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Winehole23
03-15-2010, 01:25 PM
Conservative Leninists and the War on Terror (http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2010/03/04/conservative-leninists-and-the-war-on-terror/)

by Ted Galen Carpenter


March 4th, 2010
One long-standing hallmark of Western conservative thought is the emphasis on the rule of law. Earlier generations of conservatives understood that, without such constraints, liberty would be imperiled and a free society would ultimately descend into tyranny. As Lord Acton observed, “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Even during the 20th century, most conservatives were wary of unfettered pragmatism, and they viewed with horror the assertion of Vladimir Lenin and his communist followers that the end justifies the means. To the contrary, conservatives stressed that even when the goals were worthy, the use of unconstitutional, illegal, or immoral means was not justified.

In recent years, though, a troubling number of prominent figures on the political right have seemingly abandoned that standard, especially with respect to national-security issues. Instead, their sole guiding principle appears to be whether an initiative “works”—in the sense of producing the desired result. Whether that initiative violates fundamental constitutional or moral standards is seen as irrelevant and, frankly, a somewhat quaint consideration. By embracing ruthless pragmatism, these individuals come perilously close to being conservative Leninists.


Signs of such attitudes began to surface during the Cold War, and they were among the reasons why I left Young Americans for Freedom, the Young Republicans, and other conservative organizations. Increasingly, I heard the argument that, because America confronted a dangerous, ruthless, and evil adversary, our country could not be squeamish about the tactics used to thwart that threat. The policies U.S. officials pursued reflected a willingness to cut moral and legal corners to achieve the broader objective. The cynical military coups that the Eisenhower administration executed to topple democratic, albeit left-leaning, governments in Iran and Guatemala were international manifestations of this attitude. So, too, were lucrative military- and economic-aid programs to some of the most odious dictators on the planet, including Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire, the shah of Iran, Nicaragua’s Anastasio Somoza, and Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines. Domestically, most conservatives seemed comfortable with government programs that spied on, and even harassed, critics of U.S. foreign policy.


That tendency to disregard legal and moral considerations has resurfaced and become even more virulent in conservative political and policy circles regarding counterterrorism measures since the September 11 attacks. In a series of memos to the President (the most infamous one being the August 1, 2002, “torture memo”) conservative legal scholars John Yoo and Jay Bybee, at the time lawyers for the Department of Justice, made sweeping assertions about presidential authority to wage the “War on Terror.” Among other arguments, Yoo and Bybee contended that “enhanced interrogation techniques” (a term that was little more than a euphemism for torture) were not barred by the U.S. Constitution, treaties the United States had signed, or any federal statute. Indeed, any congressional act that purported to limit the president’s power in that area would be invalid.


More broadly, Yoo and Bybee adopted a breathtaking interpretation of presidential power in the arena of national security. Among other steps, they argued, the president could order the indefinite detention of any terrorist suspect—even a U.S. citizen arrested on U.S. soil—without a trial or even an evidentiary hearing.


How far John Yoo was willing to go in placing the president beyond any legal restraints became apparent in a December 2005 debate with a critic of the Bush administration’s policies. When asked whether a president could order that the testicles of a suspected terrorist’s child be crushed in order to pressure the father, Yoo astonishingly declined to condemn such an outrageous idea as legally and morally offensive. Instead he replied, “I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.”
The Bush administration sought to put most of the recommendations of the Yoo-Bybee memos into practice. This is troubling on several counts. The Geneva Conventions prohibit not only torture but, in equally categorical terms, the use of “violence,” “cruel treatment,” or even “humiliating or degrading treatment” of detainees. Moreover, the War Crimes Act of 1996 made any grave breach of these prohibitions a felony. A number of interrogation techniques that the Bush administration approved, most notably waterboarding and extended sleep deprivation, were rather clear violations. The August 2002 memo even approved any CIA enhanced-interrogation technique that did not lead to organ failure or other severe, permanent physical damage.


David Addington, the general counsel in Vice President Dick Cheney’s office, chafed at legal restrictions because in his view they would hobble efforts “to quickly [sic] obtain information from captured terrorists.” Addington strongly endorsed the most radical claim in the August 2002 memo: that the president could authorize any interrogation method. Treaties, and even U.S. laws, forbidding “any person” to commit torture simply did “not apply” to the commander in chief, he argued.


