Rank 'Em: 15 Best NBA Players

[duncan228]

Rank 'Em: Best NBA Players (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193)
ESPN.com

Who are the best of the best in the NBA?

Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan have most of the titles. LeBron James seems to have the inside track on the MVP. And nobody can stop Kevin Durant from scoring. But when it comes to considering every star's strengths and weaknesses, how do you see the pecking order among some of the NBA's best players?

As the regular season heads down the home stretch, we're looking for your take on individual excellence. Rank 15 of the NBA's best players.


Carmelo Anthony

Chris Bosh

Kobe Bryant

Tim Duncan

Kevin Durant

Kevin Garnett

Pau Gasol

Dwight Howard

LeBron James

Steve Nash

Dirk Nowitzki

Chris Paul

Paul Pierce

Brandon Roy

Dwyane Wade

*********************

Results at the moment, 157 votes in.

Points/(#1 Votes)

1 LeBron James 2,107 (88)
2 Kobe Bryant 2,042 (50)
3 Kevin Durant 1,794 (6)
4 Dwyane Wade 1,709 (1)
5 Carmelo Anthony 1,577 (2)
6 Dwight Howard 1,371 (0)
7 Dirk Nowitzki 1,101 (3)
8 Chris Paul 1,086 (2)
9 Steve Nash 914 (0)
10 Chris Bosh 804 (0)
11 Tim Duncan 776 (2)
12 Brandon Roy 636 (1)
13 Kevin Garnett 578 (2)
14 Pau Gasol 544 (0)
15 Paul Pierce 424 (0)

[badfish22]

I don't like where this thread is going. I'm just going to avoid it.



*cue butthurt spur fans claiming Duncan>Dirk and Lakerfans claiming Kobe>Lebron*

[JamStone]

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Carmelo Anthony
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Dwight Howard
8. Tim Duncan
9. Pau Gasol
10. Chris Paul
11. Brandon Roy
12. Chris Bosh
13. Joe Johnson
14. Deron Williams
15. Amare Stoudemire

[Greg Oden]

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Carmelo Anthony
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Dwight Howard
8. Tim Duncan
9. Pau Gasol
10. Chris Paul
11. Brandon Roy
12. Chris Bosh
13. Joe Johnson
14. Deron Williams
15. Amare Stoudemire


This is a pretty good list except I would switch Bosh and Pau.

[JamStone]

I wouldn't be that opposed to that switch.

But you think Bosh is a better defender than Pau? Pau might be a pussy at times, but so is Bosh.

[picc84]

1. Lebron.
2-4. Kobe, Wade, Howard, in whatever order you see fit.
5. Melo.
6. Dirk.
7-9. Durant, Deron, CP3, in whatever order you see fit.
10-12. Bosh, Gasol, Duncan, see above.
13. Roy.
14. Joe J.
15. Stat.

[gaKNOW!blee]

1. Lebron.
2-4. Kobe, Wade, Howard, in whatever order you see fit.
5. Melo.
6. Dirk.
7-9. Durant, Deron, CP3, in whatever order you see fit.
10-12. Bosh, Gasol, Duncan, see above.
13. Roy.
14. Joe J.
15. Stat.

:lmao

[Pistons < Spurs]

Kobe
Durant
Lebron
Carmello
Wade
Dirk
Howard
CP3
Deron Williams
Duncan
Bosh
Roy
Gasol
Amare
KG

[gaKNOW!blee]

man....i'd really like to hear the reasoning on Durant > Lebron ^?

[redzero]

Damn, Paul goes down and people forget him that fast?

[Greg Oden]

KG

http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2007/55173-lolwut.jpg


That guy doesn't belong anywhere near a top 15 players list.

[Metheny]

Or the reasoning behind Kobe> Lebron?

[Pistons < Spurs]

man....i'd really like to hear the reasoning on Durant > Lebron ^?

Lebron simply is bigger, stronger, faster and jumps higher than anyone else. I just don't think he's as good of a player as he is an athlete.

[JamStone]

Playing basketball at a high level often requires athleticism.

Take away Wilt Chamberlain's athleticism, strength, and height, does he go down as one of the greatest players ever? Take away Michael Jordan's athleticism, jumping ability, and gigantic hands, is he as great as he was?

The argument might have relevance if LeBron didn't put up the numbers he did and didn't help make his team one of the best teams in the league. But LeBron translates the traits of him being bigger, stronger, faster and higher jumper into production and wins.

LeBron is the best player in the NBA. I think even more and more Laker fans and Kobe fans have started to acknowledge it too. That tells you something.

[redzero]

Lebron simply is bigger, stronger, faster and jumps higher than anyone else. I just don't think he's as good of a player as he is an athlete.

LeBron is also a better playmaker, a more efficient scorer, a better defender and a better leader. What makes it even more ridiculous is the fact that you have Kobe above both of them.

[TheManFromAcme]

Playing basketball at a high level often requires athleticism.

Take away Wilt Chamberlain's athleticism, strength, and height, does he go down as one of the greatest players ever? Take away Michael Jordan's athleticism, jumping ability, and gigantic hands, is he as great as he was?

The argument might have relevance if LeBron didn't put up the numbers he did and didn't help make his team one of the best teams in the league. But LeBron translates the traits of him being bigger, stronger, faster and higher jumper into production and wins.

LeBron is the best player in the NBA. I think even more and more Laker fans and Kobe fans have started to acknowledge it too. That tells you something.

:tu

No doubt. Lebron is on his way up if he isn't already there regarding overall talent. Until Kobe displays real legit "slowing" down, I still give the warrior award to Kobe. But make no mistake, Lebron will perhaps cement an even bigger legacy left to his (and a proper team around him) own devices.

The boy is legit.

[picc84]

:lmao

:hat

[BRHornet45]

Damn, Paul goes down and people forget him that fast?

son America has a short attention span and a "what have you done for me today?" attitude. facts and stats mean next to nothing because most "fans" are too ignorant to even know what they mean. its all about who ESPN tells them is the best and who makes the top 10 highlights on SportsCenter.

[Killakobe81]

with the injury this year you could rgue Paul shouldnt even make this list ...healthy he is top 10 easily ...

Good list only quibble is ...
I STILL would put Wade over Durant. Wade is the better defender when he tries and the beter assist guy. Eveybody getting all wet over Durant and I love his offensive game but overal Wade is still the better player
but all in all good list (OP's and Jamstone's)

Also kudos to durant for improving his rebounding
at the rate he is improving he maybe the 2nd best to "lebron very soon which will be amazing to overcome the rest of the field that quickly.

I think Howard has made strides as a player as well.
He is no tim duncan or Gasol in the post ...
but he is an amazing help defender and rebounder.
he has become effective at times in the paint. though still far from dominant
his FT shooting has improved.
To me the MVP race starts with lebron, then Dwight, then kobe ...
but Dwight is closer than you think ...
I dont think he is DPOY but should be 2nd in MVP voting ...

