Addition by Manu and Subtraction: Why Jefferson Failed

[Parker2112]

Recent quote from Jefferson:
“(Manu is) huge because he gets steals, strips and deflections, and you turn those into fast breaks...That's where I'm at my best.”

All season long Jefferson has needed a creator, along with break opportunities.

The above quote shows the value of a playmaker like Gino vs. a scoring guard like Tony: Several players on our team need the playmaking abilities of others to get involved, BOTH ON OFFENSE AND DEFENSE.

Right now, with guys like Malik Hairston and Cedric Jackson seeing the light of day, our defense has begun to come back from the dead. The energy and HEART (no smiley for heart?) they are bringing is enough reason for this Spurs fan to get excited about watching our team. They are playing with something to lose, and the world to gain. I hate to say it, but I think Tim, Tony, and Pop could ALL learn something here.

And is it any wonder that the defense picks up when Tony is out, Tim's minutes are dipping, and Finley is cut? These guys are all going through the motions, pulling an "Horry" if you will. Tim has been giving up points in the paint all season, excuses be damned. I am tired of waiting for Tony to heal/play defense with heart/get guys involved, not necessarily in that order. Finley is self explanatory. And Bonner on the bench helps tons.

The biggest thing is not a subtraction of "corporate knowledge," however, but the addition of HEART. Manu is healthy AND playing for a contract. In other words, he has something to play for and it shows. This season he has carried our team. He is become our great Argentine hope. Tim can get his numbers, but it is Ginobili who will dictate our fate.

The Point: Now with Jefferson playing alongside Gino rather than Tony, and the addition of defense and open court opportunities, we begin to see what this whole board has been clamoring for all season...production from RJ. His confidence is up, and now we can rely on him for intangibles as well. Return on investment. The upcoming schedule will tell if its fact or fluke.

Ginobili has served Blair all season. Now RJ. Who is next?

[timvp]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.

[Leetonidas]

Bullshit. RJ's problems don't come from Tony, they come from him sitting in the corner, not driving it, and chucking. You've seen what happens when he is aggressive and just takes it to the hole like a man, he either gets a dunk or free throws. Hell, if he would grab a fucking rebound he could start the fast break himself because I've seen it a couple times. Jefferson's problems are that he's lazy, plain and simple.

[Parker2112]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.

How about Parker, Timmy's D and Pop?

Tony should be resting and watching Cedric play defense with heart right now. Giving the fans reason to get excited.

Pop should be understanding that his schemes dont work unless his guys play with heart (like Bowen used to). Tony and Tim can walk through the defense all day, just as orchestrated by Pop, and it doesnt mean jack till the guys play with fire.

butthurt Parker fan much?

[Parker2112]

Bullshit. RJ's problems don't come from Tony, they come from him sitting in the corner, not driving it, and chucking. You've seen what happens when he is aggressive and just takes it to the hole like a man, he either gets a dunk or free throws. Hell, if he would grab a fucking rebound he could start the fast break himself because I've seen it a couple times. Jefferson's problems are that he's lazy, plain and simple.

I wont argue that he could fix his own problems on the court, but I think you would agree that at his salary, sometimes you have to facilitate solutions.

[weebo]

Parker would make a great sixth man. Only homer Spur fans overrate Parker.

[smeagol]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.

And his handle is Parker2112.

Go figure . . .

[dbestpro]

There is nothing here that says Parker sucks. It is just a matter of fact that some players need help in creating their shot. Players like Parker and Manu can create their own shot. The fact that Manu is better than Parker in helping others create their shot does not mean that Parker sucks. It does mean that Parker is better suited to be on the floor with guys who do not need to score to be effective.

[Parker2112]

And his handle is Parker2112.

Go figure . . .

The important part of that name is the 2112...it is representative of how Parker fanhood is a required part of being a Spurstalk poster. To speak out against Parker's shortcomings are to draw the wrath of the "Red Star of the Solar Federation...." :lol

I dont hate Parker, but I hate his defense.

I dont hate Pop, but I hate how he takes free agents and kills their game.

I dont hate Timmy, but I hate what our interior D has become.

[Ginobilly]

How about Parker, Timmy's D and Pop?

Tony should be resting and watching Cedric play defense with heart right now. Giving the fans reason to get excited.

Pop should be understanding that his schemes dont work unless his guys play with heart (like Bowen used to). Tony and Tim can walk through the defense all day, just as orchestrated by Pop, and it doesnt mean jack till the guys play with fire.

butthurt Parker fan much?

It's what happens when you try to play with nagging injuries all year long, you're going to be slow and infective.(TP's game is based on speed!) This years Tony looks like Wade did when he tried to played injured 2 years ago. Scrubs were taking him off the dribble, stealing it from him, looked like Finley, etc. I'm a strong advocate towards bringing Parker off the bench for the playoffs, so he could learn to share the ball with the second unit and finally get healthy. This month and half off should do wonders for Parker's aging legs.

[ChumpDumper]

Parker obviously needs to slow down and wait for his teammates to catch up with him on fast breaks so he can pass to them.

Threads like this would be less annoying if Manu had been treated the same way when he was injured.

[Parker2112]

There is nothing here that says Parker sucks. It is just a matter of fact that some players need help in creating their shot. Players like Parker and Manu can create their own shot. The fact that Manu is better than Parker in helping others create their shot does not mean that Parker sucks. It does mean that Parker is better suited to be on the floor with guys who do not need to score to be effective.

Thank you. :toast A fan without blinders.

[Parker2112]

Parker obviously needs to slow down and wait for his teammates to catch up with him on fast breaks so he can pass to them.

Threads like this would be less annoying if Manu had been treated the same way when he was injured.

There used to be a lot of truth here. But now with George, Malik, Jefferson, and Gino who can all run the break with him, he needs to start spacing the floor. Parker does not space breaks at all. He takes center stage.

[ChumpDumper]

There used to be a lot of truth here. But now with George, Malik, Jefferson, and Gino who can all run the break with him, he needs to start spacing the floor. Parker does not space breaks at all. He takes center stage.Can run the break with a healthy Tony?

We'll have to see it happen first. The only guy who could truly keep up with him on a regular basis was Elson.

[TIMMYD!]

How can you expect Tim not to allow some points in the paint when he's our only fucking big defender?

[Cane]

Out of the Big 3, Ginobili has found the most chemistry with the new acquisitions. Compared to Parker, Ginobili has had a much better season. Last season Parker was #8 in the PER standings, this season he's not even in the top 50. Ginobili was #11 last season and is now #19 but should only improve in the PER standings if he keep up his vintage play.

This was seen early on in the season too especially during that game against Toronto where Ginobili and RJ carried the Spurs (IIRC both Parker and Duncan were injured then). Their styles mesh with eachother and Ginobili excels at making plays for the new guys in ways that Parker has yet to show.

This has been a shitty season for Parker unfortunately.

[Parker2112]

How can you expect Tim not to allow some points in the paint when he's our only fucking big defender?

Some points is acceptable, but sometimes you have to drop your
:lobt::lobt: and say enough is enough.

[Ginobilly]

Parker would make a great sixth man. Only homer Spur fans overrate Parker.

It's cause to some, Parker is the G.S.O.A.T! The bench you say??? You should be burned in front of the Alamo for blasphemy! The bench is only for Mojos like Ginobili. I'm JK..... you just can't mention Parker and bench in the same sentence on Spurstalk.

[Parker2112]

This was seen early on in the season too especially during that game against Toronto where Ginobili and RJ carried the Spurs (IIRC both Parker and Duncan were injured then). Their styles mesh with eachother and Ginobili excels at making plays for the new guys in ways that Parker has yet to show.

This has been a shitty season for Parker unfortunately.

Parker's game meshes well with Tim.
Is that a surprise? Pop has engineered this connection since day one.


Parker's game doesn't mesh well with anyone else but perimiter shooters.
Is that a surprise? Pop has engineered this connection since day one.

[Express-News]

With all respect, I'll put some of my intellectual property on the table here at no cost just to illuminate some naive posters.... obviously since our articles were forbidden here, the forums isn't the same.............................................. . you idiots can't measure what the team has done without Parker untill they play some real teams.... they have played scrub during this stretch. jezz

[ChumpDumper]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

[Trainwreck2100]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

True, TL would not be nearly as effective as Manu off of the bench

[Parker2112]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

Thats bullshit. Manu is a fucking motor for this team. He is playing healthy and for his next contract. He creates and defends. He benefits the whole team when he is in. Parker has struggled with every new face. He has been hurt, but there is a case to be made that playing hurt would facilitate him creating for others and relying less on his drive. The fact that he hasn't done that, even when he is playing slow tells you one thing: that he cant.

The only fans who wont even consider Parker in a position to better serve the team are butthurt fanboys.

[ChumpDumper]

Thats bullshit. Manu is a fucking motor for this team. He is playing healthy and for his next contract. He creates and defends. He benefits the whole team when he is in. Parker has struggled with every new face. He has been hurt, but there is a case to be made that playing hurt would facilitate him creating for others and relying less on his drive. The fact that he hasn't done that, even when he is playing slow tells you one thing: that he cant.

The only fans who wont even consider Parker in a position to better serve the team are butthurt fanboys.Butthurt Manu fanboys start threads like this one.

http://www.petesqbsite.com/sections/express/issue10/for_great_justice.gif

[Ginobilly]

Parker's game meshes well with Tim.
Is that a surprise? Pop has engineered this connection since day one.


Parker's game doesn't mesh well with anyone else but perimiter shooters.
Is that a surprise? Pop has engineered this connection since day one.

That's one of the reasons why people want him to come off the bench instead of starting. He plays good with Duncan but ignores everybody else on the floor. It's like when you and your buddy play a full court pick up game with 3 other guys you don't know. Your naturally going to be passing it back and fourth and making plays with friend because you have chemistry with him. And your only going to pass it to the other guys on a bail out shot. TP's just doesn't have the court vision or creativity to get others involved quick enough. That's his weakness! He's not like a Manu/Kidd or a Pau Gasol where you can plug them in any team, and they will start finding guys naturally.

[Parker2112]

The OP is not about Parker. It's about defense and transition benefiting Jefferson, and the fact that the guys on the floor are playing inspired ball which is what Jefferson needed to succeed.

But in the teary eyes of Parker fanboys, it is just another indictment of their fav player.

