Kansas Aims to Earn title of "Most Backasswards State in the Union"

[scott]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7711574/

Evolution going on trial in Kansas
State to hold courtroom-style hearings

Updated: 4:07 p.m. ET May 2, 2005

TOPEKA, Kan - Evolution is going on trial in Kansas.

Eighty years after a famed courtroom battle in Tennessee pitted religious beliefs about the origins of life against the theories of British scientist Charles Darwin, Kansas is holding its own hearings on what school children should be taught about how life on Earth began.

The Kansas Board of Education has scheduled six days of courtroom-style hearings to begin Thursday in the capitol Topeka. More than two dozen witnesses will give testimony and be subject to cross-examination, with the majority expected to argue against teaching evolution.

Many prominent U.S. scientific groups have denounced the debate as founded on fallacy and have promised to boycott the hearings, which opponents say are part of a larger nationwide effort by religious interests to gain control over government.

"I feel like I'm in a time warp here," said Topeka attorney Pedro Irigonegaray who has agreed to defend evolution as valid science. "To debate evolution is similar to debating whether the Earth is round. It is an absurd proposition."

Widespread debate
Irigonegaray's opponent will be attorney John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design Network, a Kansas organization that argues the Earth was created through intentional design rather than random organism evolution.

The group is one of many that have been formed over the last several years to challenge the validity of evolutionary concepts and seek to open the schoolroom door to ideas that humans and other living creatures are too intricately designed to have come about randomly.

While many call themselves creationists, who believe that God was the ultimate designer of all life, they are stopping short of saying creationism should be taught in schools.

"We're not against evolution," said Calvert. "But there is a lot of evidence that suggests that life is the product of intelligence. I think it is inappropriate for the state to prejudge the question whether we are the product of design or just an occurrence."

Debates over evolution are currently being waged in more than a dozen states, including Texas where one bill would allowing for creationism to be taught alongside evolution.

Kansas has been grappling with the issue for years, garnering worldwide attention in 1999 when the state school board voted to downplay evolution in science classes.

Subsequent elections altered the membership of the school board and led to renewed backing for evolution instruction in 2001. But elections last year gave religious conservatives a 6-4 majority and the board is now finalizing new science standards, which will guide teachers about how and what to teach students.

The current proposal pushed by conservatives would not eliminate evolution entirely from instruction, nor would it require creationism be taught, but it would encourage teachers to discuss various viewpoints and eliminate core evolution claims as required curriculum.

School board member Sue Gamble, who describes herself as a moderate, said she will not attend the hearings, which she calls "a farce." She said the argument over evolution is part of a larger agenda by Christian conservatives to gradually alter the legal and social landscape in the United States.

"I think it is a desire by a minority ... to establish a theocracy, both within Kansas and growing to a national level," Gamble said.

Old Testament teachings
Some evolution detractors say that the belief that humans, animals and organisms evolved over long spans of time is inconsistent with Biblical teachings that life was created by God. The Bible's Old Testament says that God created life on Earth including the first humans, Adam and Eve, in six days.

Detractors also argue that evolution is invalid science because it cannot be tested or verified and say it is inappropriately being indoctrinated into education and discouraging consideration of alternatives.

But defenders say that evolution is not totally inconsistent with Biblical beliefs, and it provides a foundational concept for understanding many areas of science, including genetics and molecular biology.

The theory of evolution came to prominence in 1859 when Darwin published "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection," and it was the subject of a 1925 trial in Tennessee in which teacher John Thomas Scopes was accused of violating a ban against teaching evolution.

Kansas School Board chairman Steve Abrams said the hearings are less about religion than they are about seeking the best possible education for the state's children.

"If students ... do not understand the weaknesses of evolutionary theory as well as the strengths, a grave injustice is being done to them," Abrams said.

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

[spurster]

And people wonder why US education doesn't measure up to other countries.

[jalbre6]

what are they going to do, call God in to testify?

Probably not. I'd hate to see how God would handle a subpoena.

[Clandestino]

And people wonder why US education doesn't measure up to other countries.

i really hate it when i hear this shit... if the u.s. is so fucking uneducated than why are we the most powerful economically, militarily and technologically?

[jalbre6]

i really hate it when i hear this shit... if the u.s. is so fucking uneducated than why are we the most powerful economically, militarily and technologically?

It's because of the huge head start we have on everyone else, and the existing braintrust and infrastructure.

Education in the US is getting better, but so many others countries are improving at a rate we're not keeping up with.

I'm not bashing you Clan, but crap like this is a major problem. Shouldn't schools be working at providing the best possible education that they can without arguing over something that was settled sixty years ago?

[SPARKY]

i really hate it when i hear this shit... if the u.s. is so fucking uneducated than why are we the most powerful economically, militarily and technologically?

Because we are living off of the past in many respects with regards to our educational, capital, and political systems. Also, because at least up until now, we have been rather adept at attracting intelligent people from around the world to move to this country, study here, and then stay here.

This country has a nagging tendency to devote 95% of its attention span to matters of belief, matters which ultimtately turn into a spectator sport in the media while devoting 5%, if that, to matters of some import. And I don't mean killing Arabs and other bad darkies.

K-12 education in this country has been on a rather marked decline since the 1960s. We seem to be moving towards a feudal style society in which the (relative) few enjoy a bounty of wealth while the ignorant masses find themselves working more and more for less and less.

Basically, I see little reason to be proud of the state of American education, unless you are of the jingoistic knee-jerk sort.

[Clandestino]

It's because of the huge head start we have on everyone else, and the existing braintrust and infrastructure.

Education in the US is getting better, but so many others countries are improving at a rate we're not keeping up with.

I'm not bashing you Clan, but crap like this is a major problem. Shouldn't schools be working at providing the best possible education that they can without arguing over something that was settled sixty years ago?

i think it is a scare tactic for everyone to get an education... in many euro countries they start a vocational path at an early age and never even learn all the subjects we have to learn.

there could be worse scare tactics though.. in reality we never had a head start. britain started the industrial revolution. our country is also barely over 200 yrs old. everyone else had the head start. we just caught up and left them in the dirt.

[Clandestino]

Because we are living off of the past in many respects with regards to our educational, capital, and political systems. Also, because at least up until now, we have been rather adept at attracting intelligent people from around the world to move to this country, study here, and then stay here.

This country has a nagging tendency to devote 95% of its attention span to matters of belief, matters which ultimtately turn into a spectator sport in the media while devoting 5%, if that, to matters of some import. And I don't mean killing Arabs and other bad darkies.

K-12 education in this country has been on a rather marked decline since the 1960s. We seem to be moving towards a feudal style society in which the (relative) few enjoy a bounty of wealth while the ignorant masses find themselves working more and more for less and less.

Basically, I see little reason to be proud of the state of American education, unless you are of the jingoistic knee-jerk sort.

what's with the brick?

[SPARKY]

i think it is a scare tactic for everyone to get an education... in many euro countries they start a vocational path at an early age and never even learn all the subjects we have to learn.

there could be worse scare tactics though.. in reality we never had a head start. britain started the industrial revolution. our country is also barely over 200 yrs old. everyone else had the head start. we just caught up and left them in the dirt.

What's a HS diploma worth nowadays in the US?

[Clandestino]

What's a HS diploma worth nowadays in the US?

jobwise, not much. which means so many people have them. to get ahead you need better than a h.s. diploma. employers can now be picky and choosy. back in the day, a h.s. diploma was something bc not many had them. bachelors are going to be the same thing in the future. basically now a h.s. diploma is just a ticket to college.

