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DarrinS
03-12-2010, 04:37 PM
Very good op ed


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/I-am-not-afraid-of-my-Toyota-Prius-87361597.html




I’ve been driving Toyota Priuses since 2001. As a junior defense lawyer in the mid-90s, I litigated a number of bogus sudden acceleration cases that were brought against General Motors.

So the recent kerfuffle over alleged mysterious electronic problems with the Prius and other Toyotas has certainly caught my attention beyond just throwing my floor mat in the trunk.

I knew the public hysteria had reached unprecedented proportions when my father, a Ph.D. geologist skeptical of everything from George W. Bush to global warming (and that’s just the G’s), credulously emailed me repeatedly to demand I read a press release from a plaintiff’s lawyer on how to prevent runaway vehicles.

The short answer: hit the brake and stay on it. Every vehicle on the road today has a braking system more powerful than its engine. Shift into neutral. Then turn off the power.

So James Sikes, who made a dramatic 911 call from his Prius on Interstate 8 in San Diego earlier this week, is effectively claiming he had an electrical problem that affected his throttle, his brake, and his power system, because it took him over 20 minutes to stop his car.

Somehow no one in the press has asked Sikes how it is he could stop the car once it had slowed to 50 mph, but not when it was going 90 mph. Have Balloon Boy and the finger-in-the-chili taught us nothing?

Even if one believes all the hype, the reaction so far has been a giant overreaction. Fifty-odd deaths over 10 years and millions of Toyotas is a drop in the bucket compared to the general risk of being on the road at all.

It’s entirely possible that more people will be killed driving to the dealer for the recall than lives will be saved from going through the safety theater demanded by the Department of Transportation.

As Carnegie Mellon University Professor Paul Fischbeck calculates, I face 19 times more risk walking home the mile back from my Toyota dealer than I would driving a car that one assumes has the electronic defect.

But one shouldn’t believe the hype. We went through this a generation ago with the Audi 5000 and other autos accused of sudden acceleration, and, again, mysterious unknowable car components were supposedly at fault.

In a North Carolina case I worked on, the plaintiff’s expert theorized that electromagnetic transmissions from submarines might have set off the throttle via the cruise control, though, unsurprisingly, he was not able to duplicate the effect while driving around electrical towers with much greater electromagnetic interference.

Back then, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) spent millions studying the issue. They found that sudden acceleration was several times more likely among elderly drivers than young drivers, and much more frequent among the very short or someone who had just gotten into a vehicle.

Electromagnetic rays don’t discriminate by age and height, which suggests very much that human factors were at play: in other words, pedal misapplication. A driver would step on the wrong pedal, panic when the car did not perform as expected, continue to mistake the accelerator for the brake, and press down on the accelerator even harder.

This had disastrous consequences in a 1992 Washington Square Park incident that killed five and a 2003 Santa Monica Farmers’ Market incident that killed ten—the New York driver, Stella Maycheck, was 74 (and quite short); the California driver, George Russell Weller, 86.

We’re seeing the same pattern again today. Initial reports of a problem, followed by dozens of new reports “coming to light” as people seek to blame their earlier accidents on sudden acceleration.

Again, mysterious car components are at issue, this time, speculation of software or electronics going haywire. But if the problem is software, it is manifesting itself a lot like the Audi sudden acceleration did.

The Los Angeles Times recently did a story detailing all of the NHTSA reports of Toyota “sudden acceleration” fatalities, and, though the Times did not mention it, the ages of the drivers involved were striking.

In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89—and I’m leaving out the son whose age wasn’t identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger.

These “electronic defects” apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. (If computers are going to discriminate against anyone, they should be picking on the young, who are more likely to take up arms against the rise of the machines and future Terminators).

But Toyota is being mau-maued by Democratic regulators and legislators in the pockets of trial lawyers—who, according to the Associated Press, stand to make a billion dollars from blaming Toyota for driver error.

