Hollinger would take Bucks over Mavs in playoff series

[Ghazi]

:wow

After 13 in a row, Mavs still No. 13
PER Diem: March 11, 2010
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By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
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Layne Murdoch/NBAE/Getty Images
The Mavs are four-and-a-half games up on the Thunder. But can they beat KD & Co. in the playoffs?
This is the fourth season of the Power Rankings, and most of the time the world order is fairly straightforward. Generally, the teams at the top (and bottom) are there for a reason, and the rankings more or less follow the general consensus of NBA observers.

Every once in a while, however, the rankings deviate from the norm, and the e-mails pour in. For some reason, the Dallas Mavericks have been more involved in these controversies than most teams. In 2007, the Power Rankings had hardly debuted when I was excoriated for ranking a 58-win San Antonio team ahead of the 67-win Mavs. Columnists in both cities called me an idiot, marking possibly the first time the two Texas rivals agreed on something. Alas, the Spurs won the NBA title that season, and the episode was forgotten quickly.

This time around, we have another difference of opinion regarding the Mavs. Dallas has won 13 straight games, owns the fourth-best record in basketball, is tied for the NBA lead with 22 road wins and has most folks considering it a strong title contender in the wake of a deadline-week trade for Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood.

The Power Rankings? Not so much. They place the Mavs at a modest 13th in a 30-team league.

Why the disconnect? Well, I can pinpoint a couple of reasons. For starters, I've been writing for a while about how compressed the top of the league is this season relative to the middle and the bottom, and the Mavs provide an object lesson.

With a rating of 102.4, the Mavs are about as close to top-ranked Orlando (107.3) as they are to No. 18 Chicago (97.7). Only 3.4 points separate No. 4 Los Angeles from No. 14 Miami, implying that a meeting between nearly any of those 11 teams would hinge on home-court advantage. As if to prove that point, the Lakers and Heat went to overtime in Miami last week, and the Heat prevailed.

The other thing to keep in mind is that first and foremost, the Power Rankings are a predictive tool. The idea is to compare the rating to the left of each team's name, add three points to the team with home-court advantage, then make a prediction. Wednesday night, for instance, the Power Rankings had the Mavs as 13.6-point favorites at home against New Jersey; Dallas actually won by nine.

It may surprise people to learn that in building a predictive tool, scoring margin and schedule strength are more important than wins and losses. (Or maybe it's not a surprise, since I've railed about this for so long.) Dallas doesn't grade terribly well in these categories -- the Mavs' scoring margin is the league's 12th-best, for instance, against opposition that's a perfectly average .500 when not playing the Mavs.

The Power Rankings weigh a team's most recent 25 percent of games most heavily, which you'd think would favor the Mavs because they've won 13 straight. Actually, it doesn't. Included in the mix are a 36-point beatdown in Denver and an awful home loss to Minnesota, and no victories by more than 13 points. As a result, their scoring margin in their past 17 games, which have been against the league's fourth-weakest schedule (.458), is an unimpressive plus-3.1.

If you're curious, the Minnesota defeat will go off Dallas' recent-games résumé after Saturday's game against the Knicks, while the Denver fiasco won't disappear until March 21. (In a scheduling quirk, Dallas only plays three games in the next 10 days.) Barring any other meltdowns, the Mavs' power ranking should improve by about a point, which would move them to 10th -- still well short of their perceived place in the universe.

Let's get back to the predictive tool thing for a minute.

Believe it or not, the Power Rankings have predicted recent Mavericks games quite well. It installed Dallas as a favorite in all but three of the 13 games in the streak (at Atlanta, at Charlotte and at Orlando), with the Lakers game seen as a toss-up. In other words, 10 of Dallas' 13 wins didn't do much to change their standing in the world of the Power Rankings. Once you adjust for home-court advantage, Dallas' six previous games all were won by the higher-ranked team as well, meaning the Power Rankings have gone 16-3 with one push in the Mavs' 20 most recent games. Not too shabby.

I also should point out that my predictive model is not the only one that is dismissive of Dallas. The predictor of USA Today's Jeff Sagarin has it ranked 12th.

Nonetheless, most fans seem flabbergasted that I have Dallas just 13th. So let's take it team by team with the franchises ranked ahead of Dallas and ask two questions: 1. How are they ranked ahead of the Mavs? and 2. Would I pick the Mavs to beat them in a series? Walk through the exercise, and perhaps their positioning will become more understandable:


1. Orlando Magic
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Magic are only a half-game ahead of Dallas in win-loss record, but they are miles ahead in scoring margin both on the season (plus-6.4, second in the NBA) and in recent games (a league-leading plus-10.2), enabling the Magic to take the top spot in the Power Rankings.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas' win in Orlando on Feb. 19 was the most impressive of the 13-game streak, but Orlando also shot 4-for-25 on 3s in that game -- an event unlikely to repeat itself in future meetings. The Magic are playing better than any other team in basketball right now, so the Mavs will have their hands full when the two clubs reconvene on April 1 in Dallas.


2. Utah Jazz
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Jazz are 23-5 in their past 28 games and have the best scoring margin in the West in the past 25 percent of their schedule. For the season, the Jazz' scoring margin is nearly equal to the conference-leading Lakers', and they've played the league's most difficult schedule to date. (Opponents have a .520 winning percentage when not facing the Jazz.)

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. The Jazz have won two of three meetings between the clubs and on paper appear to be a much better team this season. The two sides won't face each other the rest of the regular season but could very well meet in the second round of the playoffs.


3. Cleveland Cavaliers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Cavaliers have the league's best scoring margin (plus-7.2) and, despite injuries to LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal, have managed to improve on that margin in recent play (plus-8.5), including a win over San Antonio on Tuesday without either player.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. The teams split their two meetings this season, but the Cavs sport the ultimate trump card in James. They also arguably improved themselves more than the Mavs at the trade deadline with the acquisition of Antawn Jamison, a deal that will have cost nothing after the return of Zydrunas Ilgauskas.


4. L.A. Lakers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Lakers sport the best scoring margin in the West at plus-6.0 and have played a very difficult schedule (.516, even though they're the only team that doesn't have to face the Lakers). Although they've scuffled in recent games, the Lakers' plus-3.3 margin in the past 25 percent of their schedule is still stronger than Dallas' plus-3.1, and it has come against much stronger opposition.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No, but I'd think about it. The two teams split their four regular-season meetings, and the Mavericks appear to match up pretty well against L.A.'s size, especially in the wake of the Haywood trade. Dallas also has defended Kobe Bryant very effectively in their four meetings. The problem is the Mavs can't score on L.A., either.


5. Phoenix Suns
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Thanks to a recent spurt after the insertion of Robin Lopez as the starting center, the Suns are 14-4 in their past 18 games with a plus-7.2 scoring margin -- against strong opposition, too. For the full season, the Suns' scoring margin isn't much better than the Mavs', however.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas won two of the three regular-season meetings but also was home for two of them, and a single point decided the first one (a 102-101 Mavs win on Nov. 8). Basically, it's a wash on that front. I'd take Phoenix based on its vastly improved D in the wake of the Lopez move. These two teams could meet as the No. 4 and No. 5 seeds in the West, in which case Dallas' home-court advantage would be another factor to consider. But I'd still take Phoenix.


6. Denver Nuggets
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Nuggets haven't awed, but they've been consistently solid. They have a plus-5.1 scoring margin for the season, and although that's down to plus-4.0 in recent games, they've played the league's second-toughest schedule during that stretch. All those marks are superior to Dallas'.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
You saw the playoffs last year, right? Although the Mavs have somewhat addressed the glaring athletic deficit that faced them in their second-round smackdown by the Nuggies in 2009, this probably would be the worst matchup for Dallas. I should note that the 127-91 beating by Denver in February came on a terrible back-to-back for the Mavs, so that's probably an unfair indicator. The two teams will meet March 29 in Dallas, and if the Mavs win, they'll take the season series 2-1 thanks in part to having two of the games at home. But home or away, I'd take Denver in a series.


7. San Antonio Spurs
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Because the Spurs are great at beating the teams they're supposed to. San Antonio has struggled mightily against the big boys, but when Sacramento or the Knicks come to town, they take of business. As a result, they have a solid scoring margin (plus-4.4) despite a strong schedule overall (.506). Subjectively, though, I think the Power Rankings have overrated San Antonio for a while thanks to some early-season blowouts.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Yes, especially if it started today. Tony Parker is the one problem matchup for Dallas, and he's out for the next six weeks. Even with Parker, I'd be inclined to take Dallas because the Spurs don't match up well defensively against Dirk Nowitzki, and the Mavs beat San Antonio in five games last year. Dallas also has won two of three meetings this season, making it seven of nine going back to last March.


8. Oklahoma City Thunder
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Thunder's overall scoring margin (plus-3.5) doesn't beat the Mavs' by much, but they've picked it up lately -- OKC has outscored opponents by 5.8 points in the most recent quarter of its schedule. The Thunder also benefit from a relatively strong season schedule, so they have slight advantages on Dallas in the four main categories that the Power Rankings consider (home-road differential being the fifth, but that's rarely a factor this late in the season).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Oklahoma City was the last team to beat Dallas, 99-86 on Feb. 16; the Mavs won the first two meetings, but one was by a single point on Jan. 15. Since that game, the Thunder are 18-6, and youngsters Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant are still improving. The Thunder also have a lot of length to throw at Nowitzki defensively and are a tough cover for Dallas' wings with Durant. My theory will be tested on April 3, when the Mavs and Thunder meet again in Dallas.


9. Atlanta Hawks
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Hawks are a point ahead of Dallas in the Power Rankings based almost entirely on their superior scoring margin during the course of the season. Of late, the Hawks haven't played particularly well, but their scoring margin in recent games still isn't any worse than the Mavs'. Of note is that the Hawks came the closest to beating Dallas in the recent streak, leading by 14 in the fourth quarter before succumbing in overtime, thanks in part to the infamous Jason Kidd versus Mike Woodson encounter.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Honestly, I'd probably flip a coin. The Hawks outrate Dallas at the moment but also have benefited from being unusually, ridiculously healthy. Presuming the Mavs are at somewhere near full health, too, that advantage for the Hawks would go away in a series. Head-to-head, it's about as even between these teams as you could get: They've split six meetings during the past three years. This season, Atlanta won the first meeting in Dallas, and the Mavs won the second one in overtime. In a seven-game series, I'd go with whichever side had home-court advantage.


10. Portland Trail Blazers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Blazers are only a half-point ahead of the Mavs in the Power Rankings and have virtually identical marks across the board. The lone difference is that Portland's recent games have come against relatively strong opposition (.508), while the Mavs' have come against some of the league's weakest (.458).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Not even with home-court advantage, which could prove interesting because they may face each other as the No. 2 and No. 7 seeds in the West. Portland beat the Mavs twice in Dallas already, once without Brandon Roy and twice with Juwan Howard manning the middle. The Blazers arguably also made more impactful deadline additions than the Mavs by trading for Marcus Camby and bringing Nicolas Batum back from injury. The state of Roy's hamstring is a lingering worry, but that would be the only reason to shift my choice to Dallas. The two sides will meet in Portland on March 25 and again on April 9.


11. Milwaukee Bucks
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Of all the e-mails I get, the most common is, "How you can have MILWAUKEE ahead of the Mavs?!?!?!" This is unfair to the Bucks. Unbeknownst to most Mavs fans or the larger world in general, the Bucks may be the hottest team in the league right now. Since acquiring John Salmons, they've won nine of 10, with the lone defeat coming in overtime in Atlanta (immediately after Dallas went to overtime in Atlanta -- that was a heck of a basketball weekend in the Peach State).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas won both meetings versus Milwaukee but by the smallest of margins (one in overtime, the other by a single point). Because both contests happened before the Bucks' recent rejuvenation, I'd lean toward Milwaukee in a neutral-site series. The Bucks are unquestionably the East's most dangerous low seed heading into the playoffs.