[gaKNOW!blee]

Lebron simply is bigger, stronger, faster and jumps higher than anyone else. I just don't think he's as good of a player as he is an athlete.

thats what makes him the best lol.

[Killakobe81]

If you went with pure skill I could accept Kobe Wade over Lebron maybe even melo and Durant ...

But since speed athleticism and power all come in to play in contact sports ...Lebron is the most dominant individual force.

Even Laker fans can admit it ...all we need to see for Lebron to cement his greatness is the titles ...

[Killakobe81]

Pump your brakes on Durant, Killa. We get guys like him popping up every year. Four years ago it was Arenas, two season ago it was Granger, now its Durant. He's ok, but he'll never reach superstar status.

I hear ya luva ...
BUT read my line about "i love his offense" but the rest of his game needs work.
But he did improve his REBOUNDING ...

and my disclaimer WAS that IF he continues to IMPROVE at the SAME rate.

he could be the next Kobe he could be the next Gilbert Arenas everyone thought (agent zero) was on Kobe's level ...or getting close ...how did that work out? or TMAC?

BUT i think durant WILL be a SUperstar but we will see ...

[8FOR!3]

LeBron is in a level all by himself. Kobe is on the level below all by himself. Durant is in the same situation. Then there's the rest of the top guys.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KD is already a great shooter with a scorers mentality. He's peaking early though, not to mention he's on a scrub team. If he could drop those numbers on a good team, then we can talk. I like his game but I have to see him for a few more years before I elevate him to Kobe's level. James is there already.


I'm not putting him on Kobe's level but the Thunder aren't a scrub team.

[picc84]

Durant doesn't have near the all-around game to be top 3 in the league right now.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Durant doesn't have near the all-around game to be top 3 in the league right now.


I agree. Melo, Kobe and Lebron are all better. All I was saying is he's not on a scrub team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

36-23 is scrubbish to me. They are only a game ahead of the Spurs, and we know they are scrubs. Even still, I'd bet money on any team they face in the playoffs, even Portland.


Eh. They've got the 3rd best defense in the NBA. That's a team that'll generally do well in the playoffs. They're young as shit so I can see why you'd take any other team but most wouldn't view them as a scrub team. My biggest beef with Durant is him not being more of a playmaker on offense.

[JoeTait75]

36-23 is scrubbish to me.

Perspective, Luva. They won 23 games last year.

[JamStone]

10th best record in the league, one of only 8 teams with winning road records, and like DOK mentioned, surprisingly one of the best defensive teams in the league.

Oklahoma City might not be in the group of the big boys yet as legit title contenders. But, they are far from a "scrub" team.

[nkdlunch]

You know the difference between Oklahoma and NJ? Oklahoma will play 5-6 more games... that's it.

another brilliant gem from a "knowledgeable" poster :lmao

[JamStone]

You know the difference between a CEO of a million dollar company and a factory worker?

A couple zeros on the paycheck... that's it.

[Killakobe81]

LOL OKC looks good to me. But yet in still they are the team out of the playoff field i would LOVE to face ...first run playoff teams are usually out quickly look at Portland last year everyone was on their jock especilly Brandon Roy's and they went out meekly to the Rox ...

I wish it was lakers OKC in round one ...but probaly won't happen. Next year I think they will be MUCH better just making it this year is a HUGE acomplishment.

[HarlemHeat37]

#1. Lebron James..by far the best player in the NBA, on his own level right now..

#2. Kobe Bryant..breaking down, but still the 2nd best player in the NBA..
#3. Dwight Howard..he's by far the biggest defensive and rebounding difference-maker in the NBA, he's improved his post game..only people that haven't seen him play this season can claim differently..
#4. Dwyane Wade..he's not playing like it this season, but I feel like he should still be ranked here..when he's giving it his all, he's on this level..we'll probably see more of it next year..

#5. Carmelo Anthony..arguably the best scorer in the NBA right now..
#6. Kevin Durant..it's tough to rank him this high since he hasn't even played a playoff game, but what he's doing with the Thunder is impressive as fuck..
#7. Chris Paul..I would usually have him at 5, but he's a legit injury concern at this point..
#8a. Tim Duncan..I take him slightly over Dirk for still having the much better all-around game..it's visible on the court and the stats back it up..
#8b. Dirk Nowitzki..Dirk certainly has a good argument against Duncan..while Timmy's numbers are much better, Dirk has been as valuable to his team as any other player in the NBA this season, and the numbers back that up..the Mavs are completely inept without him..
#10. Chris Bosh..Gasol is better defensively and is a much better passer, but Bosh has him beat everywhere else..
#11. Pau Gasol..in most head-to-head matchups and when he's playing at his highest level, he's as good as the other big men in front of him..the problem with him is his inconsistency and the fact that a certain defensive playing style can often take him out of his game and make him invisible for stretches..

#12. Deron Williams..
#13. Brandon Roy..
#14. Joe Johnson..
#15. Amare Stoudemire..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You know the difference between Oklahoma and NJ? Oklahoma will play 5-6 more games... that's it.


Sometimes I wonder if your being serious.

[Xylus]

He's just trolling as always. No one on SpursTalk is actually that dumb.

[TIMMYD!]

Why the hell is KG still on these lists?

[The Gemini Method]

#1. Lebron James..by far the best player in the NBA, on his own level right now..

#2. Kobe Bryant..breaking down, but still the 2nd best player in the NBA..
#3. Dwight Howard..he's by far the biggest defensive and rebounding difference-maker in the NBA, he's improved his post game..only people that haven't seen him play this season can claim differently..
#4. Dwyane Wade..he's not playing like it this season, but I feel like he should still be ranked here..when he's giving it his all, he's on this level..we'll probably see more of it next year..

#5. Carmelo Anthony..arguably the best scorer in the NBA right now..
#6. Kevin Durant..it's tough to rank him this high since he hasn't even played a playoff game, but what he's doing with the Thunder is impressive as fuck..
#7. Chris Paul..I would usually have him at 5, but he's a legit injury concern at this point..
#8a. Tim Duncan..I take him slightly over Dirk for still having the much better all-around game..it's visible on the court and the stats back it up..
#8b. Dirk Nowitzki..Dirk certainly has a good argument against Duncan..while Timmy's numbers are much better, Dirk has been as valuable to his team as any other player in the NBA this season, and the numbers back that up..the Mavs are completely inept without him..
#10. Chris Bosh..Gasol is better defensively and is a much better passer, but Bosh has him beat everywhere else..
#11. Pau Gasol..in most head-to-head matchups and when he's playing at his highest level, he's as good as the other big men in front of him..the problem with him is his inconsistency and the fact that a certain defensive playing style can often take him out of his game and make him invisible for stretches..

