Something is wrong here.

[ClintSquint]

Why did CBS and NBC cut away from the President's speech to the American people? That was wrong.

[mookie2001]

i think it was when he busted out with "I'm not a lawyer"

[dcole50]

it's not like he was divulging any important information. you learn more from a half time interview with a player.

[The Ressurrected One]

Why did CBS and NBC cut away from the President's speech to the American people?
Sweeps

That was wrong.
Oh well, if people would rather be entertained than informed, they get what they deserve...

[Bandit2981]

Oh well, if people would rather be entertained than informed, they get what they deserve...
sounds like you just described every cable news channel

[The Ressurrected One]

hahahahaha
informed by dubya? lol lol
I think you're one of the "dumb" Democrats to whom Nbadan was referring in one of his posts.

sounds like you just described every cable news channel
So be it.

[Bandit2981]

So be it.
and so it shall be written...

[Bandit2981]

the main reason i don't like George W. Bush is because he is, hands down, the Dumbest U.S. President ever elected.
How so? Do you know his I.Q score? [\Yonivore, er, Ressurrected One]

[Clandestino]

the main reason i don't like George W. Bush is because he is, hands down, the Dumbest U.S. President ever elected.

yeah, bc you knew all the other presidents... abe lincoln, during his time, was considered nothing more than a country hick and incapable. he has gone down as one of the greatests presidents...

[desflood]

the main reason i don't like George W. Bush is because he is, hands down, the Dumbest U.S. President ever elected.
Yeah, those degrees from Yale and Harvard don't count for much anymore, do they? :lol

[Clandestino]

abraham lincoln wrote his own speeches

what does him writing his own speeches have to do with anything. no presidents in the last 50 years has written all his own speeches.

point is, during his time, abe was considered an uneducated country hick.

[Clandestino]

not when your daddy is a major political player and you come out with a C average in a pass/fail system

so, what does that say about peope who have c averages in high school and colleges other than yale and harvard?

[Clandestino]

point is, abe wrote.
he was self-educated
bush was given access to the best education this country has to offer, and he still turned out an idiot

most of the stuff you post is totally incorrect... you praise dirk for being a stoner, have no idea how social security works, and many more idiotic things i can't think of now...

[Clandestino]

they don't become president.

anything is possible in america!

[desflood]

not when your daddy is a major political player and you come out with a C average in a pass/fail system
Al Gore's daddy was also a major political player. Here's how he did.

Academic recordOn March 21, 2000, The Washington Post reported that in his second year at Harvard, Gore earned a D in one science course, a C-minus in introductory economics, and two C-pluses and a B-minus in other, unspecified courses and during his junior year, Gore earned a B, B-plus, and an A-minus in three government courses. (See United States academic grade.)

During the 2000 Presidential campaign, critics pointed out that this evidence seemed to contradict the popular perception that George W. Bush was the less intelligent of the two candidates. Gore failed five of the eight classes he took over three semesters at Vanderbilt Divinity School, and he never completed his degree at Vanderbilt Law School.

[desflood]

I don't know what you think. The point is, when the old boy ran for prez some years ago, I never heard anybody say he was dumb, despite his academic record (and the fact that there are pictures of him in Vietman looking down the barrel of his rifle). Let's talk about dumb for a minute :lol

[The Ressurrected One]

I like the way you're debating the man's intelligence when he's won every election in which he's run since 1992. Twice elected Governor of Texas -- once over a popular Democrat who was thought unbeatable. Twice elected President.

The guy has risen to the highest level of his profession -- politics -- in a shorter time than nearly anyone in the history of the country.

I'd like to be that dumb.

Oh, and before you say "his daddy did it," remember you're talking about a man that couldn't get himself re-elected President in 1992.

[mookie2001]

i dont get are yall are arguing bush is smart or not total dumbass?

he COULD make einstein look like paris hilton, but he APPEARS and ACTS like the dumbest piece of shit they could get to look good and repeat "freedom","liberty", "strength" and "conviction" 90 times apiece

all we can go by is appearances and the act that he puts on, because we're obviously not gonna be playing him in mathletic competition or brainbusters 2005

[The Ressurrected One]

you voted for him. congratulations.
As did most voters. That's how elections are won.

