Pop's Centerpiece

[jjktkk]

I have to chuckle a little bit at some of you about bashing Pop on his comments in the recent "centerpiece" article. Pop's centerpiece coaching philosophy has proven to be very successful for a long time until this year. To have a wing player whose primary responsibility is to play lockdown defense, and who doesn't need plays called for him, sounds pretty good to me. Of course that coaching plan worked to perfection when Bruce Bowen played the part. But sadly, as we Spurs fans have watched this year, its painfully obvious that the Spurs do not have that lock down perimeter defender like Bruce. Besides missing Bowen's outstanding defensive tenacity, Bowen's trademark corner 3's were icing on the cake. Bowen was so versatile, he could guard anyone from Iverson to Lebron James. How many guys currently in the NBA could defend like Bruce? So Pop has tried to replace Bowen this year with Bogans, who can play physical defense, but is too slow , too small, to guard the Bryants, Anthonys, and Durants, of the NBA. But coming into this season, Bogans looked like the best option to play the role of Pop's "centerpiece". And right now Bogans is still the only option to play that role, but I have a feeling that Hairston is being groomed for that role and looks ready to take over that role soon in the very near future. So my fellow SpursTalk friends, and yes I mean you TJackass, oops, I mean TJastal, who crack on Pop and laugh at his "centerpiece" theory, I would love to hear your ideas on who, currently on this roster, can replace Bowen. What exactly can Pop do to fix his perimeter defense right now, not next year? Its way too easy to say Pop sucks, Pop can't coach, yada,yada,yada, so come and tell me what you would do with this current Spurs roster to fix their perimeter defense.

[Blackjack]

I think when Tim Duncan hangs them up they should just get whomever resembles him best to replace him and build the team with him as their centerpiece; there's only one way to skin a cat and you've just got to make due . . .

[dbestpro]

Hill is the new D centerpiece. Bowen this morning on the radio was talking about how proud he was of Hill and his improvement on D. (Bowen mentored Hill).

Bogans tries but he just does not have the lower mobility to play D like Bowen. He's not a centerpiece. He's more like a piece of crap.

[BigVee]

It's not just Bogans physical limitations. Do you think Bruce Bowen would have ignored Delonte West when a shot went up and let West tip the ball in the basket over him? I believe Bogans is fundamentally a poor defender who gets by with being physical, but as far as technique and attention to detail he is simply not very good; never mind the fact that on offense he makes Bowen look like Jerry West.

[ElNono]

So Bogans should play no matter what because he 'resembles' Bowen? Is that what we're arguing here? I mean, is Hairston not bald enough to be given a chance?
For what Bogans gives you out there, and if you don't want to go with Hairston, then I rather have Bonner playing SF...I'm dead serious... He's taller, more mobile and his offensive role would still be spot up shooter...

[TJastal]

I think when Tim Duncan hangs them up they should just get whomever resembles him best to replace him and build the team with him as their centerpiece; there's only one way to skin a cat and you've just got to make due . . .

:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

-It's the actual fact that Pop said that Bogans is the "centerpiece" to our defense that bothers me..I know what he means, but it's still annoying..with our original core still on the team, it's funny that Bogans can be referred to as the "centerpiece" of anything..

-The defense is worse with Bogans on the floor and he has by the worst +/- on the entire team..I don't understand how somebody can be a "centerpiece" when the D is worse with him on the floor..

-Bogans wasn't the best option coming in..the guy came into the season in decline, no other team wanted him, and he didn't even have a major role on a horrible Bucks team last season..he had one of the worst preseasons imaginable, yet he still got the job..

Hairston severely outplayed him in preseason and they even gave the guy a guaranteed contract, despite already having 14 players on the roster and knowing that he wouldn't even get a chance to play this year(since they instantly put him on the IL)..

-There isn't anybody that can replace Bowen, we'll probably never find somebody that can replace him..

Hairston should have been given the job though, he earned it in preseason..he has the best combination of athleticism/strength on this current roster, and he's still young enough to learn and grow..

-I understand the idea of playing a "stopper", but if they didn't want to play Hairston, which they don't, then it would make more sense to just go with an offensive lineup..Bogans literally doesn't make the D better, again, he has the worst +/- on the team..the Spurs are better off with Manu, Jefferson or even Bonner at the 3 like Elnono said..

