Canadian faces bankruptcy to receive life-saving...

[Yonivore]

...medical care in America because a Canadian death panel dithered over his case until it was too late and then, because they dithered, decided he was no longer surgery-worth.

Sick man faces bankruptcy — or death (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mark_bonokoski/2010/03/06/13138311.html)


uffering from brain cancer, Kent Pankow was literally forced to go to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. for lifesaving surgery — at a cost to family and friends of $106,000 — after the health-care system in Alberta left him hanging in bureaucratic limbo for 16 crucial days, his tumour meanwhile migrating to an unreachable part of the brain, while it dithered over his case file, ultimately deciding he was not surgery worthy.
Welcome to Obamacare.

[exstatic]

See, the fallacy in these "examples" is that it makes it seem like people get what they need under the robber-baron care system we have now. If I'm going to get screwed, I'd prefer it to be at low cost. People are denied shit every day by Humana and United Health Care. Where's that story? I'll tell you. If they cited every example, there would be no other news.

[ChumpDumper]

Gee Yoni, maybe you can show me the single payer provisions of this current health care bill?

Give us a link.

[Yonivore]

See, the fallacy in these "examples" is that it makes it seem like people get what they need under the robber-baron care system we have now. If I'm going to get screwed, I'd prefer it to be at low cost. People are denied shit every day by Humana and United Health Care. Where's that story? I'll tell you. If they cited every example, there would be no other news.
This guy didn't have Humana or United Health Care and he received treatment. That's the story. He had the option to go into debt to save his own life...and, he took it.

Under Obamacare (just like under Canada's system) you won't have that option...if the Government deems you un-surgery-worthy, you're screwed unless there's a private Clinic in Mexico or Costa Rica that will treat you because, unfortunately, Mayo will be out of business.

[ChumpDumper]

No link yet?

[boutons_deux]

"Under Obamacare (just like under Canada's system) you won't have that option"

You Lie, pussy eater, You Lie, You Lie, you have nothing but lies.

[exstatic]

Mayo goes out of business. Right. You realize that Anheiser Busch stayed in business for 13 years during prohibition. Their business was actually outlawed. I'm tired of whiney companies that think they have a right to survive. Guess what. They don't. You adapt or you die. The weak ones will be weeded out. I'm guessing Mayo won't be one of those.

[Yonivore]

Mayo goes out of business. Right. You realize that Anheiser Busch stayed in business for 13 years during prohibition. Their business was actually outlawed. I'm tired of whiney companies that think they have a right to survive. Guess what. They don't. You adapt or you die. The weak ones will be weeded out. I'm guessing Mayo won't be one of those.
If the Government had taken over the brewing and distilling business and required all citizens to buy their booze from Uncle Sam, during prohibition, Anhauser Busch would have gone out of business.

There's your difference...

Thanks for playing.

[Duff McCartney]

Funny you mention Costa Rica because they have socialized medicine as well. Just like Canada.

And Yoni spare me your attacks on socialized medicine because for everyone person like this one, there's hundreds that decide not to take procedures because they can't afford them.

This guy would rather go into debt than die, well trust me for many Americans or anyone, 100K medical bills are nothing to sneeze at. We'll see if he ever pays for that procedure, or he dies before even half gets paid.

[Winehole23]

...

[Yonivore]

Funny you mention Costa Rica because they have socialized medicine as well. Just like Canada.
But, like Hawaii -- and, unlike Canada and Obamacare -- private commercial health care is still allowed.


And Yoni spare me your attacks on socialized medicine because for everyone person like this one, there's hundreds that decide not to take procedures because they can't afford them.
That's a choice.

You act as though health care doesn't cost real money.


This guy would rather go into debt than die, well trust me for many Americans or anyone, 100K medical bills are nothing to sneeze at. We'll see if he ever pays for that procedure, or he dies before even half gets paid.
Your point?

[ChumpDumper]

But, like Hawaii -- and, unlike Canada and Obamacare -- private commercial health care is still allowed.Really? Where is private commercial health care outlawed in this bill?

Be specific.