In a May 2009 speech to the American Enterprise Institute, Cheney himself embraced such reasoning and vehemently defended the record of the Bush administration on pragmatic grounds: “In the years after 9/11, our government also understood that the safety of the country required collecting information known only to the worst of the terrorists.” And in some cases, “that information could be gained only through tough interrogations.” The intelligence officers “who questioned the terrorists can be proud of their work and proud of the results, because they prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people.” A bold claim, and one that former CIA director George Tenet had made previously: “I know that this program has saved lives. I know we’ve disrupted plots.”


Cheney’s dismissive attitude toward criticism of the policies on moral or legal grounds was especially unsettling. He recounted that one high-level Al Qaeda operative had said that he would talk as soon as he got to the United States and saw his lawyer. “But like many critics of interrogations,” Cheney sneered, “he clearly misunderstood the business at hand. American personnel were not there to commence an elaborate legal proceeding, but to extract information from him before al-Qaeda could strike again and kill more of our people.”


Other conservative figures echoed Cheney’s condemnation of moves by the Obama administration to investigate whether unlawful abuses of detainees had taken place. House Republican leader John Boehner stated,
Our intelligence professionals have done a marvelous job keeping us safe. Faced with threats never before seen in our history, they have provided our troops with crucial information they need to fight our enemies abroad and protect our citizens at home. They deserve our gratitude . . .
Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell was even more succinct: “I think it’s important to remember, from 9/11 until the end of the Bush administration, not another single attack on the U.S. homeland. We were obviously doing something right.”


Conservative pundits likewise lined up behind the proposition that it was unpatriotic even to advocate an investigation into whether government employees may have violated the law and committed acts of torture. Syndicated columnist Cal Thomas argued that the Bush administration’s approach clearly had been successful, and he scorned Obama and others who worried that the tactics may have violated fundamental American values: “History will show that this approach protected our ‘values’ against those who would destroy them.” The American Enterprise Institute’s Reuel Marc Gerecht, though, made the most blatant Leninist defense. Writing in the Wall Street Journal, he stated,
Regardless of whether one believes CIA-inflicted waterboarding, sleep deprivation or severe psychological coercion (suggesting that harm could come to a family member of a taciturn al Qaeda detainee) constitute torture, such actions may have produced an intelligence bonanza and saved thousands of lives.
A striking feature of the defense that Cheney and his ideological allies have put forth is the avoidance of any serious discussion of whether the measures were illegal and/or immoral. Moreover, there is almost no willingness to address the point that at least some of the accused terrorists held at the Guantanamo Bay detention center and overseas facilities were innocent. Indeed, the term “accused terrorists” is never used. Proponents of enhanced-interrogation techniques invariably describe detainees as “captured terrorists” or simply “terrorists,” as though the guilt of every single individual were beyond dispute.


Yet that notion defies credulity. There were several thousand people captured in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other locations. The Guantanamo facility held more than 775 detainees at the peak, and many more were held at Abu Ghraib and various CIA “black sites” overseas. Even assuming that CIA, FBI, and military personnel were scrupulous in trying to establish the guilt of individuals they captured, it is a certainty that some innocent people were caught up in the sweep. Indeed, given the bitter clan and tribal rivalries in Afghanistan, and the equally bitter Sunni-Shiite-Kurdish animosity in Iraq, it is highly probable that a sizable number of parties were accused by personal or ideological enemies, even when they had no connection to Al Qaeda.


It is difficult enough to accept the reality that U.S. personnel committed acts of torture, even against bona fide terrorists. But it is appalling that some of the people deprived of their liberty for months, and in some cases years, without trial—and subjected to torture—were in fact innocent. Yet approximately 50 percent of the inmates held by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib were ultimately released without being prosecuted. A number of detainees at Guantanamo have likewise been quietly released. In both cases, the implicit admission is that they were not terrorists.


