Bring Parker of the bench ?

[Spurgio]

Just a thought: Parker's a scorer, a damn good one at that too (when healthy), not a play maker. This is something pop hasn't tried yet.

Starting 5:

George Hill
Manu Ginobili
Richard Jefferson
Tim Duncan
Antonio Mcdyess

That's a pretty good offensive AND defensive lineup. With this squad there's more options offensively. Bring in Tony off the bench and let him go nuts. The pick and roll with Blair would be pretty sexy also.

Thoughts on this ?

[slayermin]

Interesting idea. But I think TP goes AI on us if that happened.

[timvp]

Benching TP makes a whole hell of a lot more sense than starting Bonner and Bogans.

[Wombatzu]

rest Parker. trade him for a big and a draft pick.

[rascal]

Parker just needs more rest. Get Parker healthy and he will be fine.

This season there won't be a title anyways. Rest Parker

Develop the young players. Get Bonner and Bogans out of the rotation altogether. You can't win in this league with a starting 5 that plays outside the paint and chucks up 3 point shots.

[Spurgio]

Picture this as a second unit:

Parker
Mason/Bogans/Finley (depending on the situation)
Blair
Bonner
Mahimni

Parker can drive in (blair & mahimni) can help clear the lane, or he can dish out to Mason or Bonner for a 3. Again Blair & Mahimni can help with boards incase of a miss.

[Bukefal]

This is crazy :bang

[TPnumber1]

youre motherfkers ,you forget tony had made with spurs you are pathetic you dont deserve tony.Trade him yes

[timvp]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 17 (12 members and 5 guests)
timvp, ElNono, Behrooz24, lurker23, biba, TPnumber1, Spurgio, Parker2112, Wombatzu, taps, will_spurs, SAtown

Let's hear it :hungry:

[Spurgio]

This is crazy :bang

why is this crazy ? Parker was good as a starter when the 2 scoring options were him and Timmy. Bruce & Finley just hit the open 3s and the Center was there for defensive purposes, so Tonys main purpose was to score, not to create. Manu new this, so that's why he decided to come of the bench, so he could help the 2nd unit and create for them.

WITH THIS TEAM:

The best players are offensively more potent, meaning they can score easier. So why not have the best play maker (Ginobili) out in the floor with them?

Having tony in the second unit would be similar to the type of system he's been used in the past.

[Parker2112]

Manu and TP have completely reversed roles over these years.

Manu was our slasher/scorer from the bench, now his effectiveness is limited there.

TP ran the offense at a much simpler time when you were going to be ok if you could get it to Timmy. And he always had the option to take the drive or kick.

This year we need flow to take advantage of mismatches and create opportunity for guys who cant create for themselves. Manu does that.

Parker can be that second unit scorer/punch in the face/points producing wild man that manu used to be. Manu can be the motor for an offense full of guys who need help. The only guy we have outside of parker that can create for himself is Hill. The first unit needs Manu.

And as Manu goes, so should Blair go.

On second unit, let Bonner continue to take threes from TP's kick outs, and let Dice run some pick and roll with parker.

Last thing, Parker needs rest badly, I think Pop should let Manu run with the first string, along with Blair, to see what it looks like.

It beats what we are doing.

[Parker2112]

I just dont see when we have RJ and Dice floundering out there, why anyone who cant produce in TP's offense (really Pop's) should need to go to the bench (as RJ just did). TP doesnt need anyone or anything to make him effective. He is a one man gang.

[Parker2112]

When healthy that is.

[jaffies]

That was it??

[TPnumber1]

ok tony is having one bad season .... and what ? (sorry for my english)

[timvp]

Since the Spurs are desperate at this point, I'm open to any idea. If Duncan coming off the bench helped the Spurs, I'd be all for it.

That said, starting Manu and building the offense around him doesn't make too much sense when his biggest weakness right now is endurance. As it stands even with him coming off the bench, Manu's effectiveness dramatically falls off after about 25 minutes played. In the first half of games, Manu has been pretty damn good. In the third and fourth, his effectiveness has consistently plummeted.