The thing is, before this year I would never have called Gino a facilitator...I would have called him a turnover machine.

[ChumpDumper]

The OP is not about Parker. It's about defense and transition benefiting Jefferson, and the fact that the guys on the floor are playing inspired ball which is what Jefferson needed to succeed.

But in the teary eyes of Parker fanboys, it is just another indictment of their fav player.You sure talk about Tony a lot.


The thing is, before this year I would never have called Gino a facilitator...I would have called him a turnover machine.He's always been a facilitator. What a horrible failure of a take that was.

[Parker2112]

That's one of the reasons why people want him to come off the bench instead of starting. He plays good with Duncan but ignores everybody else on the floor. It's like when you and your buddy play a full court pick up game with 3 other guys you don't know. Your naturally going to be passing it back and fourth and making plays with friend because you have chemistry with him. And your only going to pass it to the other guys on a bail out shot. TP's just doesn't have the court vision or creativity to get others involved quick enough. That's his weakness! He's not like a Manu/Kidd or a Pau Gasol where you can plug them in any team, and they will start finding guys naturally.

Perfect point. But my point to Parker fans....Why does he have to be perfect?

[ChumpDumper]

Perfect point. But my point to Parker fans....Why does he have to be perfect?Why does Tony have to be perfect?

You tell me.

[weebo]

Butthurt Manu fanboys start threads like this one.

http://www.petesqbsite.com/sections/express/issue10/for_great_justice.gif

At best, he's an average assist man. I like Tony but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's defense is also suspect as he doesn't always go all out on that side of the floor. I say he could be a great sixth man ala Leonardo Barbosa. He could come in and run the break by himself against the other team's second unit. He would destroy any other team's bench. Obviously, when it came down to crunch time, you would want Tony in there.

[Ginobilly]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

Not at all! We just want the team to fuckin win the championship. Who the hell cares how it's done or who starts.

[z0sa]

Sorry Parker-lovers, but if you can't see his flaws now, you never will.

Dude calls his own number above all else. His attitude should be much different since he's clearly injured. He had his chances; Pop gave him play calling ability. He should have been pounding the rock into RJ much more often.

You can't blame him for failing his role, though, especially since he's hobbled; blame Pop for placing him in a situation where he can't succeed. Basing a talented scoring team around a score first, clearly hobbled PG is a mistake 100% of the time.

Also, saying our guys should "catch up" with him on the break when he's been hobbled all season is pretty funny. I've been very disappointed in his decision making, whether it be in the break or in the half court, all season.

[ChumpDumper]

He could come in and run the break by himself against the other team's second unit.He already does against the other team's first unit when he's healthy.

[Parker2112]

You sure talk about Tony a lot. .

This thread was hijacked by a butthurt Tony fan at reply 1. Go figure.


He's always been a facilitator. What a horrible failure of a take that was.

His errant assist attempts are a thing of legend. Are you new to the Spurs? Have you seen Pop turn all red and goofy as Gino mutters in spanish and takes the bench following a turnover? It's only happened a million times over the last decade...


I would say this season is an anomaly for Ginobili. He is fine tuning his assist game because he is entering the last stage of his career.

[callo1]

Parker's absence has nothing to do with the team playing better as of late, with the exception of forcing Pops hand of starting Manu.

I think the loss of Finley (who I still repspect greatly), is a huge factor as well, since again, it forced Pop to play Malik, who is a better defender, rebounder, and much more athletic than Fin was in the twilight of his career.

I suppose Bonner getting hot and contributing has to do with Tony being out ?

How quickly people forget TP destroying the Cavs in '07, and how well he was starting to play right before the injury, almost as quickly as they forget TP almost single handedly keeping the Spurs in the playoff picture when both Manu and TD were out last year.

My only fear is that when TP comes back, Pop will immediately toss him into the starting lineup. When TP comes back, he should come off the bench until he gets a rythm.

We see many times when a vital cog is hurt, it causes a team to gell because others have to step up...that has happened. The Spurs are not a better team without Tony Parker.

[ChumpDumper]

Not at all! We just want the team to fuckin win the championship. Who the hell cares how it's done or who starts.Not going to happen regardless.


Sorry Parker-lovers, but if you can't see his flaws now, you never will.

Dude calls his own number above all else. His attitude should be much different since he's clearly injured. He had his chances; Pop gave him play calling ability. He should have been pounding the rock into RJ much more often.

You can't blame him for failing his role, though, especially since he's hobbled; blame Pop for placing him in a situation where he can't succeed. Basing a talented scoring team around a score first, clearly hobbled PG is a mistake 100% of the time.I agree that Pop has been inflexible regarding compensation for injuries, but no one has gotten more of a pass for injury diminished performance than Manu.


Also, saying our guys should "catch up" with him on the break when he's been hobbled all season is pretty funny. I've been very disappointed in his decision making, whether it be in the break or in the half court, all season.Of course there is a "when healthy" caveat -- but so what? When two or three of the big three are injured, this team sucks. When Parker is injured, he's much less effective. Duh.

[Parker2112]

Why does Tony have to be perfect?

You tell me.

He doesnt. But if our personell no longer suits his game, I think he should be the one to give, not the entire roster who is not Tim or who doesnt get all their points behind the arc.

[Parker2112]

He already does against the other team's first unit when he's healthy.

As three guys stand still as a board to hold spacing for Tim and Tony...:lol

[ChumpDumper]

He doesnt. But if our personell no longer suits his game, I think he should be the one to give, not the entire roster who is not Tim or who doesnt get all their points behind the arc.I think that is a gross oversimplification of the team's situation, but if you need a scapegoat, Tony will be a popular one.

Let's play well against some good teams with this lineup. Then we can draw conclusions.

[ChumpDumper]

As three guys stand still as a board to hold spacing for Tim and Tony...:lolDoesn't have to be that way.

[Parker2112]

I think that is a gross oversimplification of the team's situation, but if you need a scapegoat, Tony will be a popular one.

Let's play well against some good teams with this lineup. Then we can draw conclusions.

My jury is still out as well. I want to see our team under fire. I think Pop may see a low ceiling for all these young guys, leading him to let them rot on the bench (much to the ire of many on this board). Lets see if that ceiling exists.

[Parker2112]

Doesn't have to be that way.

But isnt it weird how Hill gives up the ball, moves without the ball, and the offense flows? Manu gets the offense flowing as well...

And Tony does not design the offense so it is not his fault. It's up to Pop to get the pot stirring itself.

[Ginobilly]

Not going to happen regardless.

I agree that Pop has been inflexible regarding compensation for injuries, but no one has gotten more of a pass for injury diminished performance than Manu.

Of course there is a "when healthy" caveat -- but so what? When two or three of the big three are injured, this team sucks. When Parker is injured, he's much less effective. Duh.

The only Reason Manu has gotten that pass is because of the way he plays the game. Fans see that and quickly recognize his dedication to the game of Basketball. If it's not going to happen regardless, why not throw in the kids in the water to see if they can swim?? Spurs have nothing to lose at this point! Nobody is expecting to go past the first round so what's wrong with experimenting a little???

[ChumpDumper]

But isnt it weird how Hill gives up the ball, moves without the ball, and the offense flows? Manu gets the offense flowing as well...Against horrible teams? It's not weird at all.

[TimmehC]

Doesn't have to be that way.

It doesn't, but Tony calls those plays.

[Parker2112]

I for one am tired of watching games and hearing about how we live and die by the three ball. I like the easy buckets, the layups and dunks by Hill and RJ that happen after everyone has touched the ball. I hate seeing the pick and roll and the kick out to RMJ for another brick.

[Ginobilly]

I think that is a gross oversimplification of the team's situation, but if you need a scapegoat, Tony will be a popular one.

Let's play well against some good teams with this lineup. Then we can draw conclusions.

Any new lineup that works against elite teams will bring a breeze of fresh air to all Spurs Fans! He haven't consistently beat good teams in the Regular season/playoffs the last two years, and that's with Tony/Tim/Manu in and out the lineup.

[Parker2112]

Against horrible teams? It's not weird at all.

I hope we are turning the corner and will show success against top teams.

[ChumpDumper]

It doesn't, but Tony calls those plays.RJ has never had the opportunity to make a drive because of Tony?

:lol

Seriously, Bonner has been driving more lately than RJ did at the start of the season.

[waits for Bonner's drives to be attributed to Parker's absence]

[Supreme_Being]

TP is French. 'Nuff said.

[Ginobilly]

I for one am tired of watching games and hearing about how we live and die by the three ball. I like the easy buckets, the layups and dunks by Hill and RJ that happen after everyone has touched the ball. I hate seeing the pick and roll and the kick out to RMJ for another brick.

Me too!!!:depressed I want 2003-2005 Spurs basketball when everybody would drive,drive,drive towards the basket and either get fouled, or pass it up to a big man for an easy dunk/layup.

[ChumpDumper]

Any new lineup that works against elite teams will bring a breeze of fresh air to all Spurs Fans!Let's not act like it has already happened.


I hope we are turning the corner and will show success against top teams.From your mouth to whatever.

[Parker2112]

RJ has never had the opportunity to make a drive because of Tony?

:lol

Seriously, Bonner has been driving more lately than RJ did at the start of the season..

I am beginning to think RJ's only use is flying out on the break. He cant post with any authority, and teams can take away his driving lanes all game long.

But I will say that parker kills his transition opportunities.

[murpjf88]

With all respect, I'll put some of my intellectual property on the table here at no cost just to illuminate some naive posters.... obviously since our articles were forbidden here, the forums isn't the same.............................................. . you idiots can't measure what the team has done without Parker untill they play some real teams.... they have played scrub during this stretch. jezz

Simple minds think simple solution.

[beachwood]

There is nothing here that says Parker sucks. It is just a matter of fact that some players need help in creating their shot. Players like Parker and Manu can create their own shot. The fact that Manu is better than Parker in helping others create their shot does not mean that Parker sucks. It does mean that Parker is better suited to be on the floor with guys who do not need to score to be effective.

Bingo. That's it right there. Parker needs to be surrounded by more traditional drive and kick players; Mason, Bonner, etc. Players that are comfortable in a pick and role situation and know where the open spots will be; that are comfortable shooting set shots.

RJ is not that kind of player. He seems to thrive in free flowing offenses.

I don't think it's a matter of whether Parker or Manu is better; it's about the type of players they are. Manu creates in a more chaotic style; Parker a straight line.

