Immediate thoughts...

[roycrikside]

First of all, it's obvious Tony shouldn't have played tonight. He had NOTHING. He hurt us out there. Again, as it's been the case his entire career, this is the difference between him and Tim and Manu. The other two guys are true stars (with Tim being a superstar) in that they can contribute and influence games even if they're not scoring.

Tony on the other hand, is merely a scorer. A good player, but an overrated one by the general NBA fan community. If he can't score, he mentally checks out in every other facet of the game. He cannot compensate with deft passing or defensive playmaking like Ginobili can, and he can't rebound or challenge shots like Tim. He is what he is, a talented, but one-dimensional, player.

Secondly, it's seriously time to put the "Manu's old," "Manu's done," "Manu should be traded" talk to rest. Yeah he had a groin injury in early, and he struggled to get his rhythm back after such a long lay-off, but he's been the Ginobili we've grown accustomed to for the past 15 games or so. In fact, I dare say he's been our best player in February, for what it's worth. He's clearly healthy, feeling well, and back to his regular status as one of the top 25 players on the planet. If there are Spurs fans out there who still want him gone, then it must because they're feeling sorry for him, knowing it's impossible for him to win another ring on this franchise and that his only chance for another 'chip is to go elsewhere.

I hate to say it, but Tim, to me, is starting to look like the guy we saw in the second half of last year. I think he's running out of gas. He looks slow and robotic on the offensive end and is being beaten too easily on defense. I hope I'm wrong, but I think he's going to shoot like 40% in the second half, and miss a few games here and there. He's too old and has too much mileage on his odomoter to be our best player for a full season anymore. That's why it's hurt us so much that Tony came into the season injured and that the RJ and Dice acquisitions haven't worked out. At this stage of his career Tim should really be a defense and rebounding guy, like David Robinson was at the end. We should have to count on him to score 20 a night still.

A game like this highlights why RJ has been such a disappointment. We absolutely needed him to answer the bell against a team with the caliber of athletes that Philly has, especially with two of the big three being as limited as they are. In fact, if Pop trusted RJ at all, I'm guessing Tony would've sat this game, as he should of. Of course, Jefferson came up small once again with 8 pts and 5 rebs, and a ton of bonehead plays. What a complete clusterfuck by Pop and Buford. My buddy from the east coast warned me about RJ but I was too stupid to listen. What kills me is if he was on some shit team like the Bucks, you know he would've had an empty, pressure-free 25 pts tonight on these guys.

We got Dice one year too late. Figures. I guess all those +/- and "Player Pairs" stats last season on the Pistons were relevant after all. Even though it looks on the surface like he had a better year in '08-09 than 'Sheed, Wallace's +/- killed Antonio's and virtually every teammate played better with him on the floor, while virtually everyone played worse with Antonio. Some guys are just losers. It's not like it matters. 'Sheed has been crap for Boston too.

[suitedkings]

Dude at this point that was TL DR.

[TD 21]

First of all, it's obvious Tony shouldn't have played tonight. He had NOTHING. He hurt us out there. Again, as it's been the case his entire career, this is the difference between him and Tim and Manu. The other two guys are true stars (with Tim being a superstar) in that they can contribute and influence games even if they're not scoring.

Tony on the other hand, is merely a scorer. A good player, but an overrated one by the general NBA fan community. If he can't score, he mentally checks out in every other facet of the game. He cannot compensate with deft passing or defensive playmaking like Ginobili can, and he can't rebound or challenge shots like Tim. He is what he is, a talented, but one-dimensional, player.

Secondly, it's seriously time to put the "Manu's old," "Manu's done," "Manu should be traded" talk to rest. Yeah he had a groin injury in early, and he struggled to get his rhythm back after such a long lay-off, but he's been the Ginobili we've grown accustomed to for the past 15 games or so. In fact, I dare say he's been our best player in February, for what it's worth. He's clearly healthy, feeling well, and back to his regular status as one of the top 25 players on the planet. If there are Spurs fans out there who still want him gone, then it must because they're feeling sorry for him, knowing it's impossible for him to win another ring on this franchise and that his only chance for another 'chip is to go elsewhere.

I hate to say it, but Tim, to me, is starting to look like the guy we saw in the second half of last year. I think he's running out of gas. He looks slow and robotic on the offensive end and is being beaten too easily on defense. I hope I'm wrong, but I think he's going to shoot like 40% in the second half, and miss a few games here and there. He's too old and has too much mileage on his odomoter to be our best player for a full season anymore. That's why it's hurt us so much that Tony came into the season injured and that the RJ and Dice acquisitions haven't worked out. At this stage of his career Tim should really be a defense and rebounding guy, like David Robinson was at the end. We should have to count on him to score 20 a night still.

