An Open Letter for Everyone Defending Pop

[dbestpro]

Dear Fucksticks,

I, along with a growing number of real Spurs fans on this site, am growing tired of your bullshit. By openly defending Pop of not being the problem on the Spurs and by extension insinuating that he be kept (hint: the only worse coach than Pop in the NBA right now is Kiki Vandeweghe and you might be better with him at that) will make this team perform better, you are either admitting your status as a moomoofan fuckstick or have overdosed on the greatness of Tim Duncan and the four championships he has delivered to this team.

Many of us remember the days before this current Pop and see it as an improvement. Many of us remember what it was like to have a team whose rotations made sense, and one which the players believed in, including the years of the previous Pop with four championships. Three NBA franchises have more rings than the Spurs, and since you probably don't know who they are, it's the Celtics, Lakers and Michael Jordan. That's some pretty fucking good company if you ask me that we should continue to enjoy. Going to the back of the pack is not acceptable for a true Spurs fan.

This team needs to play SFs at SF and their current big men next to Duncan to succeed. A new coach is needed if Pop can not return to form. If you believe otherwise, you must be shrooming.

MooMoo fan: A fan who will follow their team without question to the the slaughter.

True Fan: A fan who will follow their team and will question every move that does not result in a championship.

[alchemist]

:sleep still no name that will do better with this exact same team.......

[Obstructed_View]

:sleep still no name that will do better with this exact same team.......

No he just said the only one currently in the NBA who might not. Some of you need to come to grips that when a guy gets outcoached twice by Vinny Del Negro your team has problems.

[jason1301]

Grow up its just a sport, you little bitches you act like Pop murdered someone close to you. And please stop acting like you know better, b/c you don't.

:toast

[timvp]

Someone will be by shortly to edit, delete, or ban you.

[Whisky Dog]

Pop has been shitacular this season and I'm a fan of the guy. His rotations and starting lineups look like a kindergarten class picked them. His comments and overall negative and pessimistic demeanor speak of a man who has gotten fat on the hog and has given up.

[lefty]

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4793/pophobo.jpg

[ohmwrecker]

Someone will be by shortly to edit, delete, or ban you.

I am a little confused here. What is the offense here? Is it the mocking nature toward the original thread or simply that a new thread was started to accomplish said mockery? Is it the language? Certainly not . . . Was the original thread starter banned? I don't get it.

[ohmwrecker]

Oh, wait . . . it was the Moomoo fan thing. Yes?

[TJastal]

I'll gladly sign this letter. The Popsucker version can kiss my ass.

[I_Speak_4_Dallas_Fan]

I am a little confused here. What is the offense here? Is it the mocking nature toward the original thread or simply that a new thread was started to accomplish said mockery? Is it the language? Certainly not . . . Was the original thread starter banned? I don't get it.
A little?

[jag]

This thread is certainly going to bring all the geniuses out of the woodwork...

[ohmwrecker]

A little?

No. I mean, I get that both threads are extremely stupid, but that can't be the criteria . . . can it?

[Kori Ellis]

No. I mean, I get that both threads are extremely stupid, but that can't be the criteria . . . can it?

You are definitely confused. No one is going to edit/delete the thread or ban the original poster. init2winit was just complaining (as usual) about something that hasn't happened.

[weebo]

This team, as its composed, with TD, TP, Manu, and Pop has run its course. As much as we want to blame all the other pieces or one of these four men, it is the collection of the whole that is the problem. Players don't know the system and the coach doesn't know the players. In all fairness to Pop (and I'm not apologizing for his ineptitude this season), he seems like the captain of a sinking ship. You can see him mightily plugging leaky holes left and right. The problem, however, remains as there are too many leaky holes to plug.

[exstatic]

Grow up its just a sport, you little bitches you act like Pop murdered someone close to you. And please stop acting like you know better, b/c you don't.

:toast

Win.

[exstatic]

This team, as its composed, with TD, TP, Manu, and Pop has run its course. As much as we want to blame all the other pieces or one of these four men, it is the collection of the whole that is the problem. Players don't know the system and the coach doesn't know the players. In all fairness to Pop (and I'm not apologizing for his ineptitude this season), he seems like the captain of a sinking ship. You can see him mightily plugging leaky holes left and right. The problem, however, remains as there are too many leaky holes to plug.

Win II

[ffadicted]

:deadhorse

/thread

Pop is here to stay until he retires on his own account folks

[ohmwrecker]

This thread is certainly going to bring all the geniuses out of the woodwork...

Dear _JaGoFf,
I'm just trying to have a little fun and entertain myself. If you want a an intelligent, serious discussion, go start a thread that merits that response. I am just working with what I have here.

[Kori Ellis]

:cry:

[z0sa]

Pop deserves the most criticism of anyone for our underachievement this season, but it's not even close to all on him. It's just a game of basketball; the coach only does so much standing there on the sideline.

[ohmwrecker]

You are definitely confused.

. . . Or, am I confused like a fox?

[tp2021]

This team, as its composed, with TD, TP, Manu, and Pop has run its course. As much as we want to blame all the other pieces or one of these four men, it is the collection of the whole that is the problem. Players don't know the system and the coach doesn't know the players. In all fairness to Pop (and I'm not apologizing for his ineptitude this season), he seems like the captain of a sinking ship. You can see him mightily plugging leaky holes left and right. The problem, however, remains as there are too many leaky holes to plug.

