Pop vs. Phil

[ShoogarBear]

Unless this thing turns around soon, the debate about who is the better coach will be closed.

Say what you want about Phil, it is absolutely guaranteed that by the end of the year, he would find a way to have a team with as much talent as the Spurs have ready for a deep run into the playoffs.

The most disappointing thing about this season is seeing Pop turn to the worst side of his Nelson/Brown roots, poor-mouthing the Spurs talent level.

[timtonymanu]

Pop has gotten outcoached by how many coaches this season.

[benefactor]

....and bad mouthing ex-Spurs that helped carry is defensive "system".

[ShoogarBear]

....and bad mouthing ex-Spurs that helped carry is defensive "system".

Yeah, that was also a move straight out of Nellie. (Although Phil would be capable of something like that, too.)

[Spurs da champs]

Pop has gotten outcoached by how many coaches this season.

Especially in Portland. But Pop is the better coach he uses the minimal talent he has to win championships.

[objective]

Phil Jackson vs. Pop . . . Pat Riley vs. KC Jones ???

Both won titles

One coached his team to wins, the other rode having the better team?

[SequSpur]

Phil has had Kobe, MJ, and Shaq.

WTF?

[picc84]

Phil "play Derek Fisher 30 minutes a game when he's shooting 4-for-2000" Jackson?

Phil "Puke Walton has to bench HIMSELF before I start playing Trevor Ariza" Jackson?

[ShoogarBear]

Phil Jackson vs. Pop . . . Pat Riley vs. KC Jones ???

Both won titles

One coached his team to wins, the other rode having the better team?

Not really accurate. The Spurs won several titles without having the best overall talent, although they had the best two-way team player. Pop deserves all the credit for molding the system around Tim.

But . . .the thing I always gave Phil props for was that he never shied away from the expectations of having lots of talent. Lots of people slammed him for always having an MJ or Shaq or Kobe, but the fact is that some coaches will run away from that or try to minimize their roster in the media. (Nellie is the A#1 example. The guy has always angled more for Coach of the Year awards than championships, and was more interested in having a reputation as a "genius" and complaining about what he didn't have.)

There's no way the current Spurs roster wouldn't make the WCF with Phil coaching them.

[Capt Bringdown]

There's a debate?

[HarlemHeat37]

Coaching is really overrated in the NBA..a coach can hurt a team a lot more than he can hurt it..

Phil Jackson has never won a title without having the most talent in the NBA..

Pop has never won a title without the greatest PF of all-time and arguably the best defender in the NBA for those title teams..

[slayermin]

Phyllis owns Pop. It's sickening.

[objective]

Not really accurate. The Spurs won several titles without having the best overall talent, although they had the best two-way team player. Pop deserves all the credit for molding the system around Tim.

Best talent overall in the league wasn't exactly it, I'm talking about match-ups.

Some questions I was saving for a new thread topic and may still yet do:

1. Have the Spurs ever won a title when they were underdogs? Not favorites, or even, but underdogs? They've never been in that position.

2. Now how many playoff series period have the Spurs won as underdogs under Pop? Now how many series have they lost while they were favorites?

Honest answers to those questions aren't in and of themselves an indictment of Pop, and prove nothing.

But it has led me back to KC Jones.

He had a 5 year stretch that was amazing, very close to Pop's best 5 year stretch, and that was when the Celtics had to deal with the Laker dynasty and the rise of the Bad Boys.

In 5 years, KC had 2 titles, 2 finals losses, and 1 loss in the ECF. A great 5 year run. But when it comes to discussions about the great coaches of all time, he never gets mentioned. Ever. He's not in the hall of fame for his coaching.

Why? I don't know. I'm not old enough to remember those years too well.

But if KC Jones, multiple ring winner, all-around elite winner with the Celtics, doesn't get any credit because he had a legend like Larry Bird . . . maybe that shouldn't be the only case?

You can see where I'm going.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, I was in Boston for those years so I know what you're talking about.

For one, K.C. inherited a championship-level team from Bill Fitch. So what he did was closely (but not exactly) analogous to George Seifert picking up the 49ers after Walsh left. However, K.C. had already been a successful coach with the Bullets and taken them to the Finals.

Pop obviously deserves more credit that K.C., since he didn't take over a ready-made team. On the other hand, K.C. probably deserves a little more credit than he's gotten historically.

I don't buy that it's easy to win when you have the talent. Don Nelson, to bring up my favorite whipping boy again, won two COY awards during K.C.'s era at Boston for doing substantially less, excepting the category of media pandering.

