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ElNono
02-11-2010, 02:28 PM
Feds push for tracking cell phones (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html)
by Declan McCullagh

Two years ago, when the FBI was stymied by a band of armed robbers known as the "Scarecrow Bandits" that had robbed more than 20 Texas banks, it came up with a novel method of locating the thieves.

FBI agents obtained logs from mobile phone companies corresponding to what their cellular towers had recorded at the time of a dozen different bank robberies in the Dallas area. The voluminous records showed that two phones had made calls around the time of all 12 heists, and that those phones belonged to men named Tony Hewitt and Corey Duffey. A jury eventually convicted (http://cbs11tv.com/local/Scarecrow.Bandits.Guilty.2.1126588.html) the duo of multiple bank robbery and weapons charges.

Even though police are tapping into the locations of mobile phones thousands of times a year, the legal ground rules remain unclear, and federal privacy laws written a generation ago are ambiguous at best. On Friday, the first federal appeals court to consider the topic will hear oral arguments (PDF) (http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/calendar/FEB0810.pdf) in a case that could establish new standards for locating wireless devices.

In that case, the Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in their--or at least their cell phones'--whereabouts. U.S. Department of Justice lawyers say that "a customer's Fourth Amendment rights are not violated when the phone company reveals to the government its own records" that show where a mobile device placed and received calls.

Those claims have alarmed the ACLU and other civil liberties groups, which have opposed the Justice Department's request and plan to tell the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia that Americans' privacy deserves more protection and judicial oversight than what the administration has proposed.

"This is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century," says Kevin Bankston, an attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/) who will be arguing on Friday. "If the courts do side with the government, that means that everywhere we go, in the real world and online, will be an open book to the government unprotected by the Fourth Amendment."

Not long ago, the concept of tracking cell phones would have been the stuff of spy movies. In 1998's "Enemy of the State," Gene Hackman warned that the National Security Agency has "been in bed with the entire telecommunications industry since the '40s--they've infected everything." After a decade of appearances in "24" and "Live Free or Die Hard," location-tracking has become such a trope that it was satirized in a scene with Seth Rogen from "Pineapple Express" (2008).

Once a Hollywood plot, now 'commonplace'
Whether state and federal police have been paying attention to Hollywood, or whether it was the other way around, cell phone tracking has become a regular feature in criminal investigations. It comes in two forms: police obtaining retrospective data kept by mobile providers for their own billing purposes that may not be very detailed, or prospective data that reveals the minute-by-minute location of a handset or mobile device.
Obtaining location details is now "commonplace," says Al Gidari (http://www.perkinscoie.com/professionals/professionals_detail.aspx?professional=0a69ed46-211a-4ceb-bb8b-9f41df8d92f7&op=news), a partner in the Seattle offices of Perkins Coie (http://www.perkinscoie.com/) who represents wireless carriers. "It's in every pen register order these days."

Gidari says that the Third Circuit case could have a significant impact on police investigations within the court's jurisdiction, namely Delaware, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania; it could be persuasive beyond those states. But, he cautions, "if the privacy groups win, the case won't be over. It will certainly be appealed."

CNET was the first to report on prospective tracking in a 2005 news article (http://news.cnet.com/Police-blotter-Cell-phone-tracking-rejected/2100-1030_3-5846037.html). In a subsequent Arizona case, agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration tracked a tractor trailer with a drug shipment through a GPS-equipped Nextel phone owned by the suspect. Texas DEA agents have used cell site information in real time to locate a Chrysler 300M driving from Rio Grande City to a ranch about 50 miles away. Verizon Wireless and T-Mobile logs showing the location of mobile phones at the time calls became evidence in a Los Angeles murder trial.

And a mobile phone's fleeting connection with a remote cell tower operated by Edge Wireless is what led (http://news.cnet.com/Turning-cell-phones-into-lifelines/2100-1039_3-6140794.html) searchers to the family of the late James Kim, a CNET employee who died in the Oregon wilderness in 2006 after leaving a snowbound car to seek help.