And that is before hundreds of past run-of-the-mill Toyota accidents that killed or injured people are re-classified in future lawsuits as an electronics failure in an attempt to win settlements against the company.

Media irresponsibility severely damaged Audi’s brand for years in the U.S.; GM’s litigation expenses from sudden acceleration and similarly bogus product liability suits contributed to its recent need for a taxpayer bailout.

Certainly, the dozens of deaths reported to NHTSA are real tragedies—as are the tens of thousands of other automobile-related deaths that occur every year. While it’s certainly possibly the case that floor mat troubles have caused a handful of accidents, the media needs to exhibit more skepticism before it does trial lawyers’ bidding against Toyota on a speculative theory of electronic defect that is absent of evidence.

Theodore H. Frank (http://tedfrank.com) is the founder and president of the Center for Class Action Fairness. He does not speak for General Motors.

clambake
03-12-2010, 04:49 PM
hello toyota, i'm ted frank and i'm ready to represent you.

Stringer_Bell
03-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Center for Class Action Fairness? So this dude makes his money speaking up for corporations that already have ace legal teams? Is he supposed to be some kind of psy-op writers, you know, a grass roots guy with no egg in the basket trying to make it all fair for everyone?

"So the recent kerfuffle"...yea, sure sounds a kerfuffle. Dick.

DarrinS
03-12-2010, 05:51 PM
So you guys think a good brand like Toyota should be smeared because some senior citizens confuse the accelerator with the brake pedal and panic?


I get it.

DarrinS
03-12-2010, 06:03 PM
Oh, by the way, that engineering professor that staged the Camry Death Ride for the ABC's Brian Ross, is a consultant paid by trial lawyers that have pending cases against Toyota.


Independent engineers were able to reproduce his results on a Chevy Malibu, Mercedes E Class, Honda Accord, Subaru Outback BMW 325i, Ford Fusion, and Chrysler Crossfire.

ChumpDumper
03-12-2010, 06:04 PM
So why did Toyota say there was indeed something wrong with their cars, Darrin?

greyforest
03-12-2010, 06:11 PM
ever since the government took over GM there's certainly a lot of news about toyota's recalls

TeyshaBlue
03-12-2010, 06:11 PM
Here's Popular Mechanics spin on the Toyota issue:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html

Anatomy of Toyota's Problem Pedal: Mechanic's Diary
What's the real problem behind Toyota's unintended acceleration? Is it simply a sticky pedal, or is the trouble more fundamental? PM senior automotive editor Mike Allen delves into modern car tech, explaining why widespread theories about electrical throttle problems and electromagnetic interference are misguided.

By Mike Allen
Published on: March 3, 2010

Toyota has recalled millions of cars and trucks—4.2 million to replace floor mats that might impede throttle-pedal travel, and 2.4 million to install a shim behind the electronic pedal assembly. All of the affected pedal assemblies were made by Canadian supplier CTS. Toyota's boffins have documented a problem that can make a few of these pedals slow to return, and maybe even stick down. Problem solved.

But the media, Congress—and personal-injury lawyers—smell the blood in the water. Not to diminish the injuries and a few deaths attributable to these very real mechanical problems, but they're statistically only a very small blip, which may explain why Toyota took so long to identify the issue, especially when it has symptoms similar to the similarly documented floor mat recall. Plus, sudden unintended acceleration (SUA) is notoriously difficult to diagnose because, more often then not, the problem can't be repeated in front of a mechanic. Let's not forget the Audi SUA episode back in the '80s; the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration eventually concluded that there was no mechanical problem. The culprit, as hard as this is to admit, was most likely driver error. To put the issue into context, in the last decade, there were about 24,000 customer complaints about SUA involving almost every major automaker. The NHTSA investigated fewer than 50.

The issue now is whether there's a more insidious problem unrelated to the two recalls already extant. Specifically, whether there's some design flaw in the entire concept of electronic throttle control. Some are questioning whether electromagnetic interference from devices like cellphones could be contributing to the acceleration problems.



