Brendan Haywood and Caron Butler close to being Mavericks

[Spurgio]

Just saw it on NBAtv, deal would send Josh Howard and Drew Gooden to Washington.


I guess we can scratch Haywood off our trade speculation list.

[weebo]

That would be a good tradde for the mavs.

[ShoogarBear]

Holy crap. Did Rolando Blackman replace Ernie Grunfeld as GM of the Wiz?

[ezau]

ok we're fucked

[lurker23]

Here's Adrian Wojnarowski's info:

The Washington Wizards and Dallas Mavericks are nearing completion on a trade that will exchange Caron Butler and Josh Howard, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

The teams were negotiating whether to expand the trade to include Wizards center Brendan Haywood, but one source with knowledge of the talks said he doesn’t expect the core of the deal – Butler and Howard – to unravel. Wizards guard DeShawn Stevenson is expected to be moved to Dallas in either deal involving Butler.

The Mavericks would send Quinton Ross or Tim Thomas and possibly Drew Gooden to Washington if the trade also includes Haywood.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsD4gDgKBQwLE.eXJG2uYvS8vLYF?slug=aw-wizardsmavstrade021210&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


So, the Butler/Howard part sounds all but done. Spurs fans should cheer for the Gooden/Haywood part being kept out somehow.

[ezau]

But damn, a Butler/Haywood addition to the Mavs would give them supreme flexibility whoever they face.

[Budkin]

I didn't think we had much of a chance at the division before but we are definitely not winning it now.

[baseline bum]

ok we're fucked

This team has to be more concerned with Houston and Memphis than Dallas right now if it doesn't start playing more like it did last night. The Spurs have the talent to curbstomp the new and improved Mavs anyways. If somehow we could take the team to Oz and get Jefferson a heart and Pop a brain, the only foe that would matter would be LA.

[ShoogarBear]

If it's just Butler for Howard, then that makes sense for both teams, although still an upgrade for Dallas.

If it includes Gooden for Haywood, that a gain for the Mavs and makes absolutely no sense for the Wiz.

[Sisk]

so they're trading spur killer? hmm

[ezau]

This team has to be more concerned with Houston and Memphis than Dallas right now if it doesn't start playing more like it did last night. The Spurs have the talent to curbstomp the new and improved Mavs anyways. If somehow we could take the team to Oz and get Jefferson a heart and Pop a brain, the only foe that would matter would be LA.

The Mavs own us this year until we prove otherwise. With them getting two high-quality players, we're going to have an even tougher time matching up with them.

[murpjf88]

Butler would be a great addition, but as long as Haywood is out of the deal, they can still be toppled.

[sribb43]

so they're trading spur killer? hmm

it wont matter if spurs arent in the playoffs anyways...:toast

[rascal]

Great trade for the Mavs. I don't know why the spurs have never had any interest in trading for Butler. Never heard they tried to trade for him and he has been traded a few times now. And Haywood is an upgrade to Gooden.

[Rito3d30]

Fuck that man....
Is this season over?:depressed

[Spurgio]

How should the spurs react ?

Iguodala/Dalembert ?

[Dre_7]

If somehow we could take the team to Oz and get Jefferson a heart and Pop a brain, the only foe that would matter would be LA.

:lol It would be funnier if it wasnt so true. lol :depressed

[TIMMYD!]

And now the Cavs are in negotiations for Amar''''''''e.

[baseline bum]

Goddamnit, why couldn't Arenas have pulled that gat a few months earlier?

[Allanon]

How should the spurs react ?

Iguodala/Dalembert ?

Igoudala gets paid $16 million in 2014.

I'm not sure if the Spurs would go for such a long contract.

[ShoogarBear]

And now the Cavs are in negotiations for Amar''''''''e.

For what, Z and Varejeo? That could be very risky.

[ezau]

Well looks like the Spurs have to react. Then again, the team might just stand pat and see what happens

[ShoogarBear]

The Spurs brass is in deep discussion as we speak on how to react. Currently, they are devising plans for Roger Mason Jr and George Hill to guard Haywood.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs brass is in deep discussion as we speak on how to react. Currently, they are devising plans for Roger Mason Jr and George Hill to guard Haywood.

:nope

You know better than that. Finley's healthy again.

[Marcus Bryant]

Igoudala gets paid $16 million in 2014.

I'm not sure if the Spurs would go for such a long contract.

So what? Only the Coyote has a longer deal.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs aren't affected one way or another by this trade, IMO. If the Spurs can't generate some momentum from the Denver game, it doesn't matter when they're watching from the lottery. If they can turn it around, then all they need are some wiser lineup choices and they'll be fine against anyone. Mark Cuban loves trading his baseball cards this time of year, but it's motion without direction.

[baseline bum]

Igoudala gets paid $16 million in 2014.

I'm not sure if the Spurs would go for such a long contract.

Depends on if Holt wants to go balls out for a title (again), or just try to maintain the losses he has right now and not blow them up further. Obviously I'd prefer the former, but I'd have no problem with the latter after the way he and the rest of the ownership group stepped up to give this team what should be (have been? :depressed) another shot at a title.

[MmP]

Remeber they'll be Mavs from now on. Ergo..PO chockers

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dallas media is reporting it as Howard + Gooden + Singleton + Ross for Haywood, Butler, and Stevenson.

[HarlemHeat37]

The Butler part doesn't matter to me..it's an upgrade, but Butler isn't a player I worry about..it's that they get Haywood too that sucks, and it also makes it worse because a lot of us wanted him here, even though we probably don't have the pieces(and don't want to take back Stevenson)..

[Ice009]

Dallas media is reporting it as Howard + Gooden + Singleton + Ross for Haywood, Butler, and Stevenson.

I wanted Haywood on the Spurs.

If that is the trade then it is a great trade for Dallas.

[Sean Cagney]

I wanted Haywood on the Spurs.

If that is the trade then it is a great trade for Dallas.

Yep we are f'ed again, once again a bad year turns worse, and this after out big win in Denver! It goes from a somewhat positive to worse now! I swear can we catch a break this year?

[slick'81]

huge upgrade in the middle for bigD and butler for howard is just gravy

[eyeh8u]

lets hope haywood fails his physical because of an irregular heart beat. ;)

[Sean Cagney]

huge upgrade in the middle for bigD and butler for howard is just gravy

Yep we are fukked once again, we were only 1 and 1/2 back of a struggling Mavs team, now we are going to be further back if they get better and forget about winning htis division here! This is not good news here unless we make a good deal too, otherwise we are easily 2nd best in the conference and a 5th or 6th seed (Dallas in round one that means). Man this just keeps getting worse for us :depressed:depressed

[cdcast]

The Haywood part of trade makes no sense for Wiz-- trading an expiring
for other expirings.

[Spursfan 87]

The Spurs can counter this getting Salmons and Thomas

[Obstructed_View]

Yep we are fukked once again, we were only 1 and 1/2 back of a struggling Mavs team, now we are going to be further back if they get better and forget about winning htis division here! This is not good news here unless we make a good deal too, otherwise we are easily 2nd best in the conference and a 5th or 6th seed (Dallas in round one that means). Man this just keeps getting worse for us :depressed:depressed

If the Spurs are actually that bad, then they wouldn't have beaten LA, so it really doesn't matter.

[Sean Cagney]

If the Spurs are actually that bad, then they wouldn't have beaten LA, so it really doesn't matter.

Yes but to be beaten out BY DALLAS in the playoffs two years in a row would hurt bad, their fans would talk forever on it! Especially if we were healthy! Are we that bad? I don't think we are, but seriously if they don't get it together soon nor make a trade for someone then it's curtains for us this year, in which I thought we could compete for another title at the beginning of it.
The Spurs can counter this getting Salmons and Thomas

Thats a flat out dream and speculation now, otherwise we stand pat and Dallas gets better, and they already were a problem to us BIGTIME!

[newacc]

Iguodala wouldn't be an answer for the Spurs. Below average outside shooting and can't create a quality shot on his own when defenses lock down.

[Mark in Austin]

From a Spurs fan perspective, the smaller deal with just Howard and Butler both improves the Mavs overall and makes tham an easier opponent for SA given how well Howard works to remind the FO that they should have drafted him every time he plays SA.

The bigger trade? Haywood is an upgrade over Damp and Gooden for sure.

[FeZZy]

Camby? nahhhh

[ShoogarBear]

The Haywood part of trade makes no sense for Wiz-- trading an expiring
for other expirings.

Exactly. Instead of getting better offers, Ernie Grunfeld just got bent over.

If the Wiz are going to ever get better, he needs to go.

[angelbelow]

damn wtf

[MavDynasty]

Ill miss Smokey against SAS but fuck him whenever he plays another team.

[Mark in Austin]

Igoudala gets paid $16 million in 2014.

I'm not sure if the Spurs would go for such a long contract.


Igoudala is the player they wish Jefferson turned out to be, and Dalembert would give them a legit big man to pair with Duncan. It would be the best option out there that has been brought up in terms of talent acquisition, but it's a pipe dream.

The problem I see is that Philly has made it clear that they want more than cap relief for Igoudala - so it will likely take Manu + Jefferson + Splitter's rights + ?.

[Allanon]

Igoudala is the player they wish Jefferson turned out to be, and Dalembert would give them a legit big man to pair with Duncan. It would be the best option out there that has been brought up in terms of talent acquisition, but it's a pipe dream.

The problem I see is that Philly has made it clear that they want more than cap relief for Igoudala - so it will likely take Manu + Jefferson + Splitter's rights + ?.

