Building for the future

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So, it's pretty clear that we aren't going anywhere this year - this team simply hasn't gelled, nor does it have an identity. During the championship years our identity was based on defence first and foremost - we would win games by simply stopping the opponent from scoring for long stretches of the game, usually due to Bruce's ability to lock down elite scorers, and Tim/Rob's incredible help defence. That model is dead. So, where do we go from here?

As I see it, 5 guys are a lock to stay:
Tim
Tony
George
Grizzly
Malik

Added to that, I'd like to see them give Ian a cheap contract as he looked like an NBA bench player to me (get the guy on the court and develop him a bit NOW!), and I'd love to see Manu stay on a decent contract (2 yrs, 15 million - overpay a bit because he's great PR for the team, and the guy is still a terror off the bench, we just can't rely on him as the 3rd scorer any more).

So, that's 7 players - what would you like to see done with the other 5 spots? From what I can see we need 2 shooters (a swing and a stretch 4), 2 athletic wings (one bona fide scorer, the other a top shelf defender), and a long big to play with Tim. Exactly who, I'm not sure yet, although I would like to see us miss the playoffs and draft a Xavier Henry type.

What say you?

PS If you want to call me out for being sacreligious (ie. accepting that the team is not going to win the title this year), save it because it's pointless.

I'm throwing this open because RJ and Dice will both effectively be expiring next year (which makes them attractive to salary cutting teams), Finley is gone, Mason is gone, Bonner is probably gone

[Obstructed_View]

This team has all the pieces to win now. If they miss the playoffs or struggle just to sneak in and exit early, nobody should be safe.

[Shastafarian]

The main problem is the Spurs are already at around $54 million for next year (thanks RJ!). Projections on the cap are right around there, probably even less. That means there aren't a lot of signing options out there. The MLE is available but I forget if the LLE is annual or not. Splitter coming over would be ideal but that's a big unknown on talent and whether he'd even come over. It's just not looking good even with the young talent on the team.

[EricB]

This team has all the pieces to win now. If they miss the playoffs or struggle just to sneak in and exit early, nobody should be safe.


Agreed.

If RJ could figure out how to bring tonight's effort every night and manu can be like he was tonight then you've got something good there.

Hell Duncan was HORRIBLE offensively and they still won.

Hill wasn't that great either (pressure being home)

If Parker can shake off the hip thing then things will keep improving..

[Shastafarian]

Agreed.

If RJ could figure out how to bring tonight's effort every night and manu can be like he was tonight then you've got something good there.

Hell Duncan was HORRIBLE offensively and they still won.

Hill wasn't that great either (pressure being home)

If Parker can shake off the hip thing then things will keep improving..

They were playing a team that is 18-35 in a shit conference. It should've been a blowout even with Tim not shooting well.

[5in10]

Tyrus Thomas and splitter will hopefully be building block of the future too

[EricB]

They were playing a team that is 18-35 in a shit conference. It should've been a blowout even with Tim not shooting well.


And?

The Pacers have some good pieces, it's not like they were playing the freaking Nets.

[Big Empty]

Yea this is our last legit chance with our big three. We're older, but we can beat anyone on any given night. The question is can we pull our shit together in time and go for one last run. I think we can. But this is it. Duncan will be going on 35 next year, Gino will probably sign elsewhere, someone is gonna throw good money at him and even if we get rid of jefferson to sign him, we'll have a 34 year old duncan, 33 year old gino and Tony Parker taking most of our cap space. Even with these three guys now, no one has confidence in them. Sooner or later we are gonna have to have a lottery season. Hopefully when that day comes we'll get another #1 draft pick!

[Mel_13]

I'm throwing this open because RJ and Dice will both effectively be expiring next year (which makes them attractive to salary cutting teams)

This is where the looming 2011 lockout and a new CBA come into play. The degree to which the salary structure will change is completely unknown, so teams with long-term, high-dollars contracts on their books will certainly be interested in acquiring RJ and Dice to reduce future obligations. For the same reason, I find it unlikely that the Spurs will take on such contracts.

On a similar note, I'm sure Tony will want to talk extension this summer, but I don't believe the Spurs will be interested in negotiating with him until the parameters of the new CBA are known.

[Shastafarian]

And?

The Pacers have some good pieces, it's not like they were playing the freaking Nets.

They were not playing a good team and struggled.

[Chomag]

So some of you are thinking that the Spurs are contenders once again after beating the Pacers? Hmm,

[Udokafan05]

Spurs win game, yet people still start threads throwing in towel for them.

[xellos88330]

They were playing a team that is 18-35 in a shit conference. It should've been a blowout even with Tim not shooting well.

It is called small ball. Spurs were up 14 before that. I would think it would be hard to play defense without anyone over 6'7" on the court.

Pop is just making it harder on the team. Maybe he is trying to get the guys mentally tough.

[EricB]

They were not playing a good team and struggled.


They struggled at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth.

When Parker Duncan came in, they played damn well just missed some shots.

Your blowing this game alot out of proportion.

[EricB]

It is called small ball. Spurs were up 14 before that. I would think it would be hard to play defense without anyone over 6'7" on the court.

Pop is just making it harder on the team. Maybe he is trying to get the guys mentally tough.


Uh the Spurs played small ball when they were up 16.

They had Danny Granger at power forward, what big would you like to guard him exactly?

[Shastafarian]

They struggled at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth.