Preach

[TJastal]

This team, as its composed, with TD, TP, Manu, and Pop has run its course. As much as we want to blame all the other pieces or one of these four men, it is the collection of the whole that is the problem. Players don't know the system and the coach doesn't know the players. In all fairness to Pop (and I'm not apologizing for his ineptitude this season), he seems like the captain of a sinking ship. You can see him mightily plugging leaky holes left and right. The problem, however, remains as there are too many leaky holes to plug.

Top 5 Pop mistakes this year

Pop's been the guy that has steered the ship off course more than the injuries or anything else pertaining to the players.


Top 5 Popped screw ups

1. Not moving on a trade for Tyrus Thomas & John Salmson when they we're both available. TT/JS would have = :lobt2:

2. Signing Bogans which torpedoed the more athletic and talented Hairston's role on the team.

2. Playing regular minutes of small ball as a habit, instead of a situational tactic.

3. Constant tinkering with lineups and rotations. Roger Mason seemed to have gotten the worst of it ... his role/minutes have fluctuated all year long.

4. Dumb strategy of sitting Tim Duncan on B2B's .... took the spurs out of rhythym both times he tried it, which effectively ended their two best winning streaks of the year.

5. Using Michael Finley in the rotation.

I'm sure I could come up with more, but these are the main problems

[Chomag]

This thread is certainly going to bring all the geniuses out of the woodwork...

Hmmm, funny you should say that...

[dbestpro]

For those of you that are unsure, yes this is a parody.

[mavsluva]

Dear Fucksticks,

I, along with a growing number of real Spurs fans on this site, am growing tired of your bullshit. By openly defending Pop of not being the problem on the Spurs and by extension insinuating that he be kept (hint: the only worse coach than Pop in the NBA right now is Kiki Vandeweghe and you might be better with him at that) will make this team perform better, you are either admitting your status as a moomoofan fuckstick or have overdosed on the greatness of Tim Duncan and the four championships he has delivered to this team.

Many of us remember the days before this current Pop and see it as an improvement. Many of us remember what it was like to have a team whose rotations made sense, and one which the players believed in, including the years of the previous Pop with four championships. Three NBA franchises have more rings than the Spurs, and since you probably don't know who they are, it's the Celtics, Lakers and Michael Jordan. That's some pretty fucking good company if you ask me that we should continue to enjoy. Going to the back of the pack is not acceptable for a true Spurs fan.

This team needs to play SFs at SF and their current big men next to Duncan to succeed. A new coach is needed if Pop can not return to form. If you believe otherwise, you must be shrooming.

MooMoo fan: A fan who will follow their team without question to the the slaughter.

True Fan: A fan who will follow their team and will question every move that does not result in a championship.

Your NBA playing, coaching and management experience: none
Popvich's experience: TONS!

Just because you watch each game and are able to make certain suggestions AFTER the game is played does not make you an NBA caliber decision maker. You are simply self smarted. You have to remember. Popovich makes his decisions BEFORE the game/play is carried out. You, on the other hand, simply criticize his plan AFTER it succeeds or fails. (most likely because it failed if you're criticizing it)

Truth is, if you were calling the shots, you'd be open to the same criticism as is any other coach for any sports team. And there's a better than average chance that you'd be called a dumbass just as often as you call Popvich a dumbass.

It's important to keep in mind that you're simply a spectator with NO NBA experience. Respect those that have the experience and enjoy the presentation. If you choose not to, then don't tune it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Maybe you can coach the Spurs.

[dbestpro]

Your NBA playing, coaching and management experience: none
Popvich's experience: TONS!
Blah, blah, blah.

You must be new here. Look at the post prior to yours and you will be set free.

[Rummpd]

I know longer defend Pop. Pop goes the weasel - he has lost it.

[romsho]

His team was outrebounded 49-32, 16 of which were offensive, and Pop talked after the game about just not making shots...who the fuck does he think is buying into his bullshit? His ridiculous smallball lineup is the 800lb gorilla in the room-but no one in the media has the balls to question any of it. God forbid anyone question or discuss strategy with the resident genius. This is what really sucks about being a one sport city- Pop has a dictator like stranglehold on everything Spurs. He would never get away this shit in a major media market. His pompous, arrogant, I'm smarter than you act certainly played better when success followed. Now, he just looks like a senile dickhead.

[ploto]

There are enough guys now for a support group--

Nazr
Rasho
Francisco
Kurt
Antonio
Theo

[J.T.]

For those of you that are unsure, yes this is a parody.

That you had to explain this means you failed. Good job. :td

[itzsoweezee]

There are enough guys now for a support group--

Nazr
Rasho
Francisco
Kurt
Antonio
Theo

you forgot Malik Rose

[taps]

you forgot Malik Rose

fo handled rose perfectly to the tune of three championships, malik may feel slighted but spur fans should be happy with the way our choices for him ended up (notwithstanding nazr walking)

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Top 5 Pop mistakes this year

Pop's been the guy that has steered the ship off course more than the injuries or anything else pertaining to the players.


Top 5 Popped screw ups

1. Not moving on a trade for Tyrus Thomas & John Salmson when they we're both available. TT/JS would have = :lobt2:

It takes two sides to make a trade. I seriously doubt Chicago would move Thomas and Salmons for anything we had.