The way tracking works is simple: mobile phones are miniature radio transmitters and receivers. A cellular tower knows the general direction of a mobile phone (many cell sites have three antennas pointing in different directions), and if the phone is talking to multiple towers, triangulation yields a rough location fix. With this method, accuracy depends in part on the density of cell sites.

The Federal Communications Commission's "Enhanced 911 (http://news.cnet.com/Cell-.-tracking-raises-privacy-issues/2100-1033_3-846744.html)" (E911) requirements allowed rough estimates to be transformed into precise coordinates. Wireless carriers using CDMA networks, such as Verizon Wireless and Sprint Nextel, tend to use embedded GPS technology to fulfill E911 requirements. AT&T and T-Mobile comply with E911 regulations using network-based technology that computes a phone's location using signal analysis and triangulation between towers.

T-Mobile, for instance, uses a GSM technology called Uplink Time Difference of Arrival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-TDOA), or U-TDOA, which calculates a position based on precisely how long it takes signals to reach towers. A company called TruePosition, which provides U-TDOA services to T-Mobile, boasts of "accuracy to under 50 meters" that's available "for start-of-call, midcall, or when idle."

A 2008 court order (http://news.cnet.com/Police-Blotter-E911-rules-aid-police-in-tracking-cell-phones/2100-1030_3-6229805.html) to T-Mobile in a criminal investigation of a marriage fraud scheme, which was originally sealed and later made public, says: "T-Mobile shall disclose at such intervals and times as directed by (the Department of Homeland Security), latitude and longitude data that establishes the approximate positions of the Subject Wireless Telephone, by unobtrusively initiating a signal on its network that will enable it to determine the locations of the Subject Wireless Telephone."

'No reasonable expectation of privacy'
In the case that's before the Third Circuit on Friday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, said it needed historical (meaning stored, not future) phone location information because a set of suspects "use their wireless telephones to arrange meetings and transactions in furtherance of their drug trafficking activities."

U.S. Magistrate Judge Lisa Lenihan in Pennsylvania denied the Justice Department's attempt to obtain stored location data without a search warrant; prosecutors had invoked a different legal procedure. Lenihan's ruling, in effect, would require police to obtain a search warrant based on probable cause--a more privacy-protective standard.

Lenihan's opinion (PDF) (http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/celltracking/criminalapplicationorder_finalopinion.pdf)--which, in an unusual show of solidarity, was signed by four other magistrate judges--noted that location information can reveal sensitive information such as health treatments, financial difficulties, marital counseling, and extra-marital affairs.

In its appeal to the Third Circuit, the Justice Department claims that Lenihan's opinion "contains, and relies upon, numerous errors" and should be overruled. In addition to a search warrant not being necessary, prosecutors said, because location "records provide only a very general indication of a user's whereabouts at certain times in the past, the requested cell-site records do not implicate a Fourth Amendment privacy interest."

The Obama administration is not alone in making this argument. U.S. District Judge William Pauley (http://www.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=2803), a Clinton appointee in New York, wrote in a 2009 opinion that a defendant in a drug trafficking case, Jose Navas, "did not have a legitimate expectation of privacy in the cell phone" location. That's because Navas only used the cell phone "on public thoroughfares en route from California to New York" and "if Navas intended to keep the cell phone's location private, he simply could have turned it off."

(Most cases (http://news.cnet.com/E-tracking-through-your-cell-phone/2010-1039_3-6038468.html) have involved the ground rules for tracking cell phone users prospectively, and judges have disagreed over what legal rules apply. Only a minority has sided with the Justice Department, however.)

Cellular providers tend not to retain moment-by-moment logs of when each mobile device contacts the tower, in part because there's no business reason to store the data, and in part because the storage costs would be prohibitive. They do, however, keep records of what tower is in use when a call is initiated or answered--and those records are generally stored for six months to a year, depending on the company.

Verizon Wireless keeps "phone records including cell site location for 12 months," Drew Arena, Verizon's vice president and associate general counsel for law enforcement compliance, said at a federal task force meeting (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10448060-38.html) in Washington, D.C. last week. Arena said the company keeps "phone bills without cell site location for seven years," and stores SMS text messages for only a very brief time.