12. Boston Celtics
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Celtics land one-tenth of a point ahead of Dallas based almost entirely on their body of work the first two months of the season, when Boston was 23-5 and competing for the top spot in the Power Rankings. Since that point, it's 17-18 with a barely positive scoring margin and in the most recent 25 percent of their schedule, its margin is a scant plus-0.3 despite a schedule nearly as soft as the Mavericks' (.472).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Yes. Emphatically so. We'll get a test of that view on March 20 when the Celtics visit Big D, but the C's aren't looking real strong right now. Boston's veterans are running on fumes, and there's not enough help on the bench to drag it past the finish line, as Wednesday night's home blowout loss to Memphis further showed. It's possible the Celts won't make it out of the first round.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100311

[badfish22]

:wakeup

[djohn2oo8]

:wow

After 13 in a row, Mavs still No. 13
PER Diem: March 11, 2010
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By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
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Layne Murdoch/NBAE/Getty Images
The Mavs are four-and-a-half games up on the Thunder. But can they beat KD & Co. in the playoffs?
This is the fourth season of the Power Rankings, and most of the time the world order is fairly straightforward. Generally, the teams at the top (and bottom) are there for a reason, and the rankings more or less follow the general consensus of NBA observers.

Every once in a while, however, the rankings deviate from the norm, and the e-mails pour in. For some reason, the Dallas Mavericks have been more involved in these controversies than most teams. In 2007, the Power Rankings had hardly debuted when I was excoriated for ranking a 58-win San Antonio team ahead of the 67-win Mavs. Columnists in both cities called me an idiot, marking possibly the first time the two Texas rivals agreed on something. Alas, the Spurs won the NBA title that season, and the episode was forgotten quickly.

This time around, we have another difference of opinion regarding the Mavs. Dallas has won 13 straight games, owns the fourth-best record in basketball, is tied for the NBA lead with 22 road wins and has most folks considering it a strong title contender in the wake of a deadline-week trade for Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood.

The Power Rankings? Not so much. They place the Mavs at a modest 13th in a 30-team league.

Why the disconnect? Well, I can pinpoint a couple of reasons. For starters, I've been writing for a while about how compressed the top of the league is this season relative to the middle and the bottom, and the Mavs provide an object lesson.

With a rating of 102.4, the Mavs are about as close to top-ranked Orlando (107.3) as they are to No. 18 Chicago (97.7). Only 3.4 points separate No. 4 Los Angeles from No. 14 Miami, implying that a meeting between nearly any of those 11 teams would hinge on home-court advantage. As if to prove that point, the Lakers and Heat went to overtime in Miami last week, and the Heat prevailed.

The other thing to keep in mind is that first and foremost, the Power Rankings are a predictive tool. The idea is to compare the rating to the left of each team's name, add three points to the team with home-court advantage, then make a prediction. Wednesday night, for instance, the Power Rankings had the Mavs as 13.6-point favorites at home against New Jersey; Dallas actually won by nine.

It may surprise people to learn that in building a predictive tool, scoring margin and schedule strength are more important than wins and losses. (Or maybe it's not a surprise, since I've railed about this for so long.) Dallas doesn't grade terribly well in these categories -- the Mavs' scoring margin is the league's 12th-best, for instance, against opposition that's a perfectly average .500 when not playing the Mavs.

The Power Rankings weigh a team's most recent 25 percent of games most heavily, which you'd think would favor the Mavs because they've won 13 straight. Actually, it doesn't. Included in the mix are a 36-point beatdown in Denver and an awful home loss to Minnesota, and no victories by more than 13 points. As a result, their scoring margin in their past 17 games, which have been against the league's fourth-weakest schedule (.458), is an unimpressive plus-3.1.

If you're curious, the Minnesota defeat will go off Dallas' recent-games résumé after Saturday's game against the Knicks, while the Denver fiasco won't disappear until March 21. (In a scheduling quirk, Dallas only plays three games in the next 10 days.) Barring any other meltdowns, the Mavs' power ranking should improve by about a point, which would move them to 10th -- still well short of their perceived place in the universe.

Let's get back to the predictive tool thing for a minute.

Believe it or not, the Power Rankings have predicted recent Mavericks games quite well. It installed Dallas as a favorite in all but three of the 13 games in the streak (at Atlanta, at Charlotte and at Orlando), with the Lakers game seen as a toss-up. In other words, 10 of Dallas' 13 wins didn't do much to change their standing in the world of the Power Rankings. Once you adjust for home-court advantage, Dallas' six previous games all were won by the higher-ranked team as well, meaning the Power Rankings have gone 16-3 with one push in the Mavs' 20 most recent games. Not too shabby.

I also should point out that my predictive model is not the only one that is dismissive of Dallas. The predictor of USA Today's Jeff Sagarin has it ranked 12th.

Nonetheless, most fans seem flabbergasted that I have Dallas just 13th. So let's take it team by team with the franchises ranked ahead of Dallas and ask two questions: 1. How are they ranked ahead of the Mavs? and 2. Would I pick the Mavs to beat them in a series? Walk through the exercise, and perhaps their positioning will become more understandable:


1. Orlando Magic
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Magic are only a half-game ahead of Dallas in win-loss record, but they are miles ahead in scoring margin both on the season (plus-6.4, second in the NBA) and in recent games (a league-leading plus-10.2), enabling the Magic to take the top spot in the Power Rankings.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas' win in Orlando on Feb. 19 was the most impressive of the 13-game streak, but Orlando also shot 4-for-25 on 3s in that game -- an event unlikely to repeat itself in future meetings. The Magic are playing better than any other team in basketball right now, so the Mavs will have their hands full when the two clubs reconvene on April 1 in Dallas.


2. Utah Jazz
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Jazz are 23-5 in their past 28 games and have the best scoring margin in the West in the past 25 percent of their schedule. For the season, the Jazz' scoring margin is nearly equal to the conference-leading Lakers', and they've played the league's most difficult schedule to date. (Opponents have a .520 winning percentage when not facing the Jazz.)

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. The Jazz have won two of three meetings between the clubs and on paper appear to be a much better team this season. The two sides won't face each other the rest of the regular season but could very well meet in the second round of the playoffs.


3. Cleveland Cavaliers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Cavaliers have the league's best scoring margin (plus-7.2) and, despite injuries to LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal, have managed to improve on that margin in recent play (plus-8.5), including a win over San Antonio on Tuesday without either player.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. The teams split their two meetings this season, but the Cavs sport the ultimate trump card in James. They also arguably improved themselves more than the Mavs at the trade deadline with the acquisition of Antawn Jamison, a deal that will have cost nothing after the return of Zydrunas Ilgauskas.


4. L.A. Lakers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Lakers sport the best scoring margin in the West at plus-6.0 and have played a very difficult schedule (.516, even though they're the only team that doesn't have to face the Lakers). Although they've scuffled in recent games, the Lakers' plus-3.3 margin in the past 25 percent of their schedule is still stronger than Dallas' plus-3.1, and it has come against much stronger opposition.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No, but I'd think about it. The two teams split their four regular-season meetings, and the Mavericks appear to match up pretty well against L.A.'s size, especially in the wake of the Haywood trade. Dallas also has defended Kobe Bryant very effectively in their four meetings. The problem is the Mavs can't score on L.A., either.


5. Phoenix Suns
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Thanks to a recent spurt after the insertion of Robin Lopez as the starting center, the Suns are 14-4 in their past 18 games with a plus-7.2 scoring margin -- against strong opposition, too. For the full season, the Suns' scoring margin isn't much better than the Mavs', however.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas won two of the three regular-season meetings but also was home for two of them, and a single point decided the first one (a 102-101 Mavs win on Nov. 8). Basically, it's a wash on that front. I'd take Phoenix based on its vastly improved D in the wake of the Lopez move. These two teams could meet as the No. 4 and No. 5 seeds in the West, in which case Dallas' home-court advantage would be another factor to consider. But I'd still take Phoenix.


6. Denver Nuggets
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Nuggets haven't awed, but they've been consistently solid. They have a plus-5.1 scoring margin for the season, and although that's down to plus-4.0 in recent games, they've played the league's second-toughest schedule during that stretch. All those marks are superior to Dallas'.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
You saw the playoffs last year, right? Although the Mavs have somewhat addressed the glaring athletic deficit that faced them in their second-round smackdown by the Nuggies in 2009, this probably would be the worst matchup for Dallas. I should note that the 127-91 beating by Denver in February came on a terrible back-to-back for the Mavs, so that's probably an unfair indicator. The two teams will meet March 29 in Dallas, and if the Mavs win, they'll take the season series 2-1 thanks in part to having two of the games at home. But home or away, I'd take Denver in a series.


7. San Antonio Spurs
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Because the Spurs are great at beating the teams they're supposed to. San Antonio has struggled mightily against the big boys, but when Sacramento or the Knicks come to town, they take of business. As a result, they have a solid scoring margin (plus-4.4) despite a strong schedule overall (.506). Subjectively, though, I think the Power Rankings have overrated San Antonio for a while thanks to some early-season blowouts.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Yes, especially if it started today. Tony Parker is the one problem matchup for Dallas, and he's out for the next six weeks. Even with Parker, I'd be inclined to take Dallas because the Spurs don't match up well defensively against Dirk Nowitzki, and the Mavs beat San Antonio in five games last year. Dallas also has won two of three meetings this season, making it seven of nine going back to last March.


8. Oklahoma City Thunder
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Thunder's overall scoring margin (plus-3.5) doesn't beat the Mavs' by much, but they've picked it up lately -- OKC has outscored opponents by 5.8 points in the most recent quarter of its schedule. The Thunder also benefit from a relatively strong season schedule, so they have slight advantages on Dallas in the four main categories that the Power Rankings consider (home-road differential being the fifth, but that's rarely a factor this late in the season).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Oklahoma City was the last team to beat Dallas, 99-86 on Feb. 16; the Mavs won the first two meetings, but one was by a single point on Jan. 15. Since that game, the Thunder are 18-6, and youngsters Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant are still improving. The Thunder also have a lot of length to throw at Nowitzki defensively and are a tough cover for Dallas' wings with Durant. My theory will be tested on April 3, when the Mavs and Thunder meet again in Dallas.


9. Atlanta Hawks
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Hawks are a point ahead of Dallas in the Power Rankings based almost entirely on their superior scoring margin during the course of the season. Of late, the Hawks haven't played particularly well, but their scoring margin in recent games still isn't any worse than the Mavs'. Of note is that the Hawks came the closest to beating Dallas in the recent streak, leading by 14 in the fourth quarter before succumbing in overtime, thanks in part to the infamous Jason Kidd versus Mike Woodson encounter.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Honestly, I'd probably flip a coin. The Hawks outrate Dallas at the moment but also have benefited from being unusually, ridiculously healthy. Presuming the Mavs are at somewhere near full health, too, that advantage for the Hawks would go away in a series. Head-to-head, it's about as even between these teams as you could get: They've split six meetings during the past three years. This season, Atlanta won the first meeting in Dallas, and the Mavs won the second one in overtime. In a seven-game series, I'd go with whichever side had home-court advantage.


10. Portland Trail Blazers
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Blazers are only a half-point ahead of the Mavs in the Power Rankings and have virtually identical marks across the board. The lone difference is that Portland's recent games have come against relatively strong opposition (.508), while the Mavs' have come against some of the league's weakest (.458).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Not even with home-court advantage, which could prove interesting because they may face each other as the No. 2 and No. 7 seeds in the West. Portland beat the Mavs twice in Dallas already, once without Brandon Roy and twice with Juwan Howard manning the middle. The Blazers arguably also made more impactful deadline additions than the Mavs by trading for Marcus Camby and bringing Nicolas Batum back from injury. The state of Roy's hamstring is a lingering worry, but that would be the only reason to shift my choice to Dallas. The two sides will meet in Portland on March 25 and again on April 9.


