Darren Collison 20 assists

[Goran Dragic]

Crazy game. Golden State has the ball down 129-132 with 10 seconds left.

[Ice009]

Collison has been awesome.

[DAF86]

20 assist on that game must be like 8 or 9 on a normal NBA game.

[j.dizzle]

LOL at 132-129..wtf did anyone even try play defense? lmao but collison is pretty damn good replacement for CP3

[Goran Dragic]

20 assist on that game must be like 8 or 9 on a normal NBA game.


You have a point there maybe this didn't deserve a thread :lol

[mogrovejo]

Reggie Williams was more impressive. Best D-League call-up of the year. Too bad he can't drive right or finish with the right hand and the Hornets didn't figure it out the entire game. Lack of defensive rebounding killed the Warriors, it was amazing the number of easy, bellow the rim, rebounds they fumbled.

Collison is a solid player, but he isn't even going to be a top-5 PG from this draft.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison is a solid player, but he isn't even going to be a top-5 PG from this draft.

It's fair to say Evans, Jennings and Curry are all ahead of him, but who else do you think rounds out the top 5?

[redzero]

Collison just being the best point guard from the draft. No surprises here.

And Golden State's commentators were crying about the scorekeepers.

[Pelicans78]

Reggie Williams was more impressive. Best D-League call-up of the year. Too bad he can't drive right or finish with the right hand and the Hornets didn't figure it out the entire game. Lack of defensive rebounding killed the Warriors, it was amazing the number of easy, bellow the rim, rebounds they fumbled.

Collison is a solid player, but he isn't even going to be a top-5 PG from this draft.

Collison >>> Curry

I'll give you Evans. Lawson is close. After that, it's not even debateable.

[Pelicans78]

It's fair to say Evans, Jennings and Curry are all ahead of him, but who else do you think rounds out the top 5?

Collison >>> Curry. Curry is a chucker on a bad team. He got abused tonight. Collison is quicker, stronger, better ball-handler, and passer.

[Pelicans78]

Thornton and Collison should be 1st team All-Rookies.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison >>> Curry

I'll give you Evans. Lawson is close. After that, it's not even debateable.


Jennings also >>> Collison. Idk how you can rate Collison ahead of Curry. Collison > Lawson IMO.

[Goran Dragic]

Thornton and Collison should be 1st team All-Rookies.


:lmao right, they should be the starting back court ahead of Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings.

[Pelicans78]

Reggie Williams was more impressive. Best D-League call-up of the year. Too bad he can't drive right or finish with the right hand and the Hornets didn't figure it out the entire game. Lack of defensive rebounding killed the Warriors, it was amazing the number of easy, bellow the rim, rebounds they fumbled.

Collison is a solid player, but he isn't even going to be a top-5 PG from this draft.

Collison abused your boy Rondo a few weeks ago as well.

[Pelicans78]

:lmao right, they should be the starting back court ahead of Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings.

They're putting up much better numbers than Jennings. It's not even close. Milwaukee is better with Ridnhour running their team. Jennings had a good start, but hasn't done shit since.

[redzero]

Oh, look. Ghazi's in this thread. In before he makes a retarded comment about the Hornets being better with Collison at point, even though they have a losing record.

[Pelicans78]

Jennings also >>> Collison. Idk how you can rate Collison ahead of Curry. Collison > Lawson IMO.

Because he does so many things better. The only advantage Curry has is shooting. Curry is no where close to Collison. Collison kicked his ass tonight.

[BRHornet45]

sons Thornton is our real star rookie. amazing how so many people still overlook him. he put up 28 tonight off of 11-19 shooting. dude has been averaging well over 20 points per game when getting at least 28 minutes of playing time.

[Goran Dragic]

They're putting up much better numbers than Jennings.


1) You said they should be first team all rookies, they are both guards, meaning the deserve it over Jennings and Ty Evans. Explain how.

2) Collison: 10.9 points per game, 4.8 assists per game
Thornton: 12.6 points per game, 1.0 assists per game
Jennings: 15.8 points per game, 6.1 assists per game
Curry: 16.0 points per game, 5.4 assists per game

Curry > Jennings > Collison

[Pelicans78]

sons Thornton is our real star rookie. amazing how so many people still overlook him. he put up 28 tonight off of 11-19 shooting. dude has been averaging well over 20 points per game when getting at least 28 minutes of playing time.

Agree. He's having a better season than Collison. He should definitely be 1st team All-Rookie. He's been awesome this season.

[Goran Dragic]

Because he does so many things better. The only advantage Curry has is shooting. Curry is no where close to Collison. Collison kicked his ass tonight.


Oh so you're using the head to head argument, sounds a lot like what Utah and LA fans do when they try to argue D-Will > CP3.

[redzero]

1) You said they should be first team all rookies, they are both guards, meaning the deserve it over Jennings and Ty Evans. Explain how.

2) Collison: 10.9 points per game, 4.8 assists per game
Thornton: 12.6 points per game, 1.0 assists per game
Jennings: 15.8 points per game, 6.1 assists per game
Curry: 16.0 points per game, 5.4 assists per game

Curry > Jennings > Collison

This isn't taking into account the fact that Collison and Thornton came off the bench for parts of the season.

