George Karl speaks on our defense..

[HarlemHeat37]

Jeff McDonald: George Karl on the Spurs' defense, from 30 minutes ago:

"Defensively, they are not a dominant defensive team as they once were. They used to be incredible around the basket. You now can score around the basket on them more than ever before. But they’re still solid. They’re still sound, conceptually. (Pop) has tricks, he can mess with you. But they were so good for so many years. "

"We chart our baskets within five feet of the basket every night. Halftime, I’d go in there against SA and we’d be 2 for 15. They just wouldn’t let you score around the basket. That’s different now."

"They used to play two bigs. Now you can take Duncan away from the basket. You can take their bigs away and attack their smalls a little more. You take Duncan in the pick and roll, you’ve got Bonner, or McDyess or Blair covering the basket. That’s just not as good as it was when it was David Robinson, or Nesterovic or Mohammed or someone like that.”


So many of us have made this same observation time and time again..teams are getting Duncan out of the way and exploiting our other big, and more often than not, our other "big" is a SF..

It's obvious to everybody that this is part of the major problem defensively, so why isn't it obvious to Pop?..

[ElNono]

I just posted the same thing on the game thread... :toast
It's really aggravating...

[Blackjack]

I lol'd upon reading this in the Game Blog; hilarious.

Apparently, only the players the Spurs are looking to acquire need to be MENSA worthy. . .

[alchemist]

:wow This is Pop's friend! Wow this team is a joke around the league right now. :bang

[ivanfromwestwood]

So many of us have made this same observation time and time again..teams are getting Duncan out of the way and exploiting our other big, and more often than not, our other "big" is a SF..

It's obvious to everybody that this is part of the major problem defensively, so why isn't it obvious to Pop?..
he has his reasons for not being able to see

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy36/hixpixstix/head-up-ass.jpg

[ElNono]

When George Karl, out of all coaches, figured you out, you're in deep shit.

[HarlemHeat37]

Seriously though, this is just upsetting..

What the fuck is Pop doing?..It's at the point where I'm starting to think that he might be trying to lose for some reason..I don't actually believe it, but it might be the only logical explanation..

[HarlemHeat37]

When George Karl, out of all coaches, figured you out, you're in deep shit.

It's worse than just that, because we were all saying the same shit..SpursTalk fans..as the Pop defenders like to remind us, he has 4 rings and we're just fans..

I wrote this in the thread "how our defense fell apart" last week or 2 weeks ago..


Opposing teams are often taking advantage of Duncan going to help on either the guy attacking the rim or helping up top on the pick and roll and screens..the other team will always roll to the basket and take advantage of Duncan helping against the first guy that takes the shot..

It's annoying that we can all see this without the access to scouting and in-depth game video, but our HOF coach can't make an adjustment that everybody sees..

[itzsoweezee]

Can someone, anyone in the media please pester Popobitch about this?

"Hey Pop, how come you don't play the big tall guys when the other team is scoring like it's a layup line?

Fucking enablers - from the media down to the apologist fans. This is sickening.

[ElNono]

I would pay to know what the assistant coaches are telling Pop these days...

[exstatic]

:wow This is Pop's friend! Wow this team is a joke around the league right now. :bang

??? I've never heard of Karl and Pop being friends. AFAIK, Pop's buds are Don Nelson and Larry Brown. That's it.

[duncan228]

??? I've never heard of Karl and Pop being friends. AFAIK, Pop's buds are Don Nelson and Larry Brown. That's it.

For what it's worth.


Jeff McDonald: I would put Karl just below Larry Brown and Don Nelson on the ladder of coaches Pop likes

Joe Alexander: Pop is tight with Larry Brown -- and Larry Brown and George Karl have ties going back to the ABA and college.

Jeff McDonald: Although Larry and Don are sort of like mentors to Pop ... The relationship between Karl and Pop is more akin to giggly brothers in the backseat on a long car ride.

[MaNu4Tres]

So many of us have made this same observation time and time again..teams are getting Duncan out of the way and exploiting our other big, and more often than not, our other "big" is a SF..

It's obvious to everybody that this is part of the major problem defensively, so why isn't it obvious to Pop?..

Ain't that the truth.

[SCdac]

Good to see... It's frustrating enough to come online, vent, and know that nothing will ever come of a fan's complaint... But for one of Pop's peers to publicly express doubt in our small-ball influenced defense... it's about time.

[poop]

so...what do you guys think- how many minutes ratliff and mahinmi get tonight?

[lmbebo]

so...what do you guys think- how many minutes ratliff and mahinmi get tonight?

0 and 0, maybe a little TV time?

[spurs10]

I asked this on an previous thread, but still wonder, has anyone with the press just come out and asked Pop why he doesn't play Ian and Theo?

[angelbelow]

Wow..

[NZ Spurs]

"Hey Pop, how come you don't play the big tall guys when the other team is scoring like it's a layup line?

WOW! Who knew the answer was that simple all along! You should be a fucking NBA coach!!!!!!!!!!

[itzsoweezee]

WOW! Who knew the answer was that simple all along! You should be a fucking NBA coach!!!!!!!!!!

Right, NBA coaches should be doing clever shit, like playing small ball. Fuck outta here dumbass.

[Doe]

Can someone, anyone in the media please pester Popobitch about this?

"Hey Pop, how come you don't play the big tall guys when the other team is scoring like it's a layup line?

Fucking enablers - from the media down to the apologist fans. This is sickening.

One of the guys from 48MoH podcast said he asked Pop why they play small ball all the time. He essentially said it's so they can generate more offense and Timmy basically said the same thing when he was asked about it.

