Did Cuban, Dirk, Kidd and Terry run a train on this guy's mom?

[Findog]

http://twitter.com/johnhollinger/status/9885717501

"Today's PER Diem: Not sold on new look Mavs just yet (Insider)"

[Findog]

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

He has the Mavs behind Phoenix, Boston, Portland, Zombie Sonics, Spurs and Hawks. Until yesterday he had them behind Miami. Umm, okay...

[endrity]

can someone post the insider article, I wanna see what he says, after the ASG break the Mavs have all the statistics he likes, nice margin of victory, offensive and defensive efficiency, victory against top teams. So why would he not like them?

[benefactor]

Meh. Having Hollinger's approval is like the ugly chick telling you you're cute.

[in2deep]

I don't see mavs beating lakers/cavs in a playoff series.

but they have a good chance vs. orlando/nuggets/utah/spurs

[Findog]

Even Charley Rosen, noted Phil Jackson jizz swallower and the king of all Dirk/Mavs haters, has admitted that the Mavs at least have an outside shot at beating the Lakers.


And that's a fair assessment: I still favor a healthy LA in a 7-game series over the Mavs, but Dallas has a shot at winning. Before the trade, no chance at doing anything other than maybe avoiding getting swept.



This is still bitterness by Hollinger after being called out by Cuban over the Harris/Kidd trade.



I thought that trade was a mistake in the run-up to it, but I am so glad to admit I was way off base.

[in2deep]

I don't see Spurs beating anyone in a playoff series.

this thread is not about the spurs. It's about the mavs not being in the top tier.

[endrity]

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

He has the Mavs behind Phoenix, Boston, Portland, Zombie Sonics, Spurs and Hawks. Until yesterday he had them behind Miami. Umm, okay...

I understand why in his power rankings they are that low, their margin of victory isn't great, and the big losses before ASG break still count quite a lot in his formula since they are part of the last 25% of the games the team has played.

But post-ASG this is a new team, and if he writes about them he should see only the numbers after the trade.

[Findog]

I don't see mavs beating lakers/cavs in a playoff series.


I'd put my money on the Lakers and Cavs in a series against Dallas, but they now have a chance to beat those teams. Not likely, but possible. They had no chance before the trade to do anything other than be second-round fodder. The ceiling before was a second-round exit.

[IronMexican]

this thread is not about the spurs. It's about the mavs not being in the top tier.

Jeff is back.

[Findog]

I understand why in his power rankings they are that low, their margin of victory isn't great, and the big losses before ASG break still count quite a lot in his formula since they are part of the last 25% of the games the team has played.

But post-ASG this is a new team, and if he writes about them he should see only the numbers after the trade.

Recent play is supposed to factor heavily, and before yesterday they had won seven straight games, had a higher strength of schedule rating, and a higher point differential than Miami, yet he still had the Heat above Dallas. Does that make sense?

[mavs>spurs2]

Hollinger is a douche, and he's pretty much been outed as a known dumbass by now. Does anyone still think his formulas and opinions matter? He's just like Stephen A. Smith, sometimes says dumb things for shock value. Neither one have any more basketball intelligence than your average spurstalk poster.

[pking]

Meh. Having Hollinger's approval is like the ugly chick telling you you're cute.

:lol

[in2deep]

If ppl are skeptical about the Mavericks because of past failures, fine. I have no problem with that.

But Hollinger claims he's unbiased and does everything solely by his formula. If you're looking at exclusively what they've done post-trade, there's no formula in the world that makes the Mavs look anything less than very impressive. Unless you're tricking up the numbers to get a rise out of Mavs fans.

only an idiot would truly beleive this theory

[endrity]

Yes, because by recent play he means the last 25% of the games played. And there is no discounting in how recent the games were. So the losses to Denver and Phx before ASG count the same in his formula as the wins against the Lakers and Orlando and Atlanta post ASG. As we play the rest of the season those losses will drop out of the "recent" conversation and the Mavs should jump up his ladder.

However, I have to read and see what he says about not liking the current team, since the current team post ASG has been fulfilling his statistical requirements for being considered a good team.