[mookie2001]

just not in 2000

he is my sarcastic pre-reply to your reply, oooooohhhhhhhhhh im bitter, im bitter, im a sore loser, a big sore loser, who cant let it go


if not for a "fraudulent" (as ruled by the FL supreme court) election in 2000 and after that the worst tragedy in american history, your boy never would have become a 1 or 2 term prez, so thats something to hang your hat on

[Cant_Be_Faded]

As did most voters. That's how elections are won.


As did most voters? Wrong, most voters voted for Gore in 2000.

Thats how elections are won? How do you know? they're tabulated electronically by electronic machines owned by independent corporations. Just what the hell do you know about a non-government corporation that manufactures Polling Machines responsible for the biggest election of the country?

What is ironic here is that Desflood has the words 'Slave to reason' under his name
yet the fact that he believes Bush accomplished anything at Yale or Harvard other than chicks and coke is beyond me

He got into schools because his name is Bush, and he became president because his name is Bush. THAT is why i hate the president. The fact that he's so stupid is actually good because I can easily discern an American Dumbass from a real SLAVE TO REASON. Because even republicans can admit that Bush is a dumbass. Republicans who maintain he's not, are just stupid themselves.

[desflood]

I never said Bush wasn't dumb. I wondered why Gore isn't considered dumb also. Can you answer that?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If you remember correctly, Gore was portrayed just as dumb as Bush on every comedy show for the entire election.

He was considered dumb, very dumb. People said the whole year that choosing the president would be picking the lesser of two dumbasses.

But when it came down to it, if al gore and GWB switched names, the person we know as al gore would have won.
The word "Bush" is why Bush is president.

[desflood]

It couldn't possibly have been because he was better qualified for the job!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It couldn't possibly have been because he was better qualified for the job!


Ok, I'll entertain this idea. What evidence did you have prior to the vote date on 2000 that he was better qualified for the job?

[Clandestino]

no one cares how well you did in school as long as you passed.. most jobs don't ask for a gpa, just a degree....

[Cant_Be_Faded]

gore -- 8 years HOR, 8 years Senator, 8 years VP

w. bush--6 years state governor



:lol :lol :lol
http://www.lockitupoffroad.com/Clubpics/fc351f4f.jpg

[The Ressurrected One]

just not in 2000

he is my sarcastic pre-reply to your reply, oooooohhhhhhhhhh im bitter, im bitter, im a sore loser, a big sore loser, who cant let it go


if not for a "fraudulent" (as ruled by the FL supreme court) election in 2000 and after that the worst tragedy in american history, your boy never would have become a 1 or 2 term prez, so thats something to hang your hat on
If you've made it to 2005 with the belief that President Bush stole the 2000 election still intact, you're beyond convincing otherwise.

Nevermind the Florida Supreme Court never made any such ruling. Nevermind that several post-election recounts, by Democrats, by Republicans, by reporters, by aliens, and by nutcases all showed that President Bush won the Florida electors...period.

There is no recount of the ballots, no matter how favorably you construe them to Al Gore's favor that show he won the Florida election.

The U.S. Supreme Court didn't stop the recount. They merely ruled that Florida election officials violated the ex-post facto law making prohibition of the U.S. Constitution by changing the election rules during an election and that they were violating the Voting Rights Act as well as the Equal Protection Clause by only recounting in certain heavily Democratic precincts and that, to be fair, all ballots should be recounted if they were to be recounted at all.

Florida did the smart thing, ceased counting and certified the election.

Post election analysis has confirmed it was the right thing to do. Now, had the post-election recounts gone differently, you may have a point...but, they didn't so, you don't. Get over it for Pete's sake...we've already had a subsequent election and you're still unable to count to 517 -- the lowest marge of victory?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

no one cares how well you did in school as long as you passed.. most jobs don't ask for a gpa, just a degree....


Well i dont think thats right either. I'll agree to half jobs dont ask for gpa, cuz im not sure most do. But im definatly sure most DONT.

GPA is pretty important for some jobs, like if youre an engineer or something.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If you've made it to 2005 with the belief that President Bush stole the 2000 election still intact, you're beyond convincing otherwise.



Yeah, its like why should a Tax Paying Citizen of the United States of America care or worry that his country is going to shit due to a bastardized election result, then hold resentment for years after seeing years of the consequences.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

yeah i forgot it was that same guy


i didn't know gore was in HOR too, thats crazy.