Not exactly a startling revelation but it's weird that Pop would be so scarred from the '08 WCF (maybe the '06 WCSF too?) that he'd sell his soul to put more points on the board.

[PublicOption]

Can someone, anyone in the media please pester Popobitch about this?

"Hey Pop, how come you don't play the big tall guys when the other team is scoring like it's a layup line?

Fucking enablers - from the media down to the apologist fans. This is sickening.


I hate our media they are so lame when it comes to asking Pop the hard questions, are they afraid to hurt his feelings?

[peskypesky]

:wow This is Pop's friend! Wow this team is a joke around the league right now. :bang

hmmm....but the Spurs are winning....in Denver.

[itzsoweezee]

One of the guys from 48MoH podcast said he asked Pop why they play small ball all the time. He essentially said it's so they can generate more offense and Timmy basically said the same thing when he was asked about it.

Not exactly a startling revelation but it's weird that Pop would be so scarred from the '08 WCF (maybe the '06 WCSF too?) that he'd sell his soul to put more points on the board.

I'm not buying it because pop often goes to small ball after the spurs have the lead. i could understand it if they're struggling to score, but popovich doesn't use it like that.

[Solid D]

??? I've never heard of Karl and Pop being friends. AFAIK, Pop's buds are Don Nelson and Larry Brown. That's it.

Don't forget they coached together with the 2002 Team USA in the FIBA World Championships. Pop was one of Karl's assistant coaches.

The Spurs have had obvious deficiencies in the middle for 3 years. They worked around them in 2007 but lately, especially against tall teams, physical teams, and long teams, they struggle.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

every thread in the spurs forum is just an opportunity for duncan23332 to lay down knowledge like a smackdown

[TD 21]

When George Karl, out of all coaches, figured you out, you're in deep shit.

This is hilarious because it's true. Karl is probably the worst big name coach in the league. Despite him being considered amongst the best coaches in the game for close to two decades, his teams have never had any type of consistent identity and the guy speaks in, as Stein refers to it, "George-isms".

Having said all that, he's clearly right about this. I thought to myself, yet again after seeing Mahinmi, couldn't this guy help this team in that regard? Like timvp said, he just looks like a basketball player. Long, athletic, fluid, decent skill level. Obviously, he's not a savior and he'll make his fair share of mistakes, but at the very least he gives this team another rim protector and that would instantly improve this team defensively.

I don't have the numbers at my disposal at the moment, but a Blair-Bonner front court has no chance at being successful defensively. When you don't have a stopper on the perimeter, you better at least have sufficient rim protection; the Spurs have neither (at least on the court). He'll more than likely never be a starter, but I get the sense that the Spurs are going to regret at least not finding out what they had with Mahinmi when it's all said and done. He should have taken over the fourth big spot in the rotation the instant Bonner was injured.

[wildbill2u]

I'm sorry that Ian hasn't got off the bench more, simply to see what he could do in games. He looks like he has a competitive attitude when I've seen him. We could use some of that, even if he fouls out.

[guzmangm]

Funny I was just gonna post a question yesterday, if Rasho was available. He's a seven footer and knows the system and can pass. For what it's worth wouldn't take him long to get reaclamated.

[duncan228]

George Karl knows what Spurs need (http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/courtside/2010/02/george-karl-kno.html)
By Jeff McDonald

Another shot-blocking big man.

Before Thursday's game, Denver coach George Karl took time to address what he thinks separates this Spurs team from its championship incarnations of the past: They don't play defense like they used to, partially because they don't have the interior defenders they used to.

A complete transcript of Karl's comments:

"Defensively, they are not a dominant defensive team as they once were. They used to be incredible around the basket. You now can score around the basket on them more than ever before. But they're still solid. They're still sound, conceptually. (Gregg Popovich) has tricks, he can mess with you. But they were so good for so many years.

"We chart our baskets within five feet of the basket every night. Halftime, I'd go in there against San Antonio and we'd be 2 for 15. They just wouldn't let you score around the basket. That's different.

"They used to play two bigs. Now you can take Duncan away from the basket. You can take their bigs away and attack their smalls a little more. You take Duncan in the pick and roll, you've got Bonner or McDyess or Blair covering the basket. That's just not as good as it was when it was David Robinson, or Nesterovic or Mohammed or someone like that."

Two more points:

1) The Spurs won't argue with Karl's assessment. There's a reason they've apparently been sniffing around disgruntled Chicago big man Tyrus Thomas as the trade deadline approaches.

2) How ironic that, in the hours after Karl said this, the Spurs went out and turned in perhaps their best defensive performance against the Nuggets.

[bdictjames]

Like I said, we need a good big man down low, preferably a foreigner with long arms and decent IQ. Bring back Rasho. Get Fesenko.

[Obstructed_View]

As horrible as people think Nazr and Rasho and even Elson were, they have something the current Spurs forward lineup doesn't have. All the outside shooting in the world can't make up for it.

[NFGIII]

As horrible as people think Nazr and Rasho and even Elson were, they have something the current Spurs forward lineup doesn't have. All the outside shooting in the world can't make up for it.

Agreed and that is what is so puzzling about the situation. Pop's defensive scheme requires two bigs in order to work. We really haven't had the second big to team with TD in a while. And what has Pop done about it? Not much and the lack of the second big is killing us. I would find it hard to believe that Pop hasn't made attempts at getting one. Obviously with no success. Ian hasn't won his confidence and Dice isn't the answer. If we don't trade for one then getting to the scond round in the POs might not happen. and you can forget about WCF or further.