When Parker Duncan came in, they played damn well just missed some shots.

Your blowing this game alot out of proportion.

With the lineup they have at their disposal, a game against this Pacers team should never be as close as it was. I'm not blowing anything out of proportion as this team has never shown it is capable of beating great teams. So nothing has changed.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Can we please stay on topic?


This team has all the pieces to win now. If they miss the playoffs or struggle just to sneak in and exit early, nobody should be safe.

Really? You really think that? I refer you to this guy:


So some of you are thinking that the Spurs are contenders once again after beating the Pacers? Hmm,

:lol


This is where the looming 2011 lockout and a new CBA come into play. The degree to which the salary structure will change is completely unknown, so teams with long-term, high-dollars contracts on their books will certainly be interested in acquiring RJ and Dice to reduce future obligations. For the same reason, I find it unlikely that the Spurs will take on such contracts.

On a similar note, I'm sure Tony will want to talk extension this summer, but I don't believe the Spurs will be interested in negotiating with him until the parameters of the new CBA are known.

Yup, exactly, we should be able to move RJ/Dice pretty easily after the season, or early next season.


Spurs win game, yet people still start threads throwing in towel for them.

:rolleyes

I said don't bother with the believe smack. I'm a realist, and this team just doesn't have it. I'm far more interested in the kinds of players people would like to see us rebuild with.

[ducks]

add splitter

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yes, you are right ducks, add Splitter.

So, I'd like to start with something like this:

TP/George/?
Manu/Xavier Henry/?
?/?/?
Tim/Grizzly
Splitter/Ian

If we could grab Thomas for an expiring I'd do it, which would give us a young and flexible big rotation. We badly need swings though.

[Mel_13]

Yup, exactly, we should be able to move RJ/Dice pretty easily after the season, or early next season.

You may have missed by point.

I believe that there will be ample opportunities to flip RJ/Dice for players on longer contracts.

Given the uncertainties of the new CBA, I have my doubts that they will avail themselves of those opportunities.

[EricB]

Yes, you are right ducks, add Splitter.

So, I'd like to start with something like this:

TP/George/?
Manu/Xavier Henry/?
?/?/?
Tim/Grizzly
Splitter/Ian

If we could grab Thomas for an expiring I'd do it, which would give us a young and flexible big rotation. We badly need swings though.

Who the F is Xavier Henry?

[Obstructed_View]

So some of you are thinking that the Spurs are contenders once again after beating the Pacers? Hmm,

The Spurs should have been contenders all this time. The fact that they find a way to struggle against a terrible Pacers team is their problem. They stink right now, but they can't attempt to convince anyone that they just aren't good enough to stomp the Pacers after six days off.

Oz, this team has talent. They can play defense when they want to, they can move the ball well and score on the inside when they want to, they can rebound when they want to. It's not too late for this team to establish an identity that drives them the rest of the year and makes them competetive, but the clock's ticking.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You may have missed by point.

I believe that there will be ample opportunities to flip RJ/Dice for players on longer contracts.

Given the uncertainties of the new CBA, I have my doubts that they will avail themselves of those opportunities.

Yes, I get you, you may be right. But by that logic we end up throwing away another season, because RJ is clearly not helping. Will management be willing to throw away Duncan's penultimate season?

Also, there is talk about a mechanism in the new CBA for retroactively bringing existing contracts into line with it. Sounds far-fetched, but we might see that.

[Shastafarian]

Who the F is Xavier Henry?

www.google.com

[Obstructed_View]

Really? You really think that? I refer you to this guy:



Instead of referring me to a strawman, how about you make your case? If you can't do that, then don't start a thread and ask for people's opinions. At very least you can put a caveat in your OP that you only want opinions that tell you how smart you are.

[Udokafan05]

Why not create this thread in the Spurs Think Tank Forum, since thats where all the "realist" are during the season. Just another garbage thread.

[Mel_13]

Yes, I get you, you may be right. But by that logic we end up throwing away another season, because RJ is clearly not helping. Will management be willing to throw away Duncan's penultimate season?

Also, there is talk about a mechanism in the new CBA for retroactively bringing existing contracts into line with it. Sounds far-fetched, but we might see that.

The players will use their ultimate trump card and decertify the union before they ever accept that kind of provision. The NBA needs the union.

No union, no CBA.

No CBA, no salary cap, no maximum salaries, just chaos.

Can you imagine Cuban, the Russian billionaire, Paul Allen, and the Knicks bidding on LeBron's services with no labor agreement in place to limit the size of his contract?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Who the F is Xavier Henry?

A guy who might be available at the end of the lottery - decent athlete, good 3pt shooter and passer, strong. Maybe we should try for a better athlete, but there aren't too many in that part of the draft by the looks of it. If we fall a bit lower, Quincy Poindexter might be the way to go?


The Spurs should have been contenders all this time. The fact that they find a way to struggle against a terrible Pacers team is their problem. They stink right now, but they can't attempt to convince anyone that they just aren't good enough to stomp the Pacers after six days off.

Oz, this team has talent. They can play defense when they want to, they can move the ball well and score on the inside when they want to, they can rebound when they want to. It's not too late for this team to establish an identity that drives them the rest of the year and makes them competetive, but the clock's ticking.

I admire your optimism, but I just haven't seen them do any of those things you list at an elite level for an extended period, and that is what you need to win an NBA championship. Also, when have you seen them play truly great defence? Defence that has led to 5+ stops in a row? I can't recall that once this year.

