one stupid mother fucker :lol

[Allanon]

Do you have a multiple personality disorder or something?

You just said:



:huh:huh:huh

That was a typo but you understand what I mean from my first few posts.

[Double-Up]

That was a typo but you understand what I mean from my first few posts.

I understand you're on the verge of a nervous breakdown. :lol


Thus symptomssymptomssymptoms may differ for describing a nervousnervousnervous breakdownbreakdownbreakdown, but one can look for the following behaviors as possible symptomssymptomssymptoms that might precipitate a psychotic episode:


Disinterest in work or family life
Disinterest in social life or alienation from previously close friends and family
Sleep disruption or much longer periods of sleep
Significant changes in appetite, such as eating too little or too much
Paranoid thoughts, such as the thought people are trying to harm you
Thoughts of grandeur or invincibility
Feelings of persistent anxiety or panic attacks
Hearing voices
Seeing people who are not there
Thoughts of dying or wish to die
Exhibiting strong or violent anger
Having flashbacks to a prior traumatic event
Increasing dependence on alcohol or drugs
Inability to pursue a normal life, normal activities or normal relationships

[Allanon]

Let me simplify this for Laker fan

22 year-old KB in 99-00 with no zone D: 21.7 PER
40-year-old MJ in 01-02 with zone D: 20.8 PER

Kobe's PER is higher than Jordan's.

Thanks Spurfan :toast

[Allanon]

I understand you're on the verge of a nervous breakdown. :lol

:lol Answer the question Double, you seemed to have forgotten your statements again

[Pero]

That was a typo but you understand what I mean from my first few posts.

Uh I'm not sure I do. I either don't or you're crazy.

Zone defenses in general are to stop penetration and make it more difficult for post players. Do you agree with this or not?

[Allanon]

Obviously. Kobe wants to go 1-on-1 instead of 1-on-5. Zones rule though. .

This fan "gets it"

Only idiots like Double think that going 1 on 1 is more difficult :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

Lol M>S actually thinking I'm pissed.

You're one stupid mother fucker :lol

As long as my point was made that everyone doesn't agree with you on these things and that Kobe's game would suffer under those old rules. He'd have an Allen Iversonesque FG% if he faced the same defensive antics that Jordan had to deal with. Kobe is just talking out of his ass to win some points and help his public perception. Kobe doesn't really want to see The Glove and Xavier McDaniel up in his jersey, especially without the risk of outside interference and pussy calls.

[Allanon]

Uh I'm not sure I do. I either don't or you're crazy.

Zone defenses in general are to stop penetration and make it more difficult for post players. Do you agree with this or not?

Exactly agree with it. And this is exactly what Lefty said and is exactly what I said.

WTF are you arguing about?

[Allanon]

As long as my point was made that everyone doesn't agree with you on these things and that Kobe's game would suffer under those old rules. He'd have an Allen Iversonesque FG% if he faced the same defensive antics that Jordan had to deal with. Kobe is just talking out of his ass to win some points and help his public perception. Kobe doesn't really want to see The Glove and Xavier McDaniel up in his jersey, especially without the risk of outside interference and pussy calls.

That's all relative...I don't know how Kobe would fair against old school players. If you think the old school defenders would give Kobe a hard time, I don't agree but I don't have a problem with that.

But the point is, going 1 on 1 is much easier than going 1 on 5 zone defenses, as your fellow Mavs fan said.

[Pero]

Exactly agree with it. And this is exactly what Lefty said.

OMG, yes HE did. I was arguing because it wasn't what you said. You now seem to be saying that what you said first was a typo? And then I'm the one with the bad English.

[mavs>spurs2]

That's all relative...I don't know how Kobe would fair against old school players.

But the point is, going 1 on 1 is much easier than going 1 on 5 zone defenses, as your fellow Mavs fan said.

I like to call today's defense ".5 on 1" rather than "1on1" because today's players are only allowed to play half ass defense. Sure it's harder to go 1 on 5 than it is to beat one defender who can't really play any more than crippled defense. But zone basketball isn't good basketball, you should know this from playing at the high school and college level. The zone is so easy to break down and beat with decent ball movement. Zone is just an alternative that teams have had to employ to combat the way the league is set up today.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

of course he does, he wants to prove he can be as good as jordan which we all know he isn't and never will be.

heyyoooo

[Allanon]

OMG, yes HE did. I was arguing because it wasn't what you said. You now seem to be saying that what you said first was a typo? And then I'm the one with the bad English.

