Dennis Rodman Belongs in the Hall of Fame

[duncan228]

Dennis Rodman Belongs in the Hall of Fame (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-dennisrodmanbelongsi&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

The Basketball Hall of Fame finalists were announced last week (http://www.insidehoops.com/basketball-hall-fame-finalists.shtml) with big names like Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen, and the entire 1992 Dream Team standing out. One deserving candidate, though, was left off: Dennis Rodman.

The Worm has become a joke in retirement, but he’s one of the best rebounders of all time and was a peerless defender in his day. Today, Scott Carefoot made the case for Rodman (http://blogs.thescore.com/nba/2010/02/16/dennis-rodman-should-be-in-the-hall-of-fame/):

Peep this résumé: seven-time leader in rebounds per game, seven-time All-Defensive First Team selection, two-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time All-Star, five-time NBA champion. Doesn’t that look like a Hall of Famer? It seems to me that if you’re the greatest of all time at an important skill in this game — that being rebounding — then it’s kind of an outrage to not even consider that player worthy of consideration for the Hall.

Make no mistake, Rodman most certainly was the greatest rebounder of all time. He’s only 10th all-time in rebounds per game because he played in an era with a much slower pace and against much better competition than Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell did with their ridiculous 20-plus rebounding averages.

We all know what’s keeping Rodman out of Springfield: his bad boy image and antics as a player, his slow degradation after retirement, and his jokey involvement in everything from awful movies like Double Team and Simon Sez (which was on this morning when I woke up, and which somehow co-stars Dane Cook as Rodman’s sidekick) to the recent Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew. He’s also recently played in something called the Eastern Basketball Alliance (http://www.stargazette.com/article/20100213/SPORTS/2130403/Rodman+finishes+2-0++but+little+support+for+Bulldogs), which sounds like a dream you’d have after watching a playoff game and reading a history textbook.

If you never saw him play, you’d think he was a personality more than anything else, and no one can blame you given his current public image.

Those of us who were lucky enough to watch him know he was the real deal. Rebounds and defense don’t lend themselves particularly well to highlight videos, but watch the clip Carefoot embedded in his post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icJLs4t0lLo). It showcases a player who changed the game every time he stepped on the court, the kind of guy who clearly deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame.

[ChumpDumper]

If there is a Hall of Overrated, he's in.

[Allanon]

Best rebounder ever and 7 time All Defensive First team. If Rodman gets a HoF'er nod, that would be 2 HoF'ers on Jordan's team. Wow.

[galvatron3000]

greatest rebounder of All Time?

[PGDynasty24]

If there is a Hall of Overrated, he's in.

Were you born yesterday? He is the best rebounder in history,one of the best defenders. I remember with Pistons he would guard Magic to Worthy. He was a freak of nature. He was undersized but he understood the angles of rebounding. Been on title teams. He deserves to be in

[lil_penny]

One of the greatest rebounders and defensive players ive seen.. can't see how he isn't a hof'er

[sefant77]

Greatest rebounder ever, what an instinct for rebounds.

His numbers with 6-10+? Just gos knows...

[The TroutBum]

As a Jazz fan, I have no love for Rodman, but his game was unreal. I would pick him for my "All Time Team" in a heartbeat. If he doesn't get into the Hall, it will be as big of a sham as Rose not getting in.

I hate him as a person, but LOVED his game.

[sefant77]

Best NBA picture alltime

http://www.bullsbrasil.kit.net/rodman_dive_600.jpg

[Pero]

If he doesn't get into the Hall, it will be as big of a sham as Rose not getting in.


Jalen? Malik? :lol

[Killakobe81]

Sorry OVERrated ...
Great rebounder pound for pound one of teh all-time best GREATEST not so fast ...
As far as defense with the Pistons he was at his best but WORTHY torched him in teh NBA FINALS wITHOUT Magic and Scott ...
When with the bulls he still had pretty good anticipation but had invented the "flop" before the Euros took over ...
I am sorry he is good player great rebounder but not sure HOF material ...
And dont use the ALL NBA defense argument ...cuz many on here use it to praise players they like: Duncan, jordan, Bowen and Pippen
But say it is a sham when players they don't like: Kobe, Lebron, c3p (or any controversial picks) are named ...

