is manu a hof

[tothrowed]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted

[TimmehC]

All the international stuff that he's done would be enough to put him in, but his NBA career wouldn't quite be worthy of it.

[JamStone]

I think the international resume gives him a very good shot but it's still probably debatable. I think the Hall would do well to include him, as well as a guy like Vlade Divac.

[MoSpur]

I would have to say yes. He's won NBA championships and done great things for his country in Argentina. If he wins one more, than its a no brainer to me.

[DxB]

All the international stuff that he's done would be enough to put him in, but his NBA career wouldn't quite be worthy of it.

Thats what I dont get though... If guys like Kevin Mchale are HoF's.. so shud Manu!

[smeagol]

Yes but not because he is "better than Tim and Tony" (which in the case oif Timmy, he isn't)

[Kool Bob Love]

Of course he is....

[tothrowed]

oh yea i didn't even mention all the big and highlight plays manu has made and whats hes done against the top players in the nba like d-wade and durant

[Mel_13]

Tim is an all-time great and will go into the HOF as soon as he is eligible.

Tony Parker's NBA career resume will be much better than Manu's NBA career resume.

Manu's total body of work make him a lock for the HOF.

[rjv]

claro que si.

[ElNono]

Here's to hoping they all 3 make it. :toast

[JamStone]

Thats what I dont get though... If guys like Kevin Mchale are HoF's.. so shud Manu!

Not a good example to prove your argument.

[Charles Sappa]

Definitely. In 2005 he deserved the MVP of the Finals . No question. He Scored 29 points against Duncan and "The Dream Team" in 2004.

[Frenzy]

good question. I'd say yes. I just don't think the media gives the guy enough spotlight/credit.

[tothrowed]

tim is a lock tony should get in do yall think it hurts or helps manu that he comes off the bench or does it not matter cuz he can be known as one of the best 6'th man

[Bukefal]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted

He is good, he was great. But better than Tim and Tony? Are you serious? :lmao

[bigfan]

Since its the Basketball HoF and not the NBA HoF I think he has a better shot.

[Charles Sappa]

I just don't think the media gives the guy enough spotlight/credit.

Because it comes from a country with no tradition in basketball. Besides, he had many injuries in his career.

With health may prove to be a top-level player. If he wins the WC will not have equal.

[tothrowed]

He is good, he was great. But better than Tim and Tony? Are you serious? :lmao
yes he is better than tim and tony maybe not stat wise but if you put their highlights up against each other its a no doubt manu > tim and tony

[Mel_13]

tim is a lock tony should get in do yall think it hurts or helps manu that he comes off the bench or does it not matter cuz he can be known as one of the best 6'th man

Manu would not get into an NBA HOF. He will get into the Basketball HOF based on the sum total of his NBA career, Italian League and Euroleague career, and most importantly his career with Argentina's National Team.

[JamStone]

tim is a lock tony should get in do yall think it hurts or helps manu that he comes off the bench or does it not matter cuz he can be known as one of the best 6'th man

I think it's still very much uncertain that Tony gets in. He's nowhere near a lock. And I don't think it's even a 50/50 shot yet either. He has to have quite a few more great seasons to get in the conversation. You can't just assume he'll have another 5-6 years similar to last season and that's probably what it will take.

[Dex]

Definitely. Manu has one of the most impressive international basketball resumes of all time. If the Basketball HoF doesn't consider that as criteria, then it should change its name to the NBA/NCAA Hall of Fame.

[sonic21]

tony needs a few allstar seasons to be HOF imo.

Manu will be a HOF.

[JamStone]

Quick, off the top of your head without reviewing his career, do you think Toni Kukoc belongs in the HOF?

[Dex]

Quick, off the top of your head without reviewing his career, do you think Toni Kukoc belongs in the HOF?

Off the top of my head, I'd say :lmao but I have the feeling this is a trick question.

[Mel_13]

Quick, off the top of your head without reviewing his career, do you think Toni Kukoc belongs in the HOF?

Certainly not based on his NBA career, but without research I have no idea what he did in Europe or for his NT.

[smeagol]

Manu has three rings. He was instrumental in two of those (shoul've gotten the finals MVP in 05). He has a 6th man award, one trip to the ASG and one 3rd team all NBA.

