How valuable is Pau Gasol?..

[HarlemHeat37]

The Lakers are 30-7 this season with Pau Gasol in the lineup..

They are 10-6 without him, losing by major blowouts to the majority of the playoff teams they faced, including Denver, San Antonio, Houston, Utah and Portland..

The Lakers are now 3-0 without Kobe Bryant, their best player, with wins over 3 playoff teams, including @ Utah, one of the toughest places to win in the NBA..

They lost to the 3 teams they beat without Kobe when Kobe was playing and Pau was out..

Now I'm not arguing that Kobe isn't their best player, he obviously is, but it is arguable that Pau Gasol is more valuable to the Lakers than Kobe Bryant?..

[Chieflion]

Last season, according to the stat, "Win Shares", which also means wins produced by the player, Kobe had a 12.7 WS while playing 82 games. Pau Gasol , on the other hand, produced a 13.9 WS, which means Pau Gasol produces more wins on the Lakers squad, while playing 81 games.

Beat that, Laker fans or should I say Kobe fans. By the way, how much funds did you use for the church?

[ace3g]

Pau is more valuable then Kobe for 3 reasons:

1. He gets easy tip ins/ layups/ dunks when the Lakers offense needs points

2. Typically gets key rebounds/tip outs

3. Refs respect his "yell" (I mean he yells on pretty much every play, including blocks, incase the refs were going to call him for a foul the "yell" makes it a clean block)

[mystargtr34]

Last season, according to the stat, "Win Shares", which also means wins produced by the player, Kobe had a 12.7 WS while playing 82 games. Pau Gasol , on the other hand, produced a 13.9 WS, which means Pau Gasol produces more wins on the Lakers squad, while playing 81 games.

Beat that, Laker fans or should I say Kobe fans. By the way, how much funds did you use for the church?

Pau Gasol 13.9 WS
Kobe Bryant 12.7 WS
Lakers 30-7 with Pau
Lakers 10-6 without Pau

Beat that!

[Phonzie20]

Confirming the international stereotype, he will continue to get certain whistles especially in a heated playoff series (dramatic flopping).

Pretty valuable for LA as it puts them over the top. He has size that he sometimes takes advantage of too.

[Donkeybong]

He's pretty good. His shot looks a lot better today. He was in a shooting slump since the cleveland game. He was getting points, but not shooting well. Looks much smoother tonight.

[Chieflion]

When the Kobe led Lakers would play the Pau led Grizzlies, it was an automatic win for the Lakers. Not to mention Pau had Battier, and Posey to try and stop Kobe.


Pau Gasol 13.9 WS
Kobe Bryant 12.7 WS
Lakers 30-7 with Pau
Lakers 10-6 without Pau

Beat that!
Enough said. Laker fan logic always fails. Good job mystargtr34.

[ace3g]

The same guy who couldn't win a playoff game before LA, right.

doesn't prevent the fact that Gasol was an all star caliber Center in Memphis, who didn't have any help and had to play the Spurs in couple of playoff series, so no wonder he never got a playoff win.


Typically talented big men have more impact and value on a team because they are usually grabbing the key boards or making game changing blocks in the paint.

and I agree, Kobe is the Lakers best player but not most valuable.

[Gutter92]

Kobe fans like lakaluva won't admit it, but LAKER fans will...Pau is just as important, if not more important, as Kobe Bryant.

[ChrisRichards]

I think the Lakers record are 150-25 since they acquired Gasol.

Kobe is their most talented player, but Gasol is the most valuable. He simply does a lot more for the Lakers than just scoring. He's a very underrated rebounder (3x 20 rebound games this season) and defender.


I dont understand when people say Gasol has'nt won without Kobe. I mean seriously, what has Kobe accomplished with Pau (Post Shaq era)?


Gasol's game is just natural. Everything he does comes within the flow of the game. Can't say the same for Kobe.

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe vs. Pau in the post-Shaq era, when both guys had their own teams..

Memphis was 8-4 vs. the Lakers in those games..I only used the search for head-to-head, so the stats might not be a 100%, but:

Kobe: 37.9% shooting, 27.2 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 4.2 APG..
Pau: 49.5% shooting, 20.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 3.6 APG..

Pau Gasol is just that valuable to his teams..

[LakerHater]

Well consider a KoMe-less team beat the Blazers, Spurs & Jazz!!

I'd say they're well off without KoMe!

[UrAphag]

Pau gasol makes the lakers mesh together VERY smoothly

[ChrisRichards]

If I'm Kobe, I come into practice next week pissed off and reaming asses. These fuckers should play this aggressive all the time, not when Kobe takes a vacation.
NOt possible when his ass barks at his teammates every damn offensive possession.


Look this is pretty telling "ordan Farmar said, Phil Jackson told him to fight the urge not to pass the ball to Kobe when he's asking for it.

[hhml]

Pau is more valuable then Kobe for 3 reasons:

1. He gets easy tip ins/ layups/ dunks when the Lakers offense needs points

2. Typically gets key rebounds/tip outs

3. Refs respect his "yell" (I mean he yells on pretty much every play, including blocks, incase the refs were going to call him for a foul the "yell" makes it a clean block)

That's where you're wrong. Pau doesn't get any respect from the refs at all.

[HarlemHeat37]

That's where you're wrong. Pau doesn't get any respect from the refs at all.

:wow:wow:wow:wow:wow

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[Pelicans78]

The simple fact that PJ had to tell his PG to do that says a lot. A true PG runs the offense, and dictate the pace. I;ve said for years the Lakers needed a PG to run the offense. Kobe would still get his, just like he did when the offense was run through Shaq.

I agree with that. Fisher honestly only cares about his own shots and Farmar hasn't been able to step up and run the team on a consistent basis.

[MiamiHeat]

The simple fact that PJ had to tell his PG to do that says a lot. A true PG runs the offense, and dictate the pace. I;ve said for years the Lakers needed a PG to run the offense. Kobe would still get his, just like he did when the offense was run through Shaq.

Cause that whole shaq thing worked out great, right?

kobe will destroy team chemistry if you don't allow him to hog the ball.

[hhml]

How valuable is Pau Gasol? The Lakers have yet to lose 3 in a row since converting him to a Laker.

[Nahtanoj]

Same ol argument. Jordan Pippen, Shaq Kobe, Kobe Gasol.

[picc84]

The difference is not Kobe off the floor, its Bynum off the floor.

[Phonzie20]

That's where you're wrong. Pau doesn't get any respect from the refs at all.

Wut?

homerism-alert

[hhml]

Wut?

homerism-alert

If you watch the Lakers on a daily basis you would know.

[JamStone]

Last season, according to the stat, "Win Shares", which also means wins produced by the player, Kobe had a 12.7 WS while playing 82 games. Pau Gasol , on the other hand, produced a 13.9 WS, which means Pau Gasol produces more wins on the Lakers squad, while playing 81 games.

Beat that, Laker fans or should I say Kobe fans. By the way, how much funds did you use for the church?


Pau Gasol 13.9 WS
Kobe Bryant 12.7 WS
Lakers 30-7 with Pau
Lakers 10-6 without Pau

Beat that!

This is a little tangental, but last year, Tim Duncan's WS was 10.1 and Dirk Nowitzki's WS was 10.9.

So, just curious, would you guys be of the opinion that Pau Gasol was already a better player than either Tim or Dirk last season?

[Chieflion]

This is a little tangental, but last year, Tim Duncan's WS was 10.1 and Dirk Nowitzki's WS was 10.9.

So, just curious, would you guys be of the opinion that Pau Gasol was already a better player than either Tim or Dirk last season?
Disagree. I only use Win shares to compare players from the same team or a player on a team with a comparable win total, like say LeBron James to Kobe Bryant last season when Bryant's team won 65 games and LeBron's team won 66, because the total of the entire team would equate to the win total of the season, which is 65 for the Lakers, and only 50+ for the Spurs and Mavs. For the record, LeBron James had a 20.3 Win Shares rating last season and already busted Kobe's total of 12.7 last season with 13.4 so far this season.

[TheMACHINE]

I LOVE IT! Spurs fans figuring out whos the real MVP on the Lakers squad cuz thier team is crap. Kobe or Pau...i dont give a fuck...just as long as we keep winning. buhahaha.

Carry on...this is amusing.

[Chieflion]

I LOVE IT! Spurs fans figuring out whos the real MVP on the Lakers squad cuz thier team is crap. Kobe or Pau...i dont give a fuck...just as long as we keep winning. buhahaha.

Carry on...this is amusing.
Just cause our team sucks means we can't talk basketball? Can Kori or timvp close this site down already cause Spurs fans can't talk basketball if our team sucks.