No doubt there is talent on this team, but it simply hasn't come together, and I'm afraid I don't see it magically happening for a list of reasons:
*TP's injuries;
*Manu's athletic decline;
*Dice's inexplicable decline;
*RJ ineptitude;
*George and Grizzly's youth;
*lack of a true stopper;
*lack of a true 3rd scorer.
All the indicators point to a first-round flameout, or a plucky second round loss for mine. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[ElNono]

I'm starting to suspect that the coach is Nellie with a mask. Until we figure out what's wrong with him, it doesn't matter what we do.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

The players will use their ultimate trump card and decertify the union before they ever accept that kind of provision. The NBA needs the union.

No union, no CBA.

No CBA, no salary cap, no maximum salaries, just chaos.

Can you imagine Cuban, the Russian billionaire, Paul Allen, and the Knicks bidding on LeBron's services with no labor agreement in place to limit the size of his contract?

How high do you think it's go? 60mil a season? 80? :lol

However, if it comes down to a retroactive clause for keeping BRI at 55%, maybe it happens. The players are going to have to give up quite a bit to get an agreement, and they will hurt if there isn't one because most of them don't know how to manage their money. We shall see.

[jjktkk]

Who the F is Xavier Henry?

Freshman guard that plays for the Kansas Jayhawks, Lottery talent, maybe a 1 and done guy. Highly doubt The Spurs would be able to get this guy in the draft.

[raspsa]

If Manu and RJ can step it up on a consistent basis, this Spurs team can compete.

[L.I.T]

The Spurs won in the past because their players understood the defensive system. Granted, having a one-on-one defensive player like Bowen helped; but the Spurs were always known as having one of the most tenacious team defenses. Not necessarily being stacked with one-on-one outstanding defenders - arguably, in the last few years the only one was Bowen. So, at the onset, I do not think the model the Spurs have used to win the last few years is necessarily 'dead'. It's not even a talent issue (since this team is one of their most talented and deepest on paper) it's an experience/basketball IQ/pieces issue.

As with Obstructed_View, I also do not believe that the Spurs window this year has closed completely. However, that's not necessarily what you are asking to discuss here. So...

IF the Spurs are staying pat and walk into the offseason with essentially the same roster. A core of TP/Hill/Blair/TD can be built around. I still advocate resigning Manu. Signing Splitter as well is a must. If the choice is between resigning Mahinmi and keeping Dice, I would actually consider keeping Dice. Dice as a fourth big who can come in and spell TD/Blair/Splitter to defend post players is valuable. Mahinmi, while having potential as a help defender, will likely be too light to ever be an effective post defender.

I wouldn't be surprised though if RJeff and Dice's contracts could be used in any sort of sign and trade deal during the offseason. Say what you will about the Spurs FO, they have done a good job of setting up flexible and attractive contracts.

The likelihood is that this offseason will have a lot of decent mid-tier players floating around and slipping through the cracks. Value could be there as the big cap teams chase after the top heavy superstars. I doubt Salmons will exercise his option to stay with the Bucks, so he could be a solid target in the offseason.

[Brazil]

I really don't know what the spurs need to do but, I feel bad for saying that, maybe it should be with another coach. I don't think pop is capable willing to build a new team.

On a side note I'm watching mavs / suns and I was thinking damn Haywood would have been great for the spurs and then I realized we have a similar model to develop with Ian but guess what ? he is on the bench meanwhile RJ is playing PF.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I really don't know what the spurs need to do but, I feel bad for saying that, maybe it should be with another coach. I don't think pop is capable willing to build a new team.

On a side note I'm watching mavs / suns and I was thinking damn Haywood would have been great for the spurs and then I realized we have a similar model to develop with Ian but guess what ? he is on the bench meanwhile RJ is playing PF.

Yeah, Haywood would have allowed us to go back to a stifling twin-tower defensive style. Even though he's an FA after the season I'm sure Cuban will over pay to keep him.

[rascal]

The Spurs won in the past because their players understood the defensive system. Granted, having a one-on-one defensive player like Bowen helped; but the Spurs were always known as having one of the most tenacious team defenses. Not necessarily being stacked with one-on-one outstanding defenders - arguably, in the last few years the only one was Bowen. So, at the onset, I do not think the model the Spurs have used to win the last few years is necessarily 'dead'. It's not even a talent issue (since this team is one of their most talented and deepest on paper) it's an experience/basketball IQ/pieces issue.

As with Obstructed_View, I also do not believe that the Spurs window this year has closed completely. However, that's not necessarily what you are asking to discuss here. So...

IF the Spurs are staying pat and walk into the offseason with essentially the same roster. A core of TP/Hill/Blair/TD can be built around. I still advocate resigning Manu. Signing Splitter as well is a must. If the choice is between resigning Mahinmi and keeping Dice, I would actually consider keeping Dice. Dice as a fourth big who can come in and spell TD/Blair/Splitter to defend post players is valuable. Mahinmi, while having potential as a help defender, will likely be too light to ever be an effective post defender.

I wouldn't be surprised though if RJeff and Dice's contracts could be used in any sort of sign and trade deal during the offseason. Say what you will about the Spurs FO, they have done a good job of setting up flexible and attractive contracts.

The likelihood is that this offseason will have a lot of decent mid-tier players floating around and slipping through the cracks. Value could be there as the big cap teams chase after the top heavy superstars. I doubt Salmons will exercise his option to stay with the Bucks, so he could be a solid target in the offseason.