I will agree with your points about Pop only winning when he's a favorite, and getting upset at least twice (04 and 06). On the other hand, you could argue that in both of those cases, the teams that beat him intrinsically had more talent, even though the Spurs were favored.

[objective]

I will agree with your points about Pop only winning when he's a favorite, and getting upset at least twice (04 and 06). On the other hand, you could argue that in both of those cases, the teams that beat him intrinsically had more talent, even though the Spurs were favored.

True

But one could also argue in those cases (04 and 06) that coaching decisions made an impact on the Spurs chances for winning (not guarding the inbounds for 0.4 and smallball, respectively).

Also Pop does deserve credit for building a team without a title core, but it did have a core. Robinson, Elliott, Avery, that was a core of a team that had been to the WCF.

[timvp]

Unless this thing turns around soon, the debate about who is the better coach will be closed.

Was this actually a debate?

[timvp]

To be clear, I think Pop is a great coach -- looking at things on the big picture level. But PJ is the best coach I've seen in any sport at any level.

[EP Money Man]

To be clear, I think Pop is a great coach -- looking at things on the big picture level. But PJ is the best coach I've seen in any sport at any level.

PJ Carlisimo?

[phxspurfan]

Phil is the only coach I've ever heard of who actually incorporated Buddhism into his coaching style.
http://rgr-static1.tangentlabs.co.uk/images/bau/97806131/9780613102797/0/0/plain/sacred-hoops.jpg
It's a crazy idea and it totally has worked.

[sabar]

Coaching is really overrated in the NBA..a coach can hurt a team a lot more than he can hurt it..

Phil Jackson has never won a title without having the most talent in the NBA..

Pop has never won a title without the greatest PF of all-time and arguably the best defender in the NBA for those title teams..

I agree with this. Fact is, almost all of winning comes down to the players themselves. Coaches rarely pull out crazy lineups to create massive matchup problems and win with some genius move. Some coaches are better at Xs and Os than others. Pop is a genius at drawing up a play for instance.

But when it comes down to it, nearly any coach in the NBA can read match-ups correctly and field a lineup capable of winning. Its up to the players to win from that point out.

This year has been a testament to a coach hurting a team more than helping. Pop's quest for a killer lineup and attempt to mismatch and opponent with small ball has actually led to his team being mismatched against the other one.

Phil probably could have a better record than Pop right now with the same team, mostly because he wouldn't be fielding a different lineup every 2 minutes of a game and at the start of each new game.

[ShoogarBear]

Was this actually a debate?

Yes. For example, this noted Popapologist with the classic argument:


Phil has had Kobe, MJ, and Shaq.

WTF?

[DAF86]

Coaching is really overrated in the NBA..a coach can hurt a team a lot more than he can hurt it..

Phil Jackson has never won a title without having the most talent in the NBA..

Pop has never won a title without the greatest PF of all-time and arguably the best defender in the NBA for those title teams..

I agree, the best coach is the one that screws his team the least.

[timvp]

Yes. For example, this noted Popapologist with the classic argument:

:lol I thought for a second you were going to quote me. I was readying my backpedal.

[ShoogarBear]

:lol I thought for a second you were going to quote me. I was readying my backpedal.

:lol See, I have gotten as lazy as RJ or I would have looked for one from you.

[HarlemHeat37]

For example, look at Mike Brown..

The guy can barely run a play..he just gives it to the best player in the NBA and let's him do whatever he wants..this strategy got them to the NBA Finals, a game 7 in the semis, and the WCF..the only thing stopping them was lack of talent..

He keeps it simple..he's a good defensive coach that let's the best player in the NBA control his team..

Do you guys believe Doc Rivers is a better coach than Phil Jackson?..

Coaching is just incredibly overrated when it comes to the positives of a team..I think you can rate coaches as good/bad, but ranking them and giving them so much credit is just stupid IMO..

[duncan228]

“The Lakers were obviously a little shorthanded and played mentally tougher than we did and physically tougher than we did,” Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. “Don’t ask me why.”

[duncan228]

Found the rest of Pop's quote.


"Don't ask me why we didn't play tougher. Because if I knew, we'd have played differently."


Popovich, known for saving a tirade for midseason to get his team's attention, said he has already tried that -- "five of six times."

"For some reason, I'm not getting through to this group."


"Bottom line, we just haven't jelled as a group, to date," said Popovich before the game.

"We haven't developed a trust, a communication, a camaraderie as far as executing on the court -- which is strange for us. We've never had that situation, really. . . .

"Everybody [in the West] is kind of in the same muck. The Lakers aren't playing as well as they have in the past, although the Lakers are better than everybody else in the West.

"We're all in the same boat, really. Nobody's really stepping out of it and playing really good consistent basketball. We're all kind of up and down."

