Brutally Honest Truths

[timvp]

Before the Lakers game, I had the Spurs at about a 1-in-200 longshot at winning the NBA championship. After the Lakers forcibly took advantage of the Spurs without Kobe and Bynum, I'm going to lower those chances to zero. For the first time in the Tim Duncan Era, I'm watching a healthy team with absolutely no chance of winning a championship. I still think they will make the playoffs but the chances of a fifth title isn't slim ... it's none.

-You can't fault Tim Duncan's effort. But the reality is that he's no longer in a tier by himself. He used to easily be the best bigman in the game. Now he's in the same tier as players like Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. It is painful to admit it ... but it's sadly the truth. Wear and tear has allowed the pack to catch up to him.

-Manu Ginobili's normal gait has never returned since his surgery following the Olympics. His run is more like a fast waddle. He's lost at least one step, is a streak shooter, struggles to defend in one-on-one situations and just isn't as dangerous as he was prior to March of 2008. He's gone from a damn good NBA player to a damn good bench player.

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.

-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter.

-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination.

-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play.

-Matt Bonner isn't going to regain his pre-injury level of play this season. He's a rhythm and confidence player who is playing with neither rhythm nor confidence. He might as well go start running the hills in New Hampshire now to get ready for next season.

-He had his moments but Roger Mason, Jr.'s run as a Spur is over. Pop doesn't like him anymore. He can't play well without quality minutes. The question is just whether or not the Spurs trade him now or let him walk after the season.

-Michael Finley's NBA career should have been over at least two seasons ago. I'll give him credit ... the guy tries hard and is at times the team's most physical player, but he's over the hill, all the way onto the other side and walking in quicksand.

-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.

-I feel for you, Peter Holt. You gave the Spurs and Spurs fans what they wanted when you opened your wallet to spend millions in an effort to get one last championship during the Tim Duncan Era. Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

[Chomag]

Oh wow, wasn't expecting this from you. Very well thought of views on everything though.

[slick'81]

good points its tough to admit but theres no way we win a title at this rate its not even plausible

[objective]

If it makes you guys feel better . . .

At least you didn't put money down in Vegas on the Spurs before the season. :depressed

[Spursfanfromafar]

Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

Count me in understanding the failure of the stimulus program as well.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Well said timvp...! :toast

[SequSpur]

Agree 100%, but I did think Finley had a few moments in last years playoffs..he hit a few key shots...

It's painful to watch..it's time to recognize and quit fighting it. Time for a change.

Vinsanity.

:toast

[timtonymanu]

i agree with you, timvp.

i expect at most a first round exit. this is the worst year we got out of everyone. Our Big 3 has been reduced to role players. We no longer have a superstar that can take over. Our role players also get scared in big games. Players like Horry, Bowen, and Barry were always different makers because they show up in big games. Hill, Finley, Mason, Bogans, and Bonner only look confident against shitty teams and that is sad.

[Mr Bones]

Timvp meltdown!

[DAF86]

You were too kind to Pop. I still think this team can be the second best team in the west with a coach that possesses a common sense.

[slayermin]

Sad day to be a Spurs fan. This one hurt.

[EP Money Man]

-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.



:lmao

[mexicanjunior]

I'm glad you've finally come to admit what many of us had been saying for months...now the healing can begin.

[anonoftheinternets]

good points, maybe pop should step aside like dunlevy and move to FO ... its gotten stale ...

[Kori Ellis]

What a drama queen :married:

[Sean Cagney]

typical newbie post...rambling. Where is Kori to clean this up?

Newbie or not alot of that is true, we are not going to win a thing with this team, it's that simple. Some fans need to just relax and see it is what it is now.

[xellos88330]

I feel you timvp. This is complete bullshit that I am having to watch over and over. Small ball lineups are not going to get you past a team like the Lakers.

[Fpoonsie]

:depressed

[DesignatedT]

why i agree to some extent with all your points i still believe that a deal by the deadline can rejuvinate this team. the whole locker room mentality needs to change and a trade bringing in new blood and players that are looking to play hard, physical and want to win could do that,

im not giving up just yet.

[HarlemHeat37]

I disagree about Holt..this team won him multiple titles without a high payroll, it was his obligation to do this IMO..

The front office fucked up a long time ago..it made sense to surround the big 3 with old veterans when the big 3 itself was young, but now that they got older, it only made sense to surround them with younger/more athletic players..the FO has failed to do this..

It wouldn't have won us a title, but it would have made us more competitive..

[phxspurfan]

I agree with pretty much all the points in this article. You can see them play out when you watch the games. Pop doesn't even yell at RJ anymore.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop isn't putting this team in it's best position to win games. His decisions in this game were mind boggling.

Trade Jefferson for expirings. Trade Mason to a contender for their 1st round pick and an expiring who is worthless.

Trade Manu to the Cavs and let him help LeBron beat the Lakers. Ask them for Big Z back, JJ hickson and their 1st rounder.

Go into the off-season under the cap by 20 million. Go after Bosh. Bring over Splitter and use your 3 first round picks wisely.

The End. It was fun guys. Hell of a ride.

[Death In June]

You were too kind to Pop..

[hommeaetage]

why i agree to some extent with all your points i still believe that a deal by the deadline can rejuvinate this team. the whole locker room mentality needs to change and a trade bringing in new blood and players that are looking to play hard, physical and want to win could do that,

im not giving up just yet.

Good luck!

[slick'81]

homless version of bowen is being to nice

[Stringer_Bell]

So what you're saying is...we're are a season away from being the Detroit Pistons? FUCK!!!!

My first post on this forum was so hopeful, even if it was after we lost in the playoffs. I saw Timmy never giving up, even at the end and it stuck with me. There must be a way, some way to at least get us in a position where we aren't a total mess...let Timmy throw his punches, let Manu leave with dignity rather than just quietly in the off season! LET IT ALL BE FOR SOMETHING! There are 10 days left to make a change, right? If we're losing the house, let's throw a fuckin party and wake the neighbors. :toast

:flag::flag::flag:

[sabar]

If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

I'm feeling that this is pretty much a 99% possibility at this point. There's a point where you have to cut your losses. A championship is a pipe dream at this point. Holt needs the team to make the playoffs this year and next, nothing more. To that end, the chances of trading for any contract past next year is a very long shot, and hence the chances of getting any real talent to compete is pretty much not going to happen.

At least that's my view.

Spursfan needs to start to root for the playoffs instead of going all-in for a championship. I hope we make the playoffs these next couple years, because we won't see them for a long time after that. All these threads to tank and such are retarded. We're going to have YEARS of tanking after TD is gone.

Enjoy what you have while you can.

[newacc]

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.


This might be the most overlooked contributing factor to the Spurs being a slightly above average team. Parker has gone from a superstar last season to a good player this season. It's damning for any team to lose a top 10 player in the league.

[roycrikside]

Before the Lakers game, I had the Spurs at about a 1-in-200 longshot at winning the NBA championship. After the Lakers forcibly took advantage of the Spurs without Kobe and Bynum, I'm going to lower those chances to zero. For the first time in the Tim Duncan Era, I'm watching a healthy team with absolutely no chance of winning a championship. I still think they will make the playoffs but the chances of a fifth title isn't slim ... it's none.

-You can't fault Tim Duncan's effort. But the reality is that he's no longer in a tier by himself. He used to easily be the best bigman in the game. Now he's in the same tier as players like Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. It is painful to admit it ... but it's sadly the truth. Wear and tear has allowed the pack to catch up to him.

-Manu Ginobili's normal gait has never returned since his surgery following the Olympics. His run is more like a fast waddle. He's lost at least one step, is a streak shooter, struggles to defend in one-on-one situations and just isn't as dangerous as he was prior to March of 2008. He's gone from a damn good NBA player to a damn good bench player.

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.

-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter.

-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination.

-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play.

-Matt Bonner isn't going to regain his pre-injury level of play this season. He's a rhythm and confidence player who is playing with neither rhythm nor confidence. He might as well go start running the hills in New Hampshire now to get ready for next season.

-He had his moments but Roger Mason, Jr.'s run as a Spur is over. Pop doesn't like him anymore. He can't play well without quality minutes. The question is just whether or not the Spurs trade him now or let him walk after the season.

-Michael Finley's NBA career should have been over at least two seasons ago. I'll give him credit ... the guy tries hard and is at times the team's most physical player, but he's over the hill, all the way onto the other side and walking in quicksand.

-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.

-I feel for you, Peter Holt. You gave the Spurs and Spurs fans what they wanted when you opened your wallet to spend millions in an effort to get one last championship during the Tim Duncan Era. Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

my rant was way funnier.

[ElNono]

You were too kind to Pop. I still think this team can be the second best team in the west with a coach that possesses a common sense.

This.

Otherwise I agree pretty much with everything. Maybe you have more faith in Bonner than I do, but the rest looks about right...

We're just simply back to being an slightly above average team, like in the Pre TD era

[Chomag]

I disagree about Holt..this team won him multiple titles without a high payroll, it was his obligation to do this IMO..

The front office fucked up a long time ago..it made sense to surround the big 3 with old veterans when the big 3 itself was young, but now that they got older, it only made sense to surround them with younger/more athletic players..the FO has failed to do this..

It wouldn't have won us a title, but it would have made us more competitive..

Yep! then the Big 3 were the youth. Now the big 3 are the old vets.

[ShoogarBear]

The TNT announcers did have one good point: the lack of a vocal player like a Mario or AJ to step up and whip some asses into shape is just killing the Spurs.

And I'm still saying there's a 30% (and rising) chance they don't make the playoffs.

[mexicanjunior]

Enjoy what you have while you can.

No thanks...give me the lottery balls and the chance to pair the big 3 with a lottery player than wasting time with first round sweeps...

[Thompson]

So timvp... do we rebuild? Some say all teams go through a few bad years, as we would eventually if we keep Duncan, Manu etc. until the end; if we trade them before the end, though (Duncan only if he is willing) we might reduce the number of years the Spurs spend wandering in the wilderness.

As I said in another thread, I think they should go one more year (see if Splitter and RJ's expiring can swing one more potential run), and if it seems to be failing, see if Duncan wants to go to a contender for many, many draft picks.

[SenorSpur]

Agree with every word.

Allow me to pile on by criticizing Pop for failing to develop a young nucleus of bench players. The manner in which the Spurs have handled Ian Mahinmi is especially disturbing. The game against the Fakers was yet another remider as to how poor this team is along the frontline. The Fakers badly exposed the Spurs lack of length, shotblocking and athleticism along the frontline. Meanwhile the most athletic big on the Spurs roster continues to rot away in street clothes.. I don't know what Ian has, but I do not trust or believe the guy can't play simply because Pop refuses to play him.

This isn't the only example of Pop failing to develop a young players that could've easily provided talent relief. This is just merely the latest. Failing to identify and grow a young SF would've prevented having to waste money on RJ's sorry ass. Again, I blame Pop for all of this.

Pop has been so preoccupied with the "right now" that he's ignored the future. Outside of Hill and Blair, Pop has attached himself to a roster of old players, who are literally out of gas, injured or both. Now he's reaping the consequences and we're all witnesses.

[z0sa]

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.


The most brutally honest truth of them all. And I agree 95% with the rest of your truths. We thought this team had untapped potential and Pop just needed time to get the results required. There's a lot to swallow right now for spurfan.

That said, I have to disagree with dropping the faith before we're even to the all-star break or trade deadline. Miracles have happened before.

[SequSpur]

There was a game awhile back when the Spurs were killed on the boards...I thought Pop learned his lesson then...I guess not. I don't get it.

[ElNono]

The TNT announcers did have one good point: the lack of a vocal player like a Mario or AJ to step up and whip some asses into shape is just killing the Spurs.

And I'm still saying there's a 30% (and rising) chance they don't make the playoffs.

We have vocal guys, they just don't do it for the camera. Also Pop used to be the alpha male top dog screaming at everybody. He just lost his fire.

[Chomag]

Right now this team better make changes and not ride out the rest of Tims career. PLEASE FO DON"T WASTE THE END OF TIMMYS CAREER! At least keep trying to reach that championship goal be it trade or watever just do what it takes to get it done.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, piling on the Mahinmi thing. It's one thing to determine that somebody can't play. It's another to determine they can't play when YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THEM.