They don't deserve rookie of the year, but they have been very impressive so far.

[mogrovejo]

It's fair to say Evans, Jennings and Curry are all ahead of him, but who else do you think rounds out the top 5?

1) Evans
2) Rubio
3) Jennings
3) Curry


5) Beaubois

6) Collison
7) Holiday

8) Lawson
9)Teague

10)Maynor
11)Flynn
12)Price

[Goran Dragic]

This isn't taking into account the fact that Collison and Thornton came off the bench for parts of the season.


And it shouldn't. Them being too shitty to start the season playing significant minutes is their problem, not Stephen Curry's or Brandon Jennings'.

[redzero]

Rubio and Beaubois? Are you serious?

[Pelicans78]

1) You said they should be first team all rookies, they are both guards, meaning the deserve it over Jennings and Ty Evans. Explain how.

2) Collison: 10.9 points per game, 4.8 assists per game
Thornton: 12.6 points per game, 1.0 assists per game
Jennings: 15.8 points per game, 6.1 assists per game
Curry: 16.0 points per game, 5.4 assists per game

Curry > Jennings > Collison

Those guys have played more minutes, but Collison and Thornton have been more efficient.

Curry has been playing garbage minutes on a bad team.

Jennings's numbers are inflated from one good month. Plus he's shooting terribly. Bucks are better with Ridnhour.

Also, All-Rookies can be the five best rookies regardless of position.

[redzero]

And it shouldn't. Them being too shitty to start is their problem, not Stephen Curry's or Brandon Jennings'.

Obviously, they aren't too shitty to start, if they've been playing like this with starter minutes.

[Ghazi]

Booby > Collison

Booby > Paul

[Goran Dragic]

Those guys have played more minutes, but Collison and Thornton have been more efficient.


I guess Dejuan Blair should be ROY since he's "efficient". The "he plays more minutes" argument is always bullshit.

[Goran Dragic]

Obviously, they aren't too shitty to start, if they've been playing like this with starter minutes.


Jennings and Curry shouldn't be handicapped by the fact they've played more.

[Pelicans78]

Oh so you're using the head to head argument, sounds a lot like what Utah and LA fans do when they try to argue D-Will > CP3.


Look at the overall numbers. Collison has been doing better per minute. He has better numbers than Curry, especially when starting.

[AnthonyM]

I guess Dejuan Blair should be ROY since he's "efficient". The "he plays more minutes" argument is always bullshit.

To be fair to Collison, when given the minutes of a starter such as Curry or Evans or Jennings, he's produced some monster games...

[BRHornet45]

Booby > Collison

Booby > Paul

Hammon > Paul
Hammon > Collison
Hammon > Booby
Hammon > Kidd

mah Becky

[redzero]

Jennings and Curry shouldn't be handicapped by the fact they've played more.

I'm not saying they should. I don't Collison or Thornton should be rookie of the year, and I don't really care about the award anyway.

I'm just glad to have draft picks who aren't complete and total busts.

[Goran Dragic]

Bucks are better with Ridnhour.


Yeah, they went 34-48 last year with Ridnour and they're currently 33-29 with Jennings. Do you have any proof they're better with Ridnour, or is it like when Deron Williams fans say shit like, "Deron Williams is just better than Chris Paul" when they have no backing for it?

[Pelicans78]

Jennings and Curry shouldn't be handicapped by the fact they've played more.

But Curry's not really playing all that well. He's playing for a terrible team and in playing 35 minutes a game, he only averages 5 assists per game despite playing on a fast-paced team. He's really not having much impact.

Besides shooting, what else can he do better than Collison?

[Goran Dragic]

Look at the overall numbers. Collison has been doing better per minute. He has better numbers than Curry, especially when starting.


Dejuan Blair is averaging 15 points 12 rebounds per 36 minutes, maybe he should be ROY.

[BRHornet45]

Dejuan Blair is averaging 15 points 12 rebounds per 36 minutes, maybe he should be ROY.

Thornton is averaging 20.1 per 36 min

[Pelicans78]

Yeah, they went 34-48 last year with Ridnour and they're currently 33-29 with Jennings. Do you have any proof they're better with Ridnour, or is it like when Deron Williams fans say shit like, "Deron Williams is just better than Chris Paul" when they have no backing for it?

Bogut's been healthy this season. He only played in 36 games last season. He's already played in 56. He's by far their best player.

[Goran Dragic]

Besides shooting, what else can he do better than Collison?


Besides 275 pounds, what's the difference between a 400 pound woman and a 125 pound woman?

[Pelicans78]

Dejuan Blair is averaging 15 points 12 rebounds per 36 minutes, maybe he should be ROY.

He could be the second best rookie after Evans. Not sure if anyone would dispute that.

[Pelicans78]

Besides 275 pounds, what's the difference between a 400 pound woman and a 125 pound woman?

I'm comparing two PGs.