[ElNono]

But, like Hawaii -- and, unlike Canada and Obamacare -- private commercial health care is still allowed.

I thought there was no public option in the current bill? Furthermore, the only option is forced private commercial health care?

[Yonivore]

I thought there was no public option in the current bill? Furthermore, the only option is forced private commercial health care?
The fines for companies that do not provide insurance to employees are less than the cost of providing said insurance. The fines for individuals not purchasing insurance, also, are less than the annual cost of premiums.

With the provision that insurance companies cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, who is going to buy insurance before it is needed? I'm not and an employer would be stupid to continue providing insurance when it would be cheaper to pay the fine and tell the employee to buy it themselves.

How long will the commercial insurance industry survive in that climate?

Then, ask yourself, what is the solution? That's right -- THE PUBLIC OPTION.

Oh, and the government will control the costs of your "forced private commercial health care," making it no longer profitable for them. The best doctors and providers will migrate to an environment where they can earn what their services demand...say, Costa Rica.

[ChumpDumper]

The fines for companies that do not provide insurance to employees are less than the cost of providing said insurance. The fines for individuals not purchasing insurance, also, are less than the annual cost of premiums.

With the provision that insurance companies cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, who is going to buy insurance before it is needed? I'm not and an employer would be stupid to continue providing insurance when it would be cheaper to pay the fine and tell the employee to buy it themselves.

How long will the commercial insurance industry survive in that climate?

Then, ask yourself, what is the solution? That's right -- THE PUBLIC OPTION.A real mandate could survive quite easily.

[ElNono]

The fines for companies that do not provide insurance to employees are less than the cost of providing said insurance. The fines for individuals not purchasing insurance, also, are less than the annual cost of premiums.

With the provision that insurance companies cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, who is going to buy insurance before it is needed? I'm not and an employer would be stupid to continue providing insurance when it would be cheaper to pay the fine and tell the employee to buy it themselves.

How long will the commercial insurance industry survive in that climate?

Then, ask yourself, what is the solution? That's right -- THE PUBLIC OPTION.

Not necessarily. It might just as well move the system back towards paying out of pocket. Isn't that what some of your conservative fellows want in the first place? Manage your own medical expenses?
As you know, there just isn't enough votes for a public option right now. I don't see that changing. I would argue that a public option would be even more unlikely should the GOP gain seats in the next election.


Oh, and the government will control the costs of your "forced private commercial health care," making it no longer profitable for them. The best doctors and providers will migrate to an environment where they can earn what their services demand...say, Costa Rica.

Your entire premise on how this will play out is entirely in your imagination.
If this proposed system fails, then we'll move to something else. Laws are not static. They get superseded all the time with new laws. Power changes.
I don't like the current proposition any more than you do, but your imaginary story is not scaring anyone here. At least not me.

[DMX7]

Oh, and the government will control the costs of your "forced private commercial health care," making it no longer profitable for them.

:lmao

[Yonivore]

:lmao
I don't think it's funny.

[DMX7]

I don't think it's funny.

I know, that's because you're "Reactionary".

[LnGrrrR]

...medical care in America because a Canadian death panel dithered over his case until it was too late and then, because they dithered, decided he was no longer surgery-worth.

Sick man faces bankruptcy — or death (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mark_bonokoski/2010/03/06/13138311.html)


Welcome to Obamacare.

This is the STUPIDEST F'ING LOGIC/ARGUMENT ever.

Oh no! A man in Canada has to come over here to get cured!

Whereas, if the same poor American got sick... he wouldn't even have the option to be reviewed.

Right now, the poor person dying in America doesn't have ANY options.

[LnGrrrR]

This guy didn't have Humana or United Health Care and he received treatment. That's the story. He had the option to go into debt to save his own life...and, he took it.

Under Obamacare (just like under Canada's system) you won't have that option...if the Government deems you un-surgery-worthy, you're screwed unless there's a private Clinic in Mexico or Costa Rica that will treat you because, unfortunately, Mayo will be out of business.

This is the SECOND MOST F'ING STUPID LOGIC/ARGUMENT.

I thought conservatives were champions of the free market?

