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Nbadan
05-01-2005, 05:21 AM
In mid-2004, when gas was still $1.30 a gallon, I made a prediction that gas would rise to $4 per gallon and it wouldn't be long before we get there. Of course, I was scoofed at and ridiculed, but what I didn't predict at that time were some of the ramifications that our society would have to deal with because of the continuious surge in fuel prices. Fortunately for all of us, or not, Michael Ventura of the Austin Chronicle (http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2005-04-29/cols_ventura.html) offers us a glimpse into our most likely future...


America is over. America is like Wile E. Coyote after he's run out a few paces past the edge of the cliff – he'll take a few more steps in midair before he looks down. Then, when he sees that there's nothing under him, he'll fall. Many Americans suspect that they're running on thin air, but they haven't looked down yet. When they do ...

Former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Paul Volcker, a pillar of the Establishment with access to economic information beyond our reach, wrote recently: "Circumstances seem to me as dangerous and intractable as any I can remember. ... What really concerns me is that there seems to be so little willingness or capacity to do anything about it" (quoted in The Economist, April 16, p.12). Volcker chooses words carefully: "dangerous and intractable," "willingness or capacity." He's saying: The situation is probably beyond our powers to remedy.

Gas prices can only go up. Oil production is at or near peak capacity. The U.S. must compete for oil with China, the fastest-growing colossus in history. But the U.S. also must borrow $2 billion a day to remain solvent, nearly half of that from China and her neighbors, while they supply most of our manufacturing ("Benson's Economic and Market Trends," quoted in Asia Times Online) – so we have no cards to play with China, even militarily. (You can't war with the bankers who finance your army and the factories that supply your stores.) China now determines oil demand, and the U.S. has no long-term way to influence prices. That means $4 a gallon by next spring, and rising – $5, then $6, probably $10 by 2010 or thereabouts. Their economy can afford it; ours can't. We may hobble along with more or less the same way of life for the next dollar or so of hikes, but at around $4 America changes. Drastically.

The "exburbs" and the rural poor will feel it first and hardest. Exburbians moved to the farthest reaches of suburbia for cheap real estate, willing to drive at least an hour each way to work. Many live marginally now. What happens when their commute becomes prohibitively expensive, just as interest rates and inflation rise, while their property values plummet? Urban real estate will go up, so they won't be able to live near their jobs – and there's nowhere else to go. In addition, thanks to Congress' recent shameless activity, bankruptcy is no longer an option for many. What happens to these people? Exburb refugees. A modern Dust Bowl.

For the rural poor it's even worse. They are the poorest among us, with no assets and few skills; they earn the lowest nonimmigrant wages in America, and they must drive. When gas hits $4, their already below-the-margin life will be unsustainable. They'll have no choice but to be refugees and join in the modern Dust Bowl migration. So, too, will people who live where people were never intended to live in such numbers – places like Phoenix and Vegas, unlivable without air conditioning and water transport (energy prices will rise across the board, regular brownouts, blackouts, and faucet-drips will be "the new normal" everywhere). In the desert cities, real estate will plunge, thousands will be ruined, most will leave – while all over the country folks will have to get used to "hot" and "cold" again.

But where will the new refugees go, and what will they do when they get there? They will migrate to the more livable cities, where rents are already unreasonable and social services are already strained, and where the new refugees will compete with immigrants for the lowest-level housing and jobs. Immigration issues will intensify to hysteria. Native-born Americans will clamor for work that only legal and illegal aliens do now. In a culture as prone to violence as ours, that will probably get ugly.

Meanwhile, suburbs and cities will be in various states of chaos, depending on their infrastructure. As inflation and interest rates rise, and the real estate bubble bursts, millions will see their assets plunge precipitously. In five years, many who are now well-off will live as the marginal live today, while the marginal will sink into poverty. With gas at $4-plus a gallon, real estate values will depend on nearness to working centers and access to transportation. As has already happened in Manhattan, the well-off will head for what are now slums, and the slum-dwellers will go God-knows-where. Places with decent rail service will be prime. Places without rail service will be in deep trouble.