Depends on if Holt wants to go balls out for a title (again), or just try to maintain the losses he has right now and not blow them up further. Obviously I'd prefer the former, but I'd have no problem with the latter after the way he and the rest of the ownership group stepped up to give this team what should be (have been? :depressed) another shot at a title.

I agree on both points. Iggy's play is what RJ's should have been.

And you can't really fault ownership for stepping up and putting up the money to build a contender. It just didn't work out; not for a lack of trying. I know alot of you hate RJ but at the time, it sure sounded great. Nobody knew Dice and Ratliff would turn 40 overnight and that RJ would play like Luke's worse half.

Dalembert is so-so. However, he's an upgrade for the Spurs and provides the Spurs with younger depth. One of the major problems with the Dice & Ratliff acquisitions is that age actually caught up with them.

Iggy's a no-brainer but his long, long, long contract and yet another RJ like player may be redundant unless RJ is included in the deal (doubtful but possible since he's only signed until next year). The talent in return is a legitimate question. I'd think the Sixers would require no less than Big Hill or Beast and maybe even both.

[Bruno]

That's a damn great trade for Mavs. Haywood and Dampier will allow them to play 48mpg with a very good defensive center. Their defense will be significantly better after that trade. Butler is also a nice upgrade over Howard who struggled to be back at a good level.

Mavs and Nuggets aren't that far from the Lakers. Let's hope Spurs will also do a trade that put them closer to the true contenders.

[urunobili]

can't wait for Josh LBJ against the Spurs Howard get traded away... GTFO

[Danny.Zhu]

Congrats Dallas. You finally get what you need to defeat LA.

[mountainballer]

ummm.
not only is this a great trade for the Mavs, they close the gap to the Lakers, it could also turn into a disaster trade for us, if we play the Mavs again in the PO.
you don't want to have Haywood cover Tim. (he will be a much tougher defender for Tim than Dampier). and even if Josh Howard always did a lot of damage to the Spurs, you also don't want to meet Caron Butler with Jefferson virtually the only option to guard him. Butler is a so much better passer and ball handler than JH, I'm really not looking forward to face all the plays the Mavs can run with him and Dirk, that JH couldn't.
Mavs have been a bad match up for us for years. with this trade the match ups turn even worse.
and as someone mentioned, a TT+Salmons addition makes even more sense looking at those match ups.
(I would feel much better with the option of TT guarding Dirk and Salmons guarding Butler)

[sefant77]

The Haywood part of trade makes no sense for Wiz-- trading an expiring
for other expirings.

There will be probably a 2nd trade where the Mavs trade their TE from the Humphries trade for one of Oberto/Young/Mcgee.

So the Wiz can save a lot of money and LT. They also get rid of the useless Stevenson with 5mio next year.

[mountainballer]

There will be probably a 2nd trade where the Mavs trade their TE from the Humphries trade for one of Oberto/Young/Mcgee.

So the Wiz can save a lot of money and LT. They also get rid of the useless Stevenson with 5mio next year.

possible. but I doubt it will be a young talent like McGee or Young. Oberto to Mavs to reduce lux tax makes sense. (he would be waived by the Mavs I assume)

[DirkISaCocLuvinPuSSy]

ahhhhh dude are you fo'reals! if the Mavs get Butler and Haywood that would be uber gheyness. Lets hope this misses up like there Kobe deal did a couple years ago. I hate those cock goblins, BTW death to anything Mav!!! :wow

[Chomag]

At least some teams have the balls to try to improve their team. Damn, and I hate Cuben more then anyone in basketball. :lol

Got to give him props here if he gets it done though.

[JP le Requin]

lets hope they will lost all their chemistry with this trade while we win better chemistry staying together......

[Silver&Black Warrior]

This team has to be more concerned with Houston and Memphis than Dallas right now if it doesn't start playing more like it did last night. The Spurs have the talent to curbstomp the new and improved Mavs anyways. If somehow we could take the team to Oz and get Jefferson a heart and Pop a brain, the only foe that would matter would be LA.

:lol :rollin :lmao

[bigfan]

Drew Gooden must have a salary and skill level that just makes him tradebait. If it werent for all the millions he earns, I feel kinda sorry that he hasnt settled into one team. Hes not a great player but he is pretty darn good, works hard, seems to be a nice guy and well behaved citizen (as opposed to that doper Howard), anyway, good luck to him, he did a pretty good job as a Spur.

[lmbebo]

Pretty much a done deal as per BSPN...

Should make Dallas more dangerous on paper. Lets see how they play once together..

[Big P]

For what, Z and Varejeo? That could be very risky.

Z would be cut & allowed to go back to the cavs after 30 days.

[ohmwrecker]

Butler is a marginal upgrade over Howard at best and I don't think Haywood is really deserving of all the trade deadline hype he has been getting around here lately. The Spurs actually did put out feelers for Butler last year, but didn't want to give up Manu to get him. I'm not really for Spurs/Wizards deal and having a defeatist attitude about any trade another team makes is the wrong approach. The only deal for the Spurs that has any legs is the one for Thomas. Thomas would give the Spurs a long, athletic "tweener" who would, hopefully, be a big help defending guys like Odom, Nowitzki or Anthony and have the quickness to give opponent's bigs a headache trying to defend him. However, I don't think we should give up a whole lot to get Thomas either. If we don't settle into a firm rotation and start playing championship d, none of this matters anyway.

[I-Ball]

Drew Gooden must have a salary and skill level that just makes him tradebait. If it werent for all the millions he earns, I feel kinda sorry that he hasnt settled into one team. Hes not a great player but he is pretty darn good, works hard, seems to be a nice guy and well behaved citizen (as opposed to that doper Howard), anyway, good luck to him, he did a pretty good job as a Spur.

+1
could say the same about his time as a mav.
but his expiring contract is needed to make the salaries match.


possible. but I doubt it will be a young talent like McGee or Young. Oberto to Mavs to reduce lux tax makes sense. (he would be waived by the Mavs I assume)

maybe he will be waived, but i doubt it.
if the butler/haywood trade happens, the mavs will have two open roster spots. oberto could take one as a back up center, while dampier isn't fully healthy. he would be an insurance as a third center on the mavs roster (should be better suited as center than najera)

[portnoy1]

The spurs have to make a move now. The spurs defense was good this past game, but it has to go back to the twin tower look. Duncan and somebody who is an athletic 6-10(TThomas/TMurphy) or a 7-0 guy who simply takes up space in the lane(Nesterovic/Dalembert). When Pop plays small ball its way easier to get to the basket when you have the only big out there (Duncan) away from the basket trying to help on a pick n roll. With no backline help its impossible to defend the rim. All the good teams use 2 bigs TOGETHER. Lakers - Bynum 7-1/Gasol7-0/Odom6-10 Cavs - Shaq7-1/Varejo6-11/BigZ7-3 Nuggets - Martin6-10/Nene6-11/Birdman6-11 Celtics - KG7-0/Perkins6-10/Sheed6-11 Hawks - Shorter but more atheltic - Josh Smith6-9/Horford6-10/Pachulia6-11. An Then the Spurs - Duncan6-11/Mcdyess6-9/Blair6-7. What wrong with that picture?!!!!

[gospursgojas]

Caron is just a slight upgrade from howard...and haywood is overhyped.

[portnoy1]

Caron is just a slight upgrade from howard...and haywood is overhyped.
Yes and No IMO. Howard has length, but can be an idiot. Butler seems to be a good solid player you wont get any problems out of. He can also do the same exact things Howard does. Haywood IMO, is a huge pickup!!! He is Dampier 2.0 and younger if my memory serves me right. He has a better offensive game from what I remember too. We (Spurs) gotta do something to clean up the mess we have at the SF and C position.

[portnoy1]

Getting Gortat/Pietrus from the Magic would be nice. You get a Center who can produce in limited minutes and takes up space in the paint. In Pietrus you get a Wing scorer/defender who is 28 and is still athletic and has a solid 3pt shot. Both of them would cost about $5.5million each. From what I hear the Magic would like to move Gortat; Pietrus may be a difficult acquistion, but with Carter balling and Reddick playing pretty well they may be willing to deal.

[SPURSGOAT]

Ugh! We need a nice trade like this...

[dallaskd]

Caron is just a slight upgrade from howard...and haywood is overhyped.

I agree Haywood may be a little overhyped, but he's a damn good center and a piece dallas has been looking for for the past decade. He has the strength and defensive ability Dampier has, but also has a tight game in the post as well. Solid trade for the mavs. Im exciting to see this lineup on the floor..

Kidd
Butler
Marion
Dirk
Haywood

with terry, thomas, damp, and roddy comming off the bench. Thats a damn good lineup. Ill put the starting lineup over anyone except maybe Cleveland and Boston.

[CGD]

Great upgrade if Dallas pulls this off without having to part with Rodrigue. Talent wise it's probably a lateral move -- though Haywood does provides a bit more punch (but not much) than Damps who has been playing decently in a contract year. But fit wise Dallas brings in a relatively more stable player in Butler and gets rid of its proverbial cancer. I also don't see the drop in talent from Howard to Butler as that significant.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The spurs have to make a move now. The spurs defense was good this past game, but it has to go back to the twin tower look. Duncan and somebody who is an athletic 6-10(TThomas/TMurphy) or a 7-0 guy who simply takes up space in the lane(Nesterovic/Dalembert). When Pop plays small ball its way easier to get to the basket when you have the only big out there (Duncan) away from the basket trying to help on a pick n roll. With no backline help its impossible to defend the rim. All the good teams use 2 bigs TOGETHER. Lakers - Bynum 7-1/Gasol7-0/Odom6-10 Cavs - Shaq7-1/Varejo6-11/BigZ7-3 Nuggets - Martin6-10/Nene6-11/Birdman6-11 Celtics - KG7-0/Perkins6-10/Sheed6-11 Hawks - Shorter but more atheltic - Josh Smith6-9/Horford6-10/Pachulia6-11. An Then the Spurs - Duncan6-11/Mcdyess6-9/Blair6-7. What wrong with that picture?!!!!

http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg

[Ghazi]

How many people have I seen call Caron a marginal upgrade over Josh Howard?