So, if the free market cures all ills, and there are rich people, and they're dissatisfied with the healthcare marketplace... guess what?

That means THERE WILL BE F'ING RICH PEOPLE WHO WANT BETTER HEALTHCARE. RICH PEOPLE WILL WANT TO PAY LOTS OF MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTHCARE, CREATING A MARKET.

Yeesh.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Not necessarily. It might just as well move the system back towards paying out of pocket. Isn't that what some of your conservative fellows want in the first place? Manage your own medical expenses?
As you know, there just isn't enough votes for a public option right now. I don't see that changing. I would argue that a public option would be even more unlikely should the GOP gain seats in the next election.



Your entire premise on how this will play out is entirely in your imagination.
If this proposed system fails, then we'll move to something else. Laws are not static. They get superseded all the time with new laws. Power changes.
I don't like the current proposition any more than you do, but your imaginary story is not scaring anyone here. At least not me.





our yoni has always had an active imagination...

[Drachen]

...medical care in America because a Canadian death panel dithered over his case until it was too late and then, because they dithered, decided he was no longer surgery-worth.

Sick man faces bankruptcy — or death (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mark_bonokoski/2010/03/06/13138311.html)


Welcome to Obamacare.

Can you not find a similar situation where an American insurance company decided not to pay for someone's care and they died?

This is akin to you posting an article that says something to the effect of:

"A vancouver man had the sniffles and went to see his doctor, then was surprised to find out that he had a $20 copay for his visit."

then commenting: "welcome to Obamacare"

[George Gervin's Afro]

Can you not find a similar situation where an American insurance company decided not to pay for someone's care and they died?

This is akin to you posting an article that says something to the effect of:

"A vancouver man had the sniffles and went to see his doctor, then was surprised to find out that he had a $20 copay for his visit."

then commenting: "welcome to Obamacare"

What Yoni doesn't get is that you could easily replace Canada with the United States in the headline and an insurance company with the govt and it would be the same scenerio. People are rejected treatment in America and somethimes they take drastic measures to save their lives. Some sell their homes to pay for life saving procedures but Yoni's ok with that. But hey, healthcare is a privilege and not a right in Yoni's world.

[Drachen]

What Yoni doesn't get is that you could easily replace Canada with the United States in the headline and an insurance company with the govt and it would be the same scenerio. People are rejected treatment in America and somethimes they take drastic measures to save their lives. Some sell their homes to pay for life saving procedures but Yoni's ok with that. But hey, healthcare is a privilege and not a right in Yoni's world.

I completely agree with you on the replacement of names. The funny thing is someone trying to make such an arguement when there is so much about the bill that is legitimately bad. I support public health insurance, and the reform thereof, but the only way I could see myself supporting this bill is if I knew that it would be just one step on a very short path to a public option system.

[boutons_deux]

pussyeater's just pulling our chains. He knows he's lying and that US health care is an unmitigated, gouging disaster compared to health care in intelligent, adult countries who know how to face and fix their problems.

[EmptyMan]

Enjoy your health care rationing, suckers.

[boutons_deux]

It's-a-privilege-not-a-right health care is already rationed, or 40M Americans wouldn't get their health care from ERs.

[nkdlunch]

it is already rationed. Only for the rich

[Drachen]

Enjoy your health care rationing, suckers.

We are currently "enjoying" it, thank you very much. I wonder if Obamacare will have rationing like our current system.

[LnGrrrR]

Enjoy your health care rationing, suckers.

I'm sure all those people without health care of any kind are weeping. :rolleyes

[Yonivore]

This is the STUPIDEST F'ING LOGIC/ARGUMENT ever.

Oh no! A man in Canada has to come over here to get cured!

Whereas, if the same poor American got sick... he wouldn't even have the option to be reviewed.

Right now, the poor person dying in America doesn't have ANY options.
You're wrong. The American would have the same option of walking into the Mayo clinic and incurring debt to be cured.

That is, until our government -- through Obamacare -- prohibits the medical profession from providing medical care to anyone without insurance - either private (soon to be non-existent) or government (soon to be THE single-payer in the U.S.)