Gidari, the Seattle attorney, said that wireless carriers have recently extended how long they store this information. "Prior to a year or two ago when location-based services became more common, if it were 30 days it would be surprising," he said.

The ACLU, EFF, the Center for Democracy and Technology, and University of San Francisco law professor Susan Freiwald (http://www.usfca.edu/law_library/facultybib/Freiwald.html) argue that the wording of the federal privacy law in question allows judges to require the level of proof required for a search warrant "before authorizing the disclosure of particularly novel or invasive types of information." In addition, they say, Americans do not "knowingly expose their location information and thereby surrender Fourth Amendment protection whenever they turn on or use their cell phones."

"The biggest issue at stake is whether or not courts are going to accept the government's minimal view of what is protected by the Fourth Amendment," says EFF's Bankston. "The government is arguing that based on precedents from the 1970s, any record held by a third party about us, no matter how invasively collected, is not protected by the Fourth Amendment."

Update 10:37 a.m. PT: A source inside the U.S. Attorney's Office for the northern district of Texas, which prosecuted the Scarecrow Bandits mentioned in the above article, tells me that this was the first and the only time that the FBI has used the location-data-mining technique to nab bank robbers. It's also worth noting that the leader of this gang, Corey Duffey, was sentenced last month (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1933544.html) to 354 years (not months, but years) in prison. Another member is facing (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020510dnmetscarecrow.e5d8ab4f.html) 140 years in prison.

ElNono
02-11-2010, 02:31 PM
I almost LOL'ed when I read this part:

In the case that's before the Third Circuit on Friday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, said it needed historical (meaning stored, not future) phone location information because a set of suspects "use their wireless telephones to arrange meetings and transactions in furtherance of their drug trafficking activities."

Made me think of a Marcus Bryant post from not long ago...

Marcus Bryant
02-11-2010, 02:43 PM
The people will be fine with it so long as they can rollover their minutes in Uncle Sam's plan.

Marcus Bryant
02-11-2010, 02:44 PM
I almost LOL'ed when I read this part:

In the case that's before the Third Circuit on Friday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, said it needed historical (meaning stored, not future) phone location information because a set of suspects "use their wireless telephones to arrange meetings and transactions in furtherance of their drug trafficking activities."

Made me think of a Marcus Bryant post from not long ago...

:toast

Put the flag, drugs, kids, terrorists, or puppies on it and the Feds can do whatever they want.

Drachen
02-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Well that sucks, Bush II, II. I was kind of hoping for the opposite.

Wild Cobra
02-11-2010, 09:42 PM
Read your contract. That's what's really not spoken about except in a brief statement:

U.S. Department of Justice lawyers say that "a customer's Fourth Amendment rights are not violated when the phone company reveals to the government its own records" that show where a mobile device placed and received calls.
When you sign such contracts, you give the phone companies permission to share information to 3rd parties.

If you don't like the terms, don't sign up with them.

ElNono
02-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Read your contract. That's what's really not spoken about except in a brief statement:

When you sign such contracts, you give the phone companies permission to share information to 3rd parties.

If you don't like the terms, don't sign up with them.

I'm sure you know more about this than a judge that heard both sides, reviewed the case law and concluded:

U.S. Magistrate Judge Lisa Lenihan in Pennsylvania denied the Justice Department's attempt to obtain stored location data without a search warrant; prosecutors had invoked a different legal procedure. Lenihan's ruling, in effect, would require police to obtain a search warrant based on probable cause--a more privacy-protective standard.

Lenihan's opinion (PDF)--which, in an unusual show of solidarity, was signed by four other magistrate judges--noted that location information can reveal sensitive information such as health treatments, financial difficulties, marital counseling, and extra-marital affairs.

:rolleyes

Wild Cobra
02-11-2010, 10:23 PM
I'm sure you know more about this than a judge that heard both sides, reviewed the case law and concluded:

U.S. Magistrate Judge Lisa Lenihan in Pennsylvania denied the Justice Department's attempt to obtain stored location data without a search warrant; prosecutors had invoked a different legal procedure. Lenihan's ruling, in effect, would require police to obtain a search warrant based on probable cause--a more privacy-protective standard.