This team will never win another title with Tim, Parker and Manu as their top 3 players.

[Brazil]

Yeah, Haywood would have allowed us to go back to a stifling twin-tower defensive style. Even though he's an FA after the season I'm sure Cuban will over pay to keep him.

absolutely no way Cuban will let him go, he is already making a difference for the mavs with his big presence in the paint, he obliges the suns to take more risks with their shots in particular nash who has been bloked by haywood near the 3 pts line. Ian is capable to do that too :depressed

[LongtimeSpursFan]

The Spurs won in the past because their players understood the defensive system. Granted, having a one-on-one defensive player like Bowen helped; but the Spurs were always known as having one of the most tenacious team defenses. Not necessarily being stacked with one-on-one outstanding defenders - arguably, in the last few years the only one was Bowen. So, at the onset, I do not think the model the Spurs have used to win the last few years is necessarily 'dead'. It's not even a talent issue (since this team is one of their most talented and deepest on paper) it's an experience/basketball IQ/pieces issue.

As with Obstructed_View, I also do not believe that the Spurs window this year has closed completely. However, that's not necessarily what you are asking to discuss here. So...

IF the Spurs are staying pat and walk into the offseason with essentially the same roster. A core of TP/Hill/Blair/TD can be built around. I still advocate resigning Manu. Signing Splitter as well is a must. If the choice is between resigning Mahinmi and keeping Dice, I would actually consider keeping Dice. Dice as a fourth big who can come in and spell TD/Blair/Splitter to defend post players is valuable. Mahinmi, while having potential as a help defender, will likely be too light to ever be an effective post defender.

I wouldn't be surprised though if RJeff and Dice's contracts could be used in any sort of sign and trade deal during the offseason. Say what you will about the Spurs FO, they have done a good job of setting up flexible and attractive contracts.

The likelihood is that this offseason will have a lot of decent mid-tier players floating around and slipping through the cracks. Value could be there as the big cap teams chase after the top heavy superstars. I doubt Salmons will exercise his option to stay with the Bucks, so he could be a solid target in the offseason.

I agree with the post 100 percent. Lets keep this team and give our best shot. In the offseason lets add Splitter and another solid free agent plus shed Finley and Ratliff and we have a great shot at contending.

[FkLA]

If Manu and RJ can step it up on a consistent basis, this Spurs team can compete.

Since Jan. 20 Manu has been averaging 16.3 ppg, 5 apg, and 4 rpg...Dice has been proving the notion that he's a second half player true as well and playing better as of late. The young guys are bringing it, and Timmy has been his old Groundhog Day self. Ultimately the X-factor is RJ, if he can up his game as well I still have hope for the team.

It might be blind homerism to expect RJ to turn it around, but still its even more ridiculous to throw in the towel and want to miss the playoffs...especially when we're still very much in the running to win the division and get a top 3 seed.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Since Jan. 20 Manu has been averaging 16.3 ppg, 5 apg, and 4 rpg...Dice has been proving the notion that he's a second half player true as well and playing better as of late. The young guys are bringing it, and Timmy has been his old Groundhog Day self. Ultimately the X-factor is RJ, if he can up his game as well I still have hope for the team.

It might be blind homerism to expect RJ to turn it around (1), but still its even more ridiculous to throw in the towel and want to miss the playoffs (2)...especially when we're still very much in the running to win the division and get a top 3 seed.

(1) Yes it is.

(2) No it isn't. This team can't beat poor teams convincingly like great teams do, nor can it consistently beat contending teams... it is homerism to consider us a contender at this point. That being said, I don't think we will miss the playoffs, but it might be better for us in the long run if we could snag a young athletic scorer with our lottery pick.

[EricB]

Ah so Ruff is asking for the Spurs to tank..


Gorgeous....

[EricB]

Are people even watching Manu play or just talking shit? Since February and the Rodeo trip started started Manu is averaging 17.2 points per game shooting 50% from the field and shooting 42.9% from the 3 point line and 4 assists per game.

The only bad thing is that is free throw % in Feb is around 75%

Yeah he's cranked it up and RJ the last couple games looks good.

get a couple more things into line and things will start looking better...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ah so Ruff is asking for the Spurs to tank..


Gorgeous....

No, actually I'm not. I just think it is a possibility that we will miss the playoffs. It's more likely that we'll make them as a low seed and get knocked out early.

[200 miles]

Because of this team's core that is getting older and Pop's man-love for over-the-hill veterans, draft picks are becoming more precious and vital to the team's future for success.

If I had to choose between keeping a 2010 1st-rounder or giving it up to get Ty Thomas, I would keep the pick. I mean we all see Blair as a 4 and Thomas is best suited as a 4. For all we know, Thomas's play would not fit with our style of play and would just end up as another Gooden on the way out, only this time we sacrificed our much needed 1st rounder in the process. Or maybe Thomas uses his size, plays the 5 and does prove to be successful. It's a large gamble.

But in keeping that draft pick, we can finally hope that the team picks a center with the best mix of athletic and defensive skills, whether it be DeMarcus Cousins, Jerome Jordan or Solomon Alabi. If this team focuses too much on a win-now mode, Pop and the FO will very likely drive this franchise into the ground for the next decade. Believe it or not, there is still some time in the Duncan era for the "Build for the future" project to make the team title contenders again.