How can you look at Mahinmi's career stats versus Matt Bonner's and determine that one deserves a few minutes every night and one should never play?

[Chomag]

The most brutally honest truth of them all. And I agree 95% with the rest of your truths. We thought this team had untapped potential and Pop just needed time to get the results required. There's a lot to swallow right now for spurfan.

That said, I have to disagree with dropping the faith before we're even to the all-star break or trade deadline. Miracles have happened before.

But at least we all can agree that Spurs do need a "Miracle"

[SequSpur]

Man in Black asked me to throw this out there...Timvp..if Pop is incapable of leading this team then who is?

[objective]

The David Lynch version of Paul Atreides could scream at the guys all game long, it just won't turn back the hands of time, heal nagging injuries, instill toughness in softies, or turn 6'7" swingmen into power forwards.

[Budkin]

Props to timvp for a fantastically sobering and realistic post.

[SequSpur]

Yeah, piling on the Mahinmi thing. It's one thing to determine that somebody can't play. It's another to determine they can't play when YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THEM.

How can you look at Mahinmi's career stats versus Matt Bonner's and determine that one deserves a few minutes every night and one should never play?

Ian played in one game and had better stats than any other Spur in the history of the organization not named David Robinson.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm siding with a combined version of Sabar and Manu4Tres's posts here..

I don't want to tank since I think it's pointless(the odds of getting the #1 pick in 3 straight lotteries is pretty much impossible + while Wall is a great prospect, he's not Tim Duncan or Lebron James..by the time he potentially becomes a superstar, Duncan and Parker will be done)..I'd rather just accept what we have, make the playoffs so we can see our big 3 perform together a few more times..

With that being said, I would still dump RJ and whoever else, and I would begin the youth movement..try to acquire a decent prospect and/or a 1st round pick in any trades..play the big 3 + Hill + Blair + Malik + Ian + any potential prospect we get in a trade and just live with what happens..title contender? absolutely not..threat to make the WCF? absolutely not..but just play, see what we have in our young guys, there's no harm in it at this point..

We'll have a better idea of what we have in on this team..it'll give the FO an easier assessment of what is needed in the off-season, and hopefully we can bring in Splitter..

[silverblk mystix]

The biggest problem I see...is that Pop has TOO MUCH POWER...when Pop was ON---this was a reassuring thing...to have a coach,GM,LEADER,talent evaluator,prez,etc
not even reporters summoned up the courage to question his moves,decisions,plays,rotations,etc...

but now this has become a problem, because he has really hurt this team for the last two seasons---but there is no-one there to put him to the fire--so-to speak,

Peter Holt is an awesome owner to not interfere with the coaching staff---but now---it also becomes a bad thing because he will undoubtedly just keep faith in Pop...

it becomes difficult because there is no-one to intervene and try to right the ship...

at one time I thought Tim or Tony or Manu could do some of this...but obviously the fact that ALL three are in the same mold (respectful team players and very,very professional) this won't happen either...

so we are stuck with a coach who was once great, but appears to have lost his touch and will be the main factor in the demise of a once great team.

[objective]

Ian played in one game and had better stats than any other Spur in the history of the organization not named David Robinson.

If Ian was 6'7" and about 32, 33 . . . We'd be in business boys!

[ShoogarBear]

If Ian was 6'7" and about 32, 33 . . . We'd be in business boys!

:lol . . . and coming off an injury.

[slick'81]

I'm siding with Sabar and Manu4Tres together here..

I don't want to tank since I think it's pointless(the odds of getting the #1 pick in 3 straight lotteries is pretty much impossible + while Wall is a great prospect, he's not Tim Duncan or Lebron James..by the time he potentially becomes a superstar, Duncan and Parker will be done)..I'd rather just accept what we have, make the playoffs so we can see our big 3 perform together a few more times..

With that being said, I would still dump RJ and whoever else, and I would begin the youth movement..try to acquire a decent prospect in any trades..play the big 3 + Hill + Blair + Malik + Ian and just live with what happens..title contender? absolutely not..threat to make the WCF? absolutely not..but just play, see what we have in our young guys, there's no harm in it at this point..


if your gonna lose might as well and give that guy in your avatar some run too

[holcs50]

-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.



I agree with most of your assessment and just wanted to focus on Dickhead and a few other points. I've watched dick (and played with him a few times!! hehe...but no really i did play with him while at UA) a lot throughout his career and like timvp has pointed out he has resorted back to his lackadaisical ways. He looks like there's absolutely not a bone in his body with energy, he doesn't even look for the ball, and consistently stands around the 3 point line not budging. To go on top of that it seems he makes stupid ass defensive plays over and over-piling up stupid fouls just so people notice he's even on the court. His confidence is low and he is pouting...thus leading to another huge problem timvp pointed out

Look how many players on the spurs are confidence players...a lot! Parker, ginobili, jefferson, hill....that's all your good guards...mason also but mason just sucks. There is no chemistry now and everyone is down, ginobili seems to be shaking his off a little but I don't see jeff turning it around. Having that many players that are pouty and get down on themselves is a problem and a reason why this team continues not to glue.

Another team observation is there is no emotion out there. No one is communicating, no one is smiling, no one is yelling, no one is even looking energetic or interested. This team sorely needs a player that will bring some "swagger", some fun, some emotions to this team. Hating myself for bring Stephen Jackson up again but a player like him is exactly something the spurs need. A player to stir the pot, a player who doesn't get all sad and depressed when not playing up to par, a player that will keep firing and stay energetic even when having the bad games. Too bad i don't think we can get someone like that in a trade this year.

The bright side if there is any to me is Dicks contract will become an expiring during the season next year and we very well could find a team who wants a salary dump and pick up a guy that will bring some fire to the team. But i agree this team is going nowhere this year-too many "truths" to overcome.

[SenorSpur]

The biggest problem I see...is that Pop has TOO MUCH POWER...when Pop was ON---this was a reassuring thing...to have a coach,GM,LEADER,talent evaluator,prez,etc
not even reporters summoned up the courage to question his moves,decisions,plays,rotations,etc...

but now this has become a problem, because he has really hurt this team for the last two seasons---but there is no-one there to put him to the fire--so-to speak,

I never thought of this, but it's a good point. With Pop having so much organizational control, where are the checks & balances? Who overrules Pop if it's believes his decisions are shortsighted, when it comes to personnel?

I know Holt leaves most personnel decisions to Pop and RC, but after this RJ debacle, both of these guys now have chinks in their armor. They've not made many bad decisions, but this one is, by far, the worst of the bunch.

Also, I'd wanna know why they elected not to pickup the option of the most athletic big on the roster? And even more, why is the former 1st round pick not playing at all?

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

Even if we were to make a trade this year, there's not enough time to work the person in and realistically contend for this years title. Maybe if it was Lebron...and I'm serious. It would take that kind of player to give this team any hope

[vander]

Gasol > Duncan

Phil >>>>>> Pop

[Duncan21kid]

not you too timvp
BELIEVE

[objective]

There's checks & balances in the front office, and everyone has a role to fill.

Pop is there to make sure Finley and Bonner get new contracts. RC is there to degrade Scola. And KGB Lindsey is there to make sure Scola goes to his old team.

[SenorSpur]

Spursfan needs to start to root for the playoffs instead of going all-in for a championship.

Uh no. Spurfan needs to start rooting for the draft lottery. And not because we're seeking the possibility of a number one pick. No. The draft if the quickest and cheapest way to start getting better, if you make good decisions. Stockpiling picks would really help, but that's probably out of the question.

Making the playoffs as 7th or 8th seeds and the accompanying first round exits are just keeping this roster on life support. If you want to rebuild on the fly, the draft, and an occasional key free agent, is the best approach.

[Vic Petro]

It might be time to tank another season.

[Russ]

For the first time since '02 the Spurs are not title contenders.

That's the easy part.

The hard part for the Spurs is what to do next.

[rayray2k8]

Ahhhh.. It was a good run.
I will always remember the years of Duncan in his prime.
Now we'll watch Pop run this team to the ground.

[MaNu4Tres]

This team ain't winning anything. And I don't see a realistic move that would get us past the 2nd round.

Mine as well get something for Manu while we can.

Not to mention just get back expirings for Jefferson.

I'd even look into trading McDyess to a contender for expirings and a 1st rounder.

Start rebuilding now.

If we wait to long, the longer the rebuilding process would be.

Maybe I'm overreacting but I think it's best to pull the plug and get as many first rounders we can get and start clearing space up for next off-season.

[SenorSpur]

For the first time since '02 the Spurs are not title contenders.

That's the easy part.

The hard part for the Spurs is what to do next.

Personally, I think the hard part is to get the FO to "get over themselves" and their much-publicized pristine track record, long enough for them to realize that they need to make some drastic personnel decisions.

First up, is to start divorcing themselves from their "vets only" philosophy,

[timtonymanu]

I wonder how empty this forum will be when the Spurs rebuild. No offense to Pistons fans, but I hope its not like their forum.

[Baseline]

I think there are lots of coaches out there who could coach the talent on this team to a 2nd or 3rd in the West. There's really no excuse for a team this healthy, with this much talent, and payroll, to be lower than 3rd.

But that coach just isn't going to be Popovich. He's getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league this year. His ragaholic disciplinarian routine is tired and old and nonsensical in the first place. I'll tell you what his legacy should be...that of the luckiest coach in the history of the league.

The Spurs wilt too often and play with no confidence much of the time. That's because Popovich's style is to beat on them and degrade them -- everybody except for Finley and Bogans, neither of whon have an ounce of talent left, and arguably shouldn't be in the league.

And then he does things like play smallball, which takes them out of games they could win. Tonight against the Lakers, we were cutting the lead in the 4th, trying ot make arun. And who doe he put in the game...Bogans. Who on the Lakers is slow enough for Bogans to guard besides Fisher?

We could have cut the lead down to five, as Doug Collins said, if the three-point shot Parker's pass set up in the corner had fallen. Who took that shot? Bogans. As if that's ever going to go in. Bogans never should have been on the floor. If any other 2 or 3 on the team takes that shot, it has a better chance of going in.

Just another example of how Pop is making this team worse, not better. Timvp very accurately stated that fact in his excellent original post.

[MaNu4Tres]

I wonder how empty this forum will be when the Spurs rebuild. No offense to Pistons fans, but I hope its not like their forum.

Joe Dumars did a horrible job in his rebuilding. He overpaid Ben Gordan, gave an old veteran a new contract worth 60 million. Traded their best player and McDyess for Iverson straight up ( No assets for the future). He got no assets for the future in any moves he made.

Spurs would be wise to start cutting their losses now and getting picks for Manu and McDyess most specifically. Not to mention getting expirings for Richard Jefferson. That would speed up the rebuilding process by a huge margin for the Spurs.

[J_Paco]

I wonder how empty this forum will be when the Spurs rebuild. No offense to Pistons fans, but I hope its not like their forum.

Hey, I'll still be around lurking or posting.

[ulosturedge]

The brutal honest truth is we suck.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm blaming Pop for a lot too, but we really don't have the talent to compete..people need to stop saying this..

Parker and Ginobili have been inconsistent all year..while Tony will show flashes on a semi-consistent basis, Manu only brings it out once in a while..it's safe to say that Manu is no longer an all-star caliber player..

Jefferson is an average player..

This team has too many old players and no athletes that get court time..

We have only 1 shot blocker and he's 33 years old..our other bigs have serious flaws..

We don't have any perimeter stoppers..

Where is all this talent that some people speak of?..

[siraulo23]

This is a sad, sad day

At least I might be able to enjoy other nba games more

[SenorSpur]

Joe Dumars did a horrible job in his rebuilding. He overpaid Ben Gordan, gave an old veteran a new contract worth 60 million. Traded their best player and McDyess for Iverson straight up ( No assets for the future). He got no assets for the future in any moves he made.

Spurs would be wise to start cutting their losses now and getting picks for Manu and McDyess most specifically. Not to mention getting expirings for Richard Jefferson. That would speed up the rebuilding process by a huge margin for the Spurs.

I agree with you. However the problem is most teams aren't willing to part with picks. Most sellers will be looking to get rid of bad salaried players too, while looking to get youngsters in return.

[timtonymanu]

I hope Atlanta or Orlando comes out of the East.