I don't mean to make fun of your lack of understanding, I know English is not your first language. I apologize if it comes that way. I'm trying to help you understand the language here.

Here is what Lefty said:
"The only difference is HOW they would get their points: in zone, they are more often wide open on 3's; in no zone situation, more penetrations, FT's..."
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4041397&postcount=17

Here is what I said:
"At least you understand that a zone allows for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans. I give you props for that "
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4041424&postcount=21

Now where do you see the problem, please show me and I'll show you the intricacies of the English language which may make it hard to understand.

[Allanon]

The zone is so easy to break down and beat with decent ball movement.

Yup, you can break the zone with team play. You can't break down defenses by yourself any more, you need the team to help.

In the old days, it was much easier for the Superstar to break down the defense just by himself.

[Pero]

Here is what Lefty said:
"The only difference is HOW they would get their points: in zone, they are more often wide open on 3's; in no zone situation, more penetrations, FT's..."
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4041397&postcount=17

Here is what I said:
"At least you understand that a zone allows for easier inside scoring, unlike some other fans. I give you props for that "
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4041424&postcount=21

Now where do you see the problem, please show me and I'll show you the intricacies of the English language which may make it hard to understand.

I'm not really sure if you're just trolling me now or not.

Anyway, if you agreed with me that zone makes it more difficult for penetrations and post players (which was basically also what lefty said) how can you say that it allows for easier inside scoring?
THAT isn't clear to me.

[mavs>spurs2]

Yup, you can break the zone with team play. You can't break down defenses by yourself any more, you need the team to help.

In the old days, it was much easier for the Superstar to break down the defense just by himself.

So then let me ask you this. Why would teams want to employ a defense that is so easy to break down?

[Allanon]

I'm not really sure if you're just trolling me now or not.

Anyway, if you agreed with me that zone makes it more difficult for penetrations and post players (which was basically also what lefty said) how can you say that it allows for easier inside scoring?
THAT isn't clear to me.

I don't know what you mean but let's make this easy.

I think you, lefty and me all agree on the same thing.


The Zone is much more difficult for penetrating players.
It is much easier to shoot outside jumpshots in a zone


That's makes it easy. If you agree this is correct, then we all agree

[Allanon]

So then let me ask you this. Why would teams want to employ a defense that is so easy to break down?

Because it stops the 1 superstar player.

Guys like Kobe, LeBron and DWade can't just break down their man and get to the basket at free will like a 1on1 would allow.

[Pero]

I don't know what you mean but let's make this easy.

I think you, lefty and me all agree on the same thing.


The Zone is much more difficult for penetrating players.
It is much easier to shoot outside jumpshots in a zone


That's makes it easy. If you agree this is correct, then we all agree

LOL yes, I agree. But you said that it allows for easier inside scoring. You don't find that contradictory? :lol

[Allanon]

LOL yes, I agree. But you said that it allows for easier inside scoring. You don't find that contradictory? :lol

I've had a few typos as you pointed out, but I've been saying the same thing

Very hard when I'm answering 5 guys at once. Much easier to answer questions 1 on 1 :lol

[Pero]

I've had a few typos as you pointed out, but I've been saying the same thing

:lmao



Very hard when I'm answering 5 guys at once. Much easier to answer questions 1 on 1 :lol

Right. :D

[Allanon]

Hey Double-Up, where did you go man?

Nobody seems to be backing up your ideas that a 5 on 1 Zone is easier on players like Kobe than 1 on 1

Learn yourself some basketball, fool :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

Because it stops the 1 superstar player.

Guys like Kobe, LeBron and DWade can't just break down their man and get to the basket at free will like a 1on1 would allow.

So basically what I've been saying, Stern has done everything possible to make it a SG's game, and teams are having to resort to zone to combat this. Case in point.

[Allanon]

So basically what I've been saying, Stern has done everything possible to make it a SG's game, and teams are having to resort to zone to combat this. Case in point.

What does this have to do with a "5 on 1 zone defense is more difficult on guys like Kobe and LeBron than a 1 on 1"?

Do you agree with my point that 5 on 1 zone defense is more difficult than 1 on 1 defense?

