Ludden: Spurs sub in Barry and Mohammed

[Kori Ellis]

Spurs sub in Barry and Mohammed
Web Posted: 04/29/2005 12:00 AM CDT

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA042905.1D.BKNspurs.adv.223200244.html

He had grown accustomed to hearing Spurs public-address announcer Stan Kelly call his name when the lights went dark, to walking out to center court for the opening tip.

That's the way it had gone this season: If he was healthy enough to play, he started.

Then came Wednesday, and somebody walked out in his place. It was strange coming off the bench, he said later, but no big deal. He did his job as he usually does.

"If that's what needs to be done in this situation," Rasho Nesterovic said, "then I will do it."

Manu Ginobili isn't the only new face on the Spurs' bench these days. After not making a single lineup change the first two months, the team hopes to improvise its way through the opening round of the playoffs.

The Spurs evened the best-of-seven series against Denver at a game apiece Wednesday when coach Gregg Popovich made his most radical adjustment by starting Brent Barry in place of Ginobili. He made the move, in large part, to provide some punch to the team's bench.

"That's something we've been kind of looking for all year," Barry said. "When you bring Beno (Udrih) off the bench and sometimes me, we're not really offensive players in the sense that we attack and make things happen with the basketball the way Manu does. Nobody does it the way Manu does."

Popovich wouldn't say how long he would continue to bring Ginobili off the bench. The team gave up trying to develop any continuity a long time ago.

The Spurs began the season touting the "corporate knowledge" of their five starters: Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Bruce Bowen, Ginobili and Nesterovic. The lineup remained intact for all but two of the first 42 games. The team didn't even make its first transaction until Jan. 23 when Nesterovic went on the injured list with a sprained left ankle.

The Spurs' good fortune ended about the same time. Duncan sprained his right ankle three times and ended up missing 16 games. Ginobili sat out five games after straining his groin. Nesterovic sprained his left ankle again and went back on the injured list.

In between, the Spurs traded Malik Rose for Nazr Mohammed. Devin Brown hurt his back. Glenn Robinson was signed.

Since March 8, the Spurs have had their opening-night starting lineup intact for only one game. Even then, the group lasted less than two minutes together before Duncan severely sprained his right ankle.

"Probably not having a steady lineup the last 20-30 games made (Wednesday's switch) easier," Ginobili said.

Had Brown been healthy and playing as energetically as he did the first three weeks of March, the Spurs probably would not have had reason to make the move. Brown and Nesterovic both returned Wednesday, but Popovich said he has no plans to make them part of the "immediate rotation."

Before Wednesday, Nesterovic hadn't come off the bench in more than four years.

"I'm not used to it, but Nazr is playing great," he said. "I just want to help continue the job (the starters) are doing."

Ginobili's return to the bench was more of a surprise yet logical. In addition to giving the bench some energy, the switch allowed Barry to get better shots — and more of them — while playing with Duncan.

Ginobili and Parker generate much of their scoring off penetration, so the ball sometimes doesn't move as freely around the perimeter. With Barry on the floor Wednesday, the Spurs were able to better take advantage when Duncan was double-teamed.

In the eight games he started in the regular season, Barry shot 48.6 percent compared to 41 percent in the 73 games he came off the bench.

"We remember what happened last year against the Lakers when no one could make shots," Parker said. "That's why we brought Brent here."

The move, in theory, also could help Ginobili avoid early foul trouble and keep him fresher for the fourth quarter. Because Ginobili tweaked his left ankle — he should be fine to play Saturday, Popovich said — and the game was already under control, he played only 18 minutes Wednesday.

"I was thinking before the game if I had to do anything different (coming off the bench)," Ginobili said. "But I can't play any different. I am who I am. I play that way. That's the way I help the team."

The lineup change appeared to work well Wednesday when Barry and Ginobili totaled 33 points while making 9 of 14 shots, including 6 of 7 3-point attempts. Denver coach George Karl said Thursday he's contemplating making his own switch: replacing starter DerMarr Johnson with Greg Buckner, a more physical guard, is an option.

Moving Ginobili to the bench isn't without risk. On the game's opening possession, Johnson drove by Barry and through the lane for a layup. After Johnson made two 3-pointers to start the second half, Popovich immediately replaced Barry with Ginobili — about three minutes earlier than he subbed him in the first quarter.

The Spurs also can't count on making 10 of 18 3-pointers in Denver, even if, as was the case Wednesday, many are open. And Ginobili's frenetic pace, as valuable as it is in reserve, made him an All-Star as a starter.

Like most players, Ginobili probably would prefer to start. But winning, he said, is the only reason he needs to continue his reserve role.

And if this season has taught Ginobili and his teammates anything, it's how to adapt.

[Solid D]

Arguably the best player on the Bulls comes off the bench.

http://www.nba.com/media/act_ben_gordon.jpg

[Solid D]

"He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."

http://www.nba.com/media/history/kevin_mchale_200.jpg
2-Time Sixth Man of the Year Award Winner

"Making him the sixth man and selling him on it was important," said Bill Fitch, Boston's coach during McHale's first three seasons. "You've got to have those bench points and have them every night. Kevin got them." McHale quickly learned to appreciate the role, and he thrived in it.

McHale was the best sixth man of his generation at a time when key reserves were becoming fashionable. His scoring improved in each of his first six seasons, beginning with an average of 10.0 points per game as a rookie in 1980-81. He also chalked up 4.4 rebounds and 1.84 blocks per game that year and was named to the NBA All-Rookie Team. Although still playing limited minutes, McHale proved to be a key contributor to a Celtics team that won the 1981 NBA Championship.

McHale improved his output in each of the next two seasons, but the Celtics failed to return to the NBA Finals. After the team replaced Coach Bill Fitch with K. C. Jones, McHale and the Celtics enjoyed a magical campaign in 1983-84. Playing 31.4 minutes per game off the bench, McHale averaged 18.4 ppg and 7.4 rpg, shot .556 from the floor and won the NBA Sixth Man Award. He also made the first of his seven All-Star appearances. Boston won the Atlantic Division with a 62-20 record, then took the NBA Championship after a grueling seven-game battle with the Los Angeles Lakers in the Finals.

[ChumpDumper]

If the Argentinian content knew what an honor it was to be mentioned in the same breath as McHale and Havlicek, they might unclench just a little.

[whottt]

You know why the Argies are upset about it this season?

Because last season a bunch of idiots started saying Hedo>Manu and wanted to fuck Manu for his selflessness...

They are worried about clowns who don't know the game reading this move the wrong way...not just the clowns on this forum...but those in the national arena as well...

EG: Kenyon Martin thinking Manu must have done something wrong to be moved to the bench....in his interview.

They are proud of the greatest basketball player to come out of their country and don't want his legacy being tarnished by those too stupid to understand the move.

[ChumpDumper]

I was waiting for that.

Fuck you and your lack of faith.

And fuck anyone who listens to KMart opine about Manu.

[ChumpDumper]

You also said Manu wouldn't put up with being benched again.

Are you standing by that?

[Solid D]

Can't we all just get along and turn this into another thread about Barry > "x"...
or "x" > Pop?

[whottt]

I was waiting for that.

Fuck you and your lack of faith.

And fuck anyone who listens to KMart opine about Manu.


It happens...it happened last season.

It happened to Drob too...

Drob stepped back in a selfless manuever and took the thankless defensive gruntwork... and now everyone, including many Spursfans, act like he was a punk ass bitch that had to be carried out of the lottery by 3rd string scrubs....He'll never be considered among the elite C because of his selflessness, even though he was easily as capable of dominating the injured and beat up Knicks frontline in that series.


Never underestimate the destructive power of stupid people in large numbers...

[whottt]

You also said Manu wouldn't put up with being benched again.

Are you standing by that?

Link?

I said it wouldn't be the solution...

It hasn't been any other time this season...

Those starter bench stats are misleading...Barry's best games(I mean games against tough opponents) have come off the bench this season.

It does give us more energy off the bench...but if you look Manu the back up PG last night...why couldn't do they do that with Barry?

[T Park]

and now everyone, including many Spursfans, act like he was a punk ass bitch that had to be carried out of the lottery by 3rd string scrubs....He'll never be considered among the elite C because of his selflessness, even though he was easily as capable of dominating the injured and beat up Knicks frontline in that series.


You must be snorting something.

Ive never heard anyone say that about Robinson.

[Kori Ellis]

BTW, I think Barry's D might be a tad bit better now that hell know what to do.

DerMarr made him look like a fool in Game 2. He needs to step up in that regard. Not play incredibly D or anything, but at least contest the shot and don't matador.

[T Park]

you look Manu the back up PG

so your telling me Udrih was the SG???

give me a break.


Once again, look at the numbers

Barry starting 48%

off the bench 41%.


Goodnight.