[Goran Dragic]

But Curry's not really playing all that well. He's playing for a terrible team and in playing 35 minutes a game

Yeah, like the Hornets are a great team when Collison plays 35 minutes.


he only averages 5 assists per game despite playing on a fast-paced team. He's really not having much impact.


Collison is only averaging 4.8 assists a game.

[Goran Dragic]

He could be the second best rookie after Evans. Not sure if anyone would dispute that.


:lmao, why, because of his good per minute stats?

[Goran Dragic]

I'm comparing two PGs.


You're comparing two basketball players and acting like their ability to put the basketball into the hoop doesn't matter.

[Goran Dragic]

Bogut's been healthy this season. He only played in 36 games last season. He's already played in 56. He's by far their best player.


Are you seriously trying to argue Luke Ridnour > Brandon Jennings?

[Pelicans78]

Yeah, like the Hornets are a great team when Collison plays 35 minutes.




Collison is only averaging 4.8 assists a game.

Collison plays 11 less minutes, basically one quarter less and his assists are basically the same. Only 5 less points.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison plays 11 less minutes


That sucks. Maybe one day he'll be good enough to play more minutes.

[Pelicans78]

Are you seriously trying to argue Luke Ridnour > Brandon Jennings?

Not really, just that Collison is having a better season than Jennings. Jennings is shooting 36% from the field. That's garbage. He plays 10 more minutes a game than Collison and averages just one more assist. How's he having a better season than Collison?

[Pelicans78]

That sucks. Maybe one day he'll be good enough to play more minutes.

Are you saying he sucks because he had to backup Chris Paul for most of the season?

[mogrovejo]

Besides shooting, what else can he do better than Collison?

Better passer.

Better court vision.

Less ball dominant.

Way, way quicker.

Faster.

Better handler in traffic.

More advanced dribble moves.

Jennings is 19 and one year removed from high-school. Collison was a senior in college. Collison's upside is pretty limited. Jennings weak points - finishing at the basket, defence (even though he's not a bad defender) - will very probably disappear or be minimized in the next 2 seasons. OTOH, Collison will never acquire Jennings' quickness or ability to see passing angles and put the ball between the numbers.

[Goran Dragic]

How's he having a better season than Collison?


He plays a larger role than Collison on a team that's better than the team Collison is on. Seems pretty simple.

[mogrovejo]

Hollinger says a lot of crap, but the other day he made a great point about Jennings:


Lee (Boston):

Brandon Jennings - rookie wall or returning to the mean?

John Hollinger:

The latter. Also, one thing we should point out about Jennings as compared to Evans and Curry -- he's the only who's being held accountable on D, asked to get other players involved and manage a game, and generally do the things that PGs on winning teams have to do. Look, Evans is going to win ROY and Curry will likely come in second, and both are tremendous talents ... but right now Jennings is the only one who's actually learning how to play.

[badfish22]

Trade CP3 for young talented players and/or draft picks. This team would be scary.

[Goran Dragic]

Are you saying he sucks because he had to backup Chris Paul for most of the season?

No, I'm saying that the fact he plays less minutes than someone shouldn't have some huge impact like you seem to think it should.

If you wanna talk per minute then Rodrigue Beaubois is in this discussion and is putting up great numbers.

[Goran Dragic]

Better passer.

Better court vision.

Less ball dominant.

Way, way quicker.

Faster.

Better handler in traffic.

More advanced dribble moves.

Jennings is 19 and one year removed from high-school. Collison was a senior in college. Collison's upside is pretty limited. Jennings weak points - finishing at the basket, defence (even though he's not a bad defender) - will very probably disappear or be minimized in the next 2 seasons. OTOH, Collison will never acquire Jennings' quickness or ability to see passing angles and put the ball between the numbers.


I think he was asking about Curry, not Jennings.

[Pelicans78]

Better passer.

Better court vision.

Less ball dominant.

Way, way quicker.

Faster.

Better handler in traffic.

More advanced dribble moves.

Jennings is 19 and one year removed from high-school. Collison was a senior in college. Collison's upside is pretty limited. Jennings weak points - finishing at the basket, defence (even though he's not a bad defender) - will very probably disappear or be minimized in the next 2 seasons. OTOH, Collison will never acquire Jennings' quickness or ability to see passing angles and put the ball between the numbers.


I was talking about Curry not Jennings.

[Pelicans78]

No, I'm saying that the fact he plays less minutes than someone shouldn't have some huge impact like you seem to think it should.

If you wanna talk per minute then Rodrigue Beaubois is in this discussion and is putting up great numbers.

Ok, but do you think Curry has been playing better than Collison while Collison has been starting? Obviously not.

[mogrovejo]

Rubio and Beaubois? Are you serious?

Yes.

I may be wrong about Beaubois, although I doubt it; but I'm fairly sure about Rubio (or Evans, or Curry).

Collison is going to be a solid starter - say Calderon or Felton. Ditto for Holiday.

Beaubois I can see being a key piece in a good team/fringe All-Star.

Curry/Rubio/Evans/Jennings - All-Star appearances, All-NBA teams for a couple of them

[Pelicans78]

I was talking about Curry not Jennings.

You act like Collison is slow.