[Parker2112]

Bingo. That's it right there. Parker needs to be surrounded by more traditional drive and kick players; Mason, Bonner, etc. Players that are comfortable in a pick and role situation and know where the open spots will be; that are comfortable shooting set shots.

RJ is not that kind of player. He seems to thrive in free flowing offenses.
As does Blair, Manu, Hill, Malik, and I would argue Dice as well.


I don't think it's a matter of whether Parker or Manu is better; it's about the type of players they are.
Your wisdom exceeds the scope of these humble villagers' understanding...

[z0sa]

"freeflowing" offense makes every basketball look better. Look what having a very talented pass first PG and a high tempo offense in Phoenix does and has done for scrubs for years.

RJ proved last season he can score without a HOF PG or a high octane offense.

[ploto]

I love Manu and am admittedly not all that fond of Tony personally-speaking, but threads like these are just ridiculous. Tony Parker shoots under orders from Pop. He is supposed to look to score.

Play Manu and RJ off the bench together- along with Blair, Malik and whomever else you are so sure Manu mixes well with. Problem solved. Tony will start with Tim always.

[silverblk mystix]

hate to sound like a simpleton...

but I love both Tony & Manu's game...I think there is a bit of truth to the OP initial post---but don't think Tony is the problem...

I think this will be Pop's greatest challenge when Tony returns---to assist in the continuing gelling of the team---instead of hindering it...to orchestrate the RIGHT combinations and turn the different styles into a dangerous team...

I don't see it as an insult to parker---or his fans---to suggest that Manu makes other players around him better....Manu has a unique skillset and it is wonderful to witness when he is in top form...

TP has his own skillset and I would venture to say---that he may be even better offensively than Manu...

the fact that BOTH are on the spurs is one of the biggest blessings that the spurs have---and I FAIL to see how this has become a TP vs Manu thing...

[E-RockWill]

me too!!!:depressed i want 2003-2005 spurs basketball when everybody would drive,drive,drive towards the basket and either get fouled, or pass it up to a big man for an easy dunk/layup.

+1

[Parker2112]

I love Manu and am admittedly not all that fond of Tony personally-speaking, but threads like these are just ridiculous. Tony Parker shoots under orders from Pop. He is supposed to look to score.

Play Manu and RJ off the bench together- along with Blair, Malik and whomever else you are so sure Manu mixes well with. Problem solved. Tony will start with Tim always.

I agree with everything here. Understand that this became a Tony Parker discussion when a Parker fan piped in immediately to defend his boy. It was originally about much more than that.

As for the last part, my question to you is: when should the team stop accomodating Tony's skillset and when should Pop began to ask him to accomodate the skills of others?

[Parker2112]

hate to sound like a simpleton...

but I love both Tony & Manu's game...I think there is a bit of truth to the OP initial post---but don't think Tony is the problem...

I think this will be Pop's greatest challenge when Tony returns---to assist in the continuing gelling of the team---instead of hindering it...to orchestrate the RIGHT combinations and turn the different styles into a dangerous team...

I don't see it as an insult to parker---or his fans---to suggest that Manu makes other players around him better....Manu has a unique skillset and it is wonderful to witness when he is in top form...

TP has his own skillset and I would venture to say---that he may be even better offensively than Manu...

the fact that BOTH are on the spurs is one of the biggest blessings that the spurs have---and I FAIL to see how this has become a TP vs Manu thing...

See Timvp's post, response #1.

[HarlemHeat37]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season, so while he could drive more, it wouldn't make a huge difference..he can't consistently get by his man off the dribble anymore, he doesn't have the same athleticism that he used to pre-injuries..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type at this point, minus the defense..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with title aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

It was obvious that he had lost athleticism the last few years, especially lateral quickness, but it appears that the FO was banking on his "improved" shooting to make up for it..I won't say it was a bad read, because it's happened to many front offices, but it appears that it was a fluke for the most part..

[ploto]

when should the team stop accomodating Tony's skillset and when should Pop began to ask him to accomodate the skills of others?

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

[Parker2112]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with title aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

With more movement RJ would have more opportunities to attack the rim as defenses were not allowed to stay set against the two-man Parker/Duncan show while three guys held a spacing cusion and waited for a chance to brick.

As for RJ's shooting, he is one of a long line of guys who have come to the Spurs with the ability to shoot, only to see Pop's approach wring out every bit of confidence they may have had previously.

[z0sa]

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

Parker's jumpshot has been MIA this season.

And what happened to shooting 3's? Parker apparently decided shooting 3's will never be a regular part of his game.

[Trainwreck2100]

Ginobili rules, Parker sucks

hmm interesting

[Parker2112]

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

Tony's percentage on the jumper is as bad as it has ever been, if not worse. I don't claim to know why.

Pop and Tony seemed to have a disconnect right aroud the holidays, when Tony gave an interview insinuating that he didnt know what Pop wanted from him. The fact was that Tony was have trouble getting a feel for the new guys, and could not add "passer" to his resume. I think his quote ran something along the lines of (from memory) "first Pop wants me to shoot, then he wants me to pass..." "it feels like my rookie year all over..."

Pop doesnt want to rock the boat as far as Tony and Timmy are concerned. But if he doesnt I contend that we are headed for a cliff. The new guys will never be integrated if Tony continues running the starting point. Bench him, make him shooting guard, whatever, but we need to start developing the talent that will transition us beyond the Duncan era.

[Parker2112]

hmm interesting

:lmao

[murpjf88]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season, so while he could drive more, it wouldn't make a huge difference..he can't consistently get by his man off the dribble anymore, he doesn't have the same athleticism that he used to pre-injuries..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type at this point, minus the defense..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with title aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

It was obvious that he had lost athleticism the last few years, especially lateral quickness, but it appears that the FO was banking on his "improved" shooting to make up for it..I won't say it was a bad read, because it's happened to many front offices, but it appears that it was a fluke for the most part..

Finally, someone who gets it.

[whottt]

The title of this thread looks suspicioiusly like a Buck Harvey headline.

Sposed to not happen anymore dammit :nope

[Parker2112]

The title of this thread looks suspicioiusly like a Buck Harvey headline.

Sposed to not happen anymore dammit :nope

If he copies it I will promptly send a cease and desist letter.

[Express-News]

Lol I'm here ....

[kjhip1]

The one thing I think everyone can seem to agree on here is that with the addition of Malik, Ian (somewhat), and Cedric Jackson into the lineup the past 2-3 games we see players desperately playing D for minutes they play. I think POP's focus with his young players is that they concentrate on making correct defensive swithces and staying in front of thier man. POP wants D more then anything else. What's surprising is that all three are from the D-league and actually have a NBA ready game. Malik looks consdierably better and comfortable on offense. Ian looks to help on weak side and defends the basket at all costs. Cedric looks like he's trying to make up for his size (weight wize) with his long arms on the Defensive side.

Getting back to having Manu and RJ on the floor: its appears as though Rj likes the more uptempo style and immediately looks to drive when the game is fast paced. I beleive his offense will have to pick up come playoff time but really I'm more concentrated on him being the defender and rebounder he has been in the last couple of games. We know he can dunk and drive on the fastbreaks, but fundamentals he needs to get back to. Jefferson really is the X-factor. I think that this team is better then last year's if you want to talk about not having Manu as compared to not having TP. TP's points points can be replaced by the addtions to the team. His D is really not all that great. However, it still does help to have an all-star caliber player dressed to play then not at all. If Jefferson and Bonner will show up during the playoffs, then we have a chance. Manu looks to be back and Tim will do what he does for the playoffs. No matter who we face, we will have a chnace. So really all this one and done and play for the lottery type talk is garbage and TRUE Spurs fans need to keep the faith. The Spurs have been under the radar all season mostly due to injuries and players adapting to one of the most difficult schemes in the NBA. There is a reason to POP's madness, and he'll put out a lineup ready for the playoffs. After all, he has coached us to four championships, right?

[tp2021]

The one thing I think everyone can seem to agree on here is that with the addition of Malik, Ian (somewhat), and Cedric Jackson into the lineup the past 2-3 games we see players desperately playing D for minutes they play. I think POP's focus with his young players is that they concentrate on making correct defensive swithces and staying in front of thier man. POP wants D more then anything else. What's surprising is that all three are from the D-league and actually have a NBA ready game. Malik looks consdierably better and comfortable on offense. Ian looks to help on weak side and defends the basket at all costs. Cedric looks like he's trying to make up for his size (weight wize) with his long arms on the Defensive side.

Getting back to having Manu and RJ on the floor: its appears as though Rj likes the more uptempo style and immediately looks to drive when the game is fast paced. I beleive his offense will have to pick up come playoff time but really I'm more concentrated on him being the defender and rebounder he has been in the last couple of games. We know he can dunk and drive on the fastbreaks, but fundamentals he needs to get back to. Jefferson really is the X-factor. I think that this team is better then last year's if you want to talk about not having Manu as compared to not having TP. TP's points points can be replaced by the addtions to the team. His D is really not all that great. However, it still does help to have an all-star caliber player dressed to play then not at all. If Jefferson and Bonner will show up during the playoffs, then we have a chance. Manu looks to be back and Tim will do what he does for the playoffs. No matter who we face, we will have a chnace. So really all this one and done and play for the lottery type talk is garbage and TRUE Spurs fans need to keep the faith. The Spurs have been under the radar all season mostly due to injuries and players adapting to one of the most difficult schemes in the NBA. There is a reason to POP's madness, and he'll put out a lineup ready for the playoffs. After all, he has coached us to four championships, right?
You probably lost most of the people that were in agreement with you right there.

[ploto]

The new guys will never be integrated if Tony continues running the starting point.

Given that most of these guys you have mentioned are coming off the bench, how is this your solution?

[Parker2112]

Given that most of these guys you have mentioned are coming off the bench, how is this your solution?

Have you watched some of the garbage Pop starts? Bogans? Bonner? Finley? RJ at the 4?

He habitually keeps the talent on the bench. Is that because they interfere with the 2-man Duncan-Parker game? I say fuck that game. Lets play some team ball.