[mavs>spurs2]

only an idiot would truly beleive this theory

only a true idiot would take any of your posts seriously, which is why i've skipped over them rather than even trolling you. you are the typical, classical, cliche ignorant spur fan. go fuck yourself in the ass with a sawed off, puta

[in2deep]

only a true idiot would take any of your posts seriously, which is why i've skipped over them rather than even trolling you. you are the typical, classical, cliche ignorant spur fan. go fuck yourself in the ass with a sawed off, puta

(yawn) mavfans get so easily agitated

[mavs>spurs2]

(yawn)

then go to sleep bitch

[endrity]

will someone please post the article?

edit: no worries, found it another board!

[in2deep]

then go to sleep bitch

nice 12 year old comeback.

[mavs>spurs2]

is there any way to contact hollinger? findog, you should send him an email about the whole being ranked behind miami thing, present the facts, and see what this dumbass has to say :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

nice 12 year old comeback.

nice takes you have, i mean not just only in this thread, but in your entire spurstalk existence :toast

[mavs>spurs2]

:lol you should read his chats some time. any time anybody ever questions his system, he becomes the biggest butthurt little bitch about it.

it's like reminding Laker Fans about how they got ass raped by the Celtics.

:lmao where can i read these chats brah?

[Findog]

will someone please post the article?

edit: no worries, found it another board!

link?

[Findog]

Mavs contenders or pretenders?PER Diem: March 2, 2010Email Print Comments 0 By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
Archive


Glenn James/NBAE/Getty Images
Dallas is rolling after trading for Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood. But are they really title threats?

Behold, everyone, our new Western contender … but you might not want to look too closely.

With their eighth straight win Monday -- a streak that includes seven victories over playoff contenders -- the Dallas Mavericks eased past the Denver Nuggets into the No. 2 spot in the Western Conference. And the streak might not end any time soon. The Mavericks' next seven games look eminently winnable (home against Minnesota, Sacramento, New Jersey, New York and Chicago; at Chicago and Minnesota), which could have them riding a 15-game win streak when Boston visits March 20. Things will get significantly more difficult from there, but if Dallas takes care of business against the doormats, it should hang on to its second seed in the West.

Dallas' recent run coincides with a trade for Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood, leading one to wonder whether the Mavs have recast themselves as legitimate threats to win the conference.

Look a little deeper, however, and the Mavs' résumé isn't nearly as impressive. They have gone 8-1 since their trade with Washington on Feb. 13, but they have outscored their opposition by only 5.3 points per game during that time. In other words, during their best stretch of the season, they still haven't matched the scoring margin of elite teams such as the Cavs (plus-7.3), Lakers (plus-6.4) and Magic (plus-5.8), and they barely exceed the marks of the Celtics, Hawks, Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs.

The Mavs' winning streak has come against some difficult opposition, but some easy matchups -- home games against Indiana and a Dwyane Wade-less Miami team, for instance -- have produced close shaves. In fact, Dallas hasn't won a game by more than 10 points since Jan. 24.

Which takes us to the No. 1 item in my inbox at the moment: How do the Mavericks, who have the second-best record in the West and fourth-best in the league, rank a measly 12th in the Power Rankings?

Let's break down Dallas' body of work. Despite its impressive win-loss record, it has the league's 12th-best scoring margin at plus-2.25 points per game. Normally, a team with that margin would be 36-25; the Mavs are 40-21 thanks to freakishly good fortune in close games. (They're 15-5 in contests decided by five points or fewer.)

Dallas gets a boost in the daily Power Rankings from its schedule, which has been more difficult than league average, and its home-road differential (29 home games, 32 on the road) -- two factors that will even out in a hurry during the next seven games.

However, the other component factoring into the rankings is recent play. And in the most recent 25 percent of their schedule, the Mavs -- even with the win streak -- have an average scoring margin barely above par at plus-0.13.

That stretch includes a 36-point loss to Denver that could be relabeled as a loss to the schedule, as it came on the back end of a ridiculously unfair back-to-back after a game in Golden State. (I often wonder whether the NBA's schedule makers ever travel west of the Mississippi. Did they think that because Colorado was only two states away, it wouldn't be a long flight?)

