I am SO tired of the Bonner hating...

[chazley]

I honestly think that people don't understand how good Bonner is on this Spurs team. I know I'm in the 5% minority that likes Bonner and thinks he is a KEY chip to us winning a ring, and the numbers do not lie. When he starts, he is our best 3-point shooter, and most consistent 4-man. You know exactly what you're getting with Matt: Solid defense in the post and poor defense against quick 4s, exceptional 3-point shooting (not as of late but it will come around). He also is a great pick-setter (he needs to work on his midrange game so he can pick and pop, cause he definitely can't roll) which is VERY underrated. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The 4/5 spot is NOT what is wrong with this Spurs team. It's 2 things: Our piss-poor perimeter D, and total lack of chemistry.

You can go there and check it out for yourself, but according to 82games.com, Bonner has been out 3rd best player this season, behind Manu and Tim. Not only that, but for his adjusted +/- per 48 minutes, he has been 4 points better THAN ANY OTHER SPUR!!!

I know everyone has banded together and hates Bonner, but he has done very good for us. I also know that everyone thinks Pop is a dumbass. It's actually quite the opposite, the fans are the dumbasses because he has been a genius with his lineups. He knows what is most effective for us, and personally the only thing I would change would be to give Bogans no more than 10 minutes a game in a specialty role and let Parker/Hill/RJ start.

With Bonner and McDyess, we have two above average PF who can both start depending on the opponent and they have both been very underrated this season. The funny thing is, I think our team will be the second best team in the playoffs if RJ can give us just a little bit more and we stay healthy. I honestly think we would win 4 games against any East playoff team, but we match up so terribly against the Lakers (Pau/Kobe specifically), I don't see us having a chance whenever we meet them, be it in the 2nd round or WCF.

Go ahead and flame me boys.

[SenorSpur]

If I had never watched a Spurs regular season game for the past two seasons, and only tuned in for the playoffs (vs Fakers in '08; vs Mav in '09), I would've seen all I need to see regarding Bonner. In him, I saw a player who has virtually only one skill - shooting. A player who came up small, despite having numerous open looks on the perimeter. A player who contributed virtually nothing for a team fighting for its playoff life.

Bonner is a regular season shooter - not a playoff performer. The trouble is that since his unfortunate injury, he's not even doing that well now.
That said, I don't give a shit about what Bonner does during the regular season. I don't want him in my starting lineup.

If Pop wants to see him start, perhaps he should've traded him to Golden State.

[ElNono]

We don't hate Bonner... we hate his coach that puts him in a position to fail.

You forgot to point out that Matt also writes great sandwich reviews...

[jermaine]

I honestly think that people don't understand how good Bonner is on this Spurs team. I know I'm in the 5% minority that likes Bonner and thinks he is a KEY chip to us winning a ring, but the numbers do not lie. When he starts, he is our best 3-point shooter, and most consistent 4-man. You know exactly what you're getting with Matt: Solid defense in the post and poor defense against quick 4s, exceptional 3-point shooting (not as of late but it will come around). He also is a great pick-setter which is VERY underrated. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The 4/5 spot is NOT what is wrong with this Spurs team. It's 2 things: Our piss-poor perimeter D, and total lack of chemistry.

Here is a very telling chart from 82games.com:

lick on the player's name for in-depth statistics.

Production On Court/Off Court Simple Player Min Own Opp Net On Off Net Rating Duncan (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS13.HTM) 63% 29.8 18.2 +11.6 +7.1 +0.5 +6.6 +9.6 Ginobili (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS4.HTM) 50% 22.1 12.3 +9.8 +7.5 +1.8 +5.6 +8.1 Bonner (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS10.HTM) 24% 17.1 15.0 +2.0 +11.1 +2.6 +8.6 +4.6 Parker (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS1.HTM) 56% 19.2 15.9 +3.3 +6.5 +2.3 +4.2 +3.6 Haislip (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS9.HTM) 2% 17.4 10.9 +6.5 -5.5 +4.9 -10.3 -0.2 Mason (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS3.HTM) 39% 13.4 14.3 -0.9 +3.5 +5.4 -1.9 -1.3 Blair (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS12.HTM) 38% 19.9 20.0 -0.2 +2.8 +5.8 -3.0 -1.3 Hill (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS2.HTM) 55% 15.4 15.7 -0.3 +3.1 +6.6 -3.6 -1.6 McDyess (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS11.HTM) 41% 14.9 20.2 -5.3 +6.6 +3.3 +3.3 -1.9 Jefferson (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS8.HTM) 64% 13.5 16.4 -2.9 +3.7 +6.4 -2.8 -2.8 Finley (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS7.HTM) 15% 8.9 13.3 -4.4 +4.2 +4.7 -0.5 -2.9 Bogans (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS6.HTM) 40% 9.6 13.2 -3.6 +1.7 +6.7 -5.0 -4.1 Hairston (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS5.HTM) 3% 6.8 14.5 -7.6 -13.1 +5.2 -18.3 -11.9 Ratliff (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS14.HTM) 7% 8.8 16.5 -7.7 -13.7 +6.1 -19.8 -12.6 Mahinmi (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS15.HTM) 2% 19.2 39.0 -19.7 -11.5 +5.0 -16.4 -18.4


I know everyone has banded together and hates Bonner, but he has done very good for us.

People just want change so he's the odd man out! I love Bonner myself, just off the bench!

[ffadicted]

Matt Bonner is an NBA bench player... there are no if ands or buts about it

[SpursChampsIII]

I am SO tired of Bonner.

[chazley]

edited my first post, make sure to re-read it if you didnt already

[Cane]

Bonner only played 12 minutes last night, I've got no problem with small minutes even if it means he's a "starter". He also has the most corporate knowledge and seems to be the most consistent of our secondary bigs particularly when it comes to defense.

By extending an opposing big to the three it can potentially create a lot of good stuff for the Spurs and save Duncan from having to deal with help-defense from whoever is on Bonner.

I am not a fan of Bonner but he does seem to start out the gate better than McDyess and Blair.

The starting lineup should ultimately be dependent on matchups against the opposing team.

[Chomag]

He is what he is. The thing is Spurs try to use him more then what he is.

[ElNono]

TPark, you forgot to log out from your troll...

[Obstructed_View]

Few people have spent more time on this message board defending Matt Bonner than I have, so I hope this statement has some weight when it's coming from me:

Matt Bonner is not a starter. Matt Bonner is a role player who gets spot minutes to shoot threes and defend backup bigs. He's not a shot-blocker. He's not a shot-intimidator. When put in there against starting caliber NBA bigs he's a weakness to exploit. His scoring CANNOT in any universe make up for that. Bonner, even when his shot is on, is the fourth best big on this team, and that's only because Pop refuses to play Mahinmi and Ratliff. He's a good solid backup player being put in a position to fail by the coach.

I understood Matt's starting at the beginning of the season because the other bigs hadn't learned the defense yet. It's February 18. No excuse to have him in the starting lineup unless you want to go big and make him a small forward, which could hardly be more disastrous than the current starting lineups being trotted out by our genius coach.

[Dice]

I've watched every game and can't see where anyone could show me Bonner playing solid post defense. And he doesn't box out on rebounds; offensive or defensive. He's a soft 4 and would be great off anyone's bench. But he's not starter material.

[dastrey]

Bonner is a good bench player. It seems people like to hate on him for only being a great shooter and not much of a defender. The same can be said for Roger Mason, yet he is well liked around here.

[chazley]

+/- numbers do not lie. We are significantly better when he is playing.

[Obstructed_View]

I've watched every game and can't see where anyone could show me Bonner playing solid post defense. And he doesn't box out on rebounds; offensive or defensive. He's a soft 4 and would be great off anyone's bench. But he's not starter material.

Bonner plays excellent individual post defense - positionally. He keeps the guy in front of him and has a hand up when he shoots. That's about all you can expect of a backup. Bonner's better as an energy guy coming off the bench anyway, and always has been.

[Dice]

Bonner plays excellent individual post defense - positionally. He keeps the guy in front of him and has a hand up when he shoots. That's about all you can expect of a backup. Bonner's better as an energy guy coming off the bench anyway, and always has been.