[TheMACHINE]

Just cause our team sucks means we can't talk basketball? Can Kori or timvp close this site down already cause Spurs fans can't talk basketball if our team sucks.

Ill assume you didnt read the "Carry on" part of my post. :downspin:

[Chieflion]

Ill assume you didnt read the "Carry on" part of my post. :downspin:
I'll assume that was sarcasm and leave it at that, Kobe fan.

[TheMACHINE]

I'll assume that was sarcasm and leave it at that, Kobe fan.

no sarcasm here. Go ahead and talk about how crappy Kobe is while your team continues to be crap. All good with me.

I'll even help you. I say we TRADE KOBE! Lets trade Kobe for Manu...nah..you guys dont want a ball hog like Kobe on your team.

[Chieflion]

no sarcasm here. Go ahead and talk about how crappy Kobe is while your team continues to be crap. All good with me.

I'll even help you. I say we TRADE KOBE! Lets trade Kobe for Manu...nah..you guys dont want a ball hog like Kobe on your team.
Nah. Trade Kobe to the Knicks or something. He might average 35 points again and get all of you on his bandwagon.

[TheMACHINE]

Nah. Trade Kobe to the Knicks or something. He might average 35 points again and get all of you on his bandwagon.

You're right...He should so he can get the Knicks to the playoffs.

[JamStone]

Disagree. I only use Win shares to compare players from the same team or a player on a team with a comparable win total, like say LeBron James to Kobe Bryant last season when Bryant's team won 65 games and LeBron's team won 66, because the total of the entire team would equate to the win total of the season, which is 65 for the Lakers, and only 50+ for the Spurs and Mavs. For the record, LeBron James had a 20.3 Win Shares rating last season and already busted Kobe's total of 12.7 last season with 13.4 so far this season.

Fair enough on the first point. But if that's how you view it, you shouldn't compare players on different teams period. Because obviously a guy on a more balanced team will likely not have a higher WS than a guy who basically does everything for his team, like guys like LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul.


Back to Kobe's WS though for a second. In the playoffs, Kobe had a higher WS than Pau. So, fair to say when it really mattered in the playoffs and in the NBA Finals, Kobe was more valuable. Would you agree with that?

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd say that's accurate..Kobe has had unbelievable playoff runs these last 2 years..

This thread is simply to point out Gasol's value and to get a discussion as to why he has been more valuable than Kobe in this current regular season..Kobe's shot selection? injuries?..

[Chieflion]

Fair enough on the first point. But if that's how you view it, you shouldn't compare players on different teams period. Because obviously a guy on a more balanced team will likely not have a higher WS than a guy who basically does everything for his team, like guys like LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul.


Back to Kobe's WS though for a second. In the playoffs, Kobe had a higher WS than Pau. So, fair to say when it really mattered in the playoffs and in the NBA Finals, Kobe was more valuable. Would you agree with that?
I would agree with that. But a sample size of 82 games is more telling than 23 games or something. And as of this season, Kobe played 51 games and had a 7.3 WS, but Gasol only played 36 games and already has a 6.2 WS, showing that last season wasn't a fluke. We can wait after this year's playoffs to see whether your statement that Kobe is more valuable in the playoffs whether it was a fluke or not. Because while Gasol was fighting the talented bigs in Orlando, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz, none of them have a good SG to challenge Kobe on a nightly basis.

I would disagree that comparing players on different teams with similar record is incorrect. Because the record of the teams are similar, we can gauge through win shares, to see which player is more valuable to their team, as is the premise of this thread.

[Killakobe81]

You guys are funny ... personally I dont care who is more valuable ... I watch EVERY Laker game so I already know ...
Does Kobe force or take some shots I wish he wouldn't? ABSOFUKINLUTELY!!!
Does Pau sometimes go up like a softass bitch when he should dunk the freakin' ball HELL YEAH!! (even my WIFE calls him a PUSSY!!!)
But when he plays like he has the past 3 games assertive and confident ...then I can hear the arguments he is the most skilled big man or as equally as valuable as Kobe etc.

I just dont see it enough. You can blame Kobe for some of that but I have seen that in LA and Memphis ...
Pau is a great player but not HOF'er IMHO as of yet ...Kobe is and is the MVP of our team ...

But to me the "key" or the X-factor is Lamar ...
Even as good as Pau is NO WAY we win the title last year or these last 3 games without Lamar stepping up. When he plays well we can win with Pau vacillating between the "the Spainard" and "Gasoft"

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

This thread is simply to point out Gasol's value and to get a discussion as to why he has been more valuable than Kobe in this current regular season..Kobe's shot selection? injuries?..

He hasn't been. And it's not close. Anybody saying otherwise doesn't properly understand basketball or is trolling.

You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it any less dumb.

[cobbler]

You guys are funny ... personally I dont care who is more valuable ... I watch EVERY Laker game so I already know ...
Does Kobe force or take some shots I wish he wouldn't? ABSOFUKINLUTELY!!!
Does Pau sometimes go up like a softass bitch when he should dunk the freakin' ball HELL YEAH!! (even my WIFE calls him a PUSSY!!!)
But when he plays like he has the past 3 games assertive and confident ...then I can hear the arguments he is the most skilled big man or as equally as valuable as Kobe etc.

I just dont see it enough. You can blame Kobe for some of that but I have seen that in LA and Memphis ...
Pau is a great player but not HOF'er IMHO as of yet ...Kobe is and is the MVP of our team ...

But to me the "key" or the X-factor is Lamar ...
Even as good as Pau is NO WAY we win the title last year or these last 3 games without Lamar stepping up. When he plays well we can win with Pau vacillating between the "the Spainard" and "Gasoft"

Touchee! Someone gets it. :toast

[JamStone]

I would disagree that comparing players on different teams with similar record is incorrect. Because the record of the teams are similar, we can gauge through win shares, to see which player is more valuable to their team, as is the premise of this thread.

I don't think it's comparable. A player that is relied on more will almost always have a higher WS than a comparably talented player who has more help and better talent around him who share the burden of winning.

For example, with your logic, I could argue that in their primes, Kevin Garnett was a better player than Tim Duncan because when the two of them actually played on teams with similar records, KG's WS was much, much higher than Tim Duncan's (2003-04). Or I could argue that Dirk was better than Tim Duncan as early as the 2005-06 season when Tim was still in his prime because Dirk had a much higher WS than Duncan that season.

But I don't necessarily think that way in either case. It's that Tim had better teammates who he unselfishly allowed to share in helping the team win, whereas both KG and Dirk had to carry their teams more in each of those seasons. Now, if you're prepared to agree that KG was better than Tim in their primes because when they both had great teams, KG's win share was greater and that Dirk was already better than Tim still in his prime back in 2005-06 because Dirk's win share was greater (much greater btw), then I guess you could use that aforementioned logic.

Me personally, I think a great player on a team with other great players simply won't have a higher WS than great players on teams that ask them to do everything. LeBron will always have one of the highest WS as long as he is asked to be a 30/7/7 type of guy for his team, while a guy like Kobe on a team with another great player in Gasol and a few other guys that can also share the burden of winning won't have as high a WS total.

[cobbler]

I would agree with that. But a sample size of 82 games is more telling than 23 games or something. And as of this season, Kobe played 51 games and had a 7.3 WS, but Gasol only played 36 games and already has a 6.2 WS, showing that last season wasn't a fluke. We can wait after this year's playoffs to see whether your statement that Kobe is more valuable in the playoffs whether it was a fluke or not. Because while Gasol was fighting the talented bigs in Orlando, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz, none of them have a good SG to challenge Kobe on a nightly basis.

I would disagree that comparing players on different teams with similar record is incorrect. Because the record of the teams are similar, we can gauge through win shares, to see which player is more valuable to their team, as is the premise of this thread.

but but but... :lmao

You brought up last years regular season WS stat to bash Kobe. Jam shows you that it was just the opposite scenario during the playoffs. Slam dunk.

ohhhh ohhhh ohhhh... now the WS stat isnt so valuable and maybe even a fluke since it doesnt support your obsession!

Is this now where you switch from statboy to the "I see the games with my eyes" so I know Kobe sucks?

[Chieflion]

I don't think it's comparable. A player that is relied on more will almost always have a higher WS than a comparably talented player who has more help and better talent around him who share the burden of winning.

For example, with your logic, I could argue that in their primes, Kevin Garnett was a better player than Tim Duncan because when the two of them actually played on teams with similar records, KG's WS was much, much higher than Tim Duncan's (2003-04). Or I could argue that Dirk was better than Tim Duncan as early as the 2005-06 season when Tim was still in his prime because Dirk had a much higher WS than Duncan that season.