[Obstructed_View]

Agreed and that is what is so puzzling about the situation. Pop's defensive scheme requires two bigs in order to work. We really haven't had the second big to team with TD in a while. And what has Pop done about it? Not much and the lack of the second big is killing us. I would find it hard to believe that Pop hasn't made attempts at getting one. Obviously with no success. Ian hasn't won his confidence and Dice isn't the answer. If we don't trade for one then getting to the scond round in the POs might not happen. and you can forget about WCF or further.

There was one sequence very late in the game where a dribbler got past Blair and headed toward the basket and Ian was there to seal him off. He'd rotated quickly and gotten set. It's the first time I've seen that defensive look from the Spurs in a long time.

[NFGIII]

There was one sequence very late in the game where a dribbler got past Blair and headed toward the basket and Ian was there to seal him off. He'd rotated quickly and gotten set. It's the first time I've seen that defensive look from the Spurs in a long time.

I remember that one and you are right. Was really nice to see. Damn I should have taped the game and then I could see it again. My feelings are that we may not see that too often again. :( I hope I'm terribly wrong on this one.

So for the $64 question - Will Pop start giving Ian more minutes?

Answer - most likely not or if he does the first time Ian blows an assignment he's back in street clothes.

[HarlemHeat37]

There was one sequence very late in the game where a dribbler got past Blair and headed toward the basket and Ian was there to seal him off. He'd rotated quickly and gotten set. It's the first time I've seen that defensive look from the Spurs in a long time.

I think it was Ty Lawson too, a guy that has killed us with penetration this year..

Just the fact that Ian is 6'11 and athletic makes him a deterrent, even if he wouldn't be able to do anything else, which I don't believe..

[K-State Spur]

So many of us have made this same observation time and time again..teams are getting Duncan out of the way and exploiting our other big, and more often than not, our other "big" is a SF..

It's obvious to everybody that this is part of the major problem defensively, so why isn't it obvious to Pop?..

Did you even read the quote you bolded? Karl was not talking about small ball. He was pointing out that other bigs were not defensive stalwarts like those we have had in the past.

Often the reason that Pop goes small is because he's not getting rim protection from the other bigs on the roster anyways.

[HarlemHeat37]

Did you even read the quote you bolded? Karl was not talking about small ball. He was pointing out that other bigs were not defensive stalwarts like those we have had in the past.

Often the reason that Pop goes small is because he's not getting rim protection from the other bigs on the roster anyways.

Obviously I read it, it was pretty straightforward..my point is that our defensive bigs are bad enough, and its even worse that our 2nd big is often not even a real big..

If Pop's reason for going small is because our 2nd bigs can't protect the rim, then that's one of the worst strategies I've ever seen..

[ElNono]

As horrible as people think Nazr and Rasho and even Elson were, they have something the current Spurs forward lineup doesn't have. All the outside shooting in the world can't make up for it.

No, they were below average. Rasho was a layup-missing machine (much like Oberto) and Nazr had hands of stone. I'm not even going to address Elson, I'm sure timvp can tell you all about him. People kept justifying them because they were, and I quote, "good positional defenders". When Horry came around, he changed a lot of that. Here was a guy that could rebound fairly well, was basketball savvy, could occasionally block a shot, knew how to draw charges in the lane, could bang with other bigs, and on top of that was clutch as hell from downtown.

The problem is that the Bonners of the world are much, much worse defensively than any of those guys. The offense is probably better than all of them except Horry, but just marginally. To me it's amazing, but Bonner STILL misses defensive rotations. He's been in the team for how long? 3 seasons? A personnel upgrade is a must in that position.

Oh, and I wanted to add that Dice looked terrible in the first half of the season, but he's been picking up his game a lot and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up playing substantially better defensively than Bonner by season's end.

[ulosturedge]

I've always hated this since we had Oberto, Thomas, Bonner playing center, and now we have Blair and Dice taking the torch. The defense that won us championships always had the "twin tower" setup, and somehow we went away from that. The FO hadn't heard the term "if it ain't broke don't fix it"? I mean what made Rasho and Nazr so bad that it just wasn't going to work anymore? Rasho wanted too much money? Nazr somehow ended up in Pop's doghouse? Kurt Thomas was the answer? He was a good defensive player don't get me wrong, but that doesn't make him a good option at center..not for the way our system works..and it seems the more and more we live without the more Pop thinks he can remold the team into something else and win. It's not fucking working Pop! Go back to what works!

[smeagol]

As horrible as people think Nazr and Rasho and even Elson were, they have something the current Spurs forward lineup doesn't have. All the outside shooting in the world can't make up for it.

Those three guys were critiziced by 90% of the board.

And now people want them?

LOL!

[Trimble87]

Like small ball or hate it, the reasoning behind it makes sense. Pop believs that the mismatches it causes on the offensive end outway the problems on the defensive end. He's using it more then ever this year, I'm assuming, because we dont have a good big man to play alongside Tim. Our defense would be mediocre with Ian or Ratliff out there, so why not have mediocre defense and a better offense?

I'm sure some of you will get all butt hurt about this and claim Ian and Ratliff are the saviors. But Pop sees these guys every day in practice and is much much smarter then all of us. He obviously isn't seeing enough from them to give them playing time right now.

I personally hate small ball and hope we soon get back to our two 7 footer lineups in the future. But as we are currently constituted that isn't a possibility.

[ShoogarBear]

Our defense would be mediocre with Ian or Ratliff out there, so why not have mediocre defense and a better offense?

I'm sure some of you will get all butt hurt about this and claim Ian and Ratliff are the saviors. But Pop sees these guys every day in practice and is much much smarter then all of us. .