Josh howard has been HORRIBLE this year. Hell it makes me miss last years version of Josh, which fucking sucked as well...

[Truckules]

The reason Haywood got all of the hype around here is because he fit our team's biggest need: a tall, good rebounding, good shot-blocking, good post-defending, not offensively challenged big man.

[Mark in Austin]

I agree on both points. Iggy's play is what RJ's should have been.

And you can't really fault ownership for stepping up and putting up the money to build a contender. It just didn't work out; not for a lack of trying. I know alot of you hate RJ but at the time, it sure sounded great. Nobody knew Dice and Ratliff would turn 40 overnight and that RJ would play like Luke's worse half.

Dalembert is so-so. However, he's an upgrade for the Spurs and provides the Spurs with younger depth. One of the major problems with the Dice & Ratliff acquisitions is that age actually caught up with them.

Iggy's a no-brainer but his long, long, long contract and yet another RJ like player may be redundant unless RJ is included in the deal (doubtful but possible since he's only signed until next year). The talent in return is a legitimate question. I'd think the Sixers would require no less than Big Hill or Beast and maybe even both.

Agreed - I still say that RJ for expirings was the right move to make - it just didn't work out. Credit to the FO and ownership for having the balls to take a chance (a decidedly BAMA move in Spurstalk vernacular).

But I think the only way the Spurs do it is if they can get rid of RJ. Manu + RJ gives philly 9.5 million in savings next year plus they would not necessarily pay the lux tax and get a refund depending on the other moves they make. After next year, it would save Philly and additional 44 million.

I doubt that Philly would want another undersized PF, but with his Penn ties Blair might be the exception. Hill + Splitter lets them start rebuilding.

For the Spurs I think this would necessitate another move though - even in his current state losing Manu would be tough to overcome given how clutch he is in the playoffs.

[crc21209]

How many people have I seen call Caron a marginal upgrade over Josh Howard?

Josh howard has been HORRIBLE this year. Hell it makes me miss last years version of Josh, which fucking sucked as well...

What you fail to realize is this though, as horrible as you say he's been, everytime he plays the Spurs..he's like Michael freakin' Jordan out there. He ALWAYS plays well against the Spurs...so this might be a blessing in disguise for the Spurs. The Spurs killers are gone...first it was Harris, Diop, and now Howard. All that's left is Dirk and Terry..

[CGD]

How many people have I seen call Caron a marginal upgrade over Josh Howard?

Josh howard has been HORRIBLE this year. Hell it makes me miss last years version of Josh, which fucking sucked as well...

I'll defer to your assessment as to whether Howard has been horrible or not. Living in the DC-area and watching the Wiz regularly, I'm confident in my assessment that folks are overrating Butler's talent with respect to this trade. I'm not arguing that he is not a good player (he is), but don't look at his stats and forget that he was "the guy" for the Wiz for most of the last two season.

I still think that a "motivated" Howard > Butler. My point is that the trade is still an upgrade for Dallas because the team gets rid of a player that for whatever reason has decided to squander his talent by (1) not caring, (2) causing off the court distractions from time to time, and/or (3) generally being lazy.

[MaNu4Tres]

If this trade goes through without the Wizards getting Beaubois back and a 1st rounder at least the Wizards are beyond retarded.

[CGD]

If this trade goes through without the Wizards getting Beaubois back and a 1st rounder at least the Wizards are beyond retarded.

I tend to be of the same opinion (and have made similar posts), but the Wiz are also VERY cash-strpped. This move saves them the 10.5M they owe Butler next year. Howard's nearly 12M next year is a team option, which I'm willing to bet the Wiz wouldn't pick up. Sadly, its Gilbert's absurd contract that is KILLING the Wiz.

[MaNu4Tres]

I tend to be of the same opinion (and have made similar posts), but the Wiz are also VERY cash-strpped. This move saves them the 10.5M they owe Butler next year. Howard's nearly 12M next year is a team option, which I'm willing to bet the Wiz wouldn't pick up. Sadly, its Gilbert's absurd contract that is KILLING the Wiz.

If that's the case you only offer Butler for Howard straight up and try to pry a 1st round pick as well.

Then use Haywood in completely different trade. I'm pretty sure they can do better than Gooden for Haywood straight up.

[MaNu4Tres]

Basically it's like Spurs getting Haywood for Bonner and Finley straight up with Finley coming back after 30 days.

[raspsa]

If this trade pushes through, it definitely helps Dallas.

[Mel_13]

If that's the case you only offer Butler for Howard straight up and try to pry a 1st round pick as well.

Then use Haywood in completely different trade. I'm pretty sure they can do better than Gooden for Haywood straight up.

Haywood for Gooden makes no sense for Washington, but we'll have to see what the final deal looks like. My understanding from all the reporting is that Dallas has to take Stevenson (and the 4M he is due next season) if they want Haywood.

If the trade is Howard, Gooden, Ross, and Singleton for Butler, Haywood, and Stevenson, then Washington saves about 3M in salary and tax this season and about 15M in salary next season. They also get well under the cap for next season.

[CGD]

If that's the case you only offer Butler for Howard straight up and try to pry a 1st round pick as well.

Then use Haywood in completely different trade. I'm pretty sure they can do better than Gooden for Haywood straight up.

From what I'm reading that's precisely the issue going on in the negotiations (see lucker23's earlier post re: Wojnarowski's article). If it were up to the Wiz I think it would be a straight up deal (plus some minor parts), but the Mavs are insisting on Haywood (aka, Damps 2.0).

The concern for the Wiz is that if they piss off Cuban by stonewalling on Haywood, that the Mav's won't agree to take Butler's contract. Mavs really have most of the leverage in this deal, especially because talent-wise Butler for Howard is really a lateral move (see my post above).

[MaNu4Tres]

From what I'm reading that's precisely the issue going on in the negotiations (see lucker23's earlier post re: Wojnarowski's article). If it were up to the Wiz I think it would be a straight up deal (plus some minor parts), but the Mavs are insisting on Haywood (aka, Damps 2.0).

The concern for the Wiz is that if they piss off Cuban by stonewalling on Haywood, that the Mav's won't agree to take Butler's contract. Mavs really have most of the leverage in this deal, especially because talent-wise Butler for Howard is really a lateral move (see my post above).

Butler for Howard is not a lateral move for the Wizards. Wizards aren't trying to win this year. Howard is going to be a 2 month rental to close out their horrifying season. They shouldn't measure value in the trade that comes with the player of the expiring contract for Butler. They should value assets for the future.

Why get value in a player back that has an expiring contract oppose to future assets if you are destined for the lottery?

I'm convinced Kill Bill Pana or Sequ (with all due respect) could be a better GM that the one over there in Washington.

As Simmons stated via twitter

www.twitter.com/sportsguy33

" If that Wash-Dallas trade happens, the Wizards should cancel "Throw Feces At Our Fans" Night because it would be redundant."

[CGD]

Butler for Howard is not a lateral move for the Wizards. Wizards aren't trying to win this year. Howard is going to be a 2 month rental to close out their horrifying season. They shouldn't measure value in the trade that comes with the player of the expiring contract for Butler. They should value assets for the future.

Why get value in a player back that has an expiring contract oppose to future assets if you are destined for the lottery?

I'm convinced Kill Bill Pana or Sequ (with all due respect) could be a better GM that the one over there in Washington.

As Simmons stated via twitter

www.twitter.com/sportsguy33

" If that Wash-Dallas trade happens, the Wizards should cancel "Throw Feces At Our Fans" Night because it would be redundant."

You lost me bud...

Recapping some points
1. I guess I haven't been around long enough to get the Kill Bill/Sequ reference.

2. Simmon's is most likely reacting to the Haywood part of the trade (i.e, not getting enough value in return), not the Howard for Butler portion.

3. I never argued that the Howard-Bulter trade was a lateral move for the Wiz; I argued it was a lateral move for Dallas talent-wise. The bigger point was that Dallas has the leverage in the trade negotiations because without including Haywood, it is unlikely that Dallas would also agree to take on Butler's contract. I have NO DOUBT that if the Wiz had more chips in the game that they would aggressively push for future picks or even Rodrigue, but they don't.

4. Wiz are more concerned with cap relief at this point than anything else. I'm not suggesting that their is a "proper" way to value talent or not.

[ShoogarBear]

If this trade goes through without the Wizards getting Beaubois back and a 1st rounder at least the Wizards are beyond retarded.


Sadly, its Gilbert's absurd contract that is KILLING the Wiz.


the Wizards are beyond retarded.

[Mel_13]

Haywood for Gooden makes no sense for Washington, but we'll have to see what the final deal looks like. My understanding from all the reporting is that Dallas has to take Stevenson (and the 4M he is due next season) if they want Haywood.

If the trade is Howard, Gooden, Ross, and Singleton for Butler, Haywood, and Stevenson, then Washington saves about 3M in salary and tax this season and about 15M in salary next season. They also get well under the cap for next season.


That's the deal. Talent upgrade for Mavs, 18M in cost savings for Washington.