I seem to recall him always shuffling his feet backwards with said opponent then drawing the foul while shooting over him. Bonner then turns to ref showing him arms extended straight up but then drops them to his sides, palms up mystified by the call.

[SenorSpur]

+/- numbers do not lie. We are significantly better when he is playing.

There are lies. Damn lies and statistics. Plus-minus numbers be damned. It's about productivity. For me, I know what I see on the court. Bonner is a woefully-flawed, one trick pony, who is a sever defenisve liability. He doesn't defend, rebound or block shots well and when played extensive minutes against NBA starters, becomes badly exposed. He has one trick and one trick only - shooting. When not doing that well, he doesn't belong on the floor at all.

The mere fact that Pop has decided to force fit him back into the starting lineup is another example of Pop prefering the conservative, low-skilled player with a limited skillset over the more highly-skilled, younger, productive player that has more potential and upside. Of course, that would mean living with their occasional risks of commission - which he obviously isn't willing to do either.

[JR3]

+/- numbers do not lie. We are significantly better when he is playing.

+/- numbers don't lie.. but they don't tell the whole story. Some would say that is lieing.

[Big P]

You think he's the "key" to us winning a ring?? ummm...sorry...he's not

[ElNono]

+/- numbers do not lie. We are significantly better when he is playing.

What's a lie is to use +/- to gauge individual production. As somebody else said, Durant ended last season with a terrible +/-... Is he a bad player?

I guess PER numbers lie, or 3 point shooting % since coming back from his injury, or his career rebounding average, or our freaking team record.

I'll take Matt on a limited role coming from the bench. And that's about it.

[Obstructed_View]

I seem to recall him always shuffling his feet backwards with said opponent then drawing the foul while shooting over him. Bonner then turns to ref showing him arms extended straight up but then drops them to his sides, palms up mystified by the call.

That doesn't really disagree with what I said about him. He keeps the guy in front of him, even while giving up position. Actually, if Popovich didn't believe more in avoiding fouls than he does in playing defense, Bonner might be a useful defender in the NBA. Bonner hasn't had to look over his shoulder to the bench after a mistake lately, and I'm sure he's not going to screw that up by committing aggressive fouls.

[chazley]

Don't tell the whole story... incorrect. Adjusted plus/minus numbers are the biggest factor in determining how well a person is playing, as it takes into account the dirty work that players do to win games. His pick and pop with Tony where he goes to that 3-point line is one of the most effective plays we have. This is how Tony was so dominant last year: Bonner. Last year, Tony would annihilate bigs who would switch off Bonner on the pick-and-pop with Bonner, and Bonner was shooting near 50% on 3s cause he always had a PG switch onto him. This year is no different. You guys don't understand how dominant the adjusted plus/minus is for Matt Bonner. 11 points would put him among the top echelon of NBA players.

You might say, Matt Bonner is not a superstar therefore those numbers are garbage. Bottom line, Bonner is such an excellent fit for this system on the offensive end because his skills make everyone elses game SO much easier, and it covers up some of his defensive woes against quick bigs. He is a very underrated post defender and Spurs fans do not give him nearly enough credit.

I also might be the only one who thinks Blair needs to get less minutes. Blair should be our 4th big. His defense is so far below Antonio and Matt Bonners, and he's not very gifted offensively. Spurs fans have fallen in love with him, and his rebounding is unbelievably impressive, but it is the only thing that he does above average. Duncan just had 26 rebounds against Indiana, rebounding is not a need for the Spurs.

[ElNono]

That doesn't really disagree with what I said about him. He keeps the guy in front of him, even while giving up position. Actually, if Popovich didn't believe more in avoiding fouls than he does in playing defense, Bonner might be a useful defender in the NBA. Bonner hasn't had to look over his shoulder to the bench after a mistake lately, and I'm sure he's not going to screw that up by committing aggressive fouls.

You would think that at this point in his career he would know how to flop or take a charge...

[SenorSpur]

Don't tell the whole story... incorrect. Adjusted plus/minus numbers are the biggest factor in determining how well a person is playing, as it takes into account the dirty work that players do to win games. His pick and pop with Tony where he goes to that 3-point line is one of the most effective plays we have. This is how Tony was so dominant last year: Bonner. Last year, Tony would annihilate bigs who would switch off Bonner on the pick-and-pop with Bonner, and Bonner was shooting near 50% on 3s cause he always had a PG switch onto him. This year is no different. You guys don't understand how dominant the adjusted plus/minus is for Matt Bonner. 11 points would put him among the top echelon of NBA players.

You might say, Matt Bonner is not a superstar therefore those numbers are garbage. Bottom line, Bonner is such an excellent fit for this system on the offensive end because his skills make everyone elses game SO much easier, and it covers up some of his defensive woes against quick bigs. He is a very underrated post defender and Spurs fans do not give him nearly enough credit.

I also might be the only one who thinks Blair needs to get less minutes. Blair should be our 4th big. His defense is so far below Antonio and Matt Bonners, and he's not very gifted offensively. Spurs fans have fallen in love with him, and his rebounding is unbelievably impressive, but it is the only thing that he does above average. Duncan just had 26 rebounds against Indiana, rebounding is not a need for the Spurs.

You probably are. Right there, you just sullied your points and lost any credibility you may have had with your argument. :p:

[Obstructed_View]

You would think that at this point in his career he would know how to flop or take a charge...

Or to deliver a hard foul. He's a tough kid. The only person in the building at an NBA game he's afraid of is the one with the power to sit him on the bench for six months.

[ElNono]

Don't tell the whole story... incorrect. Adjusted plus/minus numbers are the biggest factor in determining how well a person is playing

This tells me you know very little about statistics.


Duncan just had 26 rebounds against Indiana, rebounding is not a need for the Spurs.

And this tells me you're simply unrealistic. Duncan averages 11 rebounds. 26 rebounds is an anomaly, very far from the norm. Considering one of the major defensive problems with this team has been second chance points, rebounding is single handedly one of the priorities.

[benefactor]

We don't hate Bonner... we hate his coach that puts him in a position to fail.

We have a winner.

[z0sa]

Even Timvp considers Bonner the second best bigman defensively on this team (not potentially, but currently), and still the haters call him a 'severe defensive liability.'

A large portion of spurfan just doesn't know basketball

[ohmwrecker]

If you are tired of the Bonner hating now, you should be near dead from exhaustion by season's end.

[ElNono]

Or to deliver a hard foul. He's a tough kid. The only person in the building at an NBA game he's afraid of is the one with the power to sit him on the bench for six months.

I love his hustle. We just all know what his limitations are, except Pop I guess...

[Sobe_Kucks]

People just want change so he's the odd man out! I love Bonner myself, just off the bench!

+1 I think much of the commotion is about him starting, not him as a complete player. Off the bench against their number 2 he's very servicable and completes a nice bench. He's limited, we know that. But Pop continues to overvalue his game. It aint' Bonner's fault Pop thinks he's a starter. And yes he has some great sandwich reviews too!

[chazley]

This tells me you know very little about statistics.



And this tells me you're simply unrealistic. Duncan averages 11 rebounds. 26 rebounds is an anomaly, very far from the norm. Considering one of the major defensive problems with this team has been second chance points, rebounding is single handedly one of the priorities.

This tells me how uninformed you are.

We are 9th in the league in rebounding, while contenders like Cleveland (14th) and Boston (29th) and the Nuggets (18th) are all below us. Duncan is our main rebounder, and if our problem has been second chance points, that indicates our whole team is having a problem boxing out and doesn't have so much to do with our rebounding deficiencies.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm pretty much a 100% with O_V on this one..

I've defended Bonner in a lot of threads, especially since so many people shit on him, but he simply is NOT a starter on an NBA team, let alone a team that wants to compete with the best..he's a SOLID bench player, but he's NOT a starter under any circumstance..

Bonner coming off the bench was going great for us before his injury..he didn't have to guard any important players, and he continued to make his shots at a high level..

[Fabbs]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/06/Crocker1.JPG
leave Bonner alone!