[timvp]

but if you look Manu the back up PG last night

Ah ah. That's the problem.

You weren't watching the same game. In the game the rest of us watched, Beno Udrih was the backup PG.






P.S.

David Robinson is still ashamed of you and how you've deserted the franchise in a way your hero never would.

[T Park]

DerMarr made him look like a fool in Game 2. He needs to step up in that regard. Not play incredibly D or anything, but at least contest the shot and don't matador

Thats what I meant, I think hell contest a shot.


But, now your gonna make WHottt go on a 1 hour tirade on how he doesn't need to play D he should be exempt from that area.

[whottt]

Thos two plays where Pop got mad at Barry he was helping Bowen double team Carmelo...he had to run 12 feet to get back to his man...that's not asking Barry to be a passable defender...that's asking him to be Michael Cooper...and why are we doubling Melo with a 25 point lead anyway?

[T Park]

You weren't watching the same game. In the game the rest of us watched, Beno Udrih was the backup PG.

Thank you.

[T Park]

Thos two plays where Pop got mad at Barry he was helping Bowen double team Carmelo...he had to run 12 feet to get back to his man...that's not asking Barry to be a passable defender...that's asking him to be Michael Cooper...and why are we doubling Melo with a 25 point lead anyway?

opening play of the game dumbass. Demarr went at him and he folded like a cheap suit. But I digress, I think hell come out better saturday night.

Plus, Barry was never instructed to double Carmello, HENCE the reason he was benched.

shit.

[timvp]

Thos two plays where Pop got mad at Barry he was helping Bowen double team Carmelo...he had to run 12 feet to get back to his man...that's not asking Barry to be a passable defender...that's asking him to be Michael Cooper...and why are we doubling Melo with a 25 point lead anyway?

It was because he wasn't supposed to be doubling, genius.

[T Park]

lmfao.

TIMVP STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!


Damn, me and TIMVP on the same page.


Im definately having a goddamn good night. :smokin

[whottt]

Ah ah. That's the problem.

You weren't watching the same game. In the game the rest of us watched, Beno Udrih was the backup PG.


Yeah...the game you were watching must have been one where Barry also wasn't having to double team on the weakside as well as defend his own man
on the strongside...and then gets ripped for bad D.






P.S.

David Robinson is still ashamed of you and how you've deserted the franchise in a way your hero never would.


Exactly how did I desert the franchise? I am still here aren't I?

[timvp]

Again, he wasn't supposed to double. Don't you know the Spurs' defensive principles?

[ChumpDumper]

Link?
What I said was that he didn't like it and wouldn't do it againhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=214571&highlight=manu+bench#post214571

[whottt]

It was because he wasn't supposed to be doubling, genius.

I hope that's what it is...because if it isn't then Pop just hates Barry...

So let's say you are right...even though I don't think that's what happened...

Then that means Barry is overplaying on D...hardly a reason to rip him...

Seems to me Pop could have just asked him to stop doubling Melo after the first time, without being a dick about it...

You sure he wasn't supposed to be doubling?

[timvp]

He wasn't supposed to be doubling. You are never even supposed to sag if you are coming off a player in the corner. He f'ed up twice in a row. What did you want Pop to do?

Give him even more PT?

[T Park]

Then that means Barry is overplaying on D...hardly a reason to rip him...

Uh yes, BECAUSE A GOOD SHOOTER IS LEFT OPEN!!!!

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?!??!



Seems to me Pop could have just asked him to stop doubling Melo without being a dick about it

Oh christ grow up, hes a man not a kid, stop worrying about his goddamn self esteem, hes already been given a starting spot to do that, you dont need to keep holding his dick for him.

Probobly the reason he was benched was, Pop said "no need to double stay with Demarr" then goes and doubles again.


You sure he wasn't supposed to be doubling?

Alot of the Spurs defensive scheme is to NOT double, come on.

[whottt]

Again, he wasn't supposed to double. Don't you know the Spurs' defensive principles?


The Spurs double...they don't like to do it but they will do it.

I can't say with certainty that he wasn't being asked to do it, why the fuck was he doing it then? He hasn't done it at any other time this season...

You guys have ripped him all season for giving up on D...that's not what happened last night.

[T Park]

What did you want Pop to do?


run 20 straight plays for him.

[whottt]

Wow so let me get this straight...

The reason you guys have been ripping Barry's D all season is because he overplays on D...

Got it...sorry I misunderstood the criticisms you have been making the entire season.

[T Park]

You guys have ripped him all season for giving up on D...that's not what happened last night.

You obviously didn't see the Spurs first bucket either.

[whottt]

Give him even more PT?


No bench him...because it's better to choke.

[T Park]

No the reason is because he wont play the defensive system.

When he does, and puts his hands in the passing lanes he does fine.

When he starts thinking for himself and goes and helps Bruce Bowen on D, where he didn't need to cause Bowen OWNED Anthony all night, then he gets burned and ripped up.

[T Park]

Can't even discuss it.

Can't even...

Unreal.

[Solid D]

Whottt, before I hit the hay...do you really think Brent Barry is a good defender? Look me in the eyes and say it.

[T Park]

he will say no, but that is ok.

Its ok if Barry's man will score 30.

Barry will score the same amount, so there is no need for defensive effort.

[whottt]

No I don't think he's a good defender get freaking real...

But I know for a fact he's much improved on D since Duncan went out with injury.

I think he was supposed to be double teaming...because of the way Pop reacted to it.


In any case...I now find myself arguing with the group that wants Barry starting...am I the only one that gets the irony?

[whottt]

he will say no, but that is ok.

Its ok if Barry's man will score 30.

Barry will score the same amount, so there is no need for defensive effort.

Show me one time Barry's man has scored 30 or STFU.

[T Park]

I think he was supposed to be double teaming...because of the way Pop reacted to it.

so by your logic.

He was doing something he was told to do, so he got benched.


EH!??!??!?!?!?

[T Park]

It is called an example Genius.

[whottt]

so by your logic.

He was doing something he was told to do, so he got benched.


EH!??!??!?!?!?


I think Pop wanted the double team because Melo got hot late in game 1, and because I've only been a Spurfan for about 25 years and all of Pop's career and I know how he reacts.

But let's just say you guys are right, for the sake of argument, we know full well Barry's defense is the worst aspect of the game and the reason Pop would rather lose via choke than win...then it's not because of a lack of effort on D, it's because of a misunderstanding the weakest aspect of his game...I don't think that's a good reason to be a dick...especially when all you gotta do is fucking tell him to correct it...

But no go ahead an bench him for making a misguided effort....we'll teach that punk ass bitch a lesson or lose a title trying.

[T Park]

Pop would rather lose via choke than win

yeah, Pop would rather lose.

God your a fucking moron.



we'll teach that punk ass bitch a lesson or lose a title trying.

blah blah blah blah :rolleyes

[Tek_XX]

Wow...if Whotts brillant theory is true, that supposed double team was pretty sorry, looked like Barry was trying to sneak up and steal the ball. Anthony had plenty of time to thow the ball to his man for a wide open three.

[timvp]

I miss Whottt. Whoever has stolen his password is doing a bad imitation. I don't even know how to respond to his posts anymore.

[ChumpDumper]

I've only been a Spurfan for about 25 years and all of Pop's career and I know how he reacts.I guess we could take a final tally of Barry's minutes per game since December 17 then.

[Kori Ellis]

Whottt, he wasn't supposed to double -- that was pretty clear. And I'm not sure why he was; he seemed a bit confused. I don't really care much about Barry's D other than he needs to just play within the defensive system. Last night, he obviously made some mistakes in that regard. But in general, he has improved somewhat throughout the season defensively.

Glenn Robinson has never played D in his life either, but he hangs in on D when he's in the game and seems to know what he's supposed to do. I expect the same and not much more from Barry.

[whottt]

Whatever...at least I am not clowning myself with umpteen contradictions by talking about what a great move it was to start him and then talking about what a fuckup he is...

Contradiction much?

Takes balls to rip him for the first play of them game and then talk about what a brilliant move it was to start him...all in the same thread.

And furthermore...

I find it amazing how folks wander in a state of confusion about solutions to the Spurs problems...

I hear now...

1.Barry is playing with Duncan to get him more open looks, because he evidently can't hit without Duncan on the court.

This is a load of crap...Barry has played his entire career without Tim Duncan and he's shot fairly well.

#2.It helps his confidence.

This is also crap. The only confidence issues Barry has had this season are Pop induced....coincidentally, Horry, Rose, Devin and Beno have all had the same issues. I know....Horry has always struggled with his confidence too.

People who lack confidence don't play their best stretch of the season after Duncan goes out.

Last night was a case of Barry being called out and focused on and responding to the challenge...it wasn't an act of brilliance as we'll find out in Denver when Parker and the Spurs once again forget about Barry.