From Mark Stein:

Mavs and Wizards have completed their trade call with the league office. Deal will be announced later tonight. Seven-player swap in the end

DAL gets Butler, Haywood and Stevenson as was always the case once teams agreed Friday. WASH gets Josh Howard, Gooden, Q. Ross and Singleton

http://twitter.com/STEIN_LINE_HQ

[slick'81]

i just wonder will blatche finally go off in dc now in the middle?!?

[mavsfan1000]

Man this is awesome. The most excited I've been in a while about a trade. Howard has had his worst season in his career this year. His athleticism looks gone.

[objective]

The Wizards are making a terrible trade, wtf? Throwing in an expiring Haywood and not at least getting back a 1st? Getting nothing for Butler? Not even a first?

There really does need to be an NBA trade committee.

[benefactor]

We are probably screwed regardless...but if we stand pat and don't push for the Thomas trade we are really screwed. This trade puts us even further behind the impact teams.

[gm5k]

:bang

however, this does make me hate Dallas a bit less because I'm a big Butler fan.

this looks to be an amazing trade for them.

[Come_On_Now]

The trade will be finalized tonight. The trade is:

Singleton
Ross
Gooden
Howard

for

Haywood
Butler
Stevenson

[slick'81]

The Wizards are making a terrible trade, wtf? Throwing in an expiring Haywood and not at least getting back a 1st? Getting nothing for Butler? Not even a first?

There really does need to be an NBA trade committee.


for real this goes beyond being not fair rotflmao

then again it gives me hope next season we can get something for rj

[DAF86]

How should the spurs react ?

Iguodala/Dalembert ?

That would be a dream, they both adress a need of us: AI the defensive wing and Dalembert the tall athletic bigman.

Do you think the Sixers would go for this + a draft pick, money and/or wathever they want to make the deal work?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhhk8ag

[TD 21]

We are probably screwed regardless...but if we stand pat and don't push for the Thomas trade we are really screwed. This trade puts us even further behind the impact teams.

Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't. I think this trade gives them the potential to be and I agree that the Spurs need to do something, preferably acquire Thomas, but the Mavs still aren't legit contenders with this trade and the problem lies in the core. I consider Butler a legit number two star, but when it get's down to the money season and in crunch time in a playoff game, I'm not confident in Nowitzki, Butler and Terry, as the three main scorers. I'd take Bryant, Gasol and Odom, Anthony, Billups and Nene and Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, before I'd take that trio.

The Mavs are capable of getting past the Spurs with this trade (mainly because this gives them a second center to throw at Duncan and he happens to be better than the incumbent), capable of getting past the Jazz, maybe even the Nuggets (though I doubt it), but there's no chance they beat the Lakers in a series and really, that's what it's all about. It's not about going from being the 4th or 5th best team in the conference to the 2nd or (far more likely) 3rd best team in the conference.

[objective]

fwiw, Washington still has a trade exception due to the Pecherov trade according to the trade machine, so if the Spurs wanted to dump Mahinmi the Wizards would be a candidate.

[badfish22]

Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't. I think this trade gives them the potential to be and I agree that the Spurs need to do something, preferably acquire Thomas, but the Mavs still aren't legit contenders with this trade and the problem lies in the core. I consider Butler a legit number two star, but when it get's down to the money season and in crunch time in a playoff game, I'm not confident in Nowitzki, Butler and Terry, as the three main scorers. I'd take Bryant, Gasol and Odom, Anthony, Billups and Nene and Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, before I'd take that trio.

The Mavs are capable of getting past the Spurs with this trade (mainly because this gives them a second center to throw at Duncan and he happens to be better than the incumbent), capable of getting past the Jazz, maybe even the Nuggets (though I doubt it), but there's no chance they beat the Lakers in a series and really, that's what it's all about. It's not about going from being the 4th or 5th best team in the conference to the 2nd or (far more likely) 3rd best team in the conference.

I feel stupider...........

this might be the dumbest thing i've ever read. Spurfan is better than this (usually)

[EricB]

:lol @ Tyrus Thomas being the new "savior"

[gm5k]

:lol @ Tyrus Thomas being the new "savior"

that really is hilarious :lol

[DAF86]

I feel stupider...........

this might be the dumbest thing i've ever read. Spurfan is better than this (usually)

In your case I didn't think that was possible.

[TD 21]

I feel stupider...........

this might be the dumbest thing i've ever read. Spurfan is better than this (usually)

Why, because you're a delusional Mavs fan who thinks this vaults the Mavs into the stratosphere of the contenders? The reality is it more than likely won't and this is coming from someone who probably overrates Butler, if anything. I like Haywood too, so it's not a matter of me underrating the players coming back, I just didn't think the Mavs were very good to begin with. Terrible point differential and if not for their pulling numerous games out of their ass late (they're the king of this for about four years running), they'd have a far worse record than they do. Admit it, how impressive have the Mavs been this season? If you're honest, not very.

Don't turn this into "look at the Spurs" because we're not talking about the Spurs. We're talking about does this trade make the Mavs a legit contender and I don't think it does.

[exstatic]

Man this is awesome. The most excited I've been in a while about a trade. Howard has had his worst season in his career this year. His athleticism looks gone.

Butler isn't exactly tearing it up. Other than rebounding, his numbers are down across the board.

[badfish22]

Why, because you're a delusional Mavs fan who thinks this vaults the Mavs into the stratosphere of the contenders? The reality is it more than likely won't and this is coming from someone who probably overrates Butler, if anything. I like Haywood too, so it's not a matter of me underrating the players coming back, I just didn't think the Mavs were very good to begin with. Terrible point differential and if not for their pulling numerous games out of their ass late (they're the king of this for about four years running), they'd have a far worse record than they do. Admit it, how impressive have the Mavs been this season? If you're honest, not very.

Don't turn this into "look at the Spurs" because we're not talking about the Spurs. We're talking about does this trade make the Mavs a legit contender and I don't think it does.

I love how in your first post you say that clutch shooting is our problem, and in your second post you criticize the Mavs for winning a lot of close games. You're a fucking moron......

And no, we haven't been that impressive but when you say "Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't" It confirms that your just a delusional spurfan.

[EricB]

Butler isn't exactly tearing it up. Other than rebounding, his numbers are down across the board.

That plus he's not a known "spur killer" like Josh Howard.

[TD 21]

I love how in your first post you say that clutch shooting is our problem, and in your second post you criticize the Mavs for winning a lot of close games. You're a fucking moron......

And no, we haven't been that impressive but when you say "Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't" It confirms that your just a delusional spurfan.

You're obviously a novice fan. First of all, I never specifically used the term "clutch shooting" and second of all, there's a big difference between edging out run of the mill teams in the regular season and beating credible or elite competition in the playoffs.

I'm not at all delusional. I don't consider the Spurs to be a contender, but I consider them to be better than the Mavs. They were last season (point to the playoff series all you want, if Duncan was healthy and Ginobili was playing, I'm confident the Spurs win that) and this season, despite trailing roughly two games behind the Mavs all season in the standings, if you look at the team stats A LOT of them indicate that the Spurs are in fact the better team. Not by a landslide, but better. Like I said, this trade has the potential to change that.

[badfish22]

You're obviously a novice fan. First of all, I never specifically used the term "clutch shooting" and second of all, there's a big difference between edging out run of the mill teams in the regular season and beating credible or elite competition in the playoffs.

I'm not at all delusional. I don't consider the Spurs to be a contender, but I consider them to be better than the Mavs. They were last season (point to the playoff series all you want, if Duncan was healthy and Ginobili was playing, I'm confident the Spurs win that) and this season, despite trailing roughly two games behind the Mavs all season in the standings, if you look at the team stats A LOT of them indicate that the Spurs are in fact the better team. Not by a landslide, but better. Like I said, this trade has the potential to change that.

Well does this season not count? We've beaten the Spurs twice. And this trade only makes us better. So.......

yeah you're delusional and/or butthurt.

[ace3g]

now that this trade is complete, others will fall into place, I think this really forces the Spurs to make a trade because they are in the same division , and if the Spurs can atleast win their division they get one of the top 3 spots in the playoffs

[DubMcDub]

The Spurs have the talent to curbstomp the new and improved Mavs anyways.

I think it's arguable that the Spurs are even more talented than the Mavs right now. And you're claiming not only that they'd be more talented post-Mavs trade, but also that the talent gap would be big enough such as to allow for a "curb stomping"?

Rich.

[TD 21]

Well does this season not count? We've beaten the Spurs twice. And this trade only makes us better. So.......

yeah you're delusional and/or butthurt.

If I had to rank teams in the league, I'd go Spurs 7th, Mavs 8th. That gives you an indication of how close I have them and I will say it yet again: this trade gives the Mavs the chance to be legitimately better than the Spurs, but that being said, no, I never thought that before this trade the Mavs could beat a healthy Spurs team in a playoff series. Once Duncan inevitably got Dampier in foul trouble, the Mavs didn't have a single other player who could even pretend to defend him straight up and eventually they'd have had to resort to double teamms, which opens up the Spurs 3-point shooting. Having Haywood changes all that.

I'm not trying to bring you down, I know you're probably excited, as well you should be, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see this trade making the Mavs legit contenders. I could be wrong, but that's just the way I see it.

[dallaskd]

I love how in your first post you say that clutch shooting is our problem, and in your second post you criticize the Mavs for winning a lot of close games. You're a fucking moron......

And no, we haven't been that impressive but when you say "Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't" It confirms that your just a delusional spurfan.

Dallas may be the most clutch team in the NBA this season. We have won so many close games. What is like over 10 straight one point wins now? A NBA record.