[Sobe_Kucks]

Wait... Balir doesn't have a knack for scoring? I guess the rapport he and Manu have built hasn't led to any scoring, only rebounding? Dude has a knack to make things happen around the basket period (rebounding and scoring). You must not have been paying attention. So far he's got a 20/20 and in very good company for rooks who have done that. Letting him plya without his training wheels in the Rookie Sophmore game the MVP named him co-MVP. Says a lot more about a player than him being a rebounding force only.

[chazley]

going to have lunch with sister at bush middle school, hopefully there will be a trade deadline deal for a defensive wing. luc richard for mason one time!!!

[Mel_13]

If I had never watched a Spurs regular season game for the past two seasons, and only tuned in for the playoffs (vs Fakers in '08; vs Mav in '09), I would've seen all I need to see regarding Bonner.

Just a minor point, but you're one of the posters I make sure to read and I've seen you post something this several times.

Whatever recollection you have of Bonner from before last season, it couldn't have been from the Laker series.

In that series:

Game 1- not in uniform
Game 2- not in uniform
Game 3- 3 minutes in garbage time
Game 4- DNP-CD
Game 5- DNP-CD

[SenorSpur]

Just a minor point, but you're one of the posters I make sure to read and I've seen you post something this several times.

Whatever recollection you have of Bonner from before last season, it couldn't have been from the Laker series.

In that series:

Game 1- not in uniform
Game 2- not in uniform
Game 3- 3 minutes in garbage time
Game 4- DNP-CD
Game 5- DNP-CD

Perhaps I'm thinking of the regular season games versus the Fakers in '08. One recollection I have of him Bonner is very clear: he came up small versus the Fakers in several games against them that year. I recall one marquee reqular season game in the Staples Center. Of course, Manu was out. However, Phil Jackson geared his entire defense toward shutting TP out of the paint. Thereby choosing to leave Bonner open on the perimeter. Bonner had many, numerous open looks in that game, as the Fakers practically dared him to keep shooting. He failed miserably.

Where was he against the Mavs in the playoffs of '09?

[Mr. Body]

I honestly think that people don't understand how good Bonner is on this Spurs team. I know I'm in the 5% minority that likes Bonner and thinks he is a KEY chip to us winning a ring, and the numbers do not lie. When he starts, he is our best 3-point shooter, and most consistent 4-man. You know exactly what you're getting with Matt: Solid defense in the post and poor defense against quick 4s, exceptional 3-point shooting (not as of late but it will come around). He also is a great pick-setter (he needs to work on his midrange game so he can pick and pop, cause he definitely can't roll) which is VERY underrated. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The 4/5 spot is NOT what is wrong with this Spurs team. It's 2 things: Our piss-poor perimeter D, and total lack of chemistry.

You can go there and check it out for yourself, but according to 82games.com, Bonner has been out 3rd best player this season, behind Manu and Tim. Not only that, but for his adjusted +/- per 48 minutes, he has been 4 points better THAN ANY OTHER SPUR!!!

I know everyone has banded together and hates Bonner, but he has done very good for us. I also know that everyone thinks Pop is a dumbass. It's actually quite the opposite, the fans are the dumbasses because he has been a genius with his lineups. He knows what is most effective for us, and personally the only thing I would change would be to give Bogans no more than 10 minutes a game in a specialty role and let Parker/Hill/RJ start.

With Bonner and McDyess, we have two above average PF who can both start depending on the opponent and they have both been very underrated this season. The funny thing is, I think our team will be the second best team in the playoffs if RJ can give us just a little bit more and we stay healthy. I honestly think we would win 4 games against any East playoff team, but we match up so terribly against the Lakers (Pau/Kobe specifically), I don't see us having a chance whenever we meet them, be it in the 2nd round or WCF.

Go ahead and flame me boys.

This is great satire.

[ElNono]

This tells me how uninformed you are.

We are 9th in the league in rebounding, while contenders like Cleveland (14th) and Boston (29th) and the Nuggets (18th) are all below us. Duncan is our main rebounder, and if our problem has been second chance points, that indicates our whole team is having a problem boxing out and doesn't have so much to do with our rebounding deficiencies.

The reason we've been rebounding fairly well is BECAUSE we've not played a 3 rebound per game career average player. Exactly why I don't want to see him out there starting, or playing more than 10 or so minutes, unless he's shooting lights out. And that he's just as bad as the rest of the team boxing out is no excuse: It's still bad.

But again, I don't blame Matt for it. We know who he is and what he can give you. The problem is on Pop for putting him on a position to fail.

[Mel_13]

Perhaps I'm thinking of the regular season games versus the Fakers in '08. One recollection I have of him Bonner is very clear: he came up small versus the Fakers in several games against them that year. I recall one marquee reqular season game in the Staples Center. Of course, Manu was out. However, Phil Jackson geared his entire defense toward shutting TP out of the paint. Thereby choosing to leave Bonner open on the perimeter. Bonner had many, numerous open looks in that game, as the Fakers practically dared him to keep shooting. He failed miserably.

Where was he against the Mavs in the playoffs of '09?

Not defending Bonner.

Just getting the facts in order.

[SenorSpur]

Not defending Bonner.

Just getting the facts in order.

Understand. And I appreciate the fact-check and the back-handed compliment. :lol

[Dice]

That doesn't really disagree with what I said about him. He keeps the guy in front of him, even while giving up position. Actually, if Popovich didn't believe more in avoiding fouls than he does in playing defense, Bonner might be a useful defender in the NBA. Bonner hasn't had to look over his shoulder to the bench after a mistake lately, and I'm sure he's not going to screw that up by committing aggressive fouls.

Staying in front or not, he's not getting stops.

[Chomag]

Bonner has more defensive awareness than most of the Spurs and he was about to be as good as Larry Bird before he broke his hand.

ummm, ya I'll just keep to myself here on this one....

[Spursmania]

:cry

[Spursmania]

We don't hate Bonner... we hate his coach that puts him in a position to fail.
Yes


Matt Bonner is an NBA bench player... there are no if ands or buts about it Yes


He is what he is. The thing is Spurs try to use him more then what he is. Yes





Bonner has more defensive awareness than most of the Spurs and he was about to be as good as Larry Bird before he broke his hand.
Uhh... Big No:nope:lmao

[nkdlunch]

You can go there and check it out for yourself, but according to 82games.com, Bonner has been out 3rd best player this season,

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Good God. What sad state some people are on

[chazley]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Good God. What sad state some people are on

Tony is a better basketball player than Bonner, but the Spurs have a better average scoring margin when Matt is in the game. It is fact, and cannot be disputed.

[SCdac]

Fact: In our last championship season, Bonner never started a game and didn't even play in the Finals (2.8 MPG in playoffs).

Fact: In 134 total playoff minutes, Matt Bonner has blocked 2 shots.

Fact: In Bonner's last season, most minutes played and starts ever, he finishes #188 in blocks per game.

Fact: Spurs are 10-6 this season without Bonner

Fact: The team that drafted Bonner didn't feel a need to retain him.

[chazley]

Fact: In our last championship season, Bonner never started a game and didn't even play in the Finals (2.8 MPG in playoffs).

Fact: In 134 total playoff minutes, Matt Bonner has blocked 2 shots.

Fact: In Bonner's last season, most minutes played and starts ever, he finishes #188 in blocks per game.

Fact: Spurs are 10-6 this season without Bonner

Fact: The team that drafted Bonner didn't feel a need to retain him.

Fact: Bonner isn't in the game to be a shot blocker

Fact: We had a guy named Robert Horry, a stretch four who could hit 3s and play solid post defense which is just what Bonner gives us now

Fact: Bonner has the best adjusted +/- on our team

Fact: The team that drafted Kobe didn't feel the need to retain him

Fact: Bonner is an excellent fit in our system and we can win a championship with him starting at the 4/5 with Duncan next to him

Fact: We can win a championship without 2 shot blockers on the floor at same time

Fact: Our biggest need is a defensive wing

[Cane]

Like it or not, when Bonner's on the court the Spurs do well:


Matt Bonner, on the other hand, remains an adjusted plus/minus champ. At this point, it’s impossible to deny his usefulness to the Spurs. There he is again, popping up in two of San Antonio’s best five court combinations. If the Spurs move his expiring contract before deadline, they could feel the loss.

