Hollinger's greatest shooters of all time article

[monosylab1k]

can anyone post it?

I'm sure he found some formula to put 8 different members of the Utah Jazz into his top 10, along with figuring out how point differential somehow makes Dirk the most overrated shooter ever.

[mogrovejo]

Greatest shooters ever
PER Diem: March 9, 2010

John Hollinger
ESPN.com


Steve Nash may be known more for his passing skills, but his shooting ability ain't too shabby either.

You'll often hear casual basketball fans lament the lack of shooting in today's game, especially from the free throw line. But actually, we have the opposite problem: The current NBA is littered with great shooters. In fact, several of the best shooters of all time are currently on NBA rosters, and most of them are more or less in their prime.

Without leaving the top half of the Western Conference standings, for instance, I can point out names like Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojakovic, Kevin Martin and Chauncey Billups, all of whom have put together multiple seasons that rank among the best shooting performances in history. That's to say nothing of the other great shooters in the league -- Ray Allen, Jason Kapono, free throw-record holder Jose Calderon, Ben Gordon, Kyle Korver … the list goes on and on.

But which one is the best of the best? Aye, there's the rub. We've never had a clear metric for ranking the game's best shooters … well, at least until today's ill-advised endeavor. That's right -- we're going to try ranking the best shooters in the game's history.

First, a caveat: By "history," we're limiting ourselves to the 3-point era. There were plenty of great shooters who played prior to that point, but we have no way to verify their cases statistically. In particular, it appears Calvin Murphy and Rick Barry -- two players from the 1970s who were renowned for their shooting range and rank among the top six free throw shooters of all time -- are slighted by today's methodology. Bill Sharman, Mike Newlin and Fred Brown also get my apologies.

OK, now for the method. My first step is to require players pass through a couple of fairly low "gates:" shooting 85 percent from the line with at least a 45 percent mark on 3s, or shooting 87.5 percent from the line with at least 42.5 percent made on 3s, or shooting 90 percent from the stripe with at least 40 percent made on 3s.

The point at this stage isn't to determine the best shooter of all time but to eliminate all the players we know darn well aren't the best shooter of all time. This does an efficient job, narrowing our list to 44 players.

From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively.

The one thing I left out was frequency. Obviously, players who pick their spots get higher-percentage looks than those who are the focal point of the offense on play after play. On the other hand, it's extremely difficult for players in the former group to shoot well enough from the line to crack the elite on this list, simply because of the lack of in-game repetition. Several snipers with great numbers from the floor (Brent Barry, for instance, or Hubert Davis) couldn't get into the top 10 because of free throw percentage, and even the second-ranked player on our list (one of the all-time snipers) has the worst free throw percentage of anybody in the top 10.

Also, I did set two minimum standards: 10,000 career minutes and 250 made 3-pointers. I didn't want anybody getting onto the list with a lengthy career sparsely populated with 3-point attempts; that seemed counter to the point of the exercise. While arbitrary, 250 nicely separated the truly deadly long-range shooters from the guys who merely hit midrange J's and made their free throws.

So now that our rather simple CSR method is clear, let's get to our list of the top 10 shooters, which also apparently doubles as a great predictor of post-career broadcasting, coaching and front-office opportunities. According to CSR, they are:

Top All-Time Shooters By CSR
Player 2-Pt% 3-Pt% FT% CSR
Steve Nash .515 .431 .903 1.849
Steve Kerr .494 .454 .864 1.812
Reggie Miller .525 .395 .888 1.807
Mark Price .501 .402 .904 1.807
Jeff Hornacek .515 .403 .877 1.795
Chris Mullin .533 .384 .865 1.783
Peja Stojakovic .485 .400 .895 1.779
Larry Bird .509 .376 .886 1.770
Ray Allen .482 .396 .893 1.770
Dana Barros .488 .411 .858 1.757
Min. 10,000 career minutes

That's right: Steve Nash. By a mile.

