Were Spurs Too Deep?

[PeterBurns]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

Now without Parker, team gels better. Better tighter rotations.
This is going to get interesting when Parker is ready to play, does Pop pull a Jameer Nelson.

[EricB]

I'd agree, but Parker is a different equation all together.

[honestfool84]

Parker is extremely pertinent to the success of this team in the post season.

[DPG21920]

Parker is way better than Jameer and he plays the second he can.

[PeterBurns]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years

[exstatic]

Finley was like a lamprey, sucking the life out of the Spurs fish.

[PeterBurns]

Parker is way better than Jameer and he plays the second he can.

Agreed, as he should. Just hope this time together with the short bench tightens defensive rotations and Pop finalizes a lineup

[DPG21920]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years

As long is it is not within the next 2, I am fine.

[DPG21920]

I don't want it to go down that way, but if it makes sense, I understand.

[Brazil]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years

You should.

It is one thing to think that the spurs should take another direction it's another to not be sad to see an important piece of a championship team leaving.

[exstatic]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years


As long is it is not within the next 2, I am fine.

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

[ducks]

yeah spurs play bottom feeders
ofcourse they look good
duncan looks bored hopefully or he trully sucks

[ducks]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

dwill is not a leader
parker is a better leader then that
dwill is a better passer though

[OrEmuN]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

If Deron is sufficiently pissed off and Utah is willing to trade, I think we will be more than happy to do it. Deron is like the 2nd best PG in the NBA at the moment.

As for the John Wall draft, is that due to Utah owning the Knick's pick ?

[DPG21920]

I don't want TP gone at all, but if things go south after Duncan and it makes sense for both parties, I understand.

But unless it is a no brainer, no way he moves until Duncan is gone.

[Johnny RIngo]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

They can get better value for DWill than Parker.

[whottt]

I myself am thoroughly amazed we have won a game since Finley left.

I didn't think this team could win without Findog's clutchness...they never did before.

I mean, did you guys not see that performance against Denver in game 5 of the 07 playoffs?

Never thought we'd win a game without Michael "win" Finley, much less go 7-1 without him.

[exstatic]

They can get better value for DWill than Parker.

Maybe, maybe not. Can they get another vet All Star PG to mentor Wall for one year and roll off, saving them like $30+M?

[SCdac]

Too deep overnight was the problem. The fact that Pop had to simplify the training camp process says everything about how deep and new-look we became. Too many players can hurt, especially when SG's in Mason and Finley probably want at least 20 MPG...

PS. we NEED Parker to win a championship, no doubt about it.

[Spursfan092120]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years

[DPG21920]

I will say that the Spurs were so deep. So deep they put that ass to sleep.

[benefactor]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.
I had a tent between my legs by the time I got through reading this.

[benefactor]

I will say that the Spurs were so deep. So deep they put that ass to sleep.
Best Ice Cube album...and probably a top 5 all time rap album.

[nkdlunch]

OMG.

No SPurs were not too deep. IMO there is no such thing as "too" deep.

Yeah they are the deepest team in the league (they have #1 bench in all statistics) but even a deep team that doesn't gel, won't be a contender.

Finally they are gelling. And they still could use Theo vs. Lakers and Finley for a few clutch playoff shots.

so again, no. There is no such thing as "too" deep

[pjjrfan]

OMG.

No SPurs were not too deep. IMO there is no such thing as "too" deep.

Yeah they are the deepest team in the league (they have #1 bench in all statistics) but even a deep team that doesn't gel, won't be a contender.

Finally they are gelling. And they still could use Theo vs. Lakers and Finley for a few clutch playoff shots.

so again, no. There is no such thing as "too" deep
Agree!

[MarHill]

I don't want TP gone at all, but if things go south after Duncan and it makes sense for both parties, I understand.

But unless it is a no brainer, no way he moves until Duncan is gone.

I agree DPG21920.

I don't get all this TP hatred.

This guy has done everything the Spurs asked of him. The Spurs realized his greatest strength was not being a Steve Nash or Jason Kidd type PG. But a scoring PG...who has speed and quickness as an asset.