[Goran Dragic]

Ok, but do you think Curry has been playing better than Collison while Collison has been starting? Obviously not.


Yeah he has, but you can't base his rookie season off the select games he starts. If the ROY voters only judge rookies for the games they start, then yeah, Collison would be a contender.

[mogrovejo]

I was talking about Curry not Jennings.

Sorry, my bad.

Curry will be one of the deadliest scoring point-guards in the league. Top-notch talent as a shooter. Collison simply doesn't have a single skill at this level.

[Goran Dragic]

Sorry, my bad.

Curry will be one of the deadliest scoring point-guards in the league. Top-notch talent as a shooter. Collison simply doesn't have a single skill at this level.


Shooting doesn't matter I guess. Basically Hornet78's question was, "If you take away the reason Stephen Curry is in the NBA, how is he better than Collison?"

[Pelicans78]

Sorry, my bad.

Curry will be one of the deadliest scoring point-guards in the league. Top-notch talent as a shooter. Collison simply doesn't have a single skill at this level.

What are you talking about? He's very fast, good ball-handler, can finish in the paint really well, gets steals, rebounds, good outside shooter, great FT shooter, good passer. Seriously.

[Pelicans78]

Shooting doesn't matter I guess. Basically Hornet78's question was, "If you take away the reason Stephen Curry is in the NBA, how is he better than Collison?"

Shooting is important, but Collison's a good shooter too. He scored over 30 twice this week when he had too. Again, Collison does everything else better than Curry. This is a similar argument when comparing CP3 and Williams. Williams has known to be the better shooter, but CP3 tends to do everything else better, which is why he puts up better numbers.

[Goran Dragic]

What are you talking about? He's very fast, good ball-handler, can finish in the paint really well, gets steals, rebounds, good outside shooter, great FT shooter, good passer. Seriously.


Most would consider Stephen Curry an elite shooter in the NBA. Is Collison considered an elite speedster, elite finisher, elite ball handler, elite outside shooter, or elite passer? If not then you didn't answer his question.

[Pelicans78]

I'm done debating with you Mogrovjo because you basically sealed your fate when you said Collison has no skills at this level.

[Goran Dragic]

Shooting is important, but Collison's a good shooter too. He scored over 30 twice this week when he had too. Again, Collison does everything else better than Curry. This is a similar argument when comparing CP3 and Williams. Williams has known to be the better shooter, but CP3 tends to do everything else better, which is why he puts up better numbers.


I don't get this comparison. DWill is a better shooter than CP3 but CP3 is a better scorer. Stephen Curry is a better shooter and scorer than Collison.

[Pelicans78]

Most would consider Stephen Curry an elite shooter in the NBA. Is Collison considered an elite speedster, elite finisher, elite ball handler, elite outside shooter, or elite passer? If not then you didn't answer his question.

Hmm, just because Curry is elite at one good thing and Collison is bascially very good at everything, Curry is the better PG right now. Collison could be considered an elite speedster. But he's very good at pretty much everything else.

[Pelicans78]

I don't get this comparison. DWill is a better shooter than CP3 but CP3 is a better scorer. Stephen Curry is a better shooter and scorer than Collison.

The only reason he averages more points per game is because he's played more minutes. Collison has been averaging more since starting. I never said Curry was the better scorer.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison could be considered an elite speedster.


I'm talking outside of the city of New Orleans involving the opinion of people not wearing their baby blue Hornets homer glasses.

[Goran Dragic]

I never said Curry was the better scorer.


I did. Curry scores at a more efficient rate and scores more points per game. It's not even a question.

[Pelicans78]

I'm talking outside of the city of New Orleans involving the opinion of people not wearing their baby blue Hornets homer glasses.

I think alot people have seen what Collison is capable of when playing full-time.

[Pelicans78]

I did. Curry scores at a more efficient rate and scores more points per game. It's not even a question.

He plays on Golden State. He's supposed to score.

[Goran Dragic]

Curry averages 1.203 points per shot, Collison averages 1.172. The fact Curry is able to shoot more than Collison yet maintain a higher efficiency makes him a better scorer.

[Booharv]

If you look at Collison's splits as a starter on espn.com, he has been way, waaaaay better than Jennings as a starter.

Collison: 25 games 39.0 min 19.0 ppg 8.3 apg 48.0 fg% .404 3 pt fg% 86.735 ft%

Jennings: 62 games 33.1 min 15.8 ppg 6.1 apg 36.6 fg% .383 3 pt fg% 80.9 ft%

Unless you're arguing Collison would hit the wall playing as much as Jennings there's really no comparison. The big key is fg%; while Jennings is awful, Collison has been very solid as a starter.

[Pelicans78]

Curry averages 1.203 points per shot, Collison averages 1.172. The fact Curry is able to shoot more than Collison yet maintain a higher efficiency makes him a better scorer.

Forget about Collison, lets talk about Thornton. He's actually been the Hornets best rookie. He's been a monster lately. The guy keeps scoring for the last couple of weeks has been shooting at a high FG% What a steal for a 2nd round pick.