Oh and if there was any trade involving Mason that the Spurs should pull the trigger on, it should simply be for more draft picks, preferably a 1st rounder.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It's also a possibility that can get the second seed or win the Southwest division. That is why maybe this thread is a little premature.

Well, maybe it is if you expect this team to make the leap that has happened in previous championship seasons. But I think that is highly unlikely at this point. All the signs point the other way. This hole is a lot bigger than the one we pulled out of in 2007. Back then we were still able to lock teams down, something this team utterly fails at. On the flipside, if RJ had gelled and we had become a fabulous scoring team, that might have given us reason for hope, but we're just a bit better than average on offence.

Nope, I don't think this thread is premature, and I brought it up now so that people could discuss players available at the deadline who might help us next year (like, say Antawn Jamison... although now he's gone) and beyond.

Really, unlike a lot of SPurs fans, I can see the writing on the wall (we are done as a contender without a miraculous trade that rids us of RJ and brings in both an athletic big and a bona fide scorer), so I want to see a full-blooded youth movement. People say that would be a waste of Tim's last two years, but I see it from the other side - imagine what he could instill in a bunch of youngsters over the next two years! Management could probably sell him on that too because Duncan is the kind of guy who sees the big picture.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Because of this team's core that is getting older and Pop's man-love for over-the-hill veterans, draft picks are becoming more precious and vital to the team's future for success.

If I had to choose between keeping a 2010 1st-rounder or giving it up to get Ty Thomas, I would keep the pick. I mean we all see Blair as a 4 and Thomas is best suited as a 4. For all we know, Thomas's play would not fit with our style of play and would just end up as another Gooden on the way out, only this time we sacrificed our much needed 1st rounder in the process. Or maybe Thomas uses his size, plays the 5 and does prove to be successful. It's a large gamble.

But in keeping that draft pick, we can finally hope that the team picks a center with the best mix of athletic and defensive skills, whether it be DeMarcus Cousins, Jerome Jordan or Solomon Alabi. If this team focuses too much on a win-now mode, Pop and the FO will very likely drive this franchise into the ground for the next decade. Believe it or not, there is still some time in the Duncan era for the "Build for the future" project to make the team title contenders again.

Oh and if there was any trade involving Mason that the Spurs should pull the trigger on, it should simply be for more draft picks, preferably a 1st rounder.

Nice post. :tu

As for the emboldened bit, my thoughts exactly.

[Allanon]

I forget if the LLE is annual or not.

The LLE (low level exception) is also called the bi-annual exception and cannot be used two years in a row.

I thought it was used this year to get Ratliff but somebody here told me it wasn't so it should still be available along with the MLE this summer.

[Jace]

Tim has maybe 2 years left as the center piece of a championship team(counting this year)..

He doesn't have the pieces around him this year and won't get them next year(plenty of teams are going to be in the running for the free agents).

Tim needs to be traded and he needs to be traded now...

Give him a chance to win another ring or 2 as a centerpiece while getting a jump on the rebuilt

Duncan to the Rockets for McGrady and some draft picks, make it happen for the good of all involved

[L.I.T]

This team will never win another title with Tim, Parker and Manu as their top 3 players.

I agree to a certain extent. The formerly Big 3 can still be the core of a championship team. But unlike years past the supporting cast has to be better; they can't rely on using plug-in-play specialists. It's obvious they realized this with the trade for Richard Jefferson and the signing of Dice.

Too bad that Jefferson failing to integrate, coupled with Hill/Blair becoming major components of the rotation but still being relatively inexperienced (not a critique, but it is obvious that they will be better in the system next year than this year), Dice struggling, TP injured, and Mason pulling the minutes/contract card has been too much for the team to overcome.

[Duncan2177]

Tim has maybe 2 years left as the center piece of a championship team(counting this year)..

He doesn't have the pieces around him this year and won't get them next year(plenty of teams are going to be in the running for the free agents).

Tim needs to be traded and he needs to be traded now...

Give him a chance to win another ring or 2 as a centerpiece while getting a jump on the rebuilt

Duncan to the Rockets for McGrady and some draft picks, make it happen for the good of all involved

:pimpslap

[Allanon]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

[Jace]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

Not really true, the big 3 for the Spurs just aren't the "Big 3" anymore. Duncan isn't as good as he was(still great), Manu isn't anywhere near the force of nature that he was and Tony is a very old 27 while competing with an influx of very talented young PGs

Of the teams you listed only the Lakers, Magic and maybe the Nuggets have a true "Big 3"

Cavs have 2 superstars and a bunch of good roleplayers(Shaq,Mo,Hickson, Big Z) and the Mavs have Dirk and then a bunch of good roleplayers

Celtics were trying to trade Ray Allen, Garnett is a shadow of himself and Pierce is beginning to fade

Big 3 is fine if you have a good enough Big 3 or good enough roleplayers, but the Spurs don't have either.

They have a Big 1 in Duncan and then a Fading Two in Manu/Parker supported by what exactly?

A rookie in Blair, promising PG in Hill and then a bunch of old bigs

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Well, maybe it is if you expect this team to make the leap that has happened in previous championship seasons. But I think that is highly unlikely at this point. All the signs point the other way. This hole is a lot bigger than the one we pulled out of in 2007. Back then we were still able to lock teams down, something this team utterly fails at. On the flipside, if RJ had gelled and we had become a fabulous scoring team, that might have given us reason for hope, but we're just a bit better than average on offence.