Also, he has develop a decent jump shot and hasn't caused trouble.

I just don't get it.

It seems like the spoiled Spurs fans have a Lexus and is a great car....but still wants that BMW that they see from a distance.

The grass isn't always greener with a new girl.

Unbeliveable!!

TP needs to stay as long as TD and Manu are still here. He is an important part of the Big 3.

[MaNu4Tres]

Too deep? No

Playing too many players? Yes

[exstatic]

I agree DPG21920.

I don't get all this TP hatred.

This guy has done everything the Spurs asked of him. The Spurs realized his greatest strength was not being a Steve Nash or Jason Kidd type PG. But a scoring PG...who has speed and quickness as an asset.

Also, he has develop a decent jump shot and hasn't caused trouble.

I just don't get it.

It seems like the spoiled Spurs fans have a Lexus and is a great car....but still wants that BMW that they see from a distance.

The grass isn't always greener with a new girl.

Unbeliveable!!

TP needs to stay as long as TD and Manu are still here. He is an important part of the Big 3.

I don't hate Tony. I just think it may be time for a true play maker. When we had the versatile vets like Horry and Bowen, Tony could get away with just driving and either scoring or kicking out to a clutch shooter. We don't have those players or premier shooters any more, and we need someone who can REALLY RUN a half court offense. Tony isn't that person. He's just shown the complete inability to mesh with too many players who could REALLY help us like Blair and RJeff. In a way, it's almost tragic just watching how well a play maker like Manu can run this offense and find not only spot up shooters, but people on back cuts or dives down the lane, things Tony is pretty much blind to.

[JustinJDW]

The Spurs are playing better for three simple reasons.

#1. We are playing better Defense. This is because Parker is out, Finley is gone and Bonner is playing less minutes. This is also true because Hill and Manu are playing a lot of minutes and they are both obviously excellent defenders.

#2. Our Offense has more varied now that Parker isn't playing and taking a lot of shots. Yes, it hurts to say this, but Parker can sometimes kill the offense. Not all the time of course, but sometimes. When Parker's shot is hitting, he always has a hard time getting other players involved other than Timmy. HE IS A SCORING PG, NOT A PASS FIRST PG. This isn't some "Parker Hater" comment, this is just reality.

#3. We are playing RJ signifficant minutes next to Manu and we are isolating him and letting him do his thing. This again, makes our Offense more varied and makes it harder to stop the Spurs from scoring points.

In my opinion, those are the three main reasons.

[ploto]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

Now without Parker, team gels better. Better tighter rotations.

Or could it be that the opponents suck?

[ploto]

...is also true because Hill and Manu are playing a lot of minutes and they are both obviously excellent defenders.

George Hill is the most overrated defender by Spurs fans.

[DPG21920]

Or could it be that the opponents suck?

It's not like the are beating the Raptors. Miami and the Suns are good teams.

[ploto]

It's not like the are beating the Raptors. Miami and the Suns are good teams.
Miami and Toronto have about the same record. :lol

Parker played in the win over the Suns. He was a team best +15. That game is a poor choice to prove the team is better without Parker.

[whottt]

Finley for a few clutch playoff shots.


I remember this one...2007, Spurs were only up 3-1 on their own home court against a Denver team that had made it out of the first round as recently as 1993, including 3 appearances in the first round in previous years....nail biting knee quaking situation...a situation which would make even the ballsiest of competitors start looking for a place to hide.

But not Mike Finley...when it was time to separate the men from the boys, Michael Finley stood all alone as

THE
MAN


Spurs ended up squeaking out a 15 point win thanks to Finley's incredibly clutch play.

I just don't see us replacing that sort of stuff with anyone on this current roster.


I mean who in the hell besides Michael Finley is capable of stepping up at home in a series his team leads 3-1 against a team that been bounced in the first round the previous 2 years and hadn't won a playoff series in a decade or so?

No one...no one cept Michael Finley that is.

[HarlemHeat37]

The Spurs are playing better for three simple reasons.