2. Signing Bogans which torpedoed the more athletic and talented Hairston's role on the team.

Why are Spurs fans stuck on Hairston? Yeah he's athletic and great D-League player but he's not an impact NBA player. Have you seen him on the court? He is lost most of the time.

2. Playing regular minutes of small ball as a habit, instead of a situational tactic.

We only have two quality bigs...Duncan and Dice. Both of which Pop tries to limit their minutes. He is forced to play small ball because Ratliffe, Ian, and to some exent Bonner just cant get the job done. Small ball allows his best players on the court.

3. Constant tinkering with lineups and rotations. Roger Mason seemed to have gotten the worst of it ... his role/minutes have fluctuated all year long.

Probably your only valid argument. But I think the reason Pop does this is because he has failed to find any combination of players that can play well together. Bonner understand defensive schemes but struggle on offensive side of ball...ditto with Bogans. McDyess has stuggled on both offensive and defensive side of court. Blair shows some flashes of brilliance but also prone to rookie mistakes. Mason is inconsistent (I would like to see him back to starter minutes like last year). Jefferson is Jefferson. The only players he can count on right now are Tim, Tony, Manu and Hill (when they are healthy)

4. Dumb strategy of sitting Tim Duncan on B2B's .... took the spurs out of rhythym both times he tried it, which effectively ended their two best winning streaks of the year.

Tim needs to rest. I dont like it either but if Tim is not healthy for playoffs we have no chance of making any kind of run. Same with Tony and Manu. Although Manu seems to have fully recovered.

5. Using Michael Finley in the rotation.

Finley hasnt been a part of the rotation in months. BTW...as much as people hate Finley for getting minutes he understands Pop's system. Right now there are way too many guys that are having difficulty with schemes. There are several games that come to mind where Pop is yelling at players to their correct rotations before the opposing players even have the ball...McDyess, Jefferson and Blair are some examples. Pop rather have someone on the court that is making correct rotation and challenging shot than having players on court giving opposing players good looks. The Finley/Bonner combination was good enough for a 3rd place seed in the West.


I'm sure I could come up with more, but these are the main problems

Pop is not the problem. Although he is a much better defensive coach than offensive mind. That aspect of the Spurs needs to be addressed.
The problem in most part lies with the players. Their unwillingness or inability to understand the system, in addition to poor play in fourth quarters are hurting this team.

[erikuff]

Pop is not the problem. Although he is a much better defensive coach than offensive mind. That aspect of the Spurs needs to be addressed.
The problem in most part lies with the players. Their unwillingness or inability to understand the system, in addition to poor play in fourth quarters are hurting this team.
This and the quote is truth.
Though small ball is a pain in the ass to watch, pop's other gameplans are not as idiotic as you all make it to be.

[itzsoweezee]

This and the quote is truth.
Though small ball is a pain in the ass to watch, pop's other gameplans are not as idiotic as you all make it to be.

yes they are. and not only are they idiotic, they reek of desperation. 18 lineup changes. starting bonner again? starting small? it all points to popovich having absolutely no clue of what to do.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, I gotta say most of Pop's game plans here so far are demonstrably idiotic. Those that defend him don't really do it with anything other than emotion.

I don't know that he's any more an offensive mind than he is a defensive coach, at least in a basketball sense. In real life he's proving to be both.

[lennyalderette]

im with you guys on this, i love my spurs and it makes me furious when i know if he just played the right lineup we could be winning more games, im so disgusted i seriously cant watch them too much right now pop is making me sooo furious. he has changed and is a shell of himself. he acts and carries himself as if its preseason all year!!!! who is this guy?? what in the hell is he doing with our team? ill say it fire him!!! replacehim with avery johnson or mike budenholzer as head coach with P.j carlis.. as assis coach theres the replacement!!!! are you happy and i know we would do better

[mingus]

Tony Parker hasn't been himself all year. he's not getting us baskets anywhere near as effeciently as he was last year

Bowen's toughness, leadership, and "glue" quality (aside from his elite defense) is a void that hasn't been filled by either RMJ, Hill, Bogans, or RJ. Bowen was the teams vocal leader, and he was 1/2 of the balls on the team, Manu being the other. this team might be the most talented of any spurs' teams but they're by far the softest.

these are two things that are more detrimental to the Spurs than anything Pop has done.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Dear Fucksticks,

I, along with a growing number of real Spurs fans on this site, am growing tired of your bullshit. By openly defending Pop of not being the problem on the Spurs and by extension insinuating that he be kept (hint: the only worse coach than Pop in the NBA right now is Kiki Vandeweghe and you might be better with him at that) will make this team perform better, you are either admitting your status as a moomoofan fuckstick or have overdosed on the greatness of Tim Duncan and the four championships he has delivered to this team.

Many of us remember the days before this current Pop and see it as an improvement. Many of us remember what it was like to have a team whose rotations made sense, and one which the players believed in, including the years of the previous Pop with four championships. Three NBA franchises have more rings than the Spurs, and since you probably don't know who they are, it's the Celtics, Lakers and Michael Jordan. That's some pretty fucking good company if you ask me that we should continue to enjoy. Going to the back of the pack is not acceptable for a true Spurs fan.