One key to America's future will be: How quickly can we build or rebuild heavy and light rail? And where will we get the money to do it? Railroads are the cheapest transport, the easiest to sustain, and the only solution to a post-automobile America. (For reasons I haven't space to detail, hybrid cars and alternative energy won't cut it, if by "cut it" one means retaining anything like the present standard of living. See James Howard Kunstler's "The Long Emergency" on Rolling Stone's Web site. Also check Mike Ruppert's site www.fromthewilderness.com and the documentary The End of Suburbia.) A massive investment in railroad infrastructure could offer jobs to the unskilled and skilled alike, absorb much of the inevitable population displacement, and create a new social equilibrium 10 or 15 years down the line. Old RR cities like Grand Junction, Colo.; Amarillo, Texas; and Albuquerque, N.M., could become vital centers, offering new lives for the displaced. Railroads are key, but the question is: how to finance them?

There's only one section of our economy that has that kind of money: the military budget. The U.S. now spends more on its military than all other nations combined. A sane transit to a post-automobile America will require a massive shift from military to infrastructure spending. That shift would be supported by our bankers in China and Europe (that is, they would continue to finance our debt) because it's in their interests that we regain economic viability. What's not in their interests is that we remain a military superpower.

And that's where things get really interesting. The question becomes:

Can America face reality? If the government responds to the coming changes by attempting to remain a superpower no matter what, there is no way to underestimate the harm. The numbers speak for themselves. Soon we'll no longer have the resources to remain a military superpower and sustain a livable society that is anything like what we know today. It happened to England; it happened to Russia; it's about to happen to us. England sustained the transformation more or less gracefully; it lost its dominance while retaining its essential character. Russia is still in a period of transformation, but has remained a player thanks to its oil reserves. Europe in general – France, Germany, Italy, and Spain (all world powers in the fairly recent past) – is creating a post-national society, the most experimental form of governance since America's revolution. We have no appreciable oil, and we no longer have a manufacturing base. So what will the United States do? Sanely recognize its declining status and act accordingly, or make one last ignoble stab to retain its position by force?

Half a century ago James Baldwin wrote: "Confronted with the impossibility of remaining faithful to one's beliefs, and the equal impossibility of becoming free of them, one can be driven to the most inhuman excesses." Americans believe they're "No. 1," destined to lead the world. That is the America that's over. If we insist on that illusion, then this world is in for tough times. We will neither hold on to what we have nor create what we might have, but we will wreak untold harm (if we don't destroy the species altogether). Or we can face and embrace reality. And that reality is: There is no such thing as "No. 1" ... there is no such thing as an ideal destined country that is better than any other ... there is only us, doing the best we can, trying to live free and sanely, within limits that are about to become only too clear. Our glory days are done. What's next?

Remember, we're not talking about the far future. We're talking about the next decade.

No country gets two centuries anymore. The 21st will be China's century. That's what $4-plus a gallon means, and nothing can stop it. So: How will we change? But the question "How will we change?" is really the question "How will I change?" Because history isn't a spectator sport. It's you and me. Everything depends on whether we side with reality or illusion. Face reality, and we have a chance. Cling to illusion, and we are lost. The America we've known is over – very soon. The America we can create is up to us.

The Ressurrected One
05-01-2005, 06:28 AM
This is the same Volcker that jut ran an inept investigative committee, right?

Aggie Hoopsfan
05-01-2005, 12:57 PM
:lol

Yeah, a little oil crisis is going to kill this country when we can resort to nuclear power, hydrogen, etc., not to mention some of the brightest scientists in the history of mankind being at our disposal.

Does it rain on you every day, Dan?

Spurminator
05-01-2005, 01:29 PM
You were scoffed and ridiculed because you sdaids it would happen by the end of 2004. It didn't. Ridicule warranted.

It won't happen by the end of 2005 either... not that that's a bold statement.

Nbadan
05-01-2005, 02:14 PM
You were scoffed and ridiculed because you sdaids it would happen by the end of 2004. It didn't. Ridicule warranted.

You keep saying this, but I never said it would happen before the end of 2004. I said then that the war on terrorism would be a leading contributor to the price increase, as it is now, the cause seems to be high-demand and shrinking resources.

