Batum #5 PER for small forwards in the NBA [Archive]

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tlongII

03-15-2010, 10:12 AM

mogrovejo

03-15-2010, 10:29 AM

Yeah, he's a terrific role-player.

lil_penny

03-15-2010, 10:33 AM

Stud

Bartleby

03-15-2010, 10:38 AM

And Anthony Randolph is 7th. I wish there were some way the Spurs could pry one of those players away, but I know it's not going to happen.

JamStone

03-15-2010, 11:05 AM

Maybe with his upside and since he's still on his cheap rookie contract, the Blazers could upgrade that small forward position by trading him for Corey Maggette. Just a thought.

mogrovejo

03-15-2010, 11:15 AM

tlongII

03-15-2010, 11:20 AM

Maybe with his upside and since he's still on his cheap rookie contract, the Blazers could upgrade that small forward position by trading him for Corey Maggette. Just a thought.

:lmao

urunobili

03-15-2010, 11:33 AM

Star written all over him :tu

namlook

03-15-2010, 12:26 PM

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings?position=sf&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2frankings%3fposition%3dsf

1. LeBron James 31.79
2. Kevin Durant 25.47
3. Carmelo Anthony 23.06
4. Corey Maggette 21.17
5. Nicolas Batum 19.22

:smokin

This is why PER doesn't mean all that much. It measures some stats but it doesn't measure a player's true value to a team. Not just Batum but Maggette too. Maggette is not as good as his PER. He's just piling up stats because of the offensive system the Warriors run.

PER says that Chris Paul is better than Magic Johnson. :lmao

HarlemHeat37

03-15-2010, 12:41 PM

LOL I wonder why namlook hates PER..

JamStone

03-15-2010, 01:05 PM

:lmao

Hopefully, you at least understood my suggestion...

Native American

03-15-2010, 01:18 PM

John Hollinger

03-15-2010, 01:27 PM

He's a terrific role-player, not a stud. He's PER is so high because he spent most of the season injured and hit a hot patch shooting once he returned. He won't keep his shooting efficiency at this level, it's not sustainable (70%TS, 47%3PT).

There's no statistical evidence to imply that the underlying theoretical morality play at work here is impervious to the nature of poetic justice that is indigenous to the PER of the player being discussed. With that said, we all know that Batum is close to being the LeBron James of the Blazers.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

03-15-2010, 01:32 PM

There's no statistical evidence to imply that the underlying theoretical morality play at work here is impervious to the nature of poetic justice that is indigenous to the PER of the player being discussed. With that said, we all know that Batum is close to being the LeBron James of the Blazers.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

tlongII

03-15-2010, 02:59 PM

Hopefully, you at least understood my suggestion...

I did.

tlongII

03-15-2010, 03:02 PM

This is why PER doesn't mean all that much. It measures some stats but it doesn't measure a player's true value to a team. Not just Batum but Maggette too. Maggette is not as good as his PER. He's just piling up stats because of the offensive system the Warriors run.

PER says that Chris Paul is better than Magic Johnson. :lmao

That's why Batum's numbers are so impressive. He is a defensive specialist yet achieves this high a value even though the numbers are skewed more to the offensive end.

badfish22

03-15-2010, 03:19 PM

Praise given with extreme exaggeration can be like the art of the bow and arrow. When your target is far, you shoot an arrow high in the air to keep the arrow flying for as long as possible and to give it arc and trajectory. However, if you keep aiming higher and higher, at some point, the angle becomes a straight verticle line which would only result in the arrow coming back down and piercing you in the head. And by that I mean when tlongII gives glorified praise about his beloved Blazers, his exaggerated intentions are aimed so high, it appears he simply enjoys long sticks poking him in the face.

There's no statistical evidence to imply that the underlying theoretical morality play at work here is impervious to the nature of poetic justice that is indigenous to the PER of the player being discussed. With that said, we all know that Batum is close to being the LeBron James of the Blazers.