It used to be that there was a steel cable that ran from the pedal itself through the firewall and attached to the throttle blades that admitted air to the intake manifold. A sticking throttle could be the result of friction anywhere—in the pedal pivot, between the cable itself and its nylon-lined sheath, or in the carburetor or fuel-injection throttle blades. (Does anybody remember carburetors?). Modern cars, which make up the majority on the market today, use a throttle pedal assembly that is connected to the engine only electronically. Signals are carried over wires to the engine management computer, which in turn sends electrical impulses to the stepper motor that actually controls the throttle blades.

Sounds like there are plenty of places for gremlins to seize control of the works, right? And that's where pundits who don't really understand the architecture of throttle-by-wire systems go wrong. It's all in the engineering.

Let's start at bottom of it all—your foot, which moves the pedal fore and aft in relation to the firewall. Inside the pedal assembly is a spring to make it return as you lift off, a device to add a little friction that dampens the movement (Your foot would tire in short order if there wasn't some damping), and a transducer of some sort that turns the movement of the pedal into an electrical signal. That transducer is a simple device, invented in 1879 by Edwin Hall (not 1979; 1879). It consists of only a single slab of semiconductor with a few wires attached to its edge, one on each end and one in the middle. With a voltage applied to the end wires, it acts as a voltage divider. Placing a magnet near the sensor changes the magnetic lines of flux, which literally push the electrons away from the electrodes and changes the voltage at the center wire. The magnet, in the Toyota case, is on the pedal arm. As the pedal moves, it alters the voltage at the semiconductor and that's how the engine computer knows the position of the pedal. The benefit of Hall-effect sensors is that there's no mechanical connection to corrode, no internal resistance, and other electronics, such as amplifiers, aren't needed. You could make one on your kitchen table with a refrigerator magnet and some doorbell wire.

There are two discrete Hall-effect sensors in the Toyota/CTS pedal, which is common industry practice. Just to make sure the sensors aren't confused, they run on totally separate circuits back to the ECM, three wires each. They don't even share an electrical ground. Like many onboard automobile sensors, they are also completely isolated from the vehicle ground. To reduce the potential for interference or mistakes, they operate at different voltages. The first sensor, known as ACCEL POS #1, has a nominal voltage range from 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts at idle and 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts at wide-open-throttle (WOT). The second sensor, ACCEL POS #2, delivers from 1.2 volts to 2.0 volts at idle and 3.4 volts to 5.0 volts at WOT. Why such a wide range of permissible voltages? The engine computer (ECM) recalibrates the sensor regularly, every time you start the car and the ECM goes through its power-on self-test.

Both accelerator-pedal-position Hall-effect sensors have to agree fairly closely, or the ECM will go into its limp-home mode, which turns on the Check Engine light and sets a trouble code.

There's more. If Toyota's engine-management scheme is anything like that of most other car companies, firmware inside the ECM also monitors the airflow into the engine, the throttle blade position and engine rpm, and calculates backwards to what the throttle pedal position should be. Any discrepancy, and a trouble code is set, the Check Engine light on the dash goes on, and you're dialing the service manager to make an appointment.



Bottom line: The system is not only redundant, it's double-redundant. The signal lines from the pedal to the ECM are isolated. The voltages used in the system are DC voltages—any RF voltages introduced into the system, by, say, that microwave oven you have in the passenger seat, would be AC voltages, which the ECM's conditioned inputs would simply ignore. Neither your cellphone nor Johnny's PlayStation have the power to induce much confusion into the system.

These throttle-by-wire systems are very difficult to confuse—they're designed to be robust, and any conceivable failure is engineered to command not an open throttle but an error message.