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2010/02/17/notes-from-wayne-winston-part-1/

[SCdac]

Fact: Bonner isn't in the game to be a shot blocker

Fact: We had a guy named Robert Horry, a stretch four who could hit 3s and play solid post defense which is just what Bonner gives us now

Fact: Bonner has the best adjusted +/- on our team

Fact: The team that drafted Kobe didn't feel the need to retain him

Fact: Bonner is an excellent fit in our system and we can win a championship with him starting at the 4/5 with Duncan next to him

Fact: We can win a championship without 2 shot blockers on the floor at same time

Fact: Our biggest need is a defensive wing

Not many of those are facts, but rather opinions... (edit: I thought you compared him to Bird, that was somebody else)...

How many teams has Kobe stepped on the court to play for?... please, it's all semantics... the bottom line is the craptors didn't even think Bonner was worth keeping around.

And don't compare Bonner to Horry... Horry was a much much better player, and actually had a set of balls... Per 36-minutes Horry was getting 1.7 steals and 1.5 blocks per game in his best season with us. In the 05 playoffs, Horry blocked 20 shots in 23 games, and was a clutch, tough, player to boot. That's almost as many blocks that Bonner had in his entire season last year (81 games).... These players are simply not comparable, other than having three-point range.

[slayermin]

I like Bonner. I always have. He's a team player who hustles and shoots the three. I want him to succeed. When he plays the four spot, it's small ball without the small. He opens up lanes for the slashers better than any of our other bigs.

[nkdlunch]

Tony is a better basketball player than Bonner, but the Spurs have a better average scoring margin when Matt is in the game. It is fact, and cannot be disputed.

that is because the opposing team is raping us on defense when Bonner is on the floor.

[jjktkk]

"highly-skilled, younger, productive player that has more potential and upside."

You mean the Spurs made a trade?

[rayray2k8]

Few people have spent more time on this message board defending Matt Bonner than I have, so I hope this statement has some weight when it's coming from me:

Matt Bonner is not a starter. Matt Bonner is a role player who gets spot minutes to shoot threes and defend backup bigs. He's not a shot-blocker. He's not a shot-intimidator. When put in there against starting caliber NBA bigs he's a weakness to exploit. His scoring CANNOT in any universe make up for that. Bonner, even when his shot is on, is the fourth best big on this team, and that's only because Pop refuses to play Mahinmi and Ratliff. He's a good solid backup player being put in a position to fail by the coach.

I understood Matt's starting at the beginning of the season because the other bigs hadn't learned the defense yet. It's February 18. No excuse to have him in the starting lineup unless you want to go big and make him a small forward, which could hardly be more disastrous than the current starting lineups being trotted out by our genius coach.

I've been one of the biggest haters so I'll say this...
I agree..

At this point it doesnt matter to me any more since l kinda want him to play more so that we can get a higher draft pick.
So shot away red rocket! Shot us out of the playoffs.:lmao

Bonners expiring contract will be valuable in the offseason.

[Obstructed_View]

Staying in front or not, he's not getting stops.

Getting stops is the job of the starting center, not of a three point shooting role-player. Besides, Bonner can get stops against second units and mismatches.

[chazley]

Wrote this thread last season and it still rings true. Love saying I told you so...

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think people realize OP is not all there mentally.

[SenorSpur]

Like others, I have criticized Bonner, not for his regular-season, perimeter exploits, but moreso for his playoff failings. I'm not here to do that today.

No matter what anyone thinks of Bonner, NO ONE can criticize him for his most recent performance versus the Thunder. Now, if he can translate into a slew of consistent performances in BIG regular season games, that would translate well for later in the playoffs.

Contrary to popular belief, I want the guy to do well and am rooting for him to be more consistent against top-flight competition. It's a bit optimistic to expect him to go 7-7 from the arc every night, but there's no doubt he has the ability to simply break a team's back if he gets on a roll, like he did last night.

[benefactor]

Love saying I told you so...
lol (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/roger_mason/)

[Obstructed_View]

Wrote this thread last season and it still rings true. Love saying I told you so...

You said that he should be starting, which makes you a blithering idiot. That still rings true.

[DieHardSpursFan1537]

Matt Bonner AKA "Red Rocket" can hit a lot of 3's, but his defense isn't top notch.

[ALVAREZ6]

Bonner was not making the 3-ball well enough last playoffs.


That was the source of the hate, because 3-point shooting is the only thing in Bonner's game, defense and offense combined. That's all he's worth having on the floor for, and when he's not hitting, you might as well play with 4 players.

[mingus]

Bonner had a really good game against one of the few playoff teams he can have a really good game against. OKC is the perfect matchup for a guy like Bonner. defensively, he really isn't exploitable against this team. the best rebounding big OKC has is... actually i don't know. i don't even think they have a guy rebounding over 8 per. only against OKC and a select few other playoff teams can Bonner play continuously and not be exploited.

[phyzik]

Maybe I should bump my threads about RJ that I made last year near the start of the season..... (I had a hard on for RJ like you do for the ginger)

One game means nothing.

Lets see him do it in the playoffs when it counts.

I dont hate bonner, I just hate the ammount of minutes he gets. He is a big man that plays on the perimiter and has a hard time on defense against just about everyone in his position in the entire league.

He is a bench player warranted at most 15 minutes a game. When he occasionally gets hot, I dont mind him staying in beyond that.

He still needs to prove he can do it in tough games like in the playoffs.

[DrSteffo]

Bonner is of course a specialist, one of the best shooters among bigs but also one of the worst rebounders and shot blockers. Obviously he is not half as valuable to a team like a clutch player like Horry for example but still useful. Splitter should get more PT when fully recovered and I like the very different options we have among our bigs.

[G-Dawgg]

Bonner may have disappeared on us in the playoffs on several occasions, but you can't dispute that he does shoot the ball well, scores well on drives with his floater, plays decent positional post-defense and he knows our system inside and out.
He's very useful to us and there's no denying that.... all we can hope is that he loses the the stage-fright and brings the same good things during the playoffs.

I think its just all about confidence.

...he can't be any shittier than DeJuan Blair right now......

[ALVAREZ6]

Maybe I should bump my threads about RJ that I made last year near the start of the season..... (I had a hard on for RJ like you do for the ginger)

One game means nothing.

Lets see him do it in the playoffs when it counts.

I dont hate bonner, I just hate the ammount of minutes he gets. He is a big man that plays on the perimiter and has a hard time on defense against just about everyone in his position in the entire league.

He is a bench player warranted at most 15 minutes a game. When he occasionally gets hot, I dont mind him staying in beyond that.

He still needs to prove he can do it in tough games like in the playoffs.
:tu


To be honest, I am completely FOR a policy that mandates Bonner to come off the court and stay off of it for the rest of the game once he misses 3 consecutive shots. No way he'll ever get hot after missing his first 3, or after missing 3 in a row after making a few. Once it's established that he isn't hitting, ------> Useless.

[ALVAREZ6]

Bonner may have disappeared on us in the playoffs on several occasions, but you can't dispute that he does shoot the ball well, scores well on drives with his floater, plays decent positional post-defense and he knows our system inside and out.
He's very useful to us and there's no denying that.... all we can hope is that he loses the the stage-fright and brings the same good things during the playoffs.

I think its just all about confidence.

...he can't be any shittier than DeJuan Blair right now......

Ummmmmm, I disagree 100%. Useful is everything Bonner isn't.


I'm not even trying to troll right here...Bonner is rather useless. Completely one-dimensional. If his 3 isn't falling, what exactly is Matt Bonner useful for in basketball???

[phyzik]

Ummmmmm, I disagree 100%. Useful is everything Bonner isn't.


I'm not even trying to troll right here...Bonner is rather useless. Completely one-dimensional. If his 3 isn't falling, what exactly is Matt Bonner useful for in basketball???

Dont sell Bonner too short.