I believe he's seen them in practice. I am beginning to doubt that he watches them in games.

With all the screwups by Bonner, Finley, and Jefferson allowed on a nightly basis, I don't see how 5-10 minutes/game of Ian for a few nights could possibly make things worse.

[Obstructed_View]

No, they were below average. Rasho was a layup-missing machine (much like Oberto) and Nazr had hands of stone. I'm not even going to address Elson, I'm sure timvp can tell you all about him.

Spoken like someone that has no fucking clue about defense. Well done.

As horrible as they were, even if they never touched the ball on offense, even if they missed shots, double dribbled, shuffled their feet, pump faked a thousand times, went up soft, clanged jumpers, the fact remains that they had size on defense, and the Spurs defense was better because of it.

The Spurs have maybe had two guys in their history that could possibly make up for a lack of size in the middle, and Horry's not one of them.

[Obstructed_View]

Those three guys were critiziced by 90% of the board.

And now people want them?

LOL!

The people that were never able to mentally link Spurs defense with winning of course don't, and the people that think you need your center to score a lot of points in order to influence the outcome of a game of course don't. Rasho and Mohammed are certainly better defensive centers than anyone on the Spurs team the past couple of years that have gotten any burn.

[Bruno]

To be a great defensive team, you need both size and mobility in the paint. Right now, Spurs really lack of mobility and are very average on the size side. To offset the lack of mobility, Pop plays a lot of small ball but it makes Spurs really bad on the size side.

In a perfect world, Spurs would get a player who bring both size and mobility.

[timaios]

Elson = Mobility

Size = Rasho

Now:

Ian = Mobility

Ratliff = Size

Ian Mahinmi is 6'11
Theo Ratliff is 6'10

[ElNono]

Spoken like someone that has no fucking clue about defense. Well done.

I'm sorry, I missed your credentials that allow you to be a condescending prick when talking about all things defense.
Furthermore, I called them below-average talent because they were pretty good at one thing but horrible at another. As players, OVERALL, they were below-average.


As horrible as they were, even if they never touched the ball on offense, even if they missed shots, double dribbled, shuffled their feet, pump faked a thousand times, went up soft, clanged jumpers, the fact remains that they had size on defense, and the Spurs defense was better because of it.

In conclusion:

1) They were horrible offensively
2) They provided better defense than our current bigs

Which is exactly what I wrote in my post...


The Spurs have maybe had two guys in their history that could possibly make up for a lack of size in the middle, and Horry's not one of them.

Well, Horry didn't need to make up for lack of size because he was 6'10. I'm not sure where you're going with this though...

[HarlemHeat37]

To be a great defensive team, you need both size and mobility in the paint. Right now, Spurs really lack of mobility and are very average on the size side. To offset the lack of mobility, Pop plays a lot of small ball but it makes Spurs really bad on the size side.

In a perfect world, Spurs would get a player who bring both size and mobility.

Well your fellow Frenchman has both size AND mobility..apparently that's not good enough to have gotten a chance in the first few weeks of the season..

TBH, I think Pop just has a fetish for small ball..there are a lot of coaches in the NBA that love playing a certain style of basketball, and small ball has become something Pop has become obcessed with..as I pointed out in my stats a few weeks ago, this team is significantly better with a traditional lineup of big men..

[tp2021]

:wow This is Pop's friend! Wow this team is a joke around the league right now. :bang

If anything, its a good thing. Hopefully it can be a wakeup call for our stubborn old coach.

[Bruno]

Well your fellow Frenchman has both size AND mobility.

So have the Na'vis.

Splitter woudl also have been great as this mobile big with size. Now, what is done is done. It's too late for Ian and Splitter :splitter Spurs. Spurs badly need to get a gig with a good size/mobility compromise.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm sorry, I missed your credentials that allow you to be a condescending prick when talking about all things defense.
Furthermore, I called them below-average talent because they were pretty good at one thing but horrible at another. As players, OVERALL, they were below-average.

The Spurs don't need offense, they need defense. Guys who block shots, defend the lane and get rebounds don't need to score. None of them were as bad as you tried to make them out to be offensively but even if they were their defense more than made up for it, as the struggles since they left will attest.


In conclusion:

1) They were horrible offensively
2) They provided better defense than our current bigs

Which is exactly what I wrote in my post...
Actually, you took a discussion about defense and suddenly ripped all of them for being terrible offensive players. You then suggested their defense is hugely overrated, and those that characterize them as good positional defenders are mistaken. You went on to say that Matt Bonner is even worse than any of them. Basically you produced an admirable amalgam of every Rasho-Nazr-Elson-Bonnerbashing that's gone on for the past five or six years.


Well, Horry didn't need to make up for lack of size because he was 6'10. I'm not sure where you're going with this though...
I'm not sure how you aren't sure because you yourself said many of the same things about him. Horry was a three most of his career who stands out on the perimeter and shoots. He's an excellent on the ball defender and a crafty weakside shot blocker, but he's never played as big as his height and would never be considered an inside player. The Spurs' success came when he was the regular three and not a smallball 4 or 5. Again, bringing up his name when we're talking about defensive needs at the center position was your idea, not mine.

[temujin]

Amazing.

Even Karl realizes that Bonner is worst than Robinson or Nesterovic at protecting the rim.

I'm impressed.