[TJastal]

I have to chuckle a little bit at some of you about bashing Pop on his comments in the recent "centerpiece" article. Pop's centerpiece coaching philosophy has proven to be very successful for a long time until this year. To have a wing player whose primary responsibility is to play lockdown defense, and who doesn't need plays called for him, sounds pretty good to me. Of course that coaching plan worked to perfection when Bruce Bowen played the part. But sadly, as we Spurs fans have watched this year, its painfully obvious that the Spurs do not have that lock down perimeter defender like Bruce. Besides missing Bowen's outstanding defensive tenacity, Bowen's trademark corner 3's were icing on the cake. Bowen was so versatile, he could guard anyone from Iverson to Lebron James. How many guys currently in the NBA could defend like Bruce? So Pop has tried to replace Bowen this year with Bogans, who can play physical defense, but is too slow , too small, to guard the Bryants, Anthonys, and Durants, of the NBA. But coming into this season, Bogans looked like the best option to play the role of Pop's "centerpiece". And right now Bogans is still the only option to play that role, but I have a feeling that Hairston is being groomed for that role and looks ready to take over that role soon in the very near future. So my fellow SpursTalk friends, and yes I mean you TJackass, oops, I mean TJastal, who crack on Pop and laugh at his "centerpiece" theory, I would love to hear your ideas on who, currently on this roster, can replace Bowen. What exactly can Pop do to fix his perimeter defense right now, not next year? Its way too easy to say Pop sucks, Pop can't coach, yada,yada,yada, so come and tell me what you would do with this current Spurs roster to fix their perimeter defense.

Well jjktkk, your asking what we can do now is akin to asking what we can do to fix the fire that is currently burning the building down. We can put the fire out but all that is left is going to be charred remains.

However, I'll try to answer your question. One positive thing he can still do he can simply play Hairston and forget the Bogans experiment. Hell, he's had that option all year long but still refuses to use it. Should have been Malik's job from the very first day of the season IMO, he earned it with this outstanding pre-season. Still have no idea why he signed Bogans, much less handed him the starting job after a dreadful pre-season.

Doesn't help now, but a trade for John Salmons could have been made at the deadline. I'm not buying the spurs tried and nobody wanted any of their assets. Hell, the celdics are thrilled with Finley and the bobcats are getting quality minutes from Ratliff ffs.

[NFGIII]

Bogans obviously can't do the job. He may have been touted as Bruce's replacement but that ain't gonna/didn't have a chance to/wouldn't ever happen. Here's the problem from my perspective: Pop's basic defensive scheme was to have the twin towers controlling the paint while using a perimeter stopper to lockdown the opponent's star player and funnel the ball towards the twin towers, using the baseline as another defender. With Sean and then Bruce along with Drob, Rasho and Nazr he was able to employ that plan. But the Spurs don't have a true 5 (I excluding TD in this) nor do they have a perimeter stopper. I always thought that the mark of a coach is to get the most out of his players and adjust to the capabilities of his team. I think Pop has been trying to do this, considering the amount of different lineups that have been trotted out, but hasn't been able to find the right package that maxs the talent and capabilities of this team. Frankly he just doesn't have the tools neccessary to play the type of BB he wants to. And the injuries haven't helped either.

Hopefully either Hill or Hairston will get that role next year since I firmly believe that Pop will stick with Bogans for the rest of this season and into the POs. I would tend to go with Hairston first due to his size and I like Hill at SG. But either one would be more preferable than Bogans.

[TJastal]

Bogans obviously can't do the job. He may have been touted as Bruce's replacement but that ain't gonna/didn't have a chance to/wouldn't ever happen. Here's the problem from my perspective: Pop's basic defensive scheme was to have the twin towers controlling the paint while using a perimeter stopper to lockdown the opponent's star player and funnel the ball towards the twin towers, using the baseline as another defender. With Sean and then Bruce along with Drob, Rasho and Nazr he was able to employ that plan. But the Spurs don't have a true 5 (I excluding TD in this) nor do they have a perimeter stopper. I always thought that the mark of a coach is to get the most out of his players and adjust to the capabilities of his team. I think Pop has been trying to do this, considering the amount of different lineups that have been trotted out, but hasn't been able to find the right package that maxs the talent and capabilities of this team. Frankly he just doesn't have the tools neccessary to play the type of BB he wants to. And the injuries haven't helped either.
Hopefully either Hill or Hairston will get that role next year since I firmly believe that Pop will stick with Bogans for the rest of this season and into the POs. I would tend to go with Hairston first due to his size and I like Hill at SG. But either one would be more preferable than Bogans.

Really insightful point here. Bogans would actually be decent at "funneling" guys into the shotblocking (he has decent footwork), but he'd still be a major liability against jumpshooters and also like you said the spurs have no shotblockers to pair with Timmy at all to make this scheme work since Pop gave away Ratliff for a pair of Tpark's piss stained underpants and he refuses to give Ian a chance to develop.