[XFactor]

I agree, Rodman although was not the superstar of the likes of Pippen or Jordan. He was that xfactor that would get you over the hump.

[Killakobe81]

How in the hell you compare Rodman to pete Rose?!

[Killakobe81]

I agree, Rodman although was not the superstar of the likes of Pippen or Jordan. He was that xfactor that would get you over the hump.

this I agree with ...
Putting in Rodman would be similar to putting in Noah (with a few more seasons ) if had not gotten hurt this year.
Noah plays defense rebounds hustles and etc. but that doesnt make him a HOF'er ...
Rodman way more versatile ...but IF noah gives me 8 more season healthy like he started this one I would vote for him over Rodman ESPECIALLY since the HOF factors in college as well ...

[D2Procon]

Rodman way more versatile ...but IF noah gives me 8 more season healthy like he started this one I would vote for him over Rodman ESPECIALLY since the HOF factors in college as well ...

Wow... I did not know that.

[HarlemHeat37]

Rodman is definitely overrated, although I believe he should be in the HOF..Pippen is severely overrated nowadays as well..

[Allanon]

Rodman averaged ~16 rebounds per game for almost a decade. Has any PF ever done this?

[namlook]

Rodman is definitely deserving. He was one of the best defensive players and rebounders in NBA history and he made big contributions to multiple rings on two different teams.


this I agree with ...
Putting in Rodman would be similar to putting in Noah (with a few more seasons ) if had not gotten hurt this year.
Noah plays defense rebounds hustles and etc. but that doesnt make him a HOF'er ...
Rodman way more versatile ...but IF noah gives me 8 more season healthy like he started this one I would vote for him over Rodman ESPECIALLY since the HOF factors in college as well ...

Noah is nowhere near Rodman as a defender or even as a rebounder. Rodman pulled down almost 19 rebounds a game one season! I guess a lot of people don't know just how good of a defensive player Rodman was either. Two time defensive player of the year and 8 time all-defensive team member. Noah isn't even close to even approaching Rodman's resume.

[Killakobe81]

It's the Basketball hall of fame ... not Pro ...
I hope this does not come across as "hating" i think he was a great defender and a better scorer (than most remember) and a good passer too his first few years ...
Then he started becoming a rockstar and just focused on rebounding ...i thought his defense slipped a bit. Not a huge stat guy. Just in big games it seemed al the big defensive plays were being made by MJ, Scottie, Scott Burrell or Randy Brown (remember him?).
In the Finals Kemp torched him (watch the footage) and at times even choking ass Karl Malone ...
I think one of the greatest rebounders but highly overrated on defense ...not a HOF'er
If he goes then i think Bowen should go...because he was a truly great defender his whole career has rings only thing he doesnt have is the stats ...

[Killakobe81]

Rodman averaged ~16 rebounds per game for almost a decade. Has any PF ever done this?

Agree ...

[Killakobe81]

Rodman is definitely deserving. He was one of the best defensive players and rebounders in NBA history and he made big contributions to multiple rings on two different teams.

Are you serious?!

Better defenders IMHO

Battier
Bowen
Cooper
MJ
Kobe
Olajawon
Alonzo
Pippen
Dennis Johnson
KG
GP

Most of these guys ... also gave you something on the other end too ...but just FACTORING DEFENSE ...i will take all those guys over Rodman Especially the Bulls version ...

[Killakobe81]

Plus Cooper, Olajawon, Pippen, MJ DJ and Bowen have multiple rings ...

Rodman is great but no way he should be in HOF BEFORE Bernard King even though BK blew his knee ...

[namlook]

Are you serious?!

Better defenders IMHO

Battier
Bowen
Cooper
MJ
Kobe
Olajawon
Alonzo
Pippen
Dennis Johnson
KG
GP

Most of these guys ... also gave you something on the other end too ...but just FACTORING DEFENSE ...i will take all those guys over Rodman Especially the Bulls version ...

Rodman was defensive player of the year twice with 8 all-defensive team selections. How many of the guys you listed have matched or bettered both those things? Then tell me how many players you listed have averaged 18.7 rebounds in a season?

[Muser]

:lmao at Kobe being a better defender that Rodman.

[namlook]

:lmao at Kobe being a better defender that Rodman.