This team needs to play SFs at SF and their current big men next to Duncan to succeed. A new coach is needed if Pop can not return to form. If you believe otherwise, you must be shrooming.

MooMoo fan: A fan who will follow their team without question to the the slaughter.

True Fan: A fan who will follow their team and will question every move that does not result in a championship.

...or maybe Pop is as baffled by this team's lack of success as the rest of us and he's trying every inconceivable thing under the sun to get them to click, but with no success - ergo, the players have a lot to answer for. That makes a lot more sense than Pop, who as you mention has 4 championship rings, suddenly forgetting how to coach.

Also, who are you going to replace him with? AJ? PJ? Really? You think these guys offer a better future chance of success than a 4-time NBA championship coach, who, might I add, is also 4-0? No frickin way.

Reactionary fan: see OP.

True fan: understands that what's on paper doesn't always pan out in reality, sometimes teams don't gell (especially with injuries and aging, declining players), and teams go through rebuilding cycles. We are entering one. Deal with it.

[Chieflion]

...or maybe Pop is as baffled by this team's lack of success as the rest of us and he's trying every inconceivable thing under the sun to get them to click, but with no success - ergo, the players have a lot to answer for. That makes a lot more sense than Pop, who as you mention has 4 championship rings, suddenly forgetting how to coach.

Also, who are you going to replace him with? AJ? PJ? Really? You think these guys offer a better future chance of success than a 4-time NBA championship coach, who, might I add, is also 4-0? No frickin way.

Reactionary fan: see OP.

True fan: understands that what's on paper doesn't always pan out in reality, sometimes teams don't gell (especially with injuries and aging, declining players), and teams go through rebuilding cycles. We are entering one. Deal with it.
Hey, read this thread, it gives you an idea why this thread was made.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147220

[dbestpro]

That you had to explain this means you failed. Good job. :td

Yes, I guess you're right. Sometimes, intellectual humor does not reach everyone. :king

[EmptyMan]

We need DRob's 3 pt shooting back.

[MrFundamental]

yes they are. and not only are they idiotic, they reek of desperation. 18 lineup changes. starting bonner again? starting small?
So who in the hell should he start? Starts Bonner (big) Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"

Doesn't start Bonner, goes small Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"


it all points to popovich having absolutely no clue of what to do.
Exactly, when your team woefully under-performs like this team has, it's no wonder he doesn't know what line-up might actually play worth a shit any given night.

[Obstructed_View]

So who in the hell should he start? Starts Bonner (big) Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"

Doesn't start Bonner, goes small Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"


Exactly, when your team woefully under-performs like this team has, it's no wonder he doesn't know what line-up might actually play worth a shit any given night.

Fail. The gripe on starting Bonner is because Bonner's a jump shooting role player who has little athletic ability and can't block shots or rebound. Bonner, Duncan and three guards is not a "big" lineup. When you see Bonner at small foward next to Duncan and Mahinmi then we can discuss big vs. small lineups.

[Chomag]

So who in the hell should he start? Starts Bonner (big) Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"

Doesn't start Bonner, goes small Spurs fans: "Rabble... rabble... rabble"


Exactly, when your team woefully under-performs like this team has, it's no wonder he doesn't know what line-up might actually play worth a shit any given night.

There are 3 other bigs that could start over Bonner in this order. Dice,Blair,Ian. SO don't tell me thart there are no other options other then bonner without going small.

(yes Blair is a big, but he just has to be matched up correctly. Not the whole only big out on the floor like Pop likes to use him)

[Brazil]

Fail. The gripe on starting Bonner is because Bonner's a jump shooting role player who has little athletic ability and can't block shots or rebound. Bonner, Duncan and three guards is not a "big" lineup. When you see Bonner at small foward next to Duncan and Mahinmi then we can discuss big vs. small lineups.

I was thinking the other day: how a parker hill bonner dice duncan would work ?

[MrFundamental]

There are 3 other bigs that could start over Bonner in this order. Dice,Blair,Ian. SO don't tell me thart there are no other options other then bonner without going small.
Out of the last 5 games, small ball once, Bonner started 2, and Dice started 2. Hell, Dice has started more games then Bonner this month.


(yes Blair is a big, but he just has to be matched up correctly. Not the whole only big out on the floor like Pop likes to use him)
Blair is good, but he has to control his rookie mistakes and foul trouble if he wants to expect to be a starter.

[MrFundamental]

I was thinking the other day: how a parker hill bonner dice duncan would work ?
Depending on the team, I think Bonner/Dice would be too slow to guard the 3. Would be fun to see a modified triangle with that line up though.

[MrFundamental]

Fail. The gripe on starting Bonner is because Bonner's a jump shooting role player who has little athletic ability and can't block shots or rebound. Bonner, Duncan and three guards is not a "big" lineup. When you see Bonner at small foward next to Duncan and Mahinmi then we can discuss big vs. small lineups.
Since Dice has been blocking so many shots, right? Tell Ian to start performing in practice, maybe then he'll get some PT.

[Obstructed_View]

Since Dice has been blocking so many shots, right?

What does Antonio McDyess have to do with the conversation?

[Obstructed_View]

I was thinking the other day: how a parker hill bonner dice duncan would work ?