[kjhip1]

You probably lost most of the people that were in agreement with you right there.

but its the truth isn't it? Granted his lineups have been questionable, but honeslty POP isnt going to come out and say Bogans sucks, I know it, he knows it, the entire city of San Antonio knows it. He did say centerpiece but I really dont think some things he tells the media should be taken as his WORD, especially when talking about bogans...I mean how else do you explain his dropoff in minutes the past 2 games...Of course I'll bite myself in the foot when he tasks him to go agains D Wade tonight, but I honestly dont think he'll keep relying on Bogans come playoff time.

[ploto]

He habitually keeps the talent on the bench. Is that because they interfere with the 2-man Duncan-Parker game? I say fuck that game. Lets play some team ball.

So this is really about you wanting RJ back in the starting line-up.

[whottt]

Have you watched some of the garbage Pop starts? Bogans? Bonner? Finley? RJ at the 4?

He habitually keeps the talent on the bench. Is that because they interfere with the 2-man Duncan-Parker game? I say fuck that game. Lets play some team ball.

Pop plays the guys that do what he asks of them better, whether they are the more talented players or not. For instance, he always praises his defensive guys whether they are actually successsful defenders or not, because he wants his players to focus on defense over offense...

This is why he plays Bogans.
This is why he played Danny Ferry.
This is why he played Michael Finley.


It's not so much that he wants to play the less talented guys as it is that he wants the more talented guys to have the same mentality as the less talented guys.

He wants them to do exactly as he says. The guys barely in the NBA are more likely to do that than the guys with talent...and that's why those guys get minutes from Pop.


The worse thing you can do on offense, especially if you are the PG, on a Pop team, is not attempt to penetrate and score. Pop demands this of every PG who plays for him, including guys that absolutely suck at it like Jacque Vaghn. He also punishes the guys that hesitate to take open shots....

Tony is Pop's PG 100%. He is Pop's crowning achievement in terms of player development and the player who comes closest to realizing Pop's vision.


Keep in mind...Pop was a PG. All you guys that think Tony would be pulling starting minutes since the age of 19, if he wasn't doing what Pop wanted most of the time, are deluding yourselves.


On the flipside...I would say Manu is probably the most successful player who doesn't play like Pop wants....and the only reason Manu gets away with that is beause he is incredibly aggressive. Which is the main thing Pop is looking for from his guards.

[SenorSpur]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season, so while he could drive more, it wouldn't make a huge difference..he can't consistently get by his man off the dribble anymore, he doesn't have the same athleticism that he used to pre-injuries..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type at this point, minus the defense..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with title aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

It was obvious that he had lost athleticism the last few years, especially lateral quickness, but it appears that the FO was banking on his "improved" shooting to make up for it..I won't say it was a bad read, because it's happened to many front offices, but it appears that it was a fluke for the most part..

Couldn't agree more. At 29, he has lost some quickness and athleticism, but I also don't think that RJ is this bad of a player. I believe he's miscast with this team and this style of offense. Sounds like the FO "reached" and "deluded themselves" into thinking that this player would be a fit on both the offensive and defensive end. It simply hasn't worked for either party.

[Blackjack]

Bottom line, this is an ill-fitted team and there's just no way of getting around it.

But, having said that, if you want the team to maximize whatever potential they have in the playoffs ... Tony Parker being who he is and playing to the best of his ability is a huge part of that.

It's not about the Spurs accommodating, seemingly acquiescing, to Tony and seeing to it that he's successful for his own sake. The Spurs' best chance and hope lies in Tony Parker's ability to be Tony Parker; their success is dependent on it . . .

[Parker2112]

Pop plays the guys that do what he asks of them better, whether they are the more talented players or not. For instance, he always praises his defensive guys whether they are actually successsful defenders or not, because he wants his players to focus on defense over offense...

This is why he plays Bogans.
This is why he played Danny Ferry.
This is why he played Michael Finley.


It's not so much that he wants to play the less talented guys as it is that he wants the more talented guys to have the same mentality as the less talented guys.

He wants them to do exactly as he says. The guys barely in the NBA are more likely to do that than the guys with talent...and that's why those guys get minutes from Pop.


The worse thing you can do on offense, especially if you are the PG, on a Pop team, is not attempt to penetrate and score. Pop demands this of every PG who plays for him, including guys that absolutely suck at it like Jacque Vaghn. He also punishes the guys that hesitate to take open shots....

Tony is Pop's PG 100%. He is Pop's crowning achievement in terms of player development and the player who comes closest to realizing Pop's vision.


Keep in mind...Pop was a PG. All you guys that think Tony would be pulling starting minutes since the age of 19, if he wasn't doing what Pop wanted most of the time, are deluding yourselves.


On the flipside...I would say Manu is probably the most successful player who doesn't play like Pop wants....and the only reason Manu gets away with that is beause he is incredibly aggressive. Which is the main thing Pop is looking for from his guards.

This is why i get so excited when Pop is forced to play guys like Malik and Blair (no he didnt want to play him either at season's start)...because while I respect that Pop demands adherance to the gameplan, he underestimates the need for heart, fire, and young legs.

Tony absolutely does what Pop wants, I agree, but Pop needs to look around and realize that things changed drastically when we lost Horry and Bowen. Then he needs to implement a gameplan that allows us to utilize the players we do have, rather than requiring blind allegience to any outdated mode of attack that requires either Bonner or Bogans in the starting lineup.

[jjktkk]

The OP is not about Parker. It's about defense and transition benefiting Jefferson, and the fact that the guys on the floor are playing inspired ball which is what Jefferson needed to succeed.

But in the teary eyes of Parker fanboys, it is just another indictment of their fav player.

The thing is, before this year I would never have called Gino a facilitator...I would have called him a turnover machine.

Then you've only been watching the Spurs this year then. Ginoboli has always been a great passer. Since Parker's injury, Ginoboli's playmaking really stands out. Ginoboli, some can argue, might even be a better playmaker, in terms of asists and passes, than Parker, but Parker does a good job running the team. Parker's strength is his speed, which he uses to get to the rim to score, and also set up his teamates for scores. Parker has also improved his jump shot thru the years as well. Maybe Parker could play better defense, but he competes on the defensive end. You can't accurately evaluate Parker's game this year anyway because of the multiple injuries hes been trying to fight thru. When healthy, Parker is one of the top 5 pg's in the NBA and Parker, without a doubt, is a huge asset to the Spurs IMO. BTW my favorite player on the Spurs is Ginoboli.

[ChumpDumper]

This is why i get so excited when Pop is forced to play guys like Malik and Blair (no he didnt want to play him either at season's start)Sorry, he played Blair from with a small dip before Thanksgiving.

[Parker2112]

Bottom line, this is an ill-fitted team and there's just no way of getting around it.

But, having said that, if you want the team to maximize whatever potential they have in the playoffs ... Tony Parker being who he is and playing to the best of his ability is a huge part of that.

It's not about the Spurs accommodating, seemingly acquiescing, to Tony and seeing to it that he's successful for his own sake. The Spurs' best chance and hope lies in Tony Parker's ability to be Tony Parker; their success is dependent on it . . .

Actually, over the years I have watched the Spurs dismantle teams by letting any single player go off, while shutting down every other option. I've seen Kobe, Amare, KG, etc get theirs, while we won titles.

That is why I think we need a successful team approach that incorporates more guys, rather than a reliance on Parker as everyone else mans the three point line.

If Parker dictates that the offense look like a pick and roll and three stiffs at the arch, let him do it from the bench...or better yet make him your SG and let the ball come to him through the flow of the offense.

Thats all useless talk anyway. He wont be the TP of old any time this season

[jjktkk]

Parker would make a great sixth man. Only homer Spur fans overrate Parker.

LOL, only homer fans overrate Parker, but Parker would make a great sixth man. Isn't that kinda of a oxymoron statement? We overrate him, but he would make a great sixth man? But personally I don't know that Parker would make a great sixth man. It sure looks good in theory and on paper, but Parker would have to swallow some of his pride, like Ginoboli did, in order for it to work. I really don't have a clue if Parker can do that or not. Not every star can make the transistion from starter to 6th man.

[DAF86]

Parker would make a great sixth man. Only homer Spur fans overrate Parker.

lol, Parker is the most underrated Spurs player by Spurs fans.

[jjktkk]

Me too!!!:depressed I want 2003-2005 Spurs basketball when everybody would drive,drive,drive towards the basket and either get fouled, or pass it up to a big man for an easy dunk/layup.

Yea I would love that too. Parker was one the facilitators on those 2003-2005 teams driving towards to basket and either getting an easy layup, or dishing it off to teammates for a dunk, or a wide open 3. Thats one of Parker's biggest strengths, his ability to get to the rim. When hes healthy, Parker makes getting to the rim look easy. Which makes it really puzzling why theres all the hate on this thread about Parker.

[jjktkk]

Sorry Parker-lovers, but if you can't see his flaws now, you never will.

Dude calls his own number above all else. His attitude should be much different since he's clearly injured. He had his chances; Pop gave him play calling ability. He should have been pounding the rock into RJ much more often.

You can't blame him for failing his role, though, especially since he's hobbled; blame Pop for placing him in a situation where he can't succeed. Basing a talented scoring team around a score first, clearly hobbled PG is a mistake 100% of the time.

Also, saying our guys should "catch up" with him on the break when he's been hobbled all season is pretty funny. I've been very disappointed in his decision making, whether it be in the break or in the half court, all season.

Don't most players have flaws? IMO the closest it comes to a perfect player in the NBA would be Lebron James. Sure Parker has flaws. Just like Duncan, Ginoboli, Koby Bryant, Dwight Howard, etc.... But Parker's strength's easily overcome his flaws IMO.

[Charles Sappa]

The club's top scorer of 2 or more seasons ago Tony Parker can not create game to the other directly, this is pure logic. However, as Parker draws the attention of rivals somehow manages to have his teammates play.
Parker is what my country is known as "binge"

I never wonder Tony as a great passer. Amazed at their great speed and the points at the counterattack. Assists Its not spectacular as were those of Magic Johnson or John Stockton

[roycrikside]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.

The truth shall set you free LJ. Tony doesn't suck, but he doesn't make anyone better either. Maybe we should waste more time arguing about the policies of a newspaper trying like hell to survive in this economy.

[jjktkk]

Parker's jumpshot has been MIA this season.

And what happened to shooting 3's? Parker apparently decided shooting 3's will never be a regular part of his game.

Whats wrong with that? Parker's 3-point shooting will never be a strength, so why, unless its absolutely his last option, should Parker start throwing up 3-pointers? BTW I haven't seen any evidence that Parker's jumpshot is MIA this season. He might not be attempting a whole lot of 3's this year, but hes still hitting his mid-range jumpshots.