#12. Deron Williams..
#13. Brandon Roy..
#14. Joe Johnson..
#15. Amare Stoudemire..

I like this list, but I'd have Carmelo at the #3 spot and Dirk ahead of Duncan based on what's happening now. I'm not sure if I'd take Dwyane over Durant either, but that's neither here nor there...

[JamStone]

Are Tim Duncan's numbers really "much better" than Dirk's?

I think that's arguable at best.

[Cane]

Top 20 PER (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics), bolded names are on the ESPN OP link:

1 LeBron James
2 Dwyane Wade
3 Tim Duncan
4 Chris Bosh
5 Chris Paul
6 Kevin Durant
7 Dwight Howard
8 Greg Oden
9 Dirk Nowitzki
10 Kobe Bryant
11 Carmelo Anthony
12 Kevin Love
13 Steve Nash
14 Josh Smith
15 Chauncey Billups
16 David Lee
17 Pau Gasol
18 Brandon Roy
19 Zach Randolph
20 Carlos Boozer, UTH

If PER means anything then KG (#32 on the PER leader list) and Paul Pierce (didn't make the top 50) don't belong on a top 15 list.... And I think Boston has been playing sub-500 ball since X-Mas or the All Star Break.

[phxspurfan]

Carmelo Anthony

Chris Bosh

Kobe Bryant

Tim Duncan

Kevin Durant

Kevin Garnett

Pau Gasol

Dwight Howard

LeBron James

Steve Nash

Dirk Nowitzki

Chris Paul

Paul Pierce

Brandon Roy

Dwyane Wade

*********************


Top 10 (In Order):

1. LeBron
2. Bryant
3. Wade
4. Duncan
5. Nowitzki
6. Paul
7. Durant
8. Bosh
9. Roy
10. Howard

Next 10 (in order):
11. Anthony
12. Stoudemire
13. Granger
14. Garnett
15. Pierce
16. Johnson
17. Gasol
18. Nash
19. Williams
20. Yao (injured)

[Allanon]

1.Kobe Bryant
2.LeBron James
3.Dwyane Wade
4.Carmelo Anthony
5.Tim Duncan
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Kevin Durant
8.Steve Nash
9.Dwight Howard
10.Chris Paul
11.Chris Bosh
12.Kevin Garnett
13.Paul Pierce
14.Brandon Roy
15.Pau Gasol

[HarlemHeat37]

Are Tim Duncan's numbers really "much better" than Dirk's?

I think that's arguable at best.

I said his all-around game is much better, and I would stand by that..

EDIT: looks like I did say Duncan's numbers are much better..probably an exaggeration..I was looking at his PER, rebounding, passing, shot blocking, offensive/defensive ratings and lower usage%/minutes..much better is an exaggeration though, I shouldn't have said that..

IMO, the argument for Dirk would be whether his scoring/ability to take over games with his scoring and his value to his team is enough to say he's currently a better player than Duncan..

I certainly wouldn't mind anybody putting Dirk ahead of him right now, I just disagree..

[phxspurfan]

1st team All-NBA:

C. Howard
F. LeBron
F. Durant
G. Bryant
G. Wade

2nd team:

C. Duncan
F. Nowitzki
F. Bosh
G. Paul
G. Roy

3rd:

C. Gasol
F. Anthony
F. Stoudemire
G. Nash
G. Pierce

[Cane]

I said his all-around game is much better, and I would stand by that..

EDIT: looks like I did say Duncan's numbers are much better..probably an exaggeration..

IMO, the argument for Dirk would be whether his scoring/ability to take over games with his scoring and his value to his team is enough to say he's currently a better player than Duncan..

I certainly wouldn't mind anybody putting Dirk ahead of him right now, I just disagree..

In the PER standings, Duncan beats Dirk by quite a bit and is also averaging a double double.. Duncan's also having a great year despite averaging a career low in minutes and he beats Dirk in rebounds, FG%, efficiency, assists, and blocks while averaging six minutes less per game. Dirk is younger and a better shooter but I think its pretty safe to say Duncan > Dirk. Duncan's also a better defender and has more bball IQ.

[Killakobe81]

1st team All-NBA:

C. Howard
F. LeBron
F. Durant
G. Bryant
G. Wade

2nd team:

C. Duncan
F. Nowitzki
F. Bosh
G. Paul
G. Roy

3rd:

C. Gasol
F. Anthony
F. Stoudemire
G. Nash
G. Pierce

I hope it doesnt sound like hating because I tink he is a top 2 PG in the NBA but with all the games missed for injury how can you justify c3p as 2nd team?
If you said BEST Player? cool. butt ALL NBA this year? that is not fair to Nash, Rose Dwill etc.

[Goran Dragic]

Nash doesn't deserve to be anywhere near this list when he gets out performed by his backup as often as he does.

[Henke]

In the PER standings, Duncan beats Dirk by quite a bit and is also averaging a double double.. Duncan's also having a great year despite averaging a career low in minutes and he beats Dirk in rebounds, FG%, efficiency, assists, and blocks while averaging six minutes less per game. Dirk is younger and a better shooter but I think its pretty safe to say Duncan > Dirk. Duncan's also a better defender and has more bball IQ.

Link?

[TDMVPDPOY]

this is from bspn? more like a popularity contest and trolls

[baseline bum]

Pierce and Garnett ahead of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Chauncey Billups? ESPN is retarded.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I don't like where this thread is going. I'm just going to avoid it.

*cue butthurt spur fans claiming Duncan>Dirk and Lakerfans claiming Kobe>Lebron*

Duncan is better than Dirk and always will be (4>0), but Dirk is having the better season this year.

[Goran Dragic]

Duncan is better than Dirk and always will be (4>0)


Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley and always will be (7>0)

[Killakobe81]

Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley and always will be (7>0)

LOL i know ... people get mad when titles are used in best player debates...

No of course not Spur fan doesnt think Horry is better than Barkley ... but how else do you define the HOF'er from an all-time great?


I have hadthis Barkley debate at a barbershop before. Barkley is a Hof'er a great player but you cant put him with Magic, Bird, MJ Kobe duncan Hakeem because he went ringless.

Many argue he could not win because of MJ ...but when Mj was out hakeem won Barkley did not.

SO when raking the great players of HIS era he is with the Karl Malone and reggie millers but NOT the MJ, Bird, Isiah, Magic.

But of course he is better than horry, Keny smith, hell even Scottie pippen or Rodman ...who have rings but he don't.

But when you discuss players of the same era rings are the tiebreakers. Period. stats weaker supporting casts are just excuses the ALLtime greats find a way to at LEAST get one. MOST at LEAST two.

Duncn and dirk's career overlap and duncan has played in the same division

[Killakobe81]

for this season Dirk is better than Duncan despite what PER says ..