[poop]

hes too short, in height and wingspan.

guys just shoot right over the top of him.

like last game when that 'williams' scrub simply posted him up and scored FIVE CONSECUTIVE POSESSIONS right in the face of our 'centerpiece defensive stopper' :rollin

[in2deep]

Pop once again, fucking with fans' heads.

[ElNono]

Hopefully either Hill or Hairston will get that role next year since I firmly believe that Pop will stick with Bogans for the rest of this season and into the POs. I would tend to go with Hairston first due to his size and I like Hill at SG. But either one would be more preferable than Bogans.

What's actually scary is that Pop might be so sold on this centerpiece crap that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tend an extension offer to Bogans and 'lock him up' for another season or two. If what happened with Finley in the past is any indicator, then that scenario is certainly plausible.

[Johnny RIngo]

I mentioned this in the game thread last night. Of all players that get at least 20 minutes, Bogans is the second least efficient, beaten only by Trenton Hassel of the New Jersey Nets.

[TJastal]

What's actually scary is that Pop might be so sold on this centerpiece crap that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tend an extension offer to Bogans and 'lock him up' for another season or two. If what happened with Finley in the past is any indicator, then that scenario is certainly plausible.

Yup, not hard to imagine this at all. It's ver likely both Bogans & Bonner will be rewarded with nice contracts this summer and cement the spurs in mediocrity for the remainder of the Duncan era.

[jjktkk]

TJastal and HarlemHeat37, I agree with you both that Hairston deserves to play Pop's centerpiece, but you know Pop's penchant for playing veterans over young players. That said, I really do believe Hairston will replace Bogans next year. For Hairston right now is the time to continue to showcase his ability to play that centerpiece role. He probably won't play enough minutes for the remainder of this season to satify everyone, but better late than never right? Another reason I chose to write this thread is the perception from the Pop haters that its so frickin easy to replace the Bowens, Horry's, and other former Spurs from the championship years. If anything this current season should prove that just isn't so. Pop can definitely be scrutinized and critized for his coaching, but with this current Spurs roster, I do not see a coach out there that could do a better job IMO.

[TJastal]

TJastal and HarlemHeat37, I agree with you both that Hairston deserves to play Pop's centerpiece, but you know Pop's penchant for playing veterans over young players. That said, I really do believe Hairston will replace Bogans next year. For Hairston right now is the time to continue to showcase his ability to play that centerpiece role. He probably won't play enough minutes for the remainder of this season to satify everyone, but better late than never right? Another reason I chose to write this thread is the perception from the Pop haters that its so frickin easy to replace the Bowens, Horry's, and other former Spurs from the championship years. If anything this current season should prove that just isn't so. Pop can definitely be scrutinized and critized for his coaching, but with this current Spurs roster, I do not see a coach out there that could do a better job IMO.


I think when Tim Duncan hangs them up they should just get whomever resembles him best to replace him and build the team with him as their centerpiece; there's only one way to skin a cat and you've just got to make due . . .

I think there is a good lesson in Blackjack's quote. That Pop shouldn't be trying to "reinvent the wheel" and instead try to use the best players he has available to him and then mold the team's philosophy and game plan around their talents.

His obsession with "the way it was" has the spurs signing and playing scrubs like Keith Bogans and Matt Bonner in a futile attempt to turn them into Robert Horry and Bruce Bowens. Get it yet?

[jjktkk]

Yup, not hard to imagine this at all. It's ver likely both Bogans & Bonner will be rewarded with nice contracts this summer and cement the spurs in mediocrity for the remainder of the Duncan era.

I disagree. Bogans might be resigned for next year, but IMO that job is Hairstons to lose. I still don't get all of the Bonner hate. Booner's job is not to be the defensive stopper, but he does compete on the defensive end. He did a solid job on David West and Zack Randolph this past week. Thats all you can ask of him, because Bonner's role on this team is to be the 4 that can space the floor with his 3-point ability. When his shot is on, Bonner is an asset to the Spurs. When its not Pop benches him. Right now whose better than Bonner at the 4 spot. McDyess? Sometimes. Blair? Sometimes. Do I really need to ask about Mahimni? Ratliff? Ratliff can block shots and defend in spurts, but due to his age, and the fact Ratliff was as bad on offense as Bonner apparently is on defense, Ratliff wasn't a viable option. Plus thats history since Ratliff was traded. Could the Spurs use an upgrade at the 4 and 5 spots next year? well, duh right? Whose out there that the Spurs can realisticly get? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. The Spurs do need to upgrade the 4 and 5 spots, but even if they do, Bonner can still be an asset to the Spurs IMO.