[ChumpDumper]

You're wrong. The American would have the same option of walking into the Mayo clinic and incurring debt to be cured.

That is, until our government -- through Obamacare -- prohibits the medical profession from providing medical care to anyone without insurance - either private (soon to be non-existent) or government (soon to be THE single-payer in the U.S.)More made up bullshit.

[Yonivore]

Can you not find a similar situation where an American insurance company decided not to pay for someone's care and they died?

This is akin to you posting an article that says something to the effect of:

"A vancouver man had the sniffles and went to see his doctor, then was surprised to find out that he had a $20 copay for his visit."

then commenting: "welcome to Obamacare"
You are confusion the difference between health care with health insurance.

The Canadian incurred debt for care. He doesn't have that option in Canada, because of nationalized medicine and their requisite rationing (death) panels, and that's why he came here. If Obamacare passes, he won't have that option here and neither will Americans.

[ElNono]

That is, until our government -- through Obamacare -- prohibits the medical profession from providing medical care to anyone without insurance - either private (soon to be non-existent) or government (soon to be THE single-payer in the U.S.)

Where's that on the current proposal... I must have missed it. Care to quote the relevant parts?

[Yonivore]

What Yoni doesn't get is that you could easily replace Canada with the United States in the headline and an insurance company with the govt and it would be the same scenerio. People are rejected treatment in America and somethimes they take drastic measures to save their lives. Some sell their homes to pay for life saving procedures but Yoni's ok with that. But hey, healthcare is a privilege and not a right in Yoni's world.
Except that Insurance Companies don't have the power to withhold care - only to withhold financial coverage.

Governments can withhold both...and DO.

[ElNono]

Except that Insurance Companies don't have the power to withhold care - only to withhold financial coverage.

If you can't afford it, then it's invariably the same thing.

[LnGrrrR]

You're wrong. The American would have the same option of walking into the Mayo clinic and incurring debt to be cured.

That is, until our government -- through Obamacare -- prohibits the medical profession from providing medical care to anyone without insurance - either private (soon to be non-existent) or government (soon to be THE single-payer in the U.S.)

If it's not life-threatening, then Mayo has the right to decline services. Right?

Could you point out where in a bill it will specifically prohibit such?

[Yonivore]

Where's that on the current proposal... I must have missed it. Care to quote the relevant parts?
There are penalties for not having insurance...for employers that don't provided insurance and for individuals that don't purchase it. The penalties are intentionally structured to be less than the normal cost of both. This will create an environment that will cause employers and individuals to skip insurance in favor of paying the penalties.

Why? Because Obamacare also forces insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. So. Why pay premiums when you can pay penalties and then, when you get sick, start paying the premiums for the insurance companies are forced, by law, to now provide you?

The commercial insurance industry cannot survive this model. That will leave government provided single-payer coverage with all the rationing and death panels now enjoyed by Canada, Great Britain, etc...

[Yonivore]

If you can't afford it, then it's invariably the same thing.
You're missing the point.

If it were the same thing, there would have been a "Mayo Clinic" for the Canadian to go to.

[ElNono]

You're missing the point.

If it were the same thing, there would have been a "Mayo Clinic" for the Canadian to go to.

No, you're missing the point. If he couldn't collect $100,000+, then there would not have been a "Mayo Clinic" either.

[LnGrrrR]

There are penalties for not having insurance...for employers that don't provided insurance and for individuals that don't purchase it. The penalties are intentionally structured to be less than the normal cost of both. This will create an environment that will cause employers and individuals to skip insurance in favor of paying the penalties.

Why? Because Obamacare also forces insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. So. Why pay premiums when you can pay penalties and then, when you get sick, start paying the premiums for the insurance companies are forced, by law, to now provide you?

The commercial insurance industry cannot survive this model. That will leave government provided single-payer coverage with all the rationing and death panels now enjoyed by Canada, Great Britain, etc...