I'm not sure you can run a big guy at the three without shot blocking behind him. If you're going to dictate that matchup, you have to expect the opposing three to get to the paint on occasion. Having a 6'9" power forward backing up your 6'10" small forward might not cut it. Blair might be an option in the three spot simply because of what he adds with his rebounding and inside scoring.

[SilverNBlackCDN]

I am a fan that understands you cannot win the championship every damn year. I also understand that as suicidal everyone here is saying how awful we are that we are all of what 2-3 games behind Dallas? And 4 more losses than the second place team in the conference. I`m not sure if everyone has come to terms that the West is packed with talent and that there are 11 teams that you have to come out with your A game against every night. Yeah the Spurs are giving up some really ugly losses right now, but settle the hell down. As for Pop I want him and not some hack that has not coached in a year and could not make it on half a dozen other teams. Pop is a good coach, everyone makes mistakes, get over it.

And i`m sure i`m going to get someone talking about my post count but I have been coming here off and on for a few years I just never post and I did at one point with another account which I lost the login info for. Been bleeding Silver and Black since Strickland threw the blind pass out of bounds, when the Dream was beating the shit out of us, when Barkley dropped the winner from the top of the key....

[MrFundamental]

What does Antonio McDyess have to do with the conversation?
Considering he's started the most games at center this month, I figured you be worried about his lack of blocks and rebounding as well.

[MrFundamental]

I am a fan that understands you cannot win the championship every damn year. I also understand that as suicidal everyone here is saying how awful we are that we are all of what 2-3 games behind Dallas? And 4 more losses than the second place team in the conference. I`m not sure if everyone has come to terms that the West is packed with talent and that there are 11 teams that you have to come out with your A game against every night. Yeah the Spurs are giving up some really ugly losses right now, but settle the hell down. As for Pop I want him and not some hack that has not coached in a year and could not make it on half a dozen other teams. Pop is a good coach, everyone makes mistakes, get over it.
:clap

[Obstructed_View]

Considering he's started the most games at center this month, I figured you be worried about his lack of blocks and rebounding as well.

You said starting Bonner at center was a "big" lineup. You were wrong. And Dice has averaged nine rebounds a game this month, so I'm not worried about his rebounding at all. I'm worried why he's not starting though. Strange that you aren't.

[MrFundamental]

You said starting Bonner at center was a "big" lineup. You were wrong.
Bonner is a big, just because he shoots outside doesn't mean he isn't.


And Dice has averaged nine rebounds a game this month, so I'm not worried about his rebounding at all. I'm worried why he's not starting though. Strange that you aren't.Dice isn't averaging 9 a game, he's a hair over 7. And he started against Denver, didn't play well, and lost his spot. He'll probably get it back (and should) with Bonner not playing well either.

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner is a big, just because he shoots outside doesn't mean he isn't.

And just because he starts doesn't mean he's a starter. He's not now, nor has he ever been, an NBA center. There's just not any way around that.

[ElNono]

Bonner is a big, just because he shoots outside doesn't mean he isn't.

At least on the offensive end, he doesn't play big either. He will rarely get you an offensive board, because he camps on the perimeter. He can't play hi-lo, since he can't pass to save his life. He's a one trick pony.


Dice isn't averaging 9 a game, he's a hair over 7. And he started against Denver, didn't play well, and lost his spot. He'll probably get it back (and should) with Bonner not playing well either.

That's 4 more rebounds average than Matt. And Dice played great against Denver. I don't know what game you were watching... his jumpers at the start of the second half is what brought the lead back to 14 after they made a run. That game was over by the end of the 3rd.

[Obstructed_View]

Dice isn't averaging 9 a game, he's a hair over 7. And he started against Denver, didn't play well, and lost his spot. He'll probably get it back (and should) with Bonner not playing well either.

Yeah I made a math mistake somehow. Actually he's a bit over 8 since he only got a few mintues against Indiana.

By the way, how exactly did he play poorly against Denver? He had ten points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists in 16 minutes.

[MrFundamental]

By the way, how exactly did he play poorly against Denver? He had ten points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists in 16 minutes.
He had 4 boards after averaging ~10 the previous 3 games, he didn't play poor, just not as well as the previous 3.

[MrFundamental]

And just because he starts doesn't mean he's a starter. He's not now, nor has he ever been, an NBA center. There's just not any way around that.
Great.

[MrFundamental]

At least on the offensive end, he doesn't play big either. He will rarely get you an offensive board, because he camps on the perimeter. He can't play hi-lo, since he can't pass to save his life. He's a one trick pony.
He doesn't need to get an offensive board.



That's 4 more rebounds average than Matt.
And still not double digits.


And Dice played great against Denver. I don't know what game you were watching... his jumpers at the start of the second half is what brought the lead back to 14 after they made a run. That game was over by the end of the 3rd.
10/4/3 is good, but as I said, not as well as is his previous 3 if we are worried about rebounding.

[ElNono]

He doesn't need to get an offensive board.

Sure he does. That's what bigs do, they rebound, among other things.


And still not double digits.

Still better than Bonner.


10/4/3 is good, but as I said, not as well as is his previous 3 if we are worried about rebounding.

That's why we look at career/season averages and not the sample size of 2 or 3 games. There, he's still better than Bonner, by about 3 rebounds per game.

[MrFundamental]

Sure he does. That's what bigs do, they rebound, among other things.
Sure, some do, and others don't need to. That's why there is TD.


