You top 5 biggest wastes of talent

[monosylab1k]

who has taken the God given talent they have and done the absolute least with it?

1. Tyrus Thomas (mediocre bench player with superstar athleticism)

2. Gerald Green (T-Mac ability with zero brain, starting NBA player talent and isn't even in the league right now)

3. Mike Conley (should be Tony Parker 2.0 by now)

4. Marvin Williams (nothing more than a decent player, has All-Star level skills & tremendous athletic ability)

5. Michael Beasley (Kevin Durant minus a brain)

[monosylab1k]

this is currently, not of all time.

[ClippersDynasty]

You forgot Anthony Randolph.

[RedsLakers24]

Lamar Odom

[ClippersDynasty]

Lamar Odom

Cliche thing to say. Lamar does so fucking much for the Lakers. He obviously never turned into Lebron or something but he's really good.

[djohn2oo8]

Dick Jefferson

[Chieflion]

Dick Jefferson
He did pretty well for his career, don't let his tenure with the Spurs fool you.

Baron Davis.

[djohn2oo8]

I can't believe Kwame Brown hasn't been mentioned

[monosylab1k]

You forgot Anthony Randolph.

Anthony Randolph isn't wasting his talent, Don Nelson is.

[Xylus]

1. Boris Diaw - Biggest waste of talent I've ever seen in my life. Could have been one of the most complete players in the league, but chose instead to be a lazy, fat loser.

[mavs>spurs2]

our very own tim mothafuckin thomas was held in such high regards back in the day to get a huge extension with the bucks, then he promptly not only never filled his shoes but regressed

[IronMexican]

Tyson Chandler sons.

[baseline bum]

Six months ago this honor would be called the Zach Randolph Award, so you never know, but I'll go with Mr. You Know You Want to Touch It Dave

http://www.fashion-res.com/EX/10-08-10/_Eddy%2520Curry.JPG

[Findog]

Josh Howard has to be mentioned. Amare Stoudemire as well. Stoudemire should be a top 10 player instead of the 2nd Banana Robin type that he is.

[me15lo]

I can't believe Kwame Brown hasn't been mentioned

that guy has no talent to begin with.

- earl smith

[Findog]

Shaq for his career has to be mentioned. With his size, skill and talent, he should've been the best player of all time. Three titles as a #1 guy and one as a #2 guy is pretty substantial underachieving.

[poop]

gilbert arenas, incredible scoring ability up there with anyone in the nba, yet has the BBIQ and real life IQ of a chimpanzee whose been struck in the head with a baseball bat multiple times

[Juanobili]

JJ Redick can sure shoot



...and that's about it?

[poop]

Shaq for his career has to be mentioned. With his size, skill and talent, he should've been the best player of all time. Three titles as a #1 guy and one as a #2 guy is pretty substantial underachieving.

yes this is true, he is the single biggest freak/physical anomaly probably in league history... he got the numbers he has on his sheer size and physical ability alone, if he were able to develop some actual basketball skills (shooting the ball, free throws) even to the level of a high school player he would be the all-time scoring leader already and would have several more titles as well.

[Findog]

JJ Redick can sure shoot



...and that's about it?

I'm pretty sure Reddick being in the NBA and getting rotation minutes for a 50+ win team is overachieving, since he has a D-League game.

[Juanobili]

I'm pretty sure Reddick being in the NBA and getting rotation minutes for a 50+ win team is overachieving, since he has a D-League game.

yeah true

[Findog]

yes this is true, he is the single biggest freak/physical anomaly probably in league history... he got the numbers he has on his sheer size and physical ability alone, if he were able to develop some actual basketball skills (shooting the ball, free throws) even to the level of a high school player he would be the all-time scoring leader already and would have several more titles as well.

A guy like Jason Kidd is still pretty good because of his fundamentals and skills, even though his athleticism has declined. Shaq is still a pretty good player, but he never developed the post game that would still make him an elite player. Now he's just old, slow and fat. He just relied on his strength, size and incredible quickness for a guy of his size, and now that's mostly gone.

[dirk4mvp]

Is Stromile Swift even still in the league?

The muthafuckin Stro Show.

W0UT_hzNq_M

HAwbTfPOgOA

[dirk4mvp]

JJ Redick can sure shoot



...and that's about it?

Like a lot of players, he's found a niche in the NBA by doing one thing extremely well.

[Xylus]

Josh Howard has to be mentioned. Amare Stoudemire as well. Stoudemire should be a top 10 player instead of the 2nd Banana Robin type that he is.

Amare Stoudemire Career Stats:

21.1 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 54.2% FG

Amare Stoudemire Playoff Stats:

25.1 PPG, 10.4 RPG, 1.9 BPG, 52.4% FG
36 Playoff games, 22 of which were played against Tim Duncan, arguably the greatest defensive big man of his generation.


Stoudemire has the potential to be a better player than he is during the regular season, but I think he plays at his peak during the playoffs. To say that he's a complete waste of talent is idiotic, and borderline insane.

[Findog]

Amare Stoudemire Career Stats:

21.1 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 54.2% FG

Amare Stoudemire Playoff Stats:

25.1 PPG, 10.4 RPG, 1.9 BPG, 52.4% FG
36 Playoff games, 22 of which were played against Tim Duncan, arguably the greatest defensive big man of his generation.