[timvp]

"For some reason, I'm not getting through to this group."

:depressed

[neboat]

Found the rest of Pop's quote.

These are today's post game quotes? I dunno man...i hate the shit that POP spews out to the press...the way he does interviews....

He used to be honest in interviews...in the past few years he's over compensate...now it's all a load of crap

[duncan228]

These are today's post game quotes?

They're today, some before and some after the game.

[neboat]

and just to add to the phil vs pop discussion..

Phil is willing and able to take different and extreme personalities and make them work

It seems Pop only wants mature self motivated coachable players that are less talented... JR Smith would not have lasted a month if we had gotten him for Barry....

[MannyIsGod]

I know Pop wanted to go out with Duncan - but if he's not getting through to the team then maybe he should reconsider that. Maybe its time to bring in a coach and let Pop handle the front office.

[HarlemHeat37]

"Getting through" is really irrelevant..Pop can say it all he wants, but this team clearly doesn't have the talent to compete right now..it's simple as that..even if this team built a great chemistry, we'd still have major holes, and we'd still be an old ass team..it doesn't help that he sticks to small ball and neglects the youth in favor of old ass men..

[MannyIsGod]

Its not a talent issue. This team has a LOT of talent on it. Its probably not championship quality, but it sure as hell is a lot better than what they're playing at right now.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree that they're definitely better than how they've played, but I really don't think this team has that much talent..there's also major holes that can only be solved with using players that the Spurs don't currently have in our rotation..

[ShoogarBear]

"Getting through" is really irrelevant..Pop can say it all he wants, but this team clearly doesn't have the talent to compete right now..it's simple as that..even if this team built a great chemistry, we'd still have major holes, and we'd still be an old ass team..it doesn't help that he sticks to small ball and neglects the youth in favor of old ass men..

The team has more talent 1-12 than any team Popovich has ever had, including the 03/04/05 years. So I think if the chemistry were there, we would be thinking that there was a very good chance at another title.

The perceptions everyone had at the beginning of the year were not unfounded.

[intothechaos]

Pop says.." I will counter young with old"..... Yeah really genious Pop. May have worked in the past. But like your team, that strategy is old already. You suck so bad right now we fans aren't buying it anymore. Either get the fuck out or do your fkn job. None of your players like you anymore..well maybe only Bonner. You have wasted this season and you need to go....

[Brazil]

pop has no idea at all regarding how turning this group around.... no fucking clue.

It's time to prepare the future and give a shot to the young guys ! hairston ian blair hill

[ElNono]

:depressed

I called this a few weeks ago. Some players just simply tuning out Pop.
Guys like Mason started great, and now they're just a turd sandwich. Bogans too.

[ElNono]

I agree that they're definitely better than how they've played, but I really don't think this team has that much talent..there's also major holes that can only be solved with using players that the Spurs don't currently have in our rotation..

This team might not be able to compete with the Lakers on a 7 game series, and it might have some holes, but they're talented. Sloan would have this team executing like clockwork and playing defense by now. Pop has just been too soft all season long on these guys and too in love with Nellie ball.

[Spurminator]

As far as I can tell, Phil Jackson today is the same coach he was 20 years ago. In many respects, Pop has done a complete 180 from the coach he used to be.

There were times in the early aughts when his rotations were maddeningly consistent... to the point where he would even pull the hot hand because it was the 2:00 mark of the first quarter and that's when he gets subbed every game. His focus on defense often had fans scratching their heads as the team put up brick after brick on the offensive side.

Now we have Midget Ball and we can't decide on a rotation until... well, shit, it was still changing in the Playoffs last year.

This team has enough talent to be a lot better than they are, and I think this was the case last year as well. The coaching has been subpar. I'm not sure what the alternative is, but at this point I think it might be time to have someone else running this team on the sideline.

[Johnny RIngo]

It seems Pop only wants mature self motivated coachable players that are less talented... JR Smith would not have lasted a month if we had gotten him for Barry....

JR Smith is human garbage though. Talented player but a shit human being.

On that note, it's always bugged me that the FO would rather go after someone like Jefferson instead of SJax just because the former has a vanilla personality.

[picc84]

The grass is always greener, huh guys.

[dbestpro]

The grass is always greener, huh guys.

Yeah we wish we had all your rings and you wish you had all the Celtics and the Celtics can't understand why they don't win every year.

[Obstructed_View]

Coaches rarely pull out crazy lineups to create massive matchup problems and win with some genius move.

Yet Popovich continually tries to do exactly that. I guess he's praying for his "Nellie versus the 07 Mavs" moment, and is willing to sacrifice any number of opportunities in order to make it happen.