[SPARKY]

Not everyone goes to college. What then?

[Clandestino]

Not everyone goes to college. What then?

they can still succeed, but most likely it would require them to start their own business or work from the very, very, very bottom up. it can be done of course. nothing is impossible in american. bill gates never graduated from college, mark cuban, etc.. the list goes on and on..

[SPARKY]

Actually I believe Cuban graduated from IU. As for Gates, his background was not that of the average HS graduate and he did at least spend some time at Harvard.

[Clandestino]

Actually I believe Cuban graduated from IU. As for Gates, his background was not that of the average HS graduate and he did at least spend some time at Harvard.

bush: but he didn't graduate. and what kind of grades did he make? because we all know that just attending an ivy league school means nothing... at least that is what everyone says about bush.

yeah, my mistake on cuban. it was grad school he dropped out of..

[SPARKY]

The point is that those careers which offer the prospect of significant income growth and good employment prospects in this country tend to require at a minimum an undergrad degree. And an undergrad degree itself isn't much anymore.

As for the average HS grad, what do they have to look forward to? The occupations for which they are qualified tend to be those which offer the prospect of stagnant if not declining real wages.

Now when you think about the fact that well over half of HS students end their formal learning after HS that does not paint a pretty picture.

As for entrepreneurial opportunities in this country, sure, there are plenty, but not everyone can be a Gates or a Walton.

[Clandestino]

The point is that those careers which offer the prospect of significant income growth and good employment prospects in this country tend to require at a minimum an undergrad degree. And an undergrad degree itself isn't much anymore.

As for the average HS grad, what do they have to look forward to? The occupations for which they are qualified tend to be those which offer the prospect of stagnant if not declining real wages.

Now when you think about the fact that well over half of HS students end their formal learning after HS that does not paint a pretty picture.

As for entrepreneurial opportunities in this country, sure, there are plenty, but not everyone can be a Gates or a Walton.

yes, i agree with what you said, but what you say doesn't prove that american education is declining. look at our universities... full of foreign students from all over the world.

[SPARKY]

yes, i agree with what you said, but what you say doesn't prove that american education is declining. look at our universities... full of foreign students from all over the world.

Um that proves my point. K-12 education in this country is so sorry that students cannot capitalize on the opportunities in their own country past the HS level.

[Clandestino]

Um that proves my point. K-12 education in this country is so sorry that students cannot capitalize on the opportunities in their own country past the HS level.

i see it differently. i see it as everyone having that level of education, so you need more to stand out.

in many other european countries you don't even atten high school like we do. most stop at 16. and before that, usually, a little past elementary, they choose a vocational path. they are screwed from that point on. they know they will never attend a university.

[SPARKY]

...and the way to "stand out" today is to attain an undergrad, if not graduate level education.

[Clandestino]

...and the way to "stand out" today is to attain an undergrad, if not graduate level education.

yes, exactly... and the only way to do that is to get a high school diploma first!

[Extra Stout]

i see it differently. i see it as everyone having that level of education, so you need more to stand out.

in many other european countries you don't even atten high school like we do. most stop at 16. and before that, usually, a little past elementary, they choose a vocational path. they are screwed from that point on. they know they will never attend a university.And yet, despite thinning out the "talent pool," they produce more qualified college graduates per capita by far.

Hell, China and India crank out more engineers per capita than we do.

The only reason we're still on top is because our grandparents gave us such a huge head start. The past two or three generations of Americans haven't been worth shit. The American Dream has changed from working hard to carve out a decent life to getting paid for doing nothing, and it shows.

[SPARKY]

So what? Only a relative small minority attain that. The majority have to rely on a HS education which is declining in quality.

[Clandestino]

And yet, despite thinning out the "talent pool," they produce more qualified college graduates per capita by far.

Hell, China and India crank out more engineers per capita than we do.

The only reason we're still on top is because our grandparents gave us such a huge head start. The past two or three generations of Americans haven't been worth shit. The American Dream has changed from working hard to carve out a decent life to getting paid for doing nothing, and it shows.

but china and india can't even feed their own people! great example buddy...

[Extra Stout]

yes, exactly... and the only way to do that is to get a high school diploma first!
But these days, a high school diploma is useful for little else but getting into some form of higher education.

Our work force is not very skilled compared to our competitors.

[Extra Stout]

but china and india can't even feed their own people! great example buddy...Yes, it is a great example that backward, third-world nations have superior educational systems to our own. It's the best possible example.

America is great right now for the same reason Paris Hilton is rich.

I know some engineers from India -- well, yeah, they're everywhere. They explain to me that the difference is in upbringing -- their parents drive into them to educational achievement is EVERYTHING if they want to make something of themselves. Laziness in their studies is SEVERELY punished.

American parents care more about their kids' self-esteem, living vicariously through their sports activities, and most of all lavishing them with material goods either so that they can be left alone to watch more TV and have fun, or to assuage their guilt for making work the top priority.

So our kids grow up with shitty values, and themselves raise kids with shitty values. We rot from the core, much like the Romans did.

That, by the way, is what drives these religious fundamentalists. Their brand of religion isn't working anymore in raising families against the rot of secular culture, so their behavior is typical of what humans do when a behavior no longer produces the same feedback. They get extreme in that same behavior.

[scott]

yes, i agree with what you said, but what you say doesn't prove that american education is declining. look at our universities... full of foreign students from all over the world.

There are plenty of statistics available that "prove" that American education is declining - most notably Department of Education reports from both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

You can either 1) do a little research and figure this out yourself, 2) believe us when we say that American education is on the decline, 3) continue believing we are the world's smartest people and that status quo is sufficient.

[The Ressurrected One]

There are plenty of statistics available that "prove" that American education is declining - most notably Department of Education reports from both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

You can either 1) do a little research and figure this out yourself, 2) believe us when we say that American education is on the decline, 3) continue believing we are the world's smartest people and that status quo is sufficient.
I agree scott. However, the important issue is, why is it in decline and how do we restore public education to it's former glory?

Personally, I believe the public school system was coopted by the Left and turned into a liberal indoctrination laboratory. I think the NEA and the Department of Education need to be disbanded and defunded and that control of the schools needs to be put back at a local level where it belongs.

:)

[scott]

I agree scott. However, the important issue is, why is it in decline and how do we restore public education to it's former glory?

Personally, I believe the public school system was coopted by the Left and turned into a liberal indoctrination laboratory. I think the NEA and the Department of Education need to be disbanded and defunded and that control of the schools needs to be put back at a local level where it belongs.

:)

I'd like to see it go a step further, with the complete privitization of schools. What K-12 education lacks in this country is competition. There is no incentive for schools and teachers to do anything more than achieve status quo.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'd like to see it go a step further, with the complete privitization of schools. What K-12 education lacks in this country is competition. There is no incentive for schools and teachers to do anything more than achieve status quo.
That'd be fine with me. Localized schools were, more or less, when you didn't have the State and Federal Teacher's unions or the State and Federal Education agencies dictating your every move. Local communities could tailor curriculum to suit the population they served.

But, I'd be all for complete privitization.

We (well, my beautiful wife) home school.

[Clandestino]

But these days, a high school diploma is useful for little else but getting into some form of higher education.

Our work force is not very skilled compared to our competitors.
no, our workforce is super skilled, they just charge too much.. why would a company pay an american 50 bux an hr when they could pay a chinese or indian 2-6 bux an hour for the same work?