[elbamba]

Dallas may be the most clutch team in the NBA this season. We have won so many close games. What is like over 10 straight one point wins now? A NBA record.

Sadly, in the playoffs, being clutch takes on a different meaning and no one on the Mavs has shown that they are clutch in the playoffs.

[MavDynasty]

butthurt spurfan just being butthurt

[duncan228]

Mavs, Wizards complete deal with Howard, Butler (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-wizards-maverickstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns)
By Stephen Hawkins

The Mavericks have traded forward Josh Howard and Drew Gooden to the Washington Wizards in a seven-play deal that sends Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood to the Mavericks.

Howard was in his seventh season with Dallas, a span filled with promise and disappointment since being the 29th overall pick in 2003. Gooden, signed by Dallas last summer, will be going to his eighth team in eight NBA seasons.

It is a significant move for the Southwest Division-leading Mavericks (32-20), who lost five of their last seven games before the All-Star weekend in their city.

For the Wizards (17-33), the trade means more moves for the team that has already lost Gilbert Arenas and Javaris Crittenton after both were suspended last month by the NBA for the rest of the season after both admitted to bringing a gun into the locker room after a dispute stemming from a card game on a team flight.

[VBM]

Great deal for Dallas...

[benefactor]

:lol @ Tyrus Thomas being the new "savior"
Probably not...but as I said, it's better than doing nothing. Doing nothing pretty much secures a first round exit.

[Muser]

Dallas are damn scary now.

[DAF86]

Probably not...but as I said, it's better than doing nothing. Doing nothing pretty much secures a first round exit.

Wouldn't you rather have Igoudala and Dalembert than Thomas?

[DAF86]

Dallas are damn scary now.

They will be better than they were but I don't think they become serious contenders.

[slick'81]

yes dallas is scary timmy has to deal with 2 legit 7 footers that can defend and if butler gives them anything hes better than j-hoo

do spurs have to make a trade no but it couldnt hurt

[Chieflion]

I hate the Wizards.

[ffadicted]

Well, it's official, amazing trade for Dallas. They're a Jefferson-effect on Butler short of being up there with the Lakers/Nuggets/Magic/Cavs imo.

Jason Kidd
Jason Terry
Caron Butler
Dirk Nowitzki
Brendan Haywood

fuuuck

[slick'81]

I hate the Wizards.


ditto

[mardigan]

however, this does make me hate Dallas a bit less because I'm a big Butler fan.



I feel the same way but about Haywood. I've loved his game since his Carolina days.

[FeZZy]

i posted this when gilbert took his gun out...dammit SPURS!

[benefactor]

Only if you considered the Mavs legitimately better than the Spurs to begin with; I didn't. I think this trade gives them the potential to be and I agree that the Spurs need to do something, preferably acquire Thomas, but the Mavs still aren't legit contenders with this trade and the problem lies in the core. I consider Butler a legit number two star, but when it get's down to the money season and in crunch time in a playoff game, I'm not confident in Nowitzki, Butler and Terry, as the three main scorers. I'd take Bryant, Gasol and Odom, Anthony, Billups and Nene and Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, before I'd take that trio.

The Mavs are capable of getting past the Spurs with this trade (mainly because this gives them a second center to throw at Duncan and he happens to be better than the incumbent), capable of getting past the Jazz, maybe even the Nuggets (though I doubt it), but there's no chance they beat the Lakers in a series and really, that's what it's all about. It's not about going from being the 4th or 5th best team in the conference to the 2nd or (far more likely) 3rd best team in the conference.
I think it was pretty close to even, because both teams had the ability to play well or play inconsistently. I would probably still give the Mavs an edge over the Spurs before the trade purely because they hold the psychological edge in a head to head match up...kinda like the Spurs had over the Suns.

This trade gives them another solid big to play beside Dirk and provides an instant defensive upgrade. I agree with them not being a contender, but this certainly gives them a better shot and evens out their finesse/toughness ratio.

[DAF86]

I hate the Wizards.

The Spurs could work a deal with the Wizards too, if you want to hate something hate the Spurs passivity.

[benefactor]

Wouldn't you rather have Igoudala and Dalembert than Thomas?
Yes...but realistically that is not an option. Holt is not taking on Iggy's contract.

[VBM]

Well, if we hadn't been on cruise control the first couple months of the season, this wouldn't be too bad. Right now, the Mavs have a 3 game? lead on us in the division, and we have a brutal sched left. This might wrap up the division for Dallas...

[slick'81]

dallas said ftw with this deal

[DAF86]

Yes...but realistically that is not an option. Holt is not taking on Iggy's contract.

Well, just Dalembert instead of Thomas then.

[FeZZy]

well at least we know we are not definitely going to stay pat..A TRADE WILL HAPPEN NOW! we just got to wait and see they know if we don't do anything first round exit

[mardigan]

Well, just Dalembert instead of Thomas then.

His contract is awful. 24 mil for this year and next.

[objective]

Probably not...but as I said, it's better than doing nothing. Doing nothing pretty much secures a first round exit.

Doing nothing also runs a risk, however small, of the lottery.

[ace3g]

in the Thomas trade I'm more interested in Salmons (if he is included) because he would add another legit SG/SF, still not comfortable with Jefferson

Pop has been changing the rotations so much because he can't find any balance with Jefferson, if Salmons can come in and bring some stability to the SF spot and let Jefferson come off the bench

[5in10]

Well the question is what do the spurs do now? Stand pat, make a blockbuster trade, or make a minor trade? My feeling is first or third.

[DAF86]

His contract is awful. 24 mil for this year and next.

But he could help us a lot, besides after this season he becomes a very desirable expiring contract.

[benefactor]

Well, just Dalembert instead of Thomas then.
It wouldn't work for us from a personnel standpoint. We would have to rape our depth to get Dalembert while Bonner and Mahinmi works for Thomas.

[TD 21]

I think it was pretty close to even, because both teams had the ability to play well or play inconsistently. I would probably still give the Mavs an edge over the Spurs before the trade purely because they hold the psychological edge in a head to head match up...kinda like the Spurs had over the Suns.

This trade gives them another solid big to play beside Dirk and provides an instant defensive upgrade. I agree with them not being a contender, but this certainly gives them a better shot and evens out their finesse/toughness ratio.

That's basically what I said, though I said I'd give the slight edge to the Spurs because of their core's proven ability in the clutch, the fact that they have three guys who can take over a game down the stretch and the fact that I felt they matched up better with the Mavs than the Mavs did with them. Yeah, kind of like that...except for the fact that it's nothing like that at all.

Completely agree with your second paragraph.

[ffadicted]

well at least we know we are not definitely going to stay pat..A TRADE WILL HAPPEN NOW! we just got to wait and see they know if we don't do anything first round exit

I disagree completely, I remain 99% sure the spurs FO stays pat this year, they think they've got the roster they want

:depressed

[FeZZy]

I disagree completely, I remain 99% sure the spurs FO stays pat this year, they think they've got the roster they want

:depressed
maybe. but this may decide manu's choice for this summer :(

[mardigan]

But he could help us a lot, besides after this season he becomes a very desirable expiring contract.

I totally agree he would help tremendously, but as Benefactor said, the Spurs would have to give up a lot of depth to make the contracts match.

[murpjf88]

I disagree completely, I remain 99% sure the spurs FO stays pat this year, they think they've got the roster they want

:depressed

It remains to be seen whether the Spurs will make a move before the deadline, but they can't possibly think that this roster is capable of winning without getting some help in the paint.

[Spursfan 87]

Make the Chicago deal now!!!

[dbestpro]

The trade makes Dallas better than the Spurs which they probably already were. They maybe are equal to Denver. They still are not better than LA. So, if winning the division title was the goal for Dallas, then I would say they have accomplished their mission.

Now, for San Antonio. We do not need to make a trade to keep up with Dallas. We only need to make a trade if there is something that can put us on par with LA. Otherwise, we are off target and it would just be an act in futility.

[rascal]

That plus he's not a known "spur killer" like Josh Howard.

Butler > J Howard

[MaNu4Tres]

Can the Wizards buy out Howard since he's going to be gone in 2 months anyway?

[DubMcDub]

That's basically what I said, though I said I'd give the slight edge to the Spurs because of their core's proven ability in the clutch, the fact that they have three guys who can take over a game down the stretch and the fact that I felt they matched up better with the Mavs than the Mavs did with them. Yeah, kind of like that...except for the fact that it's nothing like that at all.

Completely agree with your second paragraph.

You are absolutely insane if you think the Spurs match up well with the Mavs, pre or post trade. I know for a fact timvp--who obviously knows a lot more than you about basketball--would disagree with that sentiment. The Mavs are one of the toughest matchups in the whole league for the Spurs, especially considering the Mavs' relative ineffectiveness against several other teams.

[Duncan2177]

I disagree completely, I remain 99% sure the spurs FO stays pat this year, they think they've got the roster they want

:depressed

If the spurs FO thinks that there in for a big fucken rude awakening.

[td4mvp21]

Seems like every day the Spurs get more and more fucked :lol

[Mel_13]

Can the Wizards buy out Howard since he's going to be gone in 2 months anyway?


They could, but it wouldn't make much sense.

The team option on Howard's contract for next season makes him an extremely valuable trade asset that could be used from the end of this season up until the date the option must be exercised or declined (typically, July 1st). During that time frame they can trade him for a package of players worth around 8M-12M and the other team could then decline Howard's option and save the total value of the contracts traded. Essentially, Washington can look at what a trade would bring them or decline the option and have the cap space to sign FAs.