I haven't seen a quality argument to bring TP off the bench. If he's injured, don't play him. Bringing him off the bench because he's slowed won't help.

A best case scenario would be to somehow limit the stress on TP while he's injured and limit Manu to about 25 total minutes. However, doing those two things and still winning sounds impossible.

[Spurgio]

I'm not saying Tony's playing bad (although he is) haha. It's about making the Team better, manu did it in the past and it worked.

[Parker2112]

I lost tons when that previous board was closed. I dont have time to repeat that post attempt, I've got a huge exam starting tuesday.

I just think RJ and Dice both need help, manu does that, Blair in the starting lineup helps us avoid small ball, and if TP is at full strength, who cares who he plays with on the second team? Let him pull a jordan in game 7. I like what Manu brings, and I think it would reduce pressure on TD as well. I think it is a win win, that will produce wins.

What do we have to lose? What do we stand to lose with having back to back disasterous seasons?

Then again Im not one of the resident experts. Ill check back when you guys have finished proving me wrong. Your up.

[TPnumber1]

hill had a good game,but how many good games had tony ? you are make me laugh

[timaios]

This team is not going well !
It's time to start the best players.

Tony + Manu + RJ + Dice + Timmy

Why are the Spurs always trying to be more clever than everyone else in the league.
Sometimes the most simple is simply the best : start your best 5 !

[ginobili fan]

This team is not going well !
It's time to start the best players.

Tony + Manu + RJ + Dice + Timmy

Why are the Spurs always trying to be more clever than everyone else in the league.
Sometimes the most simple is simply the best : start your best 5 !

You know what ? THIS is an interesting idea finally.
Why not start the best 5 ?
We are not going to be the defensive killer spurs anyway. Stop trying to replace Bowen with weird experiments , Hill, Bogans,...

[Chomag]

We are all going crazy! It's very warrented though because the Ship is sinking so fast. lol

[Parker2112]

Since the Spurs are desperate at this point, I'm open to any idea. If Duncan coming off the bench helped the Spurs, I'd be all for it.

That said, starting Manu and building the offense around him doesn't make too much sense when his biggest weakness right now is endurance. As it stands even with him coming off the bench, Manu's effectiveness dramatically falls off after about 25 minutes played. In the first half of games, Manu has been pretty damn good. In the third and fourth, his effectiveness has consistently plummeted.

I think you could make this arg about the whole team. There is a reason we lose leads in the third and fourth. But that has more to with D in my opinon. Yet our offense stagnates as well.


I haven't seen a quality argument to bring TP off the bench. If he's injured, don't play him. Bringing him off the bench because he's slowed won't help.
I agree, if hes not full speed this wont work at all.


A best case scenario would be to somehow limit the stress on TP while he's injured and limit Manu to about 25 total minutes. However, doing those two things and still winning sounds impossible. At some point we are going to be faced with the same hard choices we faced last season when TD's foot/knee was limiting him. We played him then. I thin we Give Manu the reigns when TP can handle the bulk of the scoring of the bench.

The biggest reason I buy this idea, after we failed to pull off a trade, its obvious that if we are going to get more potent on offense, something that will feed everyone's confidence and get us playing at a high level, we must get more production from RJ and Dice. They are our only hope in my mind, of a title. I think Manu gives them the best shot at producing high numbers, while a healthy TP can produce no matter who is on the court.

[Spurgio]

The biggest reason I buy this idea, after we failed to pull off a trade, its obvious that if we are going to get more potent on offense, something that will feed everyone's confidence and get us playing at a high level, we must get more production from RJ and Dice. They are our only hope in my mind, of a title. I think Manu gives them the best shot at producing high numbers, while a healthy TP can produce no matter who is on the court.

Sir, I am suing you for plagiarism.

[objective]

Rest TP, sit him out.

If it risks missing the playoffs, so what? TP in the playoffs how he's been this season will be a disaster. Shame that no one else can step up like RJ to help carry the load but there it is.

I don't expect any rest to happen though, even a sweep loss in the first round brings some important cash to the Spurs.