I can't wait until JEB BUSH runs for president, so we can keep the BUSH family in power, seeing as they're so overqualified for presidency.
In austin, i one time saw a sticker that said

"Bush 4012"
I had a good laugh.

[The Ressurrected One]

As did most voters? Wrong, most voters voted for Gore in 2000.
No, Gore won a nationwide popularity contest heavily weighted in California and New York -- dens of liberalism. That's why we hold elections to pick electors...not presidents. No one voted for President that day, that's just the name that was put on the ballot...you actually voted for a State slate of electors. The people that actually elect the president.

There are good and sound reasons the United States picks it Executive this way but, again, if you're still hung up on the whole Bush-stole-the-election nonsense, I'm sure an explanation of the Electoral College would be beyond you as well.

Bush won more electoral votes than Gore. Period, end of story.

You really should have paid attention in Civics class.

Thats how elections are won? How do you know? they're tabulated electronically by electronic machines owned by independent corporations. Just what the hell do you know about a non-government corporation that manufactures Polling Machines responsible for the biggest election of the country?
I'm sorry, I left my tinfoil hat at home.

What is ironic here is that Desflood has the words 'Slave to reason' under his name yet the fact that he believes Bush accomplished anything at Yale or Harvard other than chicks and coke is beyond me. He got into schools because his name is Bush, and he became president because his name is Bush. THAT is why i hate the president. The fact that he's so stupid is actually good because I can easily discern an American Dumbass from a real SLAVE TO REASON. Because even republicans can admit that Bush is a dumbass. Republicans who maintain he's not, are just stupid themselves.
That entire portion of your post is based on nothing but regurgitated Bush-hatred from the bowels of the sewers in which you run. You have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of any allegation you just made.

The fact remains, the man is President of the United States and, quite frankly, there are thousands of Yale and Harvard alum that would be offended by your statement -- and they haven't been elected President.

[The Ressurrected One]

Yeah, its like why should a Tax Paying Citizen of the United States of America care or worry that his country is going to shit due to a bastardized election result, then hold resentment for years after seeing years of the consequences.
Define the consequences, please.

[Spurminator]

If you remember correctly, Gore was portrayed just as dumb as Bush on every comedy show for the entire election.

Not really... Gore was presented as a pompous, boring robot with very little charisma or ability to relate to common people. Bush was the one portrayed as a doofus.

[The Ressurrected One]

i believe you have a rep, too Jesu--Yoni--i mean The Ressurrected One.

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpoliticsofthepeoplefrm23.showMessage?topicID=71.t opic
I'm not even familiar with that post, last August was before I started helping Yonivore with his posting.

But, it's interesting to see how he could evoke such a passionate response in that forum as well.

[The Ressurrected One]

Not really... Gore was presented as a pompous, boring robot with very little charisma or ability to relate to common people. Bush was the one portrayed as a doofus.
Presented as?

Mr. Love Story. Mr. I discovered the Love Canal environmental hazard. Mr. Internet. Yeah, his reputation wasn't deserved.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

No, Gore won a nationwide popularity contest heavily weighted in California and New York -- dens of liberalism. That's why we hold elections to pick electors...not presidents. No one voted for President that day, that's just the name that was put on the ballot...you actually voted for a State slate of electors. The people that actually elect the president.

There are good and sound reasons the United States picks it Executive this way but, again, if you're still hung up on the whole Bush-stole-the-election nonsense, I'm sure an explanation of the Electoral College would be beyond you as well.

Bush won more electoral votes than Gore. Period, end of story.

You really should have paid attention in Civics class.

I'm sorry, I left my tinfoil hat at home.

That entire portion of your post is based on nothing but regurgitated Bush-hatred from the bowels of the sewers in which you run. You have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of any allegation you just made.

The fact remains, the man is President of the United States and, quite frankly, there are thousands of Yale and Harvard alum that would be offended by your statement -- and they haven't been elected President.


elpimpo, back me up on this one with facts, cuz i know they're out there and i know you know them!

But... you claim "There are good and sound reasons the United States picks it Executive this way but..."

BUT, wasn't the electoral college good and sound back in early USA days?

And now your good and sound reasons for it being a good idea are because New York and California are quote unquote DENS OF LIBERALISM?

I am a cynic, an asshole, anything like that, but you my friend are a fascist!