[Greg Oden]

LOL stats never matter to spurfans unless it helps their argument.

[Sportstudi]

for this season Dirk is better than Duncan despite what PER says ..

You could say the same also about last season. Duncan has had a great career and nobody should doubt that. But the bitterness from some Spur-fans against Dirk is really annoying. Dirk has been better than Duncan last season and also this season no matter what PER is saying. And during Dirk's best years (05-07) you could make some doubts as well.

[Sportstudi]

LOL stats never matter to spurfans unless it helps their argument.

Not to all of them, but to some extent I agree. Some butthurt people have only one hobby: to bash Dallas no matter if they even have arguments or not.

[HarlemHeat37]

Actually, I'm one of the Spurs fans that always gives Dirk credit, I've defended him in plenty of arguments..

With that being said, I can absolutely make the argument for Duncan this year..not for last year, Dirk was definitely better, but I can easily make the argument for Duncan being better this year, just like Nowitzki's fans can make their own argument..

I don't understand the stats comment either..as you can see in a lot of my posts, I use stats more than 99% of the posters on ST and I don't ignore them when somebody posts them against my point, so I don't understand that..

It's also ironic that you sound butthurt in your complaint about Spurs fans being butthurt..

[namlook]

1 Kobe Bryant http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (951) 28,016
2 Dwyane Wade http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (29) 23,774
3 LeBron James http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (929) 23,194
4 Kevin Durant http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (60) 22,008
5 Carmelo Anthony http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (33) 18,193
6 Dwight Howard http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (10) 15,711
7 Steve Nash http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (6) 13,948
8 Tim Duncan http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (13) 12,801
9 Dirk Nowitzki http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (20) 12,491
10 Chris Paul http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (8) 12,444
11 Chris Bosh http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (3) 10,149
12 Brandon Roy http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (6) 7,376
13 Kevin Garnett http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (5) 6,468
14 Pau Gasol http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (0) 6,267
15 Paul Pierce http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (4) 4,996


http://assets.espn.go.com/olympics/admin/loading.gif (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#)

[Sportstudi]

Actually, I'm one of the Spurs fans that always gives Dirk credit, I've defended him in plenty of arguments..

With that being said, I can absolutely make the argument for Duncan this year..not for last year, Dirk was definitely better, but I can easily make the argument for Duncan being better this year, just like Nowitzki's fans can make their own argument..

I don't understand the stats comment either..as you can see in a lot of my posts, I use stats more than 99% of the posters on ST and I don't ignore them when somebody posts them against my point, so I don't understand that..

It's also ironic that you sound butthurt in your complaint about Spurs fans being butthurt..

Don't get me wrong. I said some of the Spur-fans. Definitely not all of them. I can admit that I recognized you have been fair all the time recently. I was just angry about some idiots simply not willing to admit Dirk's feats. You can check my posts in the past, I never had any problem to give Duncan props.

[Chieflion]

1 Kobe Bryant http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (951) 28,016
2 Dwyane Wade http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (29) 23,774
3 LeBron James http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (929) 23,194
4 Kevin Durant http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (60) 22,008
5 Carmelo Anthony http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (33) 18,193
6 Dwight Howard http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (10) 15,711
7 Steve Nash http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (6) 13,948
8 Tim Duncan http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (13) 12,801
9 Dirk Nowitzki http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (20) 12,491
10 Chris Paul http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (8) 12,444
11 Chris Bosh http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (3) 10,149
12 Brandon Roy http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (6) 7,376
13 Kevin Garnett http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (5) 6,468
14 Pau Gasol http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (0) 6,267
15 Paul Pierce http://a.espncdn.com/sportsnation/listranker/NBA/info.png (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#) (4) 4,996


http://assets.espn.go.com/olympics/admin/loading.gif (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=193#)

How old is this bullshit? Ya, Paul Pierce is a top 15 NBA player in the league. Same goes for Garnett!:lmao

CROFL! Wade is 2nd. LeBron is 3rd! :lmao:rollin:lol

[Killakobe81]

Who cares? Give the best to Lebron ... he is a force of nature
I want the ring ...

[picc84]

Some of this is just outdated.

Lets be real. Lebron is the best, and cats like Pierce/Garnett/Nash have no business on the list. Its not 2008. Its not even 09. Things have changed a lot just in this year and the nba is different now.

[endrity]

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Dirk, Howard, Melo in any way you want, and this should also be the 1st All-Nba Team. No other guard after Kobe deserves it.
6. Durant, Wade (quite subpar season from him honestly), Paul
9. Duncan, and when the playoffs come around this will go up a bit.
10. Roy, J Johnson
12. Bosh, Nash

My list really ends here, the others are a bit bit below this level, not quite worthy of building a franchise around!

[timtonymanu]

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Howard
4. Durant
5. Wade
6. Melo
7. Dirk
8. Paul
9. Timmy
10. Bosh
11. Roy
12. Nash
13. Gasol

Pierce and KG dont even belong on this list. I'd take Joe Johnson and Deron Williams over them.

[Chieflion]

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwight Howard
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. Dirk Nowitski
8. Tim Duncan
9. Chris Paul
10. Chris Bosh
11. Deron Williams
12. Brandon Roy
13. Joe Johnson
14. Pau Gasol
15. Zach Randolph? (I don't know, I can't think of anybody.)

[TD 21]

Damn, Paul goes down and people forget him that fast?

I know. This is one of the more surprising, under reported stories of the NBA season. Paul, the past two seasons, was looked at as the consensus third best building block in the league. All of a sudden his team becomes irrelevant, he get's injured and it's as if everyone has forgot how good he is. I'm seeing all these top five player rankings and he's no longer in it, which I find ridiculous. People are way too impulsive in sports nowadays.

Why is Garnett listed, but not Williams? Garnett is no longer a top twenty player; I don't care how much the media loves him, they need to stop playing games. In no particular order...

James, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Bryant, Howard, Anthony, Durant, Bosh, Nowitzki, Gasol, Roy, Williams and Nash, are the fourteen best players in the league. Fifteenth, there are four candidates: Johnson, Pierce, Billups, Yao. Maybe even a fifth in Stoudemire, though I'm 50/50 on that one. Billups is having the best season, but I'm going with Pierce.

[atxrocker]

Kevin Durant. A Texas boy. Always a superstar and a special player. Watch.

[Xylus]

Amare is most definitely outperforming Nash right now, and--SHOCKER--the Suns are playing extremely well.

[Killakobe81]

I know. This is one of the more surprising, under reported stories of the NBA season. Paul, the past two seasons, was looked at as the consensus third best building block in the league. All of a sudden his team becomes irrelevant, he get's injured and it's as if everyone has forgot how good he is. I'm seeing all these top five player rankings and he's no longer in it, which I find ridiculous. People are way too impulsive in sports nowadays.