[Goran Dragic]

Forget about Collison, lets talk about Thornton. He's actually been the Hornets best rookie. He's been a monster lately. The guy keeps scoring for the last couple of weeks has been shooting at a high FG% What a steal for a 2nd round pick.


Thornton probably deserves a 1st all rookie team, I forgot any 5 players can make it.

[Pelicans78]

Thornton probably deserves a 1st all rookie team, I forgot any 5 players can make it.

So I guess we agree to disagree.

[mogrovejo]

What are you talking about? He's very fast, good ball-handler, can finish in the paint really well, gets steals, rebounds, good outside shooter, great FT shooter, good passer. Seriously.

Yes, he's good at plenty of things. His game is pretty polished. As I've said, he's a future quality starter who's going to reach his pinnacle as a player very soon.

He doesn't really defend or rebound as well as Rondo or Westbrook, doesn't shoot or pass like Curry, doesn't have the creativity of Rubio or Jennings, isn't as explosive and athletic as Rondo or Westbrook, isn't as quick as Jennings, doesn't use picks as well as Curry, etc.

[Pelicans78]

I'm done debating you. I'm talking about Thornton now.

[Goran Dragic]

If you look at Collison's splits as a starter on espn.com, he has been way, waaaaay better than Jennings as a starter.

Collison: 25 games 39.0 min 19.0 ppg 8.3 apg 48.0 fg% .404 3 pt fg% 86.735 ft%

Jennings: 62 games 33.1 min 15.8 ppg 6.1 apg 36.6 fg% .383 3 pt fg% 80.9 ft%

Unless you're arguing Collison would hit the wall playing as much as Jennings there's really no comparison. The big key is fg%; while Jennings is awful, Collison has been very solid as a starter.


OK neat, you can cherry pick the best 25 games of Collison's season and ignore the rest. I can do something similar:


If you look at Jennings' splits comparing when he does/doesn't score 50+ points, he has Collison killed as a 50 point scorer.

Jennings: 55 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 61.8% shooting,
Collison: no games as a 50 point scorer

[mogrovejo]

You weren't debating, you're learning.

[Booharv]

Listing his stats as a starter is cherrypicking?

[Goran Dragic]

Listing his stats as a starter is cherrypicking?


Yes. You can't just ignore the other games.

[Pelicans78]

You weren't debating, you're learning.

Collison will be better than Rondo.

[mogrovejo]

Collison will be better than Rondo.

Are you the same nutjob who wanted to trade Chris Paul? I can't tell, all you Hornets fans look the same to me.

[redzero]

Yes.

I may be wrong about Beaubois, although I doubt it; but I'm fairly sure about Rubio (or Evans, or Curry).

Collison is going to be a solid starter - say Calderon or Felton. Ditto for Holiday.

Beaubois I can see being a key piece in a good team/fringe All-Star.

Curry/Rubio/Evans/Jennings - All-Star appearances, All-NBA teams for a couple of them

Rubio hasn't played a single game, and you claim that he's going to be an All Star? And Beaubois shouldn't even be in the discussion.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison will be better than Rondo.


How do you see Collison becoming any better than he currently is? It's pretty clear he's either hit his ceiling or is pretty close. Even with several years in the league Rondo has room to grow.

[Pelicans78]

Are you the same nutjob who wanted to trade Chris Paul? I can't tell, all you Hornets fans look the same to me.

We might not have a choice. He could easily leave in a couple of season and Hornets are stuck with Okafor's contract so it will be hard to build a team around CP3 in the next two seasons unless we got lucky in the draft.

[Pelicans78]

How do you see Collison becoming any better than he currently is? It's pretty clear he's either hit his ceiling or is pretty close. Even with several years in the league Rondo has room to grow.

Rondo is still a poor shooter even after a few years. Collison can easily improve his game. He's only 22 years old. He can refine his shooting even more, get bigger and stronger, learn how to defend better, how to make less turnovers, etc.

[Booharv]

Cherrypicking is picking stats manipulated to make a player look good, like games versus a team who have no pg defense. Of his 25 starts a ton came against playoff teams it's not some randomly picked grouping against bad teams or some convoluted "games on 3 days rest versus east coast teams" stat. I really don't see the cherrypicking.

[redzero]

How do you see Collison becoming any better than he currently is? It's pretty clear he's either hit his ceiling or is pretty close. Even with several years in the league Rondo has room to grow.

If Collison can do what he's doing now without all the turnovers, then that would be a significant improvement.

[Goran Dragic]

Cherrypicking is picking stats manipulated to make a player look good, like games versus a team who have no pg defense. Of his 25 starts a ton came against playoff teams it's not some randomly picked grouping against bad teams or some convoluted "games on 3 days rest versus east coast teams" stat. I really don't see the cherrypicking.


Are you leaving certain stats out to inflate the guy's number and make it seem like he's having a better season than he's having? It's a yes or no question. If the answer is yes, then you're cherry picking.

[Pelicans78]

Steve Nash hates you.

[redzero]

Steve Nash hates you.

The feeling is mutual between them.

[Goran Dragic]

Steve Nash hates you.


He wishes Darren Collison was his backup so his starting job would be more secure. I don't blame him.