Two great trolls.

mogrovejo

03-15-2010, 03:22 PM

That's why Batum's numbers are so impressive. He is a defensive specialist yet achieves this high a value even though the numbers are skewed more to the offensive end.

They aren't skewed, they basically reduce the boxscore to a single number. And boxscore doesn't measure defence.

The numbers aren't impressive because the sample is too small. 500 minutes is nothing. His shooting will regress big time and so will his PER.

Batum, as a player, is impressive.

Killakobe81

03-15-2010, 06:00 PM

PER sucks ... as the only indicator it is helpful but should not be the be all end all +/- is the same way ...

and you can forget the hints about Kobe i could care less what you nimrods that bash him for PER
I disagree with the crap that PER nerds post that chris paul is better than Magic ...
That alone makes the stat far less credible ...

exstatic

03-15-2010, 07:48 PM

That's why Batum's numbers are so impressive. He is a defensive specialist yet achieves this high a value even though the numbers are skewed more to the offensive end.

Too bad you'll lose him under the new CBA and the hard cap.

DAF86

03-15-2010, 08:15 PM

This is why PER doesn't mean all that much. It measures some stats but it doesn't measure a player's true value to a team. Not just Batum but Maggette too. Maggette is not as good as his PER. He's just piling up stats because of the offensive system the Warriors run.

PER says that Chris Paul is better than Magic Johnson. :lmao

That's a stupid argument to use against PER. The player efficiency rating (emphasis on the "efficiency") helps you realize who the most efficient players on the league are, the pace at which that team's player plays has little to none effect on the results.

PER IMO is one of the best stats on the NBA.

namlook

03-15-2010, 08:34 PM

That's a stupid argument to use against PER. The player efficiency rating (emphasis on the "efficiency") helps you realize who the most efficient players on the league are, the pace at which that team's player plays has little to none effect on the results.

Wrong. Maggette is shooting 51.4% from the field this season while his career FG% is only 45%. That's an astronomical difference. For ten seasons Maggette was a 45% shooter, then he joins the Warriors and all of a sudden his offensive efficiency goes through the roof. The wide open offense his team is running has a lot to do with his efficiency. Players don't make a sudden jump in efficiency that large without external factors.

Anyone that can't recognize that PER can be impacted by the team around the player and the style of play of the team is simply naive about the game of basketball. Maggette is a textbook example of how these factors affect PER and efficiency.

DAF86

03-15-2010, 08:53 PM

Wrong. Maggette is shooting 51.4% from the field this season while his career FG% is only 45%. That's an astronomical difference. For ten seasons Maggette was a 45% shooter, then he joins the Warriors and all of a sudden his offensive efficiency goes through the roof. The wide open offense his team is running has a lot to do with his efficiency. Players don't make that kind of sudden jump in efficiency without external factors.

Anyone that can't recognize that PER is impacted by the team around the player and the style of play of the team is simply naive about the game of basketball. Maggette is a textbook example of how these factors affect PER and efficiency.

Well those factors don't only affect PER, they affect stats in general and more importantly they affect the way a player performs, so as you can see your argument still isn't a good one.

HarlemHeat37

03-15-2010, 09:18 PM

LOL @ the PER haters..

Maggette's average PER was higher with the Clippers than it has been with Golden State..during his prime years with the Clippers, he consistently had a PER around 20..the Clippers were a slightly above average paced team, and they've never been known for having a system that inflates stats..Maggette's PER has VERY LITTLE to do with playing for the Warriors..

PER admittedly has flaws, it overrates certain aspects, underrated assists, and it doesn't account for defense(no star can 100% accurately describe defense anyways)..Maggette's flaws have always been that he doesn't play consistent defense and that he isn't a team-player..he's certainly talented and efficient..

As mogrovejo keeps saying, Batum's PER is so high because he's played like 25 games this season..obviously it evens out with the more games he's going to play..

