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stretch
03-12-2010, 04:08 PM
Hi guys! How are you all doing? Hope you all enjoy this and have a wonderful day!



http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=2722




Hollinger And The Mavs: Is ESPN 'Expert' 'Full Of Mathematical Reason'? Or Full Of Something Else?
Today's Top Six Examples Of His Factual Flaws On The '13th-Best' Mavs
By Mike Fisher -- DB.com


Why do I generally ignore John Hollinger’s ESPN-sponsored anti-Mavs ravings?

Because I believe they contain as much sincerity as a Glenn Beck teardrop.

But then, on Thursday, Hollinger went on the defensive, went online, went on the radio, and went a little nuts trying to insist that he can justify his "scientific'' position that Dallas is but the NBA's 13th best team. And then my friend Tim MacMahon opened a new pathway by courteously stating that Hollinger’s Mavs take is “devoid of emotion’’ and “full of mathematical reason.’’

Now that is worth a deeper look.

Let’s chronicle Hollinger’s day-long campaign on Thursday – his rankings, his attempt to explain his rankings, his radio appearances to attempt to explain his explanations of his rankings – and see if they are indeed “full of mathematical reason.’’




PART I: THE TOP SIX EXAMPLES (JUST FROM THURSDAY!) OF JOHN HOLLINGER NOT BEING ‘FULL OF MATHEMATICAL REASON’ WHEN IT COMES TO THE MAVS



1. John says the Nuggets would beat Dallas in a playoff series even though “the two teams will meet March 29 in Dallas, and if the Mavs win, they'll take the season series 2-1 thanks in part to having two of the games at home.’’

FISH: His “mathematical reasoning’’ is inaccurate. Dallas has indeed split its two games so far with the Nuggets. But and any Mavs fan knows, any Nuggets fan knows, and anybody with access to the internet can know, both games were played in Denver.



2. John says the Cavs would beat Dallas in a playoff series because “the Cavs sport the ultimate trump card in (LeBron) James.’’

FISH: There is nothing “mathematical’’ and nothing in John’s system to account for “trump cards.’’ If there is credit due to “trump cards,’’ Dallas’ employment of Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Kidd should also be factored in.



3. John says that when Dallas plays the Lakers, “The problem is the Mavs can't score on L.A. …’’

FISH: Once again, this is worse than misapplied science.

This is fake-deep knowledge that isn't knowledge at all.

Just two weeks ago, the Lakers played the Mavs. Dallas scored 101 points in the five-point win (too close, right, John?), which is right at its season average.

In other words, Dallas' point total does go down when it plays the Lakers. It stays the same.

John is making a habit (and in a way, has made a career) out of ignoring circumstances that lead to outcomes. But this cannot be ignored: In that game, Dallas played without Caron Butler, without Erick Dampier and with Roddy Beaubois out of the rotation. But Nowitzki scored 31 and Jason Terry scored 30.

But besides all that, yes indeed, Dallas cannot score against the Lakers. Except for those pesky 101 points. … two guys scoring 30 plus. … and three rotation players being out of the rotation.



4. In judging the Hawks and Mavs to be close, John points out that “They've split six meetings during the past three years.’’

FISH: That’s true. Indeed, who can forget the all-important Mavs’ November 2, 2007 loss at Atlanta … and who can deny the impact that game and its principles will have in this year’s Atlanta-Dallas NBA Finals!

I mean, I hope coach Avery can get better production this time around from starters ‘Gana Diop, Jerry Stackhouse and Eddie Jones. Oh, and having Trenton Hassell and Juwan Howard available off the bench, that oughta be helpful, too.

With a game like this -- so important to John's argument -- I wonder if President George W. Bush will attend?



5. John says Dallas is inferior to Orlando and says the only reason the Magic lost is because “Orlando also shot 4-for-25 on 3s in that game -- an event unlikely to repeat itself in future meetings.’’

FISH: If John had actually watched the game, he’d know one of the reasons the “new Mavs’’ were able to manage that feat.