[Pelicans78]

He wishes Darren Collison was his backup so his starting job would be more secure. I don't blame him.

Suns beat Utah if you played.

[jdev82]

its the hornets system. place collison in another system with actual rookie minutes and hed show you what hes really made of. same with paul

[Booharv]

No, because it includes several bad or weak games he had as a starter and those are still his averages. I mean it's not some list of his best games as a starter it's all his games starting. Seriously though, those numbers as a starter really don't impress you?

Also, even including his stats as a backup his TS% and PER is significantly better than Jennings. And he's shooting a hundred points higher. Jennings shouldn't be given points for playing more just because he lucked out and landed on a team w/o Chris Paul.

[redzero]

its the hornets system. place collison in another system with actual rookie minutes and hed show you what hes really made of. same with paul

Really? Then, teams with point guard problems should definitely seek out the Hornets' coaching staff for advice.

[Pelicans78]

its the hornets system. place collison in another system with actual rookie minutes and hed show you what hes really made of. same with paul

Bobby Brown, Antonio Daniels, and Mike James disagree

[Goran Dragic]

No, because it includes several bad or weak games he had as a starter and those are still his averages.

So you didn't leave off any games? You've included all the games he's played in this season? It's a simple question.



I mean it's not some list of his best games as a starter it's all his games starting.

If he's so good why do you only have to bring up his games as a starter? Why aren't his games as CP3's shoe shiner brought up? If he was as good as you say he is his coach would play him more. The fact is the Hornets suck when he starts, so they minimize the amount of times he starts.



Seriously though, those numbers as a starter really don't impress you?

Not as much as Brandon Jennings' numbers as a 50 point scorer impress me.



Also, even including his stats as a backup his TS% and PER is significantly better than Jennings.

Greg Oden's TS% and PER is higher than Kobe's. Maybe the Lakers should trade Kobe for Greg Oden.



Jennings shouldn't be given points for playing more just because he lucked out and landed on a team w/o Chris Paul.

You're right, the fact he's playing more on a team w/o Chris Paul that's better than the team with Chris Paul shouldn't count.

[Pelicans78]

[/quote]
You're right, the fact he's playing more on a team w/o Chris Paul that's better than the team with Chris Paul shouldn't count.[/quote]

Hornets w/ CP3 > Bucks.

[Goran Dragic]

Really? Then, teams with point guard problems should definitely seek out the Hornets' coaching staff for advice.


The Hornets have designed a great system to inflate PG numbers. As far as winning basketball games and having playoff success, different story. Congrats on having a coaching staff that might not be able to win games but can make PG's look studly.

[Booharv]

Since he can never play ahead of Paul (and neither could Jennings) you have to go by per minute stats when Paul plays, not sure why this is complicated. Also, Jennings 36.6% fg is the turd in the punch bowl of the Pro-Jennings argument. He's been one of the worst shooters in the league strictly measuring fg%.

[Goran Dragic]

Hornets w/ Darren Collison as a backup > Bucks.


thanks for proving my point. In order to be on a team as good as the one Brandon Jennings starts on, Darren Collison needs to be a backup. When he starts his team becomes worse than the Bucks.

[Booharv]

The Hornets have designed a great system to inflate PG numbers. As far as winning basketball games and having playoff success, different story. Congrats on having a coaching staff that might not be able to win games but can make PG's look studly.

That's actually your best point, but Milwaukee hasn't exactly made Jennings play in the triangle either.

[Pelicans78]

thanks for proving my point. In order to be on a team as good as the one Brandon Jennings starts on, Darren Collison needs to be a backup. When he starts his team becomes worse than the Bucks.

Bucks have only been better since the trade deadline when they acquired Salmon. He and Bogut are having to carry the load since Jennings can't hit the side of a barn.

[Goran Dragic]

That's actually your best point, but Milwaukee hasn't exactly made Jennings play in the triangle either.


Milwaukee has made Jennings the starter on an above .500 playoff team. New Orleans starts Collison as a plan B knowing that they won't make the playoffs if CP3 doesn't come back soon and reduce Collison's role.

[Pelicans78]

Bucks are 9-1 since the Salmons trade.

[Xylus]

:lmao 23 rebounds for the Warriors tonight.

[Booharv]

Jennings shooting stats by month:
October: 51.6%
November: 42.0%
December: 36.7%
January: 32.4%
February: 30.7%
March (so far): 30.4%

Yikes.

[Goran Dragic]

Bucks have only been better since the trade deadline when they acquired Salmon. He and Bogut are having to carry the load since Jennings can't hit the side of a barn.


No, the Bucks have been better since Michael Redd went down. They started off 8-3. Michael Redd came back. They went 7-16. Michael Redd went down when they were 15-19. After that they played .500 basketball before the Salmons trade. As long as Michael Redd was out, Jennings had the Bucks playing above .500 basketball without Salmons.

[Goran Dragic]

Jennings shooting stats by month:
October: 51.6%
November: 42.0%
December: 36.7%
January: 32.4%
February: 30.7%
March (so far): 30.4%

Yikes.