11. Milwaukee Bucks
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Of all the e-mails I get, the most common is, "How you can have MILWAUKEE ahead of the Mavs?!?!?!" This is unfair to the Bucks. Unbeknownst to most Mavs fans or the larger world in general, the Bucks may be the hottest team in the league right now. Since acquiring John Salmons, they've won nine of 10, with the lone defeat coming in overtime in Atlanta (immediately after Dallas went to overtime in Atlanta -- that was a heck of a basketball weekend in the Peach State).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
No. Dallas won both meetings versus Milwaukee but by the smallest of margins (one in overtime, the other by a single point). Because both contests happened before the Bucks' recent rejuvenation, I'd lean toward Milwaukee in a neutral-site series. The Bucks are unquestionably the East's most dangerous low seed heading into the playoffs.


12. Boston Celtics
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
The Celtics land one-tenth of a point ahead of Dallas based almost entirely on their body of work the first two months of the season, when Boston was 23-5 and competing for the top spot in the Power Rankings. Since that point, it's 17-18 with a barely positive scoring margin and in the most recent 25 percent of their schedule, its margin is a scant plus-0.3 despite a schedule nearly as soft as the Mavericks' (.472).

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Yes. Emphatically so. We'll get a test of that view on March 20 when the Celtics visit Big D, but the C's aren't looking real strong right now. Boston's veterans are running on fumes, and there's not enough help on the bench to drag it past the finish line, as Wednesday night's home blowout loss to Memphis further showed. It's possible the Celts won't make it out of the first round.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100311

Why do you care about what Hollinger writes?

[Pelicans78]

Hollinger forgets to incorporate the big trade into his thinking.

[lurker]

The Mavericks really must have peed in his cornflakes. It's just comical at this point.

[in2deep]

the bucks are kicking serious ass. I don't blame him

[badfish22]

the bucks are kicking serious ass. I don't blame him

Yeah the Mavs have been sucking lately.

[Findog]

This guy is a fucking moron:


It may surprise people to learn that in building a predictive tool, scoring margin and schedule strength are more important than wins and losses. (Or maybe it's not a surprise, since I've railed about this for so long.) Dallas doesn't grade terribly well in these categories -- the Mavs' scoring margin is the league's 12th-best, for instance, against opposition that's a perfectly average .500 when not playing the Mavs.

Their point-differential is +6.22 since the trade. If they'd been doing that all year, that would put them third behind Cleveland and Orlando and ahead of the Lakers. Their entire body of work isn't impressive as the other "contenders" because they were a slightly above-average team before the trade. This trade has clearly transformed our team. I don't expect "Power Rankings" that take statistics from the entire season to catch that, but to deny that they've made a huge upgrade is silly.


Portland beat the Mavs twice in Dallas already,

Before the trade


No. Dallas won both meetings versus Milwaukee but by the smallest of margins (one in overtime, the other by a single point). Because both contests happened before the Bucks' recent rejuvenation, I'd lean toward Milwaukee in a neutral-site series. The Bucks are unquestionably the East's most dangerous low seed heading into the playoffs.

:lol...The Bucks get credit for their recent rejuvenation from getting John Salmons, but the Mavs don't get credit for their trade that gave them a great upgrade in talent.

It's one thing if he wants to say "Hey, this is the formula I use, I put the numbers in and this is what the formula comes up with, don't shoot the messenger." But then he doubles down on the absurdity and claims the Mavs would lose to the Blazers, Zombie Sonics, Suns and Bucks in a playoff series.

[in2deep]

Yeah the Mavs have been sucking lately.

I probably would take the Mavs too. But I don't blame him for picking the Bucks.

[Findog]

Hollinger forgets to incorporate the big trade into his thinking.

Yeah, he notes that the Mavs beat the Bucks in their two meetings, then he says that should be discounted because of Milwaukee's recent resurgence, which I guess refers to them winning 10 of 11 since trading for John Salmons. Meanwhile, the Mavs are a vastly improved team because of their trade, but they should still be evaluated as if Josh Howard, Drew Gooden, James Singleton and Quentin Ross are still here. Does that make sense?

[Pelicans78]

Yeah, he notes that the Mavs beat the Bucks in their two meetings, then he says that should be discounted because of Milwaukee's recent resurgence, which I guess refers to them winning 10 of 11 since trading for John Salmons. Meanwhile, the Mavs are a vastly improved team because of their trade, but they should still be evaluated as if Josh Howard, Drew Gooden, James Singleton and Quentin Ross are still here. Does that make sense?

Exactly. He's basically using how the Mavs played before the trade in order to justify his current thinking. Also, he says the Mavs were already expected to be 10-3 anyway which I can counter with its not easy winning every game you're supposed to win and win every game you're supposed to lose which the Mavs have done.

Anyway, the Mavs haven't been completely healthy during this streak so its not fair to say their point differential is down. I think Hollinger is being unreasonable.

[Findog]

He thinks Phoenix (a shaky defensive team for post-season purposes) is a surer bet to beat Dallas in a series than the Lakers.

[DAF86]

lol you know the Spurs and Celtics suck badly when Hollinger goes against his numbers to say they will lose.

[Findog]

Exactly. He's basically using how the Mavs played before the trade in order to justify his current thinking. Also, he says the Mavs were already expected to be 10-3 anyway which I can counter with its not easy winning every game you're supposed to win and win every game you're supposed to lose which the Mavs have done.

Anyway, the Mavs haven't been completely healthy during this streak so its not fair to say their point differential is down. I think Hollinger is being unreasonable.

Their PD since the trade is actually excellent: + 6.22. That's the PD of an elite team. His formula is leading to an absurd conclusion of Dallas being the 13th best team in the league when at worst they're in the top 8. And rather than tweak his formula, he's doubling down.

[TDMVPDPOY]

SPURS AT 7? wtf hahahaha we are struggling to keep in the playoff race...

[redzero]

Why do you care about what Hollinger writes?

Exactly.

[Findog]

Exactly.

It's something to argue about until the playoffs arrive.

[nkdlunch]

In 2007, the Power Rankings had hardly debuted when I was excoriated for ranking a 58-win San Antonio team ahead of the 67-win Mavs. Columnists in both cities called me an idiot, marking possibly the first time the two Texas rivals agreed on something. Alas, the Spurs won the NBA title that season, and the episode was forgotten quickly.


:lmao

[4>0rings]

Spurs>Mavs

[Phillip]

he is saying this stuff because it generates results. thats how him and charley rosen have jobs, despite both having some seemingly retarded viewpoints. for some reason, people are determined to read their articles to see what kind of new bullshit they say, and thus it helps ESPN/Fox's ratings and view count. thats all it is. attention whoring. id put money on it that he doesnt truly believe this stuff, and if he does... well oh well. hes still producing results for his company, albeit in a way that drives people nuts.

[lil_penny]

I think portland beat mavs both time without roy, rudy, oden, and batum... I don't know how we did dallas has always been a team that kills us. They have since picked up haywood and butler along with stevenson wich makes me not want to see them in the post season

[CubanMustGo]

Hollinger's only repping what his stupid formulas tell him. He does the same crap every year. One time in ten his numbers get it right (witness the '07 example he cites EVERY TIME) and he thinks they're infallible.

[Colombiano972]

Trollinger FTL.

[alchemist]

Hollinger is only saying what everyone outside of Dallas knows. They're pretenders. :downspin:

[jacobdrj]

Decided on the court, hmmm... I'll take Dallas over anyone but maybe Clevland, Utah, or LAL... Maybe MAYBE Denver...

[Cane]

Hollinger's only repping what his stupid formulas tell him. He does the same crap every year. One time in ten his numbers get it right (witness the '07 example he cites EVERY TIME) and he thinks they're infallible.

One in four doesn't seem that bad imo especially since he called that infamous Dallas "upset":




This is the fourth season of the Power Rankings,

And for the hell of it:



Believe it or not, the Power Rankings have predicted recent Mavericks games quite well. It installed Dallas as a favorite in all but three of the 13 games in the streak (at Atlanta, at Charlotte and at Orlando), with the Lakers game seen as a toss-up. In other words, 10 of Dallas' 13 wins didn't do much to change their standing in the world of the Power Rankings. Once you adjust for home-court advantage, Dallas' six previous games all were won by the higher-ranked team as well, meaning the Power Rankings have gone 16-3 with one push in the Mavs' 20 most recent games. Not too shabby.

[badfish22]

Decided on the court, hmmm... I'll take Dallas over anyone but maybe Clevland, Utah, or LAL... Maybe MAYBE Denver...

Utah? I could see Denver, but we would beat Utah imo.

[Findog]

Utah? I could see Denver, but we would beat Utah imo.

Eh, I can justify picking Utah over Dallas in a series. I'd pick LA and Cleveland over Dallas for sure, and I'd be inclined to favor Denver as well. Utah I think is a tossup, as it would really depend on HCA. Orlando we've had some real success against and we match up favorably with them, so that would be a tossup as well. Point being, I would only pick five teams at most over the Mavs in that list.

[jacobdrj]

I said maybe to the 1st 3, and double maybe (extremely remote chance) of Denver. As long as the Mavs get Denver in the WCF, Mavs are shoe-ins... (C-Bill joke).

[endrity]

For some reason I feel better against Denver than Utah. The Jazz always play us tough, and I don't know when was the last time the Mavs won in SLC.

I think we have improved a lot against the Nuggets, and let's not forget whatever anyone says: Dirk was the best player of that series last year. He had legit defenders on him and still tore them to shreds. Melo had a broken down Josh and Antoine f'ing Wright on him. He's gonna have to deal with Trix, TuffJuice and Stevenson this year and those are massive upgrades. And he's gonna have to work his ass on defense as well.

If Kenyon is anywhere not close to 100% I don't even know what they can do to Dirk, he pretty much owned Birdman and Nene whenever they tried to come close to him.

[monosylab1k]

Trollinger is getting alot of page views because of a lot of butthurt Mavs fans. I refuse to be one of those Mavs fans anymore.

As he spews this bullshit, he realizes all the traffic he's bringing to ESPN.com and he's gonna love the hefty raise he gets this offseason.

Mavs fans, if you want Trollinger to get what he deserves in life and wind up a homeless crackhead who sells his cornhole for money, then IGNORE HIM. HE'S WINDING US ALL UP BECAUSE WE'VE BECOME HIS CASH COW.

[DesignatedT]

lmao the bucks?

mavs getting no respect

[Xylus]

Teams that are better than the Mavericks now:

Cleveland
LA Lakers (barely)

Teams that are pretty even with the Mavericks:

Orlando
Denver

Teams that could beat the Mavericks in a tight series if they play up to their potential:

Boston
Phoenix
Utah

Teams that really don't have a shot, sorry:

Atlanta
OKC
Portland
San Antonio

LOL:

Milwaukee

[monosylab1k]

Teams that could beat the Mavericks in a tight series if they play up to their potential:

Boston
Phoenix
Utah

lol wut?

[Cane]

Aren't the Mavs 12th in point differential, 10th in offensive rating, and 12th in defensive rating?

Hollinger has been known to be right from time to time..especially about the Mavs :)

[Xylus]

lol wut?

Best rebounding team in the league over the last 20 games, improved defense, offense still running smoothly. Suns are in a great 18-game stretch, having gone 14-4 with a huge point differential.

The Suns could beat the Mavs only if they play at their highest level.

[HarlemHeat37]

Hollinger did predict the Mavs' demise before, but he's wrong here..it's not necessarily because of the system though..he's going by the numbers for the entire year, which was obviously a different Mavs team than the post-trade Mavs..it would also be unfair to use the numbers from the post-trade Mavs, because they're still riding high..we have to see how they look once adversity hits them, so we can see how they respond in that kind of situation..