Comparing Chris Paul to Magic is completely irrelevant..a raw PER number can't be compared for different seasons, it's completely dependent on comparing players of THAT particular season, since it has to measure the average PER of the league..the best way to compare PER is to look at that player's individual rankings in PER for every season..

namlook

03-16-2010, 03:19 AM

Well those factors don't only affect PER, they affect stats in general and more importantly they affect the way a player performs, so as you can see your argument still isn't a good one.

Maggette's increased efficiency has a lot to do with the system in which the is playing at Golden State. Maggette's FG% suddenly increased by an abnormally large percentage after being constant for 10 seasons and his PER this season is a CAREER HIGH. Case closed.

PER is a useful stat but it only tells part of the story. People seem to forget this.

SenorSpur

03-16-2010, 10:14 AM

Ah, Nic Batum...if only...

Chieflion

03-16-2010, 10:16 AM

Ah, Nic Batum...if only...

Think of Paul George and be happy.

DAF86

03-16-2010, 02:20 PM

Maggette's increased efficiency has a lot to do with the system in which the is playing at Golden State. Maggette's FG% suddenly increased by an abnormally large percentage after being constant for 10 seasons and his PER this season is a CAREER HIGH. Case closed.

And Kobe's PPG has a lot to do with the fact that he's allowed to take 20 shots per game. Of course stats are going to be influenced by the style of play your team has. But this doesn't apply to PER in particular, it applies to stats in general. The good thing about PER is that it rewards quality over quantity.

PER is a useful stat but it only tells part of the story. People seem to forget this.

No stat tells the whole story and PER isn't the exception. Whoever PER does tell a lot more than basically every other stat out-there.

mogrovejo

03-16-2010, 04:35 PM

No stat tells the whole story and PER isn't the exception. Whoever PER does tell a lot more than basically every other stat out-there.

Meh, I prefer PER to most other linear-weighted metrics that summarize a boxscore (NBA Eff., WP, WS) but PER can't tell you more than the parts that constitute it. It's like saying that a medley of Beatles songs tells a lot more about their music than listening to their records.

DAF86

03-16-2010, 04:47 PM

Meh, I prefer PER to most other linear-weighted metrics that summarize a boxscore (NBA Eff., WP, WS) but PER can't tell you more than the parts that constitute it. It's like saying that a medley of Beatles songs tells a lot more about their music than listening to their records.

Of course watching the games will always be the best factor to "tell the whole story".

mogrovejo

03-16-2010, 04:51 PM

Of course watching the games will always be the best factor to "tell the whole story".

I wasn't even talking about that. I'd rather look at the components of the PER instead of just knowing the PER number. It takes more time because it's a dozen numbers of so, but it's way more informative. Plus, there are lots of valuable stats readily available these days that PER doesn't even factor.

Killakobe81

03-16-2010, 05:06 PM

HarlemHeat37

03-16-2010, 05:56 PM

It's useful if you look at it in proper context..

Varejao isn't one of the top 5 most valuable players in the NBA, but that stat clearly shows how much value he has to his own team..personally, I like looking at +/- to compare players to their own teammates, instead of comparing to other players, because it does depend on the backups as well..

Still, you don't have to look at it in a "ranking system"..that stat DOES show that Varejao is a very valuable player to the Cavs team, and any Cleveland fan can tell you that..that's what you can take from that stat, it doesn't have to be a ranking..

mogrovejo

03-16-2010, 06:39 PM

LOL stat lovers ...
Verejao 5th in league in plus/minus ...

yeah he plays with the best player in the NBA on the BEST team OF COURSE he has great stats ...

Not saying he is NOT a GOOD and VALUABLE player but to have him ranked just below Kobe and over Dirk, Duncan etc shows you that stat is crap ...PER has it's flaws as well ...

Stast are just one indicator you also have to pass the "eyeball" test Verejao good hardworking player same with Batum (though he is better skilled) neither should be 5th n the NBa at anything ...

Geez, I'm not even a stat lover and I have no use whatsoever to non-adjusted plus-minus from a single season (adjusted +/- from various seasons I like to look at, although it's not a Holly Grail, like no stat could be), but do you honestly think anyone ranks Varejão as the 5th best player in the league because he ranks 5th in that metric? That's not the reason people collect those stats.