Dens of liberalism? Dens of liberalism? Say what you have typed out loud to see if it doesnt sound as absurd as you are coming off to be.
Dens of liberalism?

So just because California and New york have more people living there, and most people who do live there decide to vote for gore, their vote doesnt count simply by virtue of California and New York being DENS OF LIBERALISM?

youre a facist.

you are speeding up the demise of the American Empire my friend. Educate yourself, please

el pimpo, drop some knowledge on this fool about the 'good and sound reasons' the electoral college is around today

[Spurminator]

Presented as?

Mr. Love Story. Mr. I discovered the Love Canal environmental hazard. Mr. Internet. Yeah, his reputation wasn't deserved.

I'm not commenting on who deserved what, just how they were portrayed. Whether it was accurate or not is another discussion that I'll let you guys fight over.

[bigzak25]

hey, so what's the deal ressurrected...you schizophrenic or bipolar? you on meds? just curious. thanks.


as for bush being dumb... :blah hate away...the venom just doesn't matter anymore...

[The Ressurrected One]

elpimpo, back me up on this one with facts, cuz i know they're out there and i know you know them!

But... you claim "There are good and sound reasons the United States picks it Executive this way but..."

BUT, wasn't the electoral college good and sound back in early USA days?
Yes. I've always been a fan of the electoral college.

And now your good and sound reasons for it being a good idea are because New York and California are quote unquote DENS OF LIBERALISM?
Actually, that is the good and sound reason it was instituted to begin with. So that no particular geographic area could run roughshod over another. It's a State's rights issue.

I am a cynic, an asshole, anything like that, but you my friend are a fascist!
Then, my idiot fellow poster, so are the founding fathers who invented the Electoral system of elections. If you'll read the Constitution, you were never even meant to vote for President or Senator.

Dens of liberalism? Dens of liberalism? Say what you have typed out loud to see if it doesnt sound as absurd as you are coming off to be.
I stand by it. California and New York are dens of liberalism...well, maybe soclialism is more like it.

Dens of liberalism?
Yes, but, do you often repeat yourself in written form?

So just because California and New york have more people living there, and most people who do live there decide to vote for gore, their vote doesnt count simply by virtue of California and New York being DENS OF LIBERALISM?
Nope. Not what I said. And, besides, their votes did count...the slates of electors in those two states went to Al Gore. They picked their electors.

youre a facist.
Then, by your definition, I find myself in fine company among those who wrote the U. S. Constitution.

you are speeding up the demise of the American Empire my friend. Educate yourself, please
Empire? Who's the fascist now? We're not an empire...

el pimpo, drop some knowledge on this fool about the 'good and sound reasons' the electoral college is around today
Yeah, el pimpo, do that.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i said this because you said

"as did most voters. thats how elections are won"

i pointed out you were wrong, most voters voted for gore. Then you bring into the electoral college as if you had said "he won the electoral vote" which you didn't say or imply
No shit he lost the electoral vote, if we're talking about President Bush, then obviously gore lost the electoral vote. I know what the electoral college is and why it was made but i think it was for the reasons you just now listed but back in early american times. You know, back when south dakota had a population of 1000.

The use of the electoral college now does not make much sense. There are millions of voters in each state.

And i called you a fascist because of the way you dismiss entire states holding tens of millions of people as "dens of liberalism" so that theyre individual opinions don't matter

dammit pimpo where are you

[Spurminator]

I'll listen to complaints about the electoral vote when it is also suggested that the President must gain a majority of the nation's popular vote (50%) to win the Presidency... as neither Gore nor Clinton did.

[The Ressurrected One]

i said this because you said

"as did most voters. thats how elections are won"

i pointed out you were wrong, most voters voted for gore.
Not on a state-by-state basis, where it counts. Presidential elections are won one state at a time.

Then you bring into the electoral college as if you had said "he won the electoral vote" which you didn't say or imply
Well duh, do you think that if Presidents were elected based on the popular vote presidential candidates would spend so much time on campaigning in so-called "battleground" states?

Look at it this way. If Bush had aggressively campaigned in California, he could have reduced the margin...but, why would he spend any campaign capital in a state he knew he couldn't win. Therefore, there was little effort expended and the vote showed it. Same in New York. Same for Gore in many Republican States...