[TD 21]

7. San Antonio Spurs
How are they ranked ahead of Dallas?
Because the Spurs are great at beating the teams they're supposed to. San Antonio has struggled mightily against the big boys, but when Sacramento or the Knicks come to town, they take of business. As a result, they have a solid scoring margin (plus-4.4) despite a strong schedule overall (.506). Subjectively, though, I think the Power Rankings have overrated San Antonio for a while thanks to some early-season blowouts.

Would I take Dallas to beat them in a series?
Yes, especially if it started today. Tony Parker is the one problem matchup for Dallas, and he's out for the next six weeks. Even with Parker, I'd be inclined to take Dallas because the Spurs don't match up well defensively against Dirk Nowitzki, and the Mavs beat San Antonio in five games last year. Dallas also has won two of three meetings this season, making it seven of nine going back to last March.http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100311

Really, Ginobili isn't a match-up problem for the Mavs? All of a sudden Butler is seen as some lock down defender? Ask the Wizards about that. He's solid, but I don't see him or career playoff choke artist Marion being able to slow down a healthy (which is what he finally is now) Ginobili. Speaking of Ginobili, Hollinger conveniently fails to mention that he didn't play in that series last year and Duncan was playing on what he described as "half a leg". But I guess that didn't play a role in the Spurs losing, they're only arguably the two best players on the team. As for Duncan, they're better equipped now to guard him with Haywood, but with Dampier ailing, if he couldn't go in a playoff series they'd be down to Haywood to single-handedly deal with playoff Duncan. Unless Haywood can guard him for roughly 40 minutes a game without getting into foul trouble, they'd once again lack a second Duncan defender.

I've got no problem with someone picking or favoring the Mavs in this match-up, but anyone who thinks the Spurs (if healthy) can't beat the Mavs is flat out overrating the Mavs or the recent history between the two teams. It's funny, everyone wants to disregard the Spurs past playoff success, but when it comes to this particular match-up people act like what happened in the past is pertinent. This is an entirely different Spurs team. Look at the games (aside from the playoff series, where injuries played a major part) the past few seasons, the Spurs have controlled the majority of them.

[monosylab1k]

Really, Ginobili isn't a match-up problem for the Mavs? All of a sudden Butler is seen as some lock down defender? Ask the Wizards about that. He's solid, but I don't see him or career playoff choke artist Marion being able to slow down a healthy (which is what he finally is now) Ginobili. Speaking of Ginobili, Hollinger conveniently fails to mention that he didn't play in that series last year and Duncan was playing on what he described as "half a leg". But I guess that didn't play a role in the Spurs losing, they're only arguably the two best players on the team. As for Duncan, they're better equipped now to guard him with Haywood, but with Dampier ailing, if he couldn't go in a playoff series they'd be down to Haywood to single-handedly deal with playoff Duncan.

I've got no problem with someone picking or favoring the Mavs in this match-up, but anyone who thinks the Spurs (if healthy) can't beat the Mavs is flat out overrating the Mavs or the recent history between the two teams. It's funny, everyone wants to disregard the Spurs past playoff success, but when it comes to this particular match-up people act like what happened in the past is pertinent. This is an entirely different Spurs team. Look at the games (aside from the playoff series, where injuries played a major part) the past few seasons, the Spurs have controlled the majority of them.

:lol try beating a LeBron-less Cavs, then talk about beating the Mavs. boom roasted.

[redzero]

Hollinger is only saying what everyone outside of Dallas knows. They're pretenders. :downspin:

That might be true, but they are not the 12th best team right now, regardless of whether they can truly compete for a title.

[Greg Oden]

:lol try beating a LeBron-less Cavs, then talk about beating the Mavs. boom roasted.

:lmao :rollin :lmao

[Ghazi]

Aren't the Mavs 12th in point differential, 10th in offensive rating, and 12th in defensive rating?

Hollinger has been known to be right from time to time..especially about the Mavs :)

Theyre top five in all of those categories since the trade.

[TD 21]

:lol try beating a LeBron-less Cavs, then talk about beating the Mavs. boom roasted.

The Mavs, like they're some powerhouse that someone has to seriously worry about. Joke fuckin' team that at best will push the Lakers to six games and that's only because the Lakers will probably not take them seriously until about game five. If Martin were healthy, the Mavs would get destroyed by the Nuggets as well. I also think a healthy Jazz and Spurs are capable of beating them in a series.

No team pulls more games out of their ass than the Mavs and idiots like you think that makes them some great team. I can't wait until they're exposed as pretenders in the playoffs once again. It's the same old problems: a loser for a star and no go-to player on the perimeter. I like Butler and he can fill that role against also-rans in the regular season, but when you're talking about playing championship caliber teams, he can't do it. You need a Bryant, James, Wade, Pierce, Ginobili, etc. and Butler's not it. He's like a better version of Jefferson.

[lurker]

Hollinger basically said on the radio that Haywood, Butler and Stevenson don't bring any toughness to the team because they came from the Wizards.

[Xylus]

The only thing that surprises me about the new-look Mavs is that their rebounding really hasn't improved. I figured that would be the biggest difference.

[Muser]

:lmao putting the spurs 7th

[DesignatedT]

if the mavs finish 2 and get the spurs as a 7 they seriously better watch out. at that point they would have a lot more to lose from that series than the spurs would.

[HarlemHeat37]

Seriously though, the Mavs have top-tier talent, but we obviously have to wait and see how they respond in the playoffs..they haven't had a good playoff series in years now, and we haven't seen if they recovered from the epic meltdowns yet..yes, I realize they won a series last year, but beating the Spurs with no Manu and half a Duncan isn't really an accomplishment..

I'd love to see them beat the Lakers though, hopefully they respond well against them if they play each other..

They look great right now though..it's good to see Dirk respond after that whole Cristal thing, I know how in love they were and how much it broke his heart..respect to him for bouncing back like he has..

[Ghazi]

Seriously though, the Mavs have top-tier talent, but we obviously have to wait and see how they respond in the playoffs..they haven't had a good playoff series in years now, and we haven't seen if they recovered from the epic meltdowns yet..yes, I realize they won a series last year, but beating the Spurs with no Manu and half a Duncan isn't really an accomplishment..

I'd love to see them beat the Lakers though, hopefully they respond well against them if they play each other..

"Half" a Duncan my ass.

lol exaggerated injuries.

80% of the team wasn't there for the "epic meltdowns" dumb shit... Dirk's clearly recovered, as evident by his playoff dominance ever since... Kidd/Butler/Marion/Haywood/crew have nothing to recover from.

[badfish22]

The only thing that surprises me about the new-look Mavs is that their rebounding really hasn't improved. I figured that would be the biggest difference.

We haven't had Dampier since the break, and Haywood missed a lot of games. Hopefully it gets better

[mavsfan1000]

if the mavs finish 2 and get the spurs as a 7 they seriously better watch out. at that point they would have a lot more to lose from that series than the spurs would.
I agree. Spurs are way better than their record says. They got Ginobili and Jefferson.

[TD 21]

if the mavs finish 2 and get the spurs as a 7 they seriously better watch out. at that point they would have a lot more to lose from that series than the spurs would.

Good point. For the first time in the Duncan and Nowitzki era for the their respective teams, the Mavs would be the favorites. In fact, they'd be the overwhelming favorites, probably picked by most to win in 5 or 6. Let's see them deal with that pressure against a team that still has (if healthy) a better core than the Mavs and a comparable team.

I don't think there's nearly the gap between the two that many think or the record suggests. Other than Lakers/Trail Blazers, the other three match-ups in the West have the potential to be long, drawn out series and we could definitely see an upset or two. The Nuggets, already thin on the front line, are suddenly vulnerable with Martin's knee injury.

Exaggerated injuries? Yeah, because that's what Duncan is known for. Apparently you're in his body and knew the pain he was in better than he did. You could see he had very little mobility. I'm amazed that Mavs fans and others neglect to mention the Spurs injuries in that series, but all we heard about last year was washed-up Garnett being injured for the Celtics.

[Ghazi]

I agree. Spurs are way better than their record says. They got Ginobili and Jefferson.

No they aren't

[Muser]

I agree. Spurs are way better than their record says. They got Ginobili and Jefferson.

Don't put Ginobili's name next to that POS.

[DesignatedT]

I agree. Spurs are way better than their record says. They got Ginobili and Jefferson.

I was implying that for the first time dallas would be the hands down no doubt about it favorite.... most would even consider them a lock for the wcf against the lakers if they end up getting that 2 seed.... that brings a lot of pressure on the backs of those players and for the first time the spurs will be playing that series as if they have nothing to lose because "they werent suppose to win that series to begin with"

the roles have always been flipped and well see how dallas deals with that pressure

im not saying the spurs are a better team at the moment, but with tony coming back for the playoffs i definitely wouldnt say it would be another 5 game series.

[DesignatedT]

Good point. For the first time in the Duncan and Nowitzki era for the their respective teams, the Mavs would be the favorites. In fact, they'd be the overwhelming favorites, probably picked by most to win in 5 or 6. Let's see them deal with that pressure against a team that still has (if healthy) a better core than the Mavs and a comparable team.

I don't think there's nearly the gap between the two that many think or the record suggests. Other than Lakers/Trail Blazers, the other three match-ups in the West have the potential to be long, drawn out series and we could definitely see an upset or two. The Nuggets, already thin on the front line, are suddenly vulnerable with Martin's knee injury.

Exaggerated injuries? Yeah, because that's what Duncan is known for. Apparently you're in his body and knew the pain he was in better than he did. You could see he had very little mobility. I'm amazed that Mavs fans and others neglect to mention the Spurs injuries in that series, but all we heard about last year was washed-up Garnett being injured for the Celtics.


exactly what i was trying to say.

[badfish22]

Good point. For the first time in the Duncan and Nowitzki era for the their respective teams, the Mavs would be the favorites.

lmao

[lurker]

Hard to judge the rebounding when they havent had both centers.


if the mavs finish 2 and get the spurs as a 7 they seriously better watch out. at that point they would have a lot more to lose from that series than the spurs would.
I hope the Mavericks are lucky enough to get them in the first round. That's the one matchup I feel very confident about. :lol I kind of miss the days when the Spurs were the team you wanted to avoid if at all possible.

[DesignatedT]

Hard to judge the rebounding when they havent had both centers.


I hope the Mavericks are lucky enough to get them in the first round. That's the one matchup I feel very confident about. :lol I kind of miss the days when the Spurs were the team you wanted to avoid if at all possible.

why would you miss those days? you came up empty handed when it came to :lobt2:

i would think it would be some kind of painful reminder.

[DesignatedT]

lmao

besides last year with no manu ginobili when were you guys even close to being the favorite of the series? and the spurs were still getting picked to beat you finishing with the better record in the regular season.

[mavsfan1000]

No they aren't
They are not a 7 seed type of team. I think of a 7 seed is a team that is barely 500 and are a quick out. It will most likely go 6 games imo if Dallas plays the Spurs.

[mavsfan1000]

Don't put Ginobili's name next to that POS.
Sorry I forgot to add they didn't have these players in last years playoffs. And Kidd gets killed by Parker but now Parker has some scoring help.

[Fpoonsie]

I miss the days when I used to have a relatively decent argument in defense of the Spurs beating the Mavs (or ANY team, for that matter).

:depressed

The Mavs are our daddies, and will remains so, until we can beat them in the POs again.

[DAF86]

No they aren't

Pretty much every Spurs victory has been a convincing one (by a big margin) while most of our loses have been close affairs (a lot of them wasting double digit leads), add to that the many injuries and I think it's safe to say that the Spurs are better than what their record suggests. They are not championship contenders but they aren't the 7th team in the west either.

[DesignatedT]

I miss the days when I used to have a relatively decent argument in defense of the Spurs beating the Mavs (or ANY team, for that matter).

:depressed

The Mavs are our daddies, and will remains so, until we can beat them in the POs again.

cheer up man. we still have the hardware.