Why is Garnett listed, but not Williams? Garnett is no longer a top twenty player; I don't care how much the media loves him, they need to stop playing games. In no particular order...

James, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Bryant, Howard, Anthony, Durant, Bosh, Nowitzki, Gasol, Roy, Williams and Nash, are the fourteen best players in the league. Fifteenth, there are four candidates: Johnson, Pierce, Billups, Yao. Maybe even a fifth in Stoudemire, though I'm 50/50 on that one. Billups is having the best season, but I'm going with Pierce.

I never thought he was top 5 top 10 definitely. Im not a Hollinger PER freak ...
Paul is a great PG but not much better than Dwill is also top 10 not top 5

[redzero]

Paul is a great PG but not much better than Dwill is also top 10 not top 5

So, you wouldn't call a player who pretty much does everything better than another player much better?

[DAF86]

Are Tim Duncan's numbers really "much better" than Dirk's?

I think that's arguable at best.

Duncan: 19.2 ppg on 14.7 FG att, .518 FG%, 1.70 blks, 11 rbds, 3.1 assts, 32.2 min. PER: 26.54

Dirk: 25.2 ppg on 18.9 FG att, .479 FG%, 1.10 blks, 7.7 rbds, 2.5 assts, 37.9 min. PER: 23.02

Not "much better" but clearly better IMO. Duncan beats Dirk on almost every single "advanced" or "efficiency" stat. Dirk averages more points only 'cause he takes more shots and plays more minutes. If they played a similar amount of minutes I don't think this would be even debatable.

Add to this stats the difference that Duncan makes on the defensive end compared to Nowitzki and I think it's safe to say that Duncan is still the better player.

[Killakobe81]

So, you wouldn't call a player who pretty much does everything better than another player much better?

i said he was better but it is close ...but for my tastes i prefer Dwill.
Paul is great for his size but in the long run I prefer the bigger PG when they are relatively close plus he wins the head2head matchup more than he loses ...

Most like Lebron some prefer Kobe

Some like Dwight some still prefer Duncan

some think durant is beter than melo ...you cant win any of these debates with stats ...

[redzero]

I really don't see the point of explaining why head-to-head matchups are a poor judge of talent anymore.

[boston.balla]

I think people overrate durant badly.

Argument 1: He has one of the highest usage rates in the league and he averages the same assist per possession as dwight. DWIGHT ffs who has wooden hands when it comes to passing.
You can't be a top player when you can't create offense for others. Look at the link below for lebron, kobe, wade etc to see a HUGE difference.

Argument 2: he rebounds well due to height but still less then melo/bron . He shies away from physical contact and is not a good defender. Adequate maybe bc he is playing with great defenders(westbrook is SICK, harden is underrated defensively, shefolosa is great, ibaka is very good). I don't see him boxing out very good, i don't see him posting up, etc. when his jumper is off and the game is physical (playoffs, no easy fts) he cannot carry a team because he does not have the post game or the defensive presence. Despite being very good he is somewhat one dimensional.

Argument 3(personal):
He does not seem to be a true leader, i think people overrate durant and underrate westbrook and the great defenders on okc... thier team is carried by d, not by durant. Counterexample: cavs, heat, sometimes lakers, where the superstar carries the team (up or down). Okc does not fall into this pattern.

My order:

tier 1. lebrons
..............
tier 2. kobe, dwight (ask any sane coach what he means to a team- o and d), dirk(over timmy because of consistency and health), wade
.................
tier 3: melo, timmy, durant, bosh(softness puts him a tier down), roy(underrated), deron, cp3

Note: cp3 this low because he dominates the ball so much that it hurts his team .. like leiso in cleveland which in the past two seasons has been toned down, awesome stat padder but he is too small for the big guards, we all know what that means from a :lobt2: perspective, i mean look at how differently the hornets are playing without him. The same argument can be given towards kobe, but he is still a good defender, much more clutch, does not quit on his team 121-63 style. So he's up one tier and cp3 is just tier3.
.....................
tier 4: pau, jjohnson, pierce, rose, billups = obvious second fiddle guys
..............
tier 5: lopez, westbrook, shaq, ellis, rondo, randolph, marc gasol, etc
..............

look here for stats:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics


Wrote the tiers from coaching and game preparing perspective, from a "which guys have the best chance to bring me rings" (leadership, offense, defense, easiness of building a team around them, clutchness, steadiness and consistency, matchup problem maker)

[boston.balla]

Note: cp3 this low because he dominates the ball so much that it hurts his team .. like leiso in cleveland which in the past two seasons has been toned down, awesome stat padder but he is too small for the big guards, we all know what that means from a :lobt2: perspective, i mean look at how differently the hornets are playing without him. The same argument can be given towards kobe, but he is still a good defender, much more clutch, does not quit on his team 121-63 style. So he's up one tier and cp3 is just tier3.

Furthermore, cp3 does not have the lebronesque physical tools to make leiso a reliable play... i don't have anything against cp3 but he is mightily overrated especially defensively which should bring him down a tier 'cause the game is still two ways.

[redzero]

Yeah, just look at the Hornet's losing record since Paul went down. The Hornets are clearly better without him.

[endrity]

I also believe people are jumping a bit too soon on the Durant bandwagon. The guy has yet to play a playoff game!!!

[Double-Up]

Dwight and KG are overrated...

[fevertrees]

Paul is not even a top 5 guard in the league much less a top 50 player.

[Double-Up]

Paul is not even a top 5 guard in the league much less a top 50 player.

He don't contribute to winning because he has to dominate the ball so much and he does that because everyone else on his team sucks walrus cock. He's not the problem...

[TheMACHINE]

I don't like where this thread is going. I'm just going to avoid it.



*cue butthurt spur fans claiming Duncan>Dirk and Lakerfans claiming Kobe>Lebron*

Lakers fans already accept that Lebron is better then Kobe right now. Try again.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk averages more points only 'cause he takes more shots and plays more minutes.

You're penalizing Dirk for being in better shape, thus allowing him to play more minutes? That doesn't hurt Dirk's case in any way. It only helps his argument that he is able to stay on the court longer.

[Goran Dragic]

You're penalizing Dirk for being in better shape, thus allowing him to play more minutes? That doesn't hurt Dirk's case in any way. It only helps his argument that he is able to stay on the court longer.


You should know by now Manufan loves the "He plays more minutes which somehow means he's worse" argument.

[Killakobe81]

Furthermore, cp3 does not have the lebronesque physical tools to make leiso a reliable play... i don't have anything against cp3 but he is mightily overrated especially defensively which should bring him down a tier 'cause the game is still two ways.