Kobe has been a great defender but if you consider Rodman's rebounding, no way is Kobe better than Rodman as an overall defensive player.

[SenorSpur]

With this stats and resume, how could anyone say he doesn't belong in the HOF. Sure he was a kook off the court, but that's besides the point. He was an absolute maniac on the court and played his ass off from start to finish. He was a transcendent player.

[Killakobe81]

The DPOY argument seriously?
Bowen and Battier got hosed ... by that Lebron finished 2nd last year ...
C3P is the PG last year ...seriously? (all NBA yes)
Kobe only plays defense when he wants to ...and he has been there many times ...

You have to do better than that ...
Watch the NBA Finals in '89 in or the Bulls 2nd 3 peat Rodman is all over the place flopping, clapping hustling making sold contributions ...but on defense ...meh. Kemp shitted on him, Malone at times, so did too austin Car

I love DEFENSE ...I just think Rodman's was overrated ...good still but not great IMHO

[Sportstudi]

Rodman averaged ~16 rebounds per game for almost a decade. Has any PF ever done this?

While being only 6-7... and he started in the NBA in 86-87 in the age of 25. Quite late. Imagine he would have started with 21 (or so), developed his game a few seasons earlier and then start to think of his RPG he could have had. Just insane.

[sefant77]

Rodman averaged ~16 rebounds per game for almost a decade. Has any PF ever done this?

this.

Watch Dwight, hes playing as 7-0 steriod monster in a team of sucking rebounders and he not even scratch on Rodmans average numbers...

[Killakobe81]

:lmao at Kobe being a better defender that Rodman.

Read my next post (when he wants) Kobe is sometimesy on defense but when locked in ...
Look at young Kobe in the 3 peat years or when he plays Ray allen or someone he doesnt like or is measured against ...

Rodman is overrated on defense ...so is Kobe but if i needed one stop Id take any of the guys on my list over Rodman INCLUDING kobe young Rodman was on his way ...
Bulls rodman would leave his man to chase the board all the freaking time ...watch the tape yall seduced by hype ...

[Muser]

Kobe has been a great defender but if you consider Rodman's rebounding, no way is Kobe better than Rodman as an overall defensive player.

Kobe has been a good defender yes, But Rodman in his prime was elite.

[Sportstudi]

With this stats and resume, how could anyone say he doesn't belong in the HOF. Sure he was a kook off the court, but that's besides the point. He was an absolute maniac on the court and played his ass off from start to finish. He was a transcendent player.

This.

You do not have to like the person and his behaviour off the court, but he was just a freak on the court. If you like basketball, you have to respect his game.

[Muser]

I'd take Rodman over Battier any day of the week too, if Rodman is overrated then Battier is overrated as fuck.

[Killakobe81]

this.

Watch Dwight, hes playing as 7-0 steriod monster in a team of sucking rebounders and he not even scratch on Rodmans average numbers...

True. But the 90's sucked scoring and shooting numbers were down...
If Dwight did nothing but dense and didnt help as much with shotblocks and just went after boards I bet he could get close even with the new rules ...
Rodman bacame a stats chasing rebound whore how is that diffrent than Kobe gunning for 40 points?

I like Rodman as a Piston best of all ... no ego ...no crazy rebounder numbers he was like a more defensive minded Lamar could give you a little of everything ...

My dislike has NOTHING to do with off-court hell he was even a Laker ...fact remains ...the only thing elite about Rodman was his rebounding. His defense was early the rest he built off of reputation ...

I do agree Battier is slightly overrated defensively but he tries hard studies hard and doesnt leave his man to hoard rebounds ...defense is his primary focus ...

[Cane]

He's probably roadblocked by the HOF organization due to his personal life. On top of that he has an arguable case for HOF candidacy but many also argue the other way.

I'm still waiting on this guy to get in ;) :

http://www.remembertheaba.com/OnlyintheABAMaterial/BigHairMaterial/Gilmore/IsselDriveGilmoreClose.jpg

[namlook]

Kobe has been a good defender yes, But Rodman in his prime was elite.

I agree. Rodman was very special. In his prime Rodman was like a Bruce Bowen on defense. Then add that he was the best rebounder of his generation on top of that. Then add that he was a difference maker on championship teams. With those three things combined you have a Hall of Famer.