The Ressurrected One
05-01-2005, 02:29 PM
You keep saying this, but I never said it would happen before the end of 2004. I said then that the war on terrorism would be a leading contributor to the price increase, as it is now, the cause seems to be high-demand and shrinking resources.
And oil is back down below $50.00 a barrell and dropping...

Hook Dem
05-01-2005, 07:07 PM
Wrong as usual Dan!!!!! :lol

scott
05-01-2005, 11:09 PM
And oil is back down below $50.00 a barrell and dropping...

It will rise back above $55 before it falls to $40. I expect $50-60 to be the normal trading range in the near term (1-2 years at least).

Jekka
05-02-2005, 10:18 AM
:lol

Yeah, a little oil crisis is going to kill this country when we can resort to nuclear power, hydrogen, etc., not to mention some of the brightest scientists in the history of mankind being at our disposal.

Does it rain on you every day, Dan?

Those scientists are incredibly underfunded because people as a whole do not want to waste their money on paying for research when there is still gas available. Alternative energy plans won't be put into effect until the gas prices go high enough to make people want other resources unless something big changes, and it will take a lot of time after that to get alternative sources of energy set up for practical use. You make it sound so easy.

And where do you think nuclear energy waste is going to go? Right now it's going to reservation land - ask the Western Shoshones why they have some of the highest cancer and birth defect rates in the nation.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 10:21 AM
Those scientists are incredibly underfunded because people as a whole do not want to waste their money on paying for research when there is still gas available. Alternative energy plans won't be put into effect until the gas prices go high enough to make people want other resources unless something big changes, and it will take a lot of time after that to get alternative sources of energy set up for practical use. You make it sound so easy.

And where do you think nuclear energy waste is going to go? Right now it's going to reservation land - ask the Western Shoshones why they have some of the highest cancer and birth defect rates in the nation.

all the fire water?

:lol

Jekka
05-02-2005, 10:39 AM
all the fire water?

:lol

Yes, Clandestino, it's really fucking funny when your kids are the ones that are developmentally challenged.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 10:51 AM
Yes, Clandestino, it's really fucking funny when your kids are the ones that are developmentally challenged.

could constant alcoholism also be a factor for those rates? i think so...

Jekka
05-02-2005, 11:08 AM
could constant alcoholism also be a factor for those rates? i think so...

No, genius - for one, a good portion of alcoholics on reservations are the men who are not the ones that carry the children to term. Also, studies by research psychologists have found that Native children growing up closer to uranium mines, detonation and storage sites develop much much more slowly than native kids that live farther away. Nuclear devices that have been detonated on this country's land have been on reservation land, because the government claims that "no one lives there".

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 11:12 AM
i guess they have no say so in their lives and can't move. just like the mexican immigrants from mexico... oh wait, the mexican immigrants do move and choose to try to change their life for the better...

MannyIsGod
05-02-2005, 11:17 AM
i guess they have no say so in their lives and can't move. just like the mexican immigrants from mexico... oh wait, the mexican immigrants do move and choose to try to change their life for the better...
It's like a motorized mouth that has no brain.

Jekka
05-02-2005, 11:19 AM
i guess they have no say so in their lives and can't move. just like the mexican immigrants from mexico... oh wait, the mexican immigrants do move and choose to try to change their life for the better...

I could say that reservations are just as much a ghetto as any other poor minority neighborhood, but with a higher suicide rate, but it would be wasted on you, Clandestino. You have absolutely no compassion for any member of the human race except maybe yourself - and it doesn't make you admirably tough, it makes you callous and disrespectful. I refuse to hit my head against a wall for you anymore.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 11:22 AM
my family has owned a business for over 35 years. we have hired many, many immigrants. i've seen them come with only the clothes on their backs to buying homes. i have personally witnessed this many times.. i know it can be done. it takes hard work and many are not willing to do it.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 11:23 AM
i refuse to understand why you and manny make excuses for people totally capable of working.

MannyIsGod
05-02-2005, 11:27 AM
i refuse to understand why you and manny make excuses for people totally capable of working.
:lmao

Nuclear waste on your homeland makes you a lazy alcoholic injun. Classic.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 11:29 AM
:lmao

Nuclear waste on your homeland makes you a lazy alcoholic injun. Classic.

the fucker could move is my point.