But I don't necessarily think that way in either case. It's that Tim had better teammates who he unselfishly allowed to share in helping the team win, whereas both KG and Dirk had to carry their teams more in each of those seasons. Now, if you're prepared to agree that KG was better than Tim in their primes because when they both had great teams, KG's win share was greater and that Dirk was already better than Tim still in his prime back in 2005-06 because Dirk's win share was greater (much greater btw), then I guess you could use that aforementioned logic.

Me personally, I think a great player on a team with other great players simply won't have a higher WS than great players on teams that ask them to do everything. LeBron will always have one of the highest WS as long as he is asked to be a 30/7/7 type of guy for his team, while a guy like Kobe on a team with another great player in Gasol and a few other guys that can also share the burden of winning won't have as high a WS total.
Good, you just answered why LeBron is more valuable than Kobe and why Kobe is a ballhog who takes too many shots for the good of his team. You also answered why when you have better teammates, you don't need to do too much, which was why the player who is more valuable to his team, wins the MVP. Again, this thread premises on more valuable, not the best, so take it for its worth. I am not arguing who the better player is. I am arguing who the more valuable player is. There is no doubt that in 2004, Garnett was more valuable to the Wolves than Duncan is to the Spurs, because he did everything while Dirk was more valuable because he was needed more. I have no problem with that.


but but but... :lmao

You brought up last years regular season WS stat to bash Kobe. Jam shows you that it was just the opposite scenario during the playoffs. Slam dunk.

ohhhh ohhhh ohhhh... now the WS stat isnt so valuable and maybe even a fluke since it doesnt support your obsession!

Is this now where you switch from statboy to the "I see the games with my eyes" so I know Kobe sucks?

See above, crybaby Laker fan. Oh, and read the explanations. You get win shares for putting up better stats than your counterpart and by winning. How difficult was it for Kobe to outproduce J.R Smith, Shane Battier, Courtney Lee and Ronnie Brewer in the playoffs?

[JamStone]

Good, you just answered why LeBron is more valuable than Kobe and why Kobe is a ballhog who takes too many shots for the good of his team. You also answered why when you have better teammates, you don't need to do too much, which was why the player who is more valuable to his team, wins the MVP. Again, this thread premises on more valuable, not the best, so take it for its worth. I am not arguing who the better player is. I am arguing who the more valuable player is. There is no doubt that in 2004, Garnett was more valuable to the Wolves than Duncan is to the Spurs, because he did everything while Dirk was more valuable because he was needed more. I have no problem with that.

LeBron more valuable in order for his team to win? Sure. Actually, absolutely. I think most people, even Laker fans, would agree with that.

I just got the feeling that you were suggesting that being more "valuable" equated to being "better." If that's not the case, then that's my bad. That's the direction it seemed you were taking it.

Gasol is definitely valuable to the Lakers in order for them to be elite. The Lakers from 2004 to 2007 proved as much, that Kobe needed help in the front court to bring the Lakers back to a championship level.

But, I don't think there's any question who is the Lakers' best player. And, when it counts, in the playoffs, Kobe is the most valuable player for the Lakers chances to win.

edit: for the record, I still don't look at WS as that determinative in terms of showing value. I think the DWS are skewed because they don't really accurately gauge defense. And, bigs have an advantage against perimeter players in win shares because stats used to gauge WS favor big men. For example, defensively bigs will almost always have an advantage in rebounding rate and they have another stat in blocks they should excel at over a perimeter player while perimeter players only have steals to their advantage over bigs. Additionally, offensively, bigs will generally have better FG%, true shooting, and efficiency because they mostly shoot around the rim. So, I don't think it's entirely an accurate gauge. Last year, Paul had more WS but Kobe had a higher PER, which is also often used to gauge how good a player is.

[Capt Bringdown]

Gasol's the best big man in the league today.

[Quit Hatin']

Yup we should trade Kobe for a bag of chips while he's still worth something.(sarcasm)

[Phonzie20]

Yup we should trade Kobe for a bag of chips while he's still worth something.(sarcasm)

I doubt you would inherent the dominant center persona.

[Ghazi]

over 82 games kobeless lakers win less games than pauless lakers.

this is just a 3 game sample against an equally injured blazers team, a shitty spurs team.... and well the Jazz... this was a super impressive win.

[timvp]

It's funny how sensitive Laker Fan is about his team. They don't even like compliments.


Pau Gasol is a great player


:madrun :madrun :madrun

[Rogue]

It's funny how sensitive Laker Fan is about his team. They don't even like compliments.
you're not the right person to use this term though.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Gasol's the best big man in the league today.


Except he isn't when he plays against a tough defensive front line in a playoff atmosphere.

[TheManFromAcme]

If the Lakers had a internal MVP award it would have to go to Pau even with his injuries. Kobe hasn't been Kobe this season and much of it has to do with his injuries and mileage and to be honest with you I doubt we would have the 41-13 record right now w/o Pau. A Gasol-less 2009-2010 Laker team would not be near this record. Truth.
Fellow Laker fan at some point has to admit that Kobe is not the sole backbone of this Laker team. Important piece alright, but not the one and only important piece. At least that's my opinion.

[pauls931]

The same guy who couldn't win a playoff game before LA, right.

Just like that guy who couldn't win a title before going to boston.

[Double-Up]

If the Lakers had a internal MVP award it would have to go to Pau even with his injuries. Kobe hasn't been Kobe this season and much of it has to do with his injuries and mileage and to be honest with you I doubt we would have the 41-13 record right now w/o Pau. A Gasol-less 2009-2010 Laker team would not be near this record. Truth.
Fellow Laker fan at some point has to admit that Kobe is not the sole backbone of this Laker team. Important piece alright, but not the one and only important piece. At least that's my opinion.

+1 lakerfan.

[bostonguy]

He is very vital. Gasol's aggressiveness is going to determine the Lakers fate in the postseason. The Gasol I have seen the past few games is the one I saw all of last year. He was all over the place on both sides and playing with such fire. Lakers need that Gasol. When Gasol/Odom are playing like that, LA is damn near impossible to beat in a 7 game series.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Lost in all this hoopla about how the Lakers are playing well without Kobe is how good of a coach Phil Jackson is. They wouldn't be playing this well without Kobe and Bynum if he wasn't so good at letting players play to their strengths.

[bostonguy]

Lost in all this hoopla about how the Lakers are playing well without Kobe is how good of a coach Phil Jackson is. They wouldn't be playing this well without Kobe and Bynum if he wasn't so good at letting players play to their strengths.

Even Sasha has had a couple of good games. :lmao

[The Gemini Method]

Even Sasha has had a couple of good games. :lmao

That, in my opinion, is more impressive than what Pau is doing. If you can get that Slovenian Corpse to do something other than put product in his hair and think about Sharapova, then you've accomplished something.

[Johnny RIngo]

Last season, according to the stat, "Win Shares", which also means wins produced by the player, Kobe had a 12.7 WS while playing 82 games. Pau Gasol , on the other hand, produced a 13.9 WS, which means Pau Gasol produces more wins on the Lakers squad, while playing 81 games.

Beat that, Laker fans or should I say Kobe fans. By the way, how much funds did you use for the church?

Kobe's impact has always been overrated. Even worse is the ridiculous notion that he was the best player of the 2000s despite the fact that he NEVER led the league in PER or win shares. Hell, Lebron has more win shares right now(at only the half point in the season) than Kobe did in all of last year.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Lost in all this hoopla about how the Lakers are playing well without Kobe is how good of a coach Phil Jackson is. They wouldn't be playing this well without Kobe and Bynum if he wasn't so good at letting players play to their strengths.

Then why is Phil playing Derek Fisher more minutes than Farmar? Jordan has completely outplayed Derek in January/Feb.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

If the Lakers had a internal MVP award it would have to go to Pau even with his injuries.

No it would not go to Pau Gasol. Completely ridiculous.

[DazedAndConfused]

You have to remember Kobe has been playing banged up for some time now. When the season started and he was actually healthy he was absolutely on fire, shooting > 50% from the field. There were talks of him being the #1 MVP candidate.

Ever since his nagging finger, ankle, and back injuries he hasn't been quite the same player.

[TheManFromAcme]

No it would not go to Pau Gasol. Completely ridiculous.


Doubtful

My opinion nonetheless.

[Baseline]

Gasol is the MVP of the Lakers. I don't think there's any question about that, but it has taken Bryant sitting out for a lot of Laker fans to realize this.

To me it has been obvious since about a month after Gasol came to LA. His transition to the new team was phenomenal, and he was not only a perfect fit, he elevated the play of other guys with his unselfish and multi-skilled game.