[guzmangm]

I think if Rasho were back, if possible, then he would be an immediate upgrade in situation defense. We thought Ratliff was gonna be used for his shot blocking ability but for some reason he doesn't get used. Rasho has experience already with the squad. You bring him in when you need him. The spurs have gotten defensively worse progressively and it's not all related to losing Bruce or aging players. When Rasho was here, the Spurs were still good defensesively not exclusive because of him, but he added his element. I never could understand all the Rasho hate back then.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Just another reason we need that trade for another dominant big defender. I actually heard Brent mention this prior to the game.


Amazing.

Even Karl realizes that Bonner is worst than Robinson or Nesterovic at protecting the rim.

I'm impressed.

Has that not been more than obvious to everyone?

[ElNono]

The Spurs don't need offense, they need defense. Guys who block shots, defend the lane and get rebounds don't need to score. None of them were as bad as you tried to make them out to be offensively but even if they were their defense more than made up for it, as the struggles since they left will attest.

When we're talking about Rasho, Nazr and Elson, we're talking about the Spurs of times past, not the Spurs of the present. You seem to be confused.
And yes, they were all handicapped offensively. But they filled their roles properly on our system on defense. They weren't great defensive players by any measurable standard either. None of them were top 10 rebounders, or shot blockers. They just knew where to be and what their role was next to a Tim Duncan who was on a superior tier defensively from the rest of the league back then.


Actually, you took a discussion about defense and suddenly ripped all of them for being terrible offensive players. You then suggested their defense is hugely overrated, and those that characterize them as good positional defenders are mistaken. You went on to say that Matt Bonner is even worse than any of them. Basically you produced an admirable amalgam of every Rasho-Nazr-Elson-Bonnerbashing that's gone on for the past five or six years.

No, you had a rage attack when I said they were below-average players.
But we're not entirely disagreeing here.
All those guys were average defenders and knew their roles. Guys like Bonner (and Blair, but I'll excuse him because he's a rook) have been substantially worse on defense. This is compounded because Tim has lost a step defensively, and now he's just "great", instead of being "awesome". I think we are actually in agreement on this.

And it's not bashing. The reality is that the FO has brought in Kurt Thomas, Drew Gooden, McDyess and now is still looking for another big as we speak because the Red Rocket is a great guy, plays real hard, knows his sandwiches, but he's simply not what we need defensively out there. Exactly what Karl pointed out.


I'm not sure how you aren't sure because you yourself said many of the same things about him. Horry was a three most of his career who stands out on the perimeter and shoots. He's an excellent on the ball defender and a crafty weakside shot blocker, but he's never played as big as his height and would never be considered an inside player. The Spurs' success came when he was the regular three and not a smallball 4 or 5. Again, bringing up his name when we're talking about defensive needs at the center position was your idea, not mine.

I brought in Horry because only when he came around people stopped bitching about our defenders in the interior. But at the same time, that's when Pop went away from a classical lineup to the pseudo small ball that has the PF playing on the perimeter.
Please, go take a look at the 2005 Finals. Our crunch time lineup was Duncan, Horry, Bowen, Ginobili, Parker. On offense, Horry played a lot like Bonner now, rotating to the perimeter, but on defense he played inside.
At some point Pop thought Matt would be the next Horry, and that was a massive fail. Horry was unique, and the quicker we run away from that and back to the classical defense, the quicker we'll be back on the right track.

[Pero]

How exactly was Rasho handicaped on offense?

[ElNono]

How exactly was Rasho handicaped on offense?

He averaged 6.3 PPG on 24.3 min as a Spur...
On the playoffs: 3.1 PPG on 15.4 mins...

His first season was the best as a Spur... he quickly declined from there...

[Pero]

He averaged 6.3 PPG on 24.3 min as a Spur...
On the playoffs: 3.1 PPG on 15.4 mins...

His first season was the best as a Spur... he quickly declined from there...

I'm not sure that's a sign of being handicapped on offense. He scored less after his first season because he took less shots (almost half as much). When Tim went down he averaged around 15 pts. As a Raptor he had a period of averaging 16 ppg. If he was handicapped on offense he wouldn't be able to do that. You make it sound like he's Ben Wallace offensively.
Although maybe you meant that he was handicapped on offense because of the Spurs system. In which case I think it doesn't really matter offensively who the center is, he won't average a lot of points, unless he's named Tim Duncan or David Robinson.

[Pero]

But in any case I doubt bringing back Rasho (or Nazr) would help much.

[Obstructed_View]

How exactly was Rasho handicaped on offense?

Rasho's biggest problem offensively during his time as a Spur was the guy he started next to. Rasho always scored far more when Duncan wasn't on the floor with him. That would have been a survivable problem if he'd made less money.

[Obstructed_View]

When we're talking about Rasho, Nazr and Elson, we're talking about the Spurs of times past, not the Spurs of the present. You seem to be confused.
Maybe I just wasn't clear enough. The Spurs of the present need size. Even if it's size that doesn't score points or get rebounds, even guys with size that aren't great defensive players by any measurable standard. It dovetails with what Karl said. The reason I overreacted at your calling them out on offense is because that menality has evolved into Pop running five guys who are undersized out there in the hopes that they can outscore their opponent while two big defensive shot blockers watch from the sideline. We're all too familiar with the layup line that results from that.


Guys like Bonner (and Blair, but I'll excuse him because he's a rook) have been substantially worse on defense. This is compounded because Tim has lost a step defensively, and now he's just "great", instead of being "awesome". I think we are actually in agreement on this.
I'm still not convinced that Bonner and Blair are substantially worse defenders, I think they're sustantially smaller, which is why I resist the attempts to overthink this problem. Timmy is clearly not physically what he was several years back, but a defensive system that pairs him with a legitimate seven footer to block and alter shots in the paint makes his job easier, not harder.