He is also usefull for 6 more fouls when he isnt hitting.

Will come in usefull when we need to employ hack-a-shaq against the Celtics if he isnt raining 3's on them. :downspin:

[ALVAREZ6]

Exactly.

Considering the grand scope of concerns/areas a basketball coach needs to address with his roster, the amount Matt Bonner contributes to all of these needs as a whole are minimal. His worth can be measured easily, he's very, very replaceable.

[UnWantedTheory]

Dont feed the Chaz!!!!!

[Warlord23]

Excellent troll job :tu. A+

[dougp]

Ummmmmm, I disagree 100%. Useful is everything Bonner isn't.


I'm not even trying to troll right here...Bonner is rather useless. Completely one-dimensional. If his 3 isn't falling, what exactly is Matt Bonner useful for in basketball???

You're selling him rather short. I understand being frustrated with his post-season performances, but a lot of those fall on Pop rather than Bonner. His Ortg and Drtg are actually rather good when you think about the kind of player he is, and who he regularly has to defend. Here's his Ortg and Drtg since he's been w/ the Spurs.


Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
06-07 111 110 11.7 56 0
07-08 104 102 12.5 68 3
08-09 123 104 23.8 81 67
09-10 117 104 17.9 65 8

What about Kurt Thomas during his tenure as a Spur?

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
07-08 97 98 18.7 28 9
08-09 115 101 17.8 79 10

Or what about ol' Fabs - probably the most unappreciated big we've had for awhile.

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
05-06 102 100 8.3 59 0
06-07 112 100 17.3 79 33
07-08 125 101 20.1 82 64
08-09 115 106 12.5 51 11

Robert Horry, one of the best post defenders:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
03-04 107 93 15.9 81 1
04-05 108 96 18.6 75 16
05-06 107 97 18.8 63 3
06-07 104 98 16.5 68 8
07-08 98 100 12.9 45 5

Here's Duncan for comparison:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
06-07 111 94 34.1 80 80
07-08 110 97 34 78 78
08-09 111 100 33.6 75 75
09-10 116 101 31.3 78 77

We can go off on the Playoff tangent also.

Bonner's Tenure:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
06-07 76 101 2.7 9
07-08 149 106 4.5 2
08-09 75 112 20 5
09-10 104 112 17.3 10

Yah, he hasn't been great - but what about other bigs those years?

Kurt Thomas
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
07-08 96 104 15.8 17
08-09 93 109 16 5

Fabricio Oberto
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
05-06 75 109 4.8 7
06-07 130 105 20.8 20
07-08 112 104 19.5 17
08-09 128 106 11 2

Antonio McDyess
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
09-10 109 109 24.7 10

Robert Horry
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
03-04 123 97 21.1 10
04-05 127 103 26.8 23
05-06 117 111 17.2 13
06-07 115 100 20 18
07-08 84 102 10.3 15

Rasho Nesterovic
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
03-04 95 99 26.1 10
04-05 93 105 7.6 15
05-06 128 108 12.6 9

Tim Duncan
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
06-07 111 98 36.8 20
07-08 101 99 39.1 17
08-09 115 110 32.8 5
09-10 104 107 37.3 10

In other words, Bonner isn't as bad as everyone here makes him out to be.

[ElNono]

There's plenty of arbitrary advanced stats that makes him look like shit too (or at the very best, irrelevant), especially in the playoffs. PER, Winning shares, etc.

[Spursmania]

Wrote this thread last season and it still rings true. Love saying I told you so...

Yeah, one phenomenal game makes up for his annual disappearance in the play-offs.

You go Chaz!:lol

[Warlord23]

Hi Matt,

Instead of making a dozen different usernames and bumping old threads to call out people who have hated on you, can you please go back to the gym and work on boxing out and defending without fouling?

Thanks,
The rest of Spurstalk.

[Chomag]

Wrote this thread last season and it still rings true. Love saying I told you so...

One game is a I told you so? Calm down there grasshopper.

[rmt]

You're selling him rather short. I understand being frustrated with his post-season performances, but a lot of those fall on Pop rather than Bonner. His Ortg and Drtg are actually rather good when you think about the kind of player he is, and who he regularly has to defend. Here's his Ortg and Drtg since he's been w/ the Spurs.


Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
06-07 111 110 11.7 56 0
07-08 104 102 12.5 68 3
08-09 123 104 23.8 81 67
09-10 117 104 17.9 65 8

What about Kurt Thomas during his tenure as a Spur?

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
07-08 97 98 18.7 28 9
08-09 115 101 17.8 79 10

Or what about ol' Fabs - probably the most unappreciated big we've had for awhile.

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
05-06 102 100 8.3 59 0
06-07 112 100 17.3 79 33
07-08 125 101 20.1 82 64
08-09 115 106 12.5 51 11

Robert Horry, one of the best post defenders:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
03-04 107 93 15.9 81 1
04-05 108 96 18.6 75 16
05-06 107 97 18.8 63 3
06-07 104 98 16.5 68 8
07-08 98 100 12.9 45 5

Here's Duncan for comparison:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G GS
06-07 111 94 34.1 80 80
07-08 110 97 34 78 78
08-09 111 100 33.6 75 75
09-10 116 101 31.3 78 77

We can go off on the Playoff tangent also.

Bonner's Tenure:

Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
06-07 76 101 2.7 9
07-08 149 106 4.5 2
08-09 75 112 20 5
09-10 104 112 17.3 10

Yah, he hasn't been great - but what about other bigs those years?

Kurt Thomas
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
07-08 96 104 15.8 17
08-09 93 109 16 5

Fabricio Oberto
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
05-06 75 109 4.8 7
06-07 130 105 20.8 20
07-08 112 104 19.5 17
08-09 128 106 11 2

Antonio McDyess
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
09-10 109 109 24.7 10

Robert Horry
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
03-04 123 97 21.1 10
04-05 127 103 26.8 23
05-06 117 111 17.2 13
06-07 115 100 20 18
07-08 84 102 10.3 15

Rasho Nesterovic
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
03-04 95 99 26.1 10
04-05 93 105 7.6 15
05-06 128 108 12.6 9

Tim Duncan
Year Ortg Drtg MPG G
06-07 111 98 36.8 20
07-08 101 99 39.1 17
08-09 115 110 32.8 5
09-10 104 107 37.3 10

In other words, Bonner isn't as bad as everyone here makes him out to be.

I don't see how one could compare Bonner to Horry/Oberto who have such high basketball IQs and fearlessness/savvy. How many times have we seen Horry take an offensive foul or Oberto cut to the basket for a layup?

I don't care what advanced stats he has or if he's king of the +/-, Bonner doesn't belong on the court during the playoffs unless it's a blowout. And during the regular season, his minutes eat away at Splitter's or Blair's. I'm for Splitter spending as much time as possible acclimating to the Spurs and the NBA. If the Spurs play the Lakers in the playoffs, they'll need Splitter against Gasol/Bynum.

[chazley]

You said that he should be starting, which makes you a blithering idiot. That still rings true.

Nah I said he should be starting last season(not even sure if I did, just taking your word that I did say that). This season I'd cry if Bonner started with all the talent we had up front. Mcdyess should be starting right now, and it's not even close. I have not been impressed with Splitter. He moves his feet well on defense and can keep his arms straight up... other than that, I haven't seen much early on.

[hater]

why are ppl bitching about Bonners performance last year??

and why are ppl not mentioning RJ's performance last year anymore???

is it a racist thing or what? it's a new season both should be getting the benefit of the doubt.

[Whisky Dog]

Why do people keep trying to use all these oddball stats to prove a player's worth? It's irrelevant, the eyeball test and actual in game performance is all that matters. It's already been proven that Bonner is useful in the regular season to eat minutes and every now and then put up a great shooting performance. He's also been proven completely detrimental in the playoffs where he chokes on his shot. It's a given, has proven true over the entire time he's been here. The guy is consistently inconsistent in the regular season and consistently bad in the playoffs.


With this year's bigman depth I like the idea of putting him in the game late first or early second quarter as a spacing 3 ball shooter, and if he's missing then take him out of the rotation for that game unless he's needed for emergency. Allow him to contribute when his shot is falling but keep him from killing the team when it isn't.