[Mixability]

Just go to the hole, RJ!

[dastrey]

Tony's percentage on the jumper is as bad as it has ever been, if not worse. I don't claim to know why.


Dude is playing injured. Did you watch the Spurs play last year? The year without Manu? We started Mason, Finley and Bonner and were still able to win games. That was because Parker played at a very high level all year. He was healthy and received a very much deserved All-NBA 3rd team.
Now you criticize him when he is injured and attribute Jefferson's problems to him? If you watch the games recently you will notice that Jefferson's success has been against the bottom of the barrel teams, not Manu's passing. He will go back to disappearing against teams who rotate on defense. You need to change your screen name because you obviously don't know how good Parker really is.

[z0sa]

Don't most players have flaws? IMO the closest it comes to a perfect player in the NBA would be Lebron James. Sure Parker has flaws. Just like Duncan, Ginoboli, Koby Bryant, Dwight Howard, etc.... But Parker's strength's easily overcome his flaws IMO.

I agree, but Parker had a lot more flaws in the past and overcame them like the champion he is. He's as much in control of this team (on the floor) as Pop is. He should have taken it upon himself personally to get RJ involved often, at the expensive of his own stats.. I don't think this should have been a personal decision, just making the best decisions for the team. Especially since Parker knows better than anyone how hurt he's been.

But like I said, blame Pop. He's the one telling an injured Parker he's the first and second options out there. He's 100% behind what Parker's doing, so there's no reason for him to stop doing it. When he's on, I don't want him to, either, but that's been rare this season.

[roycrikside]

Tony is Pop's PG 100%. He is Pop's crowning achievement in terms of player development and the player who comes closest to realizing Pop's vision.


Keep in mind...Pop was a PG. All you guys that think Tony would be pulling starting minutes since the age of 19, if he wasn't doing what Pop wanted most of the time, are deluding yourselves.


On the flipside...I would say Manu is probably the most successful player who doesn't play like Pop wants....and the only reason Manu gets away with that is beause he is incredibly aggressive. Which is the main thing Pop is looking for from his guards.

If you think Tony's been playing defense the way Pop wants him to, it's you who's delusional. Simply put Tony was on the floor so much the past few years because the team desperately needed his scoring. With guys like Oberto, Thomas, Finley and Bonner in the rotation, points are at a premium, especially when Manu was hurt.

As Hill and Blair develop, as Jefferson finds his niche in the offense, and as Bonner feels more and more comfortable putting the ball on the floor, scoring points is getting easier for this club. It's the defense that's lacking.

As far as Tony's style of play as a point guard goes, I don't think Pop finds it at all ideal. I think he just realized long ago - as he did with Manu - that the strengths and weaknesses are what they are and he's going to have to work around them. He knows Tony had the desire and work ethic to improve his game as a scorer, so he encouraged him to do so. Instead of working on his weaknesses, Tony "strengthened his strength" as many athletes do. And that's not a bad thing. It's not ideal, but any area a player improves his game is helpful in its own way.

[jjktkk]

but its the truth isn't it? Granted his lineups have been questionable, but honeslty POP isnt going to come out and say Bogans sucks, I know it, he knows it, the entire city of San Antonio knows it. He did say centerpiece but I really dont think some things he tells the media should be taken as his WORD, especially when talking about bogans...I mean how else do you explain his dropoff in minutes the past 2 games...Of course I'll bite myself in the foot when he tasks him to go agains D Wade tonight, but I honestly dont think he'll keep relying on Bogans come playoff time.

When Pop commented on his "centerpiece" theory of coaching. In the past, Bowen was Pop's centerpiece, and obviously the coaching strategy was successful. This year Pop wanted Bogan to be that centerpiece, because, prior to the season starting, Pop deemed that Bogan's was the best option on this current roster at the time. Obviously Bogans is not the answer. Hairston looks like he would be a great candidate for Pop's centerpiece role. But Pop is notorious for relying on veteran players and is slow to come around to younger players. I hope Hairston gets a chance in the playoffs to showcase his ability to play Pop's centerpiece role.

[mingus]

the spurs have played their ball when parker isn't in. i think that's pretty telling.

[Parker2112]

If you think Tony's been playing defense the way Pop wants him to, it's you who's delusional. Simply put Tony was on the floor so much the past few years because the team desperately needed his scoring. With guys like Oberto, Thomas, Finley and Bonner in the rotation, points are at a premium, especially when Manu was hurt.

As Hill and Blair develop, as Jefferson finds his niche in the offense, and as Bonner feels more and more comfortable putting the ball on the floor, scoring points is getting easier for this club. It's the defense that's lacking.

As far as Tony's style of play as a point guard goes, I don't think Pop finds it at all ideal. I think he just realized long ago - as he did with Manu - that the strengths and weaknesses are what they are and he's going to have to work around them. He knows Tony had the desire and work ethic to improve his game as a scorer, so he encouraged him to do so. Instead of working on his weaknesses, Tony "strengthened his strength" as many athletes do. And that's not a bad thing. It's not ideal, but any area a player improves his game is helpful in its own way.

Solid Take :tu

[jjktkk]

I agree, but Parker had a lot more flaws in the past and overcame them like the champion he is. He's as much in control of this team (on the floor) as Pop is. He should have taken it upon himself personally to get RJ involved often, at the expensive of his own stats.. I don't think this should have been a personal decision, just making the best decisions for the team. Especially since Parker knows better than anyone how hurt he's been.

But like I said, blame Pop. He's the one telling an injured Parker he's the first and second options out there. He's 100% behind what Parker's doing, so there's no reason for him to stop doing it. When he's on, I don't want him to, either, but that's been rare this season.

But doesn't Parker's injuries have something to do with his less than stellar play this season?

[Blackjack]

Actually, over the years I have watched the Spurs dismantle teams by letting any single player go off, while shutting down every other option. I've seen Kobe, Amare, KG, etc get theirs, while we won titles.

That is why I think we need a successful team approach that incorporates more guys, rather than a reliance on Parker as everyone else mans the three point line.

If Parker dictates that the offense look like a pick and roll and three stiffs at the arch, let him do it from the bench...or better yet make him your SG and let the ball come to him through the flow of the offense.

Thats all useless talk anyway. He wont be the TP of old any time this season

The Spurs were probably playing their best ball of the year before Tony went down; Pop finally settled on his lineup. What you're failing to take into consideration is the importance of continuity and certainty in players' roles.

I didn't suggest it was my preference or belief for this team to be lead by an AI clone or that Tony was indeed one. But if this team has any shot of doing anything in the playoffs, they need their Big 3 playing at their best; throwing Tony on the bench and changing roles and rotations will net this team more of the same: failure.

I'm not a huge fan of Tony's game, but I do respect it. And I'm not foolish enough to think that somehow, for all intents and purposes, neutering his game and changing the way he and the team has gone about things for the better part of a decade is going to be all that beneficial.

The Spurs finally discovered something that had somewhat borne fruit before Tony went down and if they're to do anything once he returns ... their best bet is to see if it can't be rediscovered.

[jjktkk]

the spurs have played their ball when parker isn't in. i think that's pretty telling.

Don't good teams bond together and play well when one of their star players is out of the lineup? Are you saying the Spurs are a better team without Parker?

[z0sa]

But doesn't Parker's injuries have something to do with his less than stellar play this season?

That's my point. Since injuries have caused him to underachieve, he should have called his own number less. Pop should have been on it, though. He should realize we can't win unless Parker has a lot of help.

[urunobili]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

This... I still can't believe how anybody in the world would seriously think that TP would work better for this team off the bench...

Never posted on any of those threads cause i have always thought they were troll fodder ones...

Now with Chump saying this... it seems it was seriously discussed. :wow

[Brazil]

When spurs will loose a game badly with TP out and RJ being scoreless, the RJ sucks by his own threads will come back and the 0 chance to win it all without TP threads will come back again....

[Brazil]

The truth shall set you free LJ. Tony doesn't suck, but he doesn't make anyone better either. Maybe we should waste more time arguing about the policies of a newspaper trying like hell to survive in this economy.

we have a winner

[Charles Sappa]

We must note that was played last 3 games against mediocre teams, the game had to win was against Cleveland (Without Lebron)

If we lose 2 games in a row, Manu will not be so admired by Jefferson

[whottt]

If you think Tony's been playing defense the way Pop wants him to, it's you who's delusional. Simply put Tony was on the floor so much the past few years because the team desperately needed his scoring. With guys like Oberto, Thomas, Finley and Bonner in the rotation, points are at a premium, especially when Manu was hurt.

As Hill and Blair develop, as Jefferson finds his niche in the offense, and as Bonner feels more and more comfortable putting the ball on the floor, scoring points is getting easier for this club. It's the defense that's lacking.

As far as Tony's style of play as a point guard goes, I don't think Pop finds it at all ideal. I think he just realized long ago - as he did with Manu - that the strengths and weaknesses are what they are and he's going to have to work around them. He knows Tony had the desire and work ethic to improve his game as a scorer, so he encouraged him to do so. Instead of working on his weaknesses, Tony "strengthened his strength" as many athletes do. And that's not a bad thing. It's not ideal, but any area a player improves his game is helpful in its own way.
Try not to take this the wrong way, but I have zero desire to argue with you. Just chalk it up to you presenting an incredibly challenging argument and me wanting no part of it :tu

[HarlemHeat37]

It's funny how much people shit on Tony Parker here..it's like the guy never contributed to 3 titles and won a Finals MVP..it's not like he carried us last season when Duncan and Ginobili were hurt..some people are always looking for reasons to bash him..

The funniest part of all might be that they praise George Hill for his playing style and teamwork, when Parker is clearly levels above Hill as a passer and as a PG..Hill's defense has also been TERRIBLE as a starter, probably worse than Parker's, yet people seem to believe otherwise..

If somebody wants to argue that an injured Tony Parker has hurt the Spurs to an extent, then I don't mind the argument..the logical fans understand Tony hasn't been the same due to injuries this season, but a LARGE part of SpursTalk will always criticize Parker for his playing style and various other reasons..it's probably the most annoying fetish on SpursTalk, these people that are obsessed with getting a pure pass first PG(which is ironic, because a lot of them continue to praise George Hill and insult Parker at the same time, when George is the complete opposite of a pure pass first PG)..