[Killakobe81]

Rodman in Detroit was elite ...defensively.
Rebounding elite Spurs & Bulls

[Sportstudi]

I just checked the stats. Rodman had 158 games with 20+ rebounds.... just insane.

[sefant77]

I agree. Rodman was very special. In his prime Rodman was like a Bruce Bowen on defense. Then add that he was the best rebounder of his generation on top of that. Then add that he was a difference maker on championship teams and with those three things combined you have a Hall of Famer.

He had also a great metagame. He was able to piss off so many players on the court just with his style and energy and all...

I will always remember Frank Brickowski, i almost felt sorry with that dude how he got completly owned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRsHwtsWic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upoao1L1dSo&feature=related

[Killakobe81]

I will ket this go for a hile but I'll say this
Mad props to him he is a winner.
He turned his focus to rebounding (at the expense of defense) and people are actually arguing him for the HOF!!
But Im sorry he was not even the best defender on his own team ... (Bulls)
Rodman on Bulls is like artest on Lakers or Rox ...still a good defender but elite?
Come on!!!

[Killakobe81]

You say that as if Rodman don't have 5 rings.

No, being great at rebounding and having rings is not enough for the HOF ...IMHO.

[Killakobe81]

He had also a great metagame. He was able to piss off so many players on the court just with his style and energy and all...

I will always remember Frank Brickowski, i almost felt sorry with that dude how he got completly owned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRsHwtsWic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upoao1L1dSo&feature=related

This I agree with he was the ultimate "pest" later but far from elite later on ...

[Killakobe81]

Is being great at scoring, and having rings enough?

Say what you want but i know you aint comapring Kobe and Rodman?

Kobe is way better at defense than Rodman was at acoring even if you dont think kobe is at Rodmans level defensively...again watch the 3-peat years ...

But whatever ...

Like i said Rodman great player just not a HOF'er my standards higher and different than yours no harm, no foul Luva ...

[Killakobe81]

Oh and Alonzo was a way better defender especially when you compare late in their career ASK the Mavs in Game 6 ... LOL

[Killakobe81]

Oh and since awards matter Ben wallace is abetter defender thanb Rodman!!! (I dont believe that)
but hey all we care about are stats and awards in the NBA forum ...

[ambchang]

Rodman was great BEFORE he won all those rebounding titles. He was fantastic as a defender, and did all the necessary dirty work, but after he got obsessed with getting rebounds, he hung around the basket, doing nothing else.

[Killakobe81]

Rodman was great BEFORE he won all those rebounding titles. He was fantastic as a defender, and did all the necessary dirty work, but after he got obsessed with getting rebounds, he hung around the basket, doing nothing else.

EXACTLY my point REBOUNDING does not = GREAT DEFENSE ...

Here are the top rebounders in the NBA ...WHo are GREAT defenders?

Dwight? Yes
Camby? No (a good defender now, was GREAT when younger)
Noah? Yes
AL Jeff? No
ZBO? No
Dirk? No
Boozer? No
Lee? No
Wallace? Yes
Duncan? No (see Camby)
Haywood? No (but very good )

Rebounding does not equal GREAT defense I SAID ALREADY he was an ELITE rebounder ...
Now if you add rebounds with steals or blocks that is a BETtER indicator

AGAIN rodman was a great rebounder good overall player and a very good defender but HIGHLY overrated defender ...

[IronMexican]

Lol at Kobe being on any great defensive team. He's a average to good defender right now. When he wants to, he might be able to lock someone down. He's vastly overrated on D.

[Killakobe81]

You standards sure may be different, but they sure aren't higher.

Rodman led the league for 7 seasons in rebounding. Theser are during the years of Shaq, Barkely, Malone, Hakeem, Mourning, Ewing, Robinson, and I'm sure there are more.

Mourning led the league in rebounding 0 times.

Rodman was 1st team all defensive 7 times

Mourning 2.
Cooper 5.
Battier 0
Dennis Johnson 6

NowI actually watch the game with a coach's eyes not stat geek or fantasy nerd eyes ...
Please, share with us your standards. It can't be stats.

[The Franchise]

Stop it, you starting to look stupid.