And Denver comes out of the West.

I cant stomach Shaq or Kobe getting a 5th ring. I dont want Boston to win again cause KG will go in full douchebag mode again. Also Dallas cause I enjoy their winless franchise.

[MaNu4Tres]

I agree with you. However the problem is most teams aren't willing to part with picks. Most sellers will be looking to get rid of bad salaried players too, while looking to get youngsters in return.


Send Manu and Theo Ratliff to Cleveland for Big Z's expiring contract, JJ Hickson and a 1st round pick.

Send McDyess to Boston for Scalabrine expiring/ Sheldon Williams expiring and their 1st round pick

Trade Jefferson and Mason to Clippers for Camby's expiring and Rasual Butler's expiring.

Tell Duncan to go to Virgin Islands. Tell Parker to go lay low with Eva. Tell the media they broke their foot and would be out for the rest of the year.

Tank the rest of the season.

Use our new 3 first round picks wisely.

Bring Splitter over.

Go after Bosh with the 20 million of cap space we have.



What do you think?


Contenders would part with picks.

[SenorSpur]

Contenders would part with picks.

If they can get it done, it certainly doesn't hurt to ask.

Draft picks, and in turn young, talented players, are just the antidote this aging franchise needs. Call it rebuilding, reloading or whatever, the time has come.

All the losses the Spurs have stockpiled against upper-echelon teams means they're starting that long walk on the "treadmill of mediocrity." A place you don't want to be.

[TheSpursFNRule]

I agree with AJ and Ellie being a vocal leaders, yes it truly does help and I would feel much more comfortable with losing close games if there was a guy like Mario or AJ around to be loud and get people motivated in that way. The thing is we won 3 championships without guys like that. Well maybe 2 without guys like that, im sure SJax fired some people up. I don't think that was a main problem until now. Someone needs to yell at this team and get their fucking heads straight.

[neboat]

I don't know what the hell POP is doing... He had Blair going up against a lineup of Gasol, Artest, and Odom? WTF... Why didn't POP throw Ratliff out against Pau for a few mins? Why the hell did you sign Ratliff if you aren't even going to play him against bigger lineups? POP's strategy against a big lineup is to play nanoball????

For a guy that keeps on experimenting lineups, he never tries a bigger lineup...he only experiments small and nano lineups...it's really baffling!!

[024]

time to rebuild as quickly as possible. hopefully by the time the spurs are done, they can squeeze out one final championship for duncan's final year. jefferson's contract will be expiring next year so it will be a huge asset. get some experience for hill and blair, bring splitter over, lowball ginobili to a $5-6 million contract, keep parker healthy, use jefferson's expiring or mcdyess's partially guaranteed contract to get a star level player, bring in a younger coach, and win again in 2 years.

tanking next season is a good idea as well. might be too obvious though.

[objective]

not much to tank for guys, at least as far as still contending in the future with Duncan.

The work stoppage coming in 2011 is going to be brutal and could cost an entire season. Even if the resulting deal is similar with regards to being able to sign new players, how good do you expect Duncan to look 24 months from now?

Unless something big and ridiculous happens before the deadline . . . the era is over. It's just time for the long goodbye.

[SenorSpur]

not much to tank for guys, at least as far as still contending in the future with Duncan.

The work stoppage coming in 2011 is going to be brutal and could cost an entire season. Even if the resulting deal is similar with regards to being able to sign new players, how good do you expect Duncan to look 24 months from now?

Unless something big and ridiculous happens before the deadline . . . the era is over. It's just time for the long goodbye.

A good point. Because even a lockout will not stop the aging process of these players. In fact, it will only compound matters.

[baseline bum]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/act_luis_scola.jpg

There lies the first blow in the death of the Spurs

[HoopsCzar]

Before the Lakers game, I had the Spurs at about a 1-in-200 longshot at winning the NBA championship. After the Lakers forcibly took advantage of the Spurs without Kobe and Bynum, I'm going to lower those chances to zero. For the first time in the Tim Duncan Era, I'm watching a healthy team with absolutely no chance of winning a championship. I still think they will make the playoffs but the chances of a fifth title isn't slim ... it's none.

-You can't fault Tim Duncan's effort. But the reality is that he's no longer in a tier by himself. He used to easily be the best bigman in the game. Now he's in the same tier as players like Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. It is painful to admit it ... but it's sadly the truth. Wear and tear has allowed the pack to catch up to him.

-Manu Ginobili's normal gait has never returned since his surgery following the Olympics. His run is more like a fast waddle. He's lost at least one step, is a streak shooter, struggles to defend in one-on-one situations and just isn't as dangerous as he was prior to March of 2008. He's gone from a damn good NBA player to a damn good bench player.

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.

-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter.

-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination.

-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play.

-Matt Bonner isn't going to regain his pre-injury level of play this season. He's a rhythm and confidence player who is playing with neither rhythm nor confidence. He might as well go start running the hills in New Hampshire now to get ready for next season.

-He had his moments but Roger Mason, Jr.'s run as a Spur is over. Pop doesn't like him anymore. He can't play well without quality minutes. The question is just whether or not the Spurs trade him now or let him walk after the season.

-Michael Finley's NBA career should have been over at least two seasons ago. I'll give him credit ... the guy tries hard and is at times the team's most physical player, but he's over the hill, all the way onto the other side and walking in quicksand.

-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.

-I feel for you, Peter Holt. You gave the Spurs and Spurs fans what they wanted when you opened your wallet to spend millions in an effort to get one last championship during the Tim Duncan Era. Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.


Very interesting Tim,..

However, in regards to the owner abandoning the price tag isn't the problem. The core of this spurs team is in fact still NBA championship capable. The facts of the matter is he needs to look at Popovich and Buford as those out of date and or touch.

Noway should they'd missed the look on how vital a post big to play off / with Duncan is while spending all that money. To include having lost all perspective on how much help a role playing shooter would bolster this team.

They had Drew Gooden in the fold and Popovich ran him to Dallas. Now Duncan plays the post all but alone and the rest of the team shows the effects. Then they { Pop and Buford } went out and acquired players that would require an entirely different manner of attack than the core is suited for,..mistakes that cost that much requires somebody getting fired.

I mean there's no question that Tim Duncan is the rock, anchor, pillar, heart, soul and best player on this team. Yet in assembling this roster they did nothing to show they understood that.

Believe it or not it was quiet easily fixable before picking up the options on a couple players and not acquiring available free agent talent to turn this thing around. Now in this economy nobody's going to jump at picking up the contracts of Jefferson, McDyess, Finley, Mason nor any groundswell to take Bonner, Hairston, Bogans nor Mahinmi either,..big problem.

It's clear that teams acquire and keep players that their coach can mesh with. But in the manner of how stringent that coach can be it limits the teams chances of success. With free agency, the money crunch and getting the best out of an aging core the coach has to think outside of his temperamental comfort zone box,..Pop can't do it and the needed players have looked the other way.

Thus as I see it from whats been shown, Is the high stakes NBA game has passed Popovich and Buford by via philosophical differences. Of which their reliance upon Duncan and Pop's inability to attract / keep free agents is costing too much. As GM had those players and price tags been mention on my watch they'd have gotten nixed because they

[024]

spurs shouldn't do anything drastic before the trade deadline like take back a long contract of a decent player. the last thing they want to do is panic and pull a pistons. that team will be stuck in mediocrity for some time. i doubt small fixes will turn this team into a championship team because the problem lies within the big 3. they just aren't big anymore. now that the spurs know they can't win, they should be patient and hopefully speed up the rebuilding process by waiting for the right opportunity to come along. rather than destroying the franchise through a panic move (suns), they should be patient like the rockets.

[objective]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/act_luis_scola.jpg

There lies the first blow in the death of the Spurs

It's 100% true, and people that had a clue could see it at the time.

You're a team that doesn't spend outrageous amounts of money, you're not a big time market, and there aren't other teams willing to collude with you and gift you all-star players.

You can't afford to pass up youthful legit NBA rotation players and possible starters on relatively cheap contracts just out of spite or foolishness.

You . . . just . . . can't. And not have it haunt you.

There was a legit PF right there in their laps. They had his rights. They had a key piece to their own future in their hands. And they blew it.

It isn't the last blow that shatters a dynasty, but all the blows that came before it. :depressed

[neboat]

It isn't the last blow that shatters a dynasty, but all the blows that came before it. :depressed


ouch.....that hurts :depressed

Should have this quote framed up at Pop's office

[cdcast]

Would RJ, Manu, Splitter rights, and a 1st rd. pick be enough
to get Iggy/ Dalembert?

They then trade their expirings for a Salmons/Thomas or
Sessions/ Gomes type trade?

The good news for Spurs there's alot of teams looking to
make moves.

[Allanon]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/act_luis_scola.jpg

There lies the first blow

Add in the fact that Lamar Odom usually struggles against him.

That's a brutally honest truth.

[JustinJDW]

I'll make the coffee and get the tissue boxes and we can all snuggle and cry about it on the couch together.

[Dro210]

Add in the fact that Lamar Odom usually struggles against him.

That's a brutally honest truth.

Haha, don't say that man.... it's bad enough already.

[Allanon]

Haha, don't say that man.... it's bad enough already.

:lol It's true, unfortunately.

Lamar's my favorite player but one of the main reasons why the Rockets took the Lakers 7 games last year was due to Odom losing the Scola matchup.

[Bruno]

To me, Spurs need to fix 3 things:

- The mental aspect. A lot of Spurs trouble are related to a lack of mental strength. Spurs were a strong and resilient team in the past and they need to go back at that state of mind. It's easy to say than this team need a psychological turning point. It could be a player only meeting, Holt talking to them or a crazy game but something has to happen.

- Pop needs to coach better. For the moment, he has refused to make choices when choices had to been made or he has made poor ones. He needs to figure it out how to use the team.

- A trade need to be done. It doesn't really need to be a big one if it's a smart one but Spurs don't have the roster to compete with other true contender.

If these 3 things are done, Spurs will be for real. If one isn't, Spurs aren't a contender.

[Slomo]

Before the Lakers game, ...

... If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.


What a drama queen :married:

:lol You guys are some of my favourite people. As long as you keep this forum, it will always be a place I like to visit daily and share thoughts and/or argue with friends.
And don't think you're getting rid of me just because the Spurs suck :D

Now to the subject at hand. I agree with pretty much everything and props for spelling out what most of us were thinking more and more as this season progressed.

The baffling thing in all of this to me is Pop. I have always had the highest respect for his methods and above all his intellect. Has he gone senile or has he realized the real situation way before us and this is his last - desperate - attempt at shaking things up? I know I'm grasping at straws, but how has CIA Pop - one of the smartest coaches of all times - gone to AARP Pop so quickly?


...

I cant stomach Shaq or Kobe getting a 5th ring. I dont want Boston to win again cause KG will go in full douchebag mode again. Also Dallas cause I enjoy their winless franchise.

:lol

Oh, and +1


...

It isn't the last blow that shatters a dynasty, but all the blows that came before it. :depressed

Ouch!

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

Sadly... I'm officially signing off on trading Ginobili and/or Parker.

[MannyIsGod]

-You can't fault Tim Duncan's effort. But the reality is that he's no longer in a tier by himself. He used to easily be the best bigman in the game. Now he's in the same tier as players like Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. It is painful to admit it ... but it's sadly the truth. Wear and tear has allowed the pack to catch up to him.
This has probably been true for several years now. There are reasons we thought this was more of Parkers team last year. A team with Duncan at this level is still capable of good things - including a championship team.



-Manu Ginobili's normal gait has never returned since his surgery following the Olympics. His run is more like a fast waddle. He's lost at least one step, is a streak shooter, struggles to defend in one-on-one situations and just isn't as dangerous as he was prior to March of 2008. He's gone from a damn good NBA player to a damn good bench player.
Yup. This is probably the area the Spurs have felt the biggest decline and this is what they will find the biggest to overcome. The big 3 is no more. Its the big two.



-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.
I think this is true as well, but I have hope that he actually will have something come playoff time. I think the competitive level rises in the playoff in most players and I think that would be good for Tony. On the flip side one has to wonder why he hasn't been able to muster that strength yet this season, of course.



-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.I don't get this dude. I know more running will help him offensively, but I just don't understand how George Hill is now better than Richard Jefferson.