[Allanon]

Right. :D

Yeah, you got me, I just re-read the whole thing and realized I left the "NOT" out. I have added it in :bang

Read everything else I have said, it contradicts that typo :lol

[Pero]

Yeah, you got me, I just re-read the whole thing and realized I left the "NOT" out. I have added it in :lol

:)

[Metheny]

I wonder if Kobe is aware of the panic that has set in over him getting ready to eclipse MJ's career.

is this a joke?:lol

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe wants old school D?

The same guy who does a lot of vocal flopping?

Please, if he played in the 80's or 90's ,he would be whining like a bitch

This is the first thing to came to mind :lol

Every game this guy screams EYYYY everytime he goes to the rim, flails like he's getting shot out of a cannon on jumpshots and then glares or whines at officials if he's not getting calls on minimal contact and he's talking wanting the old rules back?!? I call bullshit :lol

[djohn2oo8]

I wonder if Kobe is aware of the panic that has set in over him getting ready to eclipse MJ's career.

Insecure Laker fan, nothing to see here

[djohn2oo8]

Mike
http://neswsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/michael-jordan-mj-mj-23.jpg
Not Mike

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j217/RLD10/KobeBryantBulls2.jpg

[The Franchise]

Anyone that thinks today's rules make it harder for a perimeter player to score is one of two things.

1. To young to have seen basketball played under the oldschool rules.

2. Stupid as hell.

If these motherfuckers look watered down already with these soft rules, can you imagine how basketball would suffer if they had to score against real defense? Some of these supertars would be averaging 18 ppg. :lol Kobe wants the oldschool rules back? Getdafuckouttaherewitdatbullshitt!! :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Anyone that thinks today's rules make it harder for a perimeter player to score is one of two things.

1. To young to have seen basketball played under the oldschool rules.

2. Stupid as hell.

If these motherfuckers look watered down already with these soft rules, can you imagine how basketball would suffer if they had to score against real defense? Some of these supertars would be averaging 18 ppg. :lol Kobe wants the oldschool rules back? Getdafuckouttaherewitdatbullshitt!! :lmao

B/ecause he can shoot I dont think it would be as bad as you would think Kobe, Ray Nash joe johnson th ebest shooters would still thrive "DRIVERS"
Aaron Brooks, Wade, Lebron would suffer more ...
with hand checks allowed Kobe Lebron and wade would be even better defenders ...

[Amaso]

You have to be mentally handicapped to say that the old-rules wouldn't help a shooting guard like Kobe. It would be funny to see Kobe get to isolate his defender every single time down the floor. Anyways, I wouldn't want to see a player like Lebron with the old defensive rules because it would be impossible to stop him from scoring. You can't really contain Lebron without zone defense.

[Allanon]

You have to be mentally handicapped to say that the old-rules wouldn't help a shooting guard like Kobe.

It would be funny to see Kobe get to isolate his defender every single time down the floor.

You can't really contain Lebron without zone defense.


All of it true.

[djohn2oo8]

You have to be mentally handicapped to say that the old-rules wouldn't help a shooting guard like Kobe. It would be funny to see Kobe get to isolate his defender every single time down the floor. Anyways, I wouldn't want to see a player like Lebron with the old defensive rules because it would be impossible to stop him from scoring. You can't really contain Lebron without zone defense.

Yeah ok, it's not like SGs don't get enough help by driving to the basket for the and 1...If they had the old rules, you would see how Kobe would perform as teams would murder him on the way to the basket

[HarlemHeat37]

Well the last time Kobe faced the hand-check rules, he had arguably the worst performance in NBA Finals history..he's "old-school" though, what a cool dude..

[Allanon]

This isn't about taking away from the Celtics. They won fair and square from my point of view.

But you would have to be blind to not see that there was plenty of hand-checking AND zone defense in the Lakers/Celtics 2008 Finals.

Kobe got it all in that series:
1) Zone Defense
2) Hand-check
3) Jordan Rules

nepmd2ygMK4

ps. This isn't a Kobe thread either. Please debate on the zone or hand-checking as it would apply to all Superstar players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, Dirk, etc.

It's not specific to Kobe, all the Superstars get this kind of defense these days. I have no doubt LeBron would be unstoppable with 1on1 no zone defense.

[Allanon]

Great team players welcome zone defenses, I know I did! I would pray the other team went into zone, because that told me my shooters were getting wide open shots. A zone defense can be beat with two passes, one if you have a slashing PG.