Nope, I don't think this thread is premature, and I brought it up now so that people could discuss players available at the deadline who might help us next year (like, say Antawn Jamison... although now he's gone) and beyond.

Really, unlike a lot of SPurs fans, I can see the writing on the wall (we are done as a contender without a miraculous trade that rids us of RJ and brings in both an athletic big and a bona fide scorer), so I want to see a full-blooded youth movement. People say that would be a waste of Tim's last two years, but I see it from the other side - imagine what he could instill in a bunch of youngsters over the next two years! Management could probably sell him on that too because Duncan is the kind of guy who sees the big picture.

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

[Josepatches_]

Please stop dreamin'

This year is our last chance without rebuild.

TD isnt 30.Manu isnt an all star anymore and he could go.Tony is young but his legs have a lot of miles.He never was as good to be the leader of a championship team.

Hairston? Ian? Splitter?? C'mon....we will be the same team or worse than now.That's not enough.

This team is done.Dont try to add role players.We need main stars.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

Yes, and statistics always tell the full story. :rolleyes The guy hasn't fit and that's the end of it. he hasn't stepped into the gap he was supposed to fill, namely reliable scoring.

As for you people who think that "the big 3 can still contend", a few things:

1. it was a BIG 4 that won this team the last 3 championships - Tim, Manu, Tony and BRUCE.
2. Bruce is gone and we have no-one that even approaches what he brought to the team (if we had landed Batum or Sefolosha last year, things would be a little different);
3. the "Big 3" is now a "big 2 1/2" - Manu has declined physically and is no longer the clutch scorer he was... still a very useful player, but he's not the third piece on a contender any more. RJ was meant to absorb some of that slack and has utterly failed to do so.

And now the Bobcats get Ty Thomas for Acie Law and a pick!? Sheeeeeit.

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

The only teams that legitimately have a "big 4" out of those teams are LA and Orlando..

You don't need a "big 4", you just need to build a team properly..

[EricB]

:lol @ Mo Williams considered a "big 4"

[SenorSpur]

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

[SenorSpur]

Pops needs to talk to Houston bout how to biuld for the future........guys just stole Martin, Hill and 2 first round picks for a washed up never was! Hats off to all the Rockets fans here........wish the spurs were as ballzee as the Rockets FO!

Morey was an absolute wizard in the way that he parlayed McGrady's expiring contract. He literally manipulated and screwed over the Knicks. Now, the Rockets have a stocked cupboard of assets for the future. Now that's how you work it.

[ElNono]

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

I also don't understand why you would stick with a group that admittedly is not listening to you anymore. I mean, either step down, or at least stir the pot a bit and see if you can get their attention. This deadline has been so puzzling...

[spurtech09]

spurs have the pieces to win...now add Ian to the starting line up

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

Totally. The denial is astounding. I guess it is partly generated by Tim though in that no-one wants to have that ugly conversation with him where they have to ask him to "take one for the team" and help to develop the next wave of Spurs without much hope of contending. But really, what it the other option? Continue to be stuck in a mediocre limbo while you pretend the team is still a contender? Not in my world.


Morey was an absolute wizard in the way that he parlayed McGrady's expiring contract. He literally manipulated and screwed over the Knicks. Now, the Rockets have a stocked cupboard of assets for the future. Now that's how you work it.

Absolutely. Yet we stood pat. Astounding.

[timtonymanu]

Keep TP (if he doesnt play every summer), Hill, Blair, and Malik for the future.

For now, keep Tim, Manu, Tony, Hill, Blair, and Malik.

This summer the Spurs should just rebuild. By that I mean picking up young players. Not making majority of the signings old guys.

[spurtech09]

what future....pop is going to be playing small ball intill he retires...might as well fire pop

[MaNu4Tres]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:



Spurs haven't had the "Big 3" all year.

They all decide to show up at different times of the year. I have yet to see one game where Duncan, Parker and Manu were clicking on all cylinders.

Beginning of the year Manu was struggling out of the gate because of injury, Duncan was playing lights out, Parker was inconsistent and progressively got dinged up more and more.

The start of January Manu started turning the corner. Same time Duncan started losing his mobility little by little and became less and less effective offensively. By this time Parker is playing on one leg.

As I said and I'll say it again.... It hasn't been the "Big 3" all year.

[ulosturedge]

Should have been working Mahinmi and Hairston into the system since the beginning of the season. It's obvious the team as it is right now has zero chance of winning a championship. The days where you could surround the "big 3" with role players are long over. The "big 3" need to be surrounded by all young athletic players if at all possible. Our defense was atrocious tonight. Either our vets don't have the legs to keep up, or our youth lacks the size. Something needs to change..

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Should have been working Mahinmi and Hairston into the system since the beginning of the season (1). It's obvious the team as it is right now has zero chance of winning a championship. The days where you could surround the "big 3" with role players are long over. The "big 3" need to be surrounded by all young athletic players if at all possible (2). Our defense was atrocious tonight. Either our vets don't have the legs to keep up, or our youth lacks the size. Something needs to change..

(1) I agree and said as much at the start of the season. Play the youth!

(2) Ditto. The NBA is now an athletes' league. Time we caught up with that.

[rascal]

Please stop dreamin'

This year is our last chance without rebuild.

TD isnt 30.Manu isnt an all star anymore and he could go.Tony is young but his legs have a lot of miles.He never was as good to be the leader of a championship team.