That's why the popular vote is crap. It doesn't tell you anything. Campaigns are won or lost by identifying those states where you can sway the electoral votes to your camp. Period.

No shit he lost the electoral vote, if we're talking about President Bush, then obviously gore lost the electoral vote. I know what the electoral college is and why it was made but i think it was for the reasons you just now listed but back in early american times. You know, back when south dakota had a population of 1000.
Those reasons still exist. That is protected the country from my perceived dens of liberalism is just fortuitous for me (and, in my opinion, the rest of the country)...this time.

The use of the electoral college now does not make much sense. There are millions of voters in each state.
Try telling that to Rhode Island or Montana or Alaska or New Mexico. No one wants a few states (whether they are conservative or liberal) to decide national policy. If you don't leave the system intact, future national politicians won't even have to consider the positions of middle America. They'll just have to pander to the five most populated states and say to hell with the other 45.

And i called you a fascist because of the way you dismiss entire states holding tens of millions of people as "dens of liberalism" so that theyre individual opinions don't matter
Well aside from my opinion being just that, an opinion, their votes were counted -- they sent the two largest slates of Democratic electors to Washington. I can't deny that.

Unfortunately for them, Middle America banded together to offset them.

dammit pimpo where are you
If pimpo is as smart as you're tending to indicate, he knows you're wrong on this and is staying out of the argument.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'll listen to complaints about the electoral vote when it is also suggested that the President must gain a majority of the nation's popular vote (50%) to win the Presidency... as neither Gore nor Clinton did.
Actually, I think Gore did get more than 50% of the popular vote. Nevermind, I forgot about Nader.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

According to TRO's logical, if we removed half of all liberals in new york and california, and spread them out evenly over middle america, resulting in no more "dens of liberalism" then those displaced liberals votes should count more by virtue of them not being a "den of liberalism"

so as long as not too many people thinking the same thing are clutched together, then the opinions/votes count

I did take history and government, i just thought for myself while taking those classes.

[The Ressurrected One]

and i seriously doubt smaller states would get 'run over' by larger states if a popular vote decided who was president
the founding fathers went to all this trouble because they were afraid of a dictator president swaying the opinion of a largely ignorant public

but, as we have seen over the past 200 some-odd years, the senators and reps would make sure that the smaller states got their say..
I disagree. The electoral college system was specifically a demand made by the smaller colonies (led by Rhode Island, in fact) so that Virginia and the larger colonies wouldn't have a disproportionate amount of influence.

Yes, they were afraid of a dictator, but the three equal branches of government concept pretty much neutralized that fear.

[The Ressurrected One]

According to TRO's logical, if we removed half of all liberals in new york and california, and spread them out evenly over middle america, resulting in no more "dens of liberalism" then those displaced liberals votes should count more by virtue of them not being a "den of liberalism"

so as long as not too many people thinking the same thing are clutched together, then the opinions/votes count
That's not what I said.


I did take history and government, i just thought for myself while taking those classes.
That's called daydreaming.

[Bandit2981]

Try telling that to Rhode Island or Montana or Alaska or New Mexico. No one wants a few states (whether they are conservative or liberal) to decide national policy. If you don't leave the system intact, future national politicians won't even have to consider the positions of middle America. They'll just have to pander to the five most populated states and say to hell with the other 45.
so in other words, the electoral college provides a voice for the minority? but, you are also opposing the democratic filibusters, which is in principle the same thing(protecting minority rights so the majority doesnt just trample all over). can you say, hypocrite?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so in other words, the electoral college provides a voice for the minority? but, you are also opposing the democratic filibusters, which is in principle the same thing(protecting minority rights so the majority doesnt just trample all over). can you say, hypocrite?


Plus it's his precious electoral college that he is defending that grants california and new york more electoral votes combined than like 5 or 6 middle states!

and he also said somewhere "then they'd just focus on winning a few states"

they do do that!

http://www.lockitupoffroad.com/Clubpics/fc351f4f.jpg

[Cant_Be_Faded]

They'll just have to pander to the five most populated states and say to hell with the other 45.



ha

[The Ressurrected One]

i just think that it's ridiculous that 50% of people don't vote in the presidential elections

and they don't vote because they don't feel it will count at all...like in texas, if you voted democrat, you might as well have smeared your feces all over the ballot...

something has to be done to make people feel that their votes count

will having a popular vote change the outcome of an election if it had been conducted using the electoral college...probably not. but at least people wouldn't waste their time bitching (even righteously) about something they can't change.

also i think that presidents shouldn't run on a ticket with their vice-president, the runner-up in the election should be vice-president
I agree.