The Spurs have won multiple titles with Tony Parker playing the way he has..he averaged 7.3 APG in the 2nd half of the season last year when he had to carry the load, he's averaging around 5.5-6APG this season, which is what you would expect in this system..

What people seem to ignore is that Richard Jefferson's usage % went up by a few points in December and January..I was asking for the Spurs to run plays for him and I always defended him..they DID run plays for him for a few weeks, and he DIDN'T respond well..Parker never had a problem with it, why would he?..he's never been a selfish player..

When the option is between Tony Parker creating his own offense or somehow getting Richard Jefferson involved, which one would you pick?..I'll take one of the most efficient scoring PGs of all-time instead of some above average player..

The 4th option was supposed to be a guy that can create his own offense and help the big 3, not a guy that needs somebody to create everything for him..you guys basically want Jefferson to be Malik Hairston, getting fed for dunks by his PG..he's supposed to be able to create his own offense..for a good month or so, the Spurs did run a lot of plays for him..they had him coming off screens for open Js time after time, they implemented an alley-oop play, they gave him post ups..the guy didn't respond, his jump shot has been killed..what the fuck do you want Parker to do here?..

Some people seem to forget that the big 3 are all very good at playing off the ball..they all cut well, they're all smart players, they all finish very well..it would have been nice to have a 4th guy that could have created for them too, instead of having people criticize Parker and Duncan for not creating well enough for Jefferson..

The Spurs had 3 quality wins in a row when Tony Parker returned from his rest..against Phoenix and New Orleans, an above average team and a good team..Parker played phenomenal in those games and looked like last year's Parker since he had fresh legs..he also said that his PF was getting better..now all of a sudden, after beating some of the worst teams in the NBA, the Spurs are better without him and they're getting praise?..

Let's see them consistently beat some good teams without him, then we can talk..shit, I know people are always going to bash TP, but it's funny that they do it now to defend Richard fucking Jefferson, a guy that isn't entitled to shit..

[Ignignokt]

This thread was about to have a bottle of Whott Sauce on it, but Whott twhotted out.

[spursfaninla]

I'm not a huge fan of Tony's game, but I do respect it. And I'm not foolish enough to think that somehow, for all intents and purposes, neutering his game and changing the way he and the team has gone about things for the better part of a decade is going to be all that beneficial.



People complain that RJ NEEDS a certain type of basketball to succeed, and that Tony should either adjust or become the 6th man.

Well, adjusting is a bad plan. He will go as RJ has gone...he will play poorly.

But, it has been noted that RJ, Manu and Blair play well together. Well, that is fine. I think a starting lineup of TP, Manu, RJ, Blair, Duncan is easily our most talented lineup anyway.

As long as we diversity our offense to allow TP and duncan to get enough touches, as well as letting manu initiate the offense, it will be the most balanced and will be more difficult to defend.

I think that as long as Manu and RJ get 30 minutes where they are doing more than jump shooting from kickouts from parker, they will be effective.

Similarly, when Blair/bonner/dice each get 20+, and Hairston is in the mix, we have enough offensive diversity to take advantage of motion-offense plays, post play, mid-range jumpers, and have some 3pt shooting for the PNR with duncan/parker.

I don't get why people make it an either/or with Parker OR manu. They have co-existed in the past; now, we just happen to have more players who play better in manu's style, so we have to adjust to that as a team. That does not mean you ditch Parker's game or reduce his minutes; he is the best pure scorer on the team.

[Charles Sappa]

People have short memories. These anti-parker posts are going to keep repeating if San Antonio continues on the path to success.
I hope we finish fifth and play against Utah in first round. With Tony recovered (Tony arrived on time for the playoffs?)

There is no way San Antonio win another ring without Parker. Sorry Hill still have to see how you play the playoffs.

Sorry for my poor English

[Express-News]

We must note that was played last 3 games against mediocre teams, the game had to win was against Cleveland (Without Lebron)

If we lose 2 games in a row, Manu will not be so admired by Jefferson

Now.... what you've got in your sig son isn't something of this world..... can I have her name please?..... I need to register a couple of pics.

[DPG21920]

:lol at people bashing TP's defense. Hurt TP ='s sucking all around. Healthy TP ='s very good defender.

[pjjrfan]

I absolutely love Manu's game, always have, I think Parker is a great talent but I have never been high on Pt. guards that look to score first, but then that's the trend now for a lot of teams. But whatever my likes or dislikes I know that a healthy Tony, a healthy Manu and a healthy Tim is what this team needs to be successful, and for most of this year all 3 have had injury issues this year and Tony's had the most. And my opinion of RJ is still the same, Choker with a capital C. So I like that he is doing well but he should have figured some way to be a contributor for this team a long time ago.

[lennyalderette]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.
hate to say it but its very true, and sadly obvious. parker is a(n) older version of monta ellis. yes everyone knows how much frenchie scores but theres no intangibles o these guys very one dimensional and self centered. i would much rather keep manu than have tony on my team and i think all of san antonio would agree with me

[Charles Sappa]

Now.... what you've got in your sig son isn't something of this world..... can I have her name please?..... I need to register a couple of pics.

It is a Colombian model. She has a twin sister who also is a model. Her name is Camila Davalos

I leave a link with more photos

http://www.poringa.net/posts/imagenes/1397157/Megapost-de-las-gemelas-Camila-y-Mariana--Davalos.html (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/Camila%20Davalos)

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL..no intangibles, he just has 3 titles and a Finals MVP..

[jjktkk]

It's funny how much people shit on Tony Parker here..it's like the guy never contributed to 3 titles and won a Finals MVP..it's not like he carried us last season when Duncan and Ginobili were hurt..some people are always looking for reasons to bash him..

The funniest part of all might be that they praise George Hill for his playing style and teamwork, when Parker is clearly levels above Hill as a passer and as a PG..Hill's defense has also been TERRIBLE as a starter, probably worse than Parker's, yet people seem to believe otherwise..

If somebody wants to argue that an injured Tony Parker has hurt the Spurs to an extent, then I don't mind the argument..the logical fans understand Tony hasn't been the same due to injuries this season, but a LARGE part of SpursTalk will always criticize Parker for his playing style and various other reasons..it's probably the most annoying fetish on SpursTalk, these people that are obsessed with getting a pure pass first PG(which is ironic, because a lot of them continue to praise George Hill and insult Parker at the same time, when George is the complete opposite of a pure pass first PG)..

The Spurs have won multiple titles with Tony Parker playing the way he has..he averaged 7.3 APG in the 2nd half of the season last year when he had to carry the load, he's averaging around 5.5-6APG this season, which is what you would expect in this system..

What people seem to ignore is that Richard Jefferson's usage % went up by a few points in December and January..I was asking for the Spurs to run plays for him and I always defended him..they DID run plays for him for a few weeks, and he DIDN'T respond well..Parker never had a problem with it, why would he?..he's never been a selfish player..

When the option is between Tony Parker creating his own offense or somehow getting Richard Jefferson involved, which one would you pick?..I'll take one of the most efficient scoring PGs of all-time instead of some above average player..

The 4th option was supposed to be a guy that can create his own offense and help the big 3, not a guy that needs somebody to create everything for him..you guys basically want Jefferson to be Malik Hairston, getting fed for dunks by his PG..he's supposed to be able to create his own offense..for a good month or so, the Spurs did run a lot of plays for him..they had him coming off screens for open Js time after time, they implemented an alley-oop play, they gave him post ups..the guy didn't respond, his jump shot has been killed..what the fuck do you want Parker to do here?..

Some people seem to forget that the big 3 are all very good at playing off the ball..they all cut well, they're all smart players, they all finish very well..it would have been nice to have a 4th guy that could have created for them too, instead of having people criticize Parker and Duncan for not creating well enough for Jefferson..

The Spurs had 3 quality wins in a row when Tony Parker returned from his rest..against Phoenix and New Orleans, an above average team and a good team..Parker played phenomenal in those games and looked like last year's Parker since he had fresh legs..he also said that his PF was getting better..now all of a sudden, after beating some of the worst teams in the NBA, the Spurs are better without him and they're getting praise?..

Let's see them consistently beat some good teams without him, then we can talk..shit, I know people are always going to bash TP, but it's funny that they do it now to defend Richard fucking Jefferson, a guy that isn't entitled to shit..

+1:toast

[lennyalderette]

With all respect, I'll put some of my intellectual property on the table here at no cost just to illuminate some naive posters.... obviously since our articles were forbidden here, the forums isn't the same.............................................. . you idiots can't measure what the team has done without Parker untill they play some real teams.... they have played scrub during this stretch. jezz
not true every time we played dallas we beat them easy without parker! you know why???? let me tell you because on the other end their pg wasnt able to get in rhythm do you know why? because when parker doesnt play all other pgs we have had actually take pride in defense . when we beat dallas they were on win streaks i believe both times. like i said if your afraid to lose parker in a trade we can always get monta ellis and get the same result

[jjktkk]

hate to say it but its very true, and sadly obvious. parker is a(n) older version of monta ellis. yes everyone knows how much frenchie scores but theres no intangibles o these guys very one dimensional and self centered. i would much rather keep manu than have tony on my team and i think all of san antonio would agree with me

Wow, all of San Antonio would agree with you? Did you already go door to door and ask everyone in San Antonio? You must be exhausted. I'm gonna have disagree with you on that buddy.

[lennyalderette]

LOL..no intangibles, he just has 3 titles and a Finals MVP..

yea he can score on command when healthy* but if he were that great he would have carried us a lil further in the playoffs w/out manu! think about it, no manu=no chance in hell!! no parker=we dont know just yet but so far looks about the same as when hes on the court. what im saying is if im so out of line please tell me the other things tony brings to the table other than scoring, lets say hes not scoring well that night. im not trying to start an argument, but im not going to sit here and act like tonys more important than manu

[lennyalderette]

Wow, all of San Antonio would agree with you? Did you already go door to door and ask everyone in San Antonio? You must be exhausted. I'm gonna have disagree with you on that buddy.
well now i have to say half of san antonio since your opinion is so highly regarded here. try going out to a bar (a real bar) and ask around see whay they say

[kaji157]

I think some thing are going out of control here, and there are some that state things as fact that aren't.