[Whisky Dog]

why are ppl bitching about Bonners performance last year??

and why are ppl not mentioning RJ's performance last year anymore???

is it a racist thing or what? it's a new season both should be getting the benefit of the doubt.

Two things:

1) RJ has been doing it for 9 games consistently now which is looking like a season trend. Bonner had one outstanding game in one chance. He plays 8 more good to great games and it'll be different.

2) RJ had one bad season with the Spurs but very good seasons before that with other teams. Bonner has consistently been the same thing I described above for several years with the Spurs. That is a much stronger trend that likely won't break.

[hater]

Two things:

1) RJ has been doing it for 9 games consistently now which is looking like a season trend. Bonner had one outstanding game in one chance. He plays 8 more good to great games and it'll be different.

Bonner is having a good season so far. If you are expecting consistent allstar play from Bonner you are in a sad state.

The 7 3s game was a fluke. Do not expect this. Otherwise Bonner has been a decent bench player which is what Pop expects from him.



2) RJ had one bad season with the Spurs but very good seasons before that with other teams. Bonner has consistently been the same thing I described above for several years with the Spurs. That is a much stronger trend that likely won't break.

again, you cannot compare the 2 players talent. One is a near allstar talent, the other is a plain average role player. If Bonner is filling that latter expectation, noone needs to bring up last season and noone needs to bitch about Bonner.

[TJastal]

Nah I said he should be starting last season(not even sure if I did, just taking your word that I did say that). This season I'd cry if Bonner started with all the talent we had up front. Mcdyess should be starting right now, and it's not even close. I have not been impressed with Splitter. He moves his feet well on defense and can keep his arms straight up... other than that, I haven't seen much early on.

We had all the same talent last year, minus Splitter who you are not impressed with. Who exactly are you talking about as all this new "up front talent"?

[Whisky Dog]

Bonner is having a good season so far. If you are expecting consistent allstar play from Bonner you are in a sad state.

The 7 3s game was a fluke. Do not expect this. Otherwise Bonner has been a decent bench player which is what Pop expects from him.



again, you cannot compare the 2 players talent. One is a near allstar talent, the other is a plain average role player. If Bonner is filling that latter expectation, noone needs to bring up last season and noone needs to bitch about Bonner.

Bonner has barely played at all this season. How is he having a good season yet?

You're not getting the point. I'm not saying Bonner has to be an all-star or put up RJ numbers, I was saying if he puts up consistently good performances for his standard and helps the team keep winning for 8 more games in a row he'll be viewed differently because a current positive trend will develop. He hasn't played enough yet this season to say he's playing good ball consistently, and since the last several years he's been wildly inconsistent that's what people will expect until proven otherwise.

[Warlord23]

Nah I said he should be starting last season(not even sure if I did, just taking your word that I did say that). This season I'd cry if Bonner started with all the talent we had up front. Mcdyess should be starting right now, and it's not even close. I have not been impressed with Splitter. He moves his feet well on defense and can keep his arms straight up... other than that, I haven't seen much early on.

Hey Matt, I'm feeling hungry ... any sandwich suggestions?

[hater]

Bonner has barely played at all this season. How is he having a good season yet?


he is rotating on D, hustling on boards, not turning the ball over and shooting a good %. Good season.



You're not getting the point. I'm not saying Bonner has to be an all-star or put up RJ numbers, I was saying if he puts up consistently good performances for his standard and helps the team keep winning for 8 more games in a row he'll be viewed differently because a current positive trend will develop. He hasn't played enough yet this season to say he's playing good ball consistently, and since the last several years he's been wildly inconsistent that's what people will expect until proven otherwise.

the same could be said about RJ, he's had what 8 straight good games? that's not much. let's wait for at least 1/4 of the season then.

still bitching about Bonner's last season and not doing the same about RJ. is plain silly

[Whisky Dog]

he is rotating on D, hustling on boards, not turning the ball over and shooting a good %. Good season.



the same could be said about RJ, he's had what 8 straight good games? that's not much. let's wait for at least 1/4 of the season then.

still bitching about Bonner's last season and not doing the same about RJ. is plain silly

I'll say 9 straight good, productive games is a hell of a lot more indicative of consistently good performance than 2 games weeks apart. That's obvious, how anyone can say otherwise is ludicrous. When Bonner has played 9 straight productive games to his expectation level come back and talk to me.

[Chomag]

I don't see how one could compare Bonner to Horry/Oberto who have such high basketball IQs and fearlessness/savvy. How many times have we seen Horry take an offensive foul or Oberto cut to the basket for a layup?

I don't care what advanced stats he has or if he's king of the +/-, Bonner doesn't belong on the court during the playoffs unless it's a blowout. And during the regular season, his minutes eat away at Splitter's or Blair's. I'm for Splitter spending as much time as possible acclimating to the Spurs and the NBA. If the Spurs play the Lakers in the playoffs, they'll need Splitter against Gasol/Bynum.

Thats what concerns me about what I saw last game. It was good that Bonner was hot but we didn't see Splitter at all for the rest of the game untill the last minute of garbage time. Only true way to get a player acclimated is to play him and Splitter needs whatever minutes to get this system down. Not a knock on Bonner, but I'm more worried about Pop. We all know how he easily falls in love with a older player over a younger especially if they can shoot a three-pointer.

I made a joke about it in the game thread saying that Splitter better learn to shoot the three or we may never see him again.

[hater]

I'll say 9 straight good, productive games is a hell of a lot more indicative of consistently good performance than 2 games weeks apart. That's obvious, how anyone can say otherwise is ludicrous. When Bonner has played 9 straight productive games to his expectation level come back and talk to me.

I'm saying neither is a good indicative. Come back and talk to me mid-january at the very least. :toast

[Sissiborgo]

Got to love the red rocket! a really solid player:toast

[ALVAREZ6]

In other words, Bonner isn't as bad as everyone here makes him out to be.

So you're saying that Bonner isn't as bad of a player as we believe because, compared to the big men we've had since Robinson, he actually matches up to most?

Thanks. Great argument. Just kidding, it doesn't work because we all know the Spurs haven't had the best of centers to throw around next to Duncan since David Robinson.

Rasho, Kurt Thomas, Elson, Nazr Mohammed.... most of these guys are scrubs to very average quality players. They bounce around teams throughout the years because they are irrelevant...they aren't good enough to justify keeping around at all costs, and so they get shipped here and there when it makes sense.

McDyess and Oberto are two players that have been pretty solid for the Spurs. Bonner doesn't compare.

He makes threes...whatever. He's a power forward, but he plays with no power. He can't defend, he can't rebound. I'm not attacking him as a player because I know what type of player he is. The type of player Matt Bonner is, is not a very useful one. Very replaceable because all he brings is three pointers, and that's only when he's hot. He doesn't play significant minutes because obviously he is not adequate...otherwise he would play more. Is Brian Scalabrine a useful player???? Fuck no, that's why he doesn't play.

[ALVAREZ6]

Why do people keep trying to use all these oddball stats to prove a player's worth? It's irrelevant, the eyeball test and actual in game performance is all that matters. It's already been proven that Bonner is useful in the regular season to eat minutes and every now and then put up a great shooting performance. He's also been proven completely detrimental in the playoffs where he chokes on his shot. It's a given, has proven true over the entire time he's been here. The guy is consistently inconsistent in the regular season and consistently bad in the playoffs.


With this year's bigman depth I like the idea of putting him in the game late first or early second quarter as a spacing 3 ball shooter, and if he's missing then take him out of the rotation for that game unless he's needed for emergency. Allow him to contribute when his shot is falling but keep him from killing the team when it isn't.
:tu

Exactly. Those statistics are some of the most-meaningless I've seen around.