And it's not bashing. The reality is that the FO has brought in Kurt Thomas, Drew Gooden, McDyess and now is still looking for another big as we speak because the Red Rocket is a great guy, plays real hard, knows his sandwiches, but he's simply not what we need defensively out there. Exactly what Karl pointed out.
The problem with all the guys the Spurs have brought in is that they're all undersized, and the defense simply doesn't work when you're plugging 6'9" guys into your center role, particularly now that you've lost Bruce Bowen.


I brought in Horry because only when he came around people stopped bitching about our defenders in the interior. But at the same time, that's when Pop went away from a classical lineup to the pseudo small ball that has the PF playing on the perimeter.
Please, go take a look at the 2005 Finals. Our crunch time lineup was Duncan, Horry, Bowen, Ginobili, Parker. On offense, Horry played a lot like Bonner now, rotating to the perimeter, but on defense he played inside.
At some point Pop thought Matt would be the next Horry, and that was a massive fail. Horry was unique, and the quicker we run away from that and back to the classical defense, the quicker we'll be back on the right track.
I'm sort of with you on this point, but in 2005 Rasho and Nazr were getting plenty of minutes, and in the '05 Finals, the Pistons ran a lot of three guard lineups. Remember also that Ben Wallace was their center and he's 6'9". When the Spurs died in the '06 playoffs it was because Horry and Duncan were the center rotation with Finley at the 4 much of the time. When they won again in '07 it was with Oberto playing a more traditional center role with Duncan and Horry in their normal positions. The flawed logic that Horry was a success at the 4 or 5 is what led to the belief that Bonner could do the same thing, and has of course been a disaster. Not, IMO, because Bonner's a rotten player or because he can't defend, but because he's basically being asked to do what Ben Wallace did when he was in his prime. Again, just a laughable expectation if it were happening to someone else's team.

[Chieflion]

While I agree George Karl was right, and that he did mock Pop for putting in small ball by inserting his small lineup as well, when the game was out of hand, the Spurs show that at least they could play some defense. If only they could do it consistently.

[Obstructed_View]

While I agree George Karl was right, and that he did mock Pop for putting in small ball by inserting his small lineup as well, when the game was out of hand, the Spurs show that at least they could play some defense. If only they could do it consistently.

Having every guy that gets game time moving at game speed makes a heck of a difference, and playing 48 minutes is important too. Lets see if they can come in and do it again after a long layoff. I'm not even going to look any further than that for the time being.

[Chieflion]

Having every guy that gets game time moving at game speed makes a heck of a difference, and playing 48 minutes is important too. Lets see if they can come in and do it again after a long layoff. I'm not even going to look any further than that for the time being.
Enjoy the all-star weekend as fans, and lets not think about so much, this is the time when coaches make their final adjustments and trade talks. After the layoff, it will be the final push.

[ElNono]

Maybe I just wasn't clear enough. The Spurs of the present need size. Even if it's size that doesn't score points or get rebounds, even guys with size that aren't great defensive players by any measurable standard. It dovetails with what Karl said. The reason I overreacted at your calling them out on offense is because that menality has evolved into Pop running five guys who are undersized out there in the hopes that they can outscore their opponent while two big defensive shot blockers watch from the sideline. We're all too familiar with the layup line that results from that.

We're in complete agreement on this. And it's not merely size, but as Bruno mentioned, also mobility. I would add a third trait and that is defensive-mentality (shot blocking and above average rebounding). Obviously, you probably can't find a guy that has all those traits without paying handsomely for his services, so it has to be at the very least some kind of combination of those.


I'm still not convinced that Bonner and Blair are substantially worse defenders, I think they're sustantially smaller, which is why I resist the attempts to overthink this problem. Timmy is clearly not physically what he was several years back, but a defensive system that pairs him with a legitimate seven footer to block and alter shots in the paint makes his job easier, not harder.

To me, at the very least to be an effective defensive big you need to be able to bang with the big guys. Bynum, Howard, Shaq. Blair is undersized, but he has the body to bang up, he rebounds well, and he's been developing a good sense of timing for blocking shots. The problem with Blair is that he's getting just his feet wet both in the league and the system. That's why I can't ask much more than the hustle he gives us out there right now. I fully expect him to get owned by the excellent talent in the league (like Gasol the other day) in his first season. Make no mistake, he's a special talent. I wouldn't put it past him he will someday be a 20-20 guy. And if he puts those numbers, then he will more than make up for whatever defense he plays. Bonner is a different story altogether. I can't say he doesn't try hard, because he's one of the guys that works the hardest out there and overcomes some of his limitations by doing so. And for the limited amount of time I've interacted with him personally, he seems like a great guy. But as a basketball player in this league, he is limited. He's simply soft, he doesn't have a great vertical, his shot blocking is limited, and his rebounding is simply below average. He's mostly and offensive weapon for certain matchups, and most definitely a 15 mpg tops bench player.


The problem with all the guys the Spurs have brought in is that they're all undersized, and the defense simply doesn't work when you're plugging 6'9" guys into your center role, particularly now that you've lost Bruce Bowen.

Well, part of the problem is that talented 7 footers that have some experience in this league just simply don't grow on trees. And by experience I mean that they've played enough seasons in this league not to get the rookie treatment from the refs, and also have enough savvy to understand the Spurs defensive scheme. Thomas was probably the closes match on this, but he was neither mobile or tall.