Starting? :lol

[mojorizen7]

Absofuckinglutely he does.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/259884/dennis_rodman/
^ This vid worth your time just for the old school tune :lol

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

Lol at Kobe being on any great defensive team. He's a average to good defender right now. When he wants to, he might be able to lock someone down. He's vastly overrated on D.

Your Kobe hatred is unhealthy.

[namlook]

Lol at Kobe being on any great defensive team. He's a average to good defender right now. When he wants to, he might be able to lock someone down. He's vastly overrated on D.

The all-defensive teams are not media awards so they actually mean something. Kobe has been on the all-defensive teams for nine seasons and first team SEVEN times including the past four seasons. That's voted on by the head coaches, not the media. So if you think you know more about defense than the head coaches let me laugh in your face.

[namlook]

Rodman was great BEFORE he won all those rebounding titles. He was fantastic as a defender, and did all the necessary dirty work, but after he got obsessed with getting rebounds, he hung around the basket, doing nothing else.

Rodman was also a great defender during many of the seasons that he won rebounding titles. He averaged 18.7 rebounds one season with the Pistons. 18.3 another season.

Rodman was on all-defense teams from 1988 to 1996 including first team seven times. From 1991 to 1996 he also averaged 17 rebounds a game leading the league in rebounding each of those seasons. So clearly there was a lot of overlap there. Even with the Bulls he was first team all-defense in 1995-96 and also led the league in rebounding that year. His last couple seasons with the Bulls he wasn't playing the same level of defense, but to say he stopped playing great defense when he started winning rebounding titles is not accurate.

[hitmanyr2k]

The all-defensive teams are not media awards so they actually mean something. Kobe has been on the all-defensive teams for nine seasons and first team SEVEN times including the past four seasons. That's voted on by the head coaches, not the media. So if you think you know more about defense than the head coaches let me laugh in your face.

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive competition at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the fuck" when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

What do you coach, retards? I gave you the stats. If stats don't prove a players greatness, what does, genius. Kobe has never even been close to a great defender. Get out of here with that shit.

Actually you're the only one looking retarded with that nonsense.

If you actually believe that garbage you don't know basketball. Plain and simple.\

The Noah comparison was dumb, but Rodman wouldn't be regarded nearly as great of a defender in this era basketball. Late 80's a flagrant foul was considered 'great defense'. Kobe has been an elite man to man defender in a era without hand checking and throughout an era where the league kept changing the rules to benefit the quick perimeter ball handler. He's also an absolutely elite team double team/roamer, in the Pippen mold.

The only thing mediocre about Kobe's defense is running through screens. Man to man? And the tendency to not respect SCRUBS or take defensive plays off when he's playing 40 minutes and forced to carry the offensive load.

Basically, Lakaluva has no fucking idea what he's talking about. I guarantee 99% of the coaches would consider Kobe one of the best, if not the best in the league.

[Ode to Triple Ocho]

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive competition at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the fuck" when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

Sorry you're fucking dumb. Kobe constantly shut down players like Mcgrady in Wade man to man when he wanted. in 2006, 2007 Kobe had one of if not the worst interior defensive front court in the NBA. Yet was still exceptional on D.

You do realize in 06/07 half of the Lakers fanbase were Shaq jockers and hated Kobe Bryant's guts, right?


So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

Actually Kobe earned every single one of his defensive accolades. Larry Brown's informed opinion > your dumb opinion. It really doesn't matter as Kobe is already looked as an all-time elite defender by the people that matter. Nobody really gives a fuck what a Kobe hater spews on the internet about him

[hitmanyr2k]

Sorry you're fucking dumb. Kobe constantly shut down players like Mcgrady in Wade man to man when he wanted. in 2006, 2007 Kobe had one of if not the worst interior defensive front court in the NBA. Yet was still exceptional on D.

You do realize in 06/07 half of the Lakers fanbase were Shaq jockers and hated Kobe Bryant's guts, right?