That value is why Dallas wouldn't have done a straight Howard-Butler trade and the trade expanded to include Haywood.

[Sean Cagney]

well at least we know we are not definitely going to stay pat..A TRADE WILL HAPPEN NOW! we just got to wait and see they know if we don't do anything first round exit

Yeah right lol, they will have this oh we came close to getting so and so but it fell through and we will end up with some minor trade. I can see it now :depressed:depressed
You are absolutely insane if you think the Spurs match up well with the Mavs, pre or post trade. I know for a fact timvp--who obviously knows a lot more than you about basketball--would disagree with that sentiment. The Mavs are one of the toughest matchups in the whole league for the Spurs, especially considering the Mavs' relative ineffectiveness against several other teams.Before they were not close? How many of their games were blowouts this year? One went to OT and the other was close as well (Spurs won the other big). The Mavs are a tough matchup for the Spurs, but to say they were not a good matchup pre trade you are wrong, they were VERY CLOSELY matched (Neither a great team either).

I agree the Mavs are their toughest matchup, well sides LA (Utah this year was bad too), it's obvious LA is in everyones way right now and would win a series against either of us.

[z0sa]

Seems like every day the Spurs get more and more fucked :lol

My reaction to this trade.

We needed something like this more than the Mavs . . :bang

[Sean Cagney]

butthurt spurfan just being butthurt

Says a dude who has Mavdynasty as his name when they haven't won one damn title :lol:lol. That makes sense.

[TD 21]

You are absolutely insane if you think the Spurs match up well with the Mavs, pre or post trade. I know for a fact timvp--who obviously knows a lot more than you about basketball--would disagree with that sentiment. The Mavs are one of the toughest matchups in the whole league for the Spurs, especially considering the Mavs' relative ineffectiveness against several other teams.

The Spurs did match up well with the Mavs, particularly in a playoff series. Think about it, once Duncan inevitably got Dampier in foul trouble, the Mavs didn't have a single other player to throw at him that could even dream of guarding him straight up. This meant that they'd have had to either double and give up a barrage of open threes or play him straight up and live with him approximating what he did to them in the '06 series. With Haywood, that changes everything. Now the Mavs have two center-sized bigs to throw at him and likely won't have to double team him.

You don't even know me but you're going to tell me that timvp "obviously knows a lot more than me about basketball"? That's extremely ignorant. I guess because he has a million more posts than me that it automatically makes him more credible. I don't give a damn what timvp disagrees with. Unlike you and many on this board, I don't bow down to him just because he's a moderator. Have some self respect and stop sucking up to some random guy on a message board.

The Mavs used to be a tough match-up for the Spurs, back in '06. This year (at least pre-trade) ,it was the Spurs who were the deeper team, with far more fire power and they were still slightly better defensively. Nowitzki is the one guy the Spurs don't have a good match-up for, but other than that, the Mavs would have had to rely on the Spurs either being injured or flat out beating themselves in order to get past them.

[mystargtr34]

Brendan Haywood

Height w/o shoes - 6'11.75"
Height w/shoes - 7'1"
Wingspan - 7'5.5"
Standing reach - 9'5.5"

This dude is huge, and long.

[Brazil]

great this nightmare season continues

[TFloss32]

You are absolutely insane if you think the Spurs match up well with the Mavs, pre or post trade. I know for a fact timvp--who obviously knows a lot more than you about basketball--would disagree with that sentiment. The Mavs are one of the toughest matchups in the whole league for the Spurs, especially considering the Mavs' relative ineffectiveness against several other teams.

The Spurs matched up with the Mavs this season better than they have in years (that's evident in watching their matchups this season). The Mavs have just gotten older, slower and smaller. This trade is great for Dallas because they gave away a little and got a lot in return. Whether or not the Spurs still match up decently with the Mavericks is irrelevant because San Antonio is not a legitimate title contender. Not sure the Mavs are either...but this trade is an excellent step in the right direction because they finally have a legit post presence and add needed scoring that they've been missing with the absence of Josh Howard. I've always criticized Mark Cuban's ability to make quality personnel decisions, but this is a good one.

[timtonymanu]

This trade just put Dallas ahead of us even more.

RJ better step up his game if this team doesnt trade.

[alchemist]

Gasol-esque trade, Mavs went in with sandpaper and no lube.

[badfish22]

If I had to rank teams in the league, I'd go Spurs 7th, Mavs 8th. That gives you an indication of how close I have them and I will say it yet again: this trade gives the Mavs the chance to be legitimately better than the Spurs, but that being said, no, I never thought that before this trade the Mavs could beat a healthy Spurs team in a playoff series. Once Duncan inevitably got Dampier in foul trouble, the Mavs didn't have a single other player who could even pretend to defend him straight up and eventually they'd have had to resort to double teamms, which opens up the Spurs 3-point shooting. Having Haywood changes all that.

I'm not trying to bring you down, I know you're probably excited, as well you should be, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see this trade making the Mavs legit contenders. I could be wrong, but that's just the way I see it.

But why are the Mavs behind the Spurs if they have beaten them twice? You never answered that.
btw you are the only spurfan who seems to have this opinion in this thread. Must spurfans are rational.

[Big P]

But why are the Mavs behind the Spurs if they have beaten them twice? You never answered that.
btw you are the only spurfan who seems to have this opinion in this thread. Must spurfans are rational.

Because you have zero championships.

[mavsfan1000]

Because you have zero championships.
San Antonio hasn't won anything in a while. I'd say it's like being without a championship after this long of a period. LA is definitely the big favoirtes. Denver the second. They beat us and are quicker than us.

[timvp]

It's difficult for me to care about this trade too much. Prior to the trade, the Mavs would have been the favorite against the Spurs in the playoffs. The Mavs were built perfectly to exploit the Spurs' weaknesses -- specifically the lack of size and mobility next to Duncan.

Now? It's pretty much the same. Instead of having just Dampier to throw against Duncan, they have Dampier and Haywood ... which obviously isn't good news for the Spurs. Against most teams, Butler is an upgrade over Howard for the Mavs. However, against the Spurs, I'd say it's about a wash. The Spurs could never guard Howard because they didn't have the right type of athlete to put against him. On top of that, Howard played with the utmost of confidence against the Spurs. As it stands, Butler is the better player but I doubt he'd be too much of an improvement over how Howard routinely destroys San Antonio. Plus, what does this trade do to the minutes of Spur Killer Jason Terry? That's not too clear at this point.

I still give the edge to the Mavs in a series against the Spurs. I don't think their odds improved that much from pre-trade though. Thus, I won't lose any sleep over this trade. The Spurs have much bigger problems than a team that already would have beaten them moving around some talent.

In the big picture, however, this was a very good trade for the Mavs. Before the trade, they had no shot at a championship. After the trade, they are still huge underdogs but there is a chance. Caron Butler has never played with a legit ball distributing point guard before. Kidd could help him blossom and reach his full potential. Going from playing with point guards like Arenas and Chucky Atkins to Kidd can do nothing but help.

Haywood will also help, especially against the bigger and tougher frontlines. Motivation and effort has been a problem for Haywood at some points in his career but it being a contract year should make that a non-issue. Not to mention how he'll be going from the worst passing team in the NBA to one of the best.

The best part of this trade for the Mavs is that it doesn't hurt them long term. They have this year and next year to give it a go and then return to having flexibility. Usually in this type of salary dump, a team has to mortgage their future. In this deal, Cuban just basically bought a chance at a championship without busting his payroll structure.

The Lakers are still the huge favorite in the West. I'd say the Nuggets remain second. After the trade, the Mavs are a solid third. The Jazz might have like a 0.1% chance ... but I give no chance to the rest of the Western Conference as it stands.

[HarlemHeat37]

San Antonio hasn't won anything in a while. I'd say it's like being without a championship after this long of a period. LA is definitely the big favoirtes. Denver the second. They beat us and are quicker than us.

:rollin

[badfish22]

Because you have zero championships.

Oh, ok

[benefactor]

San Antonio hasn't won anything in a while. I'd say it's like being without a championship after this long of a period.
http://arsjerm.net/misc/roflCopter2.gif

[Sean Cagney]

San Antonio hasn't won anything in a while. I'd say it's like being without a championship after this long of a period. LA is definitely the big favoirtes. Denver the second. They beat us and are quicker than us.LOL a while? Well thats two years without one now if you count the playoffs! Just 07 hahahha. Good point there! Better than well, NEVER....... :lol

[Sean Cagney]

It's difficult for me to care about this trade too much. Prior to the trade, the Mavs would have been the favorite against the Spurs in the playoffs. The Mavs were built perfectly to exploit the Spurs' weaknesses -- specifically the lack of size and mobility next to Duncan.

Now? It's pretty much the same. Instead of having just Dampier to throw against Duncan, they have Dampier and Haywood ... which obviously isn't good news for the Spurs. Against most teams, Butler is an upgrade over Howard for the Mavs. However, against the Spurs, I'd say it's about a wash. The Spurs could never guard Howard because they didn't have the right type of athlete to put against him. On top of that, Howard played with the utmost of confidence against the Spurs. As it stands, Butler is the better player but I doubt he'd be too much of an improvement over how Howard routinely destroys San Antonio. Plus, what does this trade do to the minutes of Spur Killer Jason Terry? That's not too clear at this point.

I still give the edge to the Mavs in a series against the Spurs. I don't think their odds improved that much from pre-trade though. Thus, I won't lose any sleep over this trade. The Spurs have much bigger problems than a team that already would have beaten them moving around some talent.