[lurker]

why would you miss those days? you came up empty handed when it came to :lobt2:

i would think it would be some kind of painful reminder.
I miss that sense of rivalry. Mavs/Spurs games used to be the games on the schedule that would be circled. It's just not like that any more, ya know? I don't think getting a win brings the same feeling of satisfaction to either fan base that it used to.

[DesignatedT]

I miss that sense of rivalry. Mavs/Spurs games used to be the games on the schedule that would be circled. It's just not like that any more, ya know? I don't think getting a win brings the same feeling of satisfaction to either fan base that it used to.

yes, it will always be a rivalry but it will never be back to how it was in 06. that was just straight up crazy.

[easy7]

Don't be buttsore, he is probably just adding in the choke factor. And since they don't choke against SA, that is the only team he says they will win against. :hat

[weebo]

Best rebounding team in the league over the last 20 games, improved defense, offense still running smoothly. Suns are in a great 18-game stretch, having gone 14-4 with a huge point differential.

The Suns could beat the Mavs only if they play at their highest level.

Well no shit dumbass. Anyone can beat anyone if they play at their "highest level."

[HarlemHeat37]

Hollinger is trolling the shit out of Mavs fans..

[mavsfan1000]

Hollinger is trolling the shit out of Mavs fans..
Who thought an analyst would be mavs fans biggest troll.

[ezau]

:lol try beating a LeBron-less Cavs, then talk about beating the Mavs. boom roasted.

I hate to say this, but until the Mavs learn to not choke in the playoffs, I have a hard time believing that they can win a championship.

[Texas Chili Dog]

:lol @ Hollinger.

[Ghazi]

If the Mavs are judged by what happened 3 years ago when the Warriors hit a few fluke shots and 4 years ago when the refs fucked us, I guess we should still consider the Spurs championship contenders?

Wait, no the fuck we shouldn't

lol 4-1

[Xylus]

Well no shit dumbass. Anyone can beat anyone if they play at their "highest level."

No.

[ezau]

If the Mavs are judged by what happened 3 years ago when the Warriors hit a few fluke shots and 4 years ago when the refs fucked us, I guess we should still consider the Spurs championship contenders?

Wait, no the fuck we shouldn't

lol 4-1

Has it all come down to this Mavs fan? You need to win this :lobt: before talking smack. Sure you guys are on a tear right now, but we all know what the Mavs do during the playoffs.

lol no rings

[Ghazi]

Has it all come down to this Mavs fan? You need to win this :lobt: before talking smack. Sure you guys are on a tear right now, but we all know what the Mavs do during the playoffs.

lol no rings

SO I guess a good predictor of how the Mavs fare in the playoffs this year is what happened in the playoffs 3-4 years ago with an entirely different roster.

Sound logic.

4-1 lol

[DesignatedT]

If the Mavs are judged by what happened 3 years ago when the Warriors hit a few fluke shots and 4 years ago when the refs fucked us, I guess we should still consider the Spurs championship contenders?

Wait, no the fuck we shouldn't

lol 4-1

fluke shots? they were blowing you out in your own building.. the series didnt even go 7 games against an 8 seed lmao.

[ElNono]

In which game of the first round are the Mavs raising the SW division championship banner? Anybody know?

[ezau]

SO I guess a good predictor of how the Mavs fare in the playoffs this year is what happened in the playoffs 3-4 years ago with an entirely different roster.

Sound logic.

4-1 lol

losing to an 8th seed
choking a 2-0 lead against a team that you're supposed to beat

It's not rocket science buddy. The Mavs have a resume that has "choke" written all over it. Unless you start doing some nasty shit in the playoffs, you can't expect people to take you seriously.

And oh, did you get banner by beating the Spurs 4-1? Coz I'm sure as hell the Spurs did when they got all of these :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[Findog]

If the Mavs are judged by what happened 3 years ago when the Warriors hit a few fluke shots and 4 years ago when the refs fucked us, I guess we should still consider the Spurs championship contenders?

Wait, no the fuck we shouldn't

lol 4-1

:lol

[Findog]

Spurs fans need to stick to topics they're experts on, like which fast-food restaurants are open 24 hours and who serves breakfast all day, and leave the basketball talk to the grownups.

[badfish22]

I don't blame Spurfan for being butthurt. Their dynasty is over. They might not be relevant again for a looooong time.

[ElNono]

Spurs fans need to stick to topics they're experts on, like which fast-food restaurants are open 24 hours and who serves breakfast all day, and leave the basketball talk to the grownups.

Mavfan should stick to topics they're experts on, like who can win more games in the regular season and how to win a regular season MVP trophy then proceed to lose to an 8th seed, and leave the championship talk to fans whose teams know what it takes to win it all.

[mavs>spurs2]

leave the championship talk to fans whose teams know what it takes to win it all.

not the spurs tbh

[Spurfan]

losing to an 8th seed
choking a 2-0 lead against a team that you're supposed to beat

It's not rocket science buddy. The Mavs have a resume that has "choke" written all over it. Unless you start doing some nasty shit in the playoffs, you can't expect people to take you seriously.

And oh, did you get banner by beating the Spurs 4-1? Coz I'm sure as hell the Spurs did when they got all of these :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:


+1 All you gotta say is 4 rings, faggot even if you're getting owned in an argument.


4 rings, faggot

[ElNono]

not the spurs tbh

We have 4 banners hanging from the rafters at the AT&T center... so we definitely know what it takes to win it all. We certainly also know our team most likely doesn't have it this season. Just like every Dallas season pretty much.

[dirk4mvp]

We have 4 banners hanging from the rafters at the AT&T center... so we definitely know what it takes to win it all. We certainly also know our team most likely doesn't have it this season. Just like every Dallas season pretty much.

Who is we? What number were you?

[Goran Dragic]

Mavfan should stick to topics they're experts on, like who can win more games in the regular season and how to win a regular season MVP trophy then proceed to lose to an 8th seed, and leave the championship talk to fans whose teams know what it takes to win it all.


Don't get so defensive. No one is trying to lecture you on Nazi harboring. You and DAF have that shit covered :tu

[ElNono]

Who is we? What number were you?

I'm really sorry that you don't identify with your team. I do.

[badfish22]

We certainly also know our team most likely doesn't have it this season.

They won't have it again for a looooong time, tbh.

[Goran Dragic]

I'm really sorry that you don't identify with your team. I do.


Funny you didn't identify with them before they had Manu.

[dirk4mvp]

I'm really sorry that you don't identify with your team. I do.

If you weren't so fat, I'd have an easier time thinking you were on the team.

[ElNono]

Don't get so defensive. No one is trying to lecture you on Nazi harboring. You and DAF have that shit covered :tu

A Mav troll pretending to be a yugoslav is going to talk to me about Nazis... :lmao

Please, the only person getting defensive here is you, that instead of addressing my post, attacks me personally.

I'm just reminding everyone what the truth is. Don't get so butthurt.

[Goran Dragic]

They won't have it again for a looooong time, tbh.



Don't worry for him. Once Manu signs with the Lakers, he'll be "identifying" with the Lakers.

[DesignatedT]

lmao mavs fans. once the basketball talk starts to get chippy they start bringing up fast food restaurants and obesity.... shows how much of a complete failure your team has been this past decade.... all those regular season wins and no hardware...

[Findog]

Mavfan should stick to topics they're experts on, like who can win more games in the regular season and how to win a regular season MVP trophy then proceed to lose to an 8th seed, and leave the championship talk to fans whose teams know what it takes to win it all.

So you're a member of the Spurs organization that played an integral role in their four championships? Were you a scout? A front-office executive? A member of the coaching staff? What special expertise do you bring to this discussion?

BTW, Taco Cabana is running a buy one taco dinner, get one free taco dinner special right now:

http://www.tacocabana.com/eclub/

http://playavistacarwash.com/Images/Tacos.jpg

[ElNono]

If you weren't so fat, I'd have an easier time thinking you were on the team.

I'm not fat at all. Don't be all butthurt. Not my fault your team sucks season after season.

[mavs>spurs2]

A Mav troll pretending to be a yugoslav is going to talk to me about Nazis... :lmao

Please, the only person getting defensive here is you, that instead of addressing my post, attacks me personally.

I'm just reminding everyone what the truth is. Don't get so butthurt.

and i'm just here to keep you up to date

its 2010, and the mavs have an outside shot at winning it all this year, spurs have an outside shot at the 7th seed

[Goran Dragic]

A Mav troll pretending to be a yugoslav is going to talk to me about Nazis... :lmao



I'm Slovenian not Yugoslavian, notice how it says I'm Slovenia's GOAT?

[dirk4mvp]

I'm not fat at all. Don't be all butthurt. Not my fault your team sucks season after season.

They're Mark Cuban's team.

lol bandwagon spurs fan

lol we

lol your team

[ElNono]

So you're a member of the Spurs organization that played an integral role in their four championships? Were you a scout? A front-office executive? A member of the coaching staff? What special expertise do you bring to this discussion?

BTW, Taco Cabana is running a buy one taco dinner, get one free taco dinner special right now:


I'm a fan that attended games. No different than you. Yet you're supposed to have an opinion and I'm not?

BTW, there's no Taco Cabana where I live.

[Findog]

lmao mavs fans. once the basketball talk starts to get chippy they start bringing up fast food restaurants and obesity.... shows how much of a complete failure your team has been this past decade.... all those regular season wins and no hardware...

What chippy rhetoric? As long as we get the Spurs in the first round, then there's no worry about advancing to the second round for an opportunity to avenge our loss to Denver last year.

And yeah, the Mavs have been no better than the Bobcats and Grizzlies for the past 10 years. You might want to dial back on the hyperbole a bit.

[Goran Dragic]

I'm a fan that attended games.



You weren't attending games prior to Manu.

[Findog]

I'm not fat at all. Don't be all butthurt. Not my fault your team sucks season after season.

10 straight years of 50+ wins, and sent your team fishing twice. Yeah, that's sucking :lol

[DesignatedT]

make sense nobody wants to associate themselves with a loser... i wouldnt want to associate my name with the mavericks either

[Rogue]

I'm really sorry that you don't identify with your team. I do.
Mavs weren't fucked in the first round playoffs last season so there was basically no such biological sample for identification IMHO.

[ElNono]

I'm Slovenian not Yugoslavian, notice how it says I'm Slovenia's GOAT?

Goran Dragić (born May 6, 1986 in Ljubljana, SR Slovenia, SFR Yugoslavia)

From your own Wikipedia entry...

[ElNono]

You weren't attending games prior to Manu.

Sure I was.

[Spurfan]

lmao mavs fans. once the basketball talk starts to get chippy they start bringing up fast food restaurants and obesity.... shows how much of a complete failure your team has been this past decade.... all those regular season wins and no hardware...


Exactly, we're so creative to regurgitate 4 rings, faggot and they have no way to counter it. It must suck for them they can't say 4 rings, faggot just as easily as we can.

[DesignatedT]

What chippy rhetoric? As long as we get the Spurs in the first round, then there's no worry about advancing to the second round for an opportunity to avenge our loss to Denver last year.

And yeah, the Mavs have been no better than the Bobcats and Grizzlies for the past 10 years. You might want to dial back on the hyperbole a bit.

well all 3 of you have 1 thing in common. no :lobt:

[Goran Dragic]

Sure I was.


:lmao

[Findog]

I'm a fan that attended games. No different than you. Yet you're supposed to have an opinion and I'm not?

In so many words, you implied that being a Spurs fan gave you greater expertise than a typical Mavs fan who has never rooted for a championship team. By that logic, Lakers and Celtics fans know more hoops than anybody else.


BTW, there's no Taco Cabana where I live.

Well, that sucks for you, because you're really missing out.

http://www.cabezadecochino.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tacocabanafood.jpg

[ElNono]

They're Mark Cuban's team.
lol bandwagon spurs fan
lol we
lol your team

lol "Mark Cuban's team" sucks

[ElNono]

In so many words, you implied that being a Spurs fan gave you greater expertise than a typical Mavs fan who has never rooted for a championship team. By that logic, Lakers and Celtics fans know more hoops than anybody else.