I've always written that his shooting is his most underappreciated skill, but even so, this blows me away.

It makes sense, though -- run through the numbers, and Nash crushes every possible competitor. And it becomes even more impressive when one considers nearly all his shots from the field have come off the dribble. Nash and the fourth-ranked player on this list, Mark Price, are the only two players in history to shoot better than 50 percent on 2s, 40 percent on 3s and 90 percent from the line for their careers. And as it happens, Nash's general manager in Phoenix, Steve Kerr, is second on the list.

One strong point of this list is that it acknowledges a few of the game's great midrange shooters. Neither Chris Mullin nor Jeff Hornacek shot the 3 with great frequency, for instance, but both were deadly accurate when they did, and they were exceptional from 2-point range.

Fans of "Larry Legend" undoubtedly will be disappointed to see him ninth on this list and to see one player of his own size -- Stojakovic -- rank just ahead of him. But Bird's greatest asset was his ability to make high-difficulty shots, which would need to be part of a different list entirely -- a list that would include different players. (Kobe Bryant, for one obvious example, is nowhere close on the above list but would have to rank high on any list of tough-shot makers.)

If you're wondering about Nowitzki, he is 13th, and easily the best among players 6-foot-10 or taller. Players 11 to 20 on this list are Barry, Hersey Hawkins, Nowitzki, Davis, Korver, Mo Williams, Danny Ainge, Allan Houston, Scott Skiles and Glen Rice.

Before I exit, some players who didn't make my list warrant mentioning.

The first is Drazen Petrovic, who just missed my minutes cut-off because of his untimely death in 1993. Petro's rating of 1.799 would have put him fifth on the list, a fact that becomes even more impressive when one considers he was only 28 when he died -- most players improve their numbers on the above criteria well into their 30s.

The second is Calderon, who needs only 779 more minutes to crack the list; his 1.805 career mark would place him fifth. Calderon also has only 238 made 3s on his career and needs to make 12 more of those. You might think his free throw percentage carries him into the top 10, but actually it's his amazing 2-point field goal percentage that does it. Calderon has shot 53.4 percent for his career on 2-point shots, the best mark of any of the 44 players in this study.

Finally, two young players on the Golden State Warriors have established a great chance of finishing their careers near the top of this list. Rookie Stephen Curry is at 1.770 thus far in his brief career, and should that number hold up, he'll finish his career in the top 10. Since players' shooting often improves dramatically in their second through fifth seasons, he could finish as one of the top-ranked players of all time.

Then again, he also might finish second among current Warriors. Curry's teammate, Anthony Morrow, has played two NBA seasons as a part-time starter, and posted career marks of 48.8 percent on 2s, 45.9 percent on 3s and 87.6 percent from the line. That's good for a CSR of 1.822, which is better than every other player in history except Nash.

Obviously we're dealing with smaller sample sizes with those two, and it's possible they'll regress in future seasons. But when we discuss the great all-time shooters, those two are worth tracking in future seasons to see if they warrant a spot in the conversation.

[monosylab1k]

thanks :tu

[Edward]

IMO it's a bullshit method. You can't just set a minimum amount of 3 point attempts to qualify. Miller shot a better % from the field and was a better free throw shooter than Kerr but since the only 3's Kerr attempted were wide open shots created by someone else he's got a higher %, doesn't mean he's a better shooter. He might have shot 45.4% while Reggie Miller shot 39.5%, but Miller has 2560 career threes while Kerr has 726 career threes.

[Edward]

Miller and Ray Allen are in a league of their own as the two best shooters ever and Peja is a distant 3rd and Nash close behind him as the 4th best of all time. Players like Kerr who attempted less than 2 3's a game don't stack up to what Miller and Allen were able to do.

[DAF86]

Agreed with Steve Nash, he's the best shooter I have ever seen. And with him it doesn't matter if he's spot up or fading away or in one leg, he always seems to hit his shots at a high %. Something a lot of the guys on the list can't do.