The “ends justifies the means” defense of the Bush administration’s War on Terror tactics proves faulty even on its own terms. Contrary to the assertion by proponents of enhanced-interrogation techniques, there is serious doubt about their effectiveness. In his AEI speech, as on so many other occasions, Cheney failed to provide specifics about terrorist attacks that were foiled or to offer any evidence that those techniques saved thousands, much less hundreds of thousands, of lives.


Moreover, several former officials with experience in interrogation have disputed the claims that significant amounts of valuable information were obtained. Even the validity of information provided by high-level Al Qaeda operative Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the veritable poster boy for the effectiveness of torture, is now uncertain. As reported by Vanity Fair, one former senior CIA official, who read all of the interrogation reports on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, concluded that “90 percent of it was f–king bullsh-t.” Former CIA officer Robert Baer makes the obvious point that “you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture is bad enough.”
Even worse, there are indications that such harsh tactics have made the overall terrorist threat worse. Matthew Alexander, the senior interrogator in Iraq on a task force charged with finding Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, made a most sobering observation in The Daily Beast:
I listened time and time again to captured foreign fighters cite the torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo as their main reason for coming to Iraq to fight. Consider that 90 percent of the suicide bombers in Iraq are those foreign fighters, and you can easily conclude that we have lost hundreds, if not thousands of American lives because of our policy of torture and abuse.
Fortunately, not all conservatives have succumbed to the temptation to disregard moral and legal constraints on the grounds that terrorism poses a serious threat to the well-being of the American people. Testifying before the House Committee on Armed Services, former State Department official William H. Taft IV, grandson of Robert A. Taft, the leading conservative political figure of his era, provided a reminder of the importance of adhering to principle in troubling times: “It is when we are enraged—when our blood boils—that we most need to adhere to the rule of law as we have established it, not change it to suit our convenience.” That is an appropriate rebuke to Dick Cheney, John Yoo, and other conservatives who seem all too willing to embrace Leninist tactics.

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Torture! <gasp> :dramaquee


Hurry, somone call Eric Holder's office!

George Gervin's Afro
03-15-2010, 02:10 PM
Torture! <gasp> :dramaquee


Hurry, somone call Eric Holder's office!

we know you're ok with torturing people... be proud!

Winehole23
03-15-2010, 02:16 PM
Torture! <gasp> :dramaquee


Hurry, somone call Eric Holder's office!Smug and trite, as ever.

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Smug and trite, as ever.


If it's a huge issue, the DOJ should make their #1 priority the criminal investigation of the eeeeeViLLL Bush/Cheney department of torture.


Good luck with that.

Winehole23
03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
If there weren't so many red-blooded Americans like you who didn't believe the ends justify the means, maybe they would.

ElNono
03-15-2010, 03:06 PM
If there weren't so many red-blooded Americans like you who didn't believe the ends justify the means, maybe they would.

And he would still bitch about it, followed by 3 youtubes...

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 03:16 PM
If there weren't so many red-blooded Americans like you who didn't believe the ends justify the means, maybe they would.



If they broke a law, by all means, go after them.

Did they break a law?

Winehole23
03-15-2010, 03:19 PM
Geneva and the UN Convention against Torture are US treaties. Law of the land.

Or they used to be.

DarrinS
03-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Geneva and the UN Convention against Torture are US treaties. Law of the land.

Or they used to be.



What's holding back the DOJ?

Winehole23
03-15-2010, 03:25 PM
The right thing to do isn't always politically expedient.

RandomGuy
03-15-2010, 03:54 PM
What's holding back the DOJ?

Obama's unwillingness to clean house after the former president. :bang

Someday, one can HOPE that we will do the right thing and admit we fucked up.

Marcus Bryant
03-15-2010, 07:37 PM
Best thing the establishment ever did was make Obama the frontman for the "War on Terror."

RandomGuy
03-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Best thing the establishment ever did was make Obama the frontman for the "War on Terror."

I never expected to be pleased at everything Obama did when he came into office, but I have seen precious little that I have really liked so far, expecially shit as morally unambiguous as this.

Wild Cobra
03-17-2010, 02:21 PM
The way I see it, the whole article is based on presuming things incorrectly.

LnGrrrR
03-17-2010, 02:22 PM
Torture! <gasp> :dramaquee


Hurry, somone call Eric Holder's office!