If there's one criticism you can make of Barry is that he tries to be too much of a team player and doesn't call for the ball enough...

And I've never seen a guy get so ripped for good qualities as Brent Barry has on this team...I didn't even like the signing at first but he has won me over a fan this season with the class way he has dealt with the pressures that come with his role on this team.

And those that compare him to Hedo do him a grave disservice.

[whottt]

I guess we could take a final tally of Barry's minutes per game since December 17 then.

Instead of tallying your ability to be as offensively stupid as Pop...why don't we tally the number of times you get off the subject and call me a liar when you are getting punked in an argument.....

[ChumpDumper]

call me a liarEvery time you lie.

Which is pretty much every time you get punked.

That was easy.

[T Park]

talk about a beach ball right over the heart of the plate.


I dont think even I defend Rasho this much.

[Gerryatrics]

It's amazing the lengths some Spurs fans will go to rip Brent Barry. And what I don't understand is why people are defending yanking Barry when Denver was playing zone and the Spurs ran into a wall. Pop took out a three-point shooter and great passer (AKA: zone buster), the Spurs looked lost and the Nuggets came alive and started chipping away at the lead. Of course the Spurs had the 30ish point lead so it wasn't a huge threat, and Pop actually adjusted in a timely manner, but it still wasn't the most effective move of the night.

Barry isn't the NBA's greatest defender, I think we all get it at this point. So why don't we concentrate on the things he does bring to the table instead of going out of the way to find whatever little thing we can to start bagging on him for once. He had a solid game and you guys still try to tear him apart, it's just sad at this point.

[smeagol]

Like most players, Ginobili probably would prefer to start. But winning, he said, is the only reason he needs to continue his reserve role.
I've repeated this a million times. But people keep bringing up McHale, and what an honor it is to be a 6th man.

For the millionth time, if Manu coming of the bench helps the Spurs win the championship, I'm all for it (provided that he gets 30 mpg + he finishes the games).

But please, stop with the fucking BS that its the same to start or to come of the bench. I'm amazed how some of the most intelligent posters keep bringing this up. It is not.

The best players start. That's how it's supposed to be. If Barry didn't need pampering, or if the Spurs bench was not sucking as it has been lately, Manu would be starting because he is the second best player in this team.

Manu has said in the media and in his website he is OK with coming of the bench. But as Johnny Ludden states in his article, he probably would prefer to start.

That is the fucking bottom line.

Please stop bringing up KM and all the other great six men. Its getting old.

[ChumpDumper]

Please stop bringing up KM and all the other great six men.Why do you not like the comparison? Did you not see McHale in his prime? Ever heard of Hondo?

We'll quit bringing that up if others stop saying the only reason he should start is some unwritten rule saying he should. Agreed?

[smeagol]

We'll quit bringing that up if others stop saying the only reason he should start is some unwritten rule saying he should. Agreed?
No I don't agree.

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.

I don't see TD, KG, Kobe, TMac, Nash, Snaq, AI, Dirk, Marion, King James, Melo, Pierce, Allen, Yao, Brand, Big Ben, Arenas, etc, etc, etc coming of the bench.

There is no unwritten rule Manu should start always, the same as there is no unwritten rule the players I just mentioned should start always. But they do. And if they are told they are going to be benched because John Doe needs more confidence, most of them would bitch. (remeber AI?).

I've asked this before. Is the 6 MOY award as prestigious as the MVP award?

Tell me, without googleing it, the last 10 6 MOY. Now tell me the las 10 MVPs.

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.I don't. But one is not more valuable than another by definition.
There is no unwritten rule Manu should start always, the same as there is no unwritten rule the players I just mentioned should start always. But they do. And if they are told they are going to be benched because John Doe needs more confidence, most of them would bitch. (remeber AI?).I don't get why Manunites are so quick to equate Manu with a pouty whiner like AI. This is the same thinking that led them to the conclusion that Manu would leave over the summer. It was faulty thinking then and it's faulty thinking now. There should be some kind of penance for thinking so little of a demigod.
I've asked this before. Is the 6 MOY award as prestigious as the MVP award?Is the regular season MVP award as prestigious as the NBA Championship? Which would you say Manu would rather have?

Manu > team

It's ok to believe that--you have already admitted it--just don't act like you don't.

[ducks]

Had Brown been healthy and playing as energetically as he did the first three weeks of March, the Spurs probably would not have had reason to make the move. Brown and Nesterovic both returned Wednesday, but Popovich said he has no plans to make them part of the "immediate rotation."

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.
What am I sacrificing? Do you know what's the difference? That I don't play the first 6 minutes, when everybody's cold and not doing much, and then the first 5 minutes of the second half. Where's the problem? What harm is being done to me? The only one risking something is Pop for if we lose or I suck as a sub or Barry as a starter, Pop is the one who's gonna get killed. What is the high price I may have to pay? If you look at it from a selfish point of view, I'm in a win-win situation.Rough translation from Manu's website. Take it up with him.

[whottt]

Manu > team

It's ok to believe that--you have already admitted it--just don't act like you don't.


He didn't say that you twisting bitch. Learn to read.

[ChumpDumper]

As for what my fellow countrymen are thinking or feeling regarding the move, I don't think it has to do with pride. It proly has to do with liking the player more than the team.If it's not his viewpoint, he hasn't denied it. He's free to do so -- I'll ask him point blank.

Smeagol, do you like Manu more than the Spurs and does this affect your opinion about his coming off the bench?

[T Park]

liking the player more than the team

Uh that tells me

Manu > Team.

[whottt]

smeagol...you are a good open minded person, like myself, I've seen this characteristic in you no matter how heated the argument...don't waste your credibility on the hemmorhoid known as Chump.

Does a rock admit when it is wrong? Well neither will Chump. Same type of thing there...

Notice how he keeps acting like being critical of this move means you don't want to win a title and his endorsement of it means he does? Yet the only evidence we have suggests this move won't win a title...last season.


Welcome to my world...where people give themselves props for waiving Heal and Mercer and other choking manuevers...yet never seem to remember that we choked by having a bunch of tentative choking guards that they wanted....and didn't win a title.

Next time someone posts the link to the waive Mercer or Heal threads be sure to read them...you'll see me nailing the eventual choke and reasons for it to a T, in October! What you won't see is any of them ever admitting I was right.

The only thing you'll see Chump doing in those threads is talking about how we should use Mercer at PG :rofl

So don't waste your openmindedness on those that aren't worth it...I understand you guys point on Manu...and you're right to be protective of Manu...he carries the basketball legacy of an entire country, his coming off the bench does not make us a title contender if we aren't one with him starting...and this years props for his unselfishness will last for 1 season and if it continues beyond this season(it won't so don't worry) after that people will be saying Barry>Manu, even in the media....just like they did with Hedo last season...For proof of this I give you Chumpdumper...remember that he did just that.

All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.


Starting Barry is a lazy attempt at correcting the solution, and it won't be a permanent one..in fact I doubt it will work tonight. We had all regular season to get more out of Barry, the guy who has performed the best in the clutch all season long...and the Spurs just refused to do so...they'd rather Beno be thrown into the fire...

[T Park]

All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.

Udrih seemed to play alright in game 2 bitch.


Jesus.


Only you would bag and rag on a fellow spur just for your bitch's benefit.

Christ.

[whottt]

Smeagol...I give you the guy who liked Hedo more than Jack:


Udrih seemed to play alright in game 2 bitch.

We had an 11 point lead the first time he came into the game. I give him credit...he didn't blow it like he did the 9 point lead in game 1...but I still don't trust rookies until they have given me reason to do so...and Beno hasn't given me reason to do so...




Jesus.


Only you would bag and rag on a fellow spur just for your bitch's benefit.

Christ.


Please shut the fuck up...you rag on players worse than anyone...except Rasho.

[boutons]

t_pork is constanly on the rag and won't take his Midol

[ChumpDumper]

Notice how he keeps acting like being critical of this move means you don't want to win a title and his endorsement of it means he does?Bullshit. I'm asking why everyone is so pissed about it and what they would do differently. The answers I've gotten have had nothing to do with the games that have been played.
Yet the only evidence we have suggests this move won't win a title...last season.Only if you think Barry = Hedo. Don't act like you think that you hypocrite. I can link your tirade against that.
For proof of this I give you Chumpdumper...remember that he did just that.I did not and you know it. Lie and get called on it.
All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.Oversimplify much?

Yes.

That's all you do.

Manu doesn't need anyone's protection and he isn't the whiny bitch you have portrayed him to be.

Mercer = championship

It was a lock. I see the error of my ways.

[ChumpDumper]

Let smeagol speak for himself.

We don't need to be distracted by Heal+Mercer=multiple rings.

Stay on point and say why starting Barry is a bad idea or STFU.