-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter.
I'm not too sure this is true. He's played much better as of late and I'm not ready to sell him so short based on tonight. Its also hard to get a read on him when Pop goes to midget ball instead of actually sticking with him when he has a bad night. If Pop treated his bigs the way he treats Finley we might see them play out of of their funks.



-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination.
Pop set him up to fail tonight by making him the biggest guy on the court. Just hung him out to dry.



-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play.
I know we're blaming everything up to Global Warming on Pop but I wonder if this isn't his fault too. That being said, with the growth George Hill has made this year I've got nothing but love for him.



-Matt Bonner isn't going to regain his pre-injury level of play this season. He's a rhythm and confidence player who is playing with neither rhythm nor confidence. He might as well go start running the hills in New Hampshire now to get ready for next season.
Jury still out on this. Played well in the first half then got no minutes. Pretty hard to get in a rhythm while on the bench.



-He had his moments but Roger Mason, Jr.'s run as a Spur is over. Pop doesn't like him anymore. He can't play well without quality minutes. The question is just whether or not the Spurs trade him now or let him walk after the season.
Yup.



-Michael Finley's NBA career should have been over at least two seasons ago. I'll give him credit ... the guy tries hard and is at times the team's most physical player, but he's over the hill, all the way onto the other side and walking in quicksand.
Yup



-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.
Thats being generous. You know, if I told you in the summer after all the signings that Bogans would be playing this much you would probably know there was a problem. Playing this guy makes no fucking sense. Its Jacque Vaugn all over again.




-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.


I honestly think Pop is done as a coach. its amazing Sloan has lasted as long as he has but coaches never last even as long as Pop and remain effective without some sort of a change in scenery. Since I'm all but certain Pop will never coach another team, I would prefer him moving soley to a front office position and actually bringing in a coach.

Paging Jeff Van Gundy.



-I feel for you, Peter Holt. You gave the Spurs and Spurs fans what they wanted when you opened your wallet to spend millions in an effort to get one last championship during the Tim Duncan Era. Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.Maybe, but maybe not. The one good thing about RJ is that even if it fails this year you can almost certainly flip him next year for someone good. We'll see what TP and Tim have in the tank then.

[Rogue]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/act_luis_scola.jpg

There lies the first blow in the death of the Spurs
Scola was just traded at a time when Spurs were humped with quality players and a rookie wasn't expected to have the playing time despite his superb performances in FIBA games, while the Rockets at that time were struggling with an exigent need for a decent PF. Spurs just underrated this Argentinian international basketballer and Scola was only considered an equivalent piece of trash as Jakie Butler in that trade, which however turned out to be a horrible mistake soon later.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

BTW... Dennis Lindsey??? Has this guy had one single good move since he's been GM?

[Rogue]

I mean Spurs executed the scola trade on Scola's behalf more than on the purport of ridding a garbage contract, and Scola himself wasn't keen to put on the silver/black suit considering the Spurs rotation which was already too crowded at the position he plays. Pop should have viewed more videos of Scola games or at the very least enquired Manu about his argentinian teammates before making the final decision of trading him, but he didn't.

[SlovenianGuy]

In the past years at this time of the season everyone was talking about SPAM.

[Dro210]

BTW... Dennis Lindsey??? Has this guy had one single good move since he's been GM?

Nope!!!

[Capt Bringdown]

Well, it's been a great ride.

Even in the midst of greatness there's been some extremely bitter moments, turning points if you will. That's life I reckon. I guess as a fan you're constantly vacillating between being grateful and wanting more.

As for the future, I hope the NBA is more like the NFL. Parity, screw these dynasties.

[raspsa]

What a drama queen :married:

:lol

[007nites]

It seemed as if the boat just tipped over after this game. This franchise may never be the same ever again.

[007nites]

So what you're saying is...we're are a season away from being the Detroit Pistons? FUCK!!!!

My first post on this forum was so hopeful, even if it was after we lost in the playoffs. I saw Timmy never giving up, even at the end and it stuck with me. There must be a way, some way to at least get us in a position where we aren't a total mess...let Timmy throw his punches, let Manu leave with dignity rather than just quietly in the off season! LET IT ALL BE FOR SOMETHING! There are 10 days left to make a change, right? If we're losing the house, let's throw a fuckin party and wake the neighbors. :toast

:flag::flag::flag:

I say lets make a big trade involving Manu, RJ, and Splitter then let Duncan go all out playing 40 mins a game till the finals. If we don't win then rebuild.

[mountainballer]

the situation for the FO at this deadline is probably tougher than we can imagine.
while I don't think they are discussing to tank the season, they might very well admit that this last shot for a title (spending big for RJ and Dice) has failed and that from now on every move has to be done with the future (time past Tim) in mind.
this might also mean that they don't try to save the season, because they think that such a process is better started in the offseason.

on the other hand, the Spurs do have some assets to get something done, a desperation move, if they once more are willing to take back more money.
problem is, those moves almost never pay good dividends.
(I'm talking about something like all expirings for Dalembert, Jamison or Murphy for example. other teams would likely agree to such deals)

IMO the toughest question isn't about what to do with Manu, it's what to do with Tony.
TIMVP as most others blame Tony's weak season on his play for the French NT.
I think that's only half the truth!
yes, playing the summer didn't help to keep him frech, that for sure. but what if already happens, what some experts expected some time ago, when Tony looked to have made the step from good player to top tire franchise level.
fact is, no other player in this league has played so many NBA games, (and more important: NBA PO games) than Tony did till 27.
Tony just reached the nice number of 777 NBA games. I once read that 800 games might be the average turning point, when players start to show the wear, no matter how old they are.
Tony is a very very old 27.
and to make things worse, his major (probably only) superstar quality is his speed. if his speed is gone (this especially means that he can use his speed for a whole game and not only for a quarter) he will be a very average player.

Tony's trade value currently might be still high enough to get a top talent back (maybe plus a nice pick).
if the Spurs think about the future, this might be the best way. compared to this, the Manu question is almost secondary.

[mingus]

my last shred of hope for this team is that our guys aren't playing with a sense of urgency. their biggest "test" game so far this season was against LA in S.A. and they showed up and ripped them to shreds. they were hitting on all cylanders that night. yes, i know there were injuries, but that team that night looked pumped and ready to go, and i'm hoping that's the mindset that they carry into the playoffs.

[024]

spurs need a replacement all star for ginobili. better role players won't help. look at boston. they have a rising young point guard and a strong defensive post presence in perkins. their bench is solid yet none of it has prevented the fall of the celtics because their big 3 is broken beyond repair. it may have slowed down the decline of the celtics but they are trying to trade ray allen for a reason. they are getting old. they know their core is broken and even with such a good supporting cast of rondo, perkins, wallace, house, and tony allen can't prevent the inevitable decline.

[Manu-of-steel]

I believe the spurs problems cannot be fixed, unless pop takes a look at himself and ask what the hell he's done with the spurs team. They acquired Mcdyess to support timmy- he's not being utilized, especially now that he has shown flashes of his old (effective) self. Ian is also sitting on the bench, while the remains of fossilized finley is guarding big forward (odom). Duncan is old, but he can still be effective. Manu is old, but he's shown in the past few games that he's still capable of being that spark off the bench. Hill has continued to develop, and fast becoming an impact player for the spurs. Blair is a rookie who can give a team a boost in scoring and rebounding. TP can still be effective, though not as the TP last year. We have a good team, the problem is Pop still doesn't know how to harness and let this team work efficiently.

[Cherry]

Sadly... I'm officially signing off on trading Ginobili and/or Parker.

For who? (?)

Forget Manu´s trade. I started to think he wants to get out of here as FA.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm not too sure this is true. He's played much better as of late and I'm not ready to sell him so short based on tonight. Its also hard to get a read on him when Pop goes to midget ball instead of actually sticking with him when he has a bad night. If Pop treated his bigs the way he treats Finley we might see them play out of of their funks.


I agree with this. McDyess has shown more sustained flashes of what he could be contributing if he were getting consistent minutes. I'd like to see what would happen if Pop ensure that either he or Duncan were on the court at all times.

[kobyz]

i think now we need to take our chances and trade Manu for Amare, Amare will take care the offense and that will leave Tim to focus on being a defensive big.

[21_Blessings]

Not sure why you're blaming Pop for Richard Jefferson. He sucked last year in Milwaukee. He was the same dumb, scared, ineffective player. Which is why the Bucks gave him away for expirings.

[Danny.Zhu]

1000% agreed.

[bigfan]

Duncan is still damn good, Tony can be damn good (and needs to get his priorities straight) and sadly Manu is just good now. Hill and Blair have a future with the team (assuming Hill survives his recent dumbass photo escapades.) I thought I liked Mason and still think hes a good bench player, something has just not been clicking and its up to a good coach to diagnose the problem and fix it before the end of the season. Jefferson turns out to be a bust, sorry for Holt on this but sometimes shit happens. The rest of the team are either too old or just plain useless (including Ian).

[TheChillFactor]

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained..

"Ruined himself" is a little strong - I'm not worried about him long-term, he's just tired and overworked. I think he'll be fine next year.



-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio..

Does anyone besides me remember 2003 Game 6 vs. NJ when Ginobili poked the ball loose, RJ non-chalantly went back to get it, and Manu was already on the other side of him and got a dunk? One of my top 3 Spurs moments ever, and it perfectly illustrated to me the difference between a championship player and an average player. That half-ass mentality has come up again and again with RJ this season. You can't change it.



-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter..

I didn't think he was big enough and I thought he was too old. But he did get 10/10 last year so I thought maybe the FO knew something I didn't. 1/2 a season in though it's obvious this guy isn't the answer. It goes back to this team's (read: Pop's) mentality that they don't really need to improve, they just need to tweak the pieces. TD REALLY needs someone next to him that can defend the paint and rebound. TD REALLY needs someone next to him that can defend the paint and rebound...I'm not kidding!



-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination..

-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play..[/quote]

I love both of these guys but they are both "helpers". 7th and 8th guys, not starters. No EFFING WAY a team wins a title with either of these guys starting.



-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team..

I always thought Pop was really intelligent and humble but it seems like he's either stupid or egotistical about this small-ball stuff...also his insistence on getting guys that "have gotten over themselves" seems self-serving. Who cares if you have to roll your eyes at someone? Get a guy that can play! We won titles with guys that hadn't gotten over themselves - Stephen Jackson, Avery Johnson, etc.

We have these great character guys that can't do anything without Pop holding their hand out there...pathetic.

[DaBears]

Stop the bus, i watched the game last night against the Lakers, i saw no Signs Jefferson was even in the building.. He was MIA as he has been all year... i feel bad for Mason, cause the guy had everything going for him up to the last couple games when Pop decided to screw up the game by cutting his minutes... Maybe we should stop putting all the blame on the players and on the coach... To be quite honest i dont see POP out on the bench either, he is a shell of his fomrner self.. He looks like he has given up hope..... I sure hope someone from the front Office or anyone with decision making power reads SPURSTALK over the last couple months and heeds the advice and critism the fans are giving....

I believe in the SPURS but not this roster of under acheivers.....

[TheManFromAcme]

Heck, I am baffled with the Pop of late. What's up with him? Those line-up out there make absolutely no sense. This is way beyond his CIA claim. More KGB double-agent.

[DaBears]

As an basketball player and a competitor.. I see jefferson and it hurts, almost feel sympothy for the guy... he has no confidence in his game...... He probably should traded or this team should be disasembaled and rebuilt...I would be be ok with watching the Spurs losing if they had a bunch of young guys out there trying to proof they belong and getting use to each other... ie. Minnesota, Portand, Hawks........ Sure we would lose for a bite but you can see the light at the end of the tunnel... But in the process you never would question the competiveness of the team, same cannot be said with this team SA puts on the floor....

[igruex]

Pop should be in Pop's doghouse. This time, the rebuilding starts with him. When a coach is getting less than the average from several players you'd need to change the head and bring someone who can re-motivate your assets. This is not another case of an spoiled rookie, there are currently proven good players playing like not-even-bench-players.

[Walton Buys Off Me]

Not a typical timvp post but I can't disagree with anything said here.

Pop's refusal to stick with a rotation is the biggest problem IMO.

[Ocotillo]

Paging Jeff Van Gundy.