Bryant, on the other hand, is a control freak and a spotlight freak. Before the Gasol trade, his future was to go no further than a conference final with "his" team. Shipping Shaquille out of town proved to be a horrible move, and it would have gone down in NBA history as one of the most selfish moves ever had the Gasol trade not bailed him out.

The Gasol trade has actually masked the biggest shortcoming of Bryant's game - his selfishness. To me, Bryant has solidified himself as a second banana. A very good second banana, but a second banana nonetheless.

Bryant isn't capable of putting a team on his back and taking them past the first round of the playoffs. That has been proven very clearly. He even missed the playoffs entirely one year after Shaquille was gone.

But when he has a skilled big man on his team, it covers Bryant's shortcomings and minimizes his selfish instincts.

You certainly won't hear Bryant say this, but Pau Gasol is the reason Bryant is even relevant anymore.

[Allanon]

Meh, I'd rather the Lakers would have kept his tougher brother Marc.

Lakers would be better defensively and much tougher in the paint.

There's a reason why Spurfan kept calling Pau "Gasoft"; you would never say that of Marc.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL Marc Gasol is so overrated..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Then why is Phil playing Derek Fisher more minutes than Farmar?


What are you saying? Phil's a horrible coach because he trusts a PG he's won 4 championships with more than a guy who at times can be extremely selfish?

[DAF86]

Meh, I'd rather the Lakers would have kept his tougher brother Marc.

Lakers would be better defensively and much tougher in the paint.

There's a reason why Spurfan kept calling Pau "Gasoft"; you would never say that of Marc.

Stop it man you know very well that Pau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marc

Without Pau you wouldn't have made it to the NBA finals the last two seasons.

[The Gemini Method]

I don't know where Allanon gets his greenery, but I would like to know the name and phone number of his dispensary. There is no way Marc is even close to being better than Pau. I wouldn't rescind this trade no way, no how. What's the record? 150-29 when Pau plays for the Lakers? I don't think for one second that we would have that record if we kept Marc instead of picking up Pau.

[Allanon]

Stop it man you know very well that Pau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marc

Without Pau you wouldn't have made it to the NBA finals the last two seasons.

Pau > Marc offensively. nick-named "gaSOFT"

Marc > Pau defensively. nick-named "The Spanish Tank"

If Pau was really that great, Spurfan would not have called him "gaSOFT".

I can find hundreds of threads with Spurfans calling him a pussy...just at this site alone :lol

Defense wins championships.

[HarlemHeat37]

Pau >>> Marc offensively..
Pau > Marc defensively..
Marc > Pau in toughness..

Despite Pau being soft, he's a very good defender..Marc Gasol definitely isn't better than Pau from a defensive standpoint, being bigger doesn't mean you're better defensively..all the numbers say Pau is significantly better defensively, and watching them brings the same results..Marc Gasol is a walking foul..

[Allanon]

Where were all you Pau defenders hiding when everybody was calling him "gaSOFT" after the 2008 Finals?

:lol

[DAF86]

Pau > Marc offensively. nick-named "gaSOFT"

Marc > Pau defensively. nick-named "The Spanish Tank"

If Pau was really that great, Spurfan would not have called him "gaSOFT". I can find hundreds of threads with that nickname here at ST alone.

Defense wins championships.

Gasol might be the most underated defensive player in the league, with his height he changes a lot of shots inside, besides he's arguably the quickest bigman in the league and he's turning into a rebounding machine.

Pau: 11.2 rbds and 1.8 blks per game in 36.7 min.

Marc: 9.5 rbds and 1.6 blks per game in 35.5 min.

[Allanon]

I have to go but as I said, where were all the Pau defenders when everybody was calling him gaSOFT after the 2008 Finals.

I don't remember any Spurfans defending the great Pau Gasol then.

I'll answer your responses later tonight.

[picc84]

What are you saying? Phil's a horrible coach because he trusts a PG he's won 4 championships with more than a guy who at times can be extremely selfish?

You don't know shit. Fisher is JUST as selfish as Farmar is. Which is even worse because his old ass should know better by now.

[picc84]

LA wins 3 games with Kobe out and Gasol is the mvp. On a spurs board that hates Bryant like he raped their mothers. What a shock.

[HarlemHeat37]

Gasol IS soft when certain guys go at him..how does that have any effect on his defensive ability though?..his defensive ability is pretty obvious..

I don't understand why some of you guys are getting so mad anyways(the poster above me for example)..I was just stating the facts so we could have a civilized argument..I even said that Kobe is obviously the Lakers' best player..what's the problem?..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You don't know shit. Fisher is JUST as selfish as Farmar is. Which is even worse because his old ass should know better by now.


When Fisher is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 113.0 and 106 when he's off the court. When Farmar is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 108.3, and when off the court LA has an offensive rating of 111.4. The stats don't lie, LA's offense runs better with Fisher at point over Farmar.

[ChrisRichards]

When Fisher is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 113.0 and 106 when he's off the court. When Farmar is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 108.3, and when off the court LA has an offensive rating of 111.4. The stats don't lie, LA's offense runs better with Fisher at point over Farmar.
Fuck the stats. Fisher sucks.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Fuck the stats. Fisher sucks.


Yet his team does better with him on the court than Farmar.

[ChrisRichards]

Yet his team does better with him on the court than Farmar.
Dude, you watch Laker games? Fisher does'nt make the extra pass nor run the triangle. He cant finish at all. Its sad that Fisher is revered so much based on his reputation. He's as bad as Kobe when it comes to shot selection.

Fisher also shoots a worst % than Farmar and has the lowest PER among starting point guards (9.3) to Farmars 13.8.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dude, you watch Laker games? Fisher does'nt make the extra pass nor run the triangle. He cant finish at all. Its sad that Fisher is revered so much based on his reputation. He's as bad as Kobe when it comes to shot selection.

Fisher also shoots a worst % than Farmar and has the lowest PER among starting point guards (9.3) to Farmars 13.8.


All I know is the Lakers are a better team with Fisher on the court. Farmar is a better individual player, but you can't deny stats that clearly show Phil has a reason to play Fish over Farmar.

Also, Fisher's shot selection might suck, but he's last on LA at shots attempted per minute.

[jacobdrj]

The Lakers are 30-7 this season with Pau Gasol in the lineup..

They are 10-6 without him, losing by major blowouts to the majority of the playoff teams they faced, including Denver, San Antonio, Houston, Utah and Portland..

The Lakers are now 3-0 without Kobe Bryant, their best player, with wins over 3 playoff teams, including @ Utah, one of the toughest places to win in the NBA..

They lost to the 3 teams they beat without Kobe when Kobe was playing and Pau was out..

Now I'm not arguing that Kobe isn't their best player, he obviously is, but it is arguable that Pau Gasol is more valuable to the Lakers than Kobe Bryant?..
Well, he basically got the Lakers to the '08 Finals, and with better chemestry and better health, ensured that Kobe could be free to do his thing to help them win the '09 championship. Without Pau, the Lakers would not have won. Not to say there aren't any other players that could have helped the Lakers win, like, say: Duncan, KG, Dwight, or even Shaq (granted a bit of a stretch) but Pau was the one there, and he did it, so, yeah, he is pretty damn important, and the Lakers should thank their lucky stars they could pair him with Kobe. Kobe may be the emotional leader and top scorer, but it is Pau that made the team elite...

[mystargtr34]

All I know is the Lakers are a better team with Fisher on the court. Farmar is a better individual player, but you can't deny stats that clearly show Phil has a reason to play Fish over Farmar.

Also, Fisher's shot selection might suck, but he's last on LA at shots attempted per minute.

I would argue Fisher>Farmar aswell, just based on the fact Fisher has a brain and is less proned to fuck up. But when looking at those stats, you have to remember that Fisher plays the majority/nearly all of his minutes with Kobe + Pau + Bynum/Odom. Farmar on the other hand, plays most of his minutes with the second unit... normally involving two or three of a combination between Brown/Vujacic/Walton/Powell.

I think that may be why there is such a disparity.

[RsxPiimp]

I would argue Fisher>Farmar aswell, just based on the fact Fisher has a brain and is less proned to fuck up. But when looking at those stats, you have to remember that Fisher plays the majority/nearly all of his minutes with Kobe + Pau + Bynum/Odom. Farmar on the other hand, plays most of his minutes with the second unit... normally involving two or three of a combination between Brown/Vujacic/Walton/Powell.

I think that may be why there is such a disparity.