[whottt]

Bullshit. I'm asking why everyone is so pissed about it and what they would do differently. The answers I've gotten have had nothing to do with the games that have been played.

Um, how about that it didn't work last season...



Only if you think Barry = Hedo.

I don't think Barry=Hedo...the Spurs evidently to do though, since they are trying the same fucking thing with Barry.

You guys act like Barry has torn it up when he's started...he's had some good statistical games as a starter...but his best games(and our biggest wins of the season) have come with him off the bench, when Pop had no alternative but to use him extensively.






Manu doesn't need anyone's protection and he isn't the whiny bitch you have portrayed him to be.

What a cunt you are to use his unselfishness in trying to portray him as some guy who lusts to come off the bench.




Mercer = championship

It was a lock. I see the error of my ways.

Idiot...you wanted him playing PG....I just wanted him as a specialist.

And...Kentucky...

Mercer wouldn't have choked, neither would Heal..Mercer wouldn't have struggled to reach a ball 2 inches to his right...Mercer would have been all over that shit and jacked it up before anyone knew what happened, and looking at the shots he took in close games last season...he would have made it....just because he's a ball hog doesn't mean he's a choker...and that's a distinction you were never able to make. He's not a choker.

[ChumpDumper]

No, you think the result will be the same, so you obviously do think Barry=Hedo.

Compare Barry's production in games one and two. Notice any difference?



I never did. I have quotes from Manu saying that his fans are overreacting.


LMFAO. Back when you were spouting bullshit about Nazr's always being a loser, you conveniently left out that same school. At least you are consistently inconsistent.


Yes, the two biggest playbreakers this side of Marbury and Crawford would've brought home the trophy, no doubts whatsoever. A lock.

[Spurminator]

Regarding the Hedo comparison, Hedo responded VERY well to the move in the first few months after it was made, then faded back to mediocrity once the Playoffs had started. Perhaps Barry will have the same sort of instant success in the beginning, timed perfectly for the Playoffs.

Maybe it's a little bit superstitious, but it's no less tangible than the rest of the conjecture in this thread.

[whottt]

Edit...sorry for fucking up your post Chump...I didn't realize I still had mod powers...give me a second to fix it.

[ChumpDumper]

Regarding the Hedo comparison, Hedo responded VERY well to the move in the first few months after it was made, then faded back to mediocrity once the Playoffs had started. Perhaps Barry will have the same sort of instant success in the beginning, timed perfectly for the Playoffs.whottt believes, along with everyone else, that Barry is simply a better playoff performer than Hedo. That alone should make this year's move better than that of last year.

The only real opposition he has to this move is that he doesn't trust Beno. That's valid, but the injury situation is such that he has to be played.

[whottt]

No, you think the result will be the same, so you obviously do think Barry=Hedo.


Wrong...I think it will be even less successful than it was with Hedo. Hedo pouted like a little bitch because he wanted more shots...it was his contract year...His whole freaking motiviation was to get paid in the off season....he didn't care about winning...

For proof of this...he signed with the team with the worst record in the NBA last season...and if IIRC it was after they traded their biggest star.


But anyway...Hedo got his shots and then when we really needed him to take those shots he didn't want the pressure that went with them.


Now correct me if I am wrong...but haven't you ripped Barry all season long for not taking enough shots? That's not what Hedo did...Hedo wanted more shots, until we needed him to make them.

Barry hasn't looked for his shots enough...but he's never been afraid to take the big ones...



Compare Barry's production in games one and two. Notice any difference?

Damn if Barry's production could make that kind of a difference in Parker and Duncan it makes Pop even more of an ass for refusing to play him in the 4th in game 1.(FWIW I think he does help them, I just don't think he needs to start to do it, I think he needs PT in 4th quarters where we are choking)




I never did. I have quotes from Manu saying that his fans are overreacting.

He said the same thing last season....don't confuse being team player with a happiness at coming off the bench...you fucktard.



LMFAO. Back when you were spouting bullshit about Nazr's always being a loser, you conveniently left out that same school. At least you are consistently inconsistent.

If there's one thing I have consistently said about Nazr since listening to interviews with him it's that he's not a choker....I migth have called him a loser...and he has been in the NBA.. he does seem to be unlucky(see game 1)...still, I think we can beat the Hawks suck off of him and find the winner within eventually...I just don't think it's going to happen this season.




Yes, the two biggest playbreakers this side of Marbury and Crawford would've brought home the trophy, no doubts whatsoever. A lock.

Idiot...you were the one that wanted to see him as the primary ballhandler...not met. I wanted him as a specialist...IE put him in the game when you want a ballhog...

A ballhog can be a good thing...they have their role to play on the team..but only an idiot wants them playing PG

[ChumpDumper]

Now correct me if I am wrong...but haven't you ripped Barry all season long for not taking enough shots?For passing up wide open shots and passing to guys who were forced to take worse shots.
Wrong...I think it will be even less successful than it was with Hedo.So you go on and on about Hedo, but say nothing about how it will be worse.
Damn if Barry's production could make that kind of a difference in Parker and Duncan it makes Pop even more of an ass for refusing to play him in the 4th in game 1.I've stated my opinion on game one. Next.
don't confuse being team player with a happiness at coming off the bench.Never did. So don't lie about it. Waiting for the link.
If there's one thing I have consistently said about Nazr since listening to interviews with him it's that he's not a choker....I migth have called him a loser...and he has been in the NBA.. he does seem to be unlucky(see game 1)...still, I think we can beat the Hawks suck off of him and find the winner within eventually...I just don't think it's going to happen this season.As the point rushes over your head....
A ballhog can be a good thing...they have their role to play on the team..but only an idiot wants them playing PGThat was the only time he played worth a shit for the Spurs. there was no way in hell we were going to keep this guy for the role you wanted. Why reward a whiner? If you don't want to do it with hedo, why do it with Mercer?

[whottt]

For passing up wide open shots and passing to guys who were forced to take worse shots.

I've seen you guys make that criticism all season long of Barry and you have yet to back it up...

We shot 51% in game 1 with Barry taking 2 shots in 19 minutes...

We shot 23% without him on the court in the 4th.


So you go on and on about Hedo, but say nothing about how it will be worse.

You guys want Barry to be more of a ballhog...if you want him to be more of a ballhog...give him the fucking ball...don't put him on the court with Parker and Duncan and wait for him to get it from them. He just stepped up when called out...like he has done all season...but it's not gonna make his teamates look for him more often...he's defiitely got a problem with being passive and not wanting to make waves on the best team he's ever played on, and he's struggled to turn himself into Steve Kerr this season...but he's not the gutless pussy that's afraid to shoot you guys have portrayed him as being...when it's time to shoot the big shots and that role has fallen to him he's taken them.


That was the only time he played worth a shit for the Spurs. there was no way in hell we were going to keep this guy for the role you wanted. Why reward a whiner? If you don't want to do it with hedo, why do it with Mercer?

Because fixing what was wrong with Hedo wasn't gonna win us a title, it was serving a selfish desire totally unlrelated to winning, letting Mercer be Mercer for sequences of games, and serve his selfish desire, could have.

If I have to choose between two types of selfish players I'll take the one who wants more shots just for the sake of getting more shots over the one who wants them to get paid...

Hedo openly whined about struggling on the bench because of not getting enough shots and being worried about his contract...

Barry has never done anything of the kind.

And Barry didn't come here to be a starter or to get a bigger contract, he came here to win a championship....and he's not a worried about a contract.

He's worried about fitting in...the Spurs rep for unselfish play is widely known...Barry comes here and tries to play that way and he gets ripped for it.

[ChumpDumper]

I've seen you guys make that criticism all season long of Barry and you have yet to back it up...It happened. You have the tapes.
You guys want Barry to be more of a ballhog.He took more shots more often in game 2, so yes.
but it's not gonna make his teamates look for him more often.Except they did, and he hit those spot-up shots he supposedly sucks so bad at.
Because fixing what was wrong with Hedo wasn't gonna win us a title, but it...letting Mercer be Mercer for sequences of games could have.

Hedo openly whined about struggling on the bench because of not getting enough shots and being worried about his contract...

Barry has never done anything of the kind.Try to keep track about whom you are talking. Barry has nothing at all to do with that part. You will never convince anyone that Mercer had anything close to a positive effect on the Spurs. Not one Spur compained about letting him go. What does that tell you?

[ChumpDumper]

He's worried about fitting in...the Spurs rep for unselfish play is widely known...Barry comes here and tries to play that way and he gets ripped for it.That is a steaming pile of crap. Barry himself said he was here to hit threes, and he admitted he was doing badly in that regard. You can't ignore direct quotes from Manu and Barry, no matter how much you try.

[whottt]

And BTW...Barry isn't the only guy that's come to the Spurs and had to adjust to people wanting him to shoot more...