They probably do.


Well, that sucks for you, because you're really missing out.

I don't think I am. But feel free to feast in calories if that's your thing.

[Goran Dragic]

lol "Mark Cuban's team" sucks


Mark Cuban's team has won more games than the team you own (and I know that because you don't own an NBA team).

[Rogue]

make sense nobody wants to associate themselves with a loser... i wouldnt want to associate my name with the mavericks either
But you're still pretty glad to associate your name with the name of a ponce who lives off a prostitute's incomes. this pseud actually knows very little about the game but pretends like he knows everything, what an arsehole.

[Findog]

well all 3 of you have 1 thing in common. no :lobt:

So? What's your point? What greater insight does rooting for a former champion whose time has come and gone give you?

[dirk4mvp]

lol "Mark Cuban's team" sucks

At least I'm not some delusional fuckstick who thinks they're actually a part of the team they root for.

lmao we

[DesignatedT]

so were supposed to say it like this everytime..

damn good game tonight... peter holts spurs are taking on mark cubans mavericks..

[ElNono]

Mavs weren't fucked in the first round playoffs last season so there was basically no such biological sample for identification IMHO.

Mavs get fucked every playoffs, so there's an ample collection of biological samples for identification.

[Findog]

They probably do.



El Nono: "Lakers fans are the most knowledgeable basketball fans around."

:tu great take

[Goran Dragic]

ElNono how many NBA championships have you personally won? All this question requires as a response is a number. Just give the # of NBA championships you've won.

[Rogue]

Goran Dragić (born May 6, 1986 in Ljubljana, SR Slovenia, SFR Yugoslavia)

From your own Wikipedia entry...
how did you make the accent on the letter "c"? it's always a cedilla for "c" IMHO, like "ç".

[ElNono]

Mark Cuban's team has won more games than the team you own (and I know that because you don't own an NBA team).

There's no need to get defensive. Mark looks like a cool guy, and it's probably not his fault that his team is constant failure season after season. After all, players play the game.

[DesignatedT]

So? What's your point? What greater insight does rooting for a former champion whose time has come and gone give you?

maybe one day you will understand...

[ElNono]

ElNono how many NBA championships have you personally won? All this question requires as a response is a number. Just give the # of NBA championships you've won.

Irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, which is the Mavs constant suckitude in the playoffs.

[Spurfan]

ElNono how many NBA championships have you personally won? All this question requires as a response is a number. Just give the # of NBA championships you've won.


He's a Spurs fan. We've all won 4 championships. It was all of us who made Tim Duncan's shots go in. 4 rings, faggot.

[ElNono]

El Nono: "Lakers fans are the most knowledgeable basketball fans around."

:tu great take

You said that, I didn't. I did say they do know what it takes to win it all.

[Goran Dragic]

Irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, which is the Mavs constant suckitude in the playoffs.


It's relevant because you talked about it like you've accomplished something in the playoffs, what have the Mavs not done in the playoffs that you have?

[Goran Dragic]

After all, players play the game.


Meaning the fans have nothing to do with it. Lol self-ownage.

[Findog]

You said that, I didn't. I did say they do know what it takes to win it all.

Anybody who watches the NBA playoffs on a regular basis knows what differentiates title teams from those who fall short. Following a particular championship team doesn't give you some sort of exclusive insider information.

[ElNono]

At least I'm some delusional fuckstick who thinks they're actually a part of the team they root for.

lmao we

You said it.

[Rogue]

There's no need to get defensive. Mark looks like a cool guy, and it's probably not his fault that his team is constant failure season after season. After all, players play the game.
how would you evaluate a team that constantly gets thrashed by this failure season after season? the failure that Skunks haven't beaten in a playoff series for these so many years.

[ElNono]

It's relevant because you talked about it like you've accomplished something in the playoffs, what have the Mavs not done in the playoffs that you have?

Quote where I said I accomplished something in the playoffs? You can definitely quote me where I said the team you root for always fails in the playoffs.

[Goran Dragic]

Anybody who watches the NBA playoffs on a regular basis knows what differentiates title teams from those who fall short. Following a particular championship team doesn't give you some sort of exclusive insider information.



I guess seeing things from their fat beaner goggles enlightens them in some way. Funny, I always thought anyone watching the same game as someone else gets the same thing from it.


PS - Sorry ElNono, but you were watching the game just like we were. You weren't on the court sucking Manu's Nazi loving cock, that was after the game.

[ElNono]

Meaning the fans have nothing to do with it. Lol self-ownage.

Quote where I said fans play the games? I'm not blaming you or any other Mav fan here for constantly failing to win a championship season after season.

[Goran Dragic]

Quote where I said I accomplished something in the playoffs?


If you admit you haven't accomplished shit in the playoffs, why is it you criticize Mavs fans when they've accomplished just as much as you have?

[ElNono]

Anybody who watches the NBA playoffs on a regular basis knows what differentiates title teams from those who fall short. Following a particular championship team doesn't give you some sort of exclusive insider information.

Apparently not anybody, considering the posts you've been making lately.

[DesignatedT]

I guess seeing things from their fat beaner goggles enlightens them in some way. Funny, I always thought anyone watching the same game as someone else gets the same thing from it.


PS - Sorry ElNono, but you were watching the game just like we were. You weren't on the court sucking Manu's Nazi loving cock, that was after the game.

bro he has already admitted like 4 seperate times that he is just a fan and watches the game like everyone else.

come up with something else dipshit

[Goran Dragic]

Quote where I said fans play the games?


You referred to the team as we, meaning you thought you were on the team. That's what it means to refer to something in 1st person, although Nazis might have different grammar rules.

[mavs>spurs2]

findog, you think you could seriously change your sig? like an honest favor from mav fan to mav fan. i'm not able to read your posts because i have to scroll past them really quick and it makes me sick every time.

[Findog]

Apparently not anybody, considering the posts you've been making lately.


What opinions do you take issue with?

[Goran Dragic]

bro he has already admitted like 4 seperate times that he is just a fan and watches the game like everyone else.

come up with something else dipshit



Sooooo why is it he brags about rings he had nothing to do with winning?

[ElNono]

If you admit you haven't accomplished shit in the playoffs, why is it you criticize Mavs fans when they've accomplished just as much as you have?

You keep deflecting the topic. I didn't criticize any Mavs fans.
Please stop, and simply concede that the team you root for has simply never been good enough to win it all.

[DesignatedT]

findog, you think you could seriously change your sig? like an honest favor from mav fan to mav fan. i'm not able to read your posts because i have to scroll past them really quick and it makes me sick every time.

:lol

[Rogue]

I guess seeing things from their fat beaner goggles enlightens them in some way. Funny, I always thought anyone watching the same game as someone else gets the same thing from it.


PS - Sorry ElNono, but you were watching the game just like we were. You weren't on the court sucking Manu's Nazi loving cock, that was after the game.
indeed Elnono attends almost every Spurs game togged up in a Skunk gown acting as their mascot.

[ElNono]

You referred to the team as we, meaning you thought you were on the team.

No, I said I identify with the team. You're excused seeing that English is not your language, being Yugoslavian and all.

[Goran Dragic]

You keep deflecting the topic. I didn't criticize any Mavs fans.
Please stop, and simply concede that the team you root for has simply never been good enough to win it all.


I have a brother's sisters cousin's uncle from the virgin islands. Now I'm a Tim Duncan fan, which makes me a life long Spurs fan (like how you became a Spurs fan). So yes my team has been good enough.


4 rings, faggot.

[ElNono]

What opinions do you take issue with?

Already stated in it's proper thread.

[mavs>spurs2]

No, I said I identify with the team. You're excused seeing that English is not your language, being Yugoslavian and all.

being a fan of a certain team doesn't offer you any insight that fans of other teams don't have access to. that's like me saying i automatically >> you in any argument because I played a year of college ball. fail.

[Findog]

Sooooo why is it he brags about rings he had nothing to do with winning?

I don't care if a fan brags about his team winning titles, I'd do the same. It's just silly to act as if those titles grants you some kind of intellectual cred when it comes to bball knowledge.

[Goran Dragic]

No, I said I identify with the team.



That was a cop out. Prior to that, you referred to the team as "we". In English (not your Nazi loving language), referring to something as we means you're a part of it. You have no connection to the Spurs.

[Findog]

Already stated in it's proper thread.

You can post on things that are peripheral to the topic. If you want to take a cheap shot, back it up.

[Findog]

findog, you think you could seriously change your sig? like an honest favor from mav fan to mav fan. i'm not able to read your posts because i have to scroll past them really quick and it makes me sick every time.

I'll think about it.

[ElNono]

I have a brother's sisters cousin's uncle from the virgin islands. Now I'm a Tim Duncan fan, which makes me a life long Spurs fan (like how you became a Spurs fan). So yes my team has been good enough.
4 rings, faggot.

If you want to be a bandwagon fan, go right ahead.

[Goran Dragic]

If you want to be a bandwagon fan, go right ahead.


Argentinean Spurfan calling someone else bandwagon

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao

[mavs>spurs2]

I'll think about it.

thanks, im honestly grateful

[Rogue]

Anybody who watches the NBA playoffs on a regular basis knows what differentiates title teams from those who fall short. Following a particular championship team doesn't give you some sort of exclusive insider information.
nothing differentiate one contender from the rest except the amount of cash used to bribe those venal fucks. You like every pompous prissy Mavs officials still obstinately believe that real power wins championship, which used to be the rule but hasn't been so for almost a decade and a half.

[ElNono]

You can post on things that are peripheral to the topic. If you want to take a cheap shot, back it up.

What is there to back up? History is in the books. Dallas simply doesn't have a team capable of winning it all. And I can honestly say the same about San Antonio this season.

[Goran Dragic]

What is there to back up? History is in the books. Dallas simply doesn't have a team capable of winning it all. And I can honestly say the same about San Antonio this season.


Having a team capable of winning it all and having a team win it all are two different things. You're retarded if you think in 2006 and 2007 the Mavs didn't have a team capable of winning it all.

[mavs>spurs2]

Dallas simply doesn't have a team capable of winning it all.

Do you seriously believe that? Not capable, as in not even an outside chance?

[ElNono]

That was a cop out. Prior to that, you referred to the team as "we". In English (not your Nazi loving language), referring to something as we means you're a part of it. You have no connection to the Spurs.

There's no cop out. Everybody except you understood me well.
Now, back to the topic, why are you so defensive when some fan of another team brings up the fact that your team has been historically full of fail?

[Rogue]

I don't care if a fan brags about his team winning titles, I'd do the same. It's just silly to act as if those titles grants you some kind of intellectual cred when it comes to bball knowledge.
ElNono ain't the only spur fan bragging about their 4 faggots IMHO. Indeed there're far more pseuds who regard themselves as highly as pros but often don't know any more than we do.

[Findog]

What is there to back up? History is in the books. Dallas simply doesn't have a team capable of winning it all. And I can honestly say the same about San Antonio this season.

Not in years past, and most likely not this year either, but they have a chance. Now what kind of expertise does being a fan of the Spurs grant you? Care to back that up?

[ElNono]

Do you seriously believe that? Not capable, as in not even an outside chance?

No chance.

[ElNono]

Having a team capable of winning it all and having a team win it all are two different things. You're retarded if you think in 2006 and 2007 the Mavs didn't have a team capable of winning it all.

Did they win?

[Goran Dragic]

There's no cop out. Everybody except you understood me well.
Now, back to the topic, why are you so defensive when some fan of another team brings up the fact that your team has been historically full of fail?


I'm not defensive. I find this thread hilarious. particularly because your entire argument is based off me being a "mavs fan".

[Findog]

No chance.

Well, in that case, only Cleveland and LA have "a chance" at winning a title. The Denver Nuggets, Orlando Magic and Dallas Mavericks would beg to differ.

[Goran Dragic]

Did they win?