Actually Kobe earned every single one of his defensive accolades. Larry Brown's informed opinoin > your dumb opinion. It really doesn't matter as Kobe is already looked as an all-time elite defender by the people that matter. Nobody really gives a fuck what a Kobe hater spews on the internet about him

Whatever Corky. Kobe has never consistently done anything on the defensive end. Even the most devoted Kobe groupie will tell you his defense wasn't worth a damn in 2006 or 2007...certainly not worthy of All-Defense first team. The guy had a defensive rating of 105 in 2006 which is average. Then he has a defensive rating of 109 in 2007. That rating is worthy of Steve Nash :lol

Kobe may show up and try play defense against one of his peers on nationally televised games every now and then but that doesn't mean he's consistent and it certainly doesn't mean he deserves first team All-Defense. Elite defenders show up every night and make an impact on the game. Kobe doesn't do that. His impact on the game comes mostly from shot attempts :lol

[Muser]

:lmao at Kobe/Camby being elite defenders. At least lakaluva gets it.

[ambchang]

Rodman was also a great defender during many of the seasons that he won rebounding titles. He averaged 18.7 rebounds one season with the Pistons. 18.3 another season.

Rodman was on all-defense teams from 1988 to 1996 including first team seven times. From 1991 to 1996 he also averaged 17 rebounds a game leading the league in rebounding each of those seasons. So clearly there was a lot of overlap there. Even with the Bulls he was first team all-defense in 1995-96 and also led the league in rebounding that year. His last couple seasons with the Bulls he wasn't playing the same level of defense, but to say he stopped playing great defense when he started winning rebounding titles is not accurate.

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding titles he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.

[Chieflion]

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding titles he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.
I think you can't make the argument that Rodman's defense declined using the Pistons as an example. The Pistons were on a decline before he got traded to the Spurs.

[Killakobe81]

The Noah comaprison was made in regards to the HOF ... READ IT AGAIN.

Having a difference of opinion does not make anyone "dumb" if they give reasons ...to back up what they believe and dont just post: "rapist" or "mangina" or the various crap posted on here.

You used stats (Lakaluva) to make your argument (even though I said I'm not a stat guy amd i hate awards even more) because i have seen them manipulated in: business, sports education and polotics far too often but to each his own. You tell me in your worklife that you have not seen stats manipulated or someopne less deserving get an award? Is the NBA any different?
I also Argued that rebounding is great but rebounding helps a "team's defense" more than it indicates someones individual defensive prowess ...

The comment about me coaching retards is insensitive ...to your mother ...just kidding ...

But if you want to make this a name calling contest when we were having a reasonable (even if) heated debate...you can go there I will not ...

So after some reflection let me sum up my point ...

Pistons Rodman good to great rebounder AND a HOF level team and man to man defender for a few seasons ...

Bulls Rodman All-world rebounder a good help defender* (if he wasnt leaving too early to chase boards) and a vastly OVERRATED man to man defender...
I guess if you add the early Rodman defense and his later rebounding numbers MAYBE i can see HOF player...and the case has been made by many on here I get it ...don't agree but get it.

But my point is with most HOF players there is something about them that should leave "no doubt" about their candidiacy. ...when you watch them on film. Watch Rodman's old games (the Pistons Dynasty series DVD is a good start) film does not lie. A you tube highlught video is not enough either. Watch the games.
Rebound stats do not indicate how great a defender someone is and I have never seen one (stat) that I trust completely but if you research the web you can find some that do a much better job than rebound totals (or steals or blocks for that matter)

Some think Pippen is overrated (and borderline HOF) and he maybe slightly but I think he is a HOF'er and way better as a defender than Rodman but if we use the criteria Rebounds and DPOY awards he would be classified as the lessor defender.

Rodman is overrated by fans (IMHO) for his personality and energy he brought and maybe underrated by some for his antics ...

I actually loved "young" Rodman when he was a bench player ...I thought he had the potential to be an all-time great defender BUT he decided to focus on rebounding and as of yet the HOF committee agrees with me OVER the GENIUS of Lakaluva ...
Does that mean I am right definitively? No. But I trust their judgement more than yours.

Again I used noah as an example to say hustle and rebound numbers DOES NOT make you a hall of fame player or great defensive player if I did not spell that out clearly enough for the MENSA members that post here my fault...i hope this helps.... I doubt it will ..

And for the kobe shots on here I Said (read the thread) that kobe is sometimesy on defense ...no disagreements here and with the injuries mounting even when he tries hee is less effective than he was ...

But if ONE stop was needed I would take any of the guys on my list OVER rodman and I stand by that statement because Rodman was only truly elite as a defender when he wasnt going after rebound titles ... watch Rodman's first 3 years vs. the rest you will see what I mean ...