[TDMVPDPOY]

its bs

nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list

[TDMVPDPOY]

its bs

nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list

[dirk4mvp]

\Peja i\

gtfo. an assload of players can hit 3's at a good rate when they only shots they take are open spot up 3's.

[Goran Dragic]

gtfo. an assload of players can hit 3's at a good rate when they only shots they take are open spot up 3's.

Peja is 4th all time in career makes and idk what Peja you watched when he was on Sacramento saying the only 3's he could make were up spot up threes.

[Muser]

Peja above Bird :lmao

[dirk4mvp]

Peja is 4th all time in career makes and idk what Peja you watched when he was on Sacramento saying the only 3's he could make were up spot up threes.

I watched the same Peja most others watched. He's not out there taking Ray Allen or Reggie type 3's.

Kidd is also high on the list of career makes. What's your point?

[monosylab1k]

with Sacramento, Peja was sick. Hitting shots contested or wide open. As a pure shooter he's absolutely in the top 10.

[Goran Dragic]

its bs

nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list


Nash also played in offenses that are known to inflate stats and has always been more feared as a passer then as a scorer. In other words teams have always been more focused in limiting Nash's assists than they have limiting Nash's threes. Hollinger says it himself in this article, he had no idea Nash was such a good shooter. Nash's shooting has managed to sneak under the radar for so long because it didn't kill teams like his passing did.

With Miller and Allen everyone knew they were scorers who could win games with their shooting, yet they managed to put up those numbers regardless of the fact they played on some scrubby teams with little to no other threats to take attention off them. Don't get me wrong, Nash is one of the best shooters of all time, but his shooting stats are somewhat a bi-product of his other game.

[Goran Dragic]

I watched the same Peja most others watched. He's not out there taking Ray Allen or Reggie type 3's.

Kidd is also high on the list of career makes. What's your point?


Yeah, hence why Edward said he's a "distant 3rd" behind Allen and Miller. No one is saying he's as good as them.

:lol comparing him to Kidd. Kidd is a 40% career FG shooter and a 34.7% career 3 point shooter and only averages 13.6 PPG career wise. I'm not saying career 3's made is the decider, I'm saying when %'s are close like these are you need to look at volume.

[ambchang]

Does not take into account any defenses that are played by era? Is Hollinger trying to say that shooting 50% in the fast-breaking 80s is the same as shooting 50% in the thugball 90's which is the same as shooting 50% from the no handcheck 00's?

It also does not take into account the strength of the 3 pt line starting in the mid 90s, nor does it take into effect the few years with the shortened 3 pt line.

This list reeks of fail.

[atxrocker]

with Sacramento, Peja was sick. Hitting shots contested or wide open. As a pure shooter he's absolutely in the top 10.

Agreed. He had pin point accuracy during his Sac days. It was fun to watch.

[Phillip]

ive always thought steve nash is the best shooter in NBA history

there isnt a single kind of jumpshot he cant make. runners, 3 pointers, mid range, fading, falling to side, off balance, bank, baseline... you name it, he hits it.

[Girasuck]

For my money, I haven't seen a better shooter than Hornecek within the past 25 years. I felt this way when he was in Phoenix and Philadelphia before his time with the Jazz.

[Cane]

Peja above Bird :lmao

Bird's definitely a better overall talent especially at making difficult shots but he's had a few seasons where his 3% was in the 20-30% range (although in relatively few attempts) and he's had the unfortunate back injury which might have an impact as well.


Does not take into account any defenses that are played by era? Is Hollinger trying to say that shooting 50% in the fast-breaking 80s is the same as shooting 50% in the thugball 90's which is the same as shooting 50% from the no handcheck 00's?

It also does not take into account the strength of the 3 pt line starting in the mid 90s, nor does it take into effect the few years with the shortened 3 pt line.

This list reeks of fail.

Actually he acknowledges those factors but it does seem like a simplistic stat:

"From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively."