A game like this highlights why RJ has been such a disappointment. We absolutely needed him to answer the bell against a team with the caliber of athletes that Philly has, especially with two of the big three being as limited as they are. In fact, if Pop trusted RJ at all, I'm guessing Tony would've sat this game, as he should of. Of course, Jefferson came up small once again with 8 pts and 5 rebs, and a ton of bonehead plays. What a complete clusterfuck by Pop and Buford. My buddy from the east coast warned me about RJ but I was too stupid to listen. What kills me is if he was on some shit team like the Bucks, you know he would've had an empty, pressure-free 25 pts tonight on these guys.

We got Dice one year too late. Figures. I guess all those +/- and "Player Pairs" stats last season on the Pistons were relevant after all. Even though it looks on the surface like he had a better year in '08-09 than 'Sheed, Wallace's +/- killed Antonio's and virtually every teammate played better with him on the floor, while virtually everyone played worse with Antonio. Some guys are just losers. It's not like it matters. 'Sheed has been crap for Boston too.

What's this, a good post not from HarlemHeat37, Blackjack, or MaNu4TrEs? (I'm probably forgetting a couple of others). I'm genuinely surprised.

[timvp]

Well at least a good ol' Tony sucks, Manu is awesome thread can spice up the forum instead of all the cliffjumping threads.

[roycrikside]

Well at least a good ol' Tony sucks, Manu is awesome thread can spice up the forum instead of all the cliffjumping threads.

Well, I could add a few "Fire Pop" or "Pop's a moron" lines, but lots of other people do that for me...

[easy7]

In a nutshell, we are f-ed....

[timvp]

Well, I could add a few "Fire Pop" or "Pop's a moron" lines, but lots of other people do that for me...

Exactly.

[Thompson]

The better Manu plays now, the more likely it is that one of the disappointed teams that miss out on LeBron, Wade and Bosh will overpay him to avoid ending up with nothing this summer.

[TD 21]

Well at least a good ol' Tony sucks, Manu is awesome thread can spice up the forum instead of all the cliffjumping threads.

I don't want to put words in roycrikside's mouth, but based on what he/she wrote, I'm fairly certain that that's not at all what he/she was saying. But I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what was written.

As for Parker, his toughness is underrated. I don't know if it's how he looks, the fact that he's French, the fact that he's married to a Hollywood starlet, or a combination of those, but for whatever reason people have this idea that he's a wimp.

He clearly shouldn't be playing right now and even though he looked awful tonight, he gutted one out. On top of that, he's going to play for the French national team this summer, even though it's a stupid decision, will obviously impact his season negatively next year, is something he may never fully recover from and he's clearly sick of the game at this point, he continues to go on. Yet he never get's credit for this, nor for his (though less so this season) relentless attacks on the basket.

[timvp]

Speaking of Manu and TP, Manu nowadays does a pretty awesome impersonation of the younger Parker who would would play well through three quarters and then run out of gas by the fourth. We've seen Manu be able to fight until the end a few times in recent weeks but he usually looks like he's wearing cement boots at the end of the game. Tonight included.

Unfortunately, TP looked like he was wearing cement boots from the opening tip.

[timvp]

I don't want to put words in roycrikside's mouth, but based on what he/she wrote, I'm fairly certain that that's not at all what he/she was saying. But I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what was written.

As for Parker, his toughness is underrated. I don't know if it's how he looks, the fact that he's French, the fact that he's married to a Hollywood starlet, or a combination of those, but for whatever reason people have this idea that he's a wimp.

He clearly shouldn't be playing right now and even though he looked awful tonight, he gutted one out. On top of that, he's going to play for the French national team this summer, even though it's a stupid decision, will obviously impact his season negatively next year, is something he may never fully recover from and he's clearly sick of the game at this point, he continues to go on. Yet he never get's credit for this, nor for his (though less so this season) relentless attacks on the basket.

Your final two paragraphs do not belong in this thread. Stay on topic.

[ShoogarBear]

I don't want to put words in roycrikside's mouth, but based on what he/she wrote, I'm fairly certain that that's not at all what he/she was saying. But I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what was written.

If you look at previous posts, that's pretty much ALL he/she ever posts. It's almost as good as the glory days of aaronstampler.