[Clandestino]

Yes, it is a great example that backward, third-world nations have superior educational systems to our own. It's the best possible example.

America is great right now for the same reason Paris Hilton is rich.

I know some engineers from India -- well, yeah, they're everywhere. They explain to me that the difference is in upbringing -- their parents drive into them to educational achievement is EVERYTHING if they want to make something of themselves. Laziness in their studies is SEVERELY punished.

American parents care more about their kids' self-esteem, living vicariously through their sports activities, and most of all lavishing them with material goods either so that they can be left alone to watch more TV and have fun, or to assuage their guilt for making work the top priority.

So our kids grow up with shitty values, and themselves raise kids with shitty values. We rot from the core, much like the Romans did.

That, by the way, is what drives these religious fundamentalists. Their brand of religion isn't working anymore in raising families against the rot of secular culture, so their behavior is typical of what humans do when a behavior no longer produces the same feedback. They get extreme in that same behavior.

tell me why if our educational system is so inferior that thousands of foreigners choose to get an american education?

actually, anyone tell me. also, if our k-12 education was so horrible how can americans graduate from college?

and in many other countries education is free or costs very little. so, why do the rich foreign parents send their students to america for an education

[Bandit2981]

i dont think its all bad in the US, but perhaps the ratio of excellent educational institutions to the number of crappy ones in the US has a greater disparity than those of other countries. i agree with Extra Stout in a way, it might be more of the attitude and personality of americans that effects their education rather than the actual schools themselves. people here might not take as much pride or extend enough effort into getting a higher education than the people in other countries.

[scott]

Clandestino, please familiarize yourself with what a "non sequitur" is, re-read your posts, and ask yourself if you are getting your point across correctly. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your incoherent rambling isn't just a typo before I respond.

[Clandestino]

i have said americans have a good educational system. if we didn't, many foreigners would not be coming to our schools to learn. they would stay in their free to low cost ones. also, since we must have good universities, we therefore must have good k-12. to graduate from college you had to have learned something in your 13 years of pre-university education. you can't be totally retarded and just go into college and graduate.

[scott]

Since you evidently didn't take the time to research, and you are still unwilling to take the word of people who clearly know what they are talking about (perhaps simply by reading previous threads on this very message board), I am tempted to let you continue living in your dream world.

Instead, I will once again provide statistics on the failing US education system.

* A 1993 study by the U.S. Department of Education found that 90 million adults - 47 percent of the population of the United States - demonstrate low levels of literacy. The level of literacy among adults had fallen by 4 percent since 1986.

* Only 15 percent of college faculty members say that their students are adequately prepared in mathematics and quantitative reasonings lower proportion than among higher-education faculty in Hong Kong, Korea, Sweden, Russian, Mexico, Japan, Chile, Israel, or Australia. Only one in five faculty members thinks students have adequate writing and speaking skills.

* Despite the growing importance of scientific knowledge, surveys have found that Americans are woefully ignorant of basic scientific facts. A majority of Americans,. for example, do not know that the earth and sun are part of the Milky Way galaxy, and a third of them think humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. A 1994 survey by Louis Harris & Associates and the American Museum of Natural History found that only about one adult in five scored 60 percent or better on a test of basic knowledge of subjects like space, animals, the environment, diseases, and earth.

* In the late 1980s, a national survey of high school seniors found that fewer than half could define even basic economic terms. Nearly two thirds of the seniors were unable to correctly define "profit," and less than half could define a "government budget deficit." Most seniors were also baffled by the concept of "inflation." The author of the "Report Card on the Economic Literacy of U.S. High School Students" concluded that "our schools are producing a nation of economic illiterates," and that the level of economic knowledge of students who had the benefit of twelve years of education is "shocking."" Especially damning was the finding that even students who took basic high school economics answered only 52 percent of the questions correctly. Students who took "consumer economics" got only 40 percent of the answers correct, while students who took social studies courses were right only 37 percent of the time. A 1992 survey by the National Center for Research in Economic Education and the Gallup Organization yielded similar results. High school seniors answered basic economic questions correctly only 35 percent of the time.

* SAT verbal scores have dropped from a mean of 478 in 1962 to 423 in 1994-a drop of 54 points. The SAT mean math score has fallen from 502 to 479 - a drop of 23 points. While math scores have risen 8 points since 1984, they are still below 1974 levels. The national verbal average has fallen 3 points since 1984. During the same period (1960-90), spending on elementary and secondary education increased more than 200 percent, after inflation. Class size has decreased by one third, enrollment has declined by 7 percent, and the number of teachers has increased by 17 percent. Moreover, the decline in test scores came at a time when average teacher salaries and the percentage of teachers with advanced degrees both tripled.

Some harder facts for you:

Department of Education statistics show that our top 12th grade students are last and next to last in math and science, respectively, compared to other industrialized nations. Elementary school is the only place where students (all students) seem to be doing "okay" where they rank 12th out of 26 nations in math and 3rd out of 26 in science.

But somewhere along the line something goes wrong, because our 8th graders rank 28th out of 41 in math (with a below average score) and 17 out of 41 in science. Things get worse by the time our kids get to 12th grade, where they rank 19th out of 21 in math and 16 out of 21 in science.


-------

The fact that our HS graduates are able to gain admission to college's with looser admission standards is not a measure of sucess. The only objective means of gauging the performance of our Education system is to look at time-series (how we perform over time) and cross-sectional (how we perform versus other industrialized nations) data. Both measures show a decline.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao @ Scooter just now figuring out Clandestino is what Tpark used to be in this forum.

[Clandestino]

Some harder facts for you:

Department of Education statistics show that our top 12th grade students are last and next to last in math and science, respectively, compared to other industrialized nations. Elementary school is the only place where students (all students) seem to be doing "okay" where they rank 12th out of 26 nations in math and 3rd out of 26 in science.

But somewhere along the line something goes wrong, because our 8th graders rank 28th out of 41 in math (with a below average score) and 17 out of 41 in science. Things get worse by the time our kids get to 12th grade, where they rank 19th out of 21 in math and 16 out of 21 in science.


-------

The fact that our HS graduates are able to gain admission to college's with looser admission standards is not a measure of sucess. The only objective means of gauging the performance of our Education system is to look at time-series (how we perform over time) and cross-sectional (how we perform versus other industrialized nations) data. Both measures show a decline.

thanks for the stats. they proved my point more than anything. especially the last two. like i said earlier... in many countries, regular education stops at the elementary level, then students are put on different paths. some are chosen to pursue a vocational path and the others are set on an academic path. at the elementary school level our students are still doing well.

so, what happens by the 8th grade? what happens is that they no longer have all the riffraff taking the academic tests that they compare to the u.s. students. in the u.s. everyone remains part of the testing. the problem is exacerbated in the 12th grade bc almost no countries educated til they are 17/18 like our seniors. most european countries school ends at 16. only the smart ones get to the move on to another 2 years of college prep school(our jr and sr year). in the u.s. all the riffraff is still in school skewing the stats.

so, yeah, thanks for the stats and proving my point.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

It's so useless.

"The sky is blue, and here's this picture to proove it"

"Oh thanks for the picture that prooves my point. If you see, the sun is out, at night the sky is not blue. So, once again, thanks for the picture that prooves my point"

[Clandestino]

okay, i guess you can't understand that if there are 2 schools with 100 students each. one school has to test all 100 and the other school gets to test the 30 best students. the school with the smaller group will have higher scores.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess you don't understand thats not the way these stats are compiled.