Hairston? Ian? Splitter?? C'mon....we will be the same team or worse than now.That's not enough.

This team is done.Dont try to add role players.We need main stars.

Splitter? Here we go again banking on foreign players that may not even be with the team.

This is not for you J Patches but for those banking on Splitter turning the team around next year.

[Mr Bones]

I know this won't be popular, but I'll say it anyway: as much as I love Blair's hustle and heart, I think the Spurs should entertain the idea of trading him this summer, while his reputation and value are high, to get maximum value in return. The idea behind taking him was that he probably wouldn't have a long career because of his knees, but would help immediately and possibly for a few years.... and judging by the contract he signed, I don't think he believes he'll be playing forever either. If Splitter comes next year and a Blair trade brings another quality player with good size for his position, I think that would address the obvious shortcomings (no pun intended) of this team. As much as I like the guy, I just don't think you look to the future with a 6'6" PF.

[SCdac]

I know this won't be popular, but I'll say it anyway: as much as I love Blair's hustle and heart, I think the Spurs should entertain the idea of trading him this summer, while his reputation and value are high, to get maximum value in return. The idea behind taking him was that he probably wouldn't have a long career because of his knees, but would help immediately and possibly for a few years.... and judging by the contract he signed, I don't think he believes he'll be playing forever either. If Splitter comes next year and a Blair trade brings another quality player with good size for his position, I think that would address the obvious shortcomings (no pun intended) of this team. As much as I like the guy, I just don't think you look to the future with a 6'6" PF.

Change that "PF" in the last sentence to "C", and I completely agree with you. He can be the lone big for 2-3 minutes, but if the Spurs intend on Blair being a full-blown center, in a small ball oriented lineup (see: SAS vs. LAL when late in the game Gasol grabs multiple offensive boards against a Blair, Jefferson, and Finley frontcourt), then I actually wouldn't be opposed to "selling him high" and getting a franchise player out of him (not Amare). However, I do think and hope Blair has a semi-permanent place on this team as a power forward, like say Milsap alongside Boozer and Okur, or Rose alongside Duncan and Robinson. He's undersized, but playing against other PF's, he's height isn't as exposed, and his athleticism isn't below-average (he got a steal, ran the floor, and busted out a reverse layup in Philly)... What about his contract suggests our FO fully expects him to have a short career? I thought his contract was comparable to a late first-rounders. Taj Gibson seems to make only 200K more per this year and next, with team options for the next two like Blair's contract. Jon Brockman the 38th pick is making less than 500K on a one-year contract in Sacramento. I think the FO definitely addressed the "steal" we got in Blair and tied him up accordingly (getting some of the MLE money).

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Last two posts both make good points.

I was hoping for people to throw up a bunch of young, promising fringe pkayers that we should be targetting for our rebuild. Ideas anyone?

[The Truth #6]

Well it was a good run. I don't think Pop is planning on tanking 'till the end of the season. The team is still sort of trying but they have no chemistry and everyone looks tired. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs if we continue to play like we have the last 2 games.

As for facing facts and rebuilding, I don't think they're going to change anything until the Summer, and probably not then either. They're probably focused on what offer to make to Manu - not what direction should we go next. If Tony plays for the NT, then they should trade him but I doubt we'll trade him but I don't doubt he'll play for the NT.

Basically I see more denial ahead. The elephant in the room is, as others have mentioned, no one wants to tell Tim that the window has closed. Nor does Pop want to admit it. He'll probably ride the Big 3 into his retirement. At least that's my guess.

[venitian navigator]

Next season could be the "sell everything" season for more than one reason :

1) Timmy will be 35 with another two years of contract, the last being 20 million dollars;
2) Parker playing for his national team in summer;
3) Manu one year older but comung after a more than decent year that proved he's still healthy enough to contribute for a contender, and with the last chance to be traded, better sign and traded, for the best of Spurs;
4) Jefferson expiring contract and Mc Dyess quasi-expiring contract;
5) we will have no young asset with decent nba experience except for Hill (possibly for a starting role) and Blair (necessarrly for a reserve role for all his career)...and little young asset at all.....apart our first and second draft choice, Hairston (they could finally decide to give him a real chance and he's already under contract) and maybe Splitter (if he decides to sign with us) and maybe maybe Mahinmi (if the real plan was to hide him considering his potential to sign him to a contract a la Blair...).

The only point will be to ask to Timmy if he prefer to be a Spurs for life and be the menthor for the re-building of the team (a thing that would be only beneficial for his career) or wants to be traded to another team, possibly a future contender...

[TJastal]

Next season could be the "sell everything" season for more than one reason :

1) Timmy will be 35 with another two years of contract, the last being 20 million dollars;
2) Parker playing for his national team in summer;
3) Manu one year older but comung after a more than decent year that proved he's still healthy enough to contribute for a contender, and with the last chance to be traded, better sign and traded, for the best of Spurs;
4) Jefferson expiring contract and Mc Dyess quasi-expiring contract;
5) we will have no young asset with decent nba experience except for Hill (possibly for a starting role) and Blair (necessarrly for a reserve role for all his career)...and little young asset at all.....apart our first and second draft choice, Hairston (they could finally decide to give him a real chance and he's already under contract) and maybe Splitter (if he decides to sign with us) and maybe maybe Mahinmi (if the real plan was to hide him considering his potential to sign him to a contract a la Blair...).