In the big picture, however, this was a very good trade for the Mavs. Before the trade, they had no shot at a championship. After the trade, they are still huge underdogs but there is a chance. Caron Butler has never played with a legit ball distributing point guard before. Kidd could help him blossom and reach his full potential. Going from playing with point guards like Arenas and Chucky Atkins to Kidd can do nothing but help.

Haywood will also help, especially against the bigger and tougher frontlines. Motivation and effort has been a problem for Haywood at some points in his career but it being a contract year should make that a non-issue. Not to mention how he'll be going from the worst passing team in the NBA to one of the best.

The best part of this trade for the Mavs is that it doesn't hurt them long term. They have this year and next year to give it a go and then return to having flexibility. Usually in this type of salary dump, a team has to mortgage their future. In this deal, Cuban just basically bought a chance at a championship without busting his payroll structure.

The Lakers are still the huge favorite in the West. I'd say the Nuggets remain second. After the trade, the Mavs are a solid third. The Jazz might have like a 0.1% chance ... but I give no chance to the rest of the Western Conference as it stands.

Welp as you said it we are done now, or atleast this yea as it stands. No need to even watch anymore man :(:depressed. I never thought we would beat Denver or LA anyways, but Dallas I thought that would be a good series (Utah too if we got it together), but now we are first round exits? I mean Utah at 4 and us at 5? If we get 6th Dallas is waiting for us, so damn....... No tomorrow I guess, just another year wasted with Tim (I know 4 titles is not a waste but damn I wish we had atleast 5 by now with our best player ever).
:king
I want them to get all the rings they can with this team, after Timmay gets too old or Parker or Manu leaves it's a long drought, this is the last we got for a while admit it or not.

[duhoh]

i was hoping butler and haywood would be in rockets jerseys, but mavs?

that definitely makes them better

[FeZZy]

Do you think if the wizards don't express the option on Howard we sign him for like 7 or 8 mil and we finally get him?

[AFBlue]

Welp as you said it we are done now, or atleast this yea as it stands. No need to even watch anymore man :(:depressed. I never thought we would beat Denver or LA anyways, but Dallas I thought that would be a good series (Utah too if we got it together), but now we are first round exits? I mean Utah at 4 and us at 5? If we get 6th Dallas is waiting for us, so damn....... No tomorrow I guess, just another year wasted with Tim (I know 4 titles is not a waste but damn I wish we had atleast 5 by now with our best player ever).
:king
I want them to get all the rings they can with this team, after Timmay gets too old or Parker or Manu leaves it's a long drought, this is the last we got for a while admit it or not.

Jeebus man, back off the ledge.

The Spurs have remade themselves time and time again during the Duncan era, and as long as he's on this squad the Spurs have a chance.

Are they playing at a competitive level right now? No. Do they have it in them as currently constructed? Probably not. But is it time to call it quits and give up on your team? Never!

There is still time this year for the Spurs FO to make moves and/or for the Spurs' players to step up. And next year it's a whole new ball game. Spurs still have a chance to get #5 yet...

Believe.

[ShoogarBear]

It's difficult for me to care about this trade too much. Prior to the trade, the Mavs would have been the favorite against the Spurs in the playoffs.

You miss the bigger point. The trade makes it much less likely that somebody else would beat the Mavs before the Spurs would play them.

[timvp]

You miss the bigger point. The trade makes it much less likely that somebody else would beat the Mavs before the Spurs would play them.

You miss the even bigger point. Even if the Spurs are to somehow avoid the Mavs, they still have no chance in hell against the Lakers. This trade changes nothing in that regard.

[ShoogarBear]

You miss the even bigger point. Even if the Spurs are to somehow avoid the Mavs, they still have no chance in hell against the Lakers. This trade changes nothing in that regard.

??

Um, if the Mavs had traded Howard and Gooden for Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes, that wouldn't have changed.

[Supergirl]

Mavs must be convinced Howard is never gonna get better from his injuries to give him up. That could prove to be accurate, or it could turn out to make them look like chumps, time will tell.

Haywood is obviously an upgrade over any C they have, but that's a lot of pieces to try and integrate at this late point in the season and the Mavs give up a lot of players (read: depth) for one overrated SF (Butler) who will go from being the main scorer on a team to being the second banana on another.

Still, it's worth the gamble for the Mavs. But I'm not quaking in my boots as a Spurs fan, and no one else should be either.

[murpjf88]

You miss the even bigger point. Even if the Spurs are to somehow avoid the Mavs, they still have no chance in hell against the Lakers. This trade changes nothing in that regard.

you miss the bigger point. even if the spurs miss the Mavs, they have no chance against the Lakers, Jazz, Portland or Denver. You can't avoid them all.

[timvp]

??

Um, if the Mavs had traded Howard and Gooden for Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes, that wouldn't have changed.

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

[ffadicted]

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

One would have to think that it changes things in the trading aspect though. The spurs have to realize that sitting and waiting for Jefferson to become the 16, 6, 3, defensive player that we traded for isn't gonna cut it. You're right that it doesn't change much in the whole outlook of the playoffs, but maybe it's gonna act as a wake up call of sorts

[Rogue]

It's OK for Spurs to consider the grape acid but it's definitely not the right time for complaints IMHO, as the window is still open and the chances are still out there for Spurs to grab. Despite how much Spurs have been affected by their growing ages over the past several years, they still hold the main skeletons that supported their building from 2003 to 2007, in which period of time there includes 3 championship years.

[Rogue]

Duncan is still Duncan even at age 33; Manu has slumped a lot from the son of wind version of him into the bald header as he currently is, but he's still productive as a sixth man for the Spurs. Tony Longoria is right in prime and maturer than ever, and a healthy TL is still the guy to count on.

The only occupation that still stands vacant is the leader at defensive end, which used to be handled wonderfully by Bruce Bowen. Even without making any noise-generating moves the Spurs still have the chance to upgrade themselves by obtaining a defensive specialist to fill the only missing point. and a defense-orientated player generally doesn't cost as much as an attacker of equivalent caliber.

[ZB 512]

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

the division title is between the Mavs and Spurs

if the Spurs dont win the division, they will probably be a #6 or #7 seed

[TJastal]

It's difficult for me to care about this trade too much. Prior to the trade, the Mavs would have been the favorite against the Spurs in the playoffs. The Mavs were built perfectly to exploit the Spurs' weaknesses -- specifically the lack of size and mobility next to Duncan.

Now? It's pretty much the same. Instead of having just Dampier to throw against Duncan, they have Dampier and Haywood ... which obviously isn't good news for the Spurs. Against most teams, Butler is an upgrade over Howard for the Mavs. However, against the Spurs, I'd say it's about a wash. The Spurs could never guard Howard because they didn't have the right type of athlete to put against him. On top of that, Howard played with the utmost of confidence against the Spurs. As it stands, Butler is the better player but I doubt he'd be too much of an improvement over how Howard routinely destroys San Antonio. Plus, what does this trade do to the minutes of Spur Killer Jason Terry? That's not too clear at this point.

I still give the edge to the Mavs in a series against the Spurs. I don't think their odds improved that much from pre-trade though. Thus, I won't lose any sleep over this trade. The Spurs have much bigger problems than a team that already would have beaten them moving around some talent.

In the big picture, however, this was a very good trade for the Mavs. Before the trade, they had no shot at a championship. After the trade, they are still huge underdogs but there is a chance. Caron Butler has never played with a legit ball distributing point guard before. Kidd could help him blossom and reach his full potential. Going from playing with point guards like Arenas and Chucky Atkins to Kidd can do nothing but help.

Haywood will also help, especially against the bigger and tougher frontlines. Motivation and effort has been a problem for Haywood at some points in his career but it being a contract year should make that a non-issue. Not to mention how he'll be going from the worst passing team in the NBA to one of the best.

The best part of this trade for the Mavs is that it doesn't hurt them long term. They have this year and next year to give it a go and then return to having flexibility. Usually in this type of salary dump, a team has to mortgage their future. In this deal, Cuban just basically bought a chance at a championship without busting his payroll structure.

The Lakers are still the huge favorite in the West. I'd say the Nuggets remain second. After the trade, the Mavs are a solid third. The Jazz might have like a 0.1% chance ... but I give no chance to the rest of the Western Conference as it stands.

[TJastal]

Err.. meant to reply to your thread Timvp.. but I can't do an edits anymore, I guess I'm in the spurstalk doghouse. :lol

Just thought I'd chime in about Howard. That guy does nothing but kill us, I'm so glad he's outta Dallas. For some weird reason this guy always feasts on the spurs and the referees treat him like the second coming on Jordan when he plays S.A. I'm not scared of Butler as much.

Gooden is another I'm actually glad is gone. The guy played like a crazed fiend against us earlier this year. I think he pulled down like 8-10 offensive rebounds. I'm actually glad they got rid of him too. Haywood is just a younger version of Dampier (who ironically is another guy who murdered us earlier this year). So hopefully Haywood takes a big chunk of Damp's PT away.

[mavsfan1000]

LOL a while? Well thats two years without one now if you count the playoffs! Just 07 hahahha. Good point there! Better than well, NEVER....... :lol
Considering they won't win one in a long time, it is a good point. They took advantage of their opportunities and now time for mediocrity unless a major deal comes.

[venitian navigator]

Now that they are in Washington, all these players (Ross, Gooden, Singleton, Howard) could be traded to us...

If Washington just want to clear space and pay less, I wouldn't mind have back Gooden for, saying, RMJ, and then give Ratliff for Singleton...we need younger bodyes, Gooden was playing o.k. this year and Singleton is really athletic...and shoot the three.

[timvp]

Gooden? That was a failed experiment.