#1. We are playing better Defense. This is because Parker is out, Finley is gone and Bonner is playing less minutes. This is also true because Hill and Manu are playing a lot of minutes and they are both obviously excellent defenders.

#2. Our Offense has more varied now that Parker isn't playing and taking a lot of shots. Yes, it hurts to say this, but Parker can sometimes kill the offense. Not all the time of course, but sometimes. When Parker's shot is hitting, he always has a hard time getting other players involved other than Timmy. HE IS A SCORING PG, NOT A PASS FIRST PG. This isn't some "Parker Hater" comment, this is just reality.

#3. We are playing RJ signifficant minutes next to Manu and we are isolating him and letting him do his thing. This again, makes our Offense more varied and makes it harder to stop the Spurs from scoring points.

In my opinion, those are the three main reasons.

#1- Hill's defense has been TERRIBLE as a starter..I'm not the only one that thinks this, it has been voiced by many people here..the D has been better because the opponents were poor..

#2- See: opponents..

#3- RJ hasn't really scored much in iso situations in this stretch..also, see: poor opponents..

[ElNono]

Too deep is when you have a lot of players playing great and it's hard to settle on a rotation because of that. No such thing for the Spurs this season.
We've just been terribly inconsistent all season long, even now. The difference now is that the new guys are finally figuring out what their role is, and most importantly Manu has found his rhythm and some guys are elevating their games alongside him (like Hill).
But we still have sore spots. Mason and Blair were great for a stretch early on, and now they're stinking up the joint. Bogans and Bonner will give you a great game and then a subpar game. We still have 18 games to keep on working on that consistency...

[Sean Cagney]

Best Ice Cube album...and probably a top 5 all time rap album.

HAHA yeah, I loved the Predator.

[Sean Cagney]

Too deep? No

Playing too many players? Yes

^^^^^^^^^^^ This.

[DPG21920]

Miami and Toronto have about the same record. :lol

Parker played in the win over the Suns. He was a team best +15. That game is a poor choice to prove the team is better without Parker.

I don't think the team is better w/o , I think you were wrong in saying they only beat bad teams.

Wade > Raptors.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Obstructed_View:


it seems like we are getting what you called for a month or so ago. Getting Pop to stick to a rotation, and play those players 30+ minutes without exception. I realize you never meant for that rotation to be without Parker but we are definitely getting what you called for and the results speak for themselves. (even though we are playing scrub teams)

I can definitely see the lineup consistency leading to cohesion and that leading to wins over winning teams.

[balli]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

Wrong. Keep dreaming... and, per usual ...

dwill is not a leader
parker is a better leader then that
retard.

[exstatic]

Wrong. Keep dreaming...


Then he dropped the big bomb,when he was asked if the trade altered his view of staying in Utah over the long haul: "That's why I [only] signed a three-year deal."

They salary dumped Brewer. They salary dumped Eric Maynor. Boozer is going to walk. That's an awful lot of talent going out the door with nothing coming back in.

[Old School 44]

I won't say we were too deep. Pop just needed to settle with his rotations. With injury to Parker, Finley gone, Mason in the dog house, I think it forced his hand. Also, with these guys not playing (or in Mason's case, playing very little), it also takes the pressure off the players who are getting time. They don't have to worry as much about making mistakes since Pop is less likely to pull them, since there's really not many guys on the bench he trust to sub.

[balli]

They salary dumped Brewer. They salary dumped Eric Maynor. Boozer is going to walk. That's an awful lot of talent going out the door with nothing coming back in.

Except that lottery pick you alluded to.

And since you're so sure that Deron is out for his friends first, I can guarantee you he'd rather pass the ball to Millsap than that soft chump Boozer who Deron knows full well is only playing well because he's in a contract year. In other words, Deron fucking hated Boozer last year, all through the playoffs and all through last summer. More or less advocated losing him. I doubt one regular season has changed his mind.

And yeah, good job digging up a quote that Deron rattled off about 10 hours after they traded away a good friend of his. I doubt that two years from now that Ronnie Brewer is going to factor into Deron's decision one iota, or that there's even a remote possibility, whatsoever, he holds it against The Jazz until then. Especially considering the fact that we're not substantially worse with Matthews (who by the way just scored 29 points and is about as good a defender as you'll find in a two guard). Deron's a smart dude, don't confuse his immediate emotion with his ability to understand the salary cap.