Still better than Bonner.Great, good for Dice, his mediocre rebounding is better then a slow shooting 6' 10" player!


That's why we look at career/season averages and not the sample size of 2 or 3 games. There, he's still better than Bonner, by about 3 rebounds per game.Great, that's still mediocre for why we brought him in.


The fact of the matter is Bonner shouldn't be starting, but for how poor McDyess has been this year, neither should he. We need one of those two to step it up for the rest of the year and give Pops a reason to play them. McDyess has started to bring it together with a decent 2nd half of January and decent month of Feb, yet he's not the youngest on the team by any means. As long as Bonner plays a decent ~10-15 minutes a game I wouldn't mind bringing Dice off the bench to start Bonner a couple games a month and then shorten those starts closer to playoff time.

[ElNono]

Sure, some do, and others don't need to. That's why there is TD.

Good bigs do. TD can rarely do it alone anymore.


Great, good for Dice, his mediocre rebounding is better then a slow shooting 6' 10" player!

Exactly. That's why less mediocre should be starting over completely mediocre.


Great, that's still mediocre for why we brought him in.

What did we bring him in for, in your opinion?

[MrFundamental]

Good bigs do.
So what do you think the average rebounding for a "good big" should be? >5, >7, >10?


Exactly. That's why less mediocre should be starting over completely mediocre.I agree, but at the same time, Bonner has shown streaks of less suckiness, I think his injury killed him.


What did we bring him in for, in your opinion?We brought him in because we thought we could pull a 10/10 (or at least a solid 10/9) from him, while also providing solid D. What else would we have brought him in for?

[ElNono]

So what do you think the average rebounding for a "good big" should be? >5, >7, >10?

A great big will give you double digits. A good big will give you 7-10, an average big will give you 4-6, a guard will give you 0-3.


I agree, but at the same time, Bonner has shown streaks of less suckiness, I think his injury killed him.

He came off the bench before the injury, which is the role he played better at. And his career average is 3.5 rebounds/game... you know what you're going to get with Matt.


To take a rebounding edge off TDs shoulders, give us that mid-range jumper, and guard physical 4/5s. What else would we have brought him in for?

I would add spell minutes for TD so he could be fresh in the postseason. He averaged 30mpg last season. Obviously, it's not Antonio's decision to play less minutes.

[MrFundamental]

A great big will give you double digits. A good big will give you 7-10, an average big will give you 4-6, a guard will give you 0-3.
It's a good thing Bonner is average ~4 then, huh?


He came off the bench before the injury, which is the role he played better at. And his career average is 3.5 rebounds/game... you know what you're going to get with Matt.
Great, he sucks at rebounding, are we going to start setting up Dice behind the 3 pt line?


I would add spell minutes for TD so he could be fresh in the postseason. He averaged 30mpg last season. Obviously, it's not Antonio's decision to play less minutes.
That too, but that comes at playing at a consistently high level, which it seems like he's starting to turn the corner on.

[ElNono]

It's a good thing Bonner is average ~4 then, huh?

He's between average and mediocre. You shouldn't expect anything more than that from Bonner. And no, if you pretend to play defense consistently, it's not a good thing. As bad as both Dice and Blair have been, they still manage to grab almost twice as many rebounds in the same time.


Great, he sucks at rebounding, are we going to start setting up Dice behind the 3 pt line?

No, we're not. You just said we brought him here to take his long jumper. He has. He actually has shot over 50% for the season. Duncan played just fine when Bonner was injured, which pretty much dispels the myth that he needs a 3 point shooting big with him.


That too, but that comes at playing at a consistently high level, which it seems like he's starting to turn the corner on.

We haven't played at a high level with any lineup. But within that mess, he has played better than any other alternative, including Bonner and including small ball.

[MrFundamental]

He's between average and mediocre. You shouldn't expect anything more than that from Bonner. And no, if you pretend to play defense consistently, it's not a good thing. As bad as both Dice and Blair have been, they still manage to grab almost twice as many rebounds in the same time.
Good, and they don't shoot 3s. So since they are grabbing so many boards, tell me again why Bonner has to?


We haven't played at a high level with any lineup. But within that mess, he has played better than any other alternative, including Bonner and including small ball.
Up until recently, no he hasn't.

[ElNono]

Good, and they don't shoot 3s. So since they are grabbing so many boards, tell me again why Bonner has to?

I'm not going to explain the game of basketball to you, Mr Fundamental.
If you don't know why bigs primary responsibility is to rebound, then you need a lot of reading to do.


Up until recently, no he hasn't.

Define recently? Matt Bonner has either been unavailable or has sucked since mid-December...

[Chomag]

Good, and they don't shoot 3s. So since they are grabbing so many boards, tell me again why Bonner has to?

Sorry, but this analogy fails on so many levels. When the game of basketball was invented there was a reason why positions were made unless your playing a game of street-ball of course. Different positions have different tasks to make the whole machine run.

Here I'll help with a refresher:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_various_positions_in_basketball
Basketball Positions


Typically, there are five (5) main positions: two guards, two forwards, and a center. By rule, there is nothing that any one of these positions can do that the others cannot. But they all have traditional "roles" which they usually adhere to. They are listed below.
However, note that many basketball coaches tend to simplify their offense by starting five players who are either wings or posts. Posts play around the basket, and usually get the ball when they're already in a position to score. Wings are ball-handlers with a better outside shooting ability, usually, or at least have the skill to take their defender off the dribble and get to the basket for a closer shot.