Bingo

[picc84]

When Fisher is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 113.0 and 106 when he's off the court. When Farmar is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 108.3, and when off the court LA has an offensive rating of 111.4. The stats don't lie, LA's offense runs better with Fisher at point over Farmar.

When Fisher is on the court, guess who else is? The motherfucking STARTERS.

[picc84]

I would argue Fisher>Farmar aswell, just based on the fact Fisher has a brain and is less proned to fuck up. But when looking at those stats, you have to remember that Fisher plays the majority/nearly all of his minutes with Kobe + Pau + Bynum/Odom. Farmar on the other hand, plays most of his minutes with the second unit... normally involving two or three of a combination between Brown/Vujacic/Walton/Powell.

I think that may be why there is such a disparity.

Fisher does not have a brain. He hasn't had a brain for 2 years. Both Farmar and Shannon Brown are better than Fisher is, and do more for the team than Fisher does, and its not even close.

[IronMexican]

All I know is the Lakers are a better team with Fisher on the court. Farmar is a better individual player, but you can't deny stats that clearly show Phil has a reason to play Fish over Farmar.

Also, Fisher's shot selection might suck, but he's last on LA at shots attempted per minute.

Fisher is on the court with the starters more. Might have something to do with it.

[j-money24]

you guys need to stop riding Gasols dick, which is true, we cant win a championship without him but we also wont win a championship without kobe... and to be fair, Odom has been more valuable for the Lakers 3 wins then Pau.. which he is the reason why the Lakers are playing so good without him.. Odom should be starting instead of plastic knees and the Lakers will then be UNSTOPPABLE..

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

When Fisher is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 113.0 and 106 when he's off the court.

You don't watch enough Lakers game. Fisher plays most of his minutes with the starters. Farmar has to play a lot of his minutes with Sasha, DJ, Morrison, Powell and Luke.


When Farmar is on the court, LA has an offensive rating of 108.3, and when off the court LA has an offensive rating of 111.4. The stats don't lie, LA's offense runs better with Fisher at point over Farmar.

Yes stats, especially team stats do fucking lie. Farmar is clearly the better offensive and defensive player. He also runs the offense better. Yes he shoots more than he should but that's what the Lakers want from him off the bench. They want him to push the tempo and he does a great job at it.

I never said Phil was a horrible coach (which you claimed earlier in this thread). But Phil Jackson is petty, stubborn and prefers vets over young guys. And he is currently starting and playing the inferior point guard. Farmar would be starting over Fish on any other team. Phil is loyal to Fish and clearly has personal issues with Farmar's attitude.

In Farmar's defense though; most young players would have an attitude if their coach constantly started an inferior player over them. This isn't the first time it's happened either. Phil started Kwame Brown over Bynum despite Andrew outplaying him most of the time.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

I would argue Fisher>Farmar aswell, just based on the fact Fisher has a brain and is less proned to fuck up.

Fisher's brain is overrated. I could point to thousands of examples of Fish pulling up for a contested jumper on a 4 v1 fastbreak. He's a liability on both ends of the court this year for the first 46 minutes of the game. He's clutch in the final couple minutes, but that's about it.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Doubtful

No. The mere notion that Pau is the Lakers MVP is completely and totally ridic.


My opinion nonetheless.

A wrong and stupid opinion.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

All I know is the Lakers are a better team with Fisher on the court. Farmar is a better individual player, but you can't deny stats that clearly show Phil has a reason to play Fish over Farmar.

:lol. Put Fisher on the court with the second unit and the Lakers bench would be the worst in the league. Fisher isn't even a point guard and the 2nd unit would fall apart without Jordan.

While Jordan should be starting based on talent, I'm glad he isn't based on the above logic.


Also, Fisher's shot selection might suck, but he's last on LA at shots attempted per minute.

Fisher's FG% is also the 4th worst on the team. And he's starting. Think about that.

[Unforgivable]

Damn, this Ode to Triple Ocho faggot is one pussy hurt semen guzzling cuckold.

[picc84]

This is the points per minute production of every lineup the Lakers have run this season that has played over 10 minutes together, from most productive to least productive.

1. J. Farmar S. Vujacic K. Bryant L. Odom A. Bynum 10:03 1.390
2. S. Brown K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 16:32 .907
3. D. Fisher S. Brown K. Bryant L. Odom A. Bynum 30:30 .885
4. J. Farmar K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 36:01 .721
5. J. Farmar S. Brown L. Walton L. Odom A. Bynum 23:58 .709
6. J. Farmar S. Vujacic K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 23:16 .687
7. J. Farmar K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom D. Mbenga 11:50 .591
8. J. Farmar S. Brown K. Bryant P. Gasol A. Bynum 13:33 .589
9. S. Brown D. Fisher K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 34:27 .580
10. J. Farmar S. Brown R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 42:04 .546
11. J. Farmar K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 45:36 .526
12. J. Farmar S. Brown K. Bryant J. Powell A. Bynum 29:52 .502
13. J. Farmar S. Vujacic R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 10:25 .479
14. J. Farmar S. Brown K. Bryant L. Odom D. Mbenga 12:17 .407
15. J. Farmar S. Brown L. Odom R. Artest A. Bynum 37:48 .370
16. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom D. Mbenga 29:53 .368
17. D. Fisher S. Vujacic K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 14:36 .342
18. S. Brown K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 22:35 .339
19. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest P. Gasol A. Bynum 415:30 .269
20. J. Farmar S. Brown K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 93:22 .224
21. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 156:55 .159
22. D. Fisher K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol A. Bynum 75:51 .131
23. D. Fisher S. Vujacic K. Bryant L. Odom A. Bynum 23:33 .127
24. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 352:32 .085

Out of the top 15 lineups in point production per minute, Fisher is in 2 of them. Of the bottom 10, he is in 7.

In direct comparison of lineups with Farmar/Fisher playing with groups of starters + Odom:

Players --> minutes together --> pts/minute

24. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 156:55 .159
7. J. Farmar K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom P. Gasol 36:01 .721

13. S. Brown D. Fisher K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 34:27 .580
23. J. Farmar S. Brown K. Bryant L. Odom P. Gasol 93:22 .224

27. D. Fisher K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 352:32 .085
14. J. Farmar K. Bryant R. Artest L. Odom A. Bynum 45:36 .526

Farmar hasn't just played better with the starters this year, but a lot better. He plays better with the starters. He plays better with Odom. He plays better with Odom and the starters together. He plays better with the bench.

And the reason for that is simple. He's 1000x better basketball player than Fisher is. He and Shannon Brown. The fact is, whenever Fisher is on the floor, i'm just praying we survive until the bench guards come in. If you gave me all of his veteran "leadership" and "experience" and turned it into money, I wouldn't be able to pay a hooker to smell her fart. The only thing he's good for is shooting at the end of the game. Every Derek Fisher boxscore should read like this:

Fisher: Pts - 3, Minutes - 1

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

you guys need to stop riding Gasols dick, which is true, we cant win a championship without him but we also wont win a championship without kobe... and to be fair, Odom has been more valuable for the Lakers 3 wins then Pau.. which he is the reason why the Lakers are playing so good without him.. Odom should be starting instead of plastic knees and the Lakers will then be UNSTOPPABLE..

Gasol is a great player but he's no Lakers MVP.

Odom is playing out of his mind right now, which he seems to do every year. The problem with Odom is he only plays like that 1/4 of the season. He has the all the tools to become one of the greatest players ever -- instead he chose to smoke pounds of weed. :hat

[DPG21920]

All I know is, when you watch this Laker team without Kobe you can see clearly how much better his supporting cast is than anyone else's. That is not a knock, but the truth. Kudos for building such an amazing team.

This certainly puts to bed the Cavs supporting cast vs LA's supporting cast argument. If the Cavs lost Lebron + a key big, they would be losing by 12-15 points a game. Instead, you get LA cruising by teams that are in the playoffs out West.

[Killakobe81]

Gasol is a great player but he's no Lakers MVP.

Odom is playing out of his mind right now, which he seems to do every year. The problem with Odom is he only plays like that 1/4 of the season. He has the all the tools to become one of the greatest players ever -- instead he chose to smoke pounds of weed. :hat

Pau is more valuable definitely but Lamar is the key to another title you can count on the other two guys ... 20 and 10 and 25 5 5 (Pau and Kobe)

[picc84]

All I know is, when you watch this Laker team without Kobe you can see clearly how much better his supporting cast is than anyone else's. That is not a knock, but the truth. Kudos for building such an amazing team.

Denver without Melo was smoking playoff teams. New Orleans without CP3 is beating playoff teams. The Jazz lost Deron Williams and beat the Lebrons anyway. Apparently the Lakers outside of Kobe dont hold a patent on not folding like a deck of cards.