[mogrovejo]

I agree with Peja above Bird as a pure shooter (and I agree with Hollinger's rationale - Bird was much more a shot-creator than a shooter). It's difficult to compare players from different eras as shooters because the game changed so much with the introduction of the 3 point line (which was a novelty when Bird entered the league).

For example, sticking with Bird and Stojakovic: Bird took 17334 shots throughout his career, 1727 of which were 3s. That's less than 10%. OTOH, the croatian took 10492 shots, of which 4256 were 3s. That's almost 50%.

Specialist jump-shooters, who can truly dominate a game shooting jumpers, are a relatively recent development. If Bird was playing today, nobody would call him a "shooter". Even LBJ has more the shot-selection of a shooter than Bird and it isn't particularly close. Magic Johnson was possibly a worse shooter than Rondo for most of his career.

[endrity]

Fair list, and in fact I agree with most of Hollinger's rationale. There isn't any big surprises there. Dirk's relatively not-so-stellar 3pt% might hurt him a bit, I want to see how he does on any list of 'mid-range' shooters, 12-17 ft.

Also, I am not surprised with Nash being at the top. His form is excellent, his follow-through also. When trying to improve my jump shot I tried to copy Nash's style, and I admit that my shot improved quite a bit, so I've always had a bit of a soft spot for him as a shooter. He's probably not as good coming around screens like Ray Allen or Peja at his peak were, but in terms of creating his own jump shot he is probably better than those two. Nice read by prof. Hollinger this time!

[jacobdrj]

Didn't read the article, and I won't comment on those I did not see play. So from those I have:

In no particular order:

Reggie Miller
Sam Cassell
Rip Hamilton
Ray Allen
Glen Rice
Steve Kerr
Peja Sonnavavich
Dirk
Steve Nash
Alan Houston


Scoring is not shooting. And I included guys who don't have jumpers I would ever teach anyone.

Kobe is a scorer. Pierce is a scorer. Iverson was a scorer. Jordan (while proficient) was a scorer.

I never saw JW play, Alex English play, Larry Bird play...

[Sportstudi]

Well, Hollinger separated the shots to make it possible to distinguish between 2's and 3's. Again some metrcis by him... Within the "normal" stats neither Price nor Nash have a 50/40/90 for their entire career. Nash is quite close though.

Of course, I don't want to take anything away from Nash and Price, both are/were great shooters, absolutely no doubt about it. But IMO Hollinger's metrics are just based on stats and somehow it seems he's using them just the way he needs it right now.

[jimo2305]

and hollinger gets paid?

i mean.. anytime i see an article on espn i cringe when i see the words "by john hollinger"



..seriously..

john needs to hook up some of that espn weed.. ill pay double

[cobbler]

Well, Hollinger separated the shots to make it possible to distinguish between 2's and 3's. Again some metrcis by him... Within the "normal" stats neither Price nor Nash have a 50/40/90 for their entire career. Nash is quite close though.

Of course, I don't want to take anything away from Nash and Price, both are/were great shooters, absolutely no doubt about it. But IMO Hollinger's metrics are just based on stats and somehow it seems he's using them just the way he needs it right now.

Nooooooooooooooooooo! Hollinger? Really? Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[BRHornet45]

and now Peja can't hit the broadside of a barn

[Findog]

Peja and Jason Kapano belong on the list of best pure shooters when nobody is within 10 feet of them.

[monosylab1k]

I don't get the Peja hate. The guy sucks now, but in his prime with the Kings he was money. He hit plenty of shots with a defender in his face, and while Webber was hurt Peja carried that team.

[BRHornet45]

Peja and Jason Kapano belong on the list of best pure shooters when nobody is within 10 feet of them.

son that isn't true. Peja actually still shoots well when guarded closely which is odd. its the wide open shots that he air balls.

[IronMexican]

Peja and Jason Kapano belong on the list of best pure shooters when nobody is within 10 feet of them.

I had to do a double-take to make sure Rogue didn't post that. Peja was killer in 2002.