Stoudemire has the potential to be a better player than he is during the regular season, but I think he plays at his peak during the playoffs. To say that he's a complete waste of talent is idiotic, and borderline insane.

Where did I say he was a complete waste of talent? How is saying that he should be a franchise player instead of a 2nd banana type calling him a complete waste of talent? I think he's maximized about 70% of his skill set. As for his playoff stats, he had one good run in 05. The SSOL Suns as a team only have one impressive series win in this era - beating Dallas that year.

[Xylus]

Where did I say he was a complete waste of talent? How is saying that he should be a franchise player instead of a 2nd banana type calling him a complete waste of talent? I think he's maximized about 70% of his skill set. As for his playoff stats, he had one good run in 05. The SSOL Suns as a team only have one impressive series win in this era - beating Dallas that year.

You're posting in a topic asking for your Top 5 Biggest Wastes of Talent, and said that Amare Stoudemire should be in the discussion.

The Suns were at their best in '07, but never had the right tools to get past the San Antonio Spurs. I'd argue that it was more D'Antoni's fault than Amare's.

[Xylus]

Though I'll admit--leaving the bench was a really, really, really dumb thing to do.

[Findog]

You're posting in a topic asking for your Top 5 Biggest Wastes of Talent, and said that Amare Stoudemire should be in the discussion.


Well, I'm sorry if I didn't stipulate that I don't think he's one of the FIVE biggest wastes of talent. I figured the usual suspects would be named by everybody, and after that we could get down to peripheral matters.

[Xylus]

Well, I'm sorry if I didn't stipulate that I don't think he's one of the FIVE biggest wastes of talent. I figured the usual suspects would be named by everybody, and after that we could get down to peripheral matters.

Amare shouldn't be anywhere near this discussion. I've provided concrete stats showing that he raises his game to another level in the postseason, putting up numbers that are very comparable to those of Dirk Nowitzki, former MVP. In 2005, he was nigh unstoppable, putting up 37 ppg and 14 rpg in 5 games on the Spurs in the WCF. His ceiling was lowered significantly by microfracture surgery, which he's successfully recovered from due to a great work ethic.

Dumb argument, Fin. Your constant Amare bashing is wearing thin.

[Findog]

Amare shouldn't be anywhere near this discussion. I've provided concrete stats showing that he raises his game to another level in the postseason, putting up numbers that are very comparable to those of Dirk Nowitzki, former MVP. In 2005, he was nigh unstoppable, putting up 37 ppg and 14 rpg in 5 games on the Spurs in the WCF. His ceiling was lowered significantly by microfracture surgery, which he's successfully recovered from due to a great work ethic.

Dumb argument, Fin. Your constant Amare bashing is wearing thin.

He's a chronic career underachiever and he absolutely deserves to be labeled as such. If you object to the term "waste of talent," fine, he's nowhere near the likes of Gerald Green or J.R. Rider. But to compare him to Dirk - his impact on a game isn't nearly the same as Dirk's, no matter what stats say. Fifty years from now people will look at the stats of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan and conclude they were about equal, and that would be wrong - Duncan ascended to a level Garnett never reached.

And I'd like to see Amare put up those video game stats in the playoffs without Mike D'Antoni as his coach. For God's sakes, David Lee is a 20/10 guy under D'Antoni.

[ShoogarBear]

Beno Udrih.

[j.dizzle]

Brian Scalabrine..I thought he was gonna be the next Larry Bird

[ElNono]

Drew Gooden?

[tlongII]

J.R. Rider

[mavs>spurs2]

What people seem to forget about Amare Stoudemire is how much microfracture surgery has affected him. Because he's still a such a great player people tend to forget how great he actually was before. His game was totally dependent on athleticism and microfracture robbed him of some of that. Even with a more polished jumpshot and overall game, he's still less of a player than the younger, rawer Stoudemire once was. When I look at Amare Stoudemire today, I think of an all star, not the young BEAST who once scored 37 ppg in a playoff series against Tim Duncan.

[Cane]

This season:

1. Gilbert Arenas - Yea.
2. Tracy McGrady - Despite making the money that he does and being healthy he got himself in a FUBAR situation with his own team.
3. Josh Howard - Had to do a double take when I saw his statsheet. Great move to trade him. :toast
4. Allen Iverson - With the right attitude and a shift to a roleplayer mentality he could've had a much better impact.
5. Potential foreign stars that stay overseas ;)

[timvp]

PG Baron Davis - Couldv'e been an absolute monster if he stayed in shape and didn't just hoist threes.

SG JR Smith - Sick range. Sick athlete. Mentally sick human.

SF Vince Carter - Freakish athlete with a great stroke ... and he's done barely anything with those skills.

PF Rasheed Wallace - Could have been Tim Duncan with a better jumper.

C Eddy Curry - Never has there been such a blatant lack of heart ... no pun intended.

[mardigan]

As far as a waste of talent from a laziness standpoint, Telfair was another guy who just never seemed to want to get better. He seems fine with just floating from team to team collecting his paychecks, when coming out he obviously had a lot of talent, but just never has improved on it.

Marbury is up there too.