[SPARKY]

How have you proven that the 'K-12 education system' in this country has not declined in performance over the last 40 years?

[SPARKY]

tell me why if our educational system is so inferior that thousands of foreigners choose to get an american education?

actually, anyone tell me. also, if our k-12 education was so horrible how can americans graduate from college?

and in many other countries education is free or costs very little. so, why do the rich foreign parents send their students to america for an education


I haven't seen anyone posit in this thread that American colleges and universities are inferior to their global counterparts.

[Clandestino]

I guess you don't understand thats not the way these stats are compiled.

well, tell me manny. how do they get the 17/18 year old German kid to come back to school to take a fucking math and science test when he graduated 16 years old and has been apprenticing as a mechanic for the past 2 years... how do they do that? stfu, you have no idea how they test.

[Clandestino]

I haven't seen anyone posit in this thread that American colleges and universities are inferior to their global counterparts.

us kid gets us k-12 education. he can pass college with the education obtained from k-12. can't be as bad as you say.

[Clandestino]

when i was in kinder, we pretty much just played and slept and learned abcs, 123s. now, they are using computers and reading.

[SPARKY]

us kid gets us k-12 education. he can pass college with the education obtained from k-12. can't be as bad as you say.

Selection. Less than half of American HS students go on to pursue a 4 year collegiate education, let alone complete one.

I'd say that most manage to make it through an undergrad program in spite of the education they received in K-12.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok. US kids are definetly the smartest in the world. I don't know why I let facts get in the way of listening to Clandestino.

[Clandestino]

Ok. US kids are definetly the smartest in the world. I don't know why I let facts get in the way of listening to Clandestino.

i said the stats are skewed.

funny that you have no comment on the who is tested in our country versus theirs.

[SPARKY]

In addition, foreign students tend to be attracted to American graduate programs moreso than undergraduate programs.

[Useruser666]

I think there is a fundamental difference between the goals of the US education system and that of many other countries. To me the US system tries to push everyone to certain level of achievement, then offer at the student's choice, a vast amount of possibilities to further their education. In other countries, students are more catagorized by what abilities they are percieved to have, and then educated in a way tailored to that classification. I think a mix of these styles might be the right answer.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey stupid:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/2005021.pdf

The United States had an enrollment rate of 78 percent in 2001
for youth ages 15 to 19—the age range that corresponds most
closely with upper secondary education in the countries presented.
The enrollment rate for the United States for this age
group was higher than the corresponding rates for Canada, Italy,
the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom, but lower than
the rates for France and Germany.
Stop trying to pull shit out of your ass.

[Clandestino]

Hey stupid:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/2005021.pdf

Stop trying to pull shit out of your ass.

I guess you failed to read this part dumbfuck:


Differences in the structure of countries' education systems often make international comparisons difficult.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

No, I read it, but I also read past it.



Differences in the structure of countries’ education systems often
make international comparisons difficult. To improve the comparability
of education indicators, the OECD worked with countries
to standardize their education systems into the ISCED, as
described above. Using the OECD ISCED classifications as a starting
point, the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)
worked with education professionals in other G8 countries to
create a general overview of each country’s education system.
As an aid to the reader, schematics of how the ISCED applies to
each of the G8 countries are provided in the appendix, accompanied
by text describing each system in greater detail.

I guess my Super United States Education was enough for me to grasp reading comprehension. They equalized the differences in the report.

Anything else?

[Clandestino]

i failed to see equalized.. i saw "to improve the comparibility," but that shows the stats aren't equal. brush up on the reading comprehension.

[MannyIsGod]

i failed to see equalized.. i saw "to improve the comparibility," but that shows the stats aren't equal. brush up on the reading comprehension.
Are you going to argue semantics in order to try to prove a point that is unprovable?

[Clandestino]

how can things be equal when their vo-tech students finish school at 16?

[Clandestino]

Are you going to argue semantics in order to try to prove a point that is unprovable?

and who the one trying to argue the definition of evil a few weeks ago! :lmao

[MannyIsGod]

how can things be equal when their vo-tech students finish school at 16?
Education in Germany is compulsory until the age of 18. You might want to check your info.

Tell you what, using your Super United States Education, do some reading and come back and tell us what you find.

[MannyIsGod]

and who the one trying to argue the definition of evil a few weeks ago! :lmao
I was, in a debate about the word evil. I can totaly see how that is relevant here.

Go to dictionary.com and look up semantics.

[Clandestino]

Education in Germany is compulsory until the age of 18. You might want to check your info.

Tell you what, using your Super United States Education, do some reading and come back and tell us what you find.

yes, but at 16 the vo-tech students mainly work and their schooling is part of their trade. it is not traditional school like we are attending at the ages of 16-18. that is the difference. those students are taking the academic comparison tests. i have talked and drank with many of these germans. there are germans at utsa. find some and ask them about this. you are wrong.

[SPARKY]

http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/intvisa/figure1.jpg

I'm sure I can find plenty of similiar data for other science disciplines as well as for engineering ones.

Now if American students have the advantage of a great K-12 education on average as well as the added advantage of great undergraduate programs here in the United States why is it that more and more they are apparently unable to take advantage of such opportunities at the graduate level?

[MannyIsGod]

yes, but at 16 the vo-tech students mainly work and their schooling is part of their trade. it is not traditional school like we are attending at the ages of 16-18. that is the difference. those students are taking the academic comparison tests. i have talked and drank with many of these germans. there are germans at utsa. find some and ask them about this. you are wrong.
Oh, why didn't you say that before? Had you mentoined your undertaking of a scientific study regarding the differences between the German and American education systems, I would have never questioned you.

Who doesn't see how your impressions based off of a few Germans are definetly better than data acquired in the manner in those studys?

[Clandestino]

http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/intvisa/figure1.jpg

I'm sure I can find plenty of similiar data for other science disciplines as well as for engineering ones.

Now if American students have the advantage of a great K-12 education on average as well as the added advantage of great undergraduate programs here in the United States why is it that more and more they are apparently unable to take advantage of such opportunities at the graduate level?

all your graph shows is that more foreign students are choosing to pursue graduate degrees in physics.

[Extra Stout]

i have said americans have a good educational system. if we didn't, many foreigners would not be coming to our schools to learn.Yes, our universities are pretty good.


also, since we must have good universities, we therefore must have good k-12.This is one of the greatest non-sequiturs I ever have read.

It must be that quality American education you got.


to graduate from college you had to have learned something in your 13 years of pre-university education. you can't be totally retarded and just go into college and graduate.American students in American universities require more remedial classes and have lower retention rates than their foreign counterparts at American universities. While many Americans intrinsically have the aptitude to succeed in college, they must overcome inferior parenting and primary education to do so.

[Extra Stout]

all your graph shows is that more foreign students are choosing to pursue graduate degrees in physics.It's the same for pretty much any technical or professional field, except law.

We do crank out a lot of liberal arts graduates with no work skills, however.

So we have fewer and fewer American workers who can produce things, but a lot more who can analzye poetry, and better yet, who can sue the few who do produce things. Yeah, that will make us competitive in the 21st century economy.

[SPARKY]

all your graph shows is that more foreign students are choosing to pursue graduate degrees in physics.

...and what about American students?

[ChumpDumper]

The decline of US student enrollment into physics programs is inversely proportional to the rise of US students appearing on reality TV shows. If you could somehow make a reality show about physics students....