[Pelicans78]

Dirk deals with alot more contested shots than most guys. Rare to see him get wide open looks.

[Pelicans78]

son that isn't true. Peja actually still shoots well when guarded closely which is odd. its the wide open shots that he air balls.

Peja only hits wide open three's and badly misses on wide open mid-range jumpers. He's making more layups this season, but he needs to be wide open to make most of his threes. I like him, but his contract has killed us the last two seasons.

[JoeTait75]

with Sacramento, Peja was sick. Hitting shots contested or wide open. As a pure shooter he's absolutely in the top 10.

I remember him missing the rim on a wide open conference-winning shot.

[mogrovejo]

You guys are misremembering.

Peja was never that good hitting contested shots, even in Sacramento.

He was spectacular hitting the open/lightly contested shot.

Eddie House, for example, was the opposite: he'd hit wide open/open/contested/heavily contested shots at a similar rate.

[BadOdor]

Sasha Vuyachic sons. there, I said it.

[cobbler]

You guys are misremembering.

Peja was never that good hitting contested shots, even in Sacramento.

He was spectacular hitting the open/lightly contested shot.

Eddie House, for example, was the opposite: he'd hit wide open/open/contested/heavily contested shots at a similar rate.

I can't comment on the difficulty of the shots but he neither hit them at the rate or fg%.

Peja career: 13.6 FGA .450 FG% 2.2 3PA .400 3P%

Eddie career: 7.2 FGA .411 FG% 2.9 3PA .391 3P%


Peja shot at twice the rate of Eddie for a higher %. Of course, Peja got more playing time so if you throw that into the rate equation, then they would be similar. But then you have to ask, would Eddies % go up pr down with the added time and additional shots?

[spursncowboys]

Miller and Ray Allen are in a league of their own as the two best shooters ever and Peja is a distant 3rd and Nash close behind him as the 4th best of all time. Players like Kerr who attempted less than 2 3's a game don't stack up to what Miller and Allen were able to do.

I would say that allen is in a league of his own. He had the best most pure shot, and follow through. I would put kobe at 2.

[Pelicans78]

Allan Houston is one of my favorite shooters on all time. He had a pure stroke. Beautiful form with his arms and legs.

[BRHornet45]

sons I guarantee you at the trade deadline next season Peja will be sent to the Lakers. expiring contract, he shoots his best games in the Staples Center, and the Lakers could use him off the bench. it will happen watch.

[endrity]

You guys have to remember that in 03-04 Peja was carrying the Kings to a great season before CWebb returned early to completely screw up the rhythm of the team. He still finished 3rd in the MVP voting for that year. You don't simply do that by hitting open jumpers. His back completely killed his career, and it has happened to other players before him, and it will happen to others later (look at T-Mac). But in his prime Peja was a lights out shooter. He also carried the Yugoslav team to the 02 World Champ title, by beating the US in the quarter finals.

[mogrovejo]

I can't comment on the difficulty of the shots but he neither hit them at the rate or fg%.

Peja career: 13.6 FGA .450 FG% 2.2 3PA .400 3P%

Eddie career: 7.2 FGA .411 FG% 2.9 3PA .391 3P%


Peja shot at twice the rate of Eddie for a higher %. Of course, Peja got more playing time so if you throw that into the rate equation, then they would be similar. But then you have to ask, would Eddies % go up pr down with the added time and additional shots?

There's a misunderstanding here.

My point is that Eddie House would hit shots of different levels of contentedness at the same rate - you don't gain a lot from contesting an Eddie House shot. Not saying he hits them at a similar rate to Peja.

[mogrovejo]

Predrag Stojakovic, Sacramento Kings
Shot Type - eFG%
Wide Open - 0.824
Open - 0.694
Contested - 0.464
Heavily Contested - 0.132

Eddie House, Sacramento Kings
Shot Type - eFG%
Wide Open - 0.429
Open - 0.515
Contested - 0.329
Heavily Contested - 0.417

[mogrovejo]

Peja was obviously great hitting contested shots, but it's his accuracy hitting open/wide-open shots that is truly amazing.