[jjktkk]

I think there is a good lesson in Blackjack's quote. That Pop shouldn't be trying to "reinvent the wheel" and instead try to use the best players he has available to him and then mold the team's philosophy and game plan around their talents.

His obsession with "the way it was" has the spurs signing and playing scrubs like Keith Bogans and Matt Bonner in a futile attempt to turn them into Robert Horry and Bruce Bowens. Get it yet?

Ah nope, not yet. Tell me who are the best players that Pop needs to use?

[Ocotillo]

What's actually scary is that Pop might be so sold on this centerpiece crap that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tend an extension offer to Bogans and 'lock him up' for another season or two. If what happened with Finley in the past is any indicator, then that scenario is certainly plausible.

:hang

[NFGIII]

What's actually scary is that Pop might be so sold on this centerpiece crap that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tend an extension offer to Bogans and 'lock him up' for another season or two. If what happened with Finley in the past is any indicator, then that scenario is certainly plausible.


I thought about that point and almost included it but hesistated, not wanting to really believe that Finley 2.0 could happen. But you are right about the possibility and that is scary. Makes me think about a post from another thread - can't remember which one - stating that Pop has no checks and balances so he can do pretty much what he wants without much consequence. If Pop is truly sold on Bogans then we had better get ready for an extension this summer and the majority of ST posters will have been :nutkick:

[TD 21]

-It's the actual fact that Pop said that Bogans is the "centerpiece" to our defense that bothers me..I know what he means, but it's still annoying..with our original core still on the team, it's funny that Bogans can be referred to as the "centerpiece" of anything..

-The defense is worse with Bogans on the floor and he has by the worst +/- on the entire team..I don't understand how somebody can be a "centerpiece" when the D is worse with him on the floor..

-Bogans wasn't the best option coming in..the guy came into the season in decline, no other team wanted him, and he didn't even have a major role on a horrible Bucks team last season..he had one of the worst preseasons imaginable, yet he still got the job..

Hairston severely outplayed him in preseason and they even gave the guy a guaranteed contract, despite already having 14 players on the roster and knowing that he wouldn't even get a chance to play this year(since they instantly put him on the IL)..

-There isn't anybody that can replace Bowen, we'll probably never find somebody that can replace him..

Hairston should have been given the job though, he earned it in preseason..he has the best combination of athleticism/strength on this current roster, and he's still young enough to learn and grow..

-I understand the idea of playing a "stopper", but if they didn't want to play Hairston, which they don't, then it would make more sense to just go with an offensive lineup..Bogans literally doesn't make the D better, again, he has the worst +/- on the team..the Spurs are better off with Manu, Jefferson or even Bonner at the 3 like Elnono said..

Unfortunately, I don't see the Spurs acquiring a true stopper in the off season (unless Bell can still successfully fill that role).

Batum is ideally the type of wing defender they need, but the Trail Blazers aren't giving up for anything short of a no brainer and the Spurs don't have that to offer.

Battier is truly a Spur in every sense of the word, but again, the Spurs don't have what it takes to acquire him.

Prince is available and I wouldn't say for sure he's in decline, but he's got a ton of mileage for someone 29-30, has a bad back and would be risky to take on. His contract expires in '11 though, but the Pistons are expected to use him as a piece to acquire a credible big man.

Afflalo is not necessarily the type the Spurs need and there'd be no reason for him to be available, but the Nuggets need another credible big man if they're to take down the Lakers and they were rumored interest in McDyess at the trade deadline. Maybe they bite (though I doubt they would), if the Spurs agree to take Balkman or if a third team got involved in order to help facilitate the trade and make it cap compliant.

There's bargain basket types like Evans, Wright and the like and then there's Bell. Old, almost certainly in decline, undersized and not athletic and yet he probably represents the Spurs best hope at upgrading this spot. If not, I'm afraid Bogans may be re-signed.

What the Spurs need in a wing stopper is someone who can double as a 40+% 3-point shooter because if they bring in Splitter and can't move McDyess, then that likely means Bonner is gone. Mason is guaranteed to be gone and even with those two, this isn't a very good outside shooting team. I expect these perimeter players to return: Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Jefferson and Hairston. The first four are guaranteed to be in the rotation and not one is a knockdown shooter. Ginobili is starting to get back to being the shooter he was before last season and Hill is certainly much improved in this area, but the Spurs need a 40+% guy who can double as their stopper because with the emergence for Hill, there's only going to be five perimeter spots in the rotation available (I suspect Hairston will receive spot minutes).