Agreed.

Zone defenses are catered to great teams, whereas the old 1 on 1 defense catered to the superstars.

[BUMP]

The game would be awesome if they allowed the old school defensive rules to return.

Let me ask you guys this

Do ya'll ever watch NCAA and NBA games and notice a huge difference in the intensity of the game like I do?

In the NCAA they will let you get away with a lot more. The NBA is trying to make the game as finesse as possible to bring in larger audiences, higher ratings, and higher scoring. If you watch two good teams play in NCAA rarely do you ever see easy layups. Perimeter defenders are in your chest everytime you touch the ball. That's how the game should be played.

The NBA will never allow you to do that and I, personally, would love for the NBA to return back to the old school rules even though it would mean lower scoring games.

[Double-Up]

Hey Double-Up, where did you go man?

Nobody seems to be backing up your ideas that a 5 on 1 Zone is easier on players like Kobe than 1 on 1

Learn yourself some basketball, fool :lol

Hoes before chores...

[Allanon]

Hoes before chores...

Back up your "challenge to all lakerfans" yah pussy. :lol

[pauls931]

hand checking is what older players use to compensate for their lack of lateral movement.

[hitmanyr2k]

If the old rules came back now the game would be even more of a mockery than what it's become. The star perimeter players today are too spoiled to go back to the way it was. They've had 5 years of Stern kissing their ass and catering to them. It's gotten to the point where it's not enough where they get 10+ free throws a game. They flop, flail and whine when minimal contact is made. If the NBA were to give leverage back to the defensive player the flailing and complaining from these sissy stars would only get worse.

[MiamiHeat]

Here's a fun fact. Across the entire spectrum of basketball fans, the only fan base that thinks perimeter players of today face tougher defenses than the 80s/90s lot are Laker fans. It's their one and only way of trying to put Kobe in the same breath as MJ/Magic/Bird. The rest of the NBA fanbase, commentators and players themselves know the truth, which is:

1. NBA teams use zone about 10% of the time. The zone defense is only used as a change-up, not as a primary tactic. So how can it have a big effect at all?
2. NBA zone is not a true zone, unlike the college game. No NBA zone defense can feature an unguarded defender inside the free-throw lane because of the 3 second violation.
3. The bigger change is the taking away of hand-checks and hard fouls. A prime MJ would drop 50 with the kind of mollycoddling today's perimeter players get.

Of course, even after ignoring these facts, Kobe nut-huggers will not respond to 2 very obvious facts that poke a hole in their little theory:

1. Kobe played and won 2 titles before the zone was instituted. If he was the main man (not Shaq, according to Laker fan) on those title teams, why didn't he just drop 35 each game?
2. MJ played both the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons as a 40 year old with a bum knee as the #1 option on the Wiz. The "suffocating" zone defense couldn't prevent this broken-down old man from putting 23 PPG and 20 PPG respectively in those 2 years. His PER in these 2 years (20.8 and 19.3) was not too far behind Kobe's pre-zone-era PER in the 1999-00 year (21.7) when he allegedly was the engine of a Laker title. A young MJ would have torn up the modern era.

:ihit

wow. great fucking post, i am in awe at the anal rape you just gave them

[Killakobe81]

If the old rules came back now the game would be even more of a mockery than what it's become. The star perimeter players today are too spoiled to go back to the way it was. They've had 5 years of Stern kissing their ass and catering to them. It's gotten to the point where it's not enough where they get 10+ free throws a game. They flop, flail and whine when minimal contact is made. If the NBA were to give leverage back to the defensive player the flailing and complaining from these sissy stars would only get worse.

I think the players would adjust ...
But you are right it was stern sissyfying the league ...i think kobe would be fine artest would thrive and Lamar could adjust ...but Pau?
Pau would be slightly above average with old rules ...

[MiamiHeat]

I'd just like to add

the Defensive 3-second violation changed the way NBA plays defense forever.

Zone + defensive 3 second is not a real zone as we know it.

[Allanon]

Here's a fun fact. Across the entire spectrum of basketball fans, the only fan base that thinks perimeter players of today face tougher defenses than the 80s/90s lot are Laker fans.

I stopped reading after this part since it's obviously wrong; the rest must be equally as useless. Typical hate.