[cobbler]

There's a misunderstanding here.

My point is that Eddie House would hit shots of different levels of contentedness at the same rate - you don't gain a lot from contesting an Eddie House shot. Not saying he hits them at a similar rate to Peja.

gotcha... my bad

[poop]

reggie miller was the greatest all-round shooter ever and its not even close, hes made more 3's than anyone while shooting a % close to the spot-up specialists.
running sideways 3's, double-teamed 3's, fading away turn around heavily guarded 3's, HUGE clutch 3's, incredible contested game winners when everyone knew thats what was going to happen, pressur shots, taking over playoff games by drilling everything no matter what kind of shot...

Reggie Miller. by far. ray allen is up there as well. id put Dirt on the list also, one of the greatest shooters ever, but hes 7ft+ so his shots are far less contested than reggie's were.

[cobbler]

Predrag Stojakovic, Sacramento Kings
Shot Type - eFG%
Wide Open - 0.824
Open - 0.694
Contested - 0.464
Heavily Contested - 0.132

Eddie House, Sacramento Kings
Shot Type - eFG%
Wide Open - 0.429
Open - 0.515
Contested - 0.329
Heavily Contested - 0.417

And what is the criteria for the contested level?

[cobbler]

reggie miller was the greatest all-round shooter ever and its not even close, hes made more 3's than anyone while shooting a % close to the spot-up specialists.
running sideways 3's, double-teamed 3's, fading away turn around heavily guarded 3's, HUGE clutch 3's, incredible contested game winners when everyone knew thats what was going to happen, pressur shots, taking over playoff games by drilling everything no matter what kind of shot...

Reggie Miller. by far. ray allen is up there as well. id put Dirt on the list also, one of the greatest shooters ever, but hes 7ft+ so his shots are far less contested than reggie's were.

Except for that ONE big one that Prince contested him out of the playoffs with! :lol

[Goran Dragic]

House is just a streak shooter in every sense. He has nights where he could hit shots over centers, and he has nights where he misses no matter how open he is.

[poop]

Except for that ONE big one that Prince contested him out of the playoffs with! :lol

who cares, nobody hits them all, plus he was already on the decline big time.
anyone who watched him in the playoffs during the '90's, knows what im talking about. ive never seen ANYONE do what he did consistently

[poop]

seriously, House doesnt even belong in this conversation

[cobbler]

who cares, nobody hits them all, plus he was already on the decline big time.
anyone who watched him in the playoffs during the '90's, knows what im talking about. ive never seen ANYONE do what he did consistently

Just messing with ya. He's a UCLA boy. Can never hate on them.

[poop]

everyone knew when it was MILLER TIME !!!!

[cobbler]

seriously, House doesnt even belong in this conversation

Hollingers whole article is BS. His minimum requirements alone remove some of the greatest shooters of all time.

[ezau]

Miller was amazing during the 90s. You think he's not going to make it because of his awkward-looking shots, but he does. Peja meanwhile was an unbelievable shooter during his prime in Sacramento.

[mogrovejo]

And what is the criteria for the contested level?

Wide-open - no serious attempt to close-out, fastbreaks
Open - half hearted run out to the shooter, single hand raised, staying on ground
Contested - both hands high with the defender on the ground, shot-blocking hand raised to the shooters face
Heavily contested - defender rises up with the shooter w/ both hands outstretched, double-teams


House is just a streak shooter in every sense. He has nights where he could hit shots over centers, and he has nights where he misses no matter how open he is.

Yes, but his streakiness is not night-by-night; he goes hot/cold for longer periods - hits everything in a month, doesn't hit any in the following 2 weeks, etc.

[Goran Dragic]

Yes, but his streakiness is not night-by-night; he goes hot/cold for longer periods - hits everything in a month, doesn't hit any in the following 2 weeks, etc.