MannyIsGod
05-02-2005, 11:34 AM
the fucker could move is my point.
Which is what makes you an idiot, or at the very least incrediblly ignorant about Native Americans.

But sure, I guess you have a point. I just hope you don't complain when the government drops nuclear waste near you. I hope you just pick up and move. Because well, you can.

Jekka
05-02-2005, 11:36 AM
Your Javert signature is all too apropos.

MannyIsGod
05-02-2005, 11:38 AM
i refuse to understand why you and manny make excuses for people totally capable of working.
:lol

That cracks me up even more. Thats like me saying I refuse to fly.

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 11:41 AM
i guess you two should stop going to school and stop trying to get ahead in life bc you seem to think what happens to you is out of your control.

mookie2001
05-02-2005, 12:09 PM
It's like a motorized mouth that has no brain.

ROFL

the computer has many settings but its mostly on "overtly-but-passively-prejudice", and "counterproductively-ultra-conservative"

Clandestino
05-02-2005, 12:17 PM
ROFL

the computer has many settings but its mostly on "overtly-but-passively-prejudice", and "counterproductively-ultra-conservative"

nah, it is on, "work hard for a living, don't ask for handouts, and don't make bullshit excuses"

why is that too hard to ask?

Extra Stout
05-02-2005, 12:27 PM
Leftists seem to enjoy these doomsday scenarios. It's a dream... to see all that suffering, and then to bellow out, "I told you so, I told you so..." Normal people daydream of falling in love, or of living the good life, or of visiting some paradise, or some other kind of fun. Leftists daydream about the collapse of American society and widespread suffering among millions.

This is because they are evil, deranged creatures. They really hate America that much. They want this nation to fail. Fuck them.

But yes, the price of oil is going to continue to increase, from what I understand up to a new equilibrium of $80 a barrel, which means we'll have to get used to $3-$4 a gallon for gas.

And yes, it will get expensive for people who live far away from work, and will gradually lead to denser urban areas, smaller vehicles, and difficult lifestyle changes.

The days of trucks clogging up the interstates may end, but there won't exactly be a lot of people who can afford to drive long distances to enjoy it.

Our standard of living likely will be eroded to some degree, especially compared to the halcyon days of the 1990's.

But I don't see a collapse imminent. A lot of whining, yes. We're not as resilient a generation as our grandparents were. They withstood a collapse.

Nbadan
05-02-2005, 02:07 PM
This is because they are evil, deranged creatures. They really hate America that much. They want this nation to fail. Fuck them.

I picture Progressives more as those that are trying to save us from ourselves.

Let me ask you a few questions...

Who's runaway spending has put this nation in insurmountable debt?

Who got us into a cluster-fuck war for which there seems no end?

Who has made families lives more difficult to recover financially from after a tragic accident or just going to fight for your country while at the same time protecting the assets of the very rich?

Who initiated tax cuts for the rich that have done little to spur the economy, but guarantee that we will all be paying much higher taxes in the near future?

Who has used the war on terrorism as their own private propoganda tool? What happened to that stupid color warning chart anyway? Hey, I haven't seen that thing since..well, after the election.

It's not that Progressives are all dark and hate this country, but we see what the Republican leadership is doing to this country, talking about protecting freedom and liberty world-wide while at the same time restricting it at home. Complaining about obstructionists judges while removing the checks and balances that have made our government tolerable. Slowly eroding our privacy, our liberty and our freedom, and guess what? We are pissed off.

mookie2001
05-02-2005, 02:43 PM
Leftists seem to enjoy these doomsday scenarios. It's a dream... to see all that suffering, and then to bellow out, "I told you so, I told you so..." Normal people daydream of falling in love, or of living the good life, or of visiting some paradise, or some other kind of fun. Leftists daydream about the collapse of American society and widespread suffering among millions.

This is because they are evil, deranged creatures. They really hate America that much. They want this nation to fail. Fuck them.



the knowledge
republicans= normal, love loving, life loving, vacation loving
non-republicans= abnormal, love hating, life hating, vacation hating, america hating

i finally see the light! america would be such a better place if we all had the same beliefs, forget about why this nation was founded and the constitution. and if those america haters dont like it, they can GIIIIIT OUT!!!!!!

youll never see a dam liberal taking a vacation, they hate america too much.