So what to make of the unintended acceleration cases popping up by the dozens? Not the ones explainable by problem sticky pedals, but the ones documented by people who claim their vehicle ran away on its own, with no input, and resisted all attempts to stop it? Some can probably be explained as an attempt to get rid of a car consumers no longer desire. Some are probably the result of Audi 5000 Syndrome, where drivers simply lost track of their feet and depressed the gas instead of the brake. It's happened to me: Luckily I recognized the phenomenon and corrected before it went bang. Others may not have the presence of mind.

But the possibility that a vehicle could go from idling at a traffic light to terrific, uncalled-for and uncontrollable acceleration because the guy next to you at a traffic light answered his cellphone? Or some ghost in the machine or a hacker caused a software glitch that made your car run away and the brakes suddenly simultaneously fail? Not in the least bit likely. Toyota deserves a better deal than the media and Congress are giving it.

DarrinS
03-12-2010, 06:11 PM
So why did Toyota say there was indeed something wrong with their cars, Darrin?


They've admitted they have an electronic problem that causes this accelerator to get stuck wide open?

I don't think so.

MannyIsGod
03-12-2010, 06:14 PM
Interesting stats. I think the risk analysis is a appropriate and I think that the media absolutely blows things like this out of proportion. Whats funny is if I took that same risk analysis and used it on shit that scares Darrin like terrorism I doubt he'd like it then.

ChumpDumper
03-12-2010, 06:25 PM
They've admitted they have an electronic problem that causes this accelerator to get stuck wide open?

I don't think so.They have already recalled them for mechanical problems that could lead to stuck accelerators as well as computer problems with the braking system, so yes -- they have said things are wrong with their cars.

I agree that the numbers are small, and Toyota sales aren't really being hurt by this.

It's fun to watch you lionize a lawyer who is trying to criticize other lawyers for his own financial benefit.

MiamiHeat
03-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Fuck Toyota and foreign companies.

Support American companies and stop bleeding america dry.

DarrinS
03-12-2010, 06:26 PM
This is a real problem, but it doesn't involve electronics.

kRexOM1ysK8

DarrinS
03-12-2010, 06:27 PM
Fuck Toyota and foreign companies.

Support American companies and stop bleeding america dry.



Toyota accelerator pedals are from a supplier in Indiana.

ChumpDumper
03-12-2010, 06:34 PM
Here's a YouTube!

jack sommerset
03-12-2010, 06:38 PM
This is a real problem, but it doesn't involve electronics.

kRexOM1ysK8

Seems much to do about nothing.

Yonivore
03-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Fuck Toyota and foreign companies.

Support American companies and stop bleeding america dry.
Toyota is an American Company. They employ thousands of Americans.

EmptyMan
03-13-2010, 08:57 AM
lol supporting UAW.

PublicOption
03-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Toyota > than any piece of shit ever made by Chrysler, GM. or Ford.
Honda >
Subaru>

however,

Nissan>Toyota.

PublicOption
03-13-2010, 03:14 PM
http://www.autoincar.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/spyshot-nissan-370z.jpg

PublicOption
03-13-2010, 03:16 PM
http://www.vividracing.com/forums/gallery/files/5/5/4/3/NissanGTR893RTextureBlack21a.jpg

boutons_deux
03-13-2010, 04:52 PM
"Support American companies"

That's a jingoistic, anti-free market bias. Milton Friedman would not be happy.

Drinking 3 beers and driving an American car is 100x more dangerous than not drinking and driving a Toyota.

35K auto deaths/year, how many were Toyota quality defects?

Creepn
03-14-2010, 04:25 AM
Toyota > than any piece of shit ever made by Chrysler

Hey hey fuck you. I love my Chrysler 300c. Best damn ride I ever owned. After driving that car, I do not know whats the big deal about people bagging on Chryslers. It's smooth, great acceleration, classy, and pretty damn reliable.

DJ Mbenga
03-14-2010, 04:31 AM
meh, works for me. i seriously gotta consider buying a toyota now especially with 60 months no apr. thats an amazing deal

RandomGuy
03-15-2010, 10:49 AM
But Toyota is being mau-maued by Democratic regulators and legislators in the pockets of trial lawyers—who, according to the Associated Press, stand to make a billion dollars from blaming Toyota for driver error.