Jeff Van Gundy has said on the air numerous times that Kobe's 81 is greater than Wilt's 100 since Wilt didn't have to deal with the advanced zone defenses.

I think JVG knows more about basketball than all of us combined. :lol

[Killakobe81]

:ihit

wow. great fucking post, i am in awe at the anal rape you just gave them

BOTH warlord and miami heat are foolish:

WATCH the video of the Celts that alanon posted.
The Celts play a strong side man/zone hybrid if you and Miami heat can't see or admit that then you don't KNOW shit about basketball.

note: the Lakers do the same a lot gainst star players ...10% is way to low an estimate ...

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL @ using a JVG quote that compares a performance in the 1960's to a performance in 2006..yes, I'm sure that's what Warlord meant LOL..

[Allanon]

Are we not talking about advanced Zone defenses like JVG said? :lol Zone defense wasn't allowed again until ~2001 or somewhere around there. Everything before was "No Zone".

Warlord said only Laker fan thinks so. JVG does too.

I take JVG over random Spurfan.

Thankyou.

[MiamiHeat]

SOme of you are just too young and haven't done your research

Michael Jordan was the most double and triple teamed player in the history of the NBA.

NLv2F33snCE


Notice how many times like 1:50 or 2:24 in the video, the bigs are CAMPING IN THE LANE, not even CLOSE to the guy they are guarding.

in today's nba = EVERY BIG has to stand outside of the paint or be called for defensive 3 second.

this means = more layups and drives to the rim because the bigs cannot position themselves like in MJ's era

[Killakobe81]

SOme of you are just too young and haven't done your research

Michael Jordan was the most double and triple teamed player in the history of the NBA.

NLv2F33snCE

This was one of your best posts in a while the Pistons at times were playing a zone ...the refs just didnt always call it.
I agree MJ was doubled a lot BECAUSE he was SO FAR ahead of his time.
I am NOT LBJ=MJ BUT

Teleport Lebron back then with his athletic gifts?

Lebron even though his fundamentals ... are NOT as strong as MJ's LEBRON would of BEASTED back then ...

[Killakobe81]

This was one of your best posts in a while the Pistons at times were playing a zone ...the refs just didnt always call it.
I agree MJ was doubled a lot BECAUSE he was SO FAR ahead of his time.
I am NOT LBJ=MJ BUT

Teleport Lebron back then with his athletic gifts?

Lebron even though his fundamentals ... are NOT as strong as MJ's LEBRON would of BEASTED back then ...

As great as a defender as Dumars and Rodman were ... Lebron would of tore those guys apart with his passing and his size/speed ...

[Killakobe81]

and who doubts MJ would dominate in today's era? He dominated in the LAST era ...
Kobe lebron and Mj ALL owould of domnatedin any era ...but for all the disadvantages you say MJ had the BIGGEST ADVANTAGE was that he was a greater ATHLETE than any of his peers
LBJ is the best athlete of his era but the dropoff of LBj to say Wade as an athlete is very small in fact the dropoff from LBJ to Rudy Gay is not huge ...
That is a HUGE advantage MJ had only Nique and maybe clyde was in his class as a PURE athlete ...

[MiamiHeat]

but Kobe doesn't dominate today's era

He had 1 good year, 2006, where he went on a scoring tear for a while, but even then he only shot 45% FG and did put up 35 ppg

In his 14 year career, kobe has only scored 30 ppg three times.... 3 times in 14 years

he has only led the league in scoring twice in 14 years

he has only 1 league mvp

how is he dominating anything? He's merely another superstar

[MiamiHeat]

right now I'd have to say LeBron is.

[Killakobe81]

but Kobe doesn't dominate today's era

He had 1 good year, 2006, where he went on a scoring tear for a while, but even then he only shot 45% FG and did put up 35 ppg

In his 14 year career, kobe has only scored 30 ppg three times.... 3 times in 14 years

he has only led the league in scoring twice in 14 years

he has only 1 league mvp

how is he dominating anything? He's merely another superstar

After 1 good post this. ^

he has rings scoring titles and is conisedered by most SANE people either the 1st or 2nd best player in the NBA maybe not like MJ but who is?

Are Bird and Magic less dominate cuz they dont have MJ's numbers?

Statheads are not true fans they get too wrapped in numbers. Bird and Magic transcended numbers ...