[HarlemHeat37]

It's a confusing situation..

They signed Hairston with a full roster..they kept him on the IL and sent him down to the D-league, so they knew he wasn't going to play for the Spurs this season..they guaranteed his contract in December, even though he hadn't played any real minutes for the Spurs this season..

Sean Elliott has said that they're high on him and want to develop him, but they haven't really shown this..

So it's really a puzzling situation as to what will happen with Bogans-Hairston next ear..it's not like Hairston outplaying him will win him the role, he already clearly did that in this year's preseason/training camp..

Personally, I hope they groom Hairston as a stopper at the 2 and occasionally at the 3, and then draft a longer SF to guard the bigger players and guard tweener PFs..

[The Truth #6]

Since we're not doing anything in the playoffs this year, I'd like to see the team experiment with a unit of Manu, Malik, Jefferson, Blair, and Ian for stretches to see what could happen.

Whimsical Pop might surpise us in how he uses Malik, such as pulling him off the bench cold for a key stop or playing him at the 4. Basically, who knows what's going to happen?

[HarlemHeat37]

What the Spurs need in a wing stopper is someone who can double as a 40+% 3-point shooter because if they bring in Splitter and can't move McDyess, then that likely means Bonner is gone. Mason is guaranteed to be gone and even with those two, this isn't a very good outside shooting team. I expect these perimeter players to return: Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Jefferson and Hairston. The first four are guaranteed to be in the rotation and not one is a knockdown shooter. Ginobili is starting to get back to being the shooter he was before last season and Hill is certainly much improved in this area, but the Spurs need a 40+% guy who can double as their stopper because with the emergence for Hill, there's only going to be five perimeter spots in the rotation available (I suspect Hairston will receive spot minutes).

The draft is the only place I would look TBH..the Spurs should be grooming players in the meantime, I don't really want to see them acquire 30+ year olds for next season..

I don't believe this team can contend next year if Jefferson is still on the roster though IMO, so I hope he's moved for multiple pieces, hopefully McDyess can join him too(assuming Splitter joins the team)..

The knockdown shooter part will definitely be important, but like you said, it's tough to find guys like that..

[TD 21]

The draft is the only place I would look TBH..the Spurs should be grooming players in the meantime, I don't really want to see them acquire 30+ year olds for next season..

I don't believe this team can contend next year if Jefferson is still on the roster though IMO, so I hope he's moved for multiple pieces, hopefully McDyess can join him too(assuming Splitter joins the team)..

The knockdown shooter part will definitely be important, but like you said, it's tough to find guys like that..

Depends on how you view next season. I view it as taking one last run with the big three intact (like I said in another thread, after that and the seemingly inevitable lockout, the Spurs will be in re-building mode whether they want to be or not, so why not take one last run while these three are still a viable core?), so with that in mind, if it's someone over 30, willing to take a 1 year contract (maybe throw in a mutual option for a second year, just to get them to commit) that can help the team, then I'd do it. Out of available realistic options, Bell is probably the best the Spurs can do, even though he's not ideal.

McDyess, because he's a big, might be movable in the off season, but I don't see how the Spurs can move Jefferson until the '11 trade deadline.

[dbestpro]

Kevin Durant puts Mbah a Moute’s defense right there with Artest’s.

http://www.emptythebench.com/2010/02/04/defense-oriented-starters-nba/

[spursrocks]

bogans is a piece of shit!
bogans sucks, too short in height and wingspan.

[ElNono]

TJastal and HarlemHeat37, I agree with you both that Hairston deserves to play Pop's centerpiece, but you know Pop's penchant for playing veterans over young players. That said, I really do believe Hairston will replace Bogans next year. For Hairston right now is the time to continue to showcase his ability to play that centerpiece role. He probably won't play enough minutes for the remainder of this season to satify everyone, but better late than never right? Another reason I chose to write this thread is the perception from the Pop haters that its so frickin easy to replace the Bowens, Horry's, and other former Spurs from the championship years. If anything this current season should prove that just isn't so. Pop can definitely be scrutinized and critized for his coaching, but with this current Spurs roster, I do not see a coach out there that could do a better job IMO.

I don't see a better coach either. That doesn't mean he's immune from making erroneous decisions here and there. Furthermore, that you mention 'this current Spurs roster' you make it sound like he's stuck coaching whatever the FO gave him, but the reality is that as President of Basketball Operations he's as responsible as RC for the makeup of this roster, both on the positive and the negative aspects of it.

[it's me]

bogans is a piece of shit!
bogans sucks, too short in height and wingspan.

no he's not...... he is the "Centershit"