Robert Horry had the same problem when he first got here...I discinctly remember him getting assripped by Pop and called out by Spursfans for not taking shots...I think it's kind of stupid to expect guys that have spent a half a decade living in peace with Kobe Bryant and Gary Payton to be shot chuckers.

On top of that...Barry has averaged 10ppg in his career playing over 30 minutes per game...does that seem like Vinnie Johnson to you?

Barry's game is making plays for others, playing unselfish ball and setting up his teamates to make plays...and taking key shots when called upon...actually he's a whole hell of a lot like Robert Horry.

He's not freaking Vinny Johnson...look at his career scoring numbers per minutes played. B

[ChumpDumper]

taking key shots when called upon.Wide open threes are key.

[whottt]

That is a steaming pile of crap. Barry himself said he was here to hit threes, and he admitted he was doing badly in that regard. You can't ignore direct quotes from Manu and Barry, no matter how much you try.

I don't think anyone has ever argued that Barry has had a subpar year from 3 this season...

The argument is over the reason why and how to fix it...and whether he still helps the team when he is struggling from 3...

You guys think starting him is the solution...I don't think it is. I think it's because his role has never been that limited before and at the same time expected to be so prolific...

You guys elect to say his stuggles are because he is a gutless heartless pussy...I say it's because it's new role to him and he's probably being asked to do it more than he ever has before...in fewer minutes.

But only a total asshole still calls Barry gutless or a pussy with the way he's stepped up in the final minutes of games this season....and with Duncan and the like out.

[MadDog73]

So, what does everyone think the odds are Barry will start again tomorrow?

[ChumpDumper]

You guys think starting him is the solution...I don't think it is. I think it's because his role has never been that limited before and at the same time expected to be so prolific...Starting him expands his role and gives him more minutes, which is all you have been arguing. It also gives us Manu's energy off the bench and the chance to put him on Boykins fro a different look.

What exactly is your solution, provided you even think there is a problem?

[kskonn]

So, what does everyone think the odds are Barry will start again tomorrow?

I think they are pretty good. If he can hit a couple of outside shots it will open up the lane for duncan and for Ginobli to get in to the lane.

I would not expect to see him starting during the next series.

[whottt]

One other thing Chump...

Barry shot 357% from 3 this season...I know that's by far the worst 3 point shooting season in NBA history according to Spursfans...even though it's better than Steve Kerr...the all time leading 3 shooter shot in his first season here...and better than Jack shot...

But he made 100 threes in 280 attemps...that's second only to Bowen...and Bowen is also a 3 point champ who played nearly 11mpg more....and Bowen gets a hell of a lot more open looks than Barry does since he plays nearly all his minutes with Duncan, Manu and Parker.

You know what would have made him a 40% shooter this season? Making 12 more threes in that same 280 attempts...

So you difference in Barry struggling or doing his job...is 12 threes spread out over 81 games or .14 3PM's per game...that makes you an asshole. 12 fucking threes.

On top of that he attempted more 3's than anyone on the team this season...off the bench.

So what you have here is a guy that..

Lead the team in 2 PT PCT
Was second on the team in PPS
Lead the team in FT PCT
Lead the team in assist to TO ratio
Lead all our guards in fewest TO per 48
Lead the team in 3PA
Was second in 3PM to only Bowen

On top of that he was the best shooter in clutch situations this season on the team and played his best ball of the season with Duncan out...

So none of your criticism adds up...It's just crap. Go suck Hedo!

[whottt]

Starting him expands his role and gives him more minutes, which is all you have been arguing. It also gives us Manu's energy off the bench and the chance to put him on Boykins fro a different look.

What exactly is your solution, provided you even think there is a problem?


I am all for expanding his role...but where you and I differ is on how to do that...I don't see how being put on the court with Duncan and Parker can expand your role...get him more open looks? Perhaps, but he's still going to be camping out at 3 as much if nor more...but that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to perform better...he's not Steve Kerr...we just need to admit it...who the hell is?

He probably will get some plays run for him that were previously run for Manu, since he is in the starting line up...and I like that...I think that's a good thing...what I don't understand is why the Spurs refuse to do that for him when he is coming off the bench...they do it for Manu, just like that.

My problem with this is...Barry preforms better getting a chance to be the playmaker...it helps his whole game..and more importantly, it helps our teams offense...I don't think that's going to happen just because he is starting...

And furthermore...starting him in no way means he's gonna get PT in the 4th when we are haing a TO prone slopfest on offense and choking...and I think that's when he's got his greatest value...that's what you do to fix him...starting won't make any difference...4th quarter PT in the midst of a choke will, he calms down the offense and makes it run smartly, and IMO he's got the best court awareness on the team...he doesn't try to force stuff...and that's good for our team.

But that's just my opinion...and god knows I am higly biased against choke jobs.

[ChumpDumper]

Barry shot 357% from 3 this season...I know that's by far the worst 3 point shooting season in NBA history according to Spursfans.Not me. I wanted him to take those open shots.
So none of your criticism adds up.Your contention is that nothing has ever been wrong with Barry's game this season.

You're wrong.

Barry said so.

Take it up with him.

[ChumpDumper]

Perhaps, but he's still going to be camping out at 3 as much if nor more.Again with the "Barry can't spot up" myth. Please quit underestimating Barry.
My problem with this is...Barry preforms better getting a chance to be the playmaker...it helps his whole game..and more importantly, it helps our teams offense...I don't think that's going to happen just because he is starting...I agree with his value as a playmaker, but more overall minutes = more playmaking.
And furthermore...starting him in no way means he's gonna get PT in the 4th when we are haing a TO prone slopfest on offense and choking.If he's hitting his threes and being involved in the offense throughout the game, he is much less likely to be passed over for crunch time. Even you can understand that.

[whottt]

Let smeagol speak for himself.

We don't need to be distracted by Heal+Mercer=multiple rings.

Stay on point and say why starting Barry is a bad idea or STFU.

smeagol is my boy and he doesn't argue just for the sake of arguing...he argues when he's got a point to make and I am just giving him fair warning that you aren't exactly the guy to try and have an openminded argument with...he'll be fair with you but he's wasting his time if he expects you to concede the valid points he makes...and he does expect that since he does the same for you. I am just looking out for my boy...he doesn't need it but he's gotten my back in enough arguments(inspite of many disagreements) to where I am going to do the same for him.

[ChumpDumper]

smeagol knows who he's dealing with. I asked questions and he gives answers. I appreciate that. He has valid points but still needs to clarify his opinion in this matter.

[whottt]

Not me. I wanted him to take those open shots.Your contention is that nothing has ever been wrong with Barry's game this season.

You're wrong.

Barry said so.

Take it up with him.


Your criticism of Barry is that he passes too many open shots...

His criticism of himself is basically that he missed 12 threes this season...

His criticism in no way justifies your criticism...and the fact that he lead the team in 3pa, as a bench player, totally destroys your afraid to shoot argument...if he's afraid them Manu and Bowen must be terrified since Barry was far and away the leader in 3pa per 48 mins. He lead the team in 3PA inspute of playing 10 mins less per game than our starting shooters.



And again you try and use a players team first attitude to justify your own wanting to take a dump on them in the middle of Pop sucking....What do you want him to say? Pop is an idiot on offense?

[ChumpDumper]

His criticism in no way justifies your criticism...and the fact that he lead the team in 3pa, as a bench player, totally destroys your afraid to shoot argument.Bullshit. If you are going to sit there and say Barry never passed up an open shot this season, you are delusional and need serious help.
And again you try and use a players team first attitude to justify your own wanting to take a dump on them in the middle of Pop sucking.And again, bullshit. You simply can't concede any criticism of any player you support out of some misguided sense of justice, trying to even out those you think wronged them. You said so, so don't front that you are objective at all.

[whottt]

smeagol knows who he's dealing with. I asked questions and he gives answers. I appreciate that. He has valid points but still needs to clarify his opinion in this matter.


He sat there and said he's not against the move but you guys are full of crap when you act like there is no difference between starting and coming off the bench...he's basically right on that and he backed his reasoning up well...what don't you understand?

How many guys have won MVP's off the bench? The best players usually do start...and McHale didn't stay on the bench for his entire career now did he?

[ChumpDumper]

you guys are full of crap when you act like there is no difference between starting and coming off the bench.I asked what that difference really amounts to -- and I'm still waiting for a real answer.
How many guys have won MVP's off the bench?Are you saying Manu is an MVP now? That he would be an MVP only if he started?
The best players usually do start...and McHale didn't stay on the bench for his entire career now did he?Neither did Manu. If all the injuries didn't happen, who knows what would've happened.

The only argument I've gotten is that coming off the bench might cut into Manu's personal accolades and consequentially the vicarious pride his followers feel. No one has convinced me he's all that interested in those.