As for Parker, his toughness is underrated. I don't know if it's how he looks, the fact that he's French, the fact that he's married to a Hollywood starlet, or a combination of those, but for whatever reason people have this idea that he's a wimp.

He clearly shouldn't be playing right now and even though he looked awful tonight, he gutted one out. On top of that, he's going to play for the French national team this summer, even though it's a stupid decision, will obviously impact his season negatively next year, is something he may never fully recover from and he's clearly sick of the game at this point, he continues to go on. Yet he never get's credit for this, nor for his (though less so this season) relentless attacks on the basket.

I agree with this. It was clear early on that Tony wasn't going to do well out there. However, despite the blindness of the OP, he did have 4 assists in the first quarter. But Pop should have never put him out there for the second half.

[TD 21]

Speaking of Manu and TP, Manu nowadays does a pretty awesome impersonation of the younger Parker who would would play well through three quarters and then run out of gas by the fourth. We've seen Manu be able to fight until the end a few times in recent weeks but he usually looks like he's wearing cement boots at the end of the game. Tonight included.

Unfortunately, TP looked like he was wearing cement boots from the opening tip.

That's another issue with this team. Other than probably Hill and Jefferson, they don't have a single player who looks like he can play extended minutes without looking dead legged. Everyone has to be kept in a certain range and that makes it difficult to win games.

Like tonight. Ginobili has it going, but you just knew in the 4th quarter that eventually he's going to need at least a three minute break and sure enough when he got it, the game began to slip away.

The NBA, now more than ever, is a young man's league. The Spurs can still win with this core (though it's becoming increasingly difficult), but they need to surround them with youth, athleticism, length, speed and quickness. You know, the same things they've needed for years but have neglected to acquire. Then they get a past his prime Jefferson this off season and act like they've solved the issue. McDyess hasn't been athletic in years, Haislip is, but didn't play, the same goes for Mahinmi and Hairston, so who does that leave? Hill and Blair, who's only athletic for his body type, not overall.

[roycrikside]

Speaking of Manu and TP, Manu nowadays does a pretty awesome impersonation of the younger Parker who would would play well through three quarters and then run out of gas by the fourth. We've seen Manu be able to fight until the end a few times in recent weeks but he usually looks like he's wearing cement boots at the end of the game. Tonight included.

Unfortunately, TP looked like he was wearing cement boots from the opening tip.

I don't think Manu's endurance, which was always below-average, relatively speaking, is any different this year. He's just allocating his energy differently.

Back in the good ol' days, Manu could coast, make a bucket here or there, make a play now and again, for the first three quarters, and if the game was tight, the fourth quarter would he his time to turn it on and carry us home. The rest of the team was good enough for Manu to not be fully engaged and for it to still be a game in the fourth quarter.

Now, almost inevitably, thanks to Pop's pitiful starting lineups and the gimpy impostor in the Parker jersey, we're trailing at the six minute mark when Manu checks in and he has to expend some energy bringing the team back above water, because, let's face it, it's not like Hill or Mason are going to create good looks for anyone.

Same thing happens in the third quarter. We'll up 5 at half time and the other team will come out on fire and our starters, no doubt roused up by Pop's inspirational words, will come out with all the energy of a pack of bananaslugs. Lead: Gone. Momentum: Bad Guys.

Again, Manu has to spend the 3rd getting the team level. Hence, in the 4th quarter, he doesn't have much left. That's the problem.

But, it's getting better. His stamina seems to be improving.

Sadly, we cannot say the same for one Mr. Duncan.

[timvp]

I don't think Manu's endurance, which was always below-average, relatively speaking, is any different this year. He's just allocating his energy differently.

I wish I had your optimism. Even in games where the starters play well and Ginobili doesn't have to go all out early on, he has almost always looked completely spent after playing 24 or 25 minutes. At which time he can't defend anyone, can't shoot threes and can only hope for getting a circus layup at the rim.

Add in a worn down, broken TP and a Duncan who doesn't look as spry and that isn't a great combination.

[it's me]

I don't think Manu's endurance, which was always below-average, relatively speaking, is any different this year. He's just allocating his energy differently.

Back in the good ol' days, Manu could coast, make a bucket here or there, make a play now and again, for the first three quarters, and if the game was tight, the fourth quarter would he his time to turn it on and carry us home. The rest of the team was good enough for Manu to not be fully engaged and for it to still be a game in the fourth quarter.

Now, almost inevitably, thanks to Pop's pitiful starting lineups and the gimpy impostor in the Parker jersey, we're trailing at the six minute mark when Manu checks in and he has to expend some energy bringing the team back above water, because, let's face it, it's not like Hill or Mason are going to create good looks for anyone.