[picc84]

We switch coaches and 2 months later you're pissed off and complaining about all the same shit you bitch about now.

lol Pop wont play young talent over old-scrubs so we need Phil. PJ INVENTED that shit. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

I guarantee that Phil Jackson wouldn't be carefully monitoring the minutes of a team that can't play well together and shows no heart or energy. He'd put a seven man rotation out there against Denver on Thursday and make some of those guys play 42+ minutes.

[picc84]

For everything you think Pop does wrong and Phil does right, there is something Pop does right and Phil does wrong.

[ShoogarBear]

We switch coaches and 2 months later you're pissed off and complaining about all the same shit you bitch about now.

lol Pop wont play young talent over old-scrubs so we need Phil. PJ INVENTED that shit. :lol

Missing the point, it's not about methods, it's about results.

When was the last time Jackson didn't make a deep playoff run with a talented team? The only year he didn't was 2003 when he lost to the Spurs, and he was arguably only a Horry rimout from beating them.

[pad300]

Found the rest of Pop's quote.


"Don't ask me why we didn't play tougher. Because if I knew, we'd have played differently."



Popovich, known for saving a tirade for midseason to get his team's attention, said he has already tried that -- "five of six times."


"For some reason, I'm not getting through to this group."



"Bottom line, we just haven't jelled as a group, to date," said Popovich before the game.


"We haven't developed a trust, a communication, a camaraderie as far as executing on the court -- which is strange for us. We've never had that situation, really. . . .


"Everybody [in the West] is kind of in the same muck. The Lakers aren't playing as well as they have in the past, although the Lakers are better than everybody else in the West.


"We're all in the same boat, really. Nobody's really stepping out of it and playing really good consistent basketball. We're all kind of up and down."


You picked the players and signed them, Pop.
You approved the trades.
You established the strategic plan for this season.
You picked the game plan
You picked the lineups

YOUR RESPONSIBILITY

[picc84]

Missing the point, it's not about methods, it's about results.

Aren't the two correlated?

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't see it..maybe if you guys mean offensive talent, but clearly we don't have as much overall talent..there's a whole other side of the floor, not just offense..also, more importantly..

Prime Duncan >>> Current Duncan(slightly better offensively, significantly better defensively)..

Prime Manu >>> Current Manu..no argument here..

Parker of the last few years(I won't just say last year, because maybe it was an anomaly, although I don't believe that) > Current Parker..

That alone will heavily bring down a team's overall talent..1-D offensive players like Bonner and Mason don't significantly change a team's overall talent..

[ShoogarBear]

Aren't the two correlated?

When it comes to Pop vs. Phil, no. The point is that come the playoffs, Phil would have this team ready to play. It doesn't appear that Pop will.

[Killakobe81]

For everything you think Pop does wrong and Phil does right, there is something Pop does right and Phil does wrong.

Amen brother! I have been there with Phil but I said if we won teh t itle LAST year I would lay off him this one.

Look both guy are HOF coaches IMHO ...who is better BEFORE last season i said Pop and Riley were BETTER than Phil but last year he won me over ...the Lakers were good but not as good as the Shaq/kobe or MJ/Pipp teams ...

But he won ...

[Cane]

Its not so much about coaching as its about:

http://lakerslive.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/pau-gasol.jpg

The Lakers, even with Phil Jackson coaching, were a first round exit team without that trade/collusion in 2005-06 and 2006-07.

The difference really is Pau Gasol and the West's inability to stack up enough talent to compete with that infamous acquisition.

Looking at the "what ifs" there really aren't that many players available for trade this past summer that would've skyrocketed our Spurs or any Western team into contending with Kobe/Artest/Odom/Bynun/Gasol.

On top of that the big three have really played underwhelmingly including Mr. Duncan. Their stats may look okay, except for Ginobili's FG%, but their presence and ability to hold off against the opposing team's best is nowhere near what it needs to be and probably will never reach such heights against LA. Hard to think of too many games, hell its hard to think of even one, where one of the Spurs big 3 stepped up and carried the team in the 4th like whats expected of star talent.

As for the supporting cast and Dick Jefferson - nothing needs to be said about them.

[Fabbs]

Last night TNT showed Popabitch bitching on the bench to Duncan.
What was that all about?

[picc84]

When it comes to Pop vs. Phil, no. The point is that come the playoffs, Phil would have this team ready to play. It doesn't appear that Pop will.