[whottt]

Bullshit. If you are going to sit there and say Barry never passed up an open shot this season, you are delusional and need serious help.

I proved he passed up fewer 3pa than any player on the team this season...he lead the team in 3pa inspite of playing 10 minutes less per game than our two starting shooters and he lead the team in 3pa per 48...

What have you backed up your argument with...other than your ass.



And again, bullshit. You simply can't concede any criticism of any player you support out of some misguided sense of justice, trying to even out those you think wronged them. You said so, so don't front that you are objective at all.

I am the most objective guy on this entire board...for me it's all about winning...if that means I have to go against homerism supporting the home town boy at the expense of winning then I will do so..if I think Shane Heal gives us a better chance at winning than Anthony Carter... I am not ashamed to admit it...If Pop does something stupid I am not going to overlook it because of the fantastic job he has done in the past and in other aspects of the team...regardless of what popular sentiment may be.

I am not going to act like the Spurs FO are perfection personified just because the Spurs are my team...

I am damn sure more objective then you...you basically toe the line for the Spurs whether it's a screw up or not...and even worse you refuse to admit it when it was an obvious screw up.

[ChumpDumper]

I proved he passed up fewer 3pa than any player on the team this season.No you didn't. That's preposterous, even for you. Where is your link to the "passed up open shot" stat. Show it now.
I am the most objective guy on this entire board.Except you admitted your own biases and how it affects your arguments.
you basically toe the line for the Spurs whether it's a screw up or not.Yeah, I always say Pop and the FO are perfect in every way. You really got me there -- except that I don't and you didn't.

[MadDog73]

Just to be clear, whottt, are you saying starting Barry was an obvious screw up?

I don't mind you bashing Pop, as long as you give him credit when he does something right (like win a game by 28 pts).

But I've pretty much decided that this tirade you're on is some weird way to exhume any kind of "jynx" or "blame" you feel you may have for the Spurs losing. I really think you believe that if you give the Spurs any praise at all, they will just pack up and lose.

[smeagol]

Smeagol, do you like Manu more than the Spurs and does this affect your opinion about his coming off the bench?
I already said, more than once, in more than one thread, that I'm ok with the move as long as it helps the Spurs.

Am I thrilled with the move? Not really.

Do I like Manu more than the Spurs? Yes. I started following basketball because of Manu. But after three years I have learned to love the Spurs (this site and the fans that post here are also a big reason for me liking the Spurs).

Does the fact that I like Manu more than the Spurs affect my opinion about him coming off the bench? Not really. I stated what my opinion is above (probably against most of what my fellow countrymen opine regarding the whole situation).

I'm convinced that what's best for the Spurs (i.e. winning the championship) is best for Manu, within certain logical limits. If Manu, being the second best Spur, gets demoted for no reason to 12th man and sees no playing time (extreme unrealistic scenario), I would like to see him traded.

I would also hope this is a temporary move.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think this move would've happened without all the injuries -- including Manu's physical problems. The whole Devin/Barry/Beno thing would've worked itself out and there would be a regular rotation. Unless Barry's production stays at the level of game 2, the Spurs will probably pick up where they left off before the injuries next season.

[whottt]

No you didn't. That's preposterous, even for you. Where is your link to the "passed up open shot" stat.

That's your job since you're the one making the accusation...I proved he lead the team in 3pa and 3pa per 48 minutes, playing 10 minutes les per game and less minutes with the two time MVP(you know, that guy that gets others open looks) than our two starting shooters did...

Basically you are saying a career 40% shooter got more open looks in 21 minutes off the bench than our 2 starting shooters got in 28 and 34 minutes, playing with Duncan...you are an idiot if you think that.

And a lot of those 21MPG Barry got were due to Duncan and Manu injuries...the two best creators on the team...

And Barry attempts substantially more threes per 48 than any other player on the team...and he also a greater PCT of his shots are threes than any other player on the team...61% of his shot attempts this season were threes...that's nearly 20% more than any other player on the team.



Show it now.

You show it...or else explain to me how a career 40% 3 shooter got more open looks in 21 MPG off the bench playing fewer minutes with the 2 time MVP than our 2 starting shooters did...

I want to see you try and claim that...Chump!




Except you admitted your own biases and how it affects your arguments.

Everyone has biases to an extent...those that admit it are more objective than those who don't...I never said I was without bias.



Yeah, I always say Pop and the FO are perfect in every way. You really got me there -- except that I don't and you didn't.

You never let the sac get out of your reach.

[ChumpDumper]

That's your job since you're the one making the accusation.Everyone here has seen him pass up wide open shots. That is a truth and a given.
You show it.You said you proved he took all his open shots. You didn't.
those that admit it are more objective than those who don't...I'm sure you have a stat for that too.

[smeagol]

I asked what that difference really amounts to -- and I'm still waiting for a real answer.
Are you really telling me you do not see a difference between starting and coming off the bench? even with all the argument spinning you do, I refuse to believe you are this blind.


Are you saying Manu is an MVP now? That he would be an MVP only if he started?
Huh . . . ? Did whottt say that?

I believe what whottt meant goes back to my argument: MVP > 6 MOY. Do you want to dispute this argument too?


The only argument I've gotten is that coming off the bench might cut into Manu's personal accolades and consequentially the vicarious pride his followers feel. No one has convinced me he's all that interested in those.
I said, three weeks ago, that I thought benching Manu to boost some other player's confidence, might be detrimental to Manu's own confidence (as it was last year). He himself has made it clear it is not. He has made it clear he wants the best for his team, he trusts Pop and that he will embrace the move. Therefore, I was wrong.

[whottt]

Just to be clear, whottt, are you saying starting Barry was an obvious screw up?

IMO, a great coach finds ways to utilize the strengths of his players rather than trying to shoehorn them into a system that doesn't suit their strenghts...a great coach can do this without making wholesale changes to the system...Pop is good at doing this on D and with defensive players...he's not good at doing it with offensive players.


I don't mind you bashing Pop, as long as you give him credit when he does something right (like win a game by 28 pts).

I give him credit for a lot of stuff...in that game I could give him credit for motivation...

But a coach is under the microscope in close games...that's when he has the most impact on a w or a l...and Pop got blackeye on that in game 1 of this series...




But I've pretty much decided that this tirade you're on is some weird way to exhume any kind of "jynx" or "blame" you feel you may have for the Spurs losing. I really think you believe that if you give the Spurs any praise at all, they will just pack up and lose.

Hey...I'll be the happiest guy on the board if Pop continues the season long trend of making me be wrong when I have called him out...but I am gonna bitch every time we choke in the 4th quarter and Barry doesn't get any PT...

I think those two things go hand in hand...and I can back it up if I have to do so(but I've already done that many times).

But for now? I don't think Pop has what it takes to win this series after choking the first game. Defense isn't going to be enough...the Nuggets are a good defensive team too...and I just flat out don't think he's Karl's equal on coaching both sides of the ball...and he now has to be to win this series.

[ChumpDumper]

Are you really telling me you do not see a difference between starting and coming off the bench?There is, but what does that difference really mean aside from lowering one's chance at MVP? Is it really making a difference on the court?
I believe what whottt meant goes back to my argument: MVP > 6 MOY. Do you want to dispute this argument too?I will dispute the relevance of this -- aside from individual prizes and accolades, what is the difference coming off the bench where it really matters, on the court?
I said, three weeks ago, that I thought benching Manu to boost some other player's confidence, might be detrimental to Manu's own confidence (as it was last year). He himself has made it clear it is not. He has made it clear he wants the best for his team, he trusts Pop and that he will embrace the move. Therefore, I was wrong.That's what i like about you. Asked and answered.

[SPARKY]

Oh joy! Another whottt v ChumpHumper circle jerk.

[whottt]

STFU and go make a new user name...it's what you seem to do best these days...it's all you seem to do.

[SPARKY]

Actually, these days I tend not to read your drivel.

[whottt]

You also tend to not post any of your own, cheerleader...what's the problem? Tired of getting owned? Still hurting from the Jason Kidd thing?

[SPARKY]

Yes, your ability to say nothing in 10,000 words never ceases to amaze.

[smeagol]

There is, but what does that difference really mean aside from lowering one's chance at MVP? Is it really making a difference on the court?
C'mon chump. Looks like you are beating a dead horse. Why do the best players start? Why don't the play their 35 - 45 mpg coming off the bench?

Tell me how many players have asked to be traded because they start and I will tell you how many players have asked to be traded because they did not start.

There's money considerations too, although in Manu's case this does not apply.

And then there's prestige.

You might agree or not agree with my reasons, but reality validates me. Best players get the best contracts and start, don't come off the bench.


I will dispute the relevance of this -- aside from individual prizes and accolades, what is the difference coming off the bench where it really matters, on the court?
With what I believe I agree with you is on the fact it does not matter that much the whole benching issue if Manu gets his minutes and closes games, which I trust is what will happen going forward. But even if he gets his 30 mpg and he closes games, I would like to see Manu start sooner rather than later.