Extra Stout
05-02-2005, 02:53 PM
this applies to roughly 50% of the american population?

you've been watching too much Foxnews

Leftist <> Democrat.

Most liberals are just Americans who come to different political conclusions but who still love their homeland and want the country and its citizens to do well.

To me a "leftist" is one so far out there that his ideology is disproven by the success of America. So he wants America to be destroyed so that his anti-capitalist, anti-dynamic beliefs are vindicated.

These people come in two flavors -- those too cowardly to act on their beliefs, and therefore deserve scorn, and those willing to act on their beliefs, who are therefore traitors deserving of death.

Leftists are the fringe, like theocrats on the right. They carry weight in their party that far exceeds their numbers. If the Democrats were controlled by the populists instead of these creeps, then we'd have two legitimate parties in this country, and the Repubs would have to behave.

Nbadan
05-02-2005, 03:35 PM
These people come in two flavors -- those too cowardly to act on their beliefs, and therefore deserve scorn, and those willing to act on their beliefs, who are therefore traitors deserving of death.

:rolleyes

This like saying all Righties come in two flavors:

Those that will use Religion to form a theocracy over the rest of us, and those which are of the plain vanilla fascist variety.

I think we know which group Stout belongs too.

Extra Stout
05-03-2005, 09:09 AM
:rolleyes

This like saying all Righties come in two flavors:

Those that will use Religion to form a theocracy over the rest of us, and those which are of the plain vanilla fascist variety.

I think we know which group Stout belongs too.Che Guevara was killed, and rightly so. He acted on his beliefs. If you did anything other than bitch and post articles and call people fascists, there'd be a bullet with your name on it as well.

However, pretty much all the lefties in the U.S. are pantywaist pussies who work themselves into a lather of "outrage" and then complain how if this were Europe, somebody would have done something. Oh, wait, now that there's the Internet, they can comment on a blog and donate some money to some other people who also will do nothing other than piss and moan.

But, you know, lefties can't risk getting roughed up a little because there's an art show at the local gallery they have to look good for. Some lesbian is showing photographs of crucifixes shoved up her vagina or something.

And all you people do is drown out respectable folks who are left-of-center. Howard Dean once was a pro-business liberal governor who had some good ideas. Then the moonbats got a hold of him and he went insane. He's had to get out of the spotlight to find his bearings again, but I doubt he'll ever be the same. Populists like Russ Feingold are smart people who at least have ideas worth listening to, even if I disagree with a lot of them.

But none of that matters as long as folks like you drive the leftie grass-roots, because you simply are not acceptable in this country, because you hate what it stands for. You disgust me. The theocrats disgust me too, but you are worse.

Nbadan
05-03-2005, 11:17 AM
Che Guevara was killed, and rightly so. He acted on his beliefs. If you did anything other than bitch and post articles and call people fascists, there'd be a bullet with your name on it as well.

However, pretty much all the lefties in the U.S. are pantywaist pussies who work themselves into a lather of "outrage" and then complain how if this were Europe, somebody would have done something. Oh, wait, now that there's the Internet, they can comment on a blog and donate some money to some other people who also will do nothing other than piss and moan.

But, you know, lefties can't risk getting roughed up a little because there's an art show at the local gallery they have to look good for. Some lesbian is showing photographs of crucifixes shoved up her vagina or something.

And all you people do is drown out respectable folks who are left-of-center. Howard Dean once was a pro-business liberal governor who had some good ideas. Then the moonbats got a hold of him and he went insane. He's had to get out of the spotlight to find his bearings again, but I doubt he'll ever be the same. Populists like Russ Feingold are smart people who at least have ideas worth listening to, even if I disagree with a lot of them.

But none of that matters as long as folks like you drive the leftie grass-roots, because you simply are not acceptable in this country, because you hate what it stands for. You disgust me. The theocrats disgust me too, but you are worse.