But if you take the Denver debacle off the Mavericks' résumé, it still doesn't improve much. Dallas would have the league's 11th-best scoring margin on the season instead of the 12th, and its margin of victory in the past quarter of its schedule would be a still-unimpressive plus-2.13. Overall, the Mavs would be just 10th in the Power Rankings and still well behind the top nine teams. And, of course, this would be after giving them a major benefit of the doubt: They're not the only team to be victimized by unfortunate schedule arrangements.

Dig deeper, and still, nothing about the Mavs screams "contender." They rank 10th in offensive efficiency and 12th in defensive efficiency. Their offense is predicated on the lowest-percentage shot in the game, the long 2, and three Mavs (Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Terry and Butler) are among the league's leading practitioners of the shot. Sure, that trio converts from midrange more often than most, but it's still a difficult way to build a high-powered offense.

Thus, if the Mavs are to be legit, they will have to improve on defense. That's where the additions of Haywood and, to a lesser extent, DeShawn Stevenson, could help. But even if those two vault the Mavs all the way into the league's top five in defensive efficiency -- an unlikely occurrence -- they still would be on an even footing with only the West's other second-tier teams.

As a result, we're left to deal with one of the season's great paradoxes. With 40 wins in the bank and a favorable remaining schedule, Dallas is likely to attain the second seed in the West. Yet it has the statistical profile of a much lower contender, and even its post-trade win streak hasn't changed that outlook significantly.

I don't want to completely dismiss the Mavs' prospects because they could land home-court advantage for two playoff rounds, and I'd like to see them play a few more games with their new acquisitions. But despite the recent win streak, my outlook on Dallas really hasn't changed much. Until further notice, it's a pretty good team … but one that's unlikely to topple the three fantastic ones it would have to get past in the Western Conference playoffs.

[Ghazi]

i actually like the margin of victory statistic, and used it to argue the Mavs got better in 07-08 AFTER the Kidd trade but were simply unlucky in the close games.

but the mavs should only be judged by their post trade margin of victory... which is 5.3, which is good considering injuries and the level of competition, and can only get better from here on out because the schedule gets much lighter.

hollinger needs to eat his crow about the trade being a lateral move. Just watch the damn games and you can tell the Mavs are much improved.

[CubanMustGo]

Hollinger is a dick. All he does is parrot whatever his stupid stats say, no matter how out of touch with current reality they may be.

[dirk4mvp]

Hollinger's keyboard diarrhea

He's penalizing the Mavericks for not blowing everyone out? Is this college football or the NBA?

[in2deep]

Let's break down Dallas' body of work. Despite its impressive win-loss record, it has the league's 12th-best scoring margin at plus-2.25 points per game. Normally, a team with that margin would be 36-25; the Mavs are 40-21 thanks to freakishly good fortune in close games.


:lmao :lmao :lmao

[monosylab1k]

And what exactly is it about Utah that makes Hollinger knobslob them every year? Last year they were an 8 seed and he was trying to argue that they were still among the league's elite.

[mavsfan1000]

i actually like the margin of victory statistic, and used it to argue the Mavs got better in 07-08 AFTER the Kidd trade but were simply unlucky in the close games.

but the mavs should only be judged by their post trade margin of victory... which is 5.3, which is good considering injuries and the level of competition, and can only get better from here on out because the schedule gets much lighter.

hollinger needs to eat his crow about the trade being a lateral move. Just watch the damn games and you can tell the Mavs are much improved.
Do you like the On Court/Off Court +/- ratio of players per 48 minute average over a long period of time? In their short time here, Haywood and Butler have the best on court +/- on the team. They also had the best +/- for the Wizards. Kinda makes me excited. :)

[mavs>spurs2]

Do you like the On Court/Off Court +/- ratio of players per 48 minute average over a long period of time? In their short time here, Haywood and Butler have the best on court +/- on the team. They also had the best +/- for the Wizards. Kinda makes me excited. :)

Those stats can sometimes go a long way in registering things that aren't necessarily seen by the untrained eye. It makes sense because those guys always have such a positive influence when out on the court and Haywood's defense and rebounding alone is always a game changer. Contrarily, JJB must have the worst +/- of any other mav. The guy was pretty much the main reason we almost blew a 25 point lead vs NO. He's that bad, and part of it's not even his fault. Only Carlisle knows why he had him defending Collison for long stretches.