:lol that's def. true. Sums up his one season with the Suns perfectly.

[poop]

you know when your team is down a couple possessions with seconds left, and you think 'we can still win...they just have to run down and hit a 3..then steal it and hit another 3 real quick, etc..etc..' ....well, reggie miller ACTUALLY DID that,by himself in a playoff game :lol

[Goran Dragic]

And yeah, the argument about the rest doesn't matter. The indisputable thing that shows Hollingers' system is retarded is that Reggie is #1, Ray Allen is a close 2nd, and everyone is way behind them.

[cobbler]

Wide-open - no serious attempt to close-out, fastbreaks
Open - half hearted run out to the shooter, single hand raised, staying on ground
Contested - both hands high with the defender on the ground, shot-blocking hand raised to the shooters face
Heavily contested - defender rises up with the shooter w/ both hands outstretched, double-teams
.

Kinda subjective. Nothing for double and triple teams?

.... but clearly proves your point between House and Peja if taken correctly.

[mogrovejo]

Kinda subjective. Nothing for double and triple teams?

.... but clearly proves your point between House and Peja if taken correctly.

Charting games is always subjective to some extent. Even filling a boxscore can be, let alone evaluating the contestedness level of a shot.

Double-teams are there, in level 4. Triple teams are included in that one, as well.

Btw, I feel most fans grossly underrate the importance of contesting shots.

[Mr Bones]

If Nash is in fact one of the greatest shooters of all time (and I agree he is), it just proves once again that defense wins championships.

[L.I.T]

Eh...whether he tried to take into account by creating CSR I still think guys today have more space to get a shot off than players during the 90s. The rules of today create that space.

Which is why, for me, Miller >> Nash as a shooter. Miller was constantly getting bodied up while shooting.

Nash no doubt though is one of the more underrated shooters in NBA history; but the best ever? Not close.

[mogrovejo]

Miller was a better cutter than shooter. He was great getting looks. Cutting is an under-appreciated skill.

[monosylab1k]

I remember him missing the rim on a wide open conference-winning shot.

Does one shot make a career? All I can say in that regard is that at least Peja had a big shot to take. Mark Price had exactly dick.

[ambchang]

Actually he acknowledges those factors but it does seem like a simplistic stat:

"From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively."

How does simply adding up FT%, FG% and 3P% make it fair to the players from the 80s and 90s? Shouldn't each player have their FG% and 3P% adjusted to that particular year instead? FT% should always stay constant, as 15 feet is 15 feet.

[endrity]

Does one shot make a career? All I can say in that regard is that at least Peja had a big shot to take. Mark Price had exactly dick.

It's all about selective memory Mono, same as with Dirk. I remember Peja hitting countless clutch shots, in the NBA and the Euro and World Championships he led Yugoslavia to. He made an amazing 3pt plus the foul to tie the game against Minny in the 04 playoffs which was just sick. I think it's still around in youtube somewhere.

But when he missed that one jumper against the Lakers, that's all it took for people to label him with the stereotype of the "soft, choker, European", which is what everyone was always ready to label him as. Just as with Dirk, it doesn't matter how many clutch shots he's made, how many games he has won, how he has been one of the best 4th quarter scorers for years now in the league (I think he is second after Bron this year). As soon as he misses one, there it is, he is a choker again.

[313]

Bump?

[DAF86]

Finally, two young players on the Golden State Warriors have established a great chance of finishing their careers near the top of this list. Rookie Stephen Curry is at 1.770 thus far in his brief career, and should that number hold up, he'll finish his career in the top 10. Since players' shooting often improves dramatically in their second through fifth seasons, he could finish as one of the top-ranked players of all time.

:worthy: Godlinger

[DMC]

I'm not saying he could or that he will I'm just saying you haven't shown that he won't - spurrollinger21

[DAF86]

I'm not saying he could or that he will I'm just saying you haven't shown that he won't - spurrollinger21

He was literally saying that he could.