How the hell would we ever sign Billy then? :lol

[romsho]

Richard Jefferson hasn't earned anything. Fuck the contract. Sit him. Why Pop continues to play small ball, especially at the end of games, remains a mystery. He see these guys in practice...he obviously feels the smaller lineup is a better option than what he has in his bigs. Certainly doesn't look like it in game situations. What does he have to lose at his point-bring Malik Hairston up, give him some of Jeffersons minutes, go with big lineups instead of small...I would rather lose that way than stay mired in mediocrity.

[bigzak25]

Pop should step aside, get Avery as coach, and trade for some ballers to put with TD, Manu, Hill, and Blair...

the time is NOW!

[SpurNation]

EGO got in the way of sound decisions and what would have been best.

[Flux451]

Damn, you just hurt my feelings. :)

We need a miracle this season. A blockbuster trade with a magical chemistry turn around is the only thing I see helping us. Otherwise its definitely over. One thing that comes to mind is SJAX (not saying gonna happen). I have shyed away from getting myself involved with conversations about him on this board, but man he is looking sharp and well behaved recently...moving on.

Your write up...Sad, but true. I agree with almost all except Mcdyess. I see him improving, especially after last night. I have never seen hiim more aggressively rebounding this season. Didn't understand the low PT either. Pop and his small balls.

Time for the ostrich to put his head in the ground.

[Old School 44]

To me it's all on Pop. Say what you will about the poor play of Jefferson and others, but Pop has been the biggest disappointment this year. He needs to get off of small ball and the three ball. I don't know how many times I cringed at the sight of players standing around the 3-pt line and launching. Where's the ball movement? A lot of times it's one and done. Next thing you know Tim's going to be launching threes just because he's ticked off at not getting any touches.

[elbamba]

You keep hoping that something will happen, something will turn this team around. They have lost about 12 winable games this year. But losing to Portland without their star player and several key injuries and then losing to LA without Kobe and Bynum will make any rational fan question this team.

[urunobili]

AJ would coach this team tot he NBA Finals... Pop's reign is over after this season....

[Killakobe81]

ouch.....that hurts :depressed

Should have this quote framed up at Pop's office

Great quote ... mad props if that is yours (original)

I think the Pop/RC criticism is over the top on here... he has 4 titles!!!
But the RJ ones are not ...

Not every move/strategy we will bear itself out ...Look at the GP and Phil mix GP hated Phil and I doubted he was agreat fit for the triangle ...even at older age his game and the triangle was a mess (GP one of my all time faves but like c3p he NEEDS the ball to be effective)

Lakers listened to Shaq and made a plea for GP and Malone Karl worked out GP struggled ...

Bad chemistry occures when you try and fit players (RJ) in to roles that they have not shown the abilty to adapt to ...

RJ is not a proven shooter he is a scorer with a decent jumper (before this year)

RJ is not a defensive stopper he is an athlete that can make some good defensive plays ...

RJ is not a hustle energy guy either but he can give you the occasional highlight real dunk or block

This is what he was BEFORE the Spurs got him ...none of that really is what the Spurs needed EXCEPT maybe teh athleticism ...

They need a shooter (you surround bigs with shooters ...duh!!) phil will always crowd the paint against SA ....BECAUSE it kills 2 birds with one stone
(Parker & tim)

A BIG he is not that and thoughg good Dice isnt either so you have Tim playing center ...

you guys have not replaced Bowen ...Bogans is NOT it either ...

[JR3]

I agree with pretty much all the points in this article. You can see them play out when you watch the games. Pop doesn't even yell at RJ anymore.

If pop kept yelling at RJ, RJ would probably start crying and roll up into a little ball and die. We don't need to make a scene.

[Old School 44]

You keep hoping that something will happen, something will turn this team around. They have lost about 12 winable games this year. But losing to Portland without their star player and several key injuries and then losing to LA without Kobe and Bynum will make any rational fan question this team.

I think Jackson pulled an old psych move on Pop. One that Pop pulled a few times with others in the Spurs better days.

Not that Kobe and Bynum aren't hurting, but it was a win/win if he sat them for this game. If the Lakers win without two key players the Spurs (and their fans) are even further demoralized. If the Lakers lose, no biggee, they have a built in excuse with no satisfaction for the Spurs.

[lurker23]

Thanks for the post timvp. I've only skimmed a lot of this thread, but here are a few thoughts from me:

-Last night was hard to watch. Really hard to watch. I know this team so well, based on the way they were playing in the second quarter, I could just feel the meltdown coming. In fact, near the end of the 1st half, I turned to my wife and said, "We can go to bed anytime you want, I don't need to see the end of this." She looked at me oddly and said, "Who are you and what have you done with my husband?" However, I ended up watching it all. Every last excruciating minute of it. It was like a horror movie that you can't stop watching, can't peel your eyes from the TV, even though you know something horrible is about to happen.

-I'm probably in the top 25% of optimists on this board, and pretty much always a HOYA all the way. This is the first year I've really, truly panicked. Something needs to happen. A trade, a mass benching, a 10-game suspension for Pop for going into the stands and beating up a fan. Seriously, someone, ANYONE do something to shake some life into this team.

-I've also been what many would call a Pop apologist, if somewhat silently. Usually I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, since he has more basketball knowledge after 5 bottles of Pinot Noir than I will when I'm 99 years old. However, last night was the last straw for me. It honestly looked like he didn't want to win. How else could you explain it? The lineups were horrible, the subs were horrible, and most of it didn't make much sense. I know many of you have been complaining about this for years, but Championship Pop, where hast thou gone?

-I agree that RJ simply isn't going to fit. He hasn't shown any heart, and hasn't played with much skill either. I was just as happy as everyone else when the trade went down. In fact, I'll still say that it was a good trade. You put that trade on my desk, and I take it 100 times out of 100. If Spurs fans got wind of that trade and that the Spurs turned it down, there would have been an absolute riot. Even if he had stayed on the Bucks or gone elsewhere and averaged 10 ppg on 35% shooting, some of us probably still would have said, "Yeah, but maybe he just needs a change of scenery. Maybe he would fit here." Well, now we know- he doesn't. The trade has been a catastrophic failure on the basketball court so far, and the only solace the Spurs have is that he's a big expiring contract next year.

-As for the rest of the team, I at least have modicums of faith in them. Tim may not be in his prime, but he's still better than a whole lot of big men in this league. I was yelling at Tony a lot last night for his poor passing decision making, but he's still better at getting into the paint than most guards in the league. Manu's flashes of brilliance are fewer and farther between, but man I still love watching him play, and would still love to watch him in a Spurs uniform for a couple more years. McDyess has looked good at times over the past few weeks, and I'm not willing to give up on him yet. Hill and Blair have their youthful limitations that may or may not go away, but they make me hopeful for the future. And the rest of the role players are mostly capable of playing their roles, but I'm fine with pretty much all of them being traded away to shake things up.

[tlongII]

Popovitch has always been over-rated imo. Tim Duncan won those titles in San Antonio, not Popovitch's coaching. The problem you have now is that he previously named himself President of Basketball Operations if I remember correctly. He would have to fire himself which is unlikely.

Probably the biggest surprise of the Spurs to me is Tony Parker's play. I thought he was better than this?

[Brazil]

Brutally Honest Truths ? We suck

[rAm]

Pop's tinkering with the line-up is killing this team.

Case in point: Ginobili was taken out after he just nailed a 3 and the spurs were cutting majorly into the lead. TP and TD come in, cold, and the offense stagnates, TP immediately shoots a long jumper, bricks, lakers run it and it's game over.

I was going to create a thread similar to this today, wouldn't have received any attention as this one has, but yes its time. Time to stop thinking about championships and start thinking about the future (championships).

[Chomag]

What kind of disturbed me a bit last night was watching Pop and Tony joking and laughing together late in the 4th.

Nothing wrong with joking per-say, but they should probably have been upset with themselves,serious and focused, and feeling terrible after getting beat down like that. Personaly, It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way, and had me wondering how much they cared that they were getting their asses handed to them by a limp Laker team . I could be wrong and I hope I am but it's just how it made me feel watching that.

[Silver&Black Warrior]

So what you're saying is...we're are a season away from being the Detroit Pistons? FUCK!!!!

My first post on this forum was so hopeful, even if it was after we lost in the playoffs. I saw Timmy never giving up, even at the end and it stuck with me. There must be a way, some way to at least get us in a position where we aren't a total mess...let Timmy throw his punches, let Manu leave with dignity rather than just quietly in the off season! LET IT ALL BE FOR SOMETHING! There are 10 days left to make a change, right? If we're losing the house, let's throw a fuckin party and wake the neighbors. :toast

:flag::flag::flag:

:rollin :lmao

One of the best posts of the year

[IronMexican]

What an emo thread. Why don't you go hang out with Jacob the mavfan, timvp.

[Sportcamper]

Pop should consider giving Kevin Willis a call…That one series where the Lakers got about 5 offensive rebounds before scoring was pretty bad…I mean its not like Lamar & Sasha are the inside presence of Shaq….

[LOL@MavsFan]

Brutally honest truth: FUCK YOU DICK!

[Oh, Gee!!]

another brutally honest truth: this will be manu's last season in a Spurs uniform

[G-Nob]

Stop it with fire Pop. Pop is trying desperately to find a combination to flip a switch in this team mentally. When the offense goes into a funk, as it often does, he has to interchange to get something going. He's a fine coach and we're lucky to have him.

That being said, this team has nothing defensively. I think the quick fix is a rugged player or two. Along with Barkley's sentiments last night, a big man would be essential. It doesnt have to be a superstar just someone to refill that need next to Tim. Once our perimeter defense can get shored up, we can compete. (Did you notice the word I used?)

We aren't going to beat the Lakers. Its unfortunate but its true. 1-15 they are stacked to the deck and there is nothing any team can do about it. Health will be a concern but that is why we play it out.

I believe in SPAM but that will only take effect with 1 or 2 new faces on this team. I'm not saying who specifically, but a team needs a shot in the arm to flip the mindset, even if that shot hurts like hell.

[ffadicted]

http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/115/7/e/__Jump_Off_a_Cliff___Emoticon_by_neek_zique.gif (http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/115/7/e/__Jump_Off_a_Cliff___Emoticon_by_neek_zique.gif)

That is all

[Obstructed_View]

He's a fine coach and we're lucky to have him.


Along with Barkley's sentiments last night, a big man would be essential. It doesnt have to be a superstar just someone to refill that need next to Tim.

I'm having trouble reconciling those two statements. The Spurs have two seven footers rotting away on the bench while Michael Finley covers Pau Gasol.

[Whisky Dog]

So now it's ok to give up and bitch because timvp says so? Ok

it's been evident this team is done for a while. They need to rebuild. They need to play the shut out of Ian and Hairston, try to get an additional 1st rounder if possible via trade, trade Manu cause he's not coming back and we need 1st round picks, and under no circumstances make the playoffs this year. 2 1st round picks and a rested and rejuvenated team next year with Parker the star and TD an above average rotation big is a step in the right direction.

[G-Nob]

I'm having trouble reconciling those two statements. The Spurs have two seven footers rotting away on the bench while Michael Finley covers Pau Gasol.

Who and who? I promise if they were worth a damn, they would be playing. Evidence being the FO is working the phones to get another big.

[xtremesteven33]

Last nights loss reminded me of the loss against the Lakers in 2008. The year we failed to repeat again. We knew that loss was proof that our dominance over the West was over. There was a new sherriff in town, and we would have to start rebuilding quickly around the Big 3 if we wanted to stay in contention.

Our recent loss reminds me alot of the way we walked off the court in 2008. The Spurs knew they just cant compete with the Lakers anymore. But last nights loss was so much worse cause it seemed as though the whole team looked like a bunch of losers. As bad as that sounds that what it looked like. With no more Bruce or Brent, who were the vocal leaders, nobody is there to be a vocal leader.

Pop doesnt give a shit anymore.Its obvious, to put your rookie bigman to go up against "the most skilled bigman" on the road, on a nationally telivised game is pretty evident that he knew ths Spurs wouldnt win either way. F*** Pop. He had this coming to him..

[xtremesteven33]

So now it's ok to give up and bitch because timvp says so?