Pop will grind him into the ground so much to get to the playoffs that he won't be able to help the FNT in the tourny.

[silverblk mystix]

the ONLY reason I would vote for having parker come off the bench is this:
the spurs played arguably their best game of the season against denver before the all star break..
that lineup DESERVED to start the next game period.

Tony could have come off the bench to keep his minutes down while he tries to heal...

how could you NOT reward the lineup that came out shooting lights out against denver and sparked the team!

oh yeah...pop is smarter than all of us...

[Parker2112]

Let's hear it :hungry:

Timvp I hope your putting together some stats to confirm/deny this madness.

[timvp]

Timvp I hope your putting together some stats to confirm/deny this madness.

Confirm or deny what? I've already said I'm for anything that helps get wins, including bringing TP off the bench. I've yet to see a good argument that such a move will improve the team. And since you so badly wanted this topic discussed, why aren't you providing quality reasons?

And no, putting more strain on a player whose weakness is endurance doesn't count as a quality reason. I know you have homework but you took the time to complain, you can take the time to add some sound reasoning to this thread.

[diego]

This team is not going well !
It's time to start the best players.

Tony + Manu + RJ + Dice + Timmy

Why are the Spurs always trying to be more clever than everyone else in the league.
Sometimes the most simple is simply the best : start your best 5 !

the best players by play, or the best players by name?

I havent seen enough of the season to name the best by play, but from what I have seen part of the spurs problems come from making players fit roles instead of finding roles that fit the players.

I disagree in the sense that, I dont think its not enough to just throw out your best names and hope for the best, they need roles, a rotation, ie an identity. the spurs have lost their meat grinder identity (due to age and BB's retirement) and this is where i agree, i think pop has been guilty of trying to out-clever himself out of the situation instead of making a real change to his system. the main thing is pop figuring out a rotation and sticking to it.

There's no reason this team should look so shorthanded on the court when you consider the payroll this season compared to previous ones. I remember coming into the season people were debating if we had too many bigs! but it turns out pop is barely able to squeeze out 45min from blair/dyess/ratliff/mahinmi and we've already passed half the season.

pop needs to stop playing nostradomus with plans for 011/12/13/14, and put out his best lineup in terms of who is doing what he wants best out there. its like they've developed a lightswitch mentality. go back to being a disciplined team and play the guys the minutes they earn. if that means playing scrubs so be it.

when the spurs were great, they had good defensive rebounding, did a great job defending the 3 pt line and the paint, and did a great job attacking the paint and scoring from 3. It seems all we have left now is scoring from 3 with ok defensive rebounding, while other teams kill us with layups and 3s all night. the system is broken to the point of not having one, and pops constant tinkering wont allow for any real build up to something else. its so frustrating...

[DesignatedT]

i agree with resting tp. this team goes nowhere without him playing at an all-star level

[Parker2112]

Confirm or deny what? I've already said I'm for anything that helps get wins, including bringing TP off the bench. I've yet to see a good argument that such a move will improve the team. And since you so badly wanted this topic discussed, why aren't you providing quality reasons?

And no, putting more strain on a player whose weakness is endurance doesn't count as a quality reason. I know you have homework but you took the time to complain, you can take the time to add some sound reasoning to this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, we are desperate for more production out of RJ and Dice. We overpaid, and with thier level of production they are not even trade bait. If Manu could bring return on ownership's investment I say that is worth a shot.

If we don't see production out of them, I say the season is over. Many are conceding that anyway.

I dont think TP is at fault for not being able to get RJ and Dice integrated, but I do think with TP the ball stays in his and Timmy's hands to the detriment of the new guys. With TP at point the ball rarely moves more than twice before the shot, and if it's not Tony or Timmy taking it, it's a three pointer. That is killing the new guys, and I think Pop needs to rethink the approach. RJ is not a three point specialist, but in our offense his new role is limited, as every new signing before him has been.

I think Dice is more effective working in closer to the bucket as he knows how to move without the ball. But with the standard offense he usually gets the 18 footer, and if he doesnt hit it we suffer.