Lenihan's opinion (PDF)--which, in an unusual show of solidarity, was signed by four other magistrate judges--noted that location information can reveal sensitive information such as health treatments, financial difficulties, marital counseling, and extra-marital affairs.

:rolleyes
Then I assume the carrier denied the records request to begin with.

Why the fuck does everyone jump to conclusions as to what I say.

ElNono
02-11-2010, 10:29 PM
Then I assume the carrier denied the records request to begin with.
Why the fuck does everyone jump to conclusions as to what I say.

Read your earlier post and then tell me who was jumping into conclusions...

Wild Cobra
02-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Read your earlier post and then tell me who was jumping into conclusions...

When you sign such contracts, you give the phone companies permission to share information to 3rd parties.
They have permission. They do not have to. It is their discretion, and if they choose not to share with 3rd parties, then a warrant must be issued to obtain it.

ElNono
02-11-2010, 10:51 PM
They have permission. They do not have to. It is their discretion, and if they choose not to share with 3rd parties, then a warrant must be issued to obtain it.

Did you even read the judge's opinion?

Marcus Bryant
02-11-2010, 11:01 PM
Naturally Constitutional rights are to be bought and sold. Efficiency über alles.

Wild Cobra
02-11-2010, 11:03 PM
Did you even read the judge's opinion?
What does that have to do with what I said anyway? I simply pointed out that the phone company, depending on the contract you signed, can divulge information.

I said read the contract.

If that pertains to that specific case, or not, doesn't so much matter as to what I said.

Wild Cobra
02-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Did you even read the judge's opinion?
Apparently you didn't:


The Court emphasizes that the issue is not whether the Government can obtain movement/location information, but only the standard it must meet to obtain a Court Order for such disclosure and the basis of authority.

ElNono
02-12-2010, 01:48 AM
Apparently you didn't:

I repeat, have you read the judge's opinion?

Do you know what the Stored Communications Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored_Communications_Act) is?

ElNono
02-12-2010, 01:50 AM
What does that have to do with what I said anyway? I simply pointed out that the phone company, depending on the contract you signed, can divulge information.

Not according to a judge, no. Why are you talking out of your ass again?

Wild Cobra
02-12-2010, 11:32 AM
I repeat, have you read the judge's opinion?

Do you know what the Stored Communications Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored_Communications_Act) is?
Cell phone companies are not the same as ISP's.

Wild Cobra
02-12-2010, 11:41 AM
Not according to a judge, no. Why are you talking out of your ass again?
No, didn't you follow me? The opinion dealt with issuing a warrant. My point is that law enforcement cannot compel a cell phone service to provide the information, but the carrier can give it if they wish to. They can demand a warrant before turning over the information, but at the same time, they can simply turn out information over, depending on what contract we signed.

If you wish to challenge this, then please point out what I missed.

Section 2703 was changed by law in October last year. The opinion is dated 2 years ago.

Question:

Does the opinion say anywhere that cell phone providers are prohibited from complying with law enforcement without a warrant?

boutons_deux
02-12-2010, 12:52 PM
"Cell phone companies are not the same as ISP's."

cell phone companies are Internet access providers, just like ISPs.

ISPs are "phone companies" with Skype and other VOIP services.

ElNono
02-12-2010, 01:20 PM
Cell phone companies are not the same as ISP's.

Not according to a judge.

For the third time, did you read the judge opinion before making your original post?

ElNono
02-12-2010, 01:22 PM
Does the opinion say anywhere that cell phone providers are prohibited from complying with law enforcement without a warrant?

You would know the answer if you read the judges' opinion BEFORE talking out of your ass.

Wild Cobra
02-12-2010, 08:32 PM
You would know the answer if you read the judges' opinion BEFORE talking out of your ass.
Are you that stupid? Yes I read it, I quoted from it.

Show me what I missed, or STFU.

Marcus Bryant
02-12-2010, 11:10 PM
And ElNono wins the match.

Wild Cobra
02-12-2010, 11:27 PM
And ElNono wins the match.
What match.

El Nono is saying I am wrong, but about things I have not claimed.

Marcus Bryant
02-12-2010, 11:30 PM
True. It wasn't much of a match to begin with.