[jacobdrj]

Josh Howard has to be mentioned. Amare Stoudemire as well. Stoudemire should be a top 10 player instead of the 2nd Banana Robin type that he is.

Beat me to it...
Took the words right out of my mouth...

[21_Blessings]

Shaq - Could have seriously been the GOAT with the right attitude/work ethic/defensive effort and free throws

Lamar Odom - Talent to be a Pippen-Magic hybrid. :hat :hat

Tim Thomas - Fuck this guy

Mcgrady/Carter - Both have the loser and underachiever gene I guess

[Allanon]

JR Smith...dude has superstar talent but no brain.

[hsxvvd]

I did think Amare, but also agree with the arguements posted earlier. He has achieved reasonable stats, but when he was ripping the Spurs for 40 a game in the playoffs quite a few years back, he was SCARY!

Since though, his game has gone backwards... it's a bit sad to reach your peak in what? 3 years and then decline.

I'd also put KG in this category too... if your looking at a "waste of talent" against team success. 1 championship in his career is underachieving no matter how bad the front office mistakes in Minnesota.

Another mention deserves to go to Michael Redd. Yes injuries played a big part, but can you imagine what might have happened if he has just made the switch to Cleveland a few years back.

[poop]

PG Baron Davis - Couldv'e been an absolute monster if he stayed in shape and didn't just hoist threes.

SG JR Smith - Sick range. Sick athlete. Mentally sick human.

SF Vince Carter - Freakish athlete with a great stroke ... and he's done barely anything with those skills.

PF Rasheed Wallace - Could have been Tim Duncan with a better jumper.

C Eddy Curry - Never has there been such a blatant lack of heart ... no pun intended.

hhahahah lol

[Muser]

Agree with 21_Blessing, he showed last year in Phoenix he could still dominate the game if he was in shape.

[Bukefal]

Is Stromile Swift even still in the league?

The muthafuckin Stro Show.


He's in China.

[gaKNOW!blee]

Before this year, Josh Smith.

But still, Amare should be embarrassed that he doesn't average 20-10. Thats how good he should be.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Tyson Chandler - should be way more than the defensive role player he is, could have been a bigger KG

Rasheed Wallace - Barkley is onto something when he says Sheed is the most talented player in the NBA. Maybe that's an exaggeration but Sheed could have been as good as any big man during this era.

Shaun Livingston - Never really seemed to care about being good. Never added the weight he needed to ass, never added the jumper he needed to add, and ultimately blew out his kneee largely cause his lower body strength was so bad.

Greg Oden - another guy who doesn't seem to care about getting good, and another guy who's lack of lower body condition contributed to his knee injuries.

Boris Diaw - Xylus already mentioned him but he's easily one of if not the biggest talent wastes. Some players like Ty Thomas just have a low bball IQ they can't do anything about, Diaw has an extremely high basketball IQ to go along with his physical talents, but he was a fat pussy who stopped giving a shit once he signed his $40 million extension. He's a waste of talent in every sense of the word, he knows full well how good he can be and simply doesn't give a shit.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But still, Amare should be embarrassed that he doesn't average 20-10. Thats how good he should be.


Instead he averages 20 and 9. What a waste. He could easily average 10 rebounds instead he averages a measly 9.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Seriously though, how good is Amare supposed to be? There's nothing he can do about how dumb he is, and microfracture surgery took away that once in a generation athleticism he had. His lack of basketball IQ combined with his naturally thin frame prevent him from ever being a dominat low post player or dominant rebounder. Idk why people seem to think Amare could be Hakeem Olajwuon circa 1994.

[gaKNOW!blee]

Instead he averages 20 and 9. What a waste. He could easily average 10 rebounds instead he averages a measly 9.

I shouldn't have said 10....

but with his athletisism and body...don't you think he should seriously be around 11 or 12 a game??

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I shouldn't have said 10....

but with his athletisism and body...don't you think he should seriously be around 11 or 12 a game??


For various reasons I don't. More than anything though, I think it's ridiculous that people think there's some monumental difference between 9 rebounds and 11-12 rebounds. Maybe if Grant Hill and Steve Nash forced some missed shots here and there Amare would have the opportunity to grab 11-12 rebounds.

[timvp]

I can't agree that Amare is a waste of talent. He's basically a great athlete who has added elements to his game. He's now a very good jump shooter and has some finesse moves around the rim.

Amare has always been more athletic than talent. Someone like Rasheed is talented. I don't think Amare could have produced much more in his career than he has to this point. From all accounts, he's a hard worker who spends tons of time in the gym. His weaknesses are almost all attributable to just not being the brightest bulb.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's also hard to call Amare a waste of talent when he's come back from microfracture surgery better than any other big man I can think of. He's also never had a coach who demanded good defense from him or had patience with letting him develop as a post player. The guy to blame for him being someone who needs pick and rolls to score and sucks on defense isn't Amare, it's Antoni.

[gaKNOW!blee]

For various reasons I don't. More than anything though, I think it's ridiculous that people think there's some monumental difference between 9 rebounds and 11-12 rebounds. Maybe if Grant Hill and Steve Nash forced some missed shots here and there Amare would have the opportunity to grab 11-12 rebounds.