And finally- ooooooooooh- Eric Maynor, I'm sure Deron's walking over that guy.

[silverblackfan]

I agree DPG21920.

I don't get all this TP hatred.

This guy has done everything the Spurs asked of him. The Spurs realized his greatest strength was not being a Steve Nash or Jason Kidd type PG. But a scoring PG...who has speed and quickness as an asset.

Also, he has develop a decent jump shot and hasn't caused trouble.

I just don't get it.

It seems like the spoiled Spurs fans have a Lexus and is a great car....but still wants that BMW that they see from a distance.

The grass isn't always greener with a new girl.

Unbeliveable!!

TP needs to stay as long as TD and Manu are still here. He is an important part of the Big 3.

Agreed. Tony has done nothing but exceed expectations and continue to improve. He does what he does, and does it well. We have Manu and Hill if we need more assists, but sometimes we need to make the other team cry about how much the Spurs point guard is living in the paint!

[TD 21]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

Now without Parker, team gels better. Better tighter rotations.
This is going to get interesting when Parker is ready to play, does Pop pull a Jameer Nelson.

They were. Not necessarily overloaded with high quality players, but they had twelve guys who expected to play. There's a difference between expecting to and wanting to. I honestly think all twelve of them thought that they'd, if not for the entire season, eventually be in the rotation down the stretch and in the playoffs. You can't have that on a team. What it lead to was Pop playing mad scientist with the rotation way too much. Essentially, the first fifty games were an extended training camp. How can an ounce of chemistry or continuity be forged while doing that? It can't.

Now, things are clear. When Parker is healthy, we know the nine man playoff rotation, we know primarily who will play with who, approximately how many minutes each player is likely to see, etc. The team is better off for it.

If this team is legitimately peaking, then if Parker returns and is, say, 75% of what we're used to seeing (I agree with timvp, he's the least reliant on rhythm of the big three), this team could make some noise in the playoffs. If Martin is a no-go or greatly diminished, then the already thin on the front line Nuggets instantly become somewhat vulnerable. As for the rest of the teams in the 3-7 range, they could realistically all beat each other in a series. Even the almighty Mavs, I don't think they're exempt from this group. They may be at the head of it, but they're in it.

[Stringer_Bell]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

lol, who did Ratliff take minutes away from?

[jjktkk]

Maybe Parker's latest injury is a blessing in disguise. The Spurs are playing well without Parker, and some folks on here worry that when Parker comes back, he could disrupt the rhythm and chemistry the Spurs have built up with their recent winning streak. That could happen, but I don't think Parker and Pop will allow that to happen. If anything when Parker comes back for the playoffs, Parker's ability to get into the paint and score will add another element to the offense as well as improve the Spurs fastbreak. It might take Parker a couple games to get back into playing shape, but hopefully he will be ready to roll for the playoffs. The Spurs are playing well without him, but they need Parker if they want to make a run in the playoffs IMO.

[z0sa]

How can you be too deep when the Coach doesn't test out the depth whatsoever, and that which he does test and pass by common standards, still is deemed a failure?

Ian, Ratliff, Bogans, and Hairston's time for fighting for minutes was EARLY in the season. Not now. Now it just seems like Pop is less averse to the idea of losing since we've made no noise all season and so he'll play the "depth".

[ploto]

I think you were wrong in saying they only beat bad teams.

Since Parker has been out. The OP claims the team gels better without Parker, so I pointed out that the victories have been over poor teams. The proof will be some victories over top teams without Parker.

[polandprzem]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

Now without Parker, team gels better. Better tighter rotations.
This is going to get interesting when Parker is ready to play, does Pop pull a Jameer Nelson.

Pop would set his rotation like it is now.
One exeption would probably be fin<->malik minutes


parker is too much important for our ofense to even say the spurs are better without him

[ManuTastic]

What it lead to was Pop playing mad scientist with the rotation way too much. Essentially, the first fifty games were an extended training camp.