This certainly puts to bed the Cavs supporting cast vs LA's supporting cast argument. If the Cavs lost Lebron + a key big, they would be losing by 12-15 points a game. Instead, you get LA cruising by teams that are in the playoffs out West.

How do you know that? How many times have you seen it to make the call?

I remember the Cavs last season played a game without Lebron, Mo Williams, Delonte West, or Ilgauskus, and the 76ers who were fighting for playoff positioning at the time needed overtime to beat them by 2 points. And that was vs the Cavs bench scrubs. This isnt the Cavs from 2007, they have a very good team of players who function as a team.

[DPG21920]

Please and LMFAO at the "how do you know that" card being pulled. Use your little Laker brain.

I am sure those teams you mentioned were missing their best player (arguably the best in the league) + another legit, talented 7 footer and did this:

Beat Utah in Utah: +15

Beat San Antonio: +12

Beat Portland in Portland (where they were 0-9 their last 9 times): +17

No one said the Cavs have a shit team. But some are arguing that they are more talented than the Lakers. Which is stupid.

[picc84]

I didnt say they were more talented the Lakers cast. I was responding to this:


If the Cavs lost Lebron + a key big, they would be losing by 12-15 points a game.

Which is pure bullshit and unsupported by anything aside from your little spurs imagination.

[DPG21920]

Please. It is called logic and common sense. You are basing your argument off the fact that CLE for one game was missing players and only lost by two to a team that sucks complete ass this year?

If CLE lost Lebron James and lets say Anderson V. for a string of games and played UTAH in UTAH, POR in POR and SA (even though they are terrible), not only would they likely not win (by double digits), they would likely lose by double digits.

Also :lol at picking out one thing and clinging to it when it does not take away from the point of my OP. Which was that many of your brothers were arguing that CLE supporting cast > LA's.

[DPG21920]

Denver without Melo was smoking playoff teams. New Orleans without CP3 is beating playoff teams. The Jazz lost Deron Williams and beat the Lebrons anyway. Apparently the Lakers outside of Kobe dont hold a patent on not folding like a deck of cards.



How do you know that? How many times have you seen it to make the call?

I remember the Cavs last season played a game without Lebron, Mo Williams, Delonte West, or Ilgauskus, and the 76ers who were fighting for playoff positioning at the time needed overtime to beat them by 2 points. And that was vs the Cavs bench scrubs. This isnt the Cavs from 2007, they have a very good team of players who function as a team.


I didnt say they were more talented the Lakers cast. I was responding to this:



Which is pure bullshit and unsupported by anything aside from your little spurs imagination.

Also, if you only took issue to that portion, why bring up NO & the Jazz?

[DazedAndConfused]

Earlier in the season when Kobe was 100% physically he was playing some truly amazing basketball. Probably the best of his career. Shooting over 50% from the field, great shot selection, finding teammates, etc. Since his never ending list of nagging injuries has piled up his efficiency has taken a marked drop and I would say his performance at times is detrimental to the team.

However, when Kobe is on the floor other players have to stop deferring to Kobe all of the time. They are simply lazy and would rather have Bryant shoulder the pressure. What you are seeing now is a team that doesn't have its crutch and realizing that they need to give 100% effort in order to win games.

Another point that is not being mentioned is the fact that Bynum is out as well. It's no secret the Laker's offense runs best when Odom and Pau are together. That, more than anything, is the reason why the Lakers appear to be gelling so well right now. They have length, speed, and quickness at every position and they are running the triangle to perfection.

[j.dizzle]

Earlier in the season when Kobe was 100% physically he was playing some truly amazing basketball. Probably the best of his career. Shooting over 50% from the field, great shot selection, finding teammates, etc. Since his never ending list of nagging injuries has piled up his efficiency has taken a marked drop and I would say his performance at times is detrimental to the team.

However, when Kobe is on the floor other players have to stop deferring to Kobe all of the time. They are simply lazy and would rather have Bryant shoulder the pressure. What you are seeing now is a team that doesn't have its crutch and realizing that they need to give 100% effort in order to win games.

Another point that is not being mentioned is the fact that Bynum is out as well. It's no secret the Laker's offense runs best when Odom and Pau are together. That, more than anything, is the reason why the Lakers appear to be gelling so well right now. They have length, speed, and quickness at every position and they are running the triangle to perfection.
Son, dont worry..Zenmaster has a nice big smile on his face as I type. Any coach in the league would love to have his problems right now..Hmmm what do I do when my superstar & 15&10 center come back? :lol

[picc84]

Please. It is called logic and common sense. You are basing your argument off the fact that CLE for one game was missing players and only lost by two to a team that sucks complete ass this year?

They were missing the entire starting lineup. And against a team that took the Magic to as many games as Lebron did in the ECF.

And that was last year, when they were worse. So obviously they're a little better than your agenda wants them to be. :lol


If CLE lost Lebron James and lets say Anderson V. for a string of games and played UTAH in UTAH, POR in POR and SA (even though they are terrible), not only would they likely not win (by double digits), they would likely lose by double digits.

Why? Because YOU say so? :wakeup The Hornets lost CP3 and raped the Celtics, so clearly these NBA teams are not as bad as you think they are. And the Hornets w/o CP are WORSE than the Cavs w/o Lebron. If they played the SA Geriatrics at home, they would probably win. If they played Portland minus Roy, Outlaw, Oden, etc. like we did, they would probably win. And if they played Utah on the tail end of a b2b they would at least have a chance. lol @ you thinking the Cavs are still playing Drew Gooden and Eric Snow. :lol


Also at picking out one thing and clinging to it when it does not take away from the point of my OP. Which was that many of your brothers were arguing that CLE supporting cast > LA's.

That wasn't the point of your OP. :lol


Also, if you only took issue to that portion, why bring up NO & the Jazz?

What part of me bringing that up makes you think i'm saying the Cavs outside of Lebron are better than the Lakers outside of Kobe?

I'm just pointing out that a lot of teams have lost key players and gone on to win big games. It doesn't mean that the Lakers have more talent than the rest of the league. Winning a few games w/o a star player doesn't mean shit. Everybody does that.

Cause the Jazz beat the Lebrons w/o Deron, does that mean they're the best team in the league? Should we favor them for the title? Cause the Hornets started raping teams after CP3 went down, does that mean they should waive him? They beat the Celtics, and the Magic needed a 50 point game from 2002 Vince Carter to beat them. Damn, NO must be a top 3 talent in the league. :hat

The Lakers last 3 games doesn't prove they're the most talented team in the league. And the Cavs would still beat good teams if they lost Lebron, some of them comfortably. Thats what i'm saying, not that Varejao and Mo Williams are better than Odom and Gasol.

[DPG21920]

Winning a few games? Or rolling teams by double digits that are in the West playoffs? Also, if you don't think my OP was about people saying CLE's supporting cast > LA's, then why did I say this:




All I know is, when you watch this Laker team without Kobe you can see clearly how much better his supporting cast is than anyone else's. That is not a knock, but the truth. Kudos for building such an amazing team.

This certainly puts to bed the Cavs supporting cast vs LA's supporting cast argument. If the Cavs lost Lebron + a key big, they would be losing by 12-15 points a game. Instead, you get LA cruising by teams that are in the playoffs out West.

Also, no, if the Cavs lost Lebron + Andy and played the teams LA did, they would not win. How do you know they would? Have you seen them do it and win by double digits? If not, it is just your unfounded speculation.

Also, how do you know the Hornets without CP3 are worse than the Cavs without Lebron? How did you come to that conclusion?

[ChrisRichards]

However, when Kobe is on the floor other players have to stop deferring to Kobe all of the time. They are simply lazy and would rather have Bryant shoulder the pressure. What you are seeing now is a team that doesn't have its crutch and realizing that they need to give 100% effort in order to win games.
Kobe's teammates does not defer to him as most of you so called Laker fans put it.


Half of the time Kobe dribbles the ball for 18 seconds and passes it to a unaware teammate who is not in position or rhythm. So naturally they pass the ball back to Kobe so that he can make his ESPN highlight 20 footer shot clock buzzer beater..


The other half when his teammates sets up the offense, Kobe freaking BARKS at them for not passing the ball. He constantly berates these guys when they miss a shot. im like Kobe, are you fucking kidding me? You have the worst shot selection and is a career 45% shooter and you're going to get mad at Lamar or Pau Gasol because they missed a shot? Get fucking real.

Id like to try his shit at Ron Artest. Ron will break his neck if he even says a word in his face. He can't handle Ron lol.


Son, that's not basketball.