[Chieflion]

First of all, I would like you guys to watch this video, showing you the real defense of the 90s.

dxBhQKtG2Zo

You guys decide for yourselves whether it is easier to score against the 90s Knicks or the shit defense these days.

[Killakobe81]

James has led the league in scoring once.
James has 0 titles, in fact he's never won a game in the finals.
He only has 3 all NBA first team awards, yet was crowned King of the NBA as a rookie.
He's never averaged more than 30, including this year.
Of all the top players in the league, I'm talking top 5, he's been the biggest failure, hands down.

good points Luva ... but failure? Really?
BUT if he doesnt win this year with HCA ....then i may agree ...

[Allanon]

How are ANY of those supposed "tough" 90's defense videos tougher than this defense? :lol

It's all there + constant Zone defense on every play.

nepmd2ygMK4

[Chieflion]

How are ANY of those supposed "tough" 90's defense videos tougher than this defense? :lol

It's all there + constant Zone defense on every play.

nepmd2ygMK4
This only shows that the refs are stupid for not enforcing rules. You mad or what?

[Allanon]

This only shows that the refs are stupid for not enforcing rules. You mad or what?

You obviously mad at that hardcore defense :lol

[Killakobe81]

How are ANY of those supposed "tough" 90's defense videos tougher than this defense? :lol

It's all there + constant Zone defense.

nepmd2ygMK4

Plus the Celts had much BETTER athletes playing that defense KG & posey are as good or better than any 90's defenders outside of Pippen and if you say to me Rodman (who i think was overated defensively after he left detroit) he and pip was on his team ... knicks played great team defense but individually maybe only Greg Anthony ...

Pistons had young rodman and Dumars ...outside of Detroit ...not impressed with 90's defensive squads and that was EARLY 90's ...

Most of the other good 90's defense just played slow ball (Cleveland) and hacked the hell out of scorers (miami and New york)

THE early 2000 spurs were better defensively IMHO than any team since the 90's Pistons and Bulls AND MJ vanquished one and played on the other ...

Trust me dont look at the stats ...look at the teams ...who was the defensive stopper on the Knicks or Heat of the 90's or the Cavs?

Would you rather face starks, steve Smith and Gerald wilkins or Raja Bell, Battier, Posey SJAX and Bruce Bowen?

90's defense overrated ... only 3 truly great defensive teams since i have been watching ball Pistons 90's and once last decade Mj's bulls and spurs ...

[Chieflion]

You obviously mad at that hardcore defense :lol
All I see in that video was Kobe whining whenever a Celtic went physical with him. Or his arm flailing whenever he put up a jump shot. And those were illegal tactics. You just proved my point. Kobe's defenders should not be allowed to hand check Kobe. They did. That is a foul but the refs did not call it. Celtics got away with illegal shit. That was all.

[Allanon]

All I see in that video was Kobe whining whenever a Celtic went physical with him. Or his arm flailing whenever he put up a jump shot. . .

You are obviously a blind hater if that is all you saw.

There were quite a few articles ranking the 2008 Celtics as one of the best defenses ever.

You mad? :lol

[Chieflion]

You are obviously a blind hater if that is all you saw.

There were quite a few articles ranking the 2008 Celtics as one of the best defenses ever.

You mad? :lol
What else did you see? The Celtics were using legal defensive tactics one on one against Kobe? Not in that video.

[Allanon]

What else did you see? The Celtics were using legal defensive tactics one on one against Kobe? Not in that video.

I see defense as tough as or tougher than the "real 90's defense" video you posted.

You mad cuz of this?


First of all, I would like you guys to watch this video, showing you the real defense of the 90s.

dxBhQKtG2Zo

You guys decide for yourselves whether it is easier to score against the 90s Knicks or the shit defense these days.

[Chieflion]

I see defense as tough as or tougher than the video you posted.

You mad cuz of this?
I see plenty of illegal defensive tactics, refs swallowing their whistles and the video maker complaining and whining about the illegal defensive tactics. Those tactics were dirty. Not "tough". In the 90s, handchecking was legal, snd fighting for position in the post was very physical. Obviously, you didn't see the video.

[Allanon]

I see plenty of illegal defensive tactics, refs swallowing their whistles and the video maker complaining and whining about the illegal defensive tactics. Those tactics were dirty. Not "tough".