I agree with the last statement.

But IMO there is a monumental difference between 9 rebounds a game, and 12. Thats 246 rebounds a year man.

All that being said, I still think Amare is a very good player. He's had a very nice career so far and he's not a "bust" by any means. My only thing with him, and it always has been, is I think he should be a little bit better of a rebounder....thats all.

[Findog]

Seriously though, how good is Amare supposed to be? There's nothing he can do about how dumb he is, and microfracture surgery took away that once in a generation athleticism he had. His lack of basketball IQ combined with his naturally thin frame prevent him from ever being a dominat low post player or dominant rebounder. Idk why people seem to think Amare could be Hakeem Olajwuon circa 1994.

Every year in training camp he talks about how he needs to get better on defense to improve his game, and that's not some coached answer. It's true he's not the sharpest penis in the vagina, but he's cognizant enough to know that defense is half the game and he doesn't play any. And yet he doesn't do anything about it. And while it's also true that he spends a lot of time in the gym honing his offensive craft, it's a form of laziness to not devote some of that time to work on his d. Even Dirk has overcome his limitations to become an adequate defender. Amare can't do anything about his lack of basketball IQ, but he does suffer from mental laziness.

Carmelo Anthony is an example to me of a guy who became a complete player because of dedication to his craft, after being a one-dimensional guy who only cared about scoring, and he's not exactly a Rhodes Scholar himself. What's Amare's excuse?

[Cane]

If Amar'e is an underachiever and has questionable IQ then Dwight Howard probably deserves a nod as well. He gets into foul trouble often, is second in the league in technicals and personal fouls per game (Amar'e is third for the latter), and has about one of the worst offensive games for a players thats arguably the best big in the league.

Howard has been trying to add some moves and a bank shot but just imagine if he went through untimely injuries like Amar'e has! :wow

[Findog]

If Amar'e is an underachiever and has questionable IQ then Dwight Howard probably deserves a nod as well. He gets into foul trouble often, is second in the league in technicals and personal fouls per game (Amar'e is third for the latter), and has about one of the worst offensive games for a players thats arguably the best big in the league.

Howard has been trying to add some moves and a bank shot but just imagine if he went through untimely injuries like Amar'e has!

I agree. Howard has been a minor waste of talent up to this point. He could be the best player in the game, ahead of even Lebron, if he could learn a few post moves other than that crappy running jump hook.

[Blake]

Marbury is up there too.

my vote for a top 5 waste

[monosylab1k]

Even Dirk has overcome his limitations to become an adequate defender.

True, but hasn't Dirk also given us the standard boilerplate about adding some post moves to his game? And it never happens. Year after year Dirk tells everyone how he's working on some post moves but then the season starts and we see nothing. And the team brings in Kevin McHale, and everyone raves about how Dirk will have some post moves, and then it never happens.

At some point you just say a player is what he is. Dirk is never going to be able to play in the post, because that's not who he is as a player. It doesn't mean he's wasting his talent, he's just a terrible post player.

I don't think Amare is wasting his talent because he doesn't play defense, I think at this point you just have to say he is what he is. A shitty defender.

[Findog]

True, but hasn't Dirk also given us the standard boilerplate about adding some post moves to his game? And it never happens. .

What do you mean he's never developed post moves? I've seen him go into the post and seal a guy with a drop-step. He's not a good post player, but that's not for lack of trying. If you play him there for 48 minutes a game, he's not going to turn into Hakeem Olajuwon all of a sudden. Tim Duncan has a reliable mid-range jumper but you don't want him shooting that all game long. I mean, what is your complaint? That he doesn't go into the post enough? That would lead to a drop-off in scoring efficiency.

[lebomb]

Len Bias.................. dude might have been as good as MJ. :depressed

[JamStone]

For me, I'd go with several that have been mentioned already:

1. Baron Davis - someone brought him up already, but he is arguably the most naturally talented point guard in the league. If he could have gotten his weight down consistently to around 210-215, I think he doesn't have the back problems he's had. And, if he worked as hard on his game as he does with his Hollywood celebrity, he'd be owning the league.

2. Eddy Curry - probably one of the most gifted post scorers in the league. Not all of it is on him since you could point out to his heart condition probably holding him back some, but that's not the only or even main reason he's wasted his talent.

3. Larry Hughes - out of St. Louis, I thought he had all the makings of being a star player in the league. He has similar natural talents as some of the really great shooting guards in the league. He even showed flashes of being a really, really, really good player in the league. He still had enough years left in the league after he broke out with Washington. I don't know what happened to him in Cleveland for his game to completely regress to the point of virtual non-existence.

4. Darko Milicic - maybe he's just an afterthought at this point. But, his combination of size, strength, and athleticism at the very least should have allowed him to be similar to Tyson Chandler or even Brendan Haywood. And he's not even close to those guys, let alone really reaching his potential. It's not that he's not talented. There is/was something much deeper going on than his talent. Rumors in Detroit was that he was a huge partier, got wasted and snorted. It's not all his fault. I think Dumars and Larry Brown hurt the kid mentally just as much as Darko hurt himself. He lost confidence and motivation to even work on his game. He's a huge joke. But, give his height, his size, his length, his athleticism to any number of guys in the NBA, and he could have even possibly been a KG type player or a Dwight Howard type player. His physical attributes are there. Something is really fucked up in between the ears. What a waste.