Im not won of those that say they are better without him that is foolish. In fact, i questioned the guy the hornets fan that said trade C3p (hornetsguy?) in another thread (Your team thoughts) on his belief that collison is BETTER than C3p and I love collison I'm a Bruin alumni!

As for the head2head argument OBVIOUSLY they play on different teams and have different systems. But just using stats is just as foolish as just using head2head ...

the game has become perimeter based ...

BOTH franchises were in the lottery that is HOW they got Dwill and C3P p

Utah is better but not great the only advantage Dwill has over C3p is that he played for only 1 coach. Both have one all-star type forward on their squad (west & boozer)and a former all star (AK & Peja) bunch of hard working role players and a limited center (okafor offensively Okur defensively)

Yet Dwill's squad has the better win % head to head and overall ...
Dwill was drafted first had the better college career (went to title game)and has taken his team to WCF

by many measures I can argue Dwill

IF Dwill is NOT better ... i dont see how you can argue C3p is CLEARLY better ... which was my ORIGINAL argument.

But we will see who will have the better career overall ...

[JamStone]

Overall numbers favor Chris Paul pretty clearly. Better scoring, assists, rebounds, all shooting numbers, fewer turnovers. They all favor CP3, for this season and for their careers. Head-to-head match-ups should be looked at, but it's not always about an individual match-up. Sometimes it's how the entire team plays a better, sometimes it's coaching schemes. Arron Afflalo seems to have Kobe Bryant's number defensively and even outplayed him the last time. You're not going to argue Afflalo is a better player based on head-to-head match-ups.

Deron Williams' team has a better winning record overall since the two have come into the league, but they've also just had better teams in Utah than in New Orleans, and better coaching.

But if you want more evidence, look at how each is regarded by coaches and NBA analysts/writers. Look at their honors and awards. CP3 has three all star selections, two all NBA selections, two all NBA defensive (ok yeah I know), ROY, and came in second place in MVP voting two years ago. Deron has one all star selection and one all NBA selection.

Statistics favor CP3. Honors favor CP3. Coaches, writers, experts, and fans would say CP3 is better. And the one argument for Deron is that he has better head-to-head numbers.

I think the evidence would allow someone to justifiably say CP3 is clearly better than Deron Williams. That might not be true, but there is enough of a case to make the contention.

[picc84]

Everybody has Kobe's number defensively lately. His offense has been horrible since the injuries started.

As for Deron, CP3 has better numbers but he also has the ball more. Put Deron on the Hornets and I don't doubt he could put up similar stats.

[JamStone]

He already puts up "similar stats." That doesn't mean he could do what CP3 does. And Deron has the ball in his hands almost as much as CP3. I don't see a big difference. And, it's also been documented that he runs the show in Utah now. Jerry Sloan lets Deron call the plays, something he didn't even do with Stockton.

Similar stats as CP3, I could see that. As good? I doubt it. I don't think he can shoot as efficiently, rebound as well despite being bigger and stronger, and I think the pick-and-roll offense actually helps him as a playmaker. I think CP3 creates out of his talent more so than Deron Williams. If Deron had to create more out of isolation without as much reliance on the pick-and-roll and how Utah really runs it to the ground, I'm not convinced he'd be the playmaker or assist guy he is now. Deron is still a stud, don't get me wrong. But, I think Chris Paul is the better player, not by a huge margin, but clearly better.

[picc84]

I wont call you crazy.

[Killakobe81]

He already puts up "similar stats." That doesn't mean he could do what CP3 does. And Deron has the ball in his hands almost as much as CP3. I don't see a big difference. And, it's also been documented that he runs the show in Utah now. Jerry Sloan lets Deron call the plays, something he didn't even do with Stockton.

Similar stats as CP3, I could see that. As good? I doubt it. I don't think he can shoot as efficiently, rebound as well despite being bigger and stronger, and I think the pick-and-roll offense actually helps him as a playmaker. I think CP3 creates out of his talent more so than Deron Williams. If Deron had to create more out of isolation without as much reliance on the pick-and-roll and how Utah really runs it to the ground, I'm not convinced he'd be the playmaker or assist guy he is now. Deron is still a stud, don't get me wrong. But, I think Chris Paul is the better player, not by a huge margin, but clearly better.

JAm I respect you a lot and Im glad you put some reasoning in your rebuttal.
But I disagree. Yes he ahs better stats but you cant (not you specificaly) that he has better stats butthen also pull the he has a better team and coaching card as well. Doesnt that cancel it out?

C3p holds the ball alot on fast breaks he rarely pushes the ball ahead a la Nash or Jkidd (though Nash holds the ball a lot in the half court).

In most of these debates best PG, SG, SF etc Maybe only Lebron holds a definitive advantage over his peers (this season) at his position and Maybe Dwight. To me you can make strong cases at every other spot.

I guess i have taken my view based on my prefference as a coach for bigger PG's AND more IMPORTANTLY how they have played in the playoffs (which mean much more than regular season) and in the elimination series for both guys Dwill has been CLEARLY better IMHO.

C3p destroyed Dallas but was found wanting in the key games vs. BOTH denver and San Antonio. I just think it is EASIER in a playoff scenario for C3P to be contained by a good defensive team.

And i have stated on here many times the playoffs and the rings matter more to me than regular season highlights and stats.

I have watched C3p from his days in the ACC (and Dwill in the Big 10)...and to me it just seemed he has shown a tendency to not raise his game against the very best in the ACC tournament the NCAA tournament or the NBA playoffs.

Also to me when someone is the best they raise their game when matched with someone on "their level".
Afflalo did great against Kobe his UCLA guy I love his game ...but that is a small sample size and you are comapring apples and oranges.

Dwill and C3p have faced off much more than that entered the league at the same time play in the same conference (i said division earlier)

Plus the argument of all NBA awrads etc. to me is weak ... there have been many questionable choices both for and agianst even Kobe.

Look C3p is great but again watch the playoffs IF the Hornets even make it.

[JamStone]

CP3 has better playoff stats in every area other than 3-point shooting than Deron Williams.

Neither has a ring, so mentioning that means nothing when it comes to these two.

[JamStone]

Tried to find a common opponent in the playoffs. It's not in the same post-season so there are other different factors involved like the health of each team and what not, but the Jazz faced the Spurs in the 2007 playoffs and lost in 5 games and the Hornets faced the Spurs in the 2008 playoffs and lost in 7 games. Here are their respective basic stats against a common opponent only one year removed:

Deron Williams
25.8 PPG
7.8 APG
3.6 RPG
3.2 TO
52.7% FG

Chris Paul
23.7 PPG
10.7 APG
4.4 RPG
2.3 TO
57.4% FG

Chris Paul played better and his team won more games. I mean, if you want to look at a small sample like head-to-head match-ups, this is just as fair to look at when they're playing in the post-season (what matters to you more) and against a common (albeit not exactly the same) opponent.