I'm sort of with you on this point, but in 2005 Rasho and Nazr were getting plenty of minutes, and in the '05 Finals, the Pistons ran a lot of three guard lineups. Remember also that Ben Wallace was their center and he's 6'9". When the Spurs died in the '06 playoffs it was because Horry and Duncan were the center rotation with Finley at the 4 much of the time. When they won again in '07 it was with Oberto playing a more traditional center role with Duncan and Horry in their normal positions. The flawed logic that Horry was a success at the 4 or 5 is what led to the belief that Bonner could do the same thing, and has of course been a disaster. Not, IMO, because Bonner's a rotten player or because he can't defend, but because he's basically being asked to do what Ben Wallace did when he was in his prime. Again, just a laughable expectation if it were happening to someone else's team.

I will also give you that it made sense to play Horry more inside in those Finals because Ben Wallace had basically zero offense. But again, Horry was an incredibly savvy player. I still remember him poking the ball off of anybody that wanted to post him up. Drawing charges. Blocking shots. Most people just remember his clutch shots, but he was a pretty smart defender too.

[himat]

Well look you guys who do you have? What other guy can play next to Duncan besides Blair, McDyess, and Bonner? Nobody really. What choice do you guys have?

For us McDyess worked out because he can't stay in front of people anyomore but he can still rebound and out muscle opponents. Sheed, Ben, Chauncey, Rip, Tay were all solid defenders so nobody could really exploit McDyess's speed.

What I think the Spurs need the most is to step it up defensively on the perimeter. Its easy to blame the big men because they are the one's who get scored on the most, but I have watched some Spurs games and Tony Parker and company get beat a lot of the dribble.

Tell me if I'm wrong because I have only watched like 6 or 7 Spurs games this season.

[ShoogarBear]

Well look you guys who do you have? What other guy can play next to Duncan besides Blair, McDyess, and Bonner? Nobody really. What choice do you guys have?

For us McDyess worked out because he can't stay in front of people anyomore but he can still rebound and out muscle opponents. Sheed, Ben, Chauncey, Rip, Tay were all solid defenders so nobody could really exploit McDyess's speed.

What I think the Spurs need the most is to step it up defensively on the perimeter. Its easy to blame the big men because they are the one's who get scored on the most, but I have watched some Spurs games and Tony Parker and company get beat a lot of the dribble.

Tell me if I'm wrong because I have only watched like 6 or 7 Spurs games this season.

No, you're not wrong. The noticeable thing about the Denver game was how much more aggressive the Spurs were on the perimeter, especially the half-court trapping. They picked up a lot more fouls than their accustomed to, but Denver was clearly rattled. The problem is that's less likely to work against smart, patient teams.

[ElNono]

Well look you guys who do you have? What other guy can play next to Duncan besides Blair, McDyess, and Bonner? Nobody really. What choice do you guys have?

For us McDyess worked out because he can't stay in front of people anyomore but he can still rebound and out muscle opponents. Sheed, Ben, Chauncey, Rip, Tay were all solid defenders so nobody could really exploit McDyess's speed.

What I think the Spurs need the most is to step it up defensively on the perimeter. Its easy to blame the big men because they are the one's who get scored on the most, but I have watched some Spurs games and Tony Parker and company get beat a lot of the dribble.

Tell me if I'm wrong because I have only watched like 6 or 7 Spurs games this season.

I think it has to be a complete team thing. Much like the Pistons in 06/07, where you had both great perimeter and great interior defense. For us, it's been also that. We lost Bowen on the perimeter, Manu is a step slower this season, and inside TD needs help. He can't just do it all by himself anymore.

The positives have been mostly Hill on the perimeter, and Blair rebounding. Pop was hoping for RJ to at least try, considering he's still somewhat athletic and has some size at SF, but it's been a complete failure.

So it's a lot more negative than positive overall. A shot blocker would go a long ways, but I've suggested to at least take a gamble on a perimeter guy like Bell, and other people have brought up Nocioni. It's about adding a little toughness, attitude and savvy to the perimeter, and hope the defense picks up. We'll see what the FO is thinking about soon enough I guess.

[SCdac]

Rasho may have been an average overall player, but there's no denying he was a really solid shot blocker and alterer back in the mid 2000's... Looking at our 03-04 roster for instance, when we lead the league in defense (held teams to like 84 PPG), and newly signed Rasho started all 82 games and averaged almost 30 MPG, we really controlled the paint. That regular season, only 6 times did a team score 100 points or more on us, and 6 times we held the opposition to 69 points or less...

Just looking at the league leaders in blocks that year is telling of what kind of team we used to be...

03-04 total blocks

1. Theo Ratliff-TOT 307
2. Ben Wallace-DET 246
3. Andrei Kirilenko-UTA 215
4. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 201
5. Jermaine O'Neal-IND 199
6. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 189
7. Marcus Camby-DEN 187
8. Tim Duncan-SAS 185
9. Kevin Garnett-MIN 178
10. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 166
11. Rasho Nesterovic-SAS 165
12. Yao Ming-HOU 156
13. Elton Brand-LAC 154
14. Greg Ostertag-UTA 139
15. Erick Dampier-GSW 137
16. Pau Gasol-MEM 132
17. Donyell Marshall-TOT 124
18. Dikembe Mutombo-NYK 123
Etan Thomas-WAS 123
20. Rasheed Wallace-TOT 122

I would give anything for the Spurs to get back to having two prime time shot blockers in the starting lineup :depressed

[Obstructed_View]

No, you're not wrong. The noticeable thing about the Denver game was how much more aggressive the Spurs were on the perimeter, especially the half-court trapping. They picked up a lot more fouls than their accustomed to, but Denver was clearly rattled. The problem is that's less likely to work against smart, patient teams.