Right. So, in other words, it doesn't say anywhere in the bill that private insurers won't be able to treat people without health insurance, but this is just some future vision you saw in a crystal ball.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ElNono]

There are penalties for not having insurance...for employers that don't provided insurance and for individuals that don't purchase it. The penalties are intentionally structured to be less than the normal cost of both. This will create an environment that will cause employers and individuals to skip insurance in favor of paying the penalties.

I don't see how that prevents doctors from providing care if patients don't have insurance... which was your claim.


Why? Because Obamacare also forces insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. So. Why pay premiums when you can pay penalties and then, when you get sick, start paying the premiums for the insurance companies are forced, by law, to now provide you?

Because insurance companies can price premiums accordingly. That they have to sign you up doesn't mean that they need to charge everyone the same. They can easily give you discounted rates for being with them for x amount of time, or having been healthy for x amount of time. Rewarding customer loyalty and behavior with perks has been done throughput the insurance industry for years.


The commercial insurance industry cannot survive this model. That will leave government provided single-payer coverage with all the rationing and death panels now enjoyed by Canada, Great Britain, etc...

Sure it can survive that model. It will merely have to adapt their current model to a different one. The rest is just your imagination.


And BTW, I'm still waiting for the quotes on the relevant parts of the current legislation where it prevents doctors from providing care if patients don't have insurance... :rolleyes

[clambake]

why doesn't yoni link the blog to his followup?

[Yonivore]

Right. So, in other words, it doesn't say anywhere in the bill that private insurers won't be able to treat people without health insurance, but this is just some future vision you saw in a crystal ball.

Thanks for the clarification.
Insurers don't treat people.

[Yonivore]

No, you're missing the point. If he couldn't collect $100,000+, then there would not have been a "Mayo Clinic" either.
Not true, he incurred the debt...the Mayo did not require him to pay up front.

[boutons_deux]

Yoni Lies: health care reform doesn't block any doctor from treating any patient.


Yoni and His Girlfriend Pitbull Bitch Lie: There are no government death panels.


For-profit health insurers block doctors by refusing, partially or completely, a doctor's preferred treatment for a health insurer's client.

Many doctors refuse to treat Medicare/Medicaid patients because the allowed reimbursement is insufficient, in their 5-star gold-plated opinion.

[DarrinS]

Liberals usually like to site the Canadian health care system as the model.


Until they realize Canadians don't like it.


3EPd2i4Jshs

[DarrinS]

it is already rationed. Only for the rich


Wow. 85% of all Americans are rich!

[ChumpDumper]

Liberals usually like to site the Canadian health care system as the model.


Until they realize Canadians don't like it.Disingenuous liars pretend that the single payer system is the only other option available and also pretend that single payer is included in this current health care bill.

[DarrinS]

Disingenuous liars pretend that the single payer system is the only other option available and also pretend that single payer is included in this current health care bill.


According to Pelosi, they need to pass that steaming turd, so we can all find out what's in it.


Evidently, there's something in it for everyone -- just not the middle class. They just pick up the tab.

[ChumpDumper]

According to Pelosi, they need to pass that steaming turd, so we can all find out what's in it.

Evidently, there's something in it for everyone -- just not the middle class. They just pick up the tab.You certainly don't know what's in it now. That's why you keep bringing up Canada.

[DarrinS]

You certainly don't know what's in it now. That's why you keep bringing up Canada.



It's probably nothing like the Canadian system.

[ChumpDumper]

It's probably nothing like the Canadian system.So why do you and Yoni keep acting like it is?

[jack sommerset]

Wow. 85% of all Americans are rich!

lol....That's what I was thinking. Then throw in those who just don't want it. This health care take over is fucking CRAZY!

[ElNono]

Not true, he incurred the debt...the Mayo did not require him to pay up front.

Really? And why what you posted originally reads:

— at a cost to family and friends of $106,000 —

[ChumpDumper]

It's probably nothing like the Canadian system.True, it's more like the Hawaiian system that Rush loved so much.

[ElNono]

Until they realize Canadians don't like it.

Care to back this up?

Official numbers (http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=7) put patient satisfaction at 85%...

And the polls I've seen from private pollsters point towards about the same numbers...