[DAF86]

You're penalizing Dirk for being in better shape, thus allowing him to play more minutes? That doesn't hurt Dirk's case in any way. It only helps his argument that he is able to stay on the court longer.

I don't think it's a matter of physical condition, Duncan could play 38 min per game but Pop is probably the most conservative coach when it comes to regulating his players' minutes, with any other coach Tim would be playing 35/38 minutes per game.

[Phillip]

DAF86's List

1. Manu
2. Manu
3. Manu
4. Manu
5. Manu
6. Manu
7. Manu
8. Manu
9. Manu
10. Manu
11. Manu
12. Duncan
13. Tony
14. Dice
15. Bonner

[DAF86]

DAF86's List

1. Duncan
2. Manu
3. Manu
4. Manu
5. Manu
6. Manu
7. Manu
8. Manu
9. Manu
10. Manu
11. Manu
12. Manu
13. Tony
14. Hill
15. Blair

Fixed

P/S: Argentina > South Park

[redzero]

Also, I love how people automatically assume that Paul is a bad defender because he is one of the smaller guards.

[HarlemHeat37]

Paul is a better defender than Williams..PG defense is overrated in general, it isn't possible to be an elite defensive PG in this current era IMO..Williams is an average individual defender and Paul is too small defensively, but CP3 is one of the best help defenders I've seen in a while from the PG position..

Paul and Williams have around the same usage% this season and you have the same results as always..CP3 has 4% less possessions than he did last season, yet he's putting up virtually the same assist numbers that he previously did..this clearly shows that Paul is very capable of adapting his game and being effective, even with the ball in his hands less..

The Hornets offense relies on Paul to create far more than Utah needs Williams..the Jazz have multiple playmakers on their teams, while NO only has Paul and West(West can't create for others though)..Chris Paul has an unreal 11% of his points coming off assists..he CARRIES the Hornets..

It's not a huge margin, but there's a margin..Paul's stats are better across the board, he's better defensively and his team puts more responsibility on him(while you might think this means the same thing as having the ball in your hands, it doesn't..Williams is involved in more of his team's plays than Paul, but his coach and teammates allow him to have a more versatile arsenal)..

Another key is that New Orleans usually plays at one of the slowest paces in the NBA..this season they have used more speed to acclimate their younger players, but Paul's stats would be slightly better with the adjustment for pace..

[duhoh]

KG is there on reputation alone

[Greg Oden]

I don't think it's a matter of physical condition, Duncan could play 38 min per game but Pop is probably the most conservative coach when it comes to regulating his players' minutes, with any other coach Tim would be playing 35/38 minutes per game.

He probably couldn't. And even if he did, he would be a dead man walking at the end of the season.

[Goran Dragic]

Fixed

P/S: Argentina > South Park


South Park doesn't harbor Nazis.

[badfish22]

Lakers fans already accept that Lebron is better then Kobe right now. Try again.

I was wrong on that part, but I was right that this would just turn into a Dirk/Duncan debate, with spurfan debating against everyone else. Always does.

[Goran Dragic]

Right now Dirk is better than Duncan, career wise different story.

[badfish22]

Right now Dirk is better than Duncan, career wise different story.

obviously. No one thinks Dirk>Duncan career wise. Mavfan isn't like spurfan (lol Manu>dirk)

[ChrisRichards]

So far.

1. Lebron (Duh)
2. Kevin Durant
3. Melo
4. Dwight
5. Dirk
6. Bosh
7. Wade
8. Gasol
9. Kobe
10. Duncan
11. Nash
12. Deron Williams
13. Paul Pierce
14. Amare
15. Billups

[DAF86]

South Park doesn't harbor Nazis.

People in Argentina have noses.

[mystargtr34]

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Durant
6. Carmelo
7. Duncan
8. Dirk
9. Pau
10. Yao
11. Bosh
12. Deron
13. Paul
14. Roy
15. Johnson

Probably shouldn't put Yao or Paul in because of injury .. But if they get backto ther old level that's where they would fit in.

[ChrisRichards]

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Durant
6. Carmelo
7. Duncan
8. Dirk
9. Pau
10. Yao
11. Bosh
12. Deron
13. Paul
14. Roy
15. Johnson

Probably shouldn't put Yao or Paul in because of injury .. But if they get backto ther old level that's where they would fit in.
:nope

[mystargtr34]

Well a healthy Paul is probably a top 5 player but it's hard to put him there given he hasn't played much .. Same with Yao

[Killakobe81]

Tried to find a common opponent in the playoffs. It's not in the same post-season so there are other different factors involved like the health of each team and what not, but the Jazz faced the Spurs in the 2007 playoffs and lost in 5 games and the Hornets faced the Spurs in the 2008 playoffs and lost in 7 games. Here are their respective basic stats against a common opponent only one year removed:

Deron Williams
25.8 PPG
7.8 APG
3.6 RPG
3.2 TO
52.7% FG

Chris Paul
23.7 PPG
10.7 APG
4.4 RPG
2.3 TO
57.4% FG

Chris Paul played better and his team won more games. I mean, if you want to look at a small sample like head-to-head match-ups, this is just as fair to look at when they're playing in the post-season (what matters to you more) and against a common (albeit not exactly the same) opponent.

These numbers are inflated because in the 1st round C3p plays well (except) last year ...plus Dwill has been in the playoffs more he has a WCF trip C3p does not ...

Look not hating on C3p just WATCH he games ...again we will see. I had the same debates with folks when they propped up TMAC talked about his stats and his playoff stats etc.

Look at how Dwill impacts the game if you go buy just PER and numbers hell C3p maybe even better than Magic ...but he's not. he is just NOT CLEARLY better than Dwill either ...and your stats dont prove that. but this matter won't be settled now. Give it 5 years Jam I will be proven right. Id say they are pretty even now you can argue either guy IMHO but I think Dwill will prove to be better and C3p will be the tMAC of PG's

[Killakobe81]

Tried to find a common opponent in the playoffs. It's not in the same post-season so there are other different factors involved like the health of each team and what not, but the Jazz faced the Spurs in the 2007 playoffs and lost in 5 games and the Hornets faced the Spurs in the 2008 playoffs and lost in 7 games. Here are their respective basic stats against a common opponent only one year removed:

Deron Williams
25.8 PPG
7.8 APG
3.6 RPG
3.2 TO
52.7% FG

Chris Paul
23.7 PPG
10.7 APG
4.4 RPG
2.3 TO
57.4% FG

Chris Paul played better and his team won more games. I mean, if you want to look at a small sample like head-to-head match-ups, this is just as fair to look at when they're playing in the post-season (what matters to you more) and against a common (albeit not exactly the same) opponent.

EVEN better pull up the last two SERIES C3p was in (Denver and Spurs) vs. Dwill vs. Dwill (Lakers and Lakers)

Compare those stats love to see how those played out ...