[Clandestino]

The decline of US student enrollment into physics programs is inversely proportional to the rise of US students appearing on reality TV shows. If you could somehow make a reality show about physics students....

that is fucking great! :lmao

[scott]

thanks for the stats. they proved my point more than anything. especially the last two. like i said earlier... in many countries, regular education stops at the elementary level, then students are put on different paths. some are chosen to pursue a vocational path and the others are set on an academic path. at the elementary school level our students are still doing well.

so, what happens by the 8th grade? what happens is that they no longer have all the riffraff taking the academic tests that they compare to the u.s. students. in the u.s. everyone remains part of the testing. the problem is exacerbated in the 12th grade bc almost no countries educated til they are 17/18 like our seniors. most european countries school ends at 16. only the smart ones get to the move on to another 2 years of college prep school(our jr and sr year). in the u.s. all the riffraff is still in school skewing the stats.

so, yeah, thanks for the stats and proving my point.

You clearly failed to read this sentence:


Department of Education statistics show that our top 12th grade students are last and next to last in math and science, respectively, compared to other industrialized nations.

The means our best students are not as smart as the best student from other countries. The differences in structure between countries is irrelevant in this comparison.

[scott]

Extra Stout makes very good points, likely to be further misinterpreted by Clandestino.

The fact the average American college student now takes 5 years to complete a 4 year degree also serves as an indication of the declining K-12 education system. Couple this with the percentage of American students who require remedial courses along with the surveys in which college professors say students are not adequetely prepared for the collegiate level, and you have a pretty non-scientific case for the fact that our K-12 education system is on the decline.

Clandestino, I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but all signs point to you being a complete moron.

[Clandestino]

Extra Stout makes very good points, likely to be further misinterpreted by Clandestino.

The fact the average American college student now takes 5 years to complete a 4 year degree also serves as an indication of the declining K-12 education system. Couple this with the percentage of American students who require remedial courses along with the surveys in which college professors say students are not adequetely prepared for the collegiate level, and you have a pretty non-scientific case for the fact that our K-12 education system is on the decline.

Clandestino, I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but all signs point to you being a complete moron.

i can't be too much of a moron. i am completing my 120 hr degree program in 3 years... speak 3 languages fluently and can get around in 2 others.... the list goes on...

[scott]

Well, then I am impressed at your ability to be a moron despite such an otherwise dandy resume.

[ididnotnothat]

Well, then I am impressed at your ability to be a moron despite such an otherwise dandy resume.


^^RACK 'IM!!^^

[The Ressurrected One]

Well, then I am impressed at your ability to be a moron despite such an otherwise dandy resume.
Wow! Is this the same scott? Touche'!

[Useruser666]

I think the system is not perfect, but is very capable of making the changes necessary to improve. That is what makes the US such a world power, adaptation.

[Clandestino]

what i don't understand is if these fucks think the u.s. is so terrible in every aspect from education to foreign policy why don't they move? they don't seem to be doing anything about perceived problems except bitch in this forum. dan jr's

[jalbre6]

what i don't understand is if these fucks think the u.s. is so terrible in every aspect from education to foreign policy why don't they move? they don't seem to be doing anything about perceived problems except bitch in this forum. dan jr's


We're losing our edge in education and the current foreign policy isn't very popular with a little less than half of the general population, which is a polite way of putting that since a little over half supports it, it's controversial. Terrible isn't the right word. Unsatisfactory probably fits a little better.

What kind of example are lawmakers showing here, debating the creation v. evolution theories and how much ass a 17 year old cheerleader can wiggle? No wonder education needs reform.

[SPARKY]

High-Tech Brain Drain
May 5, 2005; Page A14
The Wall Street Journal

Bill Gates probably didn't shock anyone last week when he said companies like Microsoft have difficulty finding enough qualified Americans to hire. That's old hat. But he turned a few heads when he said immigration policies are threatening U.S. competitiveness like never before. Asked how he would change current law, Mr. Gates replied, "I'd certainly get rid of the H1-B visa caps. That's one of the easiest decisions."

The government grants what are known as H-1B guest-worker visas to immigrants in specialty fields like math, science, engineering and medicine. But the number of such visas issued annually is capped at 65,000. That quota is not only unnecessary but ridiculously inadequate, as evidenced by the fact that the 2005 limit was reached on the very first day of the government's fiscal year.

Business leaders have long complained that these caps, combined with a U.S. education system that's not producing enough science and engineering talent, will inevitably affect domestic growth and global competitiveness in the technology sector. The U.S. ranks sixth world-wide in the number of people graduating with bachelor degrees in engineering. Meanwhile, China is graduating some four times as many engineers as the U.S., and Japan -- with less than half of our population -- graduates twice as many engineers as we do.

According to a report by the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles, the percentage of incoming undergraduates planning to major in computer science declined by more than 60% between 2000 and 2004, and is now 70% below its peak in the early 1980s.

So it's no wonder that companies like Microsoft, Intel and IBM have set up research operations in China and India, which also leads the U.S. in engineering grads. But outsourcing isn't always about cutting costs. Mr. Gates told National Public Radio that he's not looking for cheap labor.

"We would have done some work in those markets [China and India] regardless," said Mr. Gates. "You want to have some diversity, particularly in research itself, where you can draw on the talent pool that's there. But there's no doubt that if we had easier hiring here in the U.S., we would be doing more in the U.S. and less outside the U.S."

With so much of the immigration debate focused on low-skilled workers, it's easy to forget that artificial curbs on the entry of foreign professionals and international students can restrain industry's ability to acquire intellectual capital. Immigration policies that limit access to global talent in a global marketplace won't keep U.S. innovators and entrepreneurs on the cutting edge. Nor will they help us continue as the world's science and technology leader.



http://stamp-search.com/images/con0202god-bless-usa.jpg

[SPARKY]

what i don't understand is if these fucks think the u.s. is so terrible in every aspect from education to foreign policy why don't they move? they don't seem to be doing anything about perceived problems except bitch in this forum. dan jr's

What I don't understand is why you do not recognize your ignorance in regards to the subject at hand.

Instead of opening your mind all you offer is reactionary blather.

Stop wasting this forum's collective time.

[Clandestino]

the article only says that not many american students don't want to major in math or science. it doesn't mean they are less educated.

[SPARKY]

So American students are turning down lucrative career opportunities in their own country because...?

[Clandestino]

actually bill gates is full of shit. it is not that there aren't enough people, it is that he can pay the h1bs way less. it is also why many companies are outsourcing. cheap labor for the same work. outsourcing is not just for factory jobs.

[scott]

.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[Clandestino]

laugh all you want... i know bill is full of shit, but i could care less. i'm a shareholder of msft... he will say anything to make a buck...and that is all that matters..shareholder profit. outsource, outsource, outsource... as long as the stock goes up, it is good..

[SPARKY]

actually bill gates is full of shit. it is not that there aren't enough people, it is that he can pay the h1bs way less. it is also why many companies are outsourcing. cheap labor for the same work. outsourcing is not just for factory jobs.

Did you miss the part about the US lagging behind a number of countries in the number of engineering and science graduates?

Also, if those Indian and Chinese engineers and scientists do not end up in the US, then they'll end up elsewhere, perhaps in Europe or Canada. As much as it may shock you the world does not totally revolve around the United States. If this nation continues to see its scientific knowledge base decline due to a poor public education system and some misguided nationalistic protectionist stupidity then it is going to pay the price soon enough.