1- Fact everyone implys without sayin it.
Manu and Tony can't play together.
You can look to our 2004-2005 season to review this point. Manu played great and so did Tony.

2- Fact we always need a 6th Man.
Again, 2004-2005 season...

I think if you remove these off your head, everything is possible.
You can start Manu and Tony, which play well together, give less shots to Tony and that way Manu gets to handle a little more and involve others. Manu exits early for Hill so he can get going and then he enter for Parker to pair up with Blair and Hill.
Jefferson moves the same as Manu.
Everyone is happy.

[DAF86]

It is a Colombian model. She has a twin sister who also is a model. Her name is Camila Davalos

I leave a link with more photos

http://www.poringa.net/posts/imagenes/1397157/Megapost-de-las-gemelas-Camila-y-Mariana--Davalos.html (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/Camila%20Davalos)

Best post on this thread. :tu

[Charles Sappa]

Thanks DAF86 pareces que visitas Poringa habitualmente jaja

[it's me]

best post on this thread. :tu

+1

[mingus]

Hill fits this team better. been saying it for a while, and was suspicious that that would be the case when the Spurs brought RJ in. it takes absolutely nothing away from Parker to say that. he contributed to three championships and won a Finals MVP, and the Spurs wouldn't have won w/o him, but this is clearly a different team. i don't know why people use that as an argument when it is irrelevent.

i've said it for a while that RJ's and Parker's style of play don't mesh well together. both of them on the floor together provides the Spurs with only one perimiter jumpshooter. the Spurs have always had at least two out there in all their championships. it been a theme in system. the 3-ball has been as important to the Spurs success over the years as defense. it's not only the three point shot, it's the spacing that allows others to operate when it's a threat.

[HarlemHeat37]

We're not getting rid of Parker just so Richard Jefferson can fit better..it's a moot point anyways..if the Spurs want to be a contender next year, they have to hope somebody trades for Jefferson's expiring contract anyways..he's not a player that can play championship-level basketball..

[Waps1980]

I’m new to the board and of late I keep reading ‘have you forgotten that Tony won us 3 rings’
No we haven’t the man was a machine……’was’ a machine…….still is from time to time don’t get me wrong, and maybe at 100% still is all the time.

But we need to look at the now and if our best team is without him then that’s our best team.
We seem to be playing pretty good Basketball right now.

On a side note: If we keep the mind set of ‘this is what they did for us in the past, so we must keep playing them’ we’ll end up with a team of 40yo getting killed out there.
This is not the case now TP still has heaps to give, but may not be the best PG for this team to succeed in 2010.

With TP fit we have 2 outstanding units
Duncan, TP + who cares 3x3point shooters would work best
Manu, Hairston, RJ, Blair, Bonner/Dice

[ploto]

the spurs have played their ball when parker isn't in. i think that's pretty telling.

The Spurs have beaten the Knicks, Twolves, Clippers, and Heat. They lost to the one good team- the Cavs.

[JustinJDW]

How can you expect Tim not to allow some points in the paint when he's our only fucking big defender?This is true. It pisses me off when people point the finger at Timmy because he has been busting his ass this Season.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan has by far the best overall defensive numbers on the team when it comes to advanced stats and importance..it's pretty laughable that somebody would say our D is better without him, the stats show(not that we needed stats for this) that our D is much worse without him on the floor..

His minutes have been "limited" during this "hot stretch" because the games have been blowouts at certain points of the games..obviously..

The OP seems to ignore the opponents during this span too..his post was just so full of fail in every possible way..

[NRHector]

The Spurs have beaten the Knicks, Twolves, Clippers, and Heat. They lost to the one good team- the Cavs.I called that game an adjustment game because Manu was starting and was the PG so he had to do some adjustment to his game, also nobody else stepped up to the challenge besides Manu,Blair and Hill.
Now that the adjustment have been made I think they can win some more games to move up in the standing.

[roycrikside]

Parker obviously needs to slow down and wait for his teammates to catch up with him on fast breaks so he can pass to them.

Threads like this would be less annoying if Manu had been treated the same way when he was injured.

Yeah, because there aren't a thousand posts from people here saying Manu "sucked" and "let the team down" for two straight years when he had a great 2008 season and first two rounds of the playoffs. All people remember is the Lakers series.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't half the board want Manu traded like three months ago? People who are ripping Tony now don't want him traded as far as I know. I sure don't. I just want him to play better defense when he comes back, and I think since his stamina and rhythm won't be there and the team will have a set rotation going into the playoffs, it'd be smart to have him come off the bench in a Vinny Johnson role.

[Parker2112]

Duncan has by far the best overall defensive numbers on the team when it comes to advanced stats and importance..it's pretty laughable that somebody would say our D is better without him, the stats show(not that we needed stats for this) that our D is much worse without him on the floor..

His minutes have been "limited" during this "hot stretch" because the games have been blowouts at certain points of the games..obviously..

The OP seems to ignore the opponents during this span too..his post was just so full of fail in every possible way..

Just because you can type the word "fail" doesnt make it so.

Where did I ever say any of that bullshit? I never said we were better off without Timmy. Can you fucking read? I said he isn't playing good D. If your putting words in my mouth, I'm starting to not like you Harlem.

The fact is our team is coming together now, after months of searching. That strongly implies that Manu is the gel these guys needed, and that watching guys struggle with Tony at the helm is no coincidence.

[Parker2112]

This is true. It pisses me off when people point the finger at Timmy because he has been busting his ass this Season.

he can play better. if he is hurt, then he gets a pass.

[HarlemHeat37]

Are you serious right now?..

The Spurs won 3 quality games before Parker hurt his hand, with Tony having 3 big games..so now that they've beaten some bad teams without him, they're "gelling"? LOL..please..

After months of searching, the Spurs now have it together by beating New York, Minnesota, the Clippers and a horribly inconsistent Miami team?..damn, what a stretch..LOL..

You also clearly said that the defense got better partly because Duncan's minutes have been limited, which you can't possibly back up with any facts..as I said, Duncan has the best defensive numbers on the team from both an individual standpoint and an importance standpoint..his minutes were lower because the games were blowouts, due to facing poor teams and Duncan being on the floor while the game was being blown out by the Spurs..

[Parker2112]

Are you serious right now?..

The Spurs won 3 quality games before Parker hurt his hand, with Tony having 3 big games..so now that they've beaten some bad teams without him, they're "gelling"? LOL..please..

After months of searching, the Spurs now have it together by beating New York, Minnesota, the Clippers and a horribly inconsistent Miami team?..damn, what a stretch..LOL..

You also clearly said that the defense got better partly because Duncan's minutes have been limited, which you can't possibly back up with any facts..as I said, Duncan has the best defensive numbers on the team from both an individual standpoint and an importance standpoint..his minutes were lower because the games were blowouts, due to facing poor teams and Duncan being on the floor while the game was being blown out by the Spurs..

What stats are you referring to?

And as for our team, we are playing D, playing with heart, playing to win...not rolling over and dying on a regular basis. Early in the season we won games by the skin of our teeth that we should have won big. I dont even call those wins. When we play hard like tonight, I dont care who we play Im proud of our guys. They dug in, limited Wade, held Miami to 38-39%, and I am proud of the performance. Timmy struggled with his shot but stuck with it as well.

We played the right way. The Spurs way. Defense and execution and grit. Remind me, which of those things is Parker known for? Maybe execution.

Fact is, if we play the rest of the season with heart, I dont care how we finish Ill be proud of our team. And if I think we can do better, Ill say it without hesitation, I dont care who wears the number on the jersey.

As for Duncan, I think he is hurt. But I also think he is going through the motions at times. I would venture to say that he feels hopeless with this squad, too hopeless to sell out with what little health he has left. I hope that changes.

But it has taken young guys who have something at stake to remind what defense from a Spurs squad looks like. And thats fucking fact. Spin it how you like, but we havent played team D all year. And Tim and Tony are a HUGE 2/5's of the team.

[mingus]

We're not getting rid of Parker just so Richard Jefferson can fit better..it's a moot point anyways..if the Spurs want to be a contender next year, they have to hope somebody trades for Jefferson's expiring contract anyways..he's not a player that can play championship-level basketball..

i don't know if you are responding to my post here, but i'm guessing you are.

anyway, i never suggested to trade Parker. i would rather trade RJ because it's obvious he's the better talent of the two and not to mention less money.

imo one of them needs to go and it'll be RJ. he'll probably be somewhat of a commodity next year (isn't he an expiring contract).

the Spurs need two 3-point threats on the perimiter for their offense to work though. unless they find a way to make their offense work with both of them on the floor, leaving behind their old recipe for success for a new one, then okay, but it's not going to happen. there's a reason it didn't happen all season. it had nothing to do with an adjustment period. that's a load of bull and a way thinking that stems from a biased optimism. there games are completely incompatible and neither one of them can help it. that's where the FO needs to step up to the plate and fixt it by trading RJ because like you said he's not worth trading parker for. that's just retarded, obviously.

RJ needs to be gotten rid of for a defender/3-point threat (AKA Bruce Bowen part II)

[Parker2112]

I actually think best case scenario is take the ball out of Parker's hands, make him a shooting guard, let someone else facilitate the offense, and let Tony have plays run just for him. Stop with the drive and kick, Im tired of having off nights, stop with the two man game, teams have us planned to a T.

Benching Parker works for me to, but I'm in the minority I know.

[Mel_13]

We played the right way. The Spurs way. Defense and execution and grit. Remind me, which of those things is Parker known for? Maybe execution.


To refresh your memory. First 20 seconds.

aIv68zhwNQs

[Parker2112]

To refresh your memory. First 20 seconds.

aIv68zhwNQs

I forgot that stuff like that ever happened. It certainly didnt happen last year. Nor this one.

[beirmeistr]

I think some thing are going out of control here, and there are some that state things as fact that aren't.

1- Fact everyone implys without sayin it.
Manu and Tony can't play together.
You can look to our 2004-2005 season to review this point. Manu played great and so did Tony.

2- Fact we always need a 6th Man.
Again, 2004-2005 season...

I think if you remove these off your head, everything is possible.
You can start Manu and Tony, which play well together, give less shots to Tony and that way Manu gets to handle a little more and involve others. Manu exits early for Hill so he can get going and then he enter for Parker to pair up with Blair and Hill.

.
Jefferson moves the same as Manu.
Everyone is happy.


This plan might be a good solution.