They can start by rescinding the 17th amendment. And, by the way, would you please find for me -- anywhere in the U.S. Constitution -- where the people popularly elect a president?

In fact, the U.S. Constitution states that the States will choose electors in whatever manner they want.

Quick lesson.

The People's representative in the federal government is, just like the name implies, your U.S. House of Representatives. The State's representative, until the 17th amendment was rammed through, were the Senators (read the original language of the Constitution, pre-17th amendment), and the federal government's executive also called the President was to be chosen by the state's legislatures. That all of the states have chosen to elect their slate of electors by popular vote doesn't mean the founding fathers meant for that to be morphed into a national popular vote.

In fact, there is nothing keeping a state from changing the way it picks its electors -- except public opinion. Why do you think ties are thrown to the House of Representatives instead of a run-off?

[The Ressurrected One]

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations. It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief.
--alexander hamilton
"...against this mischief." He was speaking of the mischief of tumult and disorder, not totalitarianism.

[The Ressurrected One]

so in other words, the electoral college provides a voice for the minority? but, you are also opposing the democratic filibusters, which is in principle the same thing(protecting minority rights so the majority doesnt just trample all over). can you say, hypocrite?
Well, considering we're talking about an entire population who was never intended to decide national matters by majority versus our representative body who decides things based on a majority vote...I don't see your point.

But, thanks for changing the subject.

[The Ressurrected One]

Plus it's his precious electoral college that he is defending that grants california and new york more electoral votes combined than like 5 or 6 middle states!

and he also said somewhere "then they'd just focus on winning a few states"

they do do that!
If that were the case, Al Gore would have been President in 2000.


http://www.lockitupoffroad.com/Clubpics/fc351f4f.jpg
Yeah, right. In your daydreams.

[The Ressurrected One]

ha
Could you finish your thought...I'm not a mind reader.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Well, considering we're talking about an entire population who was never intended to decide national matters by majority versus our representative body who decides things based on a majority vote...I don't see your point.

But, thanks for changing the subject.


See, this is what i meant by thinking for myself in class. You were force fed this shit in school, but don't you just stop and think, WHY we need a small group of old rich men to decide what is good and what is not for us, when we ourselves can vote and tally those votes and decide what is good and not?

It seems to me like the electoral college is mainly just a built-in anti-civil war device. If everyone in north usa totally voted against bush, yet everyone in south usa voted for, then bush won, i can see north usa getting really pissed and starting shit, or vice versa.

Electoral college is good in that respect.

But, like pimpo said, its not about hometown prejudices any more. All the information we need to know is right at our fingertips to make an educated, mature decision of who we think the president should be. What value is there to voting so a small group of old men can decide what we meant for our votes or what they THINK we meant by the voting results?

I just can't understand how the true voice of america does not decide the vote, and how this is worse than an indirect voice of america

(unless we're just anti-Dens of Liberalism, in which case you have every right to be anti-vote)

[Cant_Be_Faded]

aint nobody here think we aint right but us

i mean

[jalbre6]

Yoni/TRO,

You posted once that you thought Bush was deserving of a spot on Mount Rushmore.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9924&highlight=rushmore

Do you still feel that way, and why/why not? Thanks.

[The Ressurrected One]

See, this is what i meant by thinking for myself in class. You were force fed this shit in school, but don't you just stop and think, WHY we need a small group of old rich men to decide what is good and what is not for us, when we ourselves can vote and tally those votes and decide what is good and not?
Who says it has to be "old rich men." All politics are local. If we were selecting our federal government the way the founders had intended, the person picking your presidental elector and your U.S. Senator would come from your state representive district...Not your U.S. Congressman but your State Representative.

It seems to me like the electoral college is mainly just a built-in anti-civil war device. If everyone in north usa totally voted against bush, yet everyone in south usa voted for, then bush won, i can see north usa getting really pissed and starting shit, or vice versa.
Okay, no.


Electoral college is good in that respect.
The Electoral College is good in all respects.