Point Guard

Generally the shortest and fastest players in the team. They are often the best at dribbling and therefore they are often called upon to bring the ball up the court on offense while the rest of the players get into their positions. They are often the leader on the floor, calling out plays, and controlling the tempo of the game. They have the ball in their hands the most out of any position.


Point Guards are usually the shortest players. They have excellent dribbling and usually play point and on the wings. Should be a good passer and a very good dribbler. Able to use both hands evenly. Cannot be selfish. Sets up the offense.


They aren't always the smallest- Note, Michael Jordan was a guard and he was 6 feet 6 inches tall and he played the point guard position sometimes


Point guards are usually the ones that handle the ball. They bring it up and down the court and call the plays. They are essentially the quarterback of basketball.


There are two distinctly different point guards: those who are score-first, pass-second and those who are pass-first and score-second. Allen Iverson is the score-first point guard, while Steve Nash is the pass-first point guard.


Examples of a point guard: Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Mike Bibby
Shooting Guard

Usually taller than the point guard. Often these players are the best shooters from longer distances. They are also expected to be very fast and need to be able to dribble well.


The back-up ball handler, usually better shooters (hence the name).


The job of the shooting guard is to get open and find a shot or find another open player to keep the ball moving.


Usually one of three types of shooting guards: The cutter and slasher, who gets dunks and layups for most of the points; The scorer, who can score in so many ways, often takes tough and contested shots; and the shooter, who love to hit jump shots. Examples of each: Kobe is a scorer, Ronnie Brewer is a slasher, and J.J. Redick is the shooter.


Example of a shooting guard: Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Tracy McGrady, J.J. Redick
Small Forward

Vary in mold. Taller than shooting guards but not as big as power forwards, these players are often very versatile, and can either shoot well from long range or get near the basket and get rebounds, etc.


Forwards are some of smallest players on the team. Usually plays around the wing or corner and usually drives along the baseline. Should be a solid rebounder. A good runner. A hard driver and a good passer.


Very much like shooting guard, usually starts lower on court.


Example of a small forward: LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Larry Bird
Power Forward

The next biggest player. They traditionally do not stray out and shoot long shots but play near the painted area and by the basket, trying for short-range shots and layups. Good power forwards are also very good at rebounding. Recently in the NBA many power forwards have emerged and can shoot three pointers very well.


Forwards fight under the net to get open for an easy lay up. They are post players and are usually taller than the guards.


Usually larger players (hence the name); starts low with small forward.


Example of a power forward: Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett
Center (Centre)

Usually the tallest and slowest players on the team. Their primary jobs are to get rebounds and score points when close the basket. They are rarely expected to dribble the ball much nor shoot from more than 15 feet away. Some centers are very dominant at scoring from in close while many others only score a handful of points per game. The best players at blocking shots on defense are often centers.


The center stays around the paint, which is the colored part of the floor around the basket. Should be a solid rebounder and a good inside shooter.


The center has to be able to move around and help move the ball and occasionally shoot. For the most part they are very helpful on defense.


The center is the biggest or strongest player, and is usually interchangeable with power forward.


Example of a center: Shaquille O'Neal.


Player positions can also be referred to by numbers: the point guard(pg) is the 1, the shooting guard(sg) is the 2 guard, the small forward(sf) is the 3, the power forward(pf)is the 4 and the center(c) is the 5.

[MrFundamental]

I'm not going to explain the game of basketball to you, Mr Fundamental.
If you don't know why bigs primary responsibility is to rebound, then you need a lot of reading to do.
Wow, do you think woman only belong in the kitchen too? Outdated opinions sure hurt a lot of people. We should tell Dirk that his primary responsibility is to rebound and not take all those pesky shots.


Define recently? Matt Bonner has either been unavailable or has sucked since mid-December...
And Dice hasn't played well until mid-January.

[MrFundamental]

Sorry, but this analogy fails on so many levels. When the game of basketball was invented there was a reason why positions were made unless your playing a game of street-ball of course. Different positions have different tasks to make the whole machine run.
Do you think all NBA coaches follow the Wiki? :lmao

Are you going to forward that on to Phil and tell him to quit having Odom bring the ball down the court? Or are you going to tell Dirk to plant his ass in the paint because "Power Forward The next biggest player. They traditionally do not stray out and shoot long shots but play near the painted area and by the basket, trying for short-range shots and layups."

[Chomag]

Do you think all NBA coaches follow the Wiki? :lmao

Are you going to forward that on to Phil and tell him to quit having Odom bring the ball down the court?

MRfundamental, isn't the word fundamental a bit of an oxymoron with you then? Or, do you know the meaning of that word.

[Chomag]

Do you think all NBA coaches follow the Wiki? :lmao

Are you going to forward that on to Phil and tell him to quit having Odom bring the ball down the court? Or are you going to tell Dirk to plant his ass in the paint because "Power Forward The next biggest player. They traditionally do not stray out and shoot long shots but play near the painted area and by the basket, trying for short-range shots and layups."

If you do have a problem with WIKI thats fine it was just one example. I can post about 100 more links about it if you like. Or you could just google up "basketball positions" and research it yourself.