That's what i like about you. Asked and answered.

Man, I got whottt and chump to through some love my way. This might be the first time you guys agree on something. :elephant

[ChumpDumper]

Why don't the play their 35 - 45 mpg coming off the bench?Manu's ability to play that long is in question, so that was definitely part of the decision process.
Tell me how many players have asked to be traded because they start and I will tell you how many players have asked to be traded because they did not start.Will Manu?
There's money considerations too, although in Manu's case this does not apply.Well, we are talking about Manu here.
And then there's prestige.Yes, and this seems to be the overriding reason, which is why I specified what it changes on the basketball court.
But even if he gets his 30 mpg and he closes games, I would like to see Manu start sooner rather than later.We'll see. We might be looking for a long time trying to find someone to bring it off the bench consistently.

[smeagol]

Manu's ability to play that long is in question, so that was definitely part of the decision process.
He can play 30 mpg starting and coming off the bench. Arguably, if he comes of the bench, he has less time to rest.


Will Manu?
How the hell should I know? We can ask him in the "Messages to Manu" section of his website.


Well, we are talking about Manu here.
We are, but I was also giving you the reasons why starting>comming off the bench, but they seem to go into your brain through one ear and come out the other one without sinking in . . .


Yes, and this seems to be the overriding reason, which is why I specified what it changes on the basketball court.We'll see.
The overriding reason is that the best players start (I proved this to you at nauseaum). It follows logically that if Manu is arguably the 2nd best Spur, Manu should start. He will help the team because he is one of the most unselfish players in the NBA, to fix a short term problem. But in the long run, he should start.


We might be looking for a long time trying to find someone to bring it off the bench consistently.
So lets use the "energy guy", the "spark of off the bench" the "garbage player".

Do you really want Sequ to bitch forever about how the Spurs pay $52MM to a bench player? :spin

[ChumpDumper]

He can play 30 mpg starting and coming off the bench.And he can do both well.
Arguably, if he comes of the bench, he has less time to rest.That would really only matter if he were trying to play much over 30 minutes. Manu averaged the fewest minutes of any All-Star this season, even the historically gimpy ones. To me that speaks more to how special Manu can be in the limited time he can play - and I'm sure he could get an All-Star berth coming off the bench too. Quite prestigious.
How the hell should I know? We can ask him in the "Messages to Manu" section of his website.It looks like he already answered it there.
We are, but I was also giving you the reasons why starting>comming off the bench, but they seem to go into your brain through one ear and come out the other one without sinking inNot really, we only now started talking about what actually happens on the court -- I asked that specifically.
The overriding reason is that the best players startSo "just because" is the main reason.
So lets use the "energy guy", the "spark of off the bench" the "garbage player"Let's use the players in a way that maximizes the effectiveness of the team, and to hell with the prestige of having your name called before the game. I have never used the term "garbage player" for Manu, so don't attribute that to me. And since when is being an energy guy or or bench spark a bad thing? Prestige again?
Do you really want Sequ to bitch forever about how the Spurs pay $52MM to a bench player? He's going to bitch no matter what. Sorry if hurts anyone's prestige.

[MadDog73]

Chump, are you actually suggesting that Manu come off the bench for the rest of his career?

If that's what you're arguing, I have to agree with Smeagol - he will eventually ask for a trade, or be traded because a bench player is not worth that kind of salary, no matter how good he is.

But really I think this is being blown way out of porportion. Has Pop said anywhere that Manu will ALWAYS come off the bench? No.

He'll do it sometimes to throw off the opposition, but Pop knows Manu is one the Spurs best players, and he won't keep him off the starting line-up forever.

[smeagol]

Chump:

The best players start. That's my view. If there's a short term problem, and Manu solves it by coming off the bench, so be it. In the long run, he should start because he is good enough to be considered a starter.

We can go round and round in circles if you want. I stand by the above statement.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, are you actually suggesting that Manu come off the bench for the rest of his career?I'm just working with hypotheticals here. I've already said what I think will happen next season, and that includes Manu's starting again.
The best players start. That's my view.I know, but I'm asking for everyone's reasoning on why that must be so.
he should start because he is good enough to be considered a starter.You just went around in your own circle.

As I said, I think he'll go back to starting next season at the latest. It's just really interesting to hear the reasons put forth as to why he must start.

[ALVAREZ6]

It's just really interesting to hear the reasons put forth as to why he must start.
Because even though Manu does want to do the best for the team, and he does want to win, there's something that tells me that he might just want to do the best for HIM...after all, it's his career, and he wants to get the best out of it.

I'll say it again if I have to: The Spurs were the best team in the league when healthy, and next season, the team will be just that: healthy.

...therefor, Manu starts.

[smeagol]

As I said, I think he'll go back to starting next season at the latest.
No need to discuss this anymore. we agree! :lol


It's just really interesting to hear the reasons put forth as to why he must start.
Best players, in every sport start, the don't come off the bench, they are not subs. Soccer, basketball, rugby, hocky, etc.

[ChumpDumper]

Best players, in every sport start, the don't come off the bench, they are not subs. Soccer, basketball, rugby, hocky, etc.You can't vote for "because that's the way it is" again -- we got it the first time. Sometimes relief pitchers are the best on the team, however.

As I said, that argument is merely academic -- but there is something pretty attractive about the idea that Nazr and Barry could hold their own as starters and Rasho and Manu (and hopefully Scola) could anchor the most ridiculous second squad in professional basketball.

[ALVAREZ6]

Sometimes relief pitchers are the best on the team, however.


Baseball doesn't count at all, it's not even a sport.

[T Park]

Manu is a better fit as a firey high point scorer off the bench, ALA Ricky Pierce, John havlicheck, all of those guys.

Detlef Schrempf was a HELL of a player, and he won multiple six mans in Indiana and Seattle.


Manu has been, and will be IMO, a firey, sparkplug, high scorer off the bench, that gets alot of minutes in the 4th quarter.


I think his should stay this way, and, IMO, what the hell, keep it next year.

Its what is best for the team.

Rasho, Scola, Ginobili would be a great bench.

[T Park]

Baseball doesn't count at all, it's not even a sport.

uh yeah it is poindexter.

[Brodels]

The best players start. That's how it's supposed to be.

Says who? Why is it supposed to be that way? Fact: it isn't that way.


Please stop bringing up KM and all the other great six men. Its getting old.

It's the example that kills your whole argument. You're telling me that Kevin McHale was 'supposed' to start and that he wasn't one of the best players on the team? What about Ricky Pierce? He was considered to be the best player on some Seattle teams. Desmond Mason has come off of the bench for much of his career. He certainly hasn't been inferior to every swing player starting in front of him.

It's clear that there isn't a particular way it's 'supposed' to be, and it's also clear that the best players don't always start.


the valid points he makes

So you agree that the best players are always supposed to start and that bench players can never be better than starters. That's the point he's making, quoted above.


said, three weeks ago, that I thought benching Manu to boost some other player's confidence, might be detrimental to Manu's own confidence (as it was last year). He himself has made it clear it is not. He has made it clear he wants the best for his team, he trusts Pop and that he will embrace the move. Therefore, I was wrong.

I see where you're coming from, and it makes sense. I'm not sure that Whottt really understands, though.

[ALVAREZ6]

uh yeah it is poindexter.
ummm...no baseball is a hobby.

You call fat, out of shape, steroid-using men athletes?

[T Park]

whottt disagrees with the move.

Because he hates Popovich.

That simple.

Pop could say go, he would say stop.

Green, blue.


Whottt the great, who thinks he is smarter than two time NBA Champion head coach,
but thats always par for the course on a message board.


People think they can do better, they talk out of their ass thinking they know whats going on when not even there.

It runs rampant, and hes at the head of he dumbass class.

[T Park]

You call fat, out of shape, steroid-using men athletes?


Blow it out of your ass.

A small percentage of the players does not make a sport.

Quit talking out of your ass Euro.

[timvp]

Quit talking out of your ass Euro.

Classic.

[T Park]

Apologize.

Quit talking out of your ass, South American.

[picnroll]

Wasn't Maradona an out of shape cokehead for a large part of his career.

(Waiting for Argentinian's to burn the board down :angel )

[T Park]

oh picnroll

You might as well have called Ginobili El Diablo

[ALVAREZ6]

Blow it out of your ass.

A small percentage of the players does not make a sport.


A small percentage...

I'm fucking talking about the Sport itself.

OK let's break down the GAME of baseball.

roughly 50% of the amount of total time of the game, you are in the dug-out waiting to bat.

Even if you are a pitcher, 50% of the game you are pitching, and a team goes through many pitchers in one game, wich lowers the %.