[Killakobe81]

I am fully aware of the All-D teams and rebounding titles he won. However, Rodman made most of his All-D teams in the later half due to reputation more than what he actually did on the court.

Rodman was traded to the Spurs for Sean Elliott after two years leading the league in rebounding. Elliott, while a fantastic SF, is nowhere worth a HOF material player in his prime at any point in his career.

The following are the Pistons defensive ranking in the years Rodman gained more playing time. Sure the performance of Detroit depends on quite a few things, but it's a good reflection on Rodman's impact on the team's defense:

89-90: 2nd of 27. Rodman averages 29 mins and 9.7 rebs.
90-91: 4th of 27. Rodman averages 33.5 mins and 12.5 rebs.
91-92: 6th of 27. Rodman averages 40.3 mins and 18.7 rebs.
92-93: 15th of 27. Rodman averages 38.9 mins and 18.3 rebs.
93-94: 26th of 27. Rodman traded. Also note that the Pistons sucked that season, and it wasn't just Rodman leaving.

As for the Spurs:
92-93: 10th of 27. Before Rodman joined.
93-94: 9th of 27. Rodman averages 37.8 mins and 17.3 rebs.
94-95: 5th of 27. 32 min and 16.8 rebs.
95-96: 8th of 27. Rodman traded for Will Perdue.
96-97: 27th of 27th. Robinson was hurt.

As you can see, Rodman's reboudning doesn't really have too much effect on his teams' defensive rankings. he still won his All-D selections and such, but his effectiveness has undoubtedly declined.

Instead of the defensive demon who would chase perimeter players, body up post players, and being a total annoyance out there, he would just hang out around the basket area, waiting for rebounds, leaving the new breed of tall SFs draining jumper after jumper (most representatively Robert Horry).

Don't get me wrong, I think Rodman was the best rebounding of all time, and he was also the best defensive player ever during the early parts of his career. It's a shame he went with all the hoopla and destroyed his game.

Great post. You summed up my thoughts EXACTLY ...even using stats...

Again I dont trust them but just watch the games and you can see what ambchang and I meant he did not care about defense (as much) he went for stat padding.
He would leave his man to grab the board he did get it (He could of been the best defender of all time (perhaps) and would of get my HOF vote as well (not that it matters)

again I hope my post does not come across as "hate"
I dont hate Rodman and i think for his size his rebound numbers were amazing I just think as a coach I would take 12-13 rebounds with better defense over the extra 5 he would get ...also I think he missed the chance to be the greatest defender of his generation ...

[Killakobe81]

I honestly don't think Kobe has truly earned a All-Defense first team selection since 2004. His defense has been very much overrated since then. I think he gets selected based on reputation from his earlier years and also because there's really no great defensive competition at his position. In 2006 and 2007 in particular even die-hard Laker fans (and Kobe worshippers on LG.net) were saying "what the fuck" when Kobe was selected on the first team. They knew the guy hadn't earned it.

So yeah, Kobe has the defensive accolades but he's never going to be looked at as one of all-time great defenders as his accolades would suggest. He's been horribly inconsistent on that end of the floor for a long time now and his defense simply doesn't affect a game as much as the true elite defenders listed in this thread. His very mediocre defensive ratings the last 5 years bear that out.

Agreed. That's why the accolades (aLL NBA/DPOY)mean crap ...but when focused he is very good i think the "elite" days have passed him by ...

But If you needed 1 stop in today's NBA he is in the discussion ...

But in 2007 in particular Kobe made all team NBA defense did not deserve it he was living off the first 5 years of his career much like Rodman did ...

[ambchang]

I think you can't make the argument that Rodman's defense declined using the Pistons as an example. The Pistons were on a decline before he got traded to the Spurs.

True, the Pistons were starting to decline due to the expansion draft (losing their depth), and age/injuries, but Rodman certainly did not do his part in improving the defense like many claimed.

A better indicator was the Spurs defense, it didn't improve dramatically with Rodman, and did not regress dramatically without Rodman. Interestingly, the Spurs actually played the best defense when Rodman went down for 33 games due to injuries/suspensions, and averaging the least minutes and rebounds.