So do you agree that the ends justify the means, or not?

Why do I ask? I know you'll just offer some trite answer that has nothing to do with the question proposed.

Wild Cobra
03-17-2010, 02:28 PM
So do you agree that the ends justify the means, or not?

Why do I ask? I know you'll just offer some trite answer that has nothing to do with the question proposed.
I think he meant it was not torture.

MaryK
03-17-2010, 03:20 PM
Christ, where do you dig up this crap?

I'm not gonna destroy your thread like last time...methinks stuff like this is too important to you.

Have fun with it ;)

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 03:36 PM
Christ, where do you dig up this crap?Not surprised you'd be completely unfamiliar with one of the oldest trad con magazines around.


I'm not gonna destroy your thread like last time...Wise move. I'm not sure your rep in this forum could survive another such victory.


methinks stuff like this is too important to youIt's just a post. Take it or leave it, and I'll take your free psychology at face value.

DarrinS
03-17-2010, 03:42 PM
Meanwhile, the Dems are putting the Consitution in the paper shredder.

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 03:44 PM
How so? Self-executing rule ruses go way back.

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 04:04 PM
As with reconciliation, self-executing rules have been used by both Democratic and Republican congressional majorities, Mann says. He says Congress used it 36 times in 2005 and 2006, when the GOP was in charge, and 49 times in 2007 and 2008, after the Democrats had taken control.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/bpost/2010/03/expert-pelosi-deem-and-pass-strategy-for-health-care-is-not-unusual/1

DarrinS
03-17-2010, 04:10 PM
^What did they use it for?

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Does it matter? Such rules are either constitutional or they aren't.

LnGrrrR
03-17-2010, 04:18 PM
I think he meant it was not torture.

I believe he can speak for himself.

And I asked an o pen-ended question, regardless of the 'torture' issue or not. That is, do ends justify the means?

IOW, if we kill 1 million Iraqis, is it worth it to install democracy there? Does DarrinS think utilitarianism is morally justifiable?

DarrinS
03-17-2010, 04:18 PM
From extremist right-wing hate site, Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-blankley/constitutional-law-101-he_b_502371.html





The president and the Democratic congressional leadership are fighting furiously to pass, with no Republican votes, the ever-less-popular health bill. An Associated Press poll last week shows that four in five Americans don't want the Democrats to pass a health care bill without bipartisan support, while almost all polls are showing support for the current bill to be at only 25 percent to 35 percent. And all polls show high negative intensity.

The resistance of our governing system to passing so unpopular a bill is so powerful that it has driven Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Democratic Chairwoman of the Rules Committee Louise Slaughter -- at least for the moment -- to actually publicly consider violating the constitutional process for enacting laws.

Under their announced scheme, instead of following the constitutional voting process -- i.e., 1) The House first votes for the despised Senate bill, then 2) after that is signed into law by the president and 3) the Senate passes the popular amendments that the House wants, 4) the House votes for that second Senate bill of amendments, which, 5) the President then signs into law -- under the proposed scheme, the Senate bill would be "deemed" to have passed the House and become law without a presidential signature. Then the Senate would pass the House-demanded amendments, and the House members would then cast only one vote -- for the amendments they like, rather than the underlying Senate bill they hate. Thus (so Pelosi's theory holds) politically protecting House members, who could say they never actually voted for the publicly despised Senate bill.

But, as has been pointed out in several venues in the last few days, Article 1, Section 7 of the U.S. Constitution requires that before a bill becomes law, (1) "Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it"; and, (2) "in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively."

It is those two provisions of the Constitution that would be evaded: 1) the House vote, with the names and votes of the individual members publicly published, and 2) the President's signature. That is James Madison's precise 18th century version of transparency and accountability.

The Supreme Court has only recently emphasized that those procedures must be followed precisely. In Clinton v. New York City, 1998, (In which the court found the line-item veto as passed by Congress unconstitutional), Justice Stevens wrote the majority opinion:

"The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 is a 500-page document that became 'Public Law 105-33' after three procedural steps were taken: (1) a bill containing its exact text was approved by a majority of the Members of the House of Representatives; (2) the Senate approved precisely the same text; and (3) that text was signed into law by the President. The Constitution explicitly requires that each of those three steps be taken before a bill may 'become a law.'" Article I, Section 7.