ElNono
02-13-2010, 12:28 AM
True. It wasn't much of a match to begin with.

:lol

ElNono
02-13-2010, 12:29 AM
Read your contract.
When you sign such contracts, you give the phone companies permission to share information to 3rd parties.
If you don't like the terms, don't sign up with them.

:lmao

Wild Cobra
02-13-2010, 12:55 AM
ElNono, you keep proving my point.

Show me where I'm wrong, or let it go. You look so damn foolish.

Marcus Bryant
02-13-2010, 01:07 AM
When you sign your contract you become a slave and have sold your Constitutional rights for a fee. Preferably to the multinational to which Cobra Commander has sworn his allegiance.

Marcus Bryant
02-13-2010, 01:08 AM
Or not even a fee. You should be glad that you exist and that you exist to further glorify your fellow citizens Wal-Mart, General Electric, DuPont, etc...

Wild Cobra
02-13-2010, 01:15 AM
When you sign your contract you become a slave and have sold your Constitutional rights for a fee. Preferably to the multinational to which Cobra Commander has sworn his allegiance.
That's not what I'm implying. The last time I read a cell phone contract, it covered how they can share with third parties, including law enforcement. I'm not saying they are all that way, in fact, I think newer ones no longer have such wording. My point was that such wording has existed, and still can. What I read of the opinion, it had to do with warrants and warrant requests. Not with voluntarily turning over information without a warrant.

I asked ElNono if I missed something in the ruling. I asked if the ruling prohibited voluntarily sharing information.

Crickets....

I took about 5 minutes searching for an on-line contract. Only found an AT&T contract, anf it didn't have a similar phrase, but it did say:

You authorize AT&T or a third party working on AT&T's behalf to listen to, and transcribe all or part of a voicemail message and to convert such voicemail message into text/email.
Anyone like that one?

ElNono
02-13-2010, 01:49 AM
That's not what I'm implying. The last time I read a cell phone contract, it covered how they can share with third parties, including law enforcement. I'm not saying they are all that way, in fact, I think newer ones no longer have such wording. My point was that such wording has existed, and still can. What I read of the opinion, it had to do with warrants and warrant requests. Not with voluntarily turning over information without a warrant.

You're still talking out of you ass. So let me educate you:

What you failed to read is that they cannot share personally identifiable information with 3rd parties, by law. In the case of law enforcement, that personally identifiable information has historically been obtainable only with a court warrant (for example, pen registers or trap and trace devices).

Once communications in general were expanded and not only limited to phone lines, statutes were updated to reflect the same privacy protection. That's when the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act) was passed, and as part of it, the Stored Communications Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored_Communications_Act) was also passed to handle the matter at hand in this case. The SCA actually allows sharing information merely through a subpoena in certain cases, and under a court warrant in other cases.
This case is about wether the government can simply obtain personally identifiable information merely through the subpoena recourse, instead of needing a full blown warrant.
The government wants subpoena, the judge says they need a full blown warrant.

So, it should be obvious by now to whoever is reading this, that the terms of the cell phone contract have absolutely nothing to do with what this case is about.

Now, I fully expect a tantrum, insults, or a complete deflection of the topic from you. You're just not man enough to accept you were simply wrong and that you jumped to conclusions without even reading what this was about.
But that's OK, because everyone else here knows better.

I took considerable time putting together this post to basically do your homework for you. So this is my last post in this thread.

Winehole23
02-13-2010, 04:09 AM
Devil's advocate, now that wc's take has been thoroughly demolished...a little teaser for ElNono.

What about all the dummies who take it for granted that they're supposed to limit themselves contractually vis-a-vis their privacy?

What's to stop them or the counterparties from making the deals, in principle?

ElNono
02-13-2010, 11:59 AM
Devil's advocate, now that wc's take has been thoroughly demolished...a little teaser for ElNono.

What about all the dummies who take it for granted that they're supposed to limit themselves contractually vis-a-vis their privacy?

What's to stop them or the counterparties from making the deals, in principle?

The advice of a tinfoil-hat-wearing friend? :lol

Really, there's nothing preventing dummies for handing out the keys to the kingdom if they so choose.