Hey I called this before Christmas...
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142701

[TJastal]

I think there are lots of coaches out there who could coach the talent on this team to a 2nd or 3rd in the West. There's really no excuse for a team this healthy, with this much talent, and payroll, to be lower than 3rd.

But that coach just isn't going to be Popovich. He's getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league this year. His ragaholic disciplinarian routine is tired and old and nonsensical in the first place. I'll tell you what his legacy should be...that of the luckiest coach in the history of the league.

The Spurs wilt too often and play with no confidence much of the time. That's because Popovich's style is to beat on them and degrade them -- everybody except for Finley and Bogans, neither of whon have an ounce of talent left, and arguably shouldn't be in the league.

And then he does things like play smallball, which takes them out of games they could win. Tonight against the Lakers, we were cutting the lead in the 4th, trying ot make arun. And who doe he put in the game...Bogans. Who on the Lakers is slow enough for Bogans to guard besides Fisher?

We could have cut the lead down to five, as Doug Collins said, if the three-point shot Parker's pass set up in the corner had fallen. Who took that shot? Bogans. As if that's ever going to go in. Bogans never should have been on the floor. If any other 2 or 3 on the team takes that shot, it has a better chance of going in.

Just another example of how Pop is making this team worse, not better. Timvp very accurately stated that fact in his excellent original post.

The Keith Bogans' signing has been a double whammy of sorts. First, by effectively ending Hairston's development and season.

And second it has disrupted Roger Mason's role on the team, culiminating in his total loss of confidence and playing time.

I was never a big fan of the Keith Bogans' signing... just another example of Pop's propensity for choosing older, unathletic players over young athletic ones.. when the big 3 are getting old themselves, nearing the end of their careers, they need to be surrounded by athletic studs.

[Obstructed_View]

Who and who? I promise if they were worth a damn, they would be playing.
You mean like Rasho and Nazr in 2006 after the Spurs won 63 games? Or do you mean like Hill and Bowen last year?


Evidence being the FO is working the phones to get another big.
I'm sorry, what evidence is that? :lol

[Old School 44]

What really kills me about this season is many of us see the same things and have the same complaints. What's up with Pop? How come he can't see it?
What about his assistants? What about Holt? The players? The local media?

Is Pop just that intimidating that no one is in a position to question him?
Does he have a free pass? and yes...I know, I know he's got 4 rings...

[Spurs Brazil]

great read timvp

Sad but true.

I really hope a trade happen. This can't get worse

[murpjf88]

If RJ really cares about the Spurs, he will opt out after the season.

[SpurNation]

the situation for the FO at this deadline is probably tougher than we can imagine.
while I don't think they are discussing to tank the season, they might very well admit that this last shot for a title (spending big for RJ and Dice) has failed and that from now on every move has to be done with the future (time past Tim) in mind.
this might also mean that they don't try to save the season, because they think that such a process is better started in the offseason.

on the other hand, the Spurs do have some assets to get something done, a desperation move, if they once more are willing to take back more money.
problem is, those moves almost never pay good dividends.
(I'm talking about something like all expirings for Dalembert, Jamison or Murphy for example. other teams would likely agree to such deals)

IMO the toughest question isn't about what to do with Manu, it's what to do with Tony.
TIMVP as most others blame Tony's weak season on his play for the French NT.
I think that's only half the truth!
yes, playing the summer didn't help to keep him frech, that for sure. but what if already happens, what some experts expected some time ago, when Tony looked to have made the step from good player to top tire franchise level.
fact is, no other player in this league has played so many NBA games, (and more important: NBA PO games) than Tony did till 27.
Tony just reached the nice number of 777 NBA games. I once read that 800 games might be the average turning point, when players start to show the wear, no matter how old they are.
Tony is a very very old 27.
and to make things worse, his major (probably only) superstar quality is his speed. if his speed is gone (this especially means that he can use his speed for a whole game and not only for a quarter) he will be a very average player.

Tony's trade value currently might be still high enough to get a top talent back (maybe plus a nice pick).
if the Spurs think about the future, this might be the best way. compared to this, the Manu question is almost secondary.

Nice take. It might seem appropriate to think future at this point regardless of Tim's two years left.

Perhaps a total shake up of roster with regards to your point would be the best in a situation such as you suggested and a total rebuild of core players not named Duncan could yield for Parker, Manu and Jefferson some gifted talent in youth and ability to help Duncan win one more ring and give this team a core of players to repeat in a future without Duncan.

Parker for picks. Manu for cap space/picks. Jefferson to just get him out.

If the FO feels there's not a shot this year...might as well look to pad your options for garnishing young talent for the future.

[TJastal]

If he's smart, Pop will pull a Dunleavy and step down as coach, and salvage what's left of his legacy before he fucks up any worse.

[lurker23]

If RJ really cares about the Spurs, he will opt out after the season.

I was thinking about something similar earlier. Back when the Spurs traded for RJ, I felt the chances that he exercised his Early Termination Option was about 0.1%. If there's a fair amount of ill will between RJ and the Spurs by the end of this season, perhaps that number raises to 1-2%. However, the $10 million or so he stands to lose is probably too much of a motivator to allow him to do that.

More likely, if the Spurs really want to part ways with RJ, his contract becomes a lot more valuable as an expiring next year. If he keeps playing like he is now, they could probably still dump him and get marginal/decent talent back in return. There's also an outside chance that one of the big cap space teams will completely strike out in free agency, and might be willing to take on RJ's contract for a draft pick.

[MmP]

It's a sad day to Spurs fans, not because of the current situation but Timvp has given up on this team. He's always been patience and most of the time given great comments of common sense. But in this one I think he's speaking with too much fire in his head to think cleaerer.

What I think that frighten more to Spurs fans is the fact the this team hasn't been in this slump in a long time and most are thinking that a long bad streak it's being a never ending whole.
Plus I think the Spurs fans and Timvp as well has put too much hopes in the rodeo trip. But you're not considering that there's still half season to improve and matching up against good teams that will only help Spurs.

Wanna know what I think? I think I don't give up on this players. There's enough talent to build a good team chemestry. We have a coach that has been questioned but as many situations can turn bad, they can still go from bad to good. Especially with proven talents. Despite de aging of most I don't actually belive that's the real problem. I just don't buy that a player can decrease this bad in months. To me it's a lack of team chemestry, probably because Jefferson hasn't adapted to the sistem. And I admit that he's probably never will. So trade him or make him take another role that it's not in the scoring area. He can be useful in many other areas. Bench him or play him less. He can be useful. And we have enough offense talent to keep up with the good teams.

It's clear that the Spurs need a turnaround. I know that Pop knows it and he's working on it.


I still believe that anything can happen. I wont lose confidence until the season is over.

[iManu]

Ehlo. :(

[rascal]

So now it's ok to give up and bitch because timvp says so? Ok

it's been evident this team is done for a while. They need to rebuild. They need to play the shut out of Ian and Hairston, try to get an additional 1st rounder if possible via trade, trade Manu cause he's not coming back and we need 1st round picks, and under no circumstances make the playoffs this year. 2 1st round picks and a rested and rejuvenated team next year with Parker the star and TD an above average rotation big is a step in the right direction.

exactly. Some of us have been saying this way before timvp finally realized it is not happening this year. But since timvp has now jumped ship in not believing in this team anymore it is now all right for the rest of the sheep to follow.

[venitian navigator]

imho the bihggest problem we have is size and lenght.
But we don't have a lot to give, so, anyway, we have to take some risk...

For example : Jefferson for Prince could be an idea, they both have a contract expiring in 2011 for a similar amount, Prince had a bad season due to injuries but probably, also with one leg, he could be better option than Jefferson against players a la Odom or a la Artest...
Detroit could bite, considering that their stile of play looks like up tempo oriented, and could give to an healty and talented player like Jefferson some good opportunities to shine

Diop or Chandler for expirings : Charlotte has too many bigs, and I'm talking of long and defensive oriented bigs...that's just what we lack...

[iManu]

RJ for Prince would be a genius move.

[HoopsCzar]

Stop it with fire Pop. Pop is trying desperately to find a combination to flip a switch in this team mentally. When the offense goes into a funk, as it often does, he has to interchange to get something going. He's a fine coach and we're lucky to have him.

That being said, this team has nothing defensively. I think the quick fix is a rugged player or two. Along with Barkley's sentiments last night, a big man would be essential. It doesnt have to be a superstar just someone to refill that need next to Tim. Once our perimeter defense can get shored up, we can compete. (Did you notice the word I used?)

We aren't going to beat the Lakers. Its unfortunate but its true. 1-15 they are stacked to the deck and there is nothing any team can do about it. Health will be a concern but that is why we play it out.

I believe in SPAM but that will only take effect with 1 or 2 new faces on this team. I'm not saying who specifically, but a team needs a shot in the arm to flip the mindset, even if that shot hurts like hell.


Nope,..

First off It's not mental and no matter what Popovich tries with what's been constructed. Fact is this teams flaws are flat out physical and to try forging it any other way is futile and not seeing the big picture.

The dynamics of the players they've retained and acquired is a bad mix in regards to how they play and the various inabilities to matchup with an array of opponents.

See Popovich scripts methodic[s] and he no longer has the horses to play that way. The trio can't do it alone and on their offseason shopping spree the coach and GM didn't help them a single bit.

With Jefferson you have to script to athleticism in transition, with McDyess it's got to be a more structured and slow down pace, with Ratliff it's spot minutes defense. Which when adding all the single faceted shoots that can't find any comfort in trying to get their shots.

It's a mix of non augmenting skills sets and with the money spent and how easy it is to recognize and for other teams to attack it's turned into a focus shifting and finger pointing circus,..and it's the result of clownish construction.

That said,.. this team still isn't far off from a few tweaks being able to immensely and immediately improve. However, it's just now that much more difficult and the time to work them into a confident chemistry is running out.

With a full compliment of roster spots already filled now to fix it would be even more expense, less likely and a bit late in the game.

[Old School 44]

Wow, right now in the middle of the afternoon, there are over 650 viewing the Spurs forum. Is there a trade I missed or did somebody die? :depressed

[rayray2k8]

Wow, right now in the middle of the afternoon, there are over 650 viewing the Spurs forum. Is there a trade I missed or did somebody die? :depressed

We're in morning brother..

[boutons_deux]

US Central Time, it's afternoon.

[ShoogarBear]

We're in morning brother..


US Central Time, it's afternoon.

:lmao :lmao

http://www.nba.com/media/heat/Alonzo-Mourning_295_050602.jpg

[Whisky Dog]

:lmao
US Central Time, it's afternoon.

[DPG21920]

I am more with Bruno than Timvp on this. The team is playing terrible. I remember thinking last night as I turned off the game, that this was the first time in a long time that I knew this team had no chance to win as is. It was a strange and sad feeling.

But like Bruno, I think that things can change, but it would take flawless execution and a little bit of luck as always (finding a trade partner that actually fits your needs smartly). It is hard enough to trade as is, but especially when you need specific things and teams know you are desperate.

One thing is for sure though, it is really strange to see the big 3 out on the court together and now there is no chance if something does not change.

[TD 21]

he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system.

Complex system? This team used to have the most complex system in the entire league, now they're like most teams, it's a steady diet of middle pick-and-rolls and post-ups. Late in the game, I just shut it off, but you tell me, was their another play run in that game besides those two? Even the 1-2 they usually run for Jefferson were missing, like that one where they run him along the baseline, set a diagonal screen for him and free him up to either curl into the lane and finish or get prime post position on his man. Defensively, the Spurs do different rotations than most, but that can no longer be an excuse at this point. They've had 50 games, plus preseason and training camp.

Difficult as it was to read, I agree with everything you said. Surfing the net today, it seems as if last night was really the last straw for most in the basketball world with regards to this team. I had already given up on them and come to grips with this sometime after the Nuggets/Trail Blazers games. I knew before then that they weren't winning a championship as constructed, but I was still of the belief that a Camby trade or something similar would give them a shot.

Their problems run much deeper than that and the reality of the situation is they more than likely will not be able to assemble, much less win, a championship caliber team for the duration of the Duncan era. His body is breaking down and with a lockout looming after next season, Duncan will probably retire, given that and the state the franchise is in. That's pretty much the last thing to look forward to for Spurs fans at this point, watching his swan song. Wouldn't that be fitting, if Duncan retired without all that usually going along with an all-time great retiring in sports and just announces it sometime during the inevitable lockout? He deserves more, but he'd probably prefer it that way, with little fanfare.