[boutons_deux]

"This health care take over"

You Lie

[Yonivore]

Thankfully, this may be moot.

Ruling Kills an Option for Moving Health Bill (http://cdn.rollcall.com/media/44110-1.html)

So, basically, as I understand it; the President will have to sign the current legislation into law before it can undergo reconciliation...and that ain't gonna happen unless they catch about 15 Democrats with dead girls or live boys in the next few days.

And, even those could go "Massa" on them.

[jacobdrj]

This is the SECOND MOST F'ING STUPID LOGIC/ARGUMENT.

I thought conservatives were champions of the free market?

So, if the free market cures all ills, and there are rich people, and they're dissatisfied with the healthcare marketplace... guess what?

That means THERE WILL BE F'ING RICH PEOPLE WHO WANT BETTER HEALTHCARE. RICH PEOPLE WILL WANT TO PAY LOTS OF MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTHCARE, CREATING A MARKET.

Yeesh.
qft

I liken this scenario to the public school system. If it is really so bad, you can choose to go bankrupt (or at least bite the proverbial bullet) and get a private school education. Everyone pays, but you have the option. My parents decided, despite their poverty, and despite there being a functional public school system in my area, to pay 'double' to send me and my siblings to private school.

Even IF the public school system in America is a mess (and here in my new home of Detroit Proper it is nowhere else worse) it is still a viable option. It is hard, but available. That is an ideal system. And unlike school, nobody will force you to attend your free medical exam. For every hypochondriac there is probably a health pussy who is too scared to go to the doctor.

[ElNono]

Thankfully, this may be moot.

Ruling Kills an Option for Moving Health Bill (http://cdn.rollcall.com/media/44110-1.html)

So, basically, as I understand it; the President will have to sign the current legislation into law before it can undergo reconciliation...and that ain't gonna happen unless they catch about 15 Democrats with dead girls or live boys in the next few days.

And, even those could go "Massa" on them.

The Senate Parliamentarian can be overruled by the Vice President. So if Joe gives the :tu they simply can go ahead and do it.

[LnGrrrR]

Insurers don't treat people.

Slip of the tongue. Point out where in the bill it specifically outlaws private insurers OR health care?

[Yonivore]

Slip of the tongue. Point out where in the bill it specifically outlaws private insurers OR health care?
As Speaker Pelosi has so eloquently pointed out, they need to pass it before we'll know what's in it.

But, if it's the Senate Bill that passed before Christmas this is eventually signed into law, There are the penalties for non-insurance that will drive people away from private to government insurance and there are price controls that will drive medical professionals out of the business.

Use your logic, LnGrrrR. If there is an individual mandate for insurance -- which there is, who is left to seek private health care? The logical outcome is that all medical professionals are part of the "plan" and unable to provide care outside the system.

If that's not the case, Obamacare won't work. Better yet, if that's the case, why not just expand Medicare and insure the uninsured now? No, they have to drive everyone off private insurance and everyone out of private medical care for their scheme to work.

I can't believe you think this legislation is on the up and up with all the shenanigans they're pulling to get it into law.

This "Slaughter" tactic, if they employ it, is going to seal the Democrats' fate in November.

[Yonivore]

http://www.investors.com/image/RAMclr031210_FULL.jpg.cms
It's starting to look like Democrats have signed on to some kind of "Suicide Pact" to pass Obamacare.

Approval for the plan continues to drop.

Approval for the Congress (and the leadership in particular) is reaching new lows.

Approval for Obama, himself, is seeing new lows, as well.

But, in spite of it all, they continue to press forward with the insanity.

[ChumpDumper]

Very tasteful cartoon, Yoni. I'm sure the families and comrades of US servicemen killed by suicide bombers have a newfound respect for you -- to say nothing of the Muslim peoples about whom you profess to care so much.

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://www.investors.com/image/RAMclr031210_FULL.jpg.cms
It's starting to look like Democrats have signed on to some kind of "Suicide Pact" to pass Obamacare.

Approval for the plan continues to drop.

Approval for the Congress (and the leadership in particular) is reaching new lows.

Approval for Obama, himself, is seeing new lows, as well.