[JamStone]

These numbers are inflated because in the 1st round C3p plays well (except) last year ...plus Dwill has been in the playoffs more he has a WCF trip C3p does not ...

Those were playoff statistics of each of those players against the San Antonio Spurs, a common opponent, not their career playoff stats. CP3 and the Hornets faced the Spurs in 2008 in the second round, not the first round. Those numbers aren't "inflated because of the 1st round."



Look not hating on C3p just WATCH he games ...again we will see. I had the same debates with folks when they propped up TMAC talked about his stats and his playoff stats etc.

Look at how Dwill impacts the game if you go buy just PER and numbers hell C3p maybe even better than Magic ...but he's not. he is just NOT CLEARLY better than Dwill either ...and your stats dont prove that. but this matter won't be settled now. Give it 5 years Jam I will be proven right. Id say they are pretty even now you can argue either guy IMHO but I think Dwill will prove to be better and C3p will be the tMAC of PG's

The stats actually do prove that. It's not by a huge margin, but it's clear. Against a common opponent in the playoffs (which matters more to you), CP3 put up clearly better numbers and his team won more games against that common opponent. It is clear. Not a huge difference, but clear.



EVEN better pull up the last two SERIES C3p was in (Denver and Spurs) vs. Dwill vs. Dwill (Lakers and Lakers)

Compare those stats love to see how those played out ...

Sure, I can do that. Deron has better numbers than his stats against the Spurs. But it doesn't really help prove your point, and I'll tell you why after I post the numbers.

CP3 against Denver and San Antonio in the playoffs:
20.8 PPG
10.6 APG
4.4 RPG
3.3 TO
51.1% FG

Deron Williams against the Lakers in the playoffs (2 series):
21.4 PPG
11.2 APG
3.8 RPG
3.5 APG
44.1% FG

So there you go. Deron has slightly better scoring numbers, a fraction better assist numbers. So, now you can go on and claim that it's not clear between the two of them. But, I'll say what you said earlier, "watch the games." Look deeper into the stats. There's a reason why I chose a common playoff opponent in the Spurs to compare stats. Derek Fisher has become a defensive liability. The one time really rock solid defender has become one of the worst defensive point guards in the league over the last couple years. While Deron Williams had to match-up against him, CP3 was matched up against Billups (not a great defender but certainly better than Fisher at this point) and Tony Parker (who at least as speed, quickness, and athleticism to match).

You take that into account, plus the fact that Deron Williams had an unbelievable series against the Lakers while CP3 had one of the worst couple games he could have against Denver, and the numbers are still similar tells you something. All the stats have a negligible difference except FG%.

Again, that's why I chose a common opponent to compare stats.

Like I said, it's not by a huge margin. The two players are close but I still believe it's clear that CP3 is a better player. It's fine if you believe different. There's an argument that there isn't a difference. But, on the flipside, I think there's legitimate evidence that CP3 is "clearly" the better player.

[Goran Dragic]

People in Argentina have noses.


Just make sure they aren't big noses. Nazis have a history of engineering mass genocides involving people with big noses. Heck I'm surprised Ginobili hasn't been gassed yet.

[redzero]

Okay, what the hell is a C3p?

[Killakobe81]

Those were playoff statistics of each of those players against the San Antonio Spurs, a common opponent, not their career playoff stats. CP3 and the Hornets faced the Spurs in 2008 in the second round, not the first round. Those numbers aren't "inflated because of the 1st round."




The stats actually do prove that. It's not by a huge margin, but it's clear. Against a common opponent in the playoffs (which matters more to you), CP3 put up clearly better numbers and his team won more games against that common opponent. It is clear. Not a huge difference, but clear.




Sure, I can do that. Deron has better numbers than his stats against the Spurs. But it doesn't really help prove your point, and I'll tell you why after I post the numbers.

CP3 against Denver and San Antonio in the playoffs:
20.8 PPG
10.6 APG
4.4 RPG
3.3 TO
51.1% FG

Deron Williams against the Lakers in the playoffs (2 series):
21.4 PPG
11.2 APG
3.8 RPG
3.5 APG
44.1% FG

So there you go. Deron has slightly better scoring numbers, a fraction better assist numbers. So, now you can go on and claim that it's not clear between the two of them. But, I'll say what you said earlier, "watch the games." Look deeper into the stats. There's a reason why I chose a common playoff opponent in the Spurs to compare stats. Derek Fisher has become a defensive liability. The one time really rock solid defender has become one of the worst defensive point guards in the league over the last couple years. While Deron Williams had to match-up against him, CP3 was matched up against Billups (not a great defender but certainly better than Fisher at this point) and Tony Parker (who at least as speed, quickness, and athleticism to match).

You take that into account, plus the fact that Deron Williams had an unbelievable series against the Lakers while CP3 had one of the worst couple games he could have against Denver, and the numbers are still similar tells you something. All the stats have a negligible difference except FG%.

Again, that's why I chose a common opponent to compare stats.

Like I said, it's not by a huge margin. The two players are close but I still believe it's clear that CP3 is a better player. It's fine if you believe different. There's an argument that there isn't a difference. But, on the flipside, I think there's legitimate evidence that CP3 is "clearly" the better player.

Solid analysis ...but watch the games. You said Billups matched up with C3P but if you watched the games CPR C3PO whatever ... CP3 was matched up with Dontay jones (the better defender) and Dwill at times was guarded by Kobe also the better defender you cant just pull stats because they alone along with a "starting lineup" can not tell you how the game played out. And yet even still with the stats beng so close as you say in those two series you have Many utah fans wishing others had stepped up while many point to C3p shrinking to end BOTH of those series ...especially the one against the Spurs when Pargo had to carry them late ....

Again i appreciate good debates. And had I not saw both series in question or just saw the Destruction CP3 laid on Dallas or NONE of the head2head matchups ...between the two ...i might of been swayed i respect your posts a lot..but we have to agree to disagree.

Chuck though a moron at times ...said last night he loves c3p but he thinks derron is the best PG ...my original point echoes this.

EVEN despite MY OWN prefference my isue was the media acting that is was clear who is better and I STILL don't believe it is clear either way ...
but again time will tell.
Jamstone I was hoping cp3 could be healthy and they could settle it in a playoff series ...until then let's put this on hold. I think i will be proven right but if not, Ill be the first to come on here and admit I was wrong.

Hope you will do the same ....

[picc84]

Jones guarded CP3 but Kobe was guarding Brewer most of the time. Deron was working against PG's almost exclusively.

[Killakobe81]

Jones guarded CP3 but Kobe was guarding Brewer most of the time. Deron was working against PG's almost exclusively.

I agree MOST of the time point being you cant look at who started to determine what the matchup were ...but thanks.