And: "The procedures governing the enactment of statutes set forth in the text of Article I were the product of the great debates and compromises that produced the Constitution itself. Familiar historical materials provide abundant support for the conclusion that the power to enact statutes may only 'be exercised in accord with a single, finely wrought and exhaustively considered, procedure.' Chadha, 462 U.S., at 951."

Some have argued that the "Gephardt Rule" (House Rule XXVII) -- in which a similar "self-executing rule" "deemed" the House to have voted on a new debt ceiling, is valid precedent. Wrong. That rule was for a joint resolution -- not a bill. A joint resolution is a guide to the House. It is not a bill under the Constitution and has no force of law. Because a president has nothing to do with a resolution, a self-executing rule is valid for a resolution, but not for a bill.

It speaks to the sturdiness of the system our founders installed that it is, as intended, so resistant to passing major legal and cultural changes against the overwhelming will of the public. So resistant that, in frustration, the Democratic speaker of the House has been driven to consider breaking her oath of office and violate the Constitution in order to get her way. Presumably, when she is better counseled, she will dismiss this wayward idea.

Should she follow through on her threat, however, the product would not be a law, but a nullity -- an aborted, inert thing.

It would be, in essence, an attempted congressional putsch against the Constitution.

But still our governing system would not be broken as long as the President would do his constitutional duty -- as assuredly he would -- and neither sign nor veto it, but rather, publicly declare it a nullity, tear it up and burn it, as one would a piece of trash.

I refuse to conjecture on any alternative action by the president.

In other news, the White House spokesman last week engaged in an indecorous public exchange with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

LnGrrrR
03-17-2010, 04:22 PM
Not surprised you'd be completely unfamiliar with one of the oldest trad con magazines around.

Wise move. I'm not sure your rep in this forum could survive another such victory.

It's just a post. Take it or leave it, and I'll take your free psychology at face value.

She destroyed your prior thread in only 3 posts? She must be an effective troll!

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 04:23 PM
On February 20, 2005, the House adopted H.Res. 75, which provided that
a manager’s amendment dealing with immigration issues shall be
considered as adopted in the House and in the Committee of the Whole
and the bill (H.R. 418), as amended, shall be considered as the original
bill for purposes of amendment.http://www.rules.house.gov/Archives/98-710.pdf?loc=interstitialskip

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 04:27 PM
Don't get me wrong, i think it's shitty as hell, but the question of constitutionality hardly seems as cut and dried as you think it.

DarrinS
03-17-2010, 04:32 PM
From radical right-wing pundit, CNN's Jack Cafferty:





Just when you think you've seen it all in Washington... along comes something like this:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi may try to pass the controversial health care reform bill without making members vote on it. Unbelievable.

Pelosi says she might use a procedural tactic where the House will vote on the package of fixes to the Senate bill... and then that vote would signify that lawmakers "deem" the health care bill to be passed.

Politically speaking, this is beyond sleazy. It's meant to protect Democrats - especially those up for re-election in November - from having to make a tough vote. Pelosi says of this process, "I like it... because people don't have to vote on the Senate bill." In Nancy Pelosi's world, accountability is a dirty word.

The Senate bill, of course, contains many provisions that are unpopular among some House Democrats - including language on abortion funding and taxes on high-cost insurance plans.

This tactic has been used in the past - but never for something as big and important as the nearly $900 billion health care reform bill.

Republicans are jumping all over this - and rightfully so. They're painting it as a way for Democrats to avoid taking responsibility. Some even suggest it's unconstitutional.

Meanwhile President Obama is campaigning relentlessly - calling on lawmakers to pass health care reform, "I want some courage. I want us to do the right thing."

The irony here is if Nancy Pelosi gets her way, it won't take much courage at all on the part of our so-called representatives.

Wild Cobra
03-17-2010, 04:38 PM
http://www.rules.house.gov/Archives/98-710.pdf?loc=interstitialskip
Except the managers amendment was already in disclosure. Talk about this bill is the rule would be voting for things yet undecided. That's what is unconstitutional. Changes require a vote.