I'm surprised that for someone who is so sure of American superiority you are afraid of seeing Americans compete with scientific talent from abroad...

[Clandestino]

where did i say i was afraid of seeing americans compete with scientific talent from abroad?

[SPARKY]

Here:


actually bill gates is full of shit. it is not that there aren't enough people, it is that he can pay the h1bs way less. it is also why many companies are outsourcing. cheap labor for the same work. outsourcing is not just for factory jobs.

[Clandestino]

i still fail to see where i said i was afraid of them... i just said that bill gates is just trying to get cheap labor. it is not wrong. as long as microsoft stock goes up, i'm happy.

[SPARKY]

The United States cannot produce enough students who are capable of taking advantage of undergraduate and graduate level engineering and science programs so we have to import students from abroad to fill those roles. Then because of our fear that those "furriners" are taking our jobs we limit how many can stay. So they go back to their own lesser developed countries or perhaps they go to a developed one.

Don't tell me that American kids aren't interested in studying engineering. It's not a secret what an entry level chemical or electrical engineer fresh out of undergrad can make. The real problem lies in how many are actually prepared for an undergraduate engineering program, which takes us back to the sorry state of K-12 public education in the US...

[spurster]

I agree that Bill wants cheap, young, around-the-clock programmers.

This is the other end of the education problem. With outsourcing, WalMarting, importing cheap labor, and a general overall race-to-the-bottom, where is the big incentive to get an education?

[SPARKY]

actually bill gates is full of shit. it is not that there aren't enough people, it is that he can pay the h1bs way less. it is also why many companies are outsourcing. cheap labor for the same work. outsourcing is not just for factory jobs.

[SPARKY]

I agree that Bill wants cheap, young, around-the-clock programmers.

This is the other end of the education problem. With outsourcing, WalMarting, importing cheap labor, and a general overall race-to-the-bottom, where is the big incentive to get an education?


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos029.htm




Earnings

Median annual earnings of chemical engineers were $72,490 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $58,320 and $88,830. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $48,450, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $107,520.

According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in chemical engineering received starting offers averaging $52,384 a year, master’s degree candidates averaged $57,857, and Ph.D. candidates averaged $70,729.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos031.htm




Earnings

Median annual earnings of electrical engineers were $68,180 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $54,550 and $84,670. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $44,780, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $100,980. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of electrical engineers in 2002 were:


Scientific research and development services $77,410
Semiconductor and other electronic component manufacturing 72,670
Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution 71,640
Navigational, measuring, electromedical, and control instruments manufacturing 70,430
Architectural, engineering, and related services 66,980


Median annual earnings of electronics engineers, except computer, were $69,930 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $55,930 and $85,980. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,310, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $103,860. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of electronics engineers in 2002 were:


Federal government $78,830
Architectural, engineering, and related services 72,850
Navigational, measuring, electromedical, and control instruments manufacturing 70,950
Semiconductor and other electronic component manufacturing 70,800
Wired telecommunications carriers 62,670


According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in electrical/electronics and communications engineering received starting offers averaging $49,794 a year; master’s degree candidates averaged $64,556; and Ph.D. candidates averaged $74,283.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos262.htm


Earnings

Median annual earnings of biomedical engineers were $60,410 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $58,320 and $88,830. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $48,450, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $107,520.

According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in biomedical engineering received starting offers averaging $39,126 a year, and master’s degree candidates, on average, were offered $61,000.

[spurster]

Several things.

The proportion of students who have the aptitude to be engineers will be low regardless of well our education system works.

Even if that were not the case, there is not an infinite demand for engineers. The fact that you have to point to an elite field for good salaries should tell us something.

I hate to say it, but engineers are next (if not already) for outsourcing..

[Extra Stout]

I hate to say it, but engineers are next (if not already) for outsourcing..Oh, they already outsource a lot of engineering work.

However, as of now you can only count on the third-world engineers to do number-crunching kinds of work or rudimentary design, at least in my field. They still have no concept whatsoever of things like functionality, reliability, or project execution. That's still a generation away.

[SPARKY]

Several things.

The proportion of students who have the aptitude to be engineers will be low regardless of well our education system works.

You can say that about other professions as well. Apparently the difference is that for engineering, the students are not as well prepared. That takes us back to the education those students receive prior to college.



Even if that were not the case, there is not an infinite demand for engineers. The fact that you have to point to an elite field for good salaries should tell us something.

Sure, the system is not working. We have to fill the demand in this country for engineering talent from abroad. Even with such occupations offering rather attractive salaries.



I hate to say it, but engineers are next (if not already) for outsourcing..

..as if this country was even producing enough to begin with.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'm not really that interested in the debate over our educational system. It is, in my mind, fatally flawed and no amount of "fixing" is going to revive it.

We stopped teaching children way back when and set our sights on indoctrinating through the expression of social ideals.

That's why Johnny can't read, make change, or know that if you take a hair dryer into the bathtub with you, you're gonna die.

We've become more concerned with whether or not Johnny is socially aware and sensitive to the diversity of those around him and, whether or not Johnny's own esteem is adequately considered.

Stigmatism and shame have been tossed aside -- I think they had a place.

[Extra Stout]

I'm not really that interested in the debate over our educational system. It is, in my mind, fatally flawed and no amount of "fixing" is going to revive it.

We stopped teaching children way back when and set our sights on indoctrinating through the expression of social ideals.

That's why Johnny can't read, make change, or know that if you take a hair dryer into the bathtub with you, you're gonna die.

We've become more concerned with whether or not Johnny is socially aware and sensitive to the diversity of those around him and, whether or not Johnny's own esteem is adequately considered.

Stigmatism and shame have been tossed aside -- I think they had a place.For all its flaws, NCLB forces schools to get away from all that pansy liberal bullshit and teach. Yeah, they're teaching the performance tests, but at least you know if a kid can pass that test, he's learned something.

A lot of teachers and principals are fighting it, because they want to teach the "fun," "creative," "socially aware" curriculum, but then when their test scores are miserable, the administration has to tell them either that they have to get with the program or the districts will find somebody who will.

Expect lots of unemployed liberal educators in the next several years sniveling and whining.

[Clandestino]

and little pansy kids aren't even keeping score in sports anymore! that drives me nuts...

and no spanking anymore! what is that all about.. i asked my girlfriends nieces and nephews what is more effective, time outs or spankings.. .they said spankings.

[The Ressurrected One]

For all its flaws, NCLB forces schools to get away from all that pansy liberal bullshit and teach. Yeah, they're teaching the performance tests, but at least you know if a kid can pass that test, he's learned something.

A lot of teachers and principals are fighting it, because they want to teach the "fun," "creative," "socially aware" curriculum, but then when their test scores are miserable, the administration has to tell them either that they have to get with the program or the districts will find somebody who will.

Expect lots of unemployed liberal educators in the next several years sniveling and whining.
I'm not hopeful...but, it's a nice idea.

[MannyIsGod]

Man, more and more this forum just makes me laugh everyday. Liberal social indoctornation is now at the root of our flawed education system? Amazing!

[Clandestino]

according to most people in this thread our education system is failing. liberal teaching has been on the rise more and more.. is it related?

[The Ressurrected One]

Man, more and more this forum just makes me laugh everyday. Liberal social indoctornation is now at the root of our flawed education system? Amazing!
Yep. Simply amazing we've allowed it.