.... I was fairly in agreement right up to that point.

Bla blab la, Democrats bad, bla bla bla. Sheesh. He could make his point without the partisan attack, but I guess you have to have something to whip up the base.

Trial lawyers are demonized on the right the way big corporations are on the left.

Both characterizations of "this group is pure evil" are exaggerations of the reality that there are some bad actors in both groups.

The fun thing about op-eds is that you can get away with leaving things out.


GM’s litigation expenses from sudden acceleration and similarly bogus product liability suits contributed to its recent need for a taxpayer bailout.

This sentence is nominally true, but simply subjects the reader to more fear/hate mongering.

Here is another nominally true statement:

Dumping a large bucket of water into Lake Michigan contributes to raising the level of that body of water.

If you go down to the 2006 10k filing for GM, (this is the annual financial data transmitted to the Securities and Exchange Commission) and go to page 99, you will find the “results of operations”.

Although I am not exactly sure where legal expenses would be put, I would guess it would go in the line for “general expenses”, roughly about 14% of GM’s overall expenses, and these expenses would represent a rather small portion of that line item, a fraction of a fraction, if you will.

This is a rather ham-handed attempt to whip up an emotional response on the part of the reader by linking his favorite cause to something else unpopular. “If you’re mad about the bail outs, you should be mad about this too.”

That said, I think this is much ado about nothing as well. Much of this has been overblown on the part of the media. It plays interesting for the moment, nevermind the continuing disaster in Haiti, and all the other pressing issues.

RandomGuy
03-15-2010, 10:51 AM
they have already recalled them for mechanical problems that could lead to stuck accelerators as well as computer problems with the braking system, so yes -- they have said things are wrong with their cars.

I agree that the numbers are small, and toyota sales aren't really being hurt by this.

It's fun to watch you lionize a lawyer who is trying to criticize other lawyers for his own financial benefit.

+1

boutons_deux
03-15-2010, 10:56 AM
"toyota sales aren't really being hurt by this."

bullshit, they cratered in Jan, and probably Feb.

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Some of these incidents are the floor mat snagging the accelerator pedal. The others are old drivers confusing the accelerator for the brake pedal.

TeyshaBlue
03-15-2010, 11:26 AM
"toyota sales aren't really being hurt by this."

bullshit, they cratered in Jan, and probably Feb.

lol down 8.7% from 02/2009. Not exactly cratering.
Mitsubishi was down 10% without any controversy. Suzuki was down 61%! :wow


*edit* can't spell mitsubishi if my life depends on it.

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 01:18 PM
lol down 8.7% from 02/2009. Not exactly cratering.
Mitusbishi was down 10% without any controversy. Suzuki was down 61%! :wow


Don't confuse it with facts. It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.

DMX7
03-15-2010, 05:03 PM
Toyota is an American Company. They employ thousands of Americans.

It's a multinational company, headquartered in JAPAN. Does "Toyota" sound American to you?

Yonivore
03-15-2010, 05:14 PM
It's a multinational company, headquartered in JAPAN.
Toyota has manufacturing and assembly plants in this country and they buy component parts for their cars from American companies -- with nothing coming from Japan.


Does "Toyota" sound American to you?
As American as it gets; this is the melting pot of the world.

boutons_deux
03-16-2010, 02:23 AM
Trevor Traina

Chairman of DriverSide.com
Posted: March 16, 2010 02:51 AM
New Survey Shows Toyota Recalls Taking Toll

A new survey is casting light on the extent of consumer wariness in the wake of the ongoing Toyota recalls. Almost three out of every four Americans now trust the Toyota brand less because of the recent recalls and negative publicity according to the survey commissioned by DriverSide.com.