According to what? Every time Phillip has went deep into the playoffs, he's had either the two best players in the league (Kobe, Shaq), or a top 2 player in the league (Kobe) who did as much coaching as he did. Every time Pop has gone into the playoffs with Duncan playing at that level, he's made similar runs. They were a Manu foul away from a repeat in 2006. The reason the Spurs got past the Suns and Hornets in 2008 was because of Pops gameplans and adjustments.

Guess what kind of adjustments Phillip makes in-game? Jack shit. He comes up with great gameplans, but as soon as the other team figures it out and it doesn't work anymore, he just sits on his ass, even if they're going on a 20-0 rape run. He's a damn good strategic coach but almost fucking worthless as a tactical one. If you think Pop is stubborn and Phillip would be a breath of fresh air you'd be in for one garglefuck of a surprise.

Once he's decided someone is 'good for the triangle', thats pretty much it. If you're tired of seeing Finley out there i'd love to see you after Phillip got ahold of the team. Old - check. Veteran - check. REPUTATION as a good shooter no matter what reality is - check. Thats 30mpg for him right there. That alone would have you crying for Phillips head after about 3 weeks. And God help you if he brings Derek Fisher and Luke Walton with him. God help you son.

[HarlemHeat37]

Picc is spot-on here..as I said, coaching is very overrated when it comes to positive gains..

Phil Jackson is a good coach, but he isn't winning shit without the talent that he has..

[Obstructed_View]

Picc is spot-on here..as I said, coaching is very overrated when it comes to positive gains.

Not for negative ones, though. Pop has cost the team wins because he meddles, puts together bizarre lineups and develops grudges against individual players. Jackson lets his players play, which is why he's accused of frontrunning. At some point you have to stop trying to be so clever, especially when your team has talent.

[ShoogarBear]

If coaching is so overrated, then why did a Dallas team with Finley in his prime plus three years worth of future MVPs never get very far? Why did a Phoenix team with more talent EVERY YEAR than the Spurs get their asses whipped EVERY YEAR?

Phil had the talent, sure, but name the other coaches who would have won with those Laker teams. Pop wouldn't have had the first idea what to do with that circus.

If Pop and Phil traded teams at the beginning of the season, the odds would be 50-50 on the Spurs winning the West.

[Spurminator]

You can't win without talent, but you don't win TEN RINGS unless you're a really great coach. Phil had a huge hand in making Shaq, Jordan and Kobe who they are.

[picc84]

If coaching is so overrated, then why did a Dallas team with Finley in his prime plus three years worth of future MVPs never get very far? Why did a Phoenix team with more talent EVERY YEAR than the Spurs get their asses whipped EVERY YEAR?

Phil had the talent, sure, but name the other coaches who would have won with those Laker teams. Pop wouldn't have had the first idea what to do with that circus.

If Pop and Phil traded teams at the beginning of the season, the odds would be 50-50 on the Spurs winning the West.

Coaching isn't that overrated. Phillip Jackson is.

Don't get me wrong, Phillip is one of the best coaches in the league today. But if you think he is SO GOOD that you could give him this Spurs team and watch them go through the west than booooooy have you Spurs fans been taken for a ride. We almost lost to the corpse of the Houston fucking Rockets last year. Why? Because Rick Adelman put his coaching foot so far up Phillips ass he was coughing up bunions.

If all it takes for Pop to win a title is a prime Tim and a few role players, there's no doubt in my mind he'd take Shaq and Kobe to 3 championships. As far as X's and O's go, Pop blows Phillip out of the fucking water. All that personality handling crap is bullshit. Phillip's lazy ass basically gave them a few books and asked nicely for them to not kill each other and that was it. People act like he hypnotized the two of them, when both of them were already smart and good enough to know trying to kill each other ON THE COURT was self-destructive. .

[poop]

Was this actually a debate?

its funny i was pinked last season following a thread i posted on Pj being better than Pop and now heres the site mod and owner saying the same thing.

i wish i would have chosen a standard generic spurs-star-themed name and i probably wouldnt have got so much poop from people

[poop]

bottom line, is if Pop had been coaching the Lakers bynum would have never been developed (mahinmi) and s.brown would be perma-dleagued (hairston), and luke walton would still be getting 30 mins a game (aka finleybonner).

if Pj was in charge of this team, we at least push the series against dallas last year, and this year we are solidly 2-3 in the west.

[cd98]

Phil Jackson is a way better coach than Pop. Not even close. With 10 championships and time to get more, there is no coach even close to accomplishing what Phil has done.

Now Pop has more class than Jackson. But Jackson is better top to bottom. He gives his players confidence and gets the most out of the average guys on the roster when garnering the respect of the superstars he coaches.

I like Pop the person better, but I'd take Phil as coach any day. This Spurs team would be much better and more confident with Jackson.