Tony doesnt need the ball moving to produce.

I understand what your saying about Manu, but if TD can play through injury then Manu can play through fatigue.

Sorry if that's not convincing but that's the best I can do.

[ChumpDumper]

I understand what your saying about Manu, but if TD can play through injury then Manu can play through fatigue.What is your evidence supporting that? Last night's game was a big argument against it.

[TMTTRIO]

If Manu's so weak to do anything out there the Spurs should've traded him right away for anything and at least gotten some kind of talent to replace him. Well now it doesn't matter. He's probably gone anyways this summer. Hopefully we can get someone to replace him during FA. As for Tony it doesn't matter if he starts or come off the bench. He needs to rest right now anyways.

[Dex]

Don't worry guys.

I'm going to start practicing in the morning. Spurs will be signing me next week and I'll save the season.

[slayermin]

This could work. But Blair needs to start with Manu. I would want TD, Blair, RJ, Manu, and Hill as the starting lineup. Bring Tony off the bench with Mason and McDyess/Bonner. If this ever happened and TP accepted this role without complaint, I will never utter a negative comment about Parker ever again.

[benefactor]

Manu can play through fatigue.

Do you even watch the games?

[igruex]

That said, starting Manu and building the offense around him doesn't make too much sense when his biggest weakness right now is endurance. As it stands even with him coming off the bench, Manu's effectiveness dramatically falls off after about 25 minutes played. In the first half of games, Manu has been pretty damn good. In the third and fourth, his effectiveness has consistently plummeted.

A best case scenario would be to somehow limit the stress on TP while he's injured and limit Manu to about 25 total minutes. However, doing those two things and still winning sounds impossible.

Starting Manu could help spacing his minutes. I've been giving a thought to the idea for some time now, Manu usually gets to play in the middle of the 1st and 3rd quarter, starting him in those could help to give him more than the 3/5 minutes of rest he's getting given that scheme. Pop should try something at least for the 4th on Manu... he's not getting the best of him down the stretch.

A healthy Manu playing 25 minutes won't happen, ever. He's gonna play 28/32 till the PO. The Spurs can't afford those 5/7 minutes Manuless right now.

Pop always try to get Tony going in the scoring department, early in the 1st for the Spurs to get a win. He was probably right, till now, Tony's not only failing in getting everyone involved but he's not giving us the best (by far) scoring option of the whole team.

All in all, I can't find solid reasons to have Tony coming from the bench, yet, they way Pop's using Manu is not producing an optimal.

[lefty]

I'm ok with bringing Parker off the bench


As long as Pop keeps Finley and Bonner ON the bench all the time

[GhosTown]

i agree with resting tp. this team goes nowhere without him playing at an all-star level


This team is going nowhere as long as Bonner plays.

[timvp]

As far as I'm concerned, we are desperate for more production out of RJ and Dice. We overpaid, and with thier level of production they are not even trade bait. If Manu could bring return on ownership's investment I say that is worth a shot.All three players are coming off the bench as it is. Theoretically, Manu should now be able to help them out.


I dont think TP is at fault for not being able to get RJ and Dice integrated, but I do think with TP the ball stays in his and Timmy's hands to the detriment of the new guys. With TP at point the ball rarely moves more than twice before the shot, and if it's not Tony or Timmy taking it, it's a three pointer. That is killing the new guys, and I think Pop needs to rethink the approach. RJ is not a three point specialist, but in our offense his new role is limited, as every new signing before him has been. Again, Pop's lineup switch has taken RJ and McDyess out of the starting lineup. That should have those two playing less of their minutes with him. That should make you happy.


I think Dice is more effective working in closer to the bucket as he knows how to move without the ball. But with the standard offense he usually gets the 18 footer, and if he doesnt hit it we suffer.McDyess has evolved strictly into a jumpshooter. We knew that coming into the season. He's getting almost exactly the same number of shots per minute from the same spots on the court as last season. Where McDyess shoots isn't TP's fault ... it's just how McDyess has evolved.