[SPARKY]

Man, more and more this forum just makes me laugh everyday. Liberal social indoctornation is now at the root of our flawed education system? Amazing!

I would say that using schools to push social agendas of the left and right is a contributing factor to the poor performance of K-12 education in this country, as well as the reluctance to reintroduce the concept of failure to students.

[Extra Stout]

Man, more and more this forum just makes me laugh everyday. Liberal social indoctornation is now at the root of our flawed education system? Amazing!

I would say that "liberal social indoctrination" in the schools is a symptom of a value shift that adversely affects the way young people grow up in this country.

It used to be important to raise disciplined children with a strong work ethic and valuable skills. Now, parents let their kids do more as they please to avoid conflict, and don't place any expectations on them, in order to avoid unpleasant aspects of parenting like discipline. They don't want to "stifle" their kids' "creative spark." "Experts" actually encourage this. Well, yeah, parents may end up with a less stressful home life, but then again, their kids can't do anything and end up living at home until they're 30.

Structure and discipline are discouraged because it thwarts "awareness" and "individuality." Great. So we raise a generation of kids who can express their individuality but can't hold a job. That's marvelous for civilization.

I understand there has to be a balance, but we've gone off the deep end.

[SPARKY]

I would say that "liberal social indoctrination" in the schools is a symptom of a value shift that adversely affects the way young people grow up in this country.

It used to be important to raise disciplined children with a strong work ethic and valuable skills. Now, parents let their kids do more as they please to avoid conflict, and don't place any expectations on them, in order to avoid unpleasant aspects of parenting like discipline. They don't want to "stifle" their kids' "creative spark." "Experts" actually encourage this. Well, yeah, parents may end up with a less stressful home life, but then again, their kids can't do anything and end up living at home until they're 30.

Structure and discipline are discouraged because it thwarts "awareness" and "individuality." Great. So we raise a generation of kids who can express their individuality but can't hold a job. That's marvelous for civilization.


Add to that an expectation that success is guaranteed, that we will be better off than our parents as a matter of birthright, and we find ourselves counting on some other country's children for the next generation of scientists and engineers.

[MannyIsGod]

I would say that using schools to push social agendas of the left and right is a contributing factor to the poor performance of K-12 education in this country, as well as the reluctance to reintroduce the concept of failure to students.
That I can agree with, but the concept that the left is the only one pushing social agendas (look at the freaking first post in this thread) in schools is downright idiocy.

[The Ressurrected One]

I would say that using schools to push social agendas of the left and right is a contributing factor to the poor performance of K-12 education in this country, as well as the reluctance to reintroduce the concept of failure to students.
Give me and example of a Conservative social agenda being "pushed" in schools?

Here's an interesting example of what I was talking about:

The Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20050502-102906-7310r.htm) reports that Montgomery County Public Schools (here in Maryland) have barred parents from sitting in on classes in which a new sex-education curriculum will be taught. This represents a departure from normal policy under which "classroom visits and conferences by parents and other persons in the school community are encouraged." The school system justifies the restriction in the case of sex-education on the theory that the parents' presence in this environment would have "a chilling effect" on frank discussion by students.

This rationale might be more compelling if the school system actually were interested in a frank exchange of ideas. However, such is not the case. In fact, teachers in the pilot program have been admonished not to offer any "information, interpretation, or examples" beyond what is prescribed when discussing sexual identity and orientation.

It appears, then, that Montgomery County's interest is in indoctrination, not discussion, and that parents are being excluded so that they will not discover the nature of the indoctrination their children are receiving. According to the Times, that indoctrination will include the following: gender identity is "a person's internal sense of knowing whether he or she is male or female;" "most experts in the field have concluded that sexual orientation is not a choice;" and (until it was deleted last month under pressure) "sex play with friends of the same gender is not uncommon during early adolescence."

As I mentioned, this is a "pilot" program. A "citizens advisory committee" is supposed to collect feedback from students, teachers, and parents and make a recommendation to the school board as to whether to implement the program county-wide. Which makes it seem particularly odd that parents will not be allowed to observe the program in action. Moreover, Michelle Turner of the Citizens for Responsible Curriculum says that teachers are refusing to supply parents with copies of the curriculum or the course resource materials. This looks like the nanny state with a twist -- a nanny who is partial to alternative life-styles.

Well yesterday, cooler heads prevailed. A federal court judge temporarily enjoined (http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20050505-115955-2689r.htm) the County from implementing the program, which was set to begin today. The injunction is for ten days, but the judge's ruling expresses deep concern about aspects of the course, and the school system apparently has decided to back down. Judge Alexander Williams, a Clinton appointee, wrote that the course:


"open[s] up the classroom to the subject of homosexuality, and specifically, the moral rightness of the homosexual lifestyle. However, [it] presents only one view on the subject -- that homosexuality is a natural and morally correct lifestyle -- to the exclusion of other perspectives. The public interest is served by preventing [school officials] from promoting particular religious beliefs in the public schools and preventing [the officials] from disseminating one-sided information on a controversial topic."

There's my example...let's have one from the other side now.

[SPARKY]

Give me and example of a Conservative social agenda being "pushed" in schools?

See the original subject of this thread.

[The Ressurrected One]

See the original subject of this thread.
From the original post:

While many call themselves creationists, who believe that God was the ultimate designer of all life, they are stopping short of saying creationism should be taught in schools.

"We're not against evolution," said Calvert. "But there is a lot of evidence that suggests that life is the product of intelligence. I think it is inappropriate for the state to prejudge the question whether we are the product of design or just an occurrence."

Debates over evolution are currently being waged in more than a dozen states, including Texas where one bill would allowing for creationism to be taught alongside evolution.
Sounds to me like they just want balance.

[SPARKY]

From the original post:

Sounds to me like they just want balance.


Ha. Nice try.

[MannyIsGod]

I would say that "liberal social indoctrination" in the schools is a symptom of a value shift that adversely affects the way young people grow up in this country.

It used to be important to raise disciplined children with a strong work ethic and valuable skills. Now, parents let their kids do more as they please to avoid conflict, and don't place any expectations on them, in order to avoid unpleasant aspects of parenting like discipline. They don't want to "stifle" their kids' "creative spark." "Experts" actually encourage this. Well, yeah, parents may end up with a less stressful home life, but then again, their kids can't do anything and end up living at home until they're 30.

Structure and discipline are discouraged because it thwarts "awareness" and "individuality." Great. So we raise a generation of kids who can express their individuality but can't hold a job. That's marvelous for civilization.

I understand there has to be a balance, but we've gone off the deep end.
First of all, this sounds (and I'm not saying you don't have a point) like nothing more than the traditional generational gripe that the new generation has it to easy.

When I was a kid I walked barefoot through snow etc.

I think children need to be held accountable. But I think the vast majority of schools in this country DO hold their children accountable. While this may very well be a contributing factor in the decline in places, I don't think it's the widespread problem it's being made out to be in this thread.

Many of the countries that are kicking our asses have socities that are far more to the left than the United States. That seems to at the very least weaken this theory.

[Extra Stout]

See the original subject of this thread.DING DING DING.

Dear conservatives:

I applaud your wish to raise your kids to have a healthy fear of God. However, that does not excuse your insistence upon living in a fantasy world.* That should be reserved for the realm of liberals.

* Yes, I believe in God, Jesus, the Apostles' and Nicene creeds, etc. etc. I don't believe in shutting my brain off when reality doesn't match up with my dogma. If Martin Luther had been that way, we'd all still be Catholic peasants saving up all our extra pennies to buy our dead relatives' way out of Purgatory.