WTF do you know about Che Guevera? Take a few minutes to look around, Castro is still flourishing in Cuba and Hugo Chavez has led a popular revolt in Venezula, and Putin has tightened the reigns in Russia. All three have taken over control of their nations most important resource - oil, and they are kicking out American companies. All three are, you could say, are pioneers of populists movements in their respective nations. All three treathen the economic and strategic interest of the U.S., but the U.S. isn't putting a bullet in their heads. Humm...I wonder why?

Also, this isn't the 1960-70's were the government goes around putting bullets in the head of the leaders of social movements like Martin Luther King, and John Lennon. Today if they don't like you, they just try and discredit you - just ask Dan Rather.

There are different levels of activism. Not all of them have to be born in front of a TV camera like the Terri Schiavo fiasco and the whole Minute Men protect farse by a bunch of lunatic, right-wing fanatics. In America, the best way to object is with your wallet. If you don't like the way Walmart treats their employees, then shop at Costco. If you don't like your clothes made with slave labor, then shop at a store like AI that sells only merchandise made in America. If you don't like being held hostage by Foreign countries and the oil conglomerates then buy a hybrid. If you think that your paying to much in taxes while the rich aren't paying enough, then elect a Democrat. There are always choices.

The last Democratic President was a populist, the next Democratic president will more than likely be a Southern Populist. Howard Dean, a Populist, is head of one of the most important seats in the Democratic Party, the DNC. Diane Feinstein, a populist, is so well liked that she got more votes than Ralph Nader in the last Presidential election as a write-in candidate. Populism is alive and well in the U.S. and after the American people wake up and realize what a moral, and financial mess the current Republican leadership has left our country in, all the lies, the back-room deals, the cronyism, the total sell out to corporate interest - I believe that the Democratic Party will have a long, long reign in National Government. Twenty years or more.

scott
05-04-2005, 10:03 PM
Oh the crazy things a discussion about gasoline prices will lead you to...

The Ressurrected One
05-04-2005, 10:10 PM
Oh the crazy things a discussion about gasoline prices will lead you to...
No kidding! By the way, paid $1.93 today at Wallyworld (3 cent discount with shopping card.)...

Spurminator
05-05-2005, 12:25 AM
Also, this isn't the 1960-70's were the government goes around putting bullets in the head of the leaders of social movements like Martin Luther King, and John Lennon.

Yeah, that Double Fantasy album threatened to tear down capitalism as we know it.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004WGEK.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Nbadan
05-05-2005, 01:39 AM
Yeah, that Double Fantasy album threatened to tear down capitalism as we know it.

Shit, there are more conspiracy theories out there about John Lennons murder than there are about Robert Kennedys. Some link Reagan, Nixon, Stephen King, Yoko Ono, Paul McCarthy, and yes, even Mark David Chapman. Just a few weeks before he was killed, Lennon resumed a politically active role again after taking a near 5 year hiatus from the public spotlight. Lennon had everything, money, power, fame, love, but the one thing he really had that made him dangerous to the powers that be, was a loyal, loyal following of soon-to-be baby boomers. The future political driving force of America.

The Ressurrected One
05-05-2005, 08:16 AM
Shit, there are more conspiracy theories out there about John Lennons murder than there are about Robert Kennedys. Some link Reagan, Nixon, Stephen King, Yoko Ono, Paul McCarthy, and yes, even Mark David Chapman. Just a few weeks before he was killed, Lennon resumed a politically active role again after taking a near 5 year hiatus from the public spotlight. Lennon had everything, money, power, fame, love, but the one thing he really had that made him dangerous to the powers that be, was a loyal, loyal following of soon-to-be baby boomers. The future political driving force of America.
Damn, are you subscribed to "We're Crazy Conspiracists Monthly?"

Useruser666
05-05-2005, 09:00 AM
Conspiracy MadLibs

Pick a president. (JFK)

Pick a decade. ('60's)

Pick a country. (Australia)

Pick a politcal party. (Green Party)

Pick a food. (fried chicken)

Pick a country. (China)

Ok, fill in the blanks:

Has anyone else here heard that JFK issued a secret order back in the '60s? Apparently Australia, had a deal with the Green Party to smuggle all the fried chicken out of China to the US. I don't know about you, but I believe it!

:lol