Speaking of McDyess, I haven't witnessed a very good connection with Manu. It seems like 25% of Manu's turnovers have bounced off McDyess' hands.


I understand what your saying about Manu, but if TD can play through injury then Manu can play through fatigue.

If Manu could play through fatigue, he would be playing through fatigue. But as it is, and I hate to say it, Manu has been horrible in fourth quarters this season.

FG% by Quarter
1st - 42.2%
2nd - 44.3%
3rd - 38.7%
4th - 38.5%

3P% by Quarter
1st - 39.1%
2nd - 41.8%
3rd - 38.9%
4th - 21.6%

Points per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 24.4
2nd - 25.8
3rd - 24.8
4th - 22.3

Assists per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 9.5
2nd - 8.4
3rd - 8.3
4th - 7.2

Turnovers per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 2.3
2nd - 3.6
3rd - 3.0
4th - 5.3

Watching Manu, one can tell that fatigue is an issue. Those numbers back it up completely. His production diminishes as the game goes along. By the fourth quarter, his scoring is down, he becomes a poor three-point shooter, his assists are less frequent and he turns the ball over much more. So, yeah, any "plan" that relies on Manu battling through fatigue is a flawed plan.

[jjktkk]

I always thought that McDyess should be starting, because out of all the F/C's on this team, McDyess, IMO, is the most talented(Excluding Duncan). But do any of you think Pop worries about McDyess wearing down if he plays too many minutes?

[Whisky Dog]

Why rest Parker now? He'll just be healthy for his national team in the summer. Ride and grind his ass into the ground bow so he'll be too shot to play NT and will have to rest. What the heck are the Spurs paying millions for anyways?

[Parker2112]

All three players are coming off the bench as it is. Theoretically, Manu should now be able to help them out.

Again, Pop's lineup switch has taken RJ and McDyess out of the starting lineup. That should have those two playing less of their minutes with him. That should make you happy.

McDyess has evolved strictly into a jumpshooter. We knew that coming into the season. He's getting almost exactly the same number of shots per minute from the same spots on the court as last season. Where McDyess shoots isn't TP's fault ... it's just how McDyess has evolved.

Speaking of McDyess, I haven't witnessed a very good connection with Manu. It seems like 25% of Manu's turnovers have bounced off McDyess' hands.



If Manu could play through fatigue, he would be playing through fatigue. But as it is, and I hate to say it, Manu has been horrible in fourth quarters this season.

FG% by Quarter
1st - 42.2%
2nd - 44.3%
3rd - 38.7%
4th - 38.5%

3P% by Quarter
1st - 39.1%
2nd - 41.8%
3rd - 38.9%
4th - 21.6%

Points per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 24.4
2nd - 25.8
3rd - 24.8
4th - 22.3

Assists per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 9.5
2nd - 8.4
3rd - 8.3
4th - 7.2

Turnovers per 48 minutes by Quarter
1st - 2.3
2nd - 3.6
3rd - 3.0
4th - 5.3

Watching Manu, one can tell that fatigue is an issue. Those numbers back it up completely. His production diminishes as the game goes along. By the fourth quarter, his scoring is down, he becomes a poor three-point shooter, his assists are less frequent and he turns the ball over much more. So, yeah, any "plan" that relies on Manu battling through fatigue is a flawed plan.

Great take as usual. This is why I come to this site. These analyses changes the way I watch and enjoy Spurs games.

Unlike many, I don't expect to be right, many times I know I'm way off base. My interpretation of our game play is usually completely instinctual. I enjoy seeing how the stats compare to what my gut tells me.

Thanks for the analysis as always Timvp.

I think your right about Dice and Manu...I've seen the same thing myself as far as missed passes.
So how about:

Start Manu, Hill, Blair, TD and Fin..ughhh...ley.

Bench group: TP, Bogans, Bonner, Dice, RMJ.
Let TP get the bulk of looks, with Bonner, Dice and RMJ getting outside shot opportunities and Dice to run picka dn roll with tony.

Let RMJ spell Manu throughout to keep his minutes near 30.