The only point will be to ask to Timmy if he prefer to be a Spurs for life and be the menthor for the re-building of the team (a thing that would be only beneficial for his career) or wants to be traded to another team, possibly a future contender...

I think Timmy would still be hugely valuable and productive for another 3-4years in the right situation. He is slowing down considerably (and never was that fast to begin with) but still uses smarts and that long lean, tough body to rebound but his shotblocking and presence around the rim is in rapid decline.

Tyrus Thomas was the perfect big man to pair up and help shore his weaknesses with, and the spurs let him slip through their fingers. Dumping Ratliff was just the icing on the cake of stupidity.


that is smart enough to put the right type of players around him. Which would be young athletic types like Tyrus Thomas or

[hsxvvd]

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

Very few teams have a big 4. All the above are questionable.

Tim and Tony are our big 2. Manu, Dick are a long step from them.

No different to the Jazz with DWill and Boozer, Roy and Aldridge on the Blazers, Bosh & Turkey glue.

The only difference is our experience might get us over the hump, Manu, RJ, Hill, Blair, McDyess are all capable of turning it on in the playoffs.

But so too could Okur or Kirilenko, Camby or Miller, Bargnani or Calderon.

[MaNu4Tres]

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[BackHome]

The last two games you can start seeing the players understand that they are not even close to winning a ring. The rotations still suck and players are playing scarred out their and offense and defense pretty much sucks. I can gurantee that it will be getting worse as the season goes on!

We don't have the talent nor do we have the chemistry to get beyond the first round. I think a big deal would be for us JUST to get to the first round and not get sweeped. You are going to see major changes this summer the type of rebuilding years most teams go through.

Timmy - Stays
Tony - Will go if we get good return
Manu - Will go if we get good return
Hill - Stay because he is cheap
Blair - Stay because he is cheap
Mason - Gone---Would be nice to get something for him..2nd rounder
Bonner - Same as Mason
Finley - Gone
Bognas - Gone
RJ - Last year of conract should get something good from him

No more freaking old guys start investing in some first round picks

[exstatic]

This team has all the pieces to win now. If they miss the playoffs or struggle just to sneak in and exit early, nobody should be safe.

Uh, no they don't. Maybe if Parker were 100% they could make some noise, but he's sucking, Manu's sucking, and there's nobody on the bench to become the classic Tony or the classic Manu.

[exstatic]

This is where the looming 2011 lockout and a new CBA come into play. The degree to which the salary structure will change is completely unknown, so teams with long-term, high-dollars contracts on their books will certainly be interested in acquiring RJ and Dice to reduce future obligations. For the same reason, I find it unlikely that the Spurs will take on such contracts.

On a similar note, I'm sure Tony will want to talk extension this summer, but I don't believe the Spurs will be interested in negotiating with him until the parameters of the new CBA are known.

Yeah, Mr. I must play for the French NT, no matter what isn't getting any extension this summer.

[TD 21]

My guess for next year's team...

Returning: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Jefferson, McDyess, Hill, Blair, Hairston

Acquired: Splitter, Bell, Cook, Almond, 3rd PG (Pargo, Arroyo, Diener, maybe MacIntyre, an overseas player Spurs were rumored to be interested in last summer, etc.), 1st round pick (probably an SF or a combo forward; haven't yet delved into the names likely to be available around the twentieth pick).

[Spurminator]

So, it's pretty clear that we aren't going anywhere this year - this team simply hasn't gelled, nor does it have an identity. During the championship years our identity was based on defence first and foremost - we would win games by simply stopping the opponent from scoring for long stretches of the game, usually due to Bruce's ability to lock down elite scorers, and Tim/Rob's incredible help defence. That model is dead.

Bring back the model and our chances improve dramatically. This team doesn't have an identity because we're trying out too many different identities. Watching this team is like shopping for clothes with a 14 year old girl.

[diego]

records aside, the logic of missing the playoffs made a lot more sense last year, it was a better draft and it was clearer that they were done. and they didnt do it. this year, with the money at stake, less likely, but I think pop wouldnt allow that mentality and I agree. you play with what you got. If they miss the playoffs it will be because they werent good enough, not because pop wanted a draft pick

looking forward, regardless of that draft pick, yes they need to reboot. maybe it will allow pop to build a team instead of flailing wildly for contender status.

[TD 21]

I hope that the front office can ship out Jefferson for what they acquired him for: partially guaranteed contracts, so that the Spurs can immediately waive them and have cap space to not just re-sign Ginobili and sign Splitter, but to add a quality piece or two beyond that. But I know that's unlikely to say the least, so unfortunately he'll more than likely be back, but other than him only: Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, McDyess, Hill, Blair and Hairston should be back. I'd say Mahinmi too, but what's the point? If they're not playing him now, then they're for sure not going to if Splitter is on the team. The rest of these guys all need to go.

I like Mason, but this team needs to get bigger, younger and more athletic on the wings and he possesses none of those things. Unless some athletic, shot blocking big man falls into their laps, the focus at the draft should be to draft an athletic SF, with stopper potential. If not a true SF, then an SF/PF, something the Spurs haven't had in years.

Assuming Ginobili is re-signed, between him, Hill, Hairston and potentially Bell, for at least next season, SG shouldn't be an issue. SF is another story and the Spurs need to stop acting as if if someone can play SG, then that means they can automatically play SF.

[FeZZy]

2016 second rounder..cant wait