[badfish22]

Look a little deeper, however, and the Mavs' résumé isn't nearly as impressive. They have gone 8-1 since their trade with Washington on Feb. 13, but they have outscored their opposition by only 5.3 points per game during that time. In other words, during their best stretch of the season, they still haven't matched the scoring margin of elite teams such as the Cavs (plus-7.3), Lakers (plus-6.4) and Magic (plus-5.8), and they barely exceed the marks of the Celtics, Hawks, Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs.


what. the. fuck.

He criticizes the Mavs for not having as good of a scoring margin as the Lakers, the Magic, and the Hawks, when three of our wins in this streak have come against the Lakers, the Magic and the fucking Hawks. Where the fuck is the logic in that? This is stupid even for Hollinger.

[Findog]

what. the. fuck.

He criticizes the Mavs for not having as good of a scoring margin as the Lakers, the Magic, and the Hawks, when three of our wins in this streak have come against the Lakers, the Magic and the fucking Hawks. Where the fuck is the logic in that? This is stupid even for Hollinger.

They should've beaten them by 10+ points. If you can't beat the Lakers, Magic and Hawks by 10+ points, you're not very good.

/Hollinger

Fucking Christ that's dumb.

[Allanon]

This is still bitterness by Hollinger after being called out by Cuban over the Harris/Kidd trade.


Fuck Anthothy Randolph Mono. Change back to Mono and change your sig.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4110682&postcount=82

Allanon- There's a date and time on it if I edited it now. I can specifically find the post where I said he was a "role

player" FIRST.

You take the bet or not you pussy shit?

Mono - Ok I take that bet.

Allanon - I showed you where "role player" was. I won.

Change your sig to "I'm Allanon's bitch", Mono. :lol

[Findog]

Fuck Anthothy Randolph Mono. Change back to Mono and change your sig.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4110682&postcount=82

Allanon- There's a date and time on it if I edited it now. I can specifically find the post where I said he was a "role

player" FIRST.

You take the bet or not you pussy shit?

Mono - Ok I take that bet.

Allanon - I showed you where "role player" was. I won.

Change your sig to "I'm Allanon's bitch", Mono. :lol

You can stop spamming the forum with this crap. If you need to, create a thread calling him out and bump it everyday. Thanks.

[Allanon]

You can stop spamming the forum with this crap. If you need to, create a thread calling him out and bump it everyday. Thanks.

I keep my trolling to threads Mono posts in. Thanks.

[mavs>spurs2]

Fuck Anthothy Randolph Mono. Change back to Mono and change your sig.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4110682&postcount=82

Allanon- There's a date and time on it if I edited it now. I can specifically find the post where I said he was a "role

player" FIRST.

You take the bet or not you pussy shit?

Mono - Ok I take that bet.

Allanon - I showed you where "role player" was. I won.

Change your sig to "I'm Allanon's bitch", Mono. :lol
YOU ARE THE MOTHAFUCKIN WINNER, HERE'S YOUR PRIZE
http://images.celebrateexpress.com/mgen/merchandiser/43635.jpg

[Allanon]

timvp make me a mod, I'll suck your dick
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147104&page=5


:lol

[mavs>spurs2]

link failed

[Findog]

I keep my trolling to threads Mono posts in. Thanks.

Fine, I'll just put you on ignore.

[Allanon]

Fine, I'll just put you on ignore.

Fair enough.

[sribb43]

Hollinger is a cockhold bitch

[monosylab1k]

The Mavs' winning streak has come against some difficult opposition, but some easy matchups -- home games against Indiana and a Dwyane Wade-less Miami team, for instance -- have produced close shaves. In fact, Dallas hasn't won a game by more than 10 points since Jan. 24.