5. Tim Thomas - also already mentioned, but this guy could have done wayyyyyyyy more with his career. Athletic 6'10 and 235 with guard skills? At the very least, he should have had a comparable career as Lamar Odom. At best, with his skill package and natural talent, he could have dominated the small forward position similar to say Carmelo Anthony. I remember looking at Milwaukee when they had Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Tim Thomas and thinking that as soon as Tim Thomas put it all together, that team would be really, really scary. Yeahhh, well guess not.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Darko was never good or that talented to begin with. He was just overly hyped by the media which led to one of the biggest draft blunders of all time and that's not really his fault.

Dumars and Chad Ford are just dumb and much more to blame than Darko.

[JamStone]

It wasn't really the media. It was basically every single NBA scout and GM that felt he had the natural talents and skill set to be regarded so highly. Now, that's not to say scouts and GMs aren't wrong sometimes. They certainly are. But, even if they were wrong about his skillset, his size, strength, athleticism combination are "natural gifts and talents" that were still wasted by a kid who didn't work hard enough and had very little mental toughness.

So I would disagree with your contention. But, hey it's your opinion.

[23LeBronJames23]

I think Mo Williams. Do you guys agree?

[dirk4mvp]

I think Mo Williams. Do you guys agree?

What? He's a less talented, more shit talking version of JET.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

It wasn't really the media. It was basically every single NBA scout and GM that felt he had the natural talents and skill set to be regarded so highly.

No it wasn't 'every single scout/gm' That's just your misguided opinion to help you sleep at night. Just because your favorite team blundered a draft pick doesn't mean every other team would have. You have no proof otherwise.


Now, that's not to say scouts and GMs aren't wrong sometimes. They certainly are. But, even if they were wrong about his skillset, his size, strength, athleticism combination are "natural gifts and talents" that were still wasted by a kid who didn't work hard enough and had very little mental toughness.

Carmelo had superior NBA talents and that was made clear by his performance in College. Darko was a high risk project that should have went around 8-15 like most white big man projects (that usually end up busting in the NBA).


So I would disagree with your contention. But, hey it's your opinion.

My opinion hasn't changed on the matter though. Melo was clearly the better basketball player with superior natural gifts in my eyes when Darko was stupidly drafted before him.

But hey, it's your opinion.

[JamStone]

No it wasn't 'every single scout/gm' That's just your misguided opinion to help you sleep at night. Just because your favorite team blundered a draft pick doesn't mean every other team would have. You have no proof otherwise.



Carmelo had superior NBA talents and that was made clear by his performance in College. Darko was a high risk project that should have went around 8-15 like most white big man projects (that usually end up busting in the NBA).



My opinion hasn't changed on the matter though. Melo was clearly the better basketball player with superior natural gifts in my eyes when Darko was stupidly drafted before him.

But hey, it's your opinion.

I don't have a problem admitting Dumars and the Pistons fucked up with drafting Darko. They did. It's very clear right now they should have selected Carmelo.

But, that doesn't support your opinion that it was just media hype. Even if you want to argue there were GMs that would have selected Carmelo over Darko, which there were some, every NBA GM and scout, EVERY SINGLE one of them had Darko at the very least in the top 3, still above Dwyane Wade, still above Chris Bosh. Now even if I concede that 50% (which is a stretch) of NBA GMs would have taken Melo over Darko, that same 50% would have taken Darko with the third pick. And they would have been wrong. But, he was still that highly regarded.

It was not just media hype as you stated.

[baseline bum]

It wasn't really the media. It was basically every single NBA scout and GM that felt he had the natural talents and skill set to be regarded so highly. Now, that's not to say scouts and GMs aren't wrong sometimes. They certainly are. But, even if they were wrong about his skillset, his size, strength, athleticism combination are "natural gifts and talents" that were still wasted by a kid who didn't work hard enough and had very little mental toughness.

So I would disagree with your contention. But, hey it's your opinion.

You can't really believe what you hear from scouts and GMs at draft time though.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

But, that doesn't support your opinion that it was just media hype.

Actually it does. Because 'every gm/scout' did not watch Darko play much basketball. Most fans never heard of him or even seen him. His hype was greater than Yi, by far.


vEven if you want to argue there were GMs that would have selected Carmelo over Darko, which there were some, every NBA GM and scout, EVERY SINGLE one of them had Darko at the very least in the top 3, still above Dwyane Wade, still above Chris Bosh.

Prove it then. Because you can't. I can also guarantee you most GMs/scout did not see much of Darko based on location. Most had no chance of drafting him so they didn't even bother to scout him or had very limited video of the guy. To say every gm/scout had Darko above Wade and Bosh is pure horseshit and is coming from a butthurt Piston fan.


Now even if I concede that 50% (which is a stretch) of NBA GMs would have taken Melo over Darko, that same 50% would have taken Darko with the third pick. And they would have been wrong. But, he was still that highly regarded.

That's just your opinion actually. And I believe that number would have been much, much higher than 50%. The Pistons were thinking long term (or replacing Ben) with Darko and were high on prince so I sort of get where the pick was coming from - but that doesn't make it any less stupid. Same with Bowie. Always grab the talent before need that high in the draft.