[poop]

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.


WOW. i was pinked and lots of others given endless shit last season , mods included for emphasizing this exact thing.

glad you finally came around and admit the truth now tho:hat

[DPG21920]

Random question, especially because I don't know him, but where is Whottt?

[duncan228]

Random question, especially because I don't know him, but where is Whottt?

Haven't seen him around in a long time. :(

[spyder]

Get rid of RJ..dude blows and was worst pick up ever!!

[bdictjames]

We have about 30 games left in the season.

There might be a hope, but its not very big.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I was considering starting a similar thread and then I saw this one.

Last night's game had to mark the lowest point I've witnessed for this franchise since Timmy's been a Spur.

This team has proven it can't compete with the upper 4 or 5 teams in the West. There's been no glimmer of hope and the season is over 60% done.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

not gonna read all 7 pages but whats a decent estimate of how many people in a row said i agree with all your points timvp?


The way this season was going to end up was apparent after our third game of the season. There were too many big glaring holes in the team cohesion, and that was before factoring in injuries and fatigue.

But like i said in the game blog....we will always have our Quattro. They'll never take away three in five years. Scoreboard, bitches.

[urunobili]

Haven't seen him around in a long time. :(

whottt is posting daily and a LOT on one of his other user names... he wont post anymore as himself i until i dunno when :downspin:

[duncan228]

whottt is posting daily and a LOT on one of his other user names... he wont post anymore as himself i until i dunno when :downspin:

Yeah, but I miss whottt.

[Manu20]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/cantu5977/Big4-1.jpg


It looked so promising!:depressed

[TDomination]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/cantu5977/Big4-1.jpg


It looked so promising!:depressed
This makes me want to cry. I remember how excited I was about this season. Ugh...this sucks :(

[DPG21920]

Is Timvp a Davis Guggenheim troll?

[TDomination]

But like i said in the game blog....we will always have our Quattro. They'll never take away three in five years. Scoreboard, bitches.

Those were special moments and i tried to cherish every single one of the those the most i could because i knew that could've been our last.

.04 pisses me off even more now and so does game 7 in 06' ...great opportunities to add to our collection.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I agree entirely with timvp's OP. The window has closed.

For mine, it is time to rebuild. Tim, Tony, Grizzly, George, Ian and Malik stay (although it looks like Ian has gone already - what a waste, they should've picked up his option and started to play him), everyone else is expendable. I'd like to see Manu play out his career here on a decent 2-year contract, but if he needs to be shipped, so be it.

This team needs youth, and above all, ATHLETICISM. That is the new NBA. We're still chugging along under the old defensive model that won championships from the late-'90s through 2005, but that's not the NBA any more. Changes to perimeter hand-checking and moving screens has made this a slashers game, and we need to catch up to that.

[Mr. Body]

Curse of Luis Scola. Not trading him, we woulda gone for three in a row.

Why you still cursing us, Luis? Why?

[baseline bum]

Here's a brutally honest truth: the Spurs are in great danger of missing the playoffs. Not as in maybe they hit a bad streak and maybe miss the playoffs, but as in if they don't hit a hot streak or make an overall improvement, they will miss the playoffs (they are currently on pace to miss them when you factor in strength of schedule and remaining road games vs. their success in both so far this season).

[Kool Bob Love]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/cantu5977/Big4-1.jpg


It looked so promising!:depressed

http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/rustyporter/2qbrhaq.gif

[DPG21920]

It is crazy to think that all the signs point to them having a legit shot at not making the playoffs. I cannot buy it from a mental standpoint, but the signs are serious enough you have to at least consider it. Which is almost unthinkable.

[Mr. Body]

It is crazy to think that all the signs point to them having a legit shot at not making the playoffs. I cannot buy it from a mental standpoint, but the signs are serious enough you have to at least consider it. Which is almost unthinkable.

We need a lottery pick to get anywhere. I can see them falling out of the POs. At this point it's either mire in mediocrity for several years or somehow hit a triple with young talent. We have to get lucky.

[all_heart]

I don't necessarily agree about the "new NBA"..we won a title with the same hand-checking rules in 2007 and we could have easily won in 2006..we lost because of our offense in 2008..

The Spurs simply fucked up by not tweaking the roster to fit with the AGING big 3..it makes sense to surround your big 3 with old veterans that play specific roles to compliment them when the big 3 are young and in their primes..Duncan was enough to anchor the paint all by himself, Manu and Parker were 2 of the best slashers in the NBA..you can get away with having great specialists like Bowen and Horry when your main players are young and in their primes..

Once the big 3 got old though, why would the FO decide to surround them with more old players?..how does that make any sense?..Duncan is 33 years old and has been past his prime for the last few years, but their plan to protect the paint was to surround him with Kurt Thomas, Antonio McDyess, and an aging Fab Oberto?..how does that make any sense?..trading a 27-year old Scola?!..Ian can't even get a minute?!..

Bruce Bowen's successor was supposed to be a 30 year old in Ime fucking Udoka?..instead of giving Hairston a chance this year, they had to sign 30-year old veteran journeyman Keith Bogans?!..Michael Finley has barely been able to move for the last few years, yet he's still playing significant minutes?!..

Look at the immediate impact we've seen in Hill and Blair..it's mind-boggling that they didn't surround our big 3 with younger players as the big 3 got older..this team still has an old-ass mentality..it doesn't take a genius to figure this out..

I realize the Spurs haven't been in the lottery so it's more difficult to find young talent, but that doesn't excuse anything..we already had stars the last few years, we just needed younger role players to surround them with..the young players on this team don't even get a chance unless we have no other options..

Nice post, makes a lot sense. Spurs need energy and hustle out there that young legs can give them. Let the big 3 be the leaders.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Here's a brutally honest truth: the Spurs are in great danger of missing the playoffs. Not as in maybe they hit a bad streak and maybe miss the playoffs, but as in if they don't hit a hot streak or make an overall improvement, they will miss the playoffs (they are currently on pace to miss them when you factor in strength of schedule and remaining road games vs. their success in both so far this season).

At this point, given that there's no point making the playoffs and going nowhere, I hope we do miss the playoffs and enter the lottery. Looks like a deep draft, and we badly need an athletic perimeter guy like, say, Xavier Henry (listed 14 at the moment on draftexpress):

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2010/

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I don't necessarily agree about the "new NBA"..we won a title with the same hand-checking rules in 2007 and we could have easily won in 2006..we lost because of our offense in 2008..

The Spurs simply fucked up by not tweaking the roster to fit with the AGING big 3..it makes sense to surround your big 3 with old veterans that play specific roles to compliment them when the big 3 are young and in their primes..Duncan was enough to anchor the paint all by himself, Manu and Parker were 2 of the best slashers in the NBA..you can get away with having great specialists like Bowen and Horry when your main players are young and in their primes..

Once the big 3 got old though, why would the FO decide to surround them with more old players?..how does that make any sense?..Duncan is 33 years old and has been past his prime for the last few years, but their plan to protect the paint was to surround him with Kurt Thomas, Antonio McDyess, and an aging Fab Oberto?..how does that make any sense?..trading a 27-year old Scola?!..Ian can't even get a minute?!..

Bruce Bowen's successor was supposed to be a 30 year old in Ime fucking Udoka?..instead of giving Hairston a chance this year, they had to sign 30-year old veteran journeyman Keith Bogans?!..Michael Finley has barely been able to move for the last few years, yet he's still playing significant minutes?!..

Look at the immediate impact we've seen in Hill and Blair..it's mind-boggling that they didn't surround our big 3 with younger players as the big 3 got older..this team still has an old-ass mentality..it doesn't take a genius to figure this out..

I realize the Spurs haven't been in the lottery so it's more difficult to find young talent, but that doesn't excuse anything..we already had stars the last few years, we just needed younger role players to surround them with..the young players on this team don't even get a chance unless we have no other options..

My point was that our team is, relative to many other contending teams, slow and not at all athletic. Athletic is the way the game is going, but we have very few athletes. You want to call it young legs, fine, but it's really just semantics.

The elephant in the room is Pop's system - has it outlived its effectiveness? Is it time to actually modify the way the Spurs play combined with an influx of youth? I haven't decided on that one, but I do know that Pop has to get better at tailoring his system to the strengths of his players, particularly since rebuilding will mean massive change in personnel.

[Mr. Body]

At this point, given that there's no point making the playoffs and going nowhere, I hope we do miss the playoffs and enter the lottery. Looks like a deep draft, and we badly need an athletic perimeter guy like, say, Xavier Henry (listed 14 at the moment on draftexpress):

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2010/

I've been starting to trawl the draft sites, too. Devin Ebanks is also a SF around that point. The player we really need (don't we ever) is Evan Turner. That guy is incredible. But we'd have to draw a lottery ball.

[SenorSpur]

I don't necessarily agree about the "new NBA"..we won a title with the same hand-checking rules in 2007 and we could have easily won in 2006..we lost because of our offense in 2008..

The Spurs simply fucked up by not tweaking the roster to fit with the AGING big 3..it makes sense to surround your big 3 with old veterans that play specific roles to compliment them when the big 3 are young and in their primes..Duncan was enough to anchor the paint all by himself, Manu and Parker were 2 of the best slashers in the NBA..you can get away with having great specialists like Bowen and Horry when your main players are young and in their primes..

Once the big 3 got old though, why would the FO decide to surround them with more old players?..how does that make any sense?..Duncan is 33 years old and has been past his prime for the last few years, but their plan to protect the paint was to surround him with Kurt Thomas, Antonio McDyess, and an aging Fab Oberto?..how does that make any sense?..trading a 27-year old Scola?!..Ian can't even get a minute?!..

Bruce Bowen's successor was supposed to be a 30 year old in Ime fucking Udoka?..instead of giving Hairston a chance this year, they had to sign 30-year old veteran journeyman Keith Bogans?!..Michael Finley has barely been able to move for the last few years, yet he's still playing significant minutes?!..

Look at the immediate impact we've seen in Hill and Blair..it's mind-boggling that they didn't surround our big 3 with younger players as the big 3 got older..this team still has an old-ass mentality..it doesn't take a genius to figure this out..

I realize the Spurs haven't been in the lottery so it's more difficult to find young talent, but that doesn't excuse anything..we already had stars the last few years, we just needed younger role players to surround them with..the young players on this team don't even get a chance unless we have no other options..

Amen.

Unfortunately for the FO, the gambles they took over the offseason have failed miserably. Now, the time has come where they don't very many optoins. I totally agree with those who've claimed that the failure of this roster means a lost year and, in effect, the window is closed.

I feel the worse for Duncan. He simply didn't deserve this and the FO has failed him miserably. They put woefully inadequate pieces around him and he's still a man on an island.

It simply doesn't make sense to try and piecemeal any further. The cold, hard reality is that it's time to turn it over and start rebuilding.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's very possible that Pop's system is done, but I don't think it is..we finished with a good record last season despite so many injuries and despite starting mediocre players like Roger Mason, Michael Finley and Matt Bonner..despite having very little quality of depth off the bench..

It's possible though..of course we won't know if Pop's system needs an adjustment or whether we just need young players on the team..we won't know this because Pop won't ever play a lineup of more than 2 young players unless he has no other options..

[George Gervin's Afro]

we suck sooner rather than later. we're going to suck for a while..

[SpurNation]

Feable minds tend to hold on to old beliefs though proof of a better way regarding a trend is all but clear.

As the game progresses...so must the approach. Believing one can change the stripes on a Zebra has always proven to be a futile attempt of being narcissistic.

[spurs10]

As discouraged as everyone is at this low point in time, the Spurs are going to find a way to compete. Last night was a trap game because we thought it was a lose-lose situation....which it most certainly was. RJ is going to have to dig down deep if he wants to play with this team. I don't think he doesn't care, he seems as concerned as everybody else. Either a sleeping giant will awaken within him, and this team as a whole, or we ain't going far. If none of our bigs are going to play, then I pray a trade is in the works.

[TJastal]

I don't necessarily agree about the "new NBA"..we won a title with the same hand-checking rules in 2007 and we could have easily won in 2006..we lost because of our offense in 2008..