See, this is another instance where Hollinger's system is fucking retarded. The Mavs were up by like 20 points over the Pacers when Matt Carroll and the rest of the C-team came into the game. The final 2 minutes of garbage time is when Indiana managed to cut it to 9 points.

Hollinger is punishing the Mavs because their 12th man sucks ass in garbage time?

[Findog]

See, this is another instance where Hollinger's system is fucking retarded. The Mavs were up by like 20 points over the Pacers when Matt Carroll and the rest of the C-team came into the game. The final 2 minutes of garbage time is when Indiana managed to cut it to 9 points.

Hollinger is punishing the Mavs because their 12th man sucks ass in garbage time?

Yeah, that game was never in doubt, the Mavs were in complete control, and being at that game, I could tell you that they were holding something back for the Lakers two nights later - Kidd didn't even play in the 4th Quarter, and like you said, the Pacers cut the lead to a respectable margin in garbage time. The fuck is he talking about that game being a close shave? This is basketball, not baseball baldie. Metrics only tell you so much.

His formula had us behind Miami until yesterday - when we had won 7 straight versus their four straight losses, a higher strength of schedule and a better point differential. On what basis are the Heat better than the Mavs?

[duhoh]

Meh. Having Hollinger's approval is like the ugly chick telling you you're cute.

:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Booharv]

Even Charley Rosen, noted Phil Jackson jizz swallower and the king of all Dirk/Mavs haters, has admitted that the Mavs at least have an outside shot at beating the Lakers.

This is still bitterness by Hollinger after being called out by Cuban over the Harris/Kidd trade.

Lol @ Cuban publicly taking joy at Harris's struggles. Also, @ forgetting that putting Harris in the starting lineup in the 2006 Conference Semis turned the series.

[Findog]

Lol @ Cuban publicly taking joy at Harris's struggles. Also, @ forgetting that putting Harris in the starting lineup in the 2006 Conference Semis turned the series.

Cuban has never "taken joy" at Harris' struggles. They've never done anything but wish him the best in Jersey. Besides, I thought Devin Harris was some badass and the Mavs apparently made an awful trade.

[mavs>spurs2]

Lol @ Cuban publicly taking joy at Harris's struggles. Also, @ forgetting that putting Harris in the starting lineup in the 2006 Conference Semis turned the series.

proof or shove it up your ass. no one in the mavs organization, fans included, has ever wished harris anything but the best. try to contribute in a meaningful way or take your garbage back to the mouthbreather forum

[Booharv]

:lmao @ my bad memory and self ownage today. Truly epic fails in two threads.

[Ditty]

if they beat clevland ill think there contenders

[badfish22]

:lmao @ my bad memory and self ownage today. Truly epic fails in two threads.

at least you admitted it. Its your first step in being a better poster than some of the idiots that run around here. Things are looking good for you imo

[da_suns_fan]

Dallas is the only team I could see beating the Lakers.

Butler and Haywood are a huge upgrade over Howard and Dampier (I know ED is still on the team...he just sucks).

[mavs>spurs2]

Dallas is the only team I could see beating the Lakers.

Butler and Haywood are a huge upgrade over Howard and Dampier (I know ED is still on the team...he just sucks).

dampier has been a solid defensive center all year. where the hell have you been.

prior to gaining haywood, it was always really apparent how bad we missed him when he was out. he'll be a great asset to have when he comes back

[mavsfan1000]

dampier has been a solid defensive center all year. where the hell have you been.

prior to gaining haywood, it was always really apparent how bad we missed him when he was out. he'll be a great asset to have when he comes back
Agreed. Haywood is a huge upgrade to Gooden though.

[Findog]

The addition of Haywood to pair with Damp means the Mavs have a 7-footer to man the paint defensively for 48 minutes instead of 25. Our biggest problem with LA is the length of their frontline.

[monosylab1k]

Dampier was solid defensively but he still isn't as good on D as Haywood, plus he doesn't bring 1/10th of the energy Haywood brings on the offensive end.

I'm sure Carlisle isn't retarded enough to give Damp his starting job back when he gets healthy, but then again he's the same coach who force feeds JJ Barea minutes.