But, like pimpo said, its not about hometown prejudices any more. All the information we need to know is right at our fingertips to make an educated, mature decision of who we think the president should be. What value is there to voting so a small group of old men can decide what we meant for our votes or what they THINK we meant by the voting results?
That's not the point. What part of "you were never intended to directly elect the president" don't you understand. He is an executive "hired" to run the federal government on behalf of the States.


I just can't understand how the true voice of america does not decide the vote, and how this is worse than an indirect voice of america
You do decide. Everytime you vote in a State District election or a U.S. Congressional Election (and now, sadly, a U.S. Senatorial election) you do decide.

The only thing you've lost, as a people, is that your home State no longer has a voice in the federal government.


(unless we're just anti-Dens of Liberalism, in which case you have every right to be anti-vote)
That's right...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

rofl rofl!!!!

http://www.freesighosting.com/uploads/179fcea534.jpg

[The Ressurrected One]

Yoni/TRO,

You posted once that you thought Bush was deserving of a spot on Mount Rushmore.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9924&highlight=rushmore

Do you still feel that way, and why/why not? Thanks.
That's the way Yonivore felt and, yes, I agree.

I think history will judge President Bush as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, President of the last century.

In spite of his detractors, he's waged two successful wars, brought an impending recession under control, brought unemployment to 30 year lows all while a liberal press beat him up at every turn.

Yep, I think he'll end up there -- or at least should end up there -- in time.

[The Ressurrected One]

rofl rofl!!!!

http://www.freesighosting.com/uploads/179fcea534.jpg
You seem fond of saying that. I'm happy for you.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so we were never meant to go against any amendments ressurected one?

we are forever locked in place by an amendment that was made in times that make today look like a sci fi movie?

and it is so like you to focus on the "rich white men" part of my opening sentence instead of what i was really trying to say

pwn3t

[Cant_Be_Faded]

because you seriously sound like Joe freaking Scarborough over here

you focus on side comments and never truely attack the main point of others arguments

[jalbre6]

That's the way Yonivore felt and, yes, I agree.

I think history will judge President Bush as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, President of the last century.

In spite of his detractors, he's waged two successful wars, brought an impending recession under control, brought unemployment to 30 year lows all while a liberal press beat him up at every turn.

Yep, I think he'll end up there -- or at least should end up there -- in time.

I don't agree with you much (if ever), but goddamn, you're consistent. And literate to boot. I admire that.

[jalbre6]

i still don't see how the press is 'liberal'

The definition of liberal has morphed from "those favoring reform and progress and tolerance of change" to "those that aren't conservatives and leave burning piles of dog poop on the White House doorstep".

[The Ressurrected One]

i never said the founding fathers intended for their to be a popular vote to elect the president.
the writers of the constitution never dreamed of being able to disseminate information so quickly, efficiently, and broadly.
They never alluded to the electoral college being due to the slow dissemination of information. There is a wealth of information, from the period, that specifically points to the electoral college being a mechanism to thwart disproportionate representation by any of the colonies.

the electoral college was, in part, designed to protect the people from their own ignorance. this ignorance, they thought, would cause 'tumult and disorder' in the election of the president. they feared that an exceptionally engaging president would be able to take adavantage of ignorant voters and grab wholly their support.
I don't buy the concept but, if true, since this nation is now equally polarized and since we have at least one ethnic/cultural group throwing better than 90% of their vote to one party (in defiance of most statistical logic) -- tells me the population is still ignorant an in need of similar protections from themselves.

I don't know, you decide.

and there's nothing in the constitution that says it couldn't be changed the writers obviously didn't think so, as soon as they finished the constitution, they made 10 amendments
Only because the colonies wouldn't have ratified if they hadn't added those 10. Arguably, the remainder of the amendments were either unnecessary or unwarranted -- some, such as the 16th and 17th, may have been fraudulently ratified. But, those are other discussions.

do i think that making/repealing/revising an amendment to replace the electoral college with a popular vote will happen? probably not in my lifetime..but it is possible.
Well, it shouldn't...but, since the 17th amendment was added, there's a possibility.

and it's definitely not un-american to want a change in the constitution.
As long as the change is needed.

i think that if the writers of the constitution were aware of how informed the contemporary american public Could be, then they would not oppose a popular vote for the president.
Again, we're highly polarized...so, obviously about half of us aren't that well informed.