And that second paragraph is what I completely agree with in terms of using Bonner. ANYONE who watches the Spurs should be able to tell that Bonner has no worth on the court unless he is knocking down the three. With that said, it isn't extremely often that he's hot, and even when he is, he ins't really bring too much of anything else to the table. So, when considering ALL of the concerns the Spurs need to address throughout the season, including all of the roles needed to be played during the regular season, rebounding, scoring, DEFENSE, and an elevated game during the playoffs...Matt Bonner's role is extremely small. Therefore, he is rather useless. Relatively. He has some use during the regular season, in the long run he's very replaceable.

[dougp]

:tu

Exactly. Those statistics are some of the most-meaningless I've seen around.



And that second paragraph is what I completely agree with in terms of using Bonner. ANYONE who watches the Spurs should be able to tell that Bonner has no worth on the court unless he is knocking down the three. With that said, it isn't extremely often that he's hot, and even when he is, he ins't really bring too much of anything else to the table. So, when considering ALL of the concerns the Spurs need to address throughout the season, including all of the roles needed to be played during the regular season, rebounding, scoring, DEFENSE, and an elevated game during the playoffs...Matt Bonner's role is extremely small. Therefore, he is rather useless. Relatively. He has some use during the regular season, in the long run he's very replaceable.

Offensive rating and defensive rating are meaningless? What's the best stats you want to use to read what a player can do? Are you expecting anyone to fucking compare to Robinson?

It's rather sad how entitled Spurs fans act towards players on our roster. The fact that people were HAPPY Bonner got hurt, consider him a bad player, etc. all just show your true colors. We're not going to get another Robinson anytime soon - especially in this day and age. Good bigs are so few and far between, we watch players like Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq demand huge contracts that they don't deserve. We, as fans of our own team, trash talk and hate on one of the better 3 point shooters in the league.

I don't get the hate for anyone on our roster, and the blame people place on a single player is stupid. Blame the fucking front office and coach for not finding adequate talent to place around our trio. Blame them for squandering Scola, or not building Mahinmi or Butler or any of our other "projects."

Bonner can't defend OR play the 5. You want to blame someone for that besides Pop? Blame Tim Duncan. He's the one who doesn't want to be a center. For all the larger players that box out Bonner, there's the smaller PFs that he boxes out. For all the athletic players that blow past him, there's the slower players that he slows down.

But, as it is ...

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/1945/original/5008_9c00_420.gif?1276140522

[TJastal]

Offensive rating and defensive rating are meaningless? What's the best stats you want to use to read what a player can do? Are you expecting anyone to fucking compare to Robinson?

It's rather sad how entitled Spurs fans act towards players on our roster. The fact that people were HAPPY Bonner got hurt, consider him a bad player, etc. all just show your true colors. We're not going to get another Robinson anytime soon - especially in this day and age. Good bigs are so few and far between, we watch players like Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq demand huge contracts that they don't deserve. We, as fans of our own team, trash talk and hate on one of the better 3 point shooters in the league.

I don't get the hate for anyone on our roster, and the blame people place on a single player is stupid. Blame the fucking front office and coach for not finding adequate talent to place around our trio. Blame them for squandering Scola, or not building Mahinmi or Butler or any of our other "projects."

Bonner can't defend OR play the 5. You want to blame someone for that besides Pop? Blame Tim Duncan. He's the one who doesn't want to be a center. For all the larger players that box out Bonner, there's the smaller PFs that he boxes out. For all the athletic players that blow past him, there's the slower players that he slows down.

But, as it is ...

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/1945/original/5008_9c00_420.gif?1276140522

Actually most small ball power forwards out rebound him. Couple years ago I got a chuckle out of watching Matt Barnes take several rebounds right over the top of him in one game. :lol

[ElNono]

Actually most small ball power forwards out rebound him. Couple years ago I got a chuckle out of watching Matt Barnes take several rebounds right over the top of him in one game. :lol

Yeah, would have been nice if he could have boxed out Jared Dudley or Ponytail douche last playoffs.

[z0sa]

:tu

Exactly. Those statistics are some of the most-meaningless I've seen around.



And that second paragraph is what I completely agree with in terms of using Bonner. ANYONE who watches the Spurs should be able to tell that Bonner has no worth on the court unless he is knocking down the three. With that said, it isn't extremely often that he's hot, and even when he is, he ins't really bring too much of anything else to the table. So, when considering ALL of the concerns the Spurs need to address throughout the season, including all of the roles needed to be played during the regular season, rebounding, scoring, DEFENSE, and an elevated game during the playoffs...Matt Bonner's role is extremely small. Therefore, he is rather useless. Relatively. He has some use during the regular season, in the long run he's very replaceable.


This post pretty much sums up the idiocy of Bonner haters perfectly. Notice the first lines where he disregards fairly hard evidence for literally no reason (apparently, one MUST judge a player by "eyeballing" it, even though that's the very definition of inaccuracy and bias). Then follow the next paragraph as he puts forth a jumbled bit of jargon that's vague, un predictive, and inaccurate.

This response should just be reposted by the Bonner haters over and over.

[ElNono]

This post pretty much sums up the idiocy of Bonner haters perfectly. Notice the first lines where he disregards fairly hard evidence for literally no reason (apparently, one MUST judge a player by "eyeballing" it, even though that's the very definition of inaccuracy and bias). Then follow the next paragraph as he puts forth a jumbled bit of jargon that's vague, un predictive, and inaccurate.

This response should just be reposted by the Bonner haters over and over.


I doubt Bonner has a future with the team.

[z0sa]

That has literally nothing to do with what I posted, and considering Bonner is one of our best trade assets, it's definitely possible his time with the team is limited.

[ElNono]

That has literally nothing to do with what I posted, and considering Bonner is one of our best trade assets, it's definitely possible his time with the team is limited.

Did you look at the thread date that quote came from?

[z0sa]

Did you look at the thread date that quote came from?

Explain it's relevancy in the context of the post you quoted.

[Obstructed_View]

Nah I said he should be starting last season(not even sure if I did, just taking your word that I did say that). This season I'd cry if Bonner started with all the talent we had up front. Mcdyess should be starting right now, and it's not even close. I have not been impressed with Splitter. He moves his feet well on defense and can keep his arms straight up... other than that, I haven't seen much early on.

News flash: Dice was here last year. The only person on the front line that's new this year is the one you're not impressed with, so you're still a moron for thinking Bonner should start.

I think I'm happy that you like Bonner (who Gary Neal outrebounds) and don't like Splitter, particularly since you think Roger Mason Jr is good. :lol

[ElNono]

Explain it's relevancy in the context of the post you quoted.

The relevancy is that you also called him a choker, that the fairly hard evidence for why he is a choker is widely available too, that you seemingly gave up on the guy back then, but now that he's been re-signed and it's on the team, you have the balls to go around pointing fingers calling other people haters.

To be completely honest, this is not personal, because it's not just you. Plenty of other good posts in that thread from people that have short memory.

[z0sa]

The relevancy is that you also called him a choker, that the fairly hard evidence for why he is a choker is widely available too, that you seemingly gave up on the guy back then, but now that he's been re-signed and it's on the team, you have the balls to go around pointing fingers calling other people haters.

To be completely honest, this is not personal, because it's not just you. Plenty of other good posts in that thread from people that have short memory.

I didn't call Bonner a choker. You assume that for no reason. Just because I was being "realistic" about him being resigned (or if resigned, traded), doesn't mean I consider Bonner a choker.

As for giving up on him, I was unaware of where he'd be following the season. I think you have just assumed too many things. But I'm not afraid of being accountable, and if Bonner is even close to as streaky as last playoffs, then I will be "through" supporting him. He's had more chances than some are willing to give, I accept that.

[Agloco]

I honestly think that people don't understand how good Bonner is on this Spurs team. I know I'm in the 5% minority that likes Bonner and thinks he is a KEY chip to us winning a ring, and the numbers do not lie. When he starts, he is our best 3-point shooter, and most consistent 4-man. You know exactly what you're getting with Matt: Solid defense in the post and poor defense against quick 4s, exceptional 3-point shooting (not as of late but it will come around). He also is a great pick-setter (he needs to work on his midrange game so he can pick and pop, cause he definitely can't roll) which is VERY underrated. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The 4/5 spot is NOT what is wrong with this Spurs team. It's 2 things: Our piss-poor perimeter D, and total lack of chemistry.