Game speed and hustle was really key, and the fouls were smart. How many times last year did Finley's man start out hitting a couple of open shots and then suddenly torch the Spurs for the next 20 minutes? I'd much rather they foul a few times than allow jump shooters to get their range. It's also tough for some of these guys to defend according to a system that preaches funneling dribblers baseline when there are no longer shot blockers there to influence the shot.

[himat]

No, you're not wrong. The noticeable thing about the Denver game was how much more aggressive the Spurs were on the perimeter, especially the half-court trapping. They picked up a lot more fouls than their accustomed to, but Denver was clearly rattled. The problem is that's less likely to work against smart, patient teams.

You can't always count on that you are right, but even though Denver is a stupid team, Chauncey is usually good about not turning the ball over.

Yeah Raja Bell could help you guys a lot. I am not a big fan of his, but the dude hits big shots and was the one guy who could play D on that Suns team a few years back. I don't know who you guys would trade to get him though.

Sheed looks like a bust in Boston, but that whole team is washed up. That would have been sick if you guys could have got him and Dice. He would help a lot on defense, but I'm not so sure about offense. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Well, part of the problem is that talented 7 footers that have some experience in this league just simply don't grow on trees. And by experience I mean that they've played enough seasons in this league not to get the rookie treatment from the refs, and also have enough savvy to understand the Spurs defensive scheme.
Therein lies the rub. The Spurs have a better chance of teaching Ratliff the system than anyone they can bring in. Ian's probably going to get rookie calls if he plays the rest of the season, but if his time on the floor is potentially a net gain then they absolutely have to find out this season if they want to challenge. They might just think they can get a vet and teach him everything they need, which is possible. They have done it before.

[ElNono]

Therein lies the rub. The Spurs have a better chance of teaching Ratliff the system than anyone they can bring in. Ian's probably going to get rookie calls if he plays the rest of the season, but if his time on the floor is potentially a net gain then they absolutely have to find out this season if they want to challenge. They might just think they can get a vet and teach him everything they need, which is possible. They have done it before.

If Ratliff is to contribute this season at all, he needs to start seeing the floor now. People that think he's just going to be trotted out there in the middle of the playoffs without having a clue how to rotate inside and what to do in our system are entirely delusional, IMO. That's why I originally was preaching to at least give him 10 minutes a night. But it's been a while that I've been suspecting that Pop has really no intention of playing him, unless there's foul trouble, a very specific situation that requires a shot blocker or injury from his rotation bigs. Which is a shame, really.

[newacc]

Pop has to be one of the most stubborn humans on the planet. He'd rather go with someone like Finley or RJ at power forward and lose than try an unexperienced Ian Mahinmi or aged Theo Ratliff and see what happens.

On a related note, Mike Bud has to be a failed underling. That game against Dallas he looked like a lost puppy after I don't know many years of serving as Pop's right hand man. Adding to that, I'll bet he doesn't have the courage to call Pop out on some of Pop's self destructing lineup choices. He's probably just a yes man that runs X&Os over the players.

He's not alone though. Independent media fear Pop's wrath so much they cower their questions to hopefully meet his approval.

All this unquestioned power has evolved Pop into a coach that now routinely embarrasses himself with lineup selection. You can say what you want about the players under performing, but the bottom line is this is one of the most talented Spurs teams ever and before the season they were thought to the be Lakers primary challengers to the title. Now they will surprise a lot of people by getting out of the first round.

[ulosturedge]

I'm a little lost....are some of you guys here actually defending using undersized centers? Am I the only one seeing us getting raped at the rim night in and night out? Funneling players to the help down low only equates to layups and dunks these days....not exactly the Spurs defense I remember.

[EmptyMan]

Fuckinn Pop. The Era is over.

[Chieflion]

Rasho may have been an average overall player, but there's no denying he was a really solid shot blocker and alterer back in the mid 2000's... Looking at our 03-04 roster for instance, when we lead the league in defense (held teams to like 84 PPG), and newly signed Rasho started all 82 games and averaged almost 30 MPG, we really controlled the paint. That regular season, only 6 times did a team score 100 points or more on us, and 6 times we held the opposition to 69 points or less...

Just looking at the league leaders in blocks that year is telling of what kind of team we used to be...

03-04 total blocks

1. Theo Ratliff-TOT 307
2. Ben Wallace-DET 246
3. Andrei Kirilenko-UTA 215
4. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 201
5. Jermaine O'Neal-IND 199
6. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 189
7. Marcus Camby-DEN 187
8. Tim Duncan-SAS 185
9. Kevin Garnett-MIN 178
10. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 166
11. Rasho Nesterovic-SAS 165
12. Yao Ming-HOU 156
13. Elton Brand-LAC 154
14. Greg Ostertag-UTA 139
15. Erick Dampier-GSW 137
16. Pau Gasol-MEM 132
17. Donyell Marshall-TOT 124
18. Dikembe Mutombo-NYK 123
Etan Thomas-WAS 123
20. Rasheed Wallace-TOT 122

I would give anything for the Spurs to get back to having two prime time shot blockers in the starting lineup :depressed
Damn, I want this Theo Ratliff.

[ElNono]

Damn, I want this Theo Ratliff.

You got him... he still averages almost a block a game(!) in 9 mpg this season.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm a little lost....are some of you guys here actually defending using undersized centers? Am I the only one seeing us getting raped at the rim night in and night out? Funneling players to the help down low only equates to layups and dunks these days....not exactly the Spurs defense I remember.

I wouldn't sweat it too much. Those folks also defended, and continue to defend, the choice to go small in 2006 against Dallas.