Neat he's shooting poorly. He can do more for a playoff team than play backup. Collison can't.

[Goran Dragic]

Also, having a good pick and roll guy in David West is the reason Collison is putting up such good numbers as a starter. Take away Collison's option to whore the pick and roll for 48 minutes and he doesn't put up such good stats. Jennings would shoot better and put up better numbers if he had a good pick and roll big.

[Pelicans78]

Neat he's shooting poorly. He can do more for a playoff team than play backup. Collison can't.

He's not doing anything for the Bucks these days. Ridnhour runs the team when it counts. The Bucks would be even better if they had Collison.

[Pelicans78]

Also, having a good pick and roll guy in David West is the reason Collison is putting up such good numbers as a starter. Take away Collison's option to whore the pick and roll for 48 minutes and he doesn't put up such good stats. Jennings would shoot better and put up better numbers if he had a good pick and roll big.

Bogut is having a better year then West.

[Goran Dragic]

Bogut is having a better year then West.


Has nothing to do with what I said. West is one of the best power forwards and centers to run pick and rolls with in the NBA. Bogut is a low post player. There's no stat for dumping an entry pass down to Bogut so he can post up, there's a stat for dishing to ball to West on a pick and roll or pick and pop.

[redzero]

The Hornets have designed a great system to inflate PG numbers. As far as winning basketball games and having playoff success, different story. Congrats on having a coaching staff that might not be able to win games but can make PG's look studly.

I'm curious, what system are you talking about?

Collison having a good year as a starter = he's a product of a system?

[Goran Dragic]

He's not doing anything for the Bucks these days.


He seems to be doing more for them than Collison is for the Hornets. Congrats to Collison, he can run pick and rolls with West all day and run up his stat line.

[Booharv]

Neat he's shooting poorly. He can do more for a playoff team than play backup. Collison can't.

Not sure what you have to offer other than your opinion to back that up. Collison is better when he gets a chance to play a full game and his per minute numbers are better than Jennings when he doesn't. And Jennings is not shooting poorly the last couple of months, he's shooting unbelievably bad. Like historically bad.

[Pelicans78]

Has nothing to do with what I said. West is one of the best power forwards and centers to run pick and rolls with in the NBA. Bogut is a low post player. There's no stat for dumping an entry pass down to Bogut so he can post up, there's a stat for dishing to ball to West on a pick and roll or pick and pop.

Not true. Bucks do run a pick n roll with Bogut. The problem is Jennings can't shoot so opposing teams go under and force him to shoot.

[Goran Dragic]

Collison having a good year as a starter = he's a product of a system?


Somewhat. He's not putting up these numbers in a balanced offense. He's putting up good numbers in an offense that doesn't run any plays other than the PG-PF pick and roll.

[Goran Dragic]

Bucks do run a pick n roll with Bogut.


Do they do it anywhere near as often as Nawlins runs pick and rolls with West? I highly doubt that considering the Collison/Paul-West pick and roll is the one play New Orleans runs in the half court.

[Pelicans78]

He seems to be doing more for them than Collison is for the Hornets. Congrats to Collison, he can run pick and rolls with West all day and run up his stat line.

Why is he shooting a higher percentage than Jennings?

[Pelicans78]

Do they do it anywhere near as often as Nawlins runs pick and rolls with West? I highly doubt that considering the Collison/Paul-West pick and roll is the one play New Orleans runs in the half court.

That was with Byron Scott. They've made lots of changes since Bower took over and Tim Floyd was hired as top assistant. They run alot more motion now and set up plays for other guys like Peja, Thornton, and even Okafor at times. West is posting up alot more than in the past.

[Goran Dragic]

Why is he shooting a higher percentage than Jennings?


Running pick and rolls with players like David West and Amare Stoudemire create higher percentage shots for PG's, and you're kidding yourself if you think the Bucks run half as many pick and rolls as the Hornets do, or if you think Bogut is as good as pick and roll big as West is.

[Pelicans78]

Running pick and rolls with players like David West and Amare Stoudemire create higher percentage shots for PG's, and you're kidding yourself if you think the Bucks run half as many pick and rolls as the Hornets do, or if you think Bogut is as good as pick and roll big as West is.

Again, the Hornets aren't a pick n roll team anymore. They play more uptempo than previous seasons and spread the floor now going smaller. Also run plays for other people too. The biggest reason why the Hornets are struggling is defensively. They were a top ten team the last two seasons. With Okafor at center, they've become bottom-ten defensively.

[Goran Dragic]

Again, the Hornets aren't a pick n roll team anymore. They play more uptempo than previous seasons and spread the floor now going smaller. Also run plays for other people too. The biggest reason why the Hornets are struggling is defensively. They were a top ten team the last two seasons. With Okafor at center, they've become bottom-ten defensively.


OK so they go small and speed up the game......more ways to inflate PG numbers.

[Goran Dragic]

They play more uptempo than previous seasons and spread the floor now going smaller.


That's what happens when you speed up the tempo and go small.....you start to suck at defense.

[Pelicans78]

OK so they go small and speed up the game......more ways to inflate PG numbers.