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

[AFBlue]

Now that they are in Washington, all these players (Ross, Gooden, Singleton, Howard) could be traded to us...

If Washington just want to clear space and pay less, I wouldn't mind have back Gooden for, saying, RMJ, and then give Ratliff for Singleton...we need younger bodyes, Gooden was playing o.k. this year and Singleton is really athletic...and shoot the three.

Isn't there a time limit for traded players to be flipped again? I don't know the rules specifically, but I'm pretty sure the guys who just got traded would have to be waived and signed to come to the Spurs.

Am I wrong?

[timvp]

Isn't there a time limit for traded players to be flipped again? I don't know the rules specifically, but I'm pretty sure the guys who just got traded would have to be waived and signed to come to the Spurs.

Am I wrong?

A player that was recently traded can be traded again, however they can't be combined with other players. They can only be traded by themselves.

[weebo]

Gooden? That was a failed experiment.

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

Can a player be traded twice in one week?

[Mel_13]

Can a player be traded twice in one week?

yes

[Mark in Austin]

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

I guess it depends on if the Wiz see Howard as pure cap relief or if they see a potential Wizard beyond this year. What you proposed would knock another million off Washington's salary cap number. It seems like a good risk given how high some in the organization were on Howard. (no pun intended) I wonder if Pop called AJ for a review of Howard what he would say?

But come on... Pop trading Finley? And Holt authorizing another 2 million in expenditures?

What are the odds of both of those things happening for a 50-50 shot player?

I guess better than Manu, Jefferson, and Hill to Philly for Igoudala and Dalembert...

or this one plus the rights to Splitter (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ygdhjap)

[ohmwrecker]

How the hell does Brendon Haywood warrant so much hype? Does anyone remember what a huge bust this guy was considered to be? He was Darko before Darko. He was Kwame Brown bad. Sure, he has improved marginally, but he has to be hitting the ceiling of his potential. You don't suck for 5 years and just turn into a monster. It doesn't happen. This guy is just going to cut into Erica's time and yield the same results.
I'm not sweating the Mavs any more or less because of this trade.

[Obstructed_View]

This move might have cost the Spurs a shot at the division, as the Mavs will likely get a bump from the enthusiasm and excitement of all the new scenery. It won't last. Butler's likely an upgrade from Josh Howard against everyone else, but not Josh Howard against San Antonio. Having another big is nice for them, but it might just be enough to convince Popovich that he needs to get his bigs dusted off and into the rotation, and that helps the Spurs in the long run.

If Pop's going to be running his small lineups with Fin and RJ at the 4, the Spurs won't get out of the first round pretty much no matter who they face, should they find themselves unlucky enough to qualify for the playoffs.

[Johnny RIngo]

Good move for the Mavs. I don't see this trade putting them on par with the Lakers but it's a step in the right direction.

Spurs FO will more than likely do nothing thanks to Holt's cheapness. Not gonna be pretty watching Pop turn us into a lottery team with his smallball bullshit.

[Obstructed_View]

Good move for the Mavs. I don't see this trade putting them on par with the Lakers but it's a step in the right direction.

Spurs FO will more than likely do nothing thanks to Holt's cheapness. Not gonna be pretty watching Pop turn us into a lottery team with his smallball bullshit.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[badfish22]

Err.. meant to reply to your thread Timvp.. but I can't do an edits anymore, I guess I'm in the spurstalk doghouse. :lol

Just thought I'd chime in about Howard. That guy does nothing but kill us, I'm so glad he's outta Dallas. For some weird reason this guy always feasts on the spurs and the referees treat him like the second coming on Jordan when he plays S.A. I'm not scared of Butler as much.

Gooden is another I'm actually glad is gone. The guy played like a crazed fiend against us earlier this year. I think he pulled down like 8-10 offensive rebounds. I'm actually glad they got rid of him too. Haywood is just a younger version of Dampier (who ironically is another guy who murdered us earlier this year). So hopefully Haywood takes a big chunk of Damp's PT away.


I think you should just say that the Mavs rape the Spurs

[ffadicted]

I don't know what the fuck you guys are talking about, in this season, this is what josh howard has done against the spurs:

10 PPG
27.8% from the field (!!)
1 assist and 4.5 rebounds

Certainly a small sample size, but clearly this isn't the Josh that we're used to anymore, the guy is having a shit season. The upgrade is clear now stop making up reasons to help us sleep at night lol

[spurtech09]

dallas mavs have alot of talent now.....there going to be even better but the dallas mavs still won't win a championship......

[HarlemHeat37]

How the hell does Brendon Haywood warrant so much hype? Does anyone remember what a huge bust this guy was considered to be? He was Darko before Darko. He was Kwame Brown bad. Sure, he has improved marginally, but he has to be hitting the ceiling of his potential. You don't suck for 5 years and just turn into a monster. It doesn't happen. This guy is just going to cut into Erica's time and yield the same results.
I'm not sweating the Mavs any more or less because of this trade.

I already knew you were an idiot, but seriously?!..:rollin:rollin:rollin

Haywood was the 20th pick in the draft, in what world is he considered a bust?..I've NEVER heard anybody call him a bust, let alone putting him near the same category as a Darko or Kwame..seriously, you're going to compare him to guys like that? LOL..

He had a breakout year 2 years ago and was on the way up, he was only held back by his coach having so much love for Etan Thomas(similar to Pop's love for numerous players on our team) which led to multiple altercations between the 2..he was then held back by a major injury last year that forced him to miss most of the year..Haywood has been considered a great 1 on 1 post defender for years now, this is common knowledge..this season he has finally gotten the bulk of playing time and he has clearly responded..

Seriously though, a bust?!..the 20th pick that has been solid for them?!..you're the same guy that thinks Antawn Jamison isn't a bad defender, so it isn't THAT surprising, but damn..

[TD 21]

But why are the Mavs behind the Spurs if they have beaten them twice? You never answered that.
btw you are the only spurfan who seems to have this opinion in this thread. Must spurfans are rational.

Who gives a shit? This is what I'm talking about with you obviously being a novice fan. In '07, the Cavs beat the Spurs 2-0 in the season series; what happened in the Finals? Last year, the Magic did the same to the Lakers; what happened in the Finals? This year, the Cavs did the same to the Lakers; should the two make the Finals, who will be the favorites?

I'm very rational and like I told you before, I don't give a shit who has the same opinion as me or not. Unlike you and many, it's not about going along with what's popular for me. I know the game and I've already explained why I didn't like the Mavs chances against the Spurs in a playoff series (pre-trade). Most Spurs fans get carried away with Nowitzki and treat him like a top five player because he's destroyed the undersized, unathletic cadre of wings the Spurs have thrown at him for years.

[remingtonbo2001]

I doubt the Spurs will make a trade. The Mavericks made a very good trade, or at least it appears so.

It appeared the Spurs made an amazing trade when we aquired Jefferson. Only time will tell if this trade benefits the Mavericks.

[temujin]

Did the trade involve any guns being transferred from the Wizards to the Mavs lockerrooms?

[dude1394]

The trade makes Dallas better than the Spurs which they probably already were. They maybe are equal to Denver. They still are not better than LA. So, if winning the division title was the goal for Dallas, then I would say they have accomplished their mission.

Now, for San Antonio. We do not need to make a trade to keep up with Dallas. We only need to make a trade if there is something that can put us on par with LA. Otherwise, we are off target and it would just be an act in futility.

If you are waiting for a deal that puts you over the lakers you might as well just pack it up and go home. You are not going to find one. IMO the best you can do is to try and be as competitive as you can and then lace 'em up.

[JustinJDW]

Hmm, lets hope they have chemistry issues, like we did. Caron Butler needs the ball to be effective, so lets hope that fucks up with Dirk's, Marion's and Terry's touches.

I am happy they traded Josh Howard though. He is the Spurs Killer.

[EricB]

I think this IMO is just reshuffling of the deck chairs against the lakers. Better against Denver, worse against the spurs..

[crc21209]

I think this IMO is just reshuffling of the deck chairs against the lakers. Better against Denver, worse against the spurs..

:tu. Josh Howard was a monster against the Spurs, and now he is gone...

[badfish22]

:tu. Josh Howard was a monster against the Spurs, and now he is gone...


I don't know what the fuck you guys are talking about, in this season, this is what josh howard has done against the spurs:

10 PPG
27.8% from the field (!!)
1 assist and 4.5 rebounds

Certainly a small sample size, but clearly this isn't the Josh that we're used to anymore, the guy is having a shit season. The upgrade is clear now stop making up reasons to help us sleep at night lol

[crc21209]

Those games really dont matter...when it always came down to it, when the games mattered...Howard would always torch the Spurs.

[024]

Gooden? That was a failed experiment.

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.
at this point, spurs have nothing to lose. like a lot of people, i've always felt that the spurs made the mistake by not drafting howard, especially after rumors that duncan wanted the spurs to draft him. if he was on the spurs, they could have molded his all star talent into a great two way player. he has to ability to defend and has sufficient offense to be a legitimate #2 or #3 scoring option. it may be too late now to change his ways but i think that howard could have been a better player on the spurs under the influence of popovich and duncan. at least, he would limit his dumbass actions in public.

[SpurNation]

RJ's salary and lack of expected play has put the Spurs in a quandry for this season.

And that's the pitiful shame of this all.

A Duncan led Spurs era is close to ending and the team has been snake bit when it comes to help ensure another championship before he retires or simply can't perform at a high enough level to help the team win another.

All the while if this management team has had a flaw in it's ability...it's been the inability to land a difference maker via trade.