After the 50% in the dug out, the out fielders in the out field are not getting much action at all, so they are moving their bodies about 45% of the time they are fielding.

They don't do shit, which explains why they play 162 fucking games in one season, playing 3 games in a row with no days in between.

[ALVAREZ6]

Wasn't Maradona an out of shape cokehead for a large part of his career.
(Waiting for Argentinian's to burn the board down :angel )
Not during his career.

[ALVAREZ6]

Apologize.

Quit talking out of your ass, South American.
Quit talking out of your ass, American.

[leemajors]

if the matchups are more favorable with him coming off the bench, let him come off the bench. if not, he starts. if barry is gonna shoot like that vs a nuggets zone, he should continue to start. next opponent or game may dictate otherwise. hopefully we'll get to the next round and see what works - wins are what is important here, not who starts.

[spurster]

Well, Chump usually your best players start because usually starters play more minutes. However, there is no absolute rule to start your best players, and there are a few notable HOF, title-winning, counterexamples. Undoubtedly, Manu wants to start, but Manu also wants to do what is best for the team. The number of NBA teams that would highly value such talent, dedication. amd selflessness is probably on the order of 30.

I thought someone should answer your question.

[smeagol]

Well, Chump usually your best players start because usually starters play more minutes. However, there is no absolute rule to start your best players, and there are a few notable HOF, title-winning, counterexamples. Undoubtedly, Manu wants to start, but Manu also wants to do what is best for the team. The number of NBA teams that would highly value such talent, dedication. amd selflessness is probably on the order of 30.

I thought someone should answer your question.
*Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap*

*Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap* *Clap*

Spurster gets it

[hendrix]

Wasn't Maradona an out of shape cokehead for a large part of his career.

Well, you're probably right in that he was (or sadly, still is) a "cokehead". Thats a really sad fact.
If think using cocaine improves a soccer player´s game, then you're a little confused.
You might be thinking other sports like football (NFL) where most of the players are "high" or at least in high doses of illegal substances.

[smeagol]

It's the example that kills your whole argument. You're telling me that Kevin McHale was 'supposed' to start and that he wasn't one of the best players on the team? What about Ricky Pierce? He was considered to be the best player on some Seattle teams. Desmond Mason has come off of the bench for much of his career. He certainly hasn't been inferior to every swing player starting in front of him.

It's clear that there isn't a particular way it's 'supposed' to be, and it's also clear that the best players don't always start.

You win Brodels. I will rephrase my statement. Best players usually start.

If people here think he brings more to the table from the bench rather then starting (Tpark and the rest), that's fine.

I don't predict Manu playing for more than one season for the Spurs, if he is coming off the bench.

[smeagol]

Quit talking out of your ass Euro.
TPark, you a an ignorant idiot.

By the way, baseball sucks! Its as much of a sport as curling, drag races and figure skating.

[mookie2001]

even i agree with t-park that baseball is a sport

[smeagol]

even i agree with t-park that baseball is a sport

I said it was a sport and compared it to some other wonderfully entertaining sports.

[hendrix]

even i agree with t-park that baseball is a sport

Yes, Baseball is a sport. Chess too.

[smeagol]

whottt, your support does not go unappreciated :tu

[whottt]

de nada smeagol.

[T Park]

Why even bother talking with the Argentinians.

Jack asses.

[Man In Black]

Lucky none of you brought up the Falkland Islands. :oops

Seriously, an issue with a team of such diversified nationalism is that national pride plays a big part in how people feel.

THey should take their cue from whoever their backing. Do I think that Manu deserves to start? Yeah, but it's a strange time and this team isn't at full strength. As such, adjustments need to be made. If the Spurs are fully healthy, then there is no need for such adjustment.
Besides, MANU HAS ALREADY SAID THAT HE HAS NO ISSUE WITH IT. The title, that is what's important to both him and the team and...TO ALL OF US.

[ChumpDumper]

Malvinas Islands, motherfucker!

[Man In Black]

Ease up Chump.. It was the Falklands/Malvinas that the British & Argentina had their little tete-a-tete for.

Take your choice.
Look it up biatch :)

[T Park]

They get pissed when you bring up the Falklands.

Just ask Manny lmfao....

[ChumpDumper]

:nope

[Man In Black]

Damn...Chump...you got a lot of pent up aggression. YOU NEED TO GET LAID.

[ChumpDumper]

And you need to recognize sarcasm when you see it.

[Man In Black]

And you need to recognize sarcasm when you see it.

EXACTLY :fro

But the laid part...there is always something good that can come of that.

[dn0]

okay now we need sequ with an "Argentinian history forum" post.

[smeagol]

Why even bother talking with the Argentinians.

Jack asses.
There goes again the ignorant Tpark putting everybody in the same bag with his stupid generalization.

Why is it that you can't talk to me? What have I said that makes you say "why bother talking to all the Argentineans"?

Because I critiziced baseball? That's it? That's what pissed you off?

You are the idiot who referred to somebody from Argentina (Alvarez) as Euro, showing how ignorant you are.

[Man In Black]

TPark...you're ign'ant. Ya hear? Freakin' Carney. :fro (Hey did you like Yuma and the Fairgrounds?) Read a little more. Argentina is in SOUTH AMERICA. South East Side of South America represent.

Never generalize, using the context "All Argentinians" is a rather wide brush. FOCUS. That is like saying that ALL SPURS FANS ARE SMART. And juding by the quality of some of your's, Sequ's, and Duck's....well, let's just say that SCHOOL HOUSE ROCK might be of great benefit to you all.


For people like fla"K"erfraud...there are no options. Dumb as a rock and he doesn't even know it.

[smeagol]

They get pissed when you bring up the Falklands.

Just ask Manny lmfao....
And you are the idiot who is trying again to get me worked up, after you saw the way I reacted to Manny's stupid comment about the Malvinas war, where I personally know people who died in it.

Hope you don't start talking shit, cause Kori will have to lock this thread in no time.

[Man In Black]

smeagol...we're in a chase for the precious...FOCUS.

[smeagol]

smeagol...we're in a chase for the precious...FOCUS.
Don't worry, I'm focused alright.

Man In Black, are you he same MIB who posts at SR ag LG?

[hendrix]

Why even bother talking with the Argentinians.
Jack asses.

Wow!, Can not take some jokes about baseball??
Or must i assume "Jackasses" is a joke too?

Saying baseball is not a sport is not to be taken seriuosly, dude. You should have said something bashing Maradona or Polo players or whatever you find amusing about Argentina, i've seen the pattern :)
But then again... :) I've seen Terry Pendleton play third base for the Braves and tho he was an awesome player, i remember thinking "no need to be in shape or in physical condition to play this sport". :)

[ALVAREZ6]

T park is an ignorant fuck...and he gets so offended by us saying "baseball is not a sport,"

None of us Argentineans can even get a fair answer from T park, you notice how in every single post we make, he can't even respond without even mentioning Argentina.

[whottt]

TimVP and TPark...you owe me an apology. I rewatched game 2 and the Spurs most certainly were sending Barry to doubleteam Carmelo whenever he was trying to post Bruce up...and they were expecting Barry to get back to his man...They sent Barry every time the Nuggets used a similar formation for the first 4 minutes of that quarter. And Pop was never even close to getting pissed until that last time...

The reason Pop got pissed at Barry was because he was keeping the double on too long, and was following the play up to the top of the key after Melo was no longer trying to post Bowen up, instead of getting back to his man...

And on the very next play after yanking Barry they sent Manu as the help on Martin..from the exact same spot.

And it is an unsual defense for the Spurs(which is probably why everyone noticed it) but an article out of the Colorado newspaper said it was something that the TVolves used last season to great effect...

And the funniest part is that after Pop got pissed about it he's sitting there on the sidelines explaining to Budenholzer why he was pissed about the way Barry did it...

You and TPark need to apologize for talking to me like I am stupid and ya'll know it all, because ya'll were wrong. Barry most definitely was the double man.

They were sending Barry to doubleteam, and they were expecting him to get back to Johnson in time...Pop does expect him to be Michael Cooper...

[whottt]

And BTW, Barry wasn't the only one Pop was pissed at on that time out...he shot the look of death at two players on that time out...the second one was Barry...the first one was Bruce! I couldn't figure out what Bruce did to earn the look but after rewatching that part of the game several times I came to the conclusion that what made him mad at Bruce was that Bruce never corrected Barry on when to break off the double...after Barry followed it up to the top of the key 2 or 3 times.

[Gerryatrics]

Good luck with that apology Whottt. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why it was a good idea to bench Barry when the Nuggets started playing zone and the Spurs offense just fell apart.

[whottt]

LOL I am just messing with them because they gave me crap over the double team thing...Barry was doubling though and it was a weird scheme that I can't really ever remember the Spurs using before. It looked weird.