[picc84]

Winning a few games? Or rolling teams by double digits that are in the West playoffs?

Son, i'm not saying the Lakers aren't good without Kobe. I said beating the Geriatrics, the corpse of the Blazers, and Utah on a b2b for 3 games doesn't mean they're the most talented team in the league. The Nuggets lost Melo and beat the dogshit out of the full strength Lakers and the Spurs. Good teams survive one way or another.



Also, if you don't think my OP was about people saying CLE's supporting cast > LA's, then why did I say this

"ANYONE ELSE" = the Cavaliers? I thought you were talking about the entire league, since thats who ANYONE ELSE is. :wakeup


Also, no, if the Cavs lost Lebron + Andy and played the teams LA did, they would not win. How do you know they would? Have you seen them do it and win by double digits? If not, it is just your unfounded speculation.

Then we're clear, we both dont know shit, only i'm not the one who gets mad at "unfounded speculation" after telling people EXACTLY what would happen in a future hypothetical situation. :lol

[DPG21920]

No, it is called using logic. You can speculate that something can happen by knowing enough about it.

Also, I specifically referenced CLE. Also, yes, LA has the most talented team overall. But especially over CLE, which was a point of debate.

[Goran Dragic]

Trying to argue Lebron has a better supporting cast than Kobe is one of the funniest things Lakerfan tries to do.

[cobbler]

Half of the time Kobe dribbles the ball for 18 seconds and passes it to a unaware teammate who is not in position or rhythm. So naturally they pass the ball back to Kobe so that he can make his ESPN highlight 20 footer shot clock buzzer beater...

Really? 50% of the time Kobe dribbles the ball for 18 seconds? Laughable! Just another completely made up BS stat with no foundation in reality.

They pass the ball to Kobe when the shot clock is winding down just like all teams look for their go to guy in those situations. The problem is they grow to depend on him bailing them out or taking the heat and expect it too often. And Kobe being the competitor he is has no problem taking it. Now that he's not around they either step up or bite it. They are stepping up and I hope they continue to do so when Kobe and Drew return. The happy medium where the supporting cast is agressive and Kobe throttles it down a tad are when the Lakers are untouchable.



The other half when his teammates sets up the offense, Kobe freaking BARKS at them for not passing the ball. He constantly berates these guys when they miss a shot. im like Kobe, are you fucking kidding me? You have the worst shot selection and is a career 45% shooter and you're going to get mad at Lamar or Pau Gasol because they missed a shot? Get fucking real..

Really? I must be watching different Laker games. Does he call for the ball when he's posting up? Of course! Is he assertive in demanding the ball? Absolutely! What is wrong with that? I wish ALL the Laker players showed such passion. I haven't seen him berate guys for missing shots anymore than any other player. Again, we must be watching different games. He certainly has berated players in the past but the last several years I have rarely seen it. But according to you this happens CONSTANTLY. Hmmmm...

Thinking about it... I would say Pau and Farmar are the ones I see berating the others on a more frequent basis.


Id like to try his shit at Ron Artest. Ron will break his neck if he even says a word in his face. He can't handle Ron lol..

Again, not to beat a dead horse, but you must not be watching the same games I am. Ron knows his place. Ron knows who the man is. It's quite obvious from observing his play and his interviews that he puts Kobe high on the pedistal. I would prefer he didn't as much.


Son, that's not basketball.

Correct!!!! It's your delusional obsession. :toast

[Allanon]

So where were you Gasol lovers after the 2008 Finals?

Anybody have a quote from back then saying Gasol is so great?

Y'all hate and praise Pau Gasoft when it suits your Kobe agenda.

Bunch of hypocrites :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So where were you Gasol lovers after the 2008 Finals?

Anybody have a quote from back then saying Gasol is so great?

Y'all hate and praise Pau Gasoft when it suits your Kobe agenda.

Bunch of hypocrites :lol


Pretty obvious your a Gasol fan yourself seeing that you joined this site right around when LA traded for Gasol.

[Allanon]

Pretty obvious your a Gasol fan yourself seeing that you joined this site right around when LA traded for Gasol.

I am a Pau Gasol fan.

But I realize he's not a #1 guy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I am a Pau Gasol fan. But I realize he's not a #1 guy.

Fair enough. The only problem I have is Lakerfan acting like Pau is some kind of scrub. I agree that the talk of him being the #1 on LA is retarded.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Fair enough. The only problem I have is Lakerfan acting like Pau is some kind of scrub. I agree that the talk of him being the #1 on LA is retarded.

The only problem with this statement DUNCANownsKOBE is that you, yourself act like Steve Nash is some kind of scrub. :lol

It seems that this particular Lakerfan and yourself are put into this predicament because you're both trolling each other and you're just not realizing it.

[Allanon]

The only problem with this statement DUNCANownsKOBE is that you, yourself act like Steve Nash is some kind of scrub. :lol

It seems that this particular Lakerfan and yourself are put into this predicament because you're both trolling each other and you're just not realizing it.

Oh, believe me, we both realize it.

In fact, I think everybody knows they're trolling in this ridiculous thread :lol

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Oh, believe me, we both realize it. :lol

I know you do.

But I think DoK might actually believe Steve Nash really is a scrub based on his post-history.

[j.dizzle]

Not knowingly, you make a perfect case as to why the Lakers will easily win the finals for the next 4-5 years.

[j.dizzle]

Yo i know Pau has had some good games this season but when did he turn into Kwame Brown hahaha fumbling balls, missing boards, choking in crunch time. etc..Is he tired or some shit cuz he looked way different last season

[MiamiHeat]

Kobe comes back, he 'eats first'

Gasol back to shooting under 10 shots vs Mavericks, and lakers don't play as good. in this case, they lose.

surprise surprise.

[j.dizzle]

LOL Miami hes been playing sloppy all season. I know ull bring up a few games but any Lakerfan will tell you he looked much sharper last season

[Killakobe81]

Pau is no scrub ...pretty valuable ...
but down the stretch last night and tonight he came up small ...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I know you do.

But I think DoK might actually believe Steve Nash really is a scrub based on his post-history.


What the fuck would you know about my post history you cum guzzling faggot? Stick to what your good at and keep deep throating Kobe.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

What the fuck would you know about my post history you cum guzzling faggot? Stick to what your good at and keep deep throating Kobe.

lmao two week later reply + butthurtedness :lol

[Kobe Bryant Fan]

This is stupid. The haters need to shut up. Gasol sucks. Kobe is way more valuable cause he scores more points.

[HornetLoveJones]

With Gasol = fist championship post Shaq, with Kobe, Lamar, Bynum only = First round exits... you do the math

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

lmao two week later reply + butthurtedness :lol


lmao stupid fat Mexican motherfucker who thinks Kobe Bryant's accomplishments are his accomplishments

[cobbler]

Kobe comes back, he 'eats first'

Gasol back to shooting under 10 shots vs Mavericks, and lakers don't play as good. in this case, they lose.

surprise surprise.

Apparently you didn't watch the game as you would know Kobe ws playing facilitator much of it and MVP Pau stunk it up with bobbled balls and missed passes. He turned his back on the passer several times and had to be benched by Phil. Fish actually took more shots than any other laker not named Kobe (13) and made but 3. Kobe had an off shooting night. Other than Lamar or Ron, no other Laker showed up on the back to back. Including Kobe. And the Laker were still in it in the last minute.

Just another ignorant post from Miami... surprise surprise...

[dirk4mvp]

lmao stupid fat Mexican motherfucker who thinks Kobe Bryant's accomplishments are his accomplishments

They are. That Lakers t shirt he bought at a gas station after the Gasol trade propelled them to a title!

[djohn2oo8]

This is stupid. The haters need to shut up. Gasol sucks. Kobe is way more valuable cause he scores more points.

:lol Classic Laker fan logic. Just because you became a Laker fan last week doesn't make that statement true

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They are. That Lakers t shirt he bought at a gas station after the Gasol trade propelled them to a title!


:lmao. He's probably the type of faggot who walks around wearing those stupid "Got rings?" t-shirts the fat Mexican Lakers fans in Tucson love to wear.

[Lukor]

Lakerfan, whats up with Gasol lately? I watched him last year in the playoffs and the dude that's on the court now seems like a shadow of last year's version. He seemed to have trouble controlling the ball many times yesterday and was lethargic on the court..is he injured or something?

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

Lakerfan, whats up with Gasol lately? I watched him last year in the playoffs and the dude that's on the court now seems like a shadow of last year's version. He seemed to have trouble controlling the ball many times yesterday and was lethargic on the court..is he injured or something?

I don't know what's up with Paula. But he needs to put his Mr. Potato Heads balls back where they belong and man up.