The Spurs simply fucked up by not tweaking the roster to fit with the AGING big 3..it makes sense to surround your big 3 with old veterans that play specific roles to compliment them when the big 3 are young and in their primes..Duncan was enough to anchor the paint all by himself, Manu and Parker were 2 of the best slashers in the NBA..you can get away with having great specialists like Bowen and Horry when your main players are young and in their primes..

Once the big 3 got old though, why would the FO decide to surround them with more old players?..how does that make any sense?..Duncan is 33 years old and has been past his prime for the last few years, but their plan to protect the paint was to surround him with Kurt Thomas, Antonio McDyess, and an aging Fab Oberto?..how does that make any sense?..trading a 27-year old Scola?!..Ian can't even get a minute?!..

Bruce Bowen's successor was supposed to be a 30 year old in Ime fucking Udoka?..instead of giving Hairston a chance this year, they had to sign 30-year old veteran journeyman Keith Bogans?!..Michael Finley has barely been able to move for the last few years, yet he's still playing significant minutes?!..

Look at the immediate impact we've seen in Hill and Blair..it's mind-boggling that they didn't surround our big 3 with younger players as the big 3 got older..this team still has an old-ass mentality..it doesn't take a genius to figure this out..

I realize the Spurs haven't been in the lottery so it's more difficult to find young talent, but that doesn't excuse anything..we already had stars the last few years, we just needed younger role players to surround them with..the young players on this team don't even get a chance unless we have no other options..

+1

With the alarming decline of the big 3 this year, Pop needs to put a good amount of athletes on the floor with these guys to prop up their declining athleticism.. not guys like Bonner, Bogans, and Finley.

[ElNono]

It's very possible that Pop's system is done, but I don't think it is..we finished with a good record last season despite so many injuries and despite starting mediocre players like Roger Mason, Michael Finley and Matt Bonner..despite having very little quality of depth off the bench..

It's possible though..of course we won't know if Pop's system needs an adjustment or whether we just need young players on the team..we won't know this because Pop won't ever play a lineup of more than 2 young players unless he has no other options..

Which one of the two Pop systems are you talking about? The one that won us 4 championships or the garbage we've been playing for a couple of seasons now?

[SenorSpur]

It's very possible that Pop's system is done, but I don't think it is..we finished with a good record last season despite so many injuries and despite starting mediocre players like Roger Mason, Michael Finley and Matt Bonner..despite having very little quality of depth off the bench..

It's possible though..of course we won't know if Pop's system needs an adjustment or whether we just need young players on the team..we won't know this because Pop won't ever play a lineup of more than 2 young players unless he has no other options..

He'll have to sooner rather than later.

With Manu out the door this summer, RJ sucking and hopefully traded, and the triumverate of Bonner, Mason and Finley all expiring, the door will likely be forced open for a total roster rebuild.

Personally, I believe this coach and FO will have to face the "shock" of missing the playoffs for them to really get it. If they're foolish enough to still believe the window is still open, I guarantee you that missing the playoffs will sober them up quick.

[coachmac87]

This is 75% on POP...Hear me out.

Keith Bogans- When we signed him the last mintue of the offseason, I was like ok..decent shooter, and decent defender. But we didnt need him....and all he did was crowd our wings. Which is exactly what he has done this year. Taking away PT from players that contribute. People talk trash about Finley and Mason, but those guys can shoot and have hit HUGE shots for this team the past couple of years. Bogans hasnt hit shit since College. He is overrated defender is by far our worst shooting guard. And he cant create for other either......You cant take this team serioulsy when Keith MUTHA FUCKING Bogans is getting PT. Sorry

Bigs- I really thought we had alot of options this year with our bigs....But DAMN was I wrong about that. Pop really fucked this one up. BAD! We didnt cough up our Mid-level for another "role player" did we??? (McDyess). I mean if I knew that was the case we might as well have stuck with Bonner with our starting big. Oh and we got LUCKY with Blair...Oh god I cannot fucking imagine....Ian doesn't miss a shot, yet cant see the court. I have heard all the excuses from the FO for not giving him any CHANCE...Could go down as the worst 1st rd pick in franchise history..and its not all his fault. I blame the FO for not even giving this kid a chance. Same goes for Haslip, yeah apparently he sucks..then WTF did we give him a contract??? Nuff said. And im sure Ratliff could be used for his defense, something none of our bigs can play except Timmy.

Richard Jefferson- Im easy on him unlike most of yall. He has been put into a position to fail. We ALLLLLL knew he could not come on this team and be our 3rd or 4th scoring option...it just wouldnt work. He isnt that type of player. He needs to be your 1st or 2nd option. Period. If he isn't shouldnt be on your team, and yes he is over paid lol..but thats not the point. He is on our team so we have to make the best of it, which Pop has not done at all.

So ya POP fuckin sucks. Just like he did 00-02

[Phenomanul]

Did BELIEVE die?

[SenorSpur]

Keith Bogans- When we signed him the last mintue of the offseason, I was like ok..decent shooter, and decent defender. But we didnt need him....and all he did was crowd our wings. Which is exactly what he has done this year. Taking away PT from players that contribute. People talk trash about Finley and Mason, but those guys can shoot and have hit HUGE shots for this team the past couple of years. Bogans hasnt hit shit since College. He is overrated defender is by far our worst shooting guard. And he cant create for other either......You cant take this team serioulsy when Keith MUTHA FUCKING Bogans is getting PT. Sorry
Please! You're spewing venom about the wrong guy. The deficiency at the wing positions is, and has been, a MAJOR issue with this team - and this has got nothing to do with Bogans. He no longer starts anyway and has given way to George Hill at SG. Hill is a very good player, but he's still undersized and shouldn't be used as the Spurs primary defensive stopper. That's another story.

Here's the problem. For years, Pop has favored spot-up shooters, who are slow afoot, cannot defend and have not provided much else in terms of skill set or contributions. In fact, the common thread with these guys is that if they're not shooting well, they become instant liabilities. Finley and Mason are virtually one-trick ponies. Finley is old, past his prime and should've been gone 2 years ago. Mason is one-dimensional, inconsistent and cannot get to the rim. These guys, and guys like them before, have been featured way too prominently on this team for too many years. While a stream of more athletic players have entered the NBA at those positions, Pop has countered by staying the course, while watching his precious spot-up shooters get torched on the other end of the court. I've said this for a couple of years now because Pop has subscribed to this flawed philosophy for several years. There's nothing wrong with have a spot-up shooter or two, but having 3-4 players who do the same thing and have the same limitations is just absurd.


Bigs- I really thought we had alot of options this year with our bigs....But DAMN was I wrong about that. Pop really fucked this one up. BAD! We didnt cough up our Mid-level for another "role player" did we??? (McDyess). I mean if I knew that was the case we might as well have stuck with Bonner with our starting big. Oh and we got LUCKY with Blair...Oh god I cannot fucking imagine....Ian doesn't miss a shot, yet cant see the court. I have heard all the excuses from the FO for not giving him any CHANCE...Could go down as the worst 1st rd pick in franchise history..and its not all his fault. I blame the FO for not even giving this kid a chance. Same goes for Haslip, yeah apparently he sucks..then WTF did we give him a contract??? Nuff said. And im sure Ratliff could be used for his defense, something none of our bigs can play except Timmy.
Now I have to agree with you totally on that one. The frontcourt depth would've been set had Pop simply allowed Ian to get some court time. Ratliff isn't playing anyway, so what would it hurt. I'm just as pissed about that as anyone. With the way Dice has struggled, I'm now even wondering why they allowed Gooden to simply walk away.


Richard Jefferson- Im easy on him unlike most of yall. He has been put into a position to fail. We ALLLLLL knew he could not come on this team and be our 3rd or 4th scoring option...it just wouldnt work. He isnt that type of player. He needs to be your 1st or 2nd option. Period. If he isn't shouldnt be on your team, and yes he is over paid lol..but thats not the point. He is on our team so we have to make the best of it, which Pop has not done at all.
Yeah, I was a big RJ proponent from the beginning. I thought he would be a perfect fit. I've come around to realize that he doesn't fit and I've been really hard on him. You're right. He didn't ask to come here and perhaps Pop and RC should've done more homework on him - seeing as how it appears that Scott Skiles and the Bucks FO were so desparate to see him gone. That said, you have to put some blame on RJ for his failed performances. It's not going to work out for him here. He needs to be traded soon. If not now, then definitely over the summer.

[TJastal]

As I'm watching the nuggets totally dismantle the mavericks tonight, I'm seeing George Karl is finding ways to use his young big, Johan Petro, and get solid contributions and yet Ian can't see the light of day.

[TJastal]

And Petro ironically is from France as well.

:lol

[michaelwcho]

I think we can agree that winning covers up a lot of faults. The converse is that losing conjures up a lot of faults, warts, problems, complaints that are imaginary.

I don't think one can rightly criticize a coach who has won as much as Pop has, with the players he has had. This team has been stacked for many years, but never as stacked as LA this year, Boston the last couple years, LA with Kobe-Shaq, or even Dallas when they were really good.

Our complaints about the role players are also just marginal. They are competent enough. Championships have been won with benches just as mediocre.

The simple problems are that Parker and Ginobili have declined because of injury. They are the stars; they are who matter. You bring them to what they were a couple years ago and we are right back in the mix. Maybe not as good as LA or Cleveland, but those teams are stacked.

RJ was never the answer. He is a volume shooter with average all-around skills, just taking time away from better players. And he's expensive.

[Old School 44]

I wish we would get away from shooting so many threes. It's been the old cliche, live by the three die by the three. I think it's a big part of why we go into offensive droughts. IMO Pop's affection with the 3 ball, is also why some of the youth hasn't gotten the playing time. I think there is a direct correlation between good three point shooters and non-athletic players, particularly with the Spurs.

It's great if you can mix it up and penetrate off of faking a three, like the Manu of old, but that rarely happens now.

[Avitus1]

Sad truths but truths we are all probably realizing.. I just hope that we can pull something out...

[polandprzem]

It is what it is

[Obstructed_View]

Did BELIEVE die?

No, the 2 man game died. The Spurs lived off that last year with Duncan/Manu, Duncan/Parker and Duncan/Mason. I've seen it run two or three times at the most this year.

[HoopsCzar]

I think we can agree that winning covers up a lot of faults. The converse is that losing conjures up a lot of faults, warts, problems, complaints that are imaginary.

I don't think one can rightly criticize a coach who has won as much as Pop has, with the players he has had. This team has been stacked for many years, but never as stacked as LA this year, Boston the last couple years, LA with Kobe-Shaq, or even Dallas when they were really good.

Our complaints about the role players are also just marginal. They are competent enough. Championships have been won with benches just as mediocre.

The simple problems are that Parker and Ginobili have declined because of injury. They are the stars; they are who matter. You bring them to what they were a couple years ago and we are right back in the mix. Maybe not as good as LA or Cleveland, but those teams are stacked.

RJ was never the answer. He is a volume shooter with average all-around skills, just taking time away from better players. And he's expensive.


Here's the response,..

The absolute is winning doesn't cover faults / flaws it solidifies a lack of the considerable faults and flaws. Wondering how long you've been a Spurs fan it's to be pointed out that Parker nor Ginobili aren't thee stars. They never were they've established themselves as core co-stars along side Tim Duncan,..the star of stars is Timmy D and it's without question.

The Parker and Ginobili injuries have cost floor minutes but they're not disabled due to any lingering effect of them either,..aged wear and tear, developing opponents talent and scouting is creating a opposition.

The championship years of the Spurs was as talented as any team that's ever won a championship outside of a one man juggernaut called Micheal Jordan's Bulls,..co-staring Scottie Pippin, Dennis Rodman and a host of role playing shooters and help rebounders.

Also there's no immunity here and that contention that Popovich merits a pass utterance is as shoddy as this teams current record.
Also Richard Jefferson isn't a volume shooter he's a total floor game smallish SF that will only impact matchups in a open floor transition game that gives him the opportunity to attack and challenge,..and that's not Popovich's style.

Lastly Popovich and Buford did a poor job of structuring this cast and there's no doubt about it. Where to top it off no excuse holds water in trying to refute that,..watch the games and that's crystal clear.

[polandprzem]

I'm watch LA game

F I got pissed ! I will be back with that tomorrow or just after Nuggets game