[ElNono]

Wow, do you think woman only belong in the kitchen too?

If her job description is to be in the kitchen, then yeah, I think she belongs there.


Outdated opinions sure hurt a lot of people.

They do?
How?
And what authority you have exactly to claim you know anything about other people's opinions?


We should tell Dirk that his primary responsibility is to rebound and not take all those pesky shots.

Are you saying that Dirk is not a good rebounder? His 8.5/game look good to me. On top of that, he's a great shooter.


And Dice hasn't played well until mid-January.

That's over a month now, Mr Recently.

...


This is too easy, TPark... come on, you can do better than this... :lmao

[MrFundamental]

MRfundamental, isn't the word fundamental a bit of an oxymoron with you then? Or, do you know the meaning of that word.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tim+duncan+mr.+fundamental

[MrFundamental]

If you do have a problem with WIKI thats fine it was just one example. I can post about 100 more links about it if you like. Or you could just google up "basketball positions" and research it yourself.
Whoopdie-fucking-doo, I can post a link that shoes Naismith used peach baskets to invent basketball, I guess we should fucking shoot at those in the pros.

[Chomag]

This is too easy, TPark... come on, you can do better than this... :lmao

He is in full Pop and FO damage control mode, I can understand. :lol

[Chomag]

Whoopdie-fucking-doo, I can post a link that shoes Naismith used peach baskets to invent basketball, I guess we should fucking shoot at those in the pros.

Now you are just being plain stupid....

[MrFundamental]

Are you saying that Dirk is not a good rebounder? His 8.5/game look good to me. On top of that, he's a great shooter.
His role for his team is to primarily rebound?


That's over a month now, Mr Recently.
Holy shit semantics. "Recently" is a subjective word.



This is too easy, TPark... come on, you can do better than this... :lmao
Dude, I'm not this guy you keep bringing up, cut the shit. If you want to have a legit conversation about players, lets do it, you just seem to be butt-hurt however because I didn't think we should keep Ratliff.

[MrFundamental]

Now you are just being plain stupid....
And you're being fucking dense if you think that current NBA professionals can't play multiple positions or that everyone's role is strictly defined. Hell, LeBron could start at 1-5 for most teams in the league. Are you saying Brown should limit him because of some basic definition of positions?

[ElNono]

His role for his team is to primarily rebound?

That's one of his primary roles, and he does a good job at it.
Are you implying Dallas would be better if Dirk didn't rebound the ball?



Holy shit semantics. "Recently" is a subjective word.

No, recently is an adverb, which means (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/recently) 'not long ago'


Dude, I'm not this guy you keep bringing up, cut the shit. If you want to have a legit conversation about players, lets do it, you just seem to be butt-hurt however because I didn't think we should keep Ratliff.

U mad? :lmao
Again, you bring the weak shit, you get called out for it.

[MrFundamental]

That's one of his primary roles, and he does a good job at it.
Are you implying Dallas would be better if Dirk didn't rebound the ball?
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if it is the big mans primary (your words) job to rebound, that Dirk shouldn't be scoring points but rather he should be worried about rebounding the ball.


No, recently is an adverb, which means (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/recently) 'not long ago'Jesus, you are so fucking stupid. Do you know what "subjective" means, and how it pertains to the English language? http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/subjective_objective.html
(http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/subjective_objective.html)
A start.



U mad? :lmao
Again, you bring the weak shit, you get called out for it.Fuck, same tired line. Should I start saying that for your lack of knowledge on subjective terms?

[ElNono]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if it is the big mans primary (your words) job to rebound, that Dirk shouldn't be scoring points but rather he should be worried about rebounding the ball.

I said primary. Do you know what primary means? I'll give you a hint, it does not mean only...


Jesus, you are so fucking stupid. Do you know what "subjective" means, and how it pertains to the English language?

I do know what subjective means.
So, your opinion is that over a month is not long ago?


Fuck, same tired line. Should I start saying that for your lack of knowledge on subjective terms?

That's a logical fallacy. Step up your game, Mr Fundamental...

[Brazil]

Depending on the team, I think Bonner/Dice would be too slow to guard the 3. Would be fun to see a modified triangle with that line up though.

at least we would try something different, maybe a parker hill bonner Ian Tim would be more efficient because Ian can run with hill and tp to stop the fast break.

Anyway I would prefer loosing like that instead of loosing with a tp hill bogans RJ Tim lineup

[MrFundamental]

I said primary. Do you know what primary means? I'll give you a hint, it does not mean only...Yes, I know it doesn't mean "second focus", unless of course you think Dirks primary focus is rebounding. :lol




I do know what subjective means.
So, your opinion is that over a month is not long ago?
No, I said it for my own fucking health. (Again, sarcasm, since you're a little slow)


That's a logical fallacy. Step up your game, Mr Fundamental...
Please tell me what fallacy that is. I would love to hear that.

at least we would try something different, maybe a parker hill bonner Ian Tim would be more efficient because Ian can run with hill and tp to stop the fast break.

Anyway I would prefer loosing like that instead of loosing with a tp hill bogans RJ Tim lineup
I would prefer not to lose at all ;)

[Brazil]

I would prefer not to lose at all ;)

We all agree but if at the end you are condamned to loose the minimum you can do is trying and putting a parker hill bogans RJ tim lineup is not trying.