[The Ressurrected One]

i still don't see how the press is 'liberal'
I'm shocked! Start a thread and we'll discuss.

[mookie2001]

if GWB's name was John Harper do you think he would have even been considered a canidate for governer?
and you CANNOT say that bush didnt benefit from September 11th, thats the ONLY thing he ran on in 2004

[The Ressurrected One]

if GWB's name was John Harper do you think he would have even been considered a canidate for governer?
If John Harper had the record of business success and political savvy of GWB, yeah, he would have been considered.

and you CANNOT say that bush didnt benefit from September 11th, thats the ONLY thing he ran on in 2004
President Bush benefitted from his response to the September 11th attacks. Just as Franklin Delano Roosevelt benefitted from his response to the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.

If President Bush had fumbled the national response to September 11th, he would have lost in 2004. It's that simple. So, to respond, no September 11 didn't help Bush -- but how he responded did.

[The Ressurrected One]

business success...lol
Yep, he profitted handsomely from every venture in which he became involved. You've done better, I suppose?

I'm always amazed at those who would mock people that have far exceeded their own business accomplishments.

[The Ressurrected One]

lol
bush's business dealings are characteristically Shady
I think that's a characteristically liberal characterization. Give me some proof.

and his 'success' with the rangers was based on how they sucked so hard that someone bought it off them, for a handsome profit, of course
Seems smart to me. If you can buy low and sells high, that's the name of the game. Isn't it?

[mookie2001]

1. he had a pisspoor business record, no he wouldnt have coming close to running or even close to winning, if you dont believe that, then you really would give sean hannity a blowjob
2. he benefited from september 11th. period. he handled it by promising to catch OBL and then he did not. then he took away AMERICANS constitutional rights and has not given them back. then he handled it by invading another country for the wrong reason, then changing the reason, then changing the reason again, way to respond

but if you like unfulfilled promises, losing your constitutional rights and war under false pretenses and still voted for him, like you said most voters did, then you by voting him rewarded him for being president on september 11th 2001 by electing him to 4 more years

[jalbre6]

lol
bush's business dealings are characteristically Shady

and his 'success' with the rangers was based on how they sucked so hard that someone bought it off them, for a handsome profit, of course

Bush made a really cunning business move when purchasing the Rangers, whos value skyrocketed once he and the other owners made the city of Arlington build them a new park. They threatened to move the team first to Irving and then out of the area completely to either Tampa or Washington. The city of Arlington's mayor was an old Republican judge with a lot of money, and he successfully passed a sales tax increase off on the citizens of Arlington.

Bush paid in around $600,000 (most coming from a family loan) and sold out for around $14 million. His smartest move was selling before the team paid the city $7.5 million in their share of the stadium deal.

[The Ressurrected One]

That's one of the biggest problems with the arguments against George W. Bush...

...is that the fundamental article of faith, that he is a bad President, requires that he be both dumb and cunning.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i never agreed to him being cunning

thats what Dick Cheney's are for

[jalbre6]

That's one of the biggest problems with the arguments against George W. Bush...

...is that the fundamental article of faith, that he is a bad President, requires that he be both dumb and cunning.

I don't like him and I have my own reasons, which we have discussed at length before. But that move with the Rangers, whether is was his idea or not, was pure genius. Same with getting out of Arbusto and Spectrum with his shirt still on his back in the 80's.

The one thing I'll give the guy is that he knows what he can and can't do. He learned from the oil business that he's much better as a public figurehead spokesman type than an actual manager. People were suggesting almost as soon as he took over as General Partner of the Rangers, he should run for governor. He was THAT good. But he wanted to be baseball commissioner. Then when that job was taken by someone else, he fell back on the governor idea, which he wasn't very keen on. Remember, he got his ass kicked in 1978 running for the House from Midland.

Apparently that's worked out for him. :lol

[ClintSquint]

As a man I respect George W. Bush.
He's a straight shooter although his aim is not very good.
He stands by his convictions which sometimes can be his downfall.

I just don't agree with his fiscal policy and not having a better plan for post war Iraq.

But I consider him a good hombre and none of the networks should have cut away from his speech.

[BronxCowboy]

Well let's all cry because we were deprived of a few minutes of propaganda.

[The Ressurrected One]

gwb=tro
lol
The highest compliment I could have ever expected in this forum. Thank you.

[Gatita]

That is sad.