Damn you Nazi lovers are so simple minded. Were the 2006 Mavs not capable of winning a title? It's a simple question. Dirk is German, so if you say yes, the Nazis won't gas you. Yes or no. Were the 2006 Mavs capable of winning a title?

[ElNono]

Not in years past, and most likely not this year either, but they have a chance. Now what kind of expertise does being a fan of the Spurs grant you? Care to back that up?

I said the conditions that would be necessary, such as a massive chain of injuries. But then again, not just the Mavs but a bunch of other teams would have a chance (not sure about MY team particularly, but certainly a team like Utah).

And the only expertise I claim is that I've seen 4 full runs, and this Mavs team is still lacking a true leader.

[Findog]

Damn you Nazi lovers are so simple minded. Were the 2006 Mavs not capable of winning a title? It's a simple question. Dirk is German, so if you say yes, the Nazis won't gas you. Yes or no. Were the 2006 Mavs capable of winning a title?

Considering they came within inches of doing so, I'd say yes. To say that they weren't would be like saying the 2004 Spurs weren't capable of winning a title, because they would've won their series against LA and gone on to the Finals if Fisher hadn't made such a miracle shot.

[ElNono]

Damn you Nazi lovers are so simple minded. Were the 2006 Mavs not capable of winning a title? It's a simple question. Dirk is German, so if you say yes, the Nazis won't gas you. Yes or no. Were the 2006 Mavs capable of winning a title?

No.

[ElNono]

Considering they came within inches of doing so, I'd say yes. To say that they weren't would be like saying the 2004 Spurs weren't capable of winning a title, because they would've won their series against LA and gone on to the Finals if Fisher hadn't made such a miracle shot.

7 game series are not merely determined by a miracle shot. The 2004 Spurs were not better than the 2004 Lakers.

[Findog]

And the only expertise I claim is that I've seen 4 full runs, and this Mavs team is still lacking a true leader.

If the Mavs lose to Denver, LA or Cleveland, it will be because those teams were better, not some intangible "leader" bullshit.

[ElNono]

I'm not defensive. I find this thread hilarious. particularly because your entire argument is based off me being a "mavs fan".

Actually, my entire argument is me being a Spurs fan. But you've been missing the point all along.

[Goran Dragic]

No.



Then you're an idiot. lol brainwashed by Hitler.

[Findog]

7 game series are not merely determined by a miracle shot. The 2004 Spurs were not better than the 2004 Lakers.

They were the same caliber of team. If Fisher doesn't make that shot, Game 7 is in San Antonio, a game the Spurs were certainly CAPABLE of winning. We don't know for 100% certain how that series would've turned out if Fisher missed, but we do know that San Antonio was CAPABLE of winning that series and a title that year.

[ElNono]

If the Mavs lose to Denver, LA or Cleveland, it will be because those teams were better, not some intangible "leader" bullshit.

That's why you don't know what it takes to win a championship. Intangibles make your team better.

[Findog]

Actually, my entire argument is me being a Spurs fan.

And what sort of intellectual ability does that grant you?

[Goran Dragic]

7 game series are not merely determined by a miracle shot. The 2004 Spurs were not better than the 2004 Lakers.



So is that why Fisher's shot went in? Because the Spurs were not capable of winning a title?

[ElNono]

They were the same caliber of team. If Fisher doesn't make that shot, Game 7 is in San Antonio, a game the Spurs were certainly CAPABLE of winning. We don't know for 100% certain how that series would've turned out if Fisher missed, but we do know that San Antonio was CAPABLE of winning that series and a title that year.

That series was defined by our inability to make 3 pointers. Which pretty much has decided every series between the Spurs and Lakers since Jackson coached the Lakers.

[Goran Dragic]

And what sort of intellectual ability does that grant you?


Since he watched them win 4 rings (even though I watched the 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007 finals as well) he somehow knows more.

[Rogue]

Well, in that case, only Cleveland and LA have "a chance" at winning a title. The Denver Nuggets, Orlando Magic and Dallas Mavericks would beg to differ.
you would be nuts if you think the Mavs have a decent chance this season. Maybe they will get their chance in 2-3 season but it ain't coming so soon as this season IMHO. Those faggots are ecstatically pandered to their mirage of being "stacked", totally getting themselves blinded to the truth that they ain't that good as they think. Your backcourt is now sturdy and deep as well as the C, but you have no cover for Dirk which may ineluctably force him to play 43+ mins a game come playoffs, once Dirk is raddled or injured the Mavs are fatefully done.

[ElNono]

So is that why Fisher's shot went in? Because the Spurs were not capable of winning a title?

We lost the series in game 6. We had a chance after that shot. They were simply the better team.

[Texas Chili Dog]

Well this thread sure has blossomed since I saw it last.

[Goran Dragic]

No one is saying they have a "decent" chance. The question is whether or not they have a chance. According ElNazi, the Mavs have never been capable of winning a title.

[ElNono]

And what sort of intellectual ability does that grant you?

To recognize when a team is championship caliber.

[ElNono]

No one is saying they have a "decent" chance. The question is whether or not they have a chance. According ElNazi, the Mavs have never been capable of winning a title.

They haven't. Do you agree?

[Findog]

That's why you don't know what it takes to win a championship. Intangibles make your team better.

Intangibles are abstract qualities that can't be measured, which means we have no way of determining which teams have sufficient quantities of things like leadership, heart, determination and unselfishness and which teams don't. You can't tell me which teams possess "intangibles" in sufficient quantities and which teams don't.

[Goran Dragic]

They haven't. Do you agree?



No, being capable of winning a title and winning a title are two different things.

[Goran Dragic]

To recognize when a team is championship caliber.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao


Were the Nazis championship caliber when your country gave them a safe haven?

[ElNono]

Intangibles are abstract qualities that can't be measured, which means we have no way of determining which teams have sufficient quantities of things like leadership, heart, determination and unselfishness and which teams don't. You can't tell me which teams possess "intangibles" in sufficient quantities and which teams don't.

Sure I can. Dallas doesn't have it. Lakers do. Denver, since they signed Chauncey do. Orlando doesn't, but they make up for it with Howard being a beast. Same for Cleveland and Lebron.

[Findog]

That series was defined by our inability to make 3 pointers. Which pretty much has decided every series between the Spurs and Lakers since Jackson coached the Lakers.

The Spurs were one miracle shot from having a Game 7 at home. They were a miracle shot away from being 3-0 at home over the Lakers in that series. So you're telling me that they weren't CAPABLE of winning a home game against the Lakers?

[Rogue]

We lost the series in game 6. We had a chance after that shot. They were simply the better team.
Every team has a chance for championship in your opinion. any given team just has to outplay 29 other better teams at most.

[Findog]

Sure I can. Dallas doesn't have it. Lakers do. Denver, since they signed Chauncey do. Orlando doesn't, but they make up for it with Howard being a beast. Same for Cleveland and Lebron.

Prove it. How much of "it" do you need? And when it comes to things like being a late-game manager, basketball IQ, and an alpha dog personality, there's nothing that Chauncey Billups has that Jason Kidd doesn't. Whether that means Denver or Dallas will win a title this season, that has yet to be determined.

[ElNono]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

Were the Nazis championship caliber when your country gave them a safe haven?

I wouldn't know. I was born after World War II.
How about you? Was Tito championship caliber when he was gassing your family?

[Goran Dragic]

Prove it. How much of "it" do you need?


Spurfan is the only group who knows what "it" is. We wouldn't understand, we never watched a group of people we've never met win a ring!

[ElNono]

The Spurs were one miracle shot from having a Game 7 at home. They were a miracle shot away from being 3-0 at home over the Lakers in that series. So you're telling me that they weren't CAPABLE of winning a home game against the Lakers?

Boxscore says we were not capable.

[mavs>spurs2]

Spurfan is the only group who knows what "it" is. We wouldn't understand, we never watched a group of people we've never met win a ring!

:lmao wait a minute, so if i was a part of a state championship basketball team, does that mean i have "it?"

[Rogue]

Sure I can. Dallas doesn't have it. Lakers do. Denver, since they signed Chauncey do. Orlando doesn't, but they make up for it with Howard being a beast. Same for Cleveland and Lebron.
you think Den, Orlando, Cleveland are all better teams than another team that won their 13 past games in a row? what an arsehole's point of view, you sissy vulva licker you

[mavs>spurs2]

i just had a mothafuckin epiphany, i finally got IT!!!!

[Findog]

Boxscore says we were not capable.

Considering the Spurs won two games at home in that series, I think we can easily assume that they were CAPABLE of winning a Game 7 at home against the Lakers. We can't state with 100% certainty that they would've done so, but they certainly were CAPABLE.

[ElNono]

Prove it. How much of "it" do you need? And when it comes to things like being a late-game manager, basketball IQ, and an alpha dog personality, there's nothing that Chauncey Billups has that Jason Kidd doesn't. Whether that means Denver or Dallas will win a title this season, that has yet to be determined.

I already listed the teams, who has it and who doesn't.
Kidd is not the alpha dog of the Mavs. You should know after getting kicked out by NO and Denver.

[Goran Dragic]

:lmao wait a minute, so if i was a part of a state championship basketball team, does that mean i have "it?"


Na, you have to watch people you've never met win an NBA championship. ElNazi knows more about basketball than Karl Malone. Karl Malone never watched his team win a ring.

[Findog]

:lmao wait a minute, so if i was a part of a state championship basketball team, does that mean i have "it?"

Even though I watch the NBA Finals every year, I don't know what "it" is.

[dirk4mvp]

Even though I watch the NBA Finals every year, I don't know what "it" is.

You have to be a fan of either of the teams participating to get "it", imho.

[ElNono]

Considering the Spurs won two games at home in that series, I think we can easily assume that they were CAPABLE of winning a Game 7 at home against the Lakers. We can't state with 100% certainty that they would've done so, but they certainly were CAPABLE.

There was no game 7. The series was 6 games. Lakers won 4 because they were the better team. We had the intangibles that season, we didn't have the personnel to foil the Lakers gameplan.

[Goran Dragic]

Even though I watch the NBA Finals every year, I don't know what "it" is.


Yeah me too, I'm not watching "it" right. My TV just doesn't have that "it" factor.

[ElNono]

you think Den, Orlando, Cleveland are all better teams than another team that won their 13 past games in a row? what an arsehole's point of view, you sissy vulva licker you

Don't get blinded by the regular season. That's number one Mavfan mistake.

[Goran Dragic]

You have to be a fan of either of the teams participating to get "it", imho.



No you have to be a fan of the winning team. Mavfan doesn't have "it" after they watched the Heat win.

[Findog]

I already listed the teams, who has it and who doesn't.

Prove it. Tell us how you determined who has "it" and who doesn't. Give us your reasoning instead of appeals to authority and stating "Such and Such is X because Such and Such is X."



Kidd is not the alpha dog of the Mavs. You should know after getting kicked out by NO and Denver


The Mavs lost to the Hornets and Nuggets because those teams were better, not because the Hornets and Nuggets had "it" and the Mavs didn't.

[ElNono]

Even though I watch the NBA Finals every year, I don't know what "it" is.

Exactly. That's why you think your team can win it all.

[mavs>spurs2]

Elnono's mom said I have "it" tbh she said i got that good good IMHO

[Goran Dragic]

Don't get blinded by the regular season. That's number one Mavfan mistake.


The force is not strong in Mavfan. The dark side blinds them with things like the regular season. Use the force, Mavfan!

[Findog]

There was no game 7. The series was 6 games. Lakers won 4 because they were the better team. We had the intangibles that season, we didn't have the personnel to foil the Lakers gameplan.

So the Spurs lost Game 5 on a miracle shot and were .04 seconds away from having a Game 7 at home, a game you say that they were not CAPABLE of winning.

Got it. :tu

[Findog]

Exactly. That's why you think your team can win it all.