Same thing happens in the third quarter. We'll up 5 at half time and the other team will come out on fire and our starters, no doubt roused up by Pop's inspirational words, will come out with all the energy of a pack of bananaslugs. Lead: Gone. Momentum: Bad Guys.

Again, Manu has to spend the 3rd getting the team level. Hence, in the 4th quarter, he doesn't have much left. That's the problem.

But, it's getting better. His stamina seems to be improving.

Sadly, we cannot say the same for one Mr. Duncan.

somehow I agree with this..... we should've traded him two day ago.....sadly, we didn't do it..... so now we should start him..... and give an end to that "spark from the bench" bullshit...... use GHill to "spark" the team.... Manu is too old already to spark shit.... and after all Pop loves to start old dudes.....

[rascal]

That's another issue with this team. Other than probably Hill and Jefferson, they don't have a single player who looks like he can play extended minutes without looking dead legged. Everyone has to be kept in a certain range and that makes it difficult to win games.

Like tonight. Ginobili has it going, but you just knew in the 4th quarter that eventually he's going to need at least a three minute break and sure enough when he got it, the game began to slip away.

The NBA, now more than ever, is a young man's league. The Spurs can still win with this core (though it's becoming increasingly difficult), but they need to surround them with youth, athleticism, length, speed and quickness. You know, the same things they've needed for years but have neglected to acquire. Then they get a past his prime Jefferson this off season and act like they've solved the issue. McDyess hasn't been athletic in years, Haislip is, but didn't play, the same goes for Mahinmi and Hairston, so who does that leave? Hill and Blair, who's only athletic for his body type, not overall.

Pop is too fixated on aged veterans.

[roycrikside]

One last thought for the night and then I'm done.

Starters: 34 pts. Bench: 60 pts.

When your bench scores 60 and your starters score 34, it doesn't mean you have a great bench. What it means is your coach is a fucking simpleton who doesn't know how to put together a proper starting lineup.

There, happy, LJ? I called out Pop after all. And it's not like you could argue the point.

[TMTTRIO]

The better Manu plays now, the more likely it is that one of the disappointed teams that miss out on LeBron, Wade and Bosh will overpay him to avoid ending up with nothing this summer.
Well he'll have something to play for

[jjktkk]

I never would of thought this group would look so bad! I ,as well as many of you, thought that the additions of Jefferson, McDyess, and Blair, as well as the continued growth of Hill added to the big 3 would definitly upgrade the Spurs to contender status. Boy were alot of people(me included) wrong on this team.

[spurs10]

Again, without Manu we aren't even in this game to get humiliated in the 4th quarter. Ever think about the fact that your best player is out of gas in the 4th qtr. because he's had to kill himself to keep us in the game? TD and TP played horrible tonight. Criticizing MG's lack of energy in the end is ridiculous. Tony can't play....if he plays in Detroit we'll get our asses handed to us again.

[spurs10]

Yeah, starters 34 pts. vs. the bench 60 pts. is nothing more or less than horrible coaching. We got murdered in the last game with this group of starters. When we again get our asses kicked in the Motorcity with this lineup, hopefully Holt will step in and stop the bleeding. You know as pissed off as we all are, he's got to be several millions times more pissed off than us. 34 points, Pop what can you be possibly thinking?

[kace]

the "when TP doesn't score, he's useless" and "without his quicness, TP is worthless" arguments are my favorite ones from the TP haters/manu lovers

1/ like it or not, this game is about scoring and preventing to score. there are a lot of overrated stats, like defensive rebounding, assists or blocks. but scoring at a high % is the biggest gift in this game. i find it funny that some people are dismising it like it was only one skill among others.

as for preventing to score, as shitty as parker was yesterday and even if he's not a defensive force one on one, his perimeter defense was way better than hill or bogans one. when focused, he doesn't allow penetrations. the 15-0 run for the sixers when he was on the bench showed that.

2/ about TP's quickness, it's just false that it's his only skill. there are probably 15 quicker guards in this league. maybe more. His amazing body control, great ballhandling skills and his innate precision under the rim are what make him special. A quick first step does help but that's not what makes TP special. he scored 28 points at + 50 % last game with a lot of great moves (hesitation dribble ....) even without his usual speed.

but hey, without his quickness, TP can't score and he's worthless. but manu, even when he's at 2-14 with 5 TO brings so many intangibles that he's still great :rolleyes