You can go there and check it out for yourself, but according to 82games.com, Bonner has been out 3rd best player this season, behind Manu and Tim. Not only that, but for his adjusted +/- per 48 minutes, he has been 4 points better THAN ANY OTHER SPUR!!!

I know everyone has banded together and hates Bonner, but he has done very good for us. I also know that everyone thinks Pop is a dumbass. It's actually quite the opposite, the fans are the dumbasses because he has been a genius with his lineups. He knows what is most effective for us, and personally the only thing I would change would be to give Bogans no more than 10 minutes a game in a specialty role and let Parker/Hill/RJ start.

With Bonner and McDyess, we have two above average PF who can both start depending on the opponent and they have both been very underrated this season. The funny thing is, I think our team will be the second best team in the playoffs if RJ can give us just a little bit more and we stay healthy. I honestly think we would win 4 games against any East playoff team, but we match up so terribly against the Lakers (Pau/Kobe specifically), I don't see us having a chance whenever we meet them, be it in the 2nd round or WCF.

Go ahead and flame me boys.

Playoffs

[ElNono]

I didn't call Bonner a choker. You assume that for no reason. Just because I was being "realistic" about him being resigned (or if resigned, traded), doesn't mean I consider Bonner a choker.

As for giving up on him, I was unaware of where he'd be following the season. I think you have just assumed too many things. But I'm not afraid of being accountable, and if Bonner is even close to as streaky as last playoffs, then I will be "through" supporting him. He's had more chances than some are willing to give, I accept that.

Don't get me wrong. I still love you z0sa. No homo. :lol

[ElNono]

BTW, I got the choker part from here:


Was he a choker in last playoffs, brah?


He had too much pressure for a role player in his first real playoffs. But if you want my opinion without the lining, yes he did.

[z0sa]

Yes, I realize I said that. I was hoping that conversation wouldn't bite me in the ass. However, in my defense, I said he choked in 09, but had too much pressure - he was set up for the "choke". I didn't brand him as an actual choker, just said that he did indeed choke that 1 playoffs due to the high pressure, which essentially no role player could handle. IMO, he did not choke these last playoffs. See the last couple games against the Suns where he was shooting every time he was open.

And you gotta know you are one of my favorite posters, Nono. :)

[ALVAREZ6]

Offensive rating and defensive rating are meaningless? What's the best stats you want to use to read what a player can do? Are you expecting anyone to fucking compare to Robinson?

It's rather sad how entitled Spurs fans act towards players on our roster. The fact that people were HAPPY Bonner got hurt, consider him a bad player, etc. all just show your true colors. We're not going to get another Robinson anytime soon - especially in this day and age. Good bigs are so few and far between, we watch players like Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq demand huge contracts that they don't deserve. We, as fans of our own team, trash talk and hate on one of the better 3 point shooters in the league.

I don't get the hate for anyone on our roster, and the blame people place on a single player is stupid. Blame the fucking front office and coach for not finding adequate talent to place around our trio. Blame them for squandering Scola, or not building Mahinmi or Butler or any of our other "projects."

Bonner can't defend OR play the 5. You want to blame someone for that besides Pop? Blame Tim Duncan. He's the one who doesn't want to be a center. For all the larger players that box out Bonner, there's the smaller PFs that he boxes out. For all the athletic players that blow past him, there's the slower players that he slows down.

But, as it is ...

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/1945/original/5008_9c00_420.gif?1276140522
When have I ever said I expected someone to fill in for David Robinson? :lmao with the assumptions people...trust me, I completely understand that there is a very limited number of true, solid big men in the league. I've known this for some time, and I do not feel entitled or anything, it's not like I expect the Spurs to sign Kevin Garnett or Dwight Howard. But that doesn't mean I wasn't content with players like Oberto, or it doesn't mean that I am not currently content with Antonio McDyess. I love Dyess and once Splitter develops and gains experience I'm sure I will love his game.

Now, how did you assume everything I've just refuted??? Let me be clear: THIS THREAD IS ABOUT MATT BONNER. And that's it. With that said, Matt Bonner is NOT an adequate PF/C. Now, I understand that it isn't his fault he's on the roster, NOR am I saying I want him replaced...because he's that irrelevant to me. Sure he can knock some shots down during the season, but his role is not and should not be too significant on this team.

A lot of the dislike for Bonner came during last year's playoffs when he was completely useless. He would come in, not play defense, not rebound...not do things the Spurs need from a forward. Last year, it's important to note the Spurs had a less experienced McDyess (in terms of the Spurs system), and Tiago Splitter also wasn't on the roster. So, it's a different situation this year. I'm sorry for being frustrated by small forwards such as Jared Dudley grabbing tons of offensive rebounds against the Spurs during the playoffs...snatching more opportunities for the Suns. I know it's not Matt Bonner's strength to play like a big man, but in a playoff situation, where your season is over if you lose, I want players out on the floor that are gonna do the dirty work...especially if you're 6'10".

All of this can be summarized to: I don't want Bonner to play too many minutes per game come playoff time. Especially if he's already missed a few shots in a row to start off...he renders himself useless.

[ALVAREZ6]

This post pretty much sums up the idiocy of Bonner haters perfectly. Notice the first lines where he disregards fairly hard evidence for literally no reason (apparently, one MUST judge a player by "eyeballing" it, even though that's the very definition of inaccuracy and bias). Then follow the next paragraph as he puts forth a jumbled bit of jargon that's vague, un predictive, and inaccurate.

This response should just be reposted by the Bonner haters over and over.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...How about this:

There comes a point where statistics can be misleading. They can portray something that nobody has seen over the years. Why do we have any sports analysts???? Because statistics don't always mean everything; observation is also very important, and on the "sign or do not sign and drop decision", observation is probably just as or MORE important than pure statistics. In fact, you can mislead others in so many ways, especially when it comes to sports. For example, with statistics, I could argue that Monta Ellis is a better offensive player than Kobe Bryant. However, if your team is in hopes of a championship and wants scoring, there is no doubt 99% of people would rather have Kobe Bryant on their team.

Let's apply to this case, since after all we are arguing about Matt Bonner( :lol Bonner). With the statistics provided earlier in this thread, one could argue that Bonner is just as effective as Tim Duncan.

Well, we are talking about value in this thread, aren't we??? No one on Earth would value Bonner even remotely close to Duncan. Unless they are missing 75% of their brain.

So this is why I disregarded these statistics...I don't do it most of the time, only in this case because they really don't show anything. You cannot tell me from those statistics the relative worth of those players.

The 2nd part of your post: my ramblings were inaccurate? How so?
I claimed that Bonner is relatively useless (compared to being useful) when it comes to the grand scope of the Spurs. He's not an adequate defensive player, he doesn't rebound, and quite frankly, these parts of the game are crucial for the Spurs system. At least historically.

Whether or not Matt Bonner is on the Spurs roster has a VERY SMALL effect on the outcome of the Spurs season. Agree or disagree???? Because all of my posts can pretty much be summarized to this.

Don't dare you respond to this and say that you disagree and that if the Spurs did not have Matt Bonner this year, they would not go as far as they would like...because if you do, you are admitting you don't know shit.

[ALVAREZ6]

Since no one has responded to this topic we were debating earlier for over 6 hours...you either silently agree with my statement, or you're out of your mind(s).

[dougp]

Since no one has responded to this topic we were debating earlier for over 6 hours...you either silently agree with my statement, or you're out of your mind(s).

Actually there's no point arguing with you. You're firm in your stance, and I know that I am. Bonner fits the role he was brought here for perfectly. He was brought in to shoot and provide 6 extra fouls. His other tangents lead Pop to playing him more or expecting more than he was capable of. He has hustle and energy, and isn't a terrible defender - but his rebounding numbers have never been stellar. He's never strayed far from his career average for rebounds, so the best way to relate it is bringing in Shaq and then expecting him to shoot 3's or defend a small forward. The bad thing is, you know Pop would probably try to draft up plays like that for Shaq if we had him. :lol

But I have to admit, I have personal connections to Bonner so I'll probably be a bit of a homer.