While there has been widespread speculation that Toyota was taking serious knocks due to the unrelenting tide of recalls on some of its most significant models, the extent of the damage had not been quantified. The new DriverSide.com survey shows that the brand has indeed been damaged. Of the 74% who now trust the brand less there was consistency across ages and other demographics although slightly more women than men (76% vs. 71%) have experienced a dip in their trust of Toyota. The numbers are a sobering reminder that Toyota has work to do if it is going to restore people's trust in the brand.

If there is a silver lining it is that 69% of car owners have been motivated to pay more attention to their own car's maintenance. Much recent data shows that people need to keep their cars longer. And yet, most people are not performing the most basic maintenance like following the manufacturer's recommended service schedule or rotating their tires. If the recent Toyota issues can get a larger percentage of the population to focus on preventative car maintenance, then it would be a positive development.

As for Toyota, there are a number of recent developments that cast some doubt on Toyota's detractors. Questions about the Prius driver in San Diego, questions about the accuracy of the recent coverage of the recalls on television, etc. may spell the turning point for this crisis. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out and what the ultimate impact is. A very similar scandal almost killed Audi in the 1980's only to be proven driver error. It took Audi ten years to recover but I suspect that Toyota will be back in the driver's seat much sooner than that.

RandomGuy
03-16-2010, 07:35 AM
Toyota has manufacturing and assembly plants in this country and they buy component parts for their cars from American companies -- with nothing coming from Japan.


Not so sure about that.

My understanding is that the cars have a mix of parts from various suppliers both in the US and Japan, as well as a couple of other places.

RandomGuy
03-16-2010, 07:41 AM
[Toyota is as] American as it gets; this is the melting pot of the world.

True.

If anyone thinks Toyota is really a foreign company, then buy their stock.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=TM

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/ir/stock/outline.html


Stock listings
Japan: Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Fukuoka, Sapporo
Overseas: New York, London

Pick and exchange. I would note that the above link shows that at least one of their largest shareholders is a bank in New York.

DarrinS
03-16-2010, 09:49 AM
Why do these phantom accelerator pedals hate old people so much?

coyotes_geek
03-16-2010, 10:06 AM
Speaking of phantom accelerators, not looking good for that guys who said his Prius sped out of control. Both Toyota and the NHTSA are saying they can't find anything wrong with his car.

DarrinS
03-16-2010, 11:26 AM
Speaking of phantom accelerators, not looking good for that guys who said his Prius sped out of control. Both Toyota and the NHTSA are saying they can't find anything wrong with his car.


The NHTSA is all but calling him a liar.

Oh, Gee!!
03-16-2010, 11:47 AM
he'll be on Dancing with the Stars next season

RandomGuy
03-16-2010, 11:54 AM
The NHTSA is all but calling him a liar.

Yup.

"inconsistencies" in his testimony.

Essentially, if there is some sort of even like an overrevving engine, then mashing on the brakes is a "failsafe" that shuts the engine down.

If the guy had mashed on the brakes as he said he did, or had put it into neutral at any time, he could have stopped the car.

The op-ed guy, although a partisan hack, probably has his finger on the true culprit in my opinion, if the ages of the drivers in question is true, although there could be some kink in the way the data was given.

It could be that only older people actually bother to report the incidents, leading to the skewness of the ages. Remember this sample is not random, but self-reported data. If someone chooses not to report, then they would be missing from the data sample. Random samples are the only valid types of samples for true scientific/statistical purposes.

The problem of older drivers will just get worse.

At some point, most states, if not all, will pass some form of mandatory testing for people over 60 or so.

We need to do that now, but there is no political will to do so. We will wait, as usual, until someone literally dies. Yes, there have been some spectacular crashes, but it will take a lot more before we get off our asses, sadly. I can only hope that my family would not be one of the statistics.

coyotes_geek
03-16-2010, 02:37 PM
I could be mistaken, but I think there already are a few states who do have drivers tests for seniors.

PublicOption
03-16-2010, 07:52 PM
http://car-news.roadfly.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/Infiniti-G37-Coupe.jpg