My team can certainly win a title this year. It's within the realm of possibility. But a much stronger possibility is that the Lakers or Cavs will win a championship.

[Goran Dragic]

So the Spurs lost Game 5 on a miracle shot and were .04 seconds away from having a Game 7 at home, a game you say that they were not CAPABLE of winning.

Got it. :tu



I must admit ElNazi is willing to say a lot of retarded shit to keep the "Spurfan knows more" argument going.

[Rogue]

Prove it. How much of "it" do you need? And when it comes to things like being a late-game manager, basketball IQ, and an alpha dog personality, there's nothing that Chauncey Billups has that Jason Kidd doesn't. Whether that means Denver or Dallas will win a title this season, that has yet to be determined.
no one is prophetic enough to give an accurate prediction of the championship winner anyway. but still you are just trying to be a clot to credit JK this much IMHO. JK used to be miles better than the current prime version of Chauncy but I'm pretty sure Kidd has faltered a lot, age has vitiated him so badly it's now quite an onerous job to list Kidd parallel to Billups IMHO. Billups is clearly the better player between Kidd and himself and probably he's one of the handful of best PGs around the whole league.

[ElNono]

Prove it. Tell us how you determined who has "it" and who doesn't. Give us your reasoning instead of appeals to authority and stating "Such and such is X because such and such is X."

I gave you examples. I can give you more.


The Mavs lost to the Hornets and Nuggets because those teams were better, not because the Hornets and Nuggets had "it" and the Mavs didn't.

Well, no. We were discussing Kidd being the alpha male in your team. Obviously, the Hornets didn't win it all, and they certainly doesn't have the intangibles. Denver did, but the Lakers did too and they were simply the better team.

[Goran Dragic]

Well, no. We were discussing Kidd being the alpha male in your team. Obviously, the Hornets didn't win it all, and they certainly doesn't have the intangibles. Denver did, but the Lakers did too and they were simply the better team.


:lmao what is the "it" Denver had in 2009 that the Mavs didn't have in 2006?

[Findog]

no one is prophetic enough to give an accurate prediction of the championship winner anyway. but still you are just trying to be a clot to credit JK this much IMHO. JK used to be miles better than the current prime version of Chauncy but I'm pretty sure Kidd has faltered a lot, age has vitiated him so badly it's now quite an onerous job to list Kidd parallel to Billups IMHO. Billups is clearly the better player between Kidd and himself and probably he's one of the handful of best PGs around the whole league.

Billups is slightly better than Kidd, but not in the areas of game management, basketball IQ, veteran savvy and alpha dog temperament. I'd say neither player has a discernable edge in those categories.

[ElNono]

So the Spurs lost Game 5 on a miracle shot and were .04 seconds away from having a Game 7 at home, a game you say that they were not CAPABLE of winning.

Got it. :tu

No, I didn't say that at all. But if that's how you want to interpret it, then go ahead.

[Goran Dragic]

Billups is slightly better than Kidd, but not in the areas of game management, basketball IQ, veteran savvy and alpha dog temperament. I'd say neither player has a discernable edge in those categories.



You obviously don't know what "it" is.

[ElNono]

:lmao what is the "it" Denver had in 2009 that the Mavs didn't have in 2006?

A leader.

[ElNono]

My team can certainly win a title this year. It's within the realm of possibility. But a much stronger possibility is that the Lakers or Cavs will win a championship.

As I said before, barring major injuries, no, they have no chance.

[Goran Dragic]

A leader.


Yeah that "leader" really led them against LA. Billups is no more of a leader than Dirk is.

[ElNono]

You obviously don't know what "it" is.

He already said as much. Please keep up.

[Findog]

I gave you examples. I can give you more.



You listed which teams had "it" and which teams didn't. But you certainly didn't back up your assertions with any evidence.



Well, no. We were discussing Kidd being the alpha male in your team. Obviously, the Hornets didn't win it all, and they certainly doesn't have the intangibles. Denver did, but the Lakers did too and they were simply the better team.

So what did Denver have in 2009 that the Mavericks didn't have in 2006? The Mavericks had a very competitive Finals where the outcome of the series would've been changed by one or two plays. Denver got taken apart at home in Game 6 by the eventual champs.

[ElNono]

Yeah that "leader" really led them against LA. Billups is no more of a leader than Dirk is.

That's why you're unaware that your team can't win it all.

[Findog]

No, I didn't say that at all. But if that's how you want to interpret it, then go ahead.

That's the logical conclusion to your argument. If Fisher doesn't make what is a extremely difficult shot, a shot he would probably miss 9 times out of 10, then the Spurs get a Game 7 at home. But according to you,the Lakers were better and the Spurs weren't CAPABLE of winning such a game.

[Goran Dragic]

That's why you're unaware that your team can't win it all.


God damn you're dumb. I wouldn't expect anything more from someone who supports harboring Nazis.

[Findog]

That's why you're unaware that your team can't win it all.

What intangible leadership qualities does Billups have that Kidd and Dirk don't have?

[Findog]

As I said before, barring major injuries, no, they have no chance.

Then neither does Orlando or Denver.

[ElNono]

You listed which teams had "it" and which teams didn't. But you certainly didn't back up your assertions with any evidence.

What evidence do you need?


So what did Denver have in 2009 that the Mavericks didn't have in 2006? The Mavericks had a very competitive Finals where the outcome of the series would've been changed by one or two plays. Denver got taken apart at home in Game 6 by the eventual champs.

As I already said, a leader.

[ElNono]

Then neither does Orlando or Denver.

I don't think Orlando really has a chance to win it all.
Denver needs KMart, and even then it's a tossup.

[Rogue]

As I already said, a leader.
a cheerleader?

[Findog]

What evidence do you need?

How did you determine who has "it" and who doesn't? What qualities do you see in Billups that you don't see in Kidd?


As I already said, a leader

So the Mavs came much closer to a title without a "leader" in 2006 than the Nuggets did with just such a player in 2009. Interesting. How on earth were the Mavs ever able to beat such a team as San Antonio in 2006 when the Spurs had just such a player in Duncan and the teams were level in talent? How come the team with the leader didn't prevail at home in Game 7 over the team lacking just such a player?

[ElNono]

God damn you're dumb. I wouldn't expect anything more from someone who supports harboring Nazis.

Don't be butthurt. Reality sometimes hurt, and you don't need to bring up Godwin's law on every post. I don't see you contributing to this discussion with insight on why your team has been a complete failure throughout it's history.

[Findog]

a cheerleader?

I bet Billups gives a killer Knute Rockne locker room speech.

[ElNono]

How did you determine who has "it" and who doesn't? What qualities do you see in Billups that you don't see in Kidd?

Billups is a leader, but more importantly, he's a catalyst for that team. When he got there, he didn't play lap dog to Carmelo. He simply took reins of the team. Carmelo might be the most talented player, but Denver is Chauncey's team. Kidd on the other hand, is happy to be second banana to Dirk. You look at Dallas, and it's Dirk's team.


So the Mavs came much closer to a title without a "leader" in 2006 than the Nuggets did with just such a player in 2009. Interesting. How on earth were the Mavs ever able to beat such a team as San Antonio in 2006 when the Spurs had just such a player in Duncan and the teams were level in talent? How come the team with the leader didn't prevail at home in Game 7 over the team lacking just such a player?

Dallas had a great gameplan. Kudos to AJ for that. He knew enough of our team to know what bothered us and what didn't. Really, not much different than what Nelly did a year later to the Mavs. As far as Duncan, well, you might remember he had planar fasciitis that season.
But don't get me wrong. Over 7 games, the Mavs executed better, and beat us fair and square.

[ElNono]

What intangible leadership qualities does Billups have that Kidd and Dirk don't have?

Billups is the exact right fit for that team. They always had great talent, but they never knew how to really take advantage of it. That's why they were always unable to make a deep run in the playoffs.
Billups sets the tempo, he knows when to run and when to slow down. He understands that sometimes it's time for Melo to do his thing and sometimes it's time for Nene to play the low post game. He's the catalyst and basically a coach on the floor.

[Findog]

Billups is a leader,

So Dirk and Kidd aren't leaders? Kidd doesn't have the same kind of alpha dog temperament, veteran savvy, basketball IQ and leadership skills as Billups? The book on Dirk is that he doesn't have an Alpha Dog temperament, but in terms of unselfishness, basketball IQ, veteran savvy, he's a leader.


but more importantly, he's a catalyst for that team. When he got there, he didn't play lap dog to Carmelo.He simply took reins of the team. Carmelo might be the most talented player, but Denver is Chauncey's team.

That's true, but what is most important is that he's an actual PG who knows how to run an offense. He gets his teammates involved, knows when to defer and what hot hand to ride, but he also knows when to look for his shot and take over when necessary. Iverson, on the other hand, traded possessions with Anthony; i.e. "You shot last time down the court, now it's my turn." All of that locker room stuff wouldn't matter at all if Billups weren't a much better ON COURT fit than Iverson.



Kidd on the other hand, is happy to be second banana to Dirk. You look at Dallas, and it's Dirk's team.

He runs that locker room alongside Dirk.

[ElNono]

Listen, Kidd used to be a whole more important in the old Nets team, because he was the right fit there. He always been great passing and on the fastbreak, and they had all athletic freaks around him, like young RJ and KMart. On that team, Kidd was simply the perfect PG. On the Mavs, he's still a great PG, and I'll give him enormous credit for working on his spot up 3 point shot, but it's not really his game. He has also taken a seat back to Dirk as far as leadership goes. So, he's effective in Dallas, but not quite all you could get from him.

[Findog]

He has also taken a seat back to Dirk as far as leadership goes.

He has? How did you determine this?

[ezau]

Mavfan should stick to topics they're experts on, like who can win more games in the regular season and how to win a regular season MVP trophy then proceed to lose to an 8th seed, and leave the championship talk to fans whose teams know what it takes to win it all.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ElNono]

So Dirk and Kidd aren't leaders? Kidd doesn't have the same kind of alpha dog temperament, veteran savvy, basketball IQ and leadership skills as Billups? The book on Dirk is that he doesn't have an Alpha Dog temperament, but in terms of unselfishness, basketball IQ, veteran savvy, he's a leader.

Dirk is an extremely talented basketball player, but he's not a leader. It's just not in his imprint. As far as veteran savvy and basketball IQ, I'll say that they're all on the same level. Kidd was the leader of the Nets teams that reached the Finals. He's not the leader of the Mavericks today.
This is Dirk's team.


That's true, but what is most important is that he's an actual PG who knows how to run an offense. He gets his teammates involved, and he looks for shot and takes over when necessary. Iverson, on the other hand, traded possessions with Anthony; i.e. "You shot last time down the court, now it's my turn." All of that locker room stuff wouldn't matter at all if if weren't a much better ON COURT fit than Iverson.

Chauncey also knows when it's time for heroics, and when it's time to cool it down. Tempo. He can run the fastbreak and can play the set offense. But above all, all his teammates trust him calling the shots. He knows when it's time to get mad, and when it's time to chill out. He knows when to put the foot on the throat and don't let go.


He runs that locker room alongside Dirk.

Veteran players normally do.

[ezau]

Don't worry for him. Once Manu signs with the Lakers, he'll be "identifying" with the Lakers.

lol Suns. How many times do the Spurs need to own your team to finally "get it"?

[ElNono]

He has? How did you determine this?

The Mavs are Dirk's team. You can tell me how well Kidd has fit, and how important he is to what your team does, but ultimately the team is built around him. When push come to shove, he's the guy that makes or breaks your team.

[ezau]

the mavs have an outside shot at winning it all this year,

:lmao:lmao I just to laugh at this statement. In 07, everybody expected the Mavs to run away with a trophy after finishing the regular season at a 67-15. What did Dirk and the rest of the Mavettes do? They lost to a fucking 8th seed while Dirk won the MVP without even proceeding in the playoffs. Point is, you guys still find a way to lose, in spite of being the heavy favorites. Don't expect this year to be any different.