[whottt]

I forgot that stuff like that ever happened. It certainly didnt happen last year. Nor this one.

That's why I didn't bother arguing with rockyroads. Parker has never matched up with typical PG's that well...but he usually does match up with smaller 2 guards or bigger pg's...it's weird because you would think Parker would do better in speed on speed matchups but he actually does better against guys that attempt to muscle him.

Tony is a lot stronger and tougher than people give him credit for, mentally and physically...

And the fact that people want to throw Tony under the bus now that's he's a little beat up after hitting the floor and taking more punishment in the paint than any PG in the league the last 10 years is pretty weak.

Tony is very capable defender and I'd say for most of his career he's been the second best perimeter defender on the team after Bowen....

Keep in mind, the Spurs had one of the great defensive runs in NBA history up until about 2 years ago and Parker was a huge reason for that. He matches up with bigger stronger guards well and he sticks to the system...add all that to the fact that he pulled of the freak accomplishment of leading the NBA in points in the paint and is fearless about taking it to the hoop...and he's an awesome player and there is no way in hell we will get anyone better than he is.

He and Manu are different types of players, yes Manu does a better job of making other players better, but Tony Parker is one of the most dominant matchups in the league on an indivual level. The media would never shut about Tony if he played for a big market team. He'd be the most hyped point guard in the league if he played in NY or LA.

[Indazone]

Spurs are definately better with Manu running point. He's unselfish, makes the passes, penetrates, scores. Parker is dribble into the paint, put it up get ball stripped, doesn't look for the open man and stalls the team out. Jefferson is putting up better numbers now too concidently with Manu running the point.

[J_Paco]

Wow, some of the opinions in this thread are completely asinine. Why would people reallly want to make Parker a 6th man or a SG, when he's been the most consistent player-maker on this team throughout his career (he averaged a career-high 6.9 APG last season while being the #1 offensive threat)? Say what you will about Parker's court-vision and passing skills, but he's always been better than Manu at making the safe pass and creating for others. He's going through the toughest season of his career, after coming off of a superb '09 season, due in large part to injuries. I've been just a disappointed in his overall play this year, but we've seen him play at an incredible levels before. So, diminishing his role to back-up for Hill, especially when Hill doesn't represent the vaunted "pure pass-first" PG that the haters clamor for, doesn't make sense when Parker is superior in ever aspect of the game.

Parker was supposed to continue his evolution into the #1 scoring option prior to the season, but injuries changed the team's plans. Whatever happens positively the rest of the season is gravy, and shouldn't reflect on Parker, Timmy or Manu, IMO. If the cast returns virtually intact next season, Pop should still go ahead with his plans for Tony. People need to realize that Duncan, Parker and Ginobili co-existed on this team prior to any of these current players playing here, so they should be adjusting to the Big 3, not the Big adjusting to them.


Spurs are definately better with Manu running point. He's unselfish, makes the passes, penetrates, scores. Parker is dribble into the paint, put it up get ball stripped, doesn't look for the open man and stalls the team out. Jefferson is putting up better numbers now too concidently with Manu running the point.

Please, that's while using a very small sample-size and against weak-mediocre opponents. And, Hill has been sharing the PG duties with Manu, and we all saw how Brooks lit Hill up a couple weeks ago. A player that Tony, when healthy, usually destroys when his matched up against him.

Also, Tony has always been good at picking his spots. Sometimes to the detriment of the team, when he's hot early, cool's off because his teammates throw-up bricks off his passes, then he stops penetrating and attacking the paint.

[Manu-of-steel]

I'm a Manu fan, but i also like TP. I don't think TP is a weak defender, maybe only this season because he's still hurting. The big 3 have their own strengths and weaknesses, but they complement each other to give the spurs their strength.

[Ginobilly]

Wow, some of the opinions in this thread are completely asinine. Why would people reallly want to make Parker a 6th man or a SG, when he's been the most consistent player-maker on this team throughout his career (he averaged a career-high 6.9 APG last season while being the #1 offensive threat)? Say what you will about Parker's court-vision and passing skills, but he's always been better than Manu at making the safe pass and creating for others. He's going through the toughest season of his career, after coming off of a superb '09 season, due in large part to injuries. I've been just a disappointed in his overall play this year, but we've seen him play at an incredible levels before. So, diminishing his role to back-up for Hill, especially when Hill doesn't represent the vaunted "pure pass-first" PG that the haters clamor for, doesn't make sense when Parker is superior in ever aspect of the game.

Parker was supposed to continue his evolution into the #1 scoring option prior to the season, but injuries changed the team's plans. Whatever happens positively the rest of the season is gravy, and shouldn't reflect on Parker, Timmy or Manu, IMO. If the cast returns virtually intact next season, Pop should still go ahead with his plans for Tony. People need to realize that Duncan, Parker and Ginobili co-existed on this team prior to any of these current players playing here, so they should be adjusting to the Big 3, not the Big adjusting to them.



Please, that's while using a very small sample-size and against weak-mediocre opponents. And, Hill has been sharing the PG duties with Manu, and we all saw how Brooks lit Hill up a couple weeks ago. A player that Tony, when healthy, usually destroys when his matched up against him.

Also, Tony has always been good at picking his spots. Sometimes to the detriment of the team, when he's hot early, cool's off because his teammates throw-up bricks off his passes, then he stops penetrating and attacking the paint.

Times change brah. We are no longer speaking of 2003-2007, the years of the Spurs dynasty. The two man game between Parker and Duncan doesn't work as efficiently as it used to, due to injuries and Duncan getting older. Before we needed TP to score at will because nobody outside of the big 3 could score if their life depended on it. The team was built that way, and it played up to Parker's strength, which is putting pressure on the defense by penetrating, score or dish. Now, 2010, we have players who could score in a variety of ways and with more diverse skill-sets. We need the 2010 on onwards Parker to be a facilitator and play defense. Nothing more, nothing less! I rather go out and experiment with new offensive and defensive schemes, rather than the Spurs 2 man dominated offense that hasn't worked consistently in the playoffs for like 3 years now.(It seems like the the Spurs 2 man game = the Spurs 4 down of the late 90's/early 2000's?) How do you'll know Parker off the bench will not work??? It has never been tried. Stranger things have happened in the NBA!

[xapatan2]

Parker obviously needs to slow down and wait for his teammates to catch up with him on fast breaks so he can pass to them.

Threads like this would be less annoying if Manu had been treated the same way when he was injured.

THIS !

The truth !

Thanks for that

Xap'

[anakha]

We need the 2010 on onwards Parker to be a facilitator and play defense. Nothing more, nothing less!

Using that logic, you might as well trade him for Steve Blake. Just saying.

[Parker2112]

Using that logic, you might as well trade him for Steve Blake. Just saying.

We have guys making tens of millions who cant find a foothold when Tony is on the floor. Granted, it's by Pop's design, and Tony is running it the way Pop would have it run, but Tony could facilitate more without being a Steve Blake. It doesnt have to be all or nothing.

Besides that, Hill is scoring, facilitating and defending his ass off for a second year NBA player. Why can't Tony adjust, or be asked to adjust?

It wasnt above David Robinson to adjust when it benefited the team, but according to many on this board for Tony it would be out of the question.

IMHO, with the current personnel, Tony's twenty points is costing Jefferson a solid ten points, Dice probably five, Hill probably 5-8,, but the bigger picture says it costs us chemistry and cohesion, because these guys have no place in the offense with Tony unless they can hit a three pointer. That will cause pain and suffering in the playoffs. And that's not Tony's problem either...Pop can work out these bugs.

Hopefully the inspired heart-filled play of late will open his eyes to the fact that his system is not suited to this roster. We no longer have clutch three point shooters to feed off Tony. We've got a washed out Mason, an aimless RJ, an untrustworthy Bogans, a Bonner who is more famine than feast, etc.

[anakha]

words


I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that having Parker completely abandon one of his greatest strengths brings no benefit to Parker nor the Spurs.

Should he come off the bench? Maybe. Should he start alongside Manu and RJ? Maybe. But saying that such and such should be the only role he plays is very myopic.

[DPG21920]

That's why I didn't bother arguing with rockyroads. Parker has never matched up with typical PG's that well...but he usually does match up with smaller 2 guards or bigger pg's...it's weird because you would think Parker would do better in speed on speed matchups but he actually does better against guys that attempt to muscle him.

Tony is a lot stronger and tougher than people give him credit for, mentally and physically...

And the fact that people want to throw Tony under the bus now that's he's a little beat up after hitting the floor and taking more punishment in the paint than any PG in the league the last 10 years is pretty weak.

Tony is very capable defender and I'd say for most of his career he's been the second best perimeter defender on the team after Bowen....

Keep in mind, the Spurs had one of the great defensive runs in NBA history up until about 2 years ago and Parker was a huge reason for that. He matches up with bigger stronger guards well and he sticks to the system...add all that to the fact that he pulled of the freak accomplishment of leading the NBA in points in the paint and is fearless about taking it to the hoop...and he's an awesome player and there is no way in hell we will get anyone better than he is.

He and Manu are different types of players, yes Manu does a better job of making other players better, but Tony Parker is one of the most dominant matchups in the league on an indivual level. The media would never shut about Tony if he played for a big market team. He'd be the most hyped point guard in the league if he played in NY or LA.

Very good post.


Spurs are definately better with Manu running point. He's unselfish, makes the passes, penetrates, scores. Parker is dribble into the paint, put it up get ball stripped, doesn't look for the open man and stalls the team out. Jefferson is putting up better numbers now too concidently with Manu running the point.

Very bad post.

[HarlemHeat37]

:rollin

[Brazil]

:rollin

+1 really a very nice and accurate thread !

[Parker2112]

:rollin


+1 really a very nice and accurate thread !

What the fuck does this mean Harlem? Reveling on the night of a Spurs loss?

Okay, I'll go with that, but I'm not sure you two realize what that says about you both. Lost a lot of respect for you two "fans."

First, Jefferson had a GREAT game. If Tim had shown up, we were completely competitive with arguably the best team in the league. And if Tony was in the game at any point/in any capacity, we are in a damn good position to win.

Timmy is hurt. His interior D is nonexistent. His offense is sputtering. And while you two cheer our loss so you can revel on this thread, that fact dooms us more than anything that's happened all season. And regardless what anyone says, we can do damage in the playoffs with a healthy Duncan and Gino.