That said, your standard personal communication contract would normally need to be amended to add such a provision. Besides the fact that there's have been a historical expectation of privacy on those communications, there's nothing to gain from the service provider to grant your wish. I would even argue that were they not compelled by law to do so for free, they would be happy to charge you an administrative fee for forwarding your most intimate secrets to the powers that be.

Wild Cobra
02-13-2010, 01:00 PM
You're still talking out of you ass. So let me educate you:

What you failed to read is that they cannot share personally identifiable information with 3rd parties, by law.
I asked you to show me where it says that. You still haven't.

In the case of law enforcement, that personally identifiable information has historically been obtainable only with a court warrant (for example, pen registers or trap and trace devices).

True. I do not disagree with that.


Once communications in general were expanded and not only limited to phone lines, statutes were updated to reflect the same privacy protection. That's when the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act) was passed, and as part of it, the Stored Communications Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored_Communications_Act) was also passed to handle the matter at hand in this case.

My statement had nothing to do with that particular court case except to ask you if it stated that a cell phone company was forbidden to supply such information without a warrant. I was at all times refering to the tracking, as the start of the OP stated, and the upcoming court case.


The SCA actually allows sharing information merely through a subpoena in certain cases, and under a court warrant in other cases.

And the new Oct 2009 revision passed by the demonrats has removed the judicial warrant requirement again, however, that's not my argument. Your posting was about tracking. I am talking about tracking. Not emails, intercepts, etc.

This case is about wether the government can simply obtain personally identifiable information merely through the subpoena recourse, instead of needing a full blown warrant.
The government wants subpoena, the judge says they need a full blown warrant.

I was speaking outside that particular case.


So, it should be obvious by now to whoever is reading this, that the terms of the cell phone contract have absolutely nothing to do with what this case is about.

I still don't see it. Where do any of these laws forbid law enforcement to ask the cell phone provider for tracking information, and what forbids the carrier from supplying it, as long as the contract had words of 3rd party sharing?

A quote of the section and link would have been nice.


Now, I fully expect a tantrum, insults, or a complete deflection of the topic from you.
I'm still completely on topic to what my original response was about. It's you that's having the tantrums. I'm here laughing my ass off over you lack of understanding what I have been saying.


I took considerable time putting together this post to basically do your homework for you. So this is my last post in this thread.

Remember, I am not talking about actions that demand information. Just requests.

This is what I was talking about, and it is in that first wiki link you supplied:

Government may track cell phone, in real time, without search warrant, under Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA), by analyzing information as to antennae being contacted by cell phones, so long as tracking does not involve cell phone being used in private place where visual surveillance would not be available.
Yep, looks like I'm wrong. They can share the information without you signing the waver.

Wild Cobra
02-13-2010, 01:01 PM
Devil's advocate, now that wc's take has been thoroughly demolished...a little teaser for ElNono.

Read my last post, and consider if I am demolished or not.

Winehole23
02-13-2010, 02:39 PM
You agree with ElNono about halfway, admit your mistake at the end (very unusual for you, but commendable) and continue to deflect the issue to one that you have raised yourself, but have not really addressed yet.

You seem a little bit scattered to me, WC. Why don't you quit picking on ElNono, and provide some support for your own hobby horse?

You know, do your own homework for a change, rather than demand others do it for you indirectly, via refutation.

Winehole23
02-13-2010, 02:41 PM
I would even argue that were they not compelled by law to do so for free, they would be happy to charge you an administrative fee for forwarding your most intimate secrets to the powers that be.Funny.

Sad thing is, most people wouldn't challenge the charge.

Trainwreck2100
02-13-2010, 03:07 PM
dumbfucks shoulda used a burner

ElNono
02-13-2010, 06:15 PM
Funny.

Sad thing is, most people wouldn't challenge the charge.

Indeed. Stupidity has no bounds. As seen in portions of this thread.
Oh well, I wanted to raise awareness about the eroding of our privacy rights, but unfortunately it was not meant to be. Maybe next time.