This is how I see it too. Great post!

[Dex]

The Spurs have played well in Parker's absence, but that should be a credit to the team, not a knock against Parker.

Still, all of these wins have still come against weak competition. Could be nothing more than fool's gold.

As constructed, this team isn't going anywhere in the playoffs unless it's with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili leading the way.

[VBM]

Big games coming up = @ Orlando, @OKC, Lakers, Cleveland, @ Boston.

If we win 3 out of 5, then I'll truly buy into this whole gelling argument. That said, the Spurs are doing what they're supposed to do, and that beat up on the bad teams this month...

[in2deep]

what? Rattliff was not playing any minutes anyway, and neither was Finley, that's why he was bitching in the first place.

I think it was a really stupid move to get rid of Rattlif.

[dbestpro]

I have to believe that there are at least 4-5 games (maybe more) we could have and should have won if Pop had not gone small and allowed Theo to contribute.

[E-RockWill]

Big games coming up = @ Orlando, @OKC, Lakers, Cleveland, @ Boston.

If we win 3 out of 5, then I'll truly buy into this whole gelling argument. That said, the Spurs are doing what they're supposed to do, and that beat up on the bad teams this month...

This is it exactly.

[JR3]

As much as I like Parker, I wouldn't cry myself to tears if this team found another direction in the next few years

I agree. Spurs with jefferson are better with a point gaurd that can distribute and score and defend.. not just a scorer.

[Chomag]

Meh, Spurs have been playing some pretty crappy teams latley so I think it might be to ealy to judge this.

[NFGIII]

The dream I have every night is this:

DWill is fuckiing pissed at Utah, and has all but said he's leaving when his contract is up because they salary dumped his boy Ronnie Brewer to the Grizz. Utah wins the lottery. They draft John Wall, but rather than have a long term issue, they swap an unhappy DWill to us for Parker as a one year mentor for Wall. They save two years of high salary and avoid a conflict while still drafting the best available player.

That would be something. Though I do like TP when he loses that explosive first step and blinding speed - and he will it's just a matter of time - then he is an average PG at best. Little if any drives into the paint due to his now lacking the speed he once had and he dosen't have a 3 point shot. And this year his midrange J has been suspect though this may be due more to injury and fatigue than it actually going south. On the other hand Dwill is a mcuh better passer and can score adequately to replace TP's share. And if Malik/Hill/Blair continue thier development then a pass first PG is more of a nessicity than a score first one.IMHO





dwill is not a leader
parker is a better leader then that
dwill is a better passer though

Don't really know if he isn't up to being the leader TP has been but as stated above - once TP loses his speed then it's game over for his career. He's just another average PG after that since he never developed his court vision and passing skills like a Nash, Paul and Dwill have.


I don't hate Tony. I just think it may be time for a true play maker. When we had the versatile vets like Horry and Bowen, Tony could get away with just driving and either scoring or kicking out to a clutch shooter. We don't have those players or premier shooters any more, and we need someone who can REALLY RUN a half court offense. Tony isn't that person. He's just shown the complete inability to mesh with too many players who could REALLY help us like Blair and RJeff. In a way, it's almost tragic just watching how well a play maker like Manu can run this offense and find not only spot up shooters, but people on back cuts or dives down the lane, things Tony is pretty much blind to.

I had similar thoughts, too. The makeup of this team is changing and we have more players needing to get the ball on the move rather than spot up shooters or ones that can create their shots from a standstill - Kobe/Lebron/Manu...etc. Would it be better for the Spurs to use a priceton type of offensive scheme due to this team's makeup?

Just wondering.

[

[Obstructed_View]

Lose Ratliff, Lose Finley, neither very big role players this year, but guys that took minutes away.

Now without Parker, team gels better. Better tighter rotations.
This is going to get interesting when Parker is ready to play, does Pop pull a Jameer Nelson.

Fear is an excellent motivator. Funny how fear seems to make players try harder on both ends and makes coaches start their best players and play guys at their proper position. Funny how those two things translate into wins when you have plenty of talent.