Additionally, in that same game – which Dallas won by 10! … in Orlando! -- Dirk, Butler, and Marion shot a combined 38 percent.

You know what that is? THAT is what us scientists call "an event unlikely to repeat itself in future meetings.''



6. In explaining why he is certain Milwaukee would beat Dallas in a playoff series (an outrageously unsound opinion that reeks of a Skip Bayless-esque craving for contrarian attention), John says, “Unbeknownst to most Mavs fans or the larger world in general, the Bucks may be the hottest team in the league right now. Since acquiring John Salmons, they’ve won nine of 10. … ‘’

But John, what about the fact that Dallas is 2-0 against Milwaukee this year?

John says, “Because both contests happened before the Bucks' recent rejuvenation, I'd lean toward Milwaukee in a neutral-site series.’’

FISH: “Mathematical reason’’? Milwaukee’s nine wins in 10 outings makes the Bucks “the hottest team in the league right now’’ even as another team has 13 wins in 13 outings?

What sort of math is this where "9 out of 10'' is hotter than "13 out of 13''?

A neutral-site series? On what planet would a Mavs-Bucks best-of-seven feature all seven games at a neutral site? Is there a basketball court on some Nut Farm somewhere where we could tip this bad boy off?

It is exactly this sort of Pretzel Logic that casts so much doubt on, and draws so much skepticism of, John’s miscalculations.

Consider the insistence that “acquiring John Salmons’’ is somehow more important than “acquiring Caron Butler'' AND "acquiring Brendan Haywood.’’ That is simply not a justifiable basketball opinion. Not on any level. (To test it, somebody call the Bucks and ask them if, right now, they'd like to swap Salmons to Dallas in exchange for Butler/Haywood.)

John cites Milwaukee’s “recent rejuvenation’’ as the reason it is now superior to the Mavs … thus ignoring a “recent rejuvenation’’ of the Mavs that has propelled Dallas to within a whiff of first place. (Milwaukee is 15 games out of first place.)

And then there is the odd girly slap at Mavs fans who are, in John's mind, apparently ignorant as to the Bucks’ hotness.

"Unbeknownst to Mavs fans ...''?

Is that comment somebody’s idea of being “devoid of emotion’’? Is John chiding you, the Mavs fan, because you watch 82 Dallas games but maybe only two Bucks games?

Clip-and-save that thought for a bit. …



Because coming up, Part II … The Top Six Examples of John Hollinger Not Being ‘Devoid Of Emotion’ When It Comes To The Mavs.

In the meantime, please let my “Full of Mathematical Reason’’ counterpoints sink in. … and contemplate the possibility that “mathematical reason’’ isn’t the only thing John Hollinger is full of.









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231pm mar 12 2010

Trainwreck2100
03-12-2010, 04:12 PM
just keep giving him hits

Xylus
03-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Hollinger is a motherfucking Nazi sympathizer / communist / rapist!

Trainwreck2100
03-12-2010, 04:14 PM
Hollinger is a motherfucking Nazi sympathizer / communist / rapist!

little known fact, he dresses up like ben roetlessberger when he rapes the women

Edward
03-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Good to hear from you man

badfish22
03-12-2010, 04:17 PM
:lmao Fisher raped him from every angle

Trainwreck2100
03-12-2010, 04:22 PM
*subscribed

Kai
03-12-2010, 04:24 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/mud8qf.gif

Trainwreck2100
03-12-2010, 04:27 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/mud8qf.gif

why would you read it? What's worse the fool, the fool that argues with him, or the fool that stands around watching two fools argue?

PGDynasty24
03-12-2010, 04:27 PM
The fact that you Dallas people even Give a fuck what Hollinger thinks is giving him the attention he wants. Hollinger constantly talks shit on Lakers and Kobe,he loves to suck that Cavs cock. I mean why would u care what he thinks,little 5 foot 5 inch looks like the guy who never got picked on teams and would be the stat keeper.

badfish22
03-12-2010, 04:31 PM
I havent read one of Hollingers articles trying to explain all this shit. It was still a funny article by Fish. Mostly because he wasn't really arguing, he was just able to prove that Hollinger didn't even know the basics of what he was talking about.