It was not just media hype as you stated.

Yes it was. He was hyped by ESPN (see the MEDIA) and Chad Ford to stupid levels. This, despite limited ability to see the man the play. 99% of NBA fans didn't even know who the guy was until Chad Ford started screaming that he was the next Sabonis.

Even then, Darko's athletcism and skill level was never that great at all. If he played in college where everybody in America could have watched him he would not have been drafted 2nd overall. Media product.

[ambchang]

While Darko was most definitely overhyped, he was most definitely part of the top 3 in that year's draft, with Lebron #1, and Melo or Darko going 2 and 3. Bosh was the consensus 4, and people were shocked Wade was picked at 5. He was considered too short at SG back then.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d05/tracker/player?playerId=18423
Links to draft profiles are few and far between, but Darko being selected #2 did not cause an uproar back then because melo was rated much higher than Darko, but because Melo was a known star coming out of college, while Darko had the potential to be a game-changing big man in the league for years to come. The basketball purist felt it was unnecessary risk taking Darko instead of getting a sure thing like Melo.

The Darko selection made even more sense when you factor in the fact that Detroit could wait for Darko to develop, already have Tayshaun Prince at SF, and does not have an offense that could accommodate a volume scorer like Melo.

[ambchang]

Another draft report on Darko:
http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/MilicicDarko.html

Reactions right after the draft:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d03/story?id=1573414 (Detroit got an A+. It's from ESPN, so take it for what it's worth)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2003/draft/news/2003/06/27/nba_grades/ (A- for Detroit. SI is at least a little more reputable than ESPN)

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Thanks for proving MY point ambchang. The only evidence you have here is a ESPN link, which is the media and had a monopoly on stuff like this back then. At least draftexpress is more prevalent now. All that ESPN Darko hype was led by Chad Ford and no one takes him seriously anymore, for good reason.


While Darko was most definitely overhyped, he was most definitely part of the top 3 in that year's draft, with Lebron #1, and Melo or Darko going 2 and 3. Bosh was the consensus 4, and people were shocked Wade was picked at 5. He was considered too short at SG back then.

Except if you actually WATCHED WADE PLAY you would have realized he WAS a gamechanger. He DOMINATED in the NCAA tournament before the draft. No one was 'shocked' he went 5 - Dicky V was slobbing over his nuts. What the fuck are you talking about? Wade was balling in his final season at marquette.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d05/tracker/player?playerId=18423
while Darko had the potential to be a game-changing big man in the league for years to come.

Yes I heard that before, from the mespnedia. Have you seen Darko play? Did you ever see him play before he was drafted? What talent was wasted? He was never, ever that great of a player and less athletic than Tyler Hansbourough.


The basketball purist felt it was unnecessary risk taking Darko instead of getting a sure thing like Melo.

Basketball purist like Chad Ford and Pistons FO? :lol Notice how Melo was a 'sure thing'. Because he was. Media hype vs sure thing, hmm.


The Darko selection made even more sense when you factor in the fact that Detroit could wait for Darko to develop, already have Tayshaun Prince at SF, and does not have an offense that could accommodate a volume scorer like Melo.

Yes that was the justification for drafting the great white euro media hyped big man. And it blew up in their face. Just like it blew up in Portland's face back in 84.

Tyler Hansborough is more of an athlete than Darko based on his measurements. Everybody saw him play in college 4 years and realized he would be a middling NBA player. If Darko had played college ball, there is not a chance in hell he would have went in the top 5.

e - meant Marquette not Pitt.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Every year in training camp he talks about how he needs to get better on defense to improve his game, and that's not some coached answer. It's true he's not the sharpest penis in the vagina, but he's cognizant enough to know that defense is half the game and he doesn't play any. And yet he doesn't do anything about it. And while it's also true that he spends a lot of time in the gym honing his offensive craft, it's a form of laziness to not devote some of that time to work on his d. Even Dirk has overcome his limitations to become an adequate defender. Amare can't do anything about his lack of basketball IQ, but he does suffer from mental laziness.

Carmelo Anthony is an example to me of a guy who became a complete player because of dedication to his craft, after being a one-dimensional guy who only cared about scoring, and he's not exactly a Rhodes Scholar himself. What's Amare's excuse?


Amare has never had the veteran influence Melo had or the coaching influence Dirk had. AJ set up a system where Dirk played a specific role on D, he made sure that either Damp or Diop was on the floor to defend the low post so Dirk knew his job on D was pick and roll/help D. Basically, AJ found a way to maximize Dirk's physical strengths on D and hide his physical weaknesses. Having Amare guard bigger, stronger players and fight with them for rebounds isn't maximizing his strengths, in fact it's exposing them.

When Iverson was the PG on Denver, Melo played horrible D. Billups showed up and Melo's D got a lot better. You can't expect Amare to play D when the veterans on the team (Nash and Hill), are two of the worst defenders in basketball. They day Amare gets a veteran defensive leader like Billups at PG and still sucks at D is the day you can criticize him for not improving the way Melo has.