The Bucks go small too with Ridnhour and Jennings in the backcourt.

[Pelicans78]

That's what happens when you speed up the tempo and go small.....you start to suck at defense.

They miss Chandler defensively, but their tempo is still good with Okafor in the game especially with Thornton and Collison running the floor.

[Booharv]

:lmao at changing your argument midstream from pick n roll offense inflates his stats to now small ball does. What do you have against this guy?

[redzero]

:lmao at changing your argument midstream from pick n roll offense inflates his stats to now small ball does. What do you have against this guy?

I don't understand how the Hornets' style of play can be used against Collison.

[Goran Dragic]

They miss Chandler defensively, but their tempo is still good with Okafor in the game especially with Thornton and Collison running the floor.


My point is that speeding up the tempo is known to inflate PG stats. We all know what happened to Steve Nash when Terry Porter tried to incorporate a traditional offense.

[Pelicans78]

My point is that speeding up the tempo is known to inflate PG stats. We all know what happened to Steve Nash when Terry Porter tried to incorporate a traditional offense.

Of course it does, but it doesn't mean Jennings would be as productive.

[Booharv]

He's hasn't produced much since his first month in the league yet everyone is acting like he's having a great season. The Bucks spread the floor when Illyasova comes in a PF with Salmons a SF.

Basically, Jennings isn't play as well as everyone thinks he is. Basically Collison is having a better season yet you don't want to admit it.

Re-read the thread, I've been arguing for Collison all along.

[Goran Dragic]

:lmao at changing your argument midstream from pick n roll offense inflates his stats to now small ball does. What do you have against this guy?


I didn't change my argument. Pick and rolls + small ball are both ways to inflate PG stats. And I have nothing against Collison, he's simply not as good as Jennings. Jennings would put up better numbers if he played in a gimmicky offense that whored pick and rolls and played small ball.

[Pelicans78]

Re-read the thread, I've been arguing for Collison all along.

I know, LOL. I tried to delete it before you read it.

[Goran Dragic]

I don't understand how the Hornets' style of play can be used against Collison.


Because it's a style of play that caters to making the PG look good. Jennings as mogro pointed out is being taught how to play real basketball and run a real offense.

[Pelicans78]

I didn't change my argument. Pick and rolls + small ball are both ways to inflate PG stats. And I have nothing against Collison, he's simply not as good as Jennings. Jennings would put up better numbers if he played in a gimmicky offense that whored pick and rolls and played small ball.

It's not true. He doesn't score effectively enough. Collison is shooting better than him.

[Pelicans78]

Because it's a style of play that caters to making the PG look good. Jennings as mogro pointed out is being taught how to play real basketball and run a real offense.

Hollinger and Mogro were comparing Jennings to Curry and Evans. That article had nothing to do with Collison.

[Goran Dragic]

It's not true. He doesn't score effectively enough. Collison is shooting better than him.


Collison shooting better is directly because of the offense, that's what I'm saying.

[Pelicans78]

Collison shooting better is directly because of the offense, that's what I'm saying.

I don't think so. Jennings is settling for alot more jumpers and he's missing badly. He needs to relax a little bit.

[Goran Dragic]

Well, this argument is going nowhere. I wish I was more like you and took more pride in the Phoenix Suns creating a system that inflates the stats of point guards and didn't care that that system can't win shit. Prahps to them for inflating Collison's stats.

[Goran Dragic]

I don't think so. Jennings is settling for alot more jumpers and he's missing badly. He needs to relax a little bit.


He'd be able to drive more if he had a pick and roll big who could shoot like David West and suck defenders out of the paint.

[Pelicans78]

He'd be able to drive more if he had a pick and roll big who could shoot like David West and suck defenders out of the paint.

The Bucks have decent shooters, even besides Bogut. I just think he's not playing with alot of confidence.

[Darthkiller]

bucks play one of the slowest pace and runs very tight offensive set, unlike hornets who play a uptempo pace with a lot of freedom.

jennings is a very very low turnover point guard, which is rare and very impressive.

[Pelicans78]

Well, this argument is going nowhere. I wish I was more like you and took more pride in the Phoenix Suns creating a system that inflates the stats of point guards and didn't care that that system can't win shit. Prahps to them for inflating Collison's stats.

Losing Tyson Chandler killed the Hornets defense. They were trying to trade him last season because they knew he would never be the same player again with his foot injury. Okafor hasn't provided the same presence defensively The team had a slow start due to a coaching change and alot of new players on the team, but hit their stride in January before CP3's knee injury. They were on their way to making the playoffs.

The big problem with losing CP3 is not having anyone providing Collison's production off the bench. The team got much thinner with the injury.

[Pelicans78]

Well, I guess we all agree to disagree. This thread is CLOSED!

[Booharv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never mentioned small ball until Hornets fans pointed out that your "pick n roll all-day" offense argument was flawed because the Hornets were no longer a predominately pick n roll team. Maybe you already believed it, but didn't mention it. Maybe you mentioned it elsewhere. I don't know. Anyways, you're right that this is getting pointless. No one's convincing me Jennings is better than Collison at this point and vice versa for you.