[MannyIsGod]

Add to that an expectation that success is guaranteed, that we will be better off than our parents as a matter of birthright, and we find ourselves counting on some other country's children for the next generation of scientists and engineers.
BINGO!

[Extra Stout]

First of all, this sounds (and I'm not saying you don't have a point) like nothing more than the traditional generational gripe that the new generation has it to easy.

When I was a kid I walked barefoot through snow etc.

I think children need to be held accountable. But I think the vast majority of schools in this country DO hold their children accountable. While this may very well be a contributing factor in the decline in places, I don't think it's the widespread problem it's being made out to be in this thread.

Many of the countries that are kicking our asses have socities that are far more to the left than the United States. That seems to at the very least weaken this theory.Schools may attempt to hold kids accountable.

BUT PARENTS DON'T. And if parents don't, there is no way the educational system in this country can pick up that slack. Teaching is difficult enough without having to play mommy and daddy to a room of 20 kids every day as well.

In other countries to the left of us with better educational systems, yeah, they may have socialism, but they cut the bullshit and teach children math, science, proper language, history. They can do so because they have BOTH parental support and involvement. Here, either parents don't care or they think their child is perfect and blame the teacher for their child's every failing.

By the way, in a lot of European countries, there are educational crises as well, for some of the same reasons. It's not as if the EU has some huge advantage in the percentage of their citizens who get college degrees (I read they get 23% to our 27%).

Culture is our problem. Parents value their own comfort over raising their kids to be productive citizens. Getting back to NCLB, now parents have to accept that if their kid doesn't pass the performance exams, they're not going anywhere, and while they can bitch and moan at the teachers all day long, they better get involved and make sure their kid finds a way to pass that exam, whatever it takes.

Luckily, this age may be our cultural nadir for a while. The people born 1982 and later, so far, demographically appear to have values with regard to morals, work ethic, education, etc., more akin to the generation that grew up in the Depression than the Boomers, the "Me Generation," or the X'ers.

Once the Boomers start to die off in twenty years or so, maybe their values will die with them.

[Extra Stout]

Add to that an expectation that success is guaranteed, that we will be better off than our parents as a matter of birthright, and we find ourselves counting on some other country's children for the next generation of scientists and engineers.Once we get through a generation that is NOT as well off as its parents, that will change.

The folks entering the work force now (younger than me) will be just that generation. They're not looking too kindly on the prospect of being forced to support their parents' retirement and medical care on top of having to establish their own families, all while their parents still have 20 years of able-bodied work left in them.

[SPARKY]

"The American Dream" is the guiding myth that underlies this society. The problem is that instead of opportunity it's become a matter of outcome that is the focus of our political and educational institutions.

[MannyIsGod]

I can buy that Stout.

[Extra Stout]

"The American Dream" is the guiding myth that underlies this society. The problem is that instead of opportunity it's become a matter of outcome that is the focus of our political and educational institutions.Restated:

Once upon a time, the "American Dream" was that no matter who you were, if you worked hard enough, you could carve out a little piece of heaven for yourself.

Today, the "American Dream" is to get paid enough to live an affluent lifestyle without having to do any work.

See: Rome, 4th century A.D.

[Bandit2981]

See: Rome, 4th century A.D.
interesting. do you think history is beginning to repeat itself with the U.S being the next Rome?

[Extra Stout]

interesting. do you think history is beginning to repeat itself with the U.S being the next Rome?
Maybe, with television playing the role that lead did.

[The Ressurrected One]

Another fine example of your public schools in action

"Kevin Francois gave up his lunch break to talk to his mother, but it ended up costing him the rest of the school year," reports the Ledger-Enquirer of Columbus, Ga.: (http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/11575912.htm)


Francois, a junior at Spencer High School in Columbus (http://www.mcsdga.net/schools/high/spencer.html), (just in case you want to call and discuss the issue with the principal) was suspended for disorderly conduct Wednesday after he was told to give up his cell phone at lunch while talking to his mother who is deployed in Iraq, he said.

His mother, Sgt. 1st Class Monique Bates, left in January for a one-year tour and serves with the 203rd Forward Support Battalion, 3rd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division. . . .

The incident happened when Francois received a call from his mother at 12:30 p.m., which he said was his lunch break. Francois said he went outside the school building to get a better reception when his mother called. A teacher who saw Francois on his phone told him to get off the phone. But he didn't. . . .

Francois said he told the teacher, "This is my mom in Iraq. I'm not about to hang up on my mom."

Francois said the teacher tried to take the phone, causing it to hang up.

The student said he then went with the teacher to the school's office where he surrendered his phone. His mother called again at 12:37 p.m. and left a message scolding her son about hanging up and telling him to answer the phone when she calls.

Assistant principal Alfred Parham says Francois could have been arrested for being defiant. He adds that students are not permitted to use cell phones "for conversating back and forth during school because if they were allowed to do that, they could be text messaging each other for test questions."

Which raises the question: Do people who think "conversating" is a word have any business administrating tests in the first place?

[SPARKY]

Damn. If only Kevin had been on the phone with his mom's lesbian partner then the little snot would've deserved it, eh?

[spurster]

I'm confused. Some are complaining that the schools are too easy on the kids, and now, when a kid breaks the rules and gets disciplined, it's a bad thing? Talk about a mixed message.

[Clandestino]

a little common sense would be best. dude's mom is in iraq. it is not like she gets to call everyday. she could die before she gets to call again...

[scott]

Pennselvania still has some fight in 'em, watch out.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Bunch of ignorant mofos

[gtownspur]

I think you can be a genius still and have doubts on evolution. Sir Isaac Newton didnt need evolution theory to discover law of gravity. EVolution theory isnt needed to write law, or develop jet engines. If you want to get into the medical or scientific field then you might need it. But pennicilin was discovered with out having to use evolution theory to arrive to its discovery.

[scott]

Doubts on evolution are fine, so long as your doubts can be examined in a scientific framework. "It seems too complex to me, so it musta been God" is not a scientific doubt.

[exstatic]

But pennicilin was discovered with out having to use evolution theory to arrive to its discovery.

Ironic, as penicillin immunity acquired by bacteria is basically proof OF evolution.

[gtownspur]

^^but It Was A Discovery....

[gtownspur]

Doubts on evolution are fine, so long as your doubts can be examined in a scientific framework. "It seems too complex to me, so it musta been God" is not a scientific doubt.
hOW BOUT THE lack of transition fossils to link the evolution of homo sapiens, and the fact that there have been forgeries commited like "pilt down man". As to ask that people not believe in GOd, thats way to fascist.

[gtownspur]

Ironic, as penicillin immunity acquired by bacteria is basically proof OF evolution.
or micro evolution and adaptation which doesnt necessarily disprove that GOd created the Universe or engineered it.

[spurster]

Science is not about proof and disproof. It is about evidence and the scientific method. Theories that have a lot of evidence beat theories that don't. Theories that have problems and a way to address them definitely beat theories that have problems and no way to address them. In evolution, the problems are being addressed by figuring out the genetic code and how genetic change can get from one point to another. In intelligent design, the same problems are evaded by passing the buck to an unknown, mysterious intelligent designer.

[spurster]

Kansas gets to keep the title for now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09dover.html

Evolution Slate Outpolls Rivals
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

All eight members up for re-election to the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in biology class were swept out of office yesterday by a slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent design policy.