[mavsfan1000]

The addition of Haywood to pair with Damp means the Mavs have a 7-footer to man the paint defensively for 48 minutes instead of 25. Our biggest problem with LA is the length of their frontline.
I really think we matchup perfectly to LA. Haywood and Dampier takes away that frontline advantage LA usually has. I actually think LA will try to go smaller against us with Gasol at center more in the playoffs.

[monosylab1k]

I dunno, I think the Lakers would love to see Dampier down low. He's not quick enough and his hands aren't good enough to really neutralize Bynum. imo Najera, as small as he is, is a better backup C against the Lakers cuz he plays smarter and has active hands.

[mavsfan1000]

I dunno, I think the Lakers would love to see Dampier down low. He's not quick enough and his hands aren't good enough to really neutralize Bynum. imo Najera, as small as he is, is a better backup C against the Lakers cuz he plays smarter and has active hands.
We are at a huge rebounding disadvantage with Najera out there. Bynum and Gasol are both 7 feet. Too tall for Najera to handle. Dampier in limited minutes I think will put more energy into the game. The main thing is the Lakers aren't a running team and Dallas's bigs will have no problem getting set up. Haywood will be the key player for sure in this matchup though.

[sefant77]

Hollinger is an idiot and he does what he always does.

He has his personal opinion and then he check what few stats and facts cover his opinion. Stats and facts that doesnt cover his opinion fall under the table.

Then of course hes trying to make it look like "Its not a personal opinion, its just the facts!!!"

And of course he hates the Mavs and take every possibility to bash them

How about beating the Heat and Pacers without Wade and Granger and no single word about beating the Lakers without Butler and Damp or playing another game without Butler or still playing the new guys with barely any full practise because of the schedule or playing a center rotation Haywood/Najera...

[sefant77]

The guy get money for this crap, thats the sad part

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

[I-Ball]

The guy get money for this crap, thats the sad part

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

awesome. the mavs win their last game and drop 2 places in the ranking :lol

[z0sa]

Hollinger's make believe stats don't mean shit and they're based on real sources. Why would his personal opinion matter, then?

[Findog]

Hollinger's make believe stats don't mean shit and they're based on real sources. Why would his personal opinion matter, then?

I think it's more of a general comment on how sabermetrics and advanced statistics are a little trickier when applied to basketball, as opposed to say baseball. Baseball teams are hiring Ivy League MBAs and spreadsheet wizards to run their teams because a lot of baseball wisdom can be deduced through advanced stats. Basketball is much trickier when it comes to this approach.

Hollinger's formula is weighted more towards recently play, or so he says. "It's not body of work, it's who is playing the best right NOW," he claims. Well the Mavs have won 9 straight, including victories over the Lakers, Magic, Suns and Hawks. They also have a high strength of schedule rating and have played more roadies than home games.

But apparently on the basis of a blowout loss in Denver on the 2nd night of a b2b, and a double-digit loss to the Zombie Sonics in their first game after the trade, that supposedly makes them worse than Miami and Milwaukee, two teams that the Mavs are 4-0 against this year. Then, in a column that explains why he's still not so high on Dallas, after the trade, he notes that they barely beat Indiana at home, experiencing a "close shave." This in a game where they were up by 23 in the fourth quarter, rested their starters and saw the game become artificially close in garbage time.

[Xylus]

How the fuck are the Mavs 14th in these rankings? Makes absolutely no sense. Their margin of victory over the last 25% of their games is pretty low, but every other stat is really high.

[Findog]

How the fuck are the Mavs 14th in these rankings? Makes absolutely no sense. Their margin of victory over the last 25% of their games is pretty low, but every other stat is really high.

Supposedly a 27-pt loss to Denver on the road and a double-digit loss to the Zombie Sonics is holding them down.

[MavDynasty]

I don't even bother reading that bullshit anymore. Stein and NBA.com power rankings are 10x better than that "base everything on stats" bullshit that hollinger puts up

[sribb43]

Hollinger is a genius....this team can't even beat the nets