[gaKNOW!blee]

Amare has never had the veteran influence Melo had or the coaching influence Dirk had. AJ set up a system where Dirk played a specific role on D, he made sure that either Damp or Diop was on the floor to defend the low post so Dirk knew his job on D was pick and roll/help D. Basically, AJ found a way to maximize Dirk's physical strengths on D and hide his physical weaknesses. Having Amare guard bigger, stronger players and fight with them for rebounds isn't maximizing his strengths, in fact it's exposing them.

When Iverson was the PG on Denver, Melo played horrible D. Billups showed up and Melo's D got a lot better. You can't expect Amare to play D when the veterans on the team (Nash and Hill), are two of the worst defenders in basketball. They day Amare gets a veteran defensive leader like Billups at PG and still sucks at D is the day you can criticize him for not improving the way Melo has.

maybe im wrong, but I thought you hated Stoudemire?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

maybe im wrong, but I thought you hated Stoudemire?


I hated Amare till everyone else started hating him and started blaming him every single time the Suns lost. In essence, he's become the new Shaq. Everytime a PG bukakes all over Nash, it's somehow Amare's fault. Everytime the Suns lose by 20, it's because Amare grabbed 9 rebounds instead of 12. Phoenix fans have a tendency to blame one person for everything. The bad defense this year is a collective team problem, trading Amare won't cause one iota of improvement for their D.

[gaKNOW!blee]

yeah...but you called him tardemire and wanted him traded more than anyone....you cant just take that back lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

yeah...but you called him tardemire and wanted him traded more than anyone....you cant just take that back lol


Shit changes, people are too stupid to realize it but Amare has gotten better on both ends of the court. He's not the epically horrible defender people like Findog say he is, he's a below average defender that's exposed more than your usual below average defender because of the team he's on. Amare's crappy post defense is naturally more noticeable when he has no center to guard players like Bynum. His pick and roll and help defense is gonna look worse when Steve Nash on the other end of it never fighting through screens and constantly allowing players to drive by him. His rebounding is gonna look weaker than it is when Grant hill never boxes out and the guy he's guarding gets to freely slash in there and grab the rebound.

Take this game for example:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911190NOH.html

Now, who's fault is it the Hornets w/o Paul scored 110 points and had 25 offensive rebounds? Is it Amare's fault merely because he only grabbed 5 rebounds, or is it Grant Hill's fault for letting Peja Stojakovic go ape shit on the boards and Channing Frye's fault for letting Okafor grab 7 offensive boards?

[ambchang]

Thanks for proving MY point ambchang. The only evidence you have here is a ESPN link, which is the media and had a monopoly on stuff like this back then. At least draftexpress is more prevalent now. All that ESPN Darko hype was led by Chad Ford and no one takes him seriously anymore, for good reason.

Chad Ford most obviously is a hack, talking non-stop about Macjej Lampe. But SI also rated the Detroit pick highly.



Except if you actually WATCHED WADE PLAY you would have realized he WAS a gamechanger. He DOMINATED in the NCAA tournament before the draft. No one was 'shocked' he went 5 - Dicky V was slobbing over his nuts. What the fuck are you talking about? Wade was balling in his final season at marquette.

Issues about his size and outside shooting was raised. People were praying Bosh would drop to 5, and when Bosh was gone, Heat fans were looking for Kaman.

xCc2uQtsaIQ

People openly questioned why Miami would pick a SG when they already have Eddie Jones. Most people did not rate Wade as a player who had the potential to be an MVP caliber player. He was projected to go all over the place between 4th to the bottom of the 1st round. People were talking about multiple all-stars as his celing.



Yes I heard that before, from the mespnedia. Have you seen Darko play? Did you ever see him play before he was drafted? What talent was wasted? He was never, ever that great of a player and less athletic than Tyler Hansbourough.

No I have not seen him play, but I was not a professional scout. I don't travel to Europe to scout bench players. But the fact is, SI had the Detroit Pistons rated highly for selecting Darko, knowing full well Melo was still available.


Basketball purist like Chad Ford and Pistons FO? :lol Notice how Melo was a 'sure thing'. Because he was. Media hype vs sure thing, hmm.

Did you read what I wrote? I said basketball purist did not like the Darko pick because they felt Detroit should go for the sure thing instead of a talented project like Darko.



Yes that was the justification for drafting the great white euro media hyped big man. And it blew up in their face. Just like it blew up in Portland's face back in 84.

Tyler Hansborough is more of an athlete than Darko based on his measurements. Everybody saw him play in college 4 years and realized he would be a middling NBA player. If Darko had played college ball, there is not a chance in hell he would have went in the top 5.

e - meant Marquette not Pitt.

I wouldn't know where Darko would be drafted if he played college ball, but he WAS rated highly back then.

Another article back in 2003, from nbadraft.net
http://www.nbadraft.net/node/4478

This years draft has two potential "uberfreaks". First and foremost is Darko Milicic. The Detroit Pistons new franchise talent and a player who could end up as one of the top 3-5 players in the league some day. His abilities are truly remarkable. Not to mention he comes from a growing basketball hotbed, the former Yugoslavian republic known as Serbia-Montenegro.