But, in spite of it all, they continue to press forward with the insanity.




Poll: More disapprove of Bush than any other presidentStory Highlights
President Bush's disapproval rating hits all-time high in polling

More than 70 percent disapprove in CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll

Survey indicates support for Iraq war has never been lower

Low approval numbers come five years after "Mission Accomplished" moment


Read CHART
By Paul Steinhauser
CNN Deputy Political Director

WASHINGTON DC (CNN) -- A new poll suggests that President Bush is the most unpopular president in modern American history.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Thursday indicates that 71 percent of the American public disapprove of how Bush is handling his job as president.

"No president has ever had a higher disapproval rating in any CNN or Gallup Poll; in fact, this is the first time that any president's disapproval rating has cracked the 70 percent mark," said Keating Holland, CNN's polling director.

"Bush's approval rating, which stands at 28 percent in our new poll, remains better than the all-time lows set by Harry Truman and Richard Nixon [22 percent and 24 percent, respectively], but even those two presidents never got a disapproval rating in the 70s," Holland said. "The previous all-time record in CNN or Gallup polling was set by Truman, 67 percent disapproval in January 1952."

While Gallup polling goes back to the 1930s, it wasn't until the Truman years that they began surveying monthly approval ratings.

CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider adds, "He is more unpopular than Richard Nixon was just before he resigned from the presidency in August 1974."

President Nixon's disapproval rating in August 1974 stood at 66 percent

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The poll also indicates that support for the war in Iraq has never been lower. Thirty percent of those questioned favored the war, while 68 percent opposed it.

"Americans are growing more pessimistic about the war," Holland said. "In January, nearly half believed that things were going well for the U.S. in Iraq; now that figure has dropped to 39 percent."

The numbers on the Iraq war come on the five-year anniversary of Bush's "Mission Accomplished" moment on board the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, when he proclaimed that "major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

The record-low support for the war in a CNN poll could be one reason behind the president's unpopularity, but it probably is not the only one.

"Support for the war, the assessment of the economy and approval of Mr. Bush are all about the same -- bad," Schneider said.


The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll was conducted by telephone from Monday through Wednesday among 1,008 adult Americans.

The poll's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage


So since we have a poll that shows bush is the worst president ever then he must be..:lmao

[LnGrrrR]

As Speaker Pelosi has so eloquently pointed out, they need to pass it before we'll know what's in it.

But, if it's the Senate Bill that passed before Christmas this is eventually signed into law, There are the penalties for non-insurance that will drive people away from private to government insurance and there are price controls that will drive medical professionals out of the business.

Use your logic, LnGrrrR. If there is an individual mandate for insurance -- which there is, who is left to seek private health care? The logical outcome is that all medical professionals are part of the "plan" and unable to provide care outside the system.

If that's not the case, Obamacare won't work. Better yet, if that's the case, why not just expand Medicare and insure the uninsured now? No, they have to drive everyone off private insurance and everyone out of private medical care for their scheme to work.

I can't believe you think this legislation is on the up and up with all the shenanigans they're pulling to get it into law.

This "Slaughter" tactic, if they employ it, is going to seal the Democrats' fate in November.

I don't think any legislation is on the up-and-up. However, your logic pretty much defies any notion of free markets.

If people are unhappy with the private health care they're getting, there will be markets for better health care at higher prices. You pointed it out in a thread about medical surgery vacations.

Markets don't just disappear, for the most part. There will still be rich people who want to get health care done, and there's no way that overseas practices will be able to keep up with demand. So some practices in the states will exist to cater to rich clientele. They may have to change some business practices, but they will exist.

I'm highly skeptical of any one bill completely eliminating an entire market. And that's not even going into loopholes, errors in the bill, exceptions, graft, etc etc.

[boutons_deux]

What Yoni's America-is-best ignorance prevents him from knowing is that all adult countries with national health insurance, even with govt-employed docs and nurses, still have robust private insurance for those who can afford to cover their deductibles and queue jump, much like HSA and Flex accounts allow US people to pay for their non-allowed medical expenses with pre-tax income.