As tough or tougher than this shit



dxBhQKtG2Zo

[Killakobe81]

Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defense

If you had to guard MJ would you rather have the Payton (great defender but too small) Dumars (ditto) Bobby Phills (RIP)?! eddie Jones (i love eddie BUT) or

Battier, Bell, SJAX, Prince, Bowen Kobe etc? 90's overrated you take away MJ and most of that decade was shit ...sorry.

I agree MJ was GOAT but league was watered down way down ...

[Killakobe81]

Better than Knicks defense:

Twin tower spurs and any of their first 3 title teams ....

90's bulls ESPECIALLY the first 3 ...

the bad boys

2008 Celts ....

the Larry Brown Pistons

Any of the above destroys Knicks, heat, Jazz suns etc. of the 90's

in fact Id take 2000 sixers defense over that Knicks defense because they did it without cheap fouls

[dbreiden83080]

Of course he does, he wants to prove he can be as good as Jordan which we all know he isn't and never will be.

He's not even in Jordan's realm..

[Metheny]

1990-1991 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

Wheres the perimeter players???


1991-1992 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0

okay....



1992-1993 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2

again.... jordan perimeter player


1994-1995 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1

Perimeter players?

1995-1996 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0

(notice, only one perimeter player)




1997-1998 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)




RULES CHANGE WTF HE NEED ANOTHER MICHAEL JORDAN WHERE NOT DOING SO WELL !!!!!
2003-2004 ppg:

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0


2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)
(Notice a spike in scoring and notice how many perimeter players top the PPG lists)

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

Woah wtf is going here O yeah forgot 3 second rule no handchecking 8-9 More FT a game..... etc



2005-2006 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2


2006-2007 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6


2007-2008 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2

2008-2009 ppg

Points Per Game

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3



Just to show you kobetards the real facts

[crc21209]

Today's star guards.....Kobe, Wade, etc. wouldnt last a day in the 80's NBA style of play...

[TheGreatest23]

Today's star guards.....Kobe, Wade, etc. wouldnt last a day in the 80's NBA style of play...

This cat is absolutely right. You can add Michael Jordan to that list too. The old 23 couldn't do crap in the 80's.

Bow down to The King, bitches.

[MiamiHeat]

This cat is absolutely right. You can add Michael Jordan to that list too. The old 23 couldn't do crap in the 80's.

Bow down to The King, bitches.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 4 posts, with sigs and trash talking all set up already?

I smell a Laker fan posing as a Cavs fan to troll :)

[TheGreatest23]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 4 posts, with sigs and trash talking all set up already?

I smell a Laker fan posing as a Cavs fan to troll :)

Sons, you look like Nick Cage.

Bow down to The King, bitch.

[Killakobe81]

Today's star guards.....Kobe, Wade, etc. wouldnt last a day in the 80's NBA style of play...

Foolish.
no one is saying that MJ was NOT the GOAT ...

But how in the world would Wade (for example) or Derrick rose not destroy Ainge or Hornacek or any of the slow white or even black guys that were STARTING 2 guards in the NBA i
In the 80's thy had better teams and better offensive talent and the league wasnt dilluted by expansion ...but guys today are bigger faster and stonger. Not BETTER but you have to be moronic not to concede that ...


But Wade, Kobe, joe johnson, roy would destroy almost all NBA 2 guards of that era you guys that cant see that don't know shit anout basketball.

this forum is really going to shit it would be depressing if it were not so comical ...

I wish the truly knowledgable fans would chime in on this ...

[Killakobe81]

And those that say (Lebron for example) couldnt get 30 in the old rules are full of shit ..

Greatness is trancendant and in the 80's/early 90's only Karl Malone, chocolate Thunnder artis gilmore, Mo Lucas and Oakley maybe were as strong as Lebron appears ...

NONE of those guys are anywhere NEAR as quick Lebron would be a great player in Mj's or ANY era or any rules ...he just needs to keep improvinh his fundamentals and post-game.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

crofl
even if the lakers win this game

what we are witnessing is what kobe is when players are actually able to play defense on him, much less 'old school'
what a full of crap whining little pussy.....he wants old school defense back so his fg% will stay at its natural 33% :lmao

[Lars]

So let me get this straight.

Kobe wants the pussy foot rules for 8 years of his prime, then as he starts declining he wants the hard rules put back in for his successors?

Ive never seen a player so obssessed with being remembered. Kobe has cememented himself in the top 15 and thats about as high as he is going to go. Sorry.