Like this one
John says the Nuggets would beat Dallas in a playoff series even though “the two teams will meet March 29 in Dallas, and if the Mavs win, they'll take the season series 2-1 thanks in part to having two of the games at home.’’

FISH: His “mathematical reasoning’’ is inaccurate. Dallas has indeed split its two games so far with the Nuggets. But and any Mavs fan knows, any Nuggets fan knows, and anybody with access to the internet can know, both games were played in Denver.

stretch
03-12-2010, 05:32 PM
I havent read one of Hollingers articles trying to explain all this shit. It was still a funny article by Fish. Mostly because he wasn't really arguing, he was just able to prove that Hollinger didn't even know the basics of what he was talking about.

Like this one
John says the Nuggets would beat Dallas in a playoff series even though “the two teams will meet March 29 in Dallas, and if the Mavs win, they'll take the season series 2-1 thanks in part to having two of the games at home.’’

FISH: His “mathematical reasoning’’ is inaccurate. Dallas has indeed split its two games so far with the Nuggets. But and any Mavs fan knows, any Nuggets fan knows, and anybody with access to the internet can know, both games were played in Denver.

exactly. fish isnt that stupid, so as to fall for hollingers garbage. but just the same way hollingers garbage gets so many hits, his "reply" will get a lot of hits as well.

Goran Dragic
03-12-2010, 05:35 PM
It's somewhat true that Hollinger has a job because people do read his shit, like it or hate it. Even so, ESPN shouldn't let their sports writers get away with blatant factual errors like the Denver/Dallas home/away thing that can be checked by visiting www.basketball-reference.com

phxspurfan
03-12-2010, 05:37 PM
DB.com....

what the hell's a guy from Deutsche Bank doing reviewing an NBA article :downspin:

Andrew Bynum
03-12-2010, 06:46 PM
crofling at asshurt mavfan

Buck>Mavs, shit's simple as fuck, animals.

Cane
03-12-2010, 06:57 PM
Did this guy also write that Hollinger was full of shit back in 2007?

HarlemHeat37
03-12-2010, 07:36 PM
Hollinger uses advanced stats in his system and he usually goes by his system to make predictions and analysis..there's nothing wrong with that, his stats are actually accurate more often than not..he admits there are some flaws in his system, but I'd rather listen to his unique view as opposed to analysts that give us their "opinions" based on their thoughts, since the majority of these analysts are idiots..who the fuck wants to listen to the inaccurate views of Jamal Mashburn or Kenny Smith?..

The people that hate Hollinger are obviously the people that don't like his stats because they don't favor their team..Laker fans hate Hollinger for obvious reasons, I won't get into it..Mavs fans apparently hate him now for this stupid reason..

Mavs fans are making WAY too big of a deal about Hollinger..they're rioting over this shit..as the Mavs continue to play well and improve, so will their advanced stats..then Hollinger's stats will like them, and Mavs fans will stop hating him..

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter..if the Mavs are good enough, they will beat these teams in the playoffs..isn't that all that matters?..

alchemist
03-12-2010, 07:44 PM
CROFL butthurt mavfan

:lmao :lmao :lmao

greyforest
03-12-2010, 07:47 PM
DB.com....

what the hell's a guy from Deutsche Bank doing reviewing an NBA article :downspin:

mavericks = dirk = germany

endrity
03-12-2010, 08:26 PM
Hollinger uses advanced stats in his system and he usually goes by his system to make predictions and analysis..there's nothing wrong with that, his stats are actually accurate more often than not..he admits there are some flaws in his system, but I'd rather listen to his unique view as opposed to analysts that give us their "opinions" based on their thoughts, since the majority of these analysts are idiots..who the fuck wants to listen to the inaccurate views of Jamal Mashburn or Kenny Smith?..