LnGrrrR
03-17-2010, 04:39 PM
The irony here is if Nancy Pelosi gets her way, it won't take much courage at all on the part of our so-called representatives.


I don't know... sounds pretty ballsy on the part of Pelosi.

Wild Cobra
03-17-2010, 04:45 PM
I don't know... sounds pretty ballsy on the part of Pelosi.

There would clearly be a judicial review over this if passed. They could claim they got it done, just to have the courts find it unconstitutional.

LnGrrrR
03-17-2010, 04:46 PM
There would clearly be a judicial review over this if passed. They could claim they got it done, just to have the courts find it unconstitutional.

Who would have standing?

Winehole23
03-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Then what's the worry? If it's so obvious it doesn't pass constitutional muster, there's not much to fear.

boutons_deux
03-17-2010, 04:55 PM
The impeccable bipartisan pedigree of "deem and pass"

Pelosi's plan outrages Republicans, but they used "deem and pass" well over a hundred times

By Joe Conason

When congressional Republicans predict ominously that Democratic deployment of a self-executing rule (or "deem-and-pass") will encourage them to engage in similar behavior someday, they forget to mention how many times they’ve already done it.

For the sake of anyone troubled by the ranting over this trivial matter, the historical record is indisputable. During the years when the Republicans controlled the House, they set records for the use of such "rarely used" maneuvers. Although their bogus sanctimony should no longer surprise anyone, the utter fraudulence of these latest outbursts has been held up to deserved ridicule by impeccably nonpartisan and even conservative sources. On the American Enterprise Institute blog, for instance, congressional expert Norm Ornstein writes:

Any veteran observer of Congress is used to the rampant hypocrisy over the use of parliamentary procedures that shifts totally from one side to the other as a majority moves to minority status, and vice versa. But I can’t recall a level of feigned indignation nearly as great as what we are seeing now from congressional Republicans and their acolytes at the Wall Street Journal, and on blogs, talk radio, and cable news. It reached a ridiculous level of misinformation and disinformation over the use of reconciliation, and now threatens to top that level over the projected use of a self-executing rule by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. In the last Congress that Republicans controlled, from 2005 to 2006, Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier used the self-executing rule more than 35 times, and was no stranger to the concept of "deem and pass."

That strategy, then decried by the House Democrats who are now using it, and now being called unconstitutional by WSJ editorialists, was defended by House Republicans in court (and upheld). Dreier used it for a $40 billion deficit reduction package so that his fellow GOPers could avoid an embarrassing vote on immigration.

To be fair, Ornstein prefers the "regular order" and thus won’t endorse the use of a self-executing rule by the Democrats to pass health care reform. "But even so," he asks, "is there no shame anymore?"

For those who wish we could all just get along, the use of the self-executing rule is among the few things that can be honestly called "bipartisan." So says Donald Wolfensberger, who served on the Republican staff of the House Rules Committee for nearly two decades and as its chief of staff during the 104th Congress, after Newt Gingrich became speaker, in a brief but detailed column that he wrote for Roll Call.

He also posted that essay on the Web site of the Woodrow Wilson Center, where he runs the Congress Project:

When Republicans were in the minority, they railed against self-executing rules as being anti-deliberative because they undermined and perverted the work of committees and also prevented the House from having a separate debate and vote on the majority’s preferred changes. From the 95th to 98th Congresses (1977-84), there were only eight self-executing rules making up just 1 percent of the 857 total rules granted. However, in Speaker Tip O’Neill’s (D-Mass.) final term in the 99th Congress, there were 20 self-executing rules (12 percent). In Rep. Jim Wright’s (D-Texas) only full term as Speaker, in the 100th Congress, there were 18 self-executing rules (17 percent). They reached a high point of 30 under Speaker Tom Foley (D-Wash.) during the final Democratic Congress, the 103rd, for 22 percent of all rules.

When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.). [Naturally, Gingrich can now be seen everywhere on cable television complaining about such mischief.] There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively. Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules.

Wolfensberger was inspired by a 2006 episode when the Republican majority -- in order to secure their own loophole-ridden, watered-down version of ethics and lobbying reform -- used not just one but three self-executing rules on a single bill.