Ask any European scout about Yugos and they will tell you, they are all similarly hungry. "They are hungrier than the average player. They're mean. All of them!" So Darko is a player with immense talent and potential, but he also seems to have the perfect predisposition for success in the NBA. Milicic is not going to dominate instantly because of his age, but his talents will probably allow him to be competitive in a short period of time.

[crc21209]

How about Top 5 guys who shouldnt even be in the NBA:

#1. Luke Walton...enough said...:lol

[duhoh]

I think Mo Williams. Do you guys agree?

How about Top 5 guys who shouldnt even be in the NBA:

#1. Luke Walton...enough said...:lol

hear hear!

mine would have to be in no particular order:

t-mac (one of my favorite players, but too injured)
varejao (i don't think the cavs change much if they went without sideshow bob)
LAL's bench (aside from the good players)
j.r. smith (all-star talent with pre-school maturity)
and no list with this topic is complete without greg oden

[JamStone]

Actually it does. Because 'every gm/scout' did not watch Darko play much basketball. Most fans never heard of him or even seen him. His hype was greater than Yi, by far.

Your turn. Proof they didn't?




Prove it then. Because you can't. I can also guarantee you most GMs/scout did not see much of Darko based on location. Most had no chance of drafting him so they didn't even bother to scout him or had very limited video of the guy. To say every gm/scout had Darko above Wade and Bosh is pure horseshit and is coming from a butthurt Piston fan.

You could go through draft reports by scouts and experts. They all pegged Darko as a consensus top 3 prospect in the draft, most of them top 2, and some even (unbelievably) the top prospect in the draft.

Now, I'll do this much. Since you're challenging my contention that Darko was regarded as a top 3 prospect in the 2003 NBA draft by all NBA GMs and scouts, all you have to do is give me proof of one scout or NBA GM at the time that said he wasn't. You prove that, and I'll prove what you're asking.

It's all rhetoric. I remember the 2003 NBA Draft. It wasn't just espn. It was every mock draft I looked at, it was sports illustrated, it was every NBA analyst. There were definitely some that debated over Carmelo v. Darko. But, none that debated that Darko wasn't at least in the mix among the top 3 draft prospects. So, first do what you ask of me and show me proof of NBA GMs and/or scouts saying Darko wasn't a top 3 prospect, and I'll give you proof that they all regarded him that way OR I'll admit I was wrong.




That's just your opinion actually. And I believe that number would have been much, much higher than 50%. The Pistons were thinking long term (or replacing Ben) with Darko and were high on prince so I sort of get where the pick was coming from - but that doesn't make it any less stupid. Same with Bowie. Always grab the talent before need that high in the draft.

It's my opinion based on what I remember at the time. It's your opinion now that it's wrong. And?




Yes it was. He was hyped by ESPN (see the MEDIA) and Chad Ford to stupid levels. This, despite limited ability to see the man the play. 99% of NBA fans didn't even know who the guy was until Chad Ford started screaming that he was the next Sabonis.

Even then, Darko's athletcism and skill level was never that great at all. If he played in college where everybody in America could have watched him he would not have been drafted 2nd overall. Media product.

By 2003, most if not all NBA teams had international scouts. And, with the history of NBA players, Serbian players were among those that were actually highly scouted. I don't have any way of showing you how many NBA scouts and which among them actually saw Darko play. I can tell you that before the draft, Darko was in New York and gave private work outs to NBA scouts and GMs, so they could have seen him personally before the draft even if they didn't watch him play abroad.

As for his athleticism and skill, Darko actually had his measurables taken when he was in New York, just like they did for American draft prospects at their NBA combines/workouts. Darko tested out as a very gifted athlete for his size and build. He had better "agility" then both Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony at a much heavier weight. He was a legitimate 6'11" guy at 17 years of age. He had a 7'5" wingspan. He had above average strength for a 17 year old (13 reps on the bench press). His straight away speed wasn't great, but pretty good considering his size and weight. It was about the same as Chris Bosh's sprint speed when Bosh weight about 30 lbs. lighter.

So, no, it wasn't just ESPN media hype. He had outstanding size and great measurables considering his size.

Now, it was still absolutely the wrong pick by Detroit. There wasn't enough in-game experience to really evaluate him. But that was the way the draft was going. That's pretty much the same thing with high school guys like Tyson Chandler and Kwame Brown. The great potential of athletic big men with great size outweighed the risk of not knowing if they could handle the NBA.

You can say it was a stupid pick. Sure, it's easy to say that now. But, the way the draft had gone year after year to more of a guessing game and more about potential than actual production, that's how NBA GMs were evaluating prospects by then. GMs wanted to gamble on the Pau Gasol instead of settling the Shane Battier, the Dirk Nowitzki instead of Raef Lafrentz.

Sure Darko was a bad pick. But at the time, he was a consensus top 3 draft prospect. And, "at the time," he wasn't viewed or perceived as a poor draft selection.

It's easy to say he was now.

[monosylab1k]

What do you mean he's never developed post moves? I've seen him go into the post and seal a guy with a drop-step. He's not a good post player, but that's not for lack of trying.

I want you to say that with a straight face every time Dirk shoots a fadeaway over some guys he's 3-5 inches taller than.

[Baseline]

Ian Mahinmi.

[mavs>spurs2]

Mono >> Findog