[MiamiHeat]

He was doing just fine while kobe was out

now he's back to being bored.

Chemistry issues, i guarantee.

[The Gemini Method]

Dude's gettin' laid on a regular now, so he doesn't feel up to putting his effort in pre-sex bounty. I don't know what to prescribe, but the motherfucker best show up and soon lol!

[cobbler]

He was doing just fine while kobe was out

now he's back to being bored.

Chemistry issues, i guarantee.

He was doing fine during the playoffs last year too...

I guess Kobe didn't play in any of those either. :lmao

[bostonguy]

The Gasol I saw of last year was the best version. He was their most consistent Laker and had a nutsack so huge he would trip over them. That was a HUGE reason why the Lakers got over the hump. If Gasol of this year shows up in the 2010 playoffs, they have no shot at repeating.

[HarlemHeat37]

Let's go over this again..is Pau the Lakers' MVP?..

[MiamiHeat]

The Gasol I saw of last year was the best version. He was their most consistent Laker and had a nutsack so huge he would trip over them. That was a HUGE reason why the Lakers got over the hump. If Gasol of this year shows up in the 2010 playoffs, they have no shot at repeating.

lets also be honest

everyone got injured too. their path was a cake walk.

the lakers have been the most stacked team for the past 3 seasons

[cobbler]

With Gasol = fist championship post Shaq, with Kobe, Lamar, Bynum only = First round exits... you do the math

So with your logic.. Pippen was the the most valuable Bull.

[ChrisRichards]

Let's go over this again..is Pau the Lakers' MVP?..
Of course he is. I mean come on. Gasol at least shows up in defense. Did you see Kobe leaving Sefalosha for a wide open three in crucial minutes in the 4th?


Gasol is also much more efficient and a team player. This is a no brainer for years, but Kobe's "game winners" somehow puts him ahead of Gasol.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

lol kobe one mvp and needing three seven footers to win one championship

[HarlemHeat37]

Gasol's playoffs..

Leading the Lakers in PER by a huge margin..the best efficiency on the team by a decent margin..the best offensive rating AND defensive rating on the team..by far the most win shares/wins produced on the team..leading the Lakers in rebounding..

Despite all this, he's getting absolutely no hype..pathetic..

[Banzai]

Gasol's playoffs..

Leading the Lakers in PER by a huge margin..the best efficiency on the team by a decent margin..the best offensive rating AND defensive rating on the team..by far the most win shares/wins produced on the team..leading the Lakers in rebounding..

Despite all this, he's getting absolutely no hype..pathetic..

maybe someday he will?

[ChrisRichards]

I dont want to piss anymore Laker fans tonight, but Gasol is just beasting.

33 pts, 15 rebs 66% shooting to close the series.


Those are Shaq-like numbers. Best of all, the guy does'nt open his mouth and is not a douche. I have so much respect for this guy.

[ace3g]

The thing with Gasol that makes him more valuable than Kobe is that he gets those easy tip ins. Right when the other team thinks they got a stop Gasol comes in out of no where and gets the ball back in. That is demoralizing to a team trying to gain momentum. He always puts up double digit boards, and basically goes to the FT around the same amount of times as Kobe.

Oh and the other key factor that makes him more valuable then Kobe is that "yell." That is the most respected yell in the league, they need to make an award for the best yell in the league. He would have competition from Boozer but he wins out because he is on the Lakers.

[ace3g]

Oh and lets not forget Kobe still hasn't won a championship without a legit/all star caliber Center.

Jordan did, Kobe never will

[rhyputa]

He's defended by the All defensive worst team member Carloss Boothe. So much hype from Kobe haters.

[milkshakeballa]

I dont want to piss anymore Laker fans tonight, but Gasol is just beasting.

33 pts, 15 rebs 66% shooting to close the series.


Those are Shaq-like numbers. Best of all, the guy does'nt open his mouth and is not a douche. I have so much respect for this guy.

IMO - best Pau has ever played in his career. Guy in unconscience right now.

[DeadlyDynasty]

yeah I'm ready to say Pau needs to be the focal point of the offense now...The ball should go to him in the post (like it used to with Shaq) on nearly every possession, and he can kick out or score as he sees fit. Pau should be averaging 5 more shots a game IMO (and much more than that against an undersized Suns team). Still though, let Kobe do his thing at the end b/c he's the killer

[Def Rowe]

Pau has fucking rocked the last couple games. Man, you gotta love that guy.

[Killakobe81]

I ahve been MOST impressed with the boards, blocks and range ...

We all knew in the post he was the "GLADIATOR" SPAINARD! SPAINARD!

[TheMACHINE]

pau pau pau!

Oh wait...if us Lakers fans start cheering for Gasol...then the haters wont have anything to bash us about. lol

[mystargtr34]

Pau has been ridiculous. Best big man in basketball at the moment - better than Howard.

[Pero]

pau pau pau!

Oh wait...if us Lakers fans start cheering for Gasol...then the haters wont have anything to bash us about. lol

What and alienate Kobe? :lol

[MiamiHeat]

Kobe would hear the fans loving Gasol

and then be like wtf? I EAT FIRST!! I WANT THE BALL, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

and go into kobe chuck mode.

you don't want that laker fans. you know what happens when he goes into selfish mode.

[pauls931]

Kobe would hear the fans loving Gasol

and then be like wtf? I EAT FIRST!! I WANT THE BALL, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

and go into kobe chuck mode.

you don't want that laker fans. you know what happens when he goes into selfish mode.

Lakers are good enough since the Gasol trade to keep Kobe out of chucker mode. It used to be they'd get down and he'd be like 'F Ya'll I'll take over' and remove the rest of the team from the Offense guaranteeing a loss. No longer the case. Where's Kwame? Is Memphis contending yet?

[TheMACHINE]

Lakers are good enough since the Gasol trade to keep Kobe out of chucker mode. It used to be they'd get down and he'd be like 'F Ya'll I'll take over' and remove the rest of the team from the Offense guaranteeing a loss. No longer the case. Where's Kwame? Is Memphis contending yet?

thats all he needs...a little help...ala DWade in 2006....ala LBJ still trying with a grp of all-stars around him.

[TampaDude]

Pau is a baller...scary lookin' dude, but still a baller. :D

[The Gemini Method]

He also needs to stop deferring to Kobe in the post-game interview. Yes, Pau, you are worthy of a question or two. If Mitch Kupchak will be remembered for the Malone/Payton folly, he'll also have the Gasol Purchase (get it? Like the Louisiana Purchase where we got nearly half of our country for pennies on the dollar) as his class achievement. He was purely uncontrollable in the 2nd round.

[DenDen]

He's more valuable then Andrew Hymen, that's for sure...

[Vertical]

The hate for Bynum is high. He is the 2nd best center in his draft class.

[Killakobe81]

Pau has been ridiculous. Best big man in basketball at the moment - better than Howard.

offensively yes ...and he has IMPROVED on defense but howard us still the best.

My rankings PF/C

OVERALL
1. Howard
2. Dirk
3. Pau
4. Amare
5. Duncan

DEFENSE
1. Howard
2. Duncan
3. Pau
4. Dirk
4. Amare

OFFENSE
1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Pau
4. Duncan
5. Howard

All-time
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Pau
4. Howard
5. amare

Pau is NOT the best big man in any 3 of those categories but he is solid to great in all areas that you want from a big man.

Low post moves: Excellent
Mid-range: Good
shot blocking: good
Rebounding: Good to grear
passing from post: Good to great

[Killakobe81]

bynum is playing hurt he has game ...trust me. will he stay healthy enough to see it ...we'll see.

[MiamiHeat]

thats all he needs...a little help...ala DWade in 2006....ala LBJ still trying with a grp of all-stars around him.

a little?

the Lakers have been the most stacked team since the Gasol trade.

among the best front courts in the past 15 years.

[TheMACHINE]

a little?

the Lakers have been the most stacked team since the Gasol trade.

among the best front courts in the past 15 years.

How many current or past All-stars does the Lakers have?

Now, how many does Cavs, Mavs, Jazz, Suns Spurs have?

[TDMVPDPOY]

pau reminds me of mchale, living on teams success to make us think his one of the best when his playin on a stacked team where the any of the players in the starting 5 could be a starter on other teams

[mavsfan1000]

He is their best player this year.

[MiamiHeat]

How many current or past All-stars does the Lakers have?

Now, how many does Cavs, Mavs, Jazz, Suns Spurs have?

What does the past have anything to do with it?

So if the Lakers sign Magic Johnson, we can count his All-Star appearances from 1987?

[picc84]

You may have missed his point.