EmptyMan
02-13-2010, 06:18 PM
yo, what did i tell you about using your cell phone???

http://mentaldefective.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/stringer-bell.jpg

Wild Cobra
02-14-2010, 12:18 AM
You agree with ElNono about halfway, admit your mistake at the end (very unusual for you, but commendable) and continue to deflect the issue to one that you have raised yourself, but have not really addressed yet.

You seem a little bit scattered to me, WC. Why don't you quit picking on ElNono, and provide some support for your own hobby horse?

You know, do your own homework for a change, rather than demand others do it for you indirectly, via refutation.
I am not actually conceding to the bit about the contracts. However, cell providers probably have changed their contracts since such things started being questioned.

From the start, and nobody asked for clarification, I was referring to the topic of the first thread... Using the tracking ability of cell phones. This does not have the same fourth amendment protection.

Scattered? I am always scattered. I often go off in tangents myself. However, I will happily have fun with people for a while when they jump to conclusions that I never meant, just because their own bigotry, bias, or prejudice makes them think the worse of me.

Winehole23
02-14-2010, 05:41 AM
Scattered? I am always scattered. I often go off in tangents myself.It's noticeable. Not everyone will follow you where you go, and not just because they are dumb or biased.

Face it, carnal, you don't have very good bs.


However, I will happily have fun with people for a while when they jump to conclusions that I never meant, just because their own bigotry, bias, or prejudice makes them think the worse of me.Cheeky, then.

BTW, other things make them think the worse of you too.

Your instant resort to name-calling, over-the-top hostility and vulgar meanness to posters who disagree in any way with whatever you happen to think, and the aforementioned weak bs, have been evident for quite some time.

It isn't pretty.

Winehole23
02-16-2010, 03:08 AM
Related: http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/02/15/the-exigent-letter-olc-opinion/

ElNono
02-16-2010, 09:23 AM
Related: http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/02/15/the-exigent-letter-olc-opinion/

Thanks

Winehole23
07-27-2013, 01:12 PM
NJ high court unanimously requires warrants for cell phone tracking: http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/supreme/A5311StatevThomasWEarls.pdf

ElNono
07-31-2013, 01:14 AM
Warrantless Cellphone Tracking Is Upheld

In a significant victory for law enforcement, a federal appeals court on Tuesday said that government authorities could extract historical location data directly from telecommunications carriers without a search warrant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-is-upheld.html?hp&_r=0

lefty
07-31-2013, 01:48 AM
ROOT MF'ers !!!!!




NOW !!!!!!

boutons_deux
07-31-2013, 06:09 AM
"location data was “clearly a business record” and therefore not protected by the Fourth Amendment."

WTF? where my cellphone is a record of where my person is.

"federal appeals court went on to agree with the government’s contention that consumers knowingly give up their location information to the telecommunications carrier every time they make a call or send a text message on their cellphones."

so if I want a cellphone

1) I must sign away my right to join a class action against and MUST use corporate-biased arbitration against an army of corporate lawyers.

2) I agree to "give up" my location

3) pay tons of money for shitty, slow service

Winehole23
02-21-2014, 10:47 AM
Warrant requirement in MA:


The state’s highest court ruled today that law enforcement must generally obtain a search warrant before acquiring a criminal suspect’s cell-phone data in order to track his movements.



The Supreme Judicial Court, ruling in a case with echoes of the controversy over the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs, said a warrant is required under the Massachusetts constitution protections against unreasonable search and seizure.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2014/02/18/state-high-court-says-warrants-are-needed-for-law-enforcement-obtain-cellphone-location-data/lgvqPAxDL7VqaX0Luq9NJO/story.html

Winehole23
02-21-2014, 10:48 AM
The Texas House in 2013 approved an amendment (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/05/texas-house-approves-electronic-privacy.html) 126-4 requiring Texas law enforcement to get a warrant to access cell-phone location data, but it was stripped out of the version of the bill approved in the Senate. This year, Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst included (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/12/dewhurst-assigns-interim-charges-on.html) an evaluation of this and other electronic privacy questions in the interim charge for the Senate State Affairs Committee, so one can expect the matter to be revisited when the Texas Legislature reconvenes in 2015.http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2014/02/ma-latest-state-to-require-warrants-for.html