Even the most stats-oriented guys, like Wayne Winston or David Berri, are more level-headed than the anti-stats nutjobs. And it's not close.

namlook

03-16-2010, 07:04 PM

And Kobe's PPG has a lot to do with the fact that he's allowed to take 20 shots per game. Of course stats are going to be influenced by the style of play your team has. But this doesn't apply to PER in particular, it applies to stats in general.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Please use some common sense here. Maggette's FG% efficiency has gone way up this season all of a sudden. His FG% is suddenly much higher than it has ever been in his career. This means he is getting more easy opportunities to score, and that's because of the wide open offensive system he is playing in with the Warriors. This also correlates to his PER being a career high.

There is a direct correlation between Maggette getting more easy shots and scoring with increased efficiency in the Warriors offensive system and his PER being a career high. The Warriors style of play has contributed to the high PER Maggette is producing this season.

PER is not just a reflection of the individual player. PER is influenced by many factors. A player can be more efficient and thus have a higher PER based on the team he plays on, the system he plays in, and the players around him.

People think that because player A has a higher PER than player B that means player A is better. If you swapped the two players on their teams the PER numbers could be reversed with player B having the higher PER because he now plays in a system that better suits his skills and because he has teammates around him that compliment his game better. PER reflects a player's efficiency but it also reflects the circumstances he is in.

HarlemHeat37

03-16-2010, 07:12 PM

So why was his PER last season one of the lowest of his career?..He was still playing with the Warriors last year, their system was the same..

Why was his PER with the Clippers always around 19+?..

Why was his shooting efficiency last season with the Warriors lower than the previous 3 seasons with the Clippers?..

Can you show me that playing for the Warriors automatically makes your shooting efficiency higher, just because they play at a fast pace?..

DAF86

03-16-2010, 07:50 PM

You are comparing apples and oranges. Please use some common sense here. Maggette's FG% efficiency has gone way up this season all of a sudden. His FG% is suddenly much higher than it has ever been in his career. This means he is getting more easy opportunities to score, and that's because of the wide open offensive system he is playing in with the Warriors. This also correlates to his PER being a career high.

There is a direct correlation between Maggette getting more easy shots and scoring with increased efficiency in the Warriors offensive system and his PER being a career high. The Warriors style of play has contributed to the high PER Maggette is producing this season.

I can buy your theory that Maggette is beign more efficient because of the Warriors' style of play (although it can't be proven) but so what? what PER does is just show you how efficient a player is beign during a season, the reasons for that efficiency are for others to discuss.

PER is not just a reflection of the individual player. PER is influenced by many factors. A player can be more efficient and thus have a higher PER based on the team he plays on, the system he plays in, and the players around him.

People think that because player A has a higher PER than player B that means player A is better. If you swapped the two players on their teams the PER numbers could be reversed with player B having the higher PER because he now plays in a system that better suits his skills and because he has teammates around him that compliment his game better. PER reflects a player's efficiency but it also reflects the circumstances he is in.

Of course PER is influenced by many factors but so are all the other stats, so I don't see what's your problem with it, besides although PER is influenced by many factors the most important of those factors is still the skills or abilities a player has to perform at a certain level, or how else do you explain that Monta Ellis or S.Curry can't have Maggette's PER numbers playing on the same pace and style of play?

Killakobe81

03-16-2010, 10:17 PM

Geez, I'm not even a stat lover and I have no use whatsoever to non-adjusted plus-minus from a single season (adjusted +/- from various seasons I like to look at, although it's not a Holly Grail, like no stat could be), but do you honestly think anyone ranks Varejão as the 5th best player in the league because he ranks 5th in that metric? That's not the reason people collect those stats.

Even the most stats-oriented guys, like Wayne Winston or David Berri, are more level-headed than the anti-stats nutjobs. And it's not close.

Who is anti-stats?
I just hate when it is used as the main criteria on who is better ...I prefer "titles" but I think BOTH should be factors ...