The people that hate Hollinger are obviously the people that don't like his stats because they don't favor their team..Laker fans hate Hollinger for obvious reasons, I won't get into it..Mavs fans apparently hate him now for this stupid reason..

Mavs fans are making WAY too big of a deal about Hollinger..they're rioting over this shit..as the Mavs continue to play well and improve, so will their advanced stats..then Hollinger's stats will like them, and Mavs fans will stop hating him..

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter..if the Mavs are good enough, they will beat these teams in the playoffs..isn't that all that matters?..

I actually agree with this. While as a biased Dallas fan I think he goes too far with his prediction that the Mavs will lose to any non-Spur team in the playoffs, I think he is by far the most interesting read out there. I don't wanna read all the time about 'intangibles' and 'toughness' and 'sending a message' to the other team. All that stuff is bullshit to me. And Hollinger is the best at going a bit further than that.

Ghazi
03-12-2010, 08:51 PM
The problem is Hollinger's incessant discrediting of the Mavs and picking and choosing of information.

I dont mind that we're 13th in the rankings, but Hollinger needs to admit that it's just a fluke, acknowledge this 13 game win streak rather than saying the Bucks/Magic (well Magic might be) are hotter teams, implying Camby/Batum have more impact than Butler/Haywood, etcc etc... has to factor in the Mavs slew of injuries, they've only had ONE game completely healthy over the past 15ish. He needs to stop justifying the ranking and give the guys in blue some credit... he's just making himself look worse and worse and far too defensive.

sabar
03-12-2010, 10:55 PM
The problem is Hollinger's incessant discrediting of the Mavs and picking and choosing of information.

I dont mind that we're 13th in the rankings, but Hollinger needs to admit that it's just a fluke, acknowledge this 13 game win streak rather than saying the Bucks/Magic (well Magic might be) are hotter teams, implying Camby/Batum have more impact than Butler/Haywood, etcc etc... has to factor in the Mavs slew of injuries, they've only had ONE game completely healthy over the past 15ish. He needs to stop justifying the ranking and give the guys in blue some credit... he's just making himself look worse and worse and far too defensive.

He HAS to be defensive, the numbers are his entire career. ESPN ain't keeping him for his insightful analysis of the 3 games a year he actually watches.

Killakobe81
03-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Hollinger uses advanced stats in his system and he usually goes by his system to make predictions and analysis..there's nothing wrong with that, his stats are actually accurate more often than not..he admits there are some flaws in his system, but I'd rather listen to his unique view as opposed to analysts that give us their "opinions" based on their thoughts, since the majority of these analysts are idiots..who the fuck wants to listen to the inaccurate views of Jamal Mashburn or Kenny Smith?..

The people that hate Hollinger are obviously the people that don't like his stats because they don't favor their team..Laker fans hate Hollinger for obvious reasons, I won't get into it..Mavs fans apparently hate him now for this stupid reason..

Mavs fans are making WAY too big of a deal about Hollinger..they're rioting over this shit..as the Mavs continue to play well and improve, so will their advanced stats..then Hollinger's stats will like them, and Mavs fans will stop hating him..

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter..if the Mavs are good enough, they will beat these teams in the playoffs..isn't that all that matters?..

ALL Laker fans do NOT hate Hollinger.
I aCTUALLY find him and Simmons to be funny even if either or both dislike the lakers. I come to this site planty and MANY PEOPLE on here hate the Lakers. I actually agree that stats analysis can be helpful I just hate when it is used as the sole judge (ie. CP3 >Dwill because of PER)

As for Mavs fans articles like his defending that Bucks would beat Mavs is laughable ... but a "stathead" like Hollinger would make that argument. Watche the games any sane fan would know that the MAvs would win in 6 or less ...
Bucks are good but few rookie PG's will lead a team over a veteran team ...

anon101
03-13-2010, 02:18 AM
Did this guy also write that Hollinger was full of shit back in 2007?

Hollinger's 'objective' mathematics predicted Dallas would beat Golden State in 2007. Another example of how he conveniently ignores facts that don't support whatever self-aggrandizing storyline he's trying to sell.