Those convoluted moves were necessary to remove previously approved provisions that would have mandated disclosure of lobbyists’ contacts with members and staff, and lobbyists’ solicitation and transmission of campaign contributions to candidates, as well as a third amendment ordering the Government Accountability Office to study lobbyist employment contracts.

Four years ago is not ancient history. The same Republican leaders now roaring furiously about the self-executing rule were in the GOP leadership that used it so vigorously when they held power, including, of course, John Boehner. If we add up Wolfensberger’s numbers, Boehner’s team used the self-executing rule -- which he now denounces as a "twisted scheme" -- well over 100 times.

==========

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Hey, wrongies, GFY :lol

Ignignokt
03-17-2010, 04:57 PM
boutons_part corn_part deuce
_part bitch_part scrote.

Opposite of rightie is leftie and or wrongie.

GFY

boutons_deux
03-17-2010, 05:01 PM
"Deem and Pass" Is NOT "Without a Vote"

Tuesday 16 March 2010

by: Bill Scher | The Campaign for America's Future

Several traditional media outlets are regurgitating the conservative spin that if the House uses the parliamentary procedure known as a "self-executing rule" or "deem and pass," it will be passing the Senate health care vote "without a vote."

Yet that is a false assertion.

MSNBC's First Read succinctly explains the process, in case any other professional journalists care to do their jobs.

...the health-care bill would be voted on INDIRECTLY, tucked into what's known as "the rule." The rule essentially outlines the rules for an upcoming vote -- in this case, it would be the vote on the package of reconciliation fixes. By passing "the rule," the House also would "deem" the Senate bill passed (with a "hereby" statement. "We hereby deem..."). The House would then vote on the package of reconciliation fixes. But the Senate health-care bill would be considered passed even if they never vote on the reconciliation fixes [and] the bill must be signed by the president before the Senate takes up the reconciliation.

So there is a vote by the full House on whether it chooses to pass the Senate health care bill.

If any members of the House do not want to deem the Senate bill passed, they can vote "No" on the rule which would deem it passed.

Any members of the House who vote "Yes," would do so by recorded vote, so their constituents will be able to judge their actions.

Kinda sounds like democracy.

All that is accomplished here is the consolidation of a step. Instead of a separate vote on the Senate bill, it is packaged with the procedural motion that precedes changes to the bill in the budget reconciliation process.

Why bother with the non-traditional legislating? Some House members would prefer to consolidate those two steps, so conservatives will have a harder time attacking them over controversial elements in the Senate bill -- like the so-called "Cornhusker Kickback" -- which the House is planning to strip out in the reconciliation process, yet with which Republican leaders have already tried to tar House members.

Knowing the facts makes GOP Rep. David Dreier's hysteria sound all the sillier, as reported by CNN: "I think that [James] Madison would be spinning in his grave at the fact that there is absolutely no accountability to what is taking place here."

Or, Madison would call Dreier a liar, as there is complete accountability with a recorded vote.

If conservative obstructionists actually think this is unconstitutional, they should be giddy, because they then could have the courts nullify the entire law as illegitimate. But they know that it is legit, because Republicans have repeatedly used this procedure when they were in power.

So instead, conservatives are just ginning up fake outrage, knowing full well, as Eschaton put it, "...the media will trumpet it and congressional offices will see it on their always-tuned-to-cable-news-teevees and get scared."

But as Eschaton also says, in the end no one who votes cares about the process. They care whether the reforms will help them or hurt them.

Congrespeople should not let the fact that conservatives can easily con the Washington media let them lose sight of what really matters to voters.

http://www.truthout.org/deem-and-pass-is-not-without-a-vote57734?print

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Ignokit bitch, consider yourself slapped silly. :lol

Ignignokt
03-17-2010, 05:11 PM
[B][SIZE="4"]
Ignokit bitch, consider yourself slapped silly. :lol

Ouch! your labias hurt.

Wild Cobra
03-17-2010, 05:21 PM
Who would have standing?
In my opinion, most certainly not the democrats.

Winehole23
03-21-2010, 05:24 AM
In my opinion, most certainly not the democrats.There has to be a showing of actual harm. I believe this is where previous challenges failed.