That is a pretty good NBA resume.

Add his international accomplishments and he is a HOF lock.

[DxB]

Not a good example to prove your argument.

Well yea, 3 rings, no MVPs or Finals MVP's (altho Manu is as close as u can get to that in 2005).

They were both considered "second options" to Timmy and Bird, but at least we know from watching the games that Manu is more important (or has more claim on) the rings he's won than fuckin Kevin McHale... who IMO a great player but incredibly overrated and owed a LOT more to the presence of Larry Bird then Manu does to the presence of Timmy (which im not understating in general, just in comparison).

Manu has also brought his own style of play to the NBA, which a lot of players cant say theyve done. Even greats like Kobe for example have openly acknowleedged that they've taken all their moves from the players before them and put it all together... Manu on the other hand is almost impossible to replace largely due to his unique style of play and skill set.

So basically, if a guy like Kevin Mchale (or even Robert Parish) can get into the Hall, Manu's NBA career shud be just about enough to see him thru as well! If you add in the Intl career its a lock!

[JamStone]

Kukoc's international career:

3x Euroleage Final Four MVP
1990 FIBA World Championship MVP
5x Eurosar Player of the Year
4x Mr. Europa Player of the Year
1991 Eoropean Championship MVP
2x Olympic Silver medalist
World Championship Gold medalist
2x Euro Championship Gold medalist

And of course 3x NBA champ and 6th man of the year winner

[JamStone]

McHale was a 7 time all star and 6 time all NBA defender.


Well yea, 3 rings, no MVPs or Finals MVP's (altho Manu is as close as u can get to that in 2005).

They were both considered "second options" to Timmy and Bird, but at least we know from watching the games that Manu is more important (or has more claim on) the rings he's won than fuckin Kevin McHale... who IMO a great player but incredibly overrated and owed a LOT more to the presence of Larry Bird then Manu does to the presence of Timmy (which im not understating in general, just in comparison).

Manu has also brought his own style of play to the NBA, which a lot of players cant say theyve done. Even greats like Kobe for example have openly acknowleedged that they've taken all their moves from the players before them and put it all together... Manu on the other hand is almost impossible to replace largely due to his unique style of play and skill set.

So basically, if a guy like Kevin Mchale (or even Robert Parish) can get into the Hall, Manu's NBA career shud be just about enough to see him thru as well! If you add in the Intl career its a lock!

[Dex]

Kukoc's international career:

3x Euroleage Final Four MVP
1990 FIBA World Championship MVP
5x Eurosar Player of the Year
4x Mr. Europa Player of the Year
1991 Eoropean Championship MVP
2x Olympic Silver medalist
World Championship Gold medalist
2x Euro Championship Gold medalist

And of course 3x NBA champ and 6th man of the year winner

Damn. Add an Olympic Gold to that, and he's right on pace with Manu.

[Cane]

It depends how strong of a pull the international guys at the HOF committee have but Manu has had a pretty special career. He's part of the handful that has won a Euroleague title, an NBA championship, and an Olympic gold medal; however Ginobili has been the MVP or in the candidacy thereof on all those teams.

It'd be great to see him in but by the time he's on a ballot...the HOF committee could have pretty big changes in its composition and voting.

[Mixability]

Even without the international accolades, Manu has an NBA resume that people would kill for!

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

http://i39.tinypic.com/6dzqef.gif
i just wanna mother fucking win

[FromWayDowntown]

I think it's still very much uncertain that Tony gets in. He's nowhere near a lock. And I don't think it's even a 50/50 shot yet either. He has to have quite a few more great seasons to get in the conversation. You can't just assume he'll have another 5-6 years similar to last season and that's probably what it will take.

This I absolutely agree with.

If you look at the players who've been inducted into the Hall of Fame based upon their NBA accomplishments, you've really got to be a great among greats to make the cut. I counted a few years ago and there were shockingly few players who were: (a) in the Hall of Fame based upon their NBA accomplishments (this excludes players like Bill Bradley, who is in mostly because he was a great collegiate player); and (b) not on the Top 50 list. I mean, the number was less than 50 certainly and it might have been less than 30. It's an extremely selective honor -- most 3-time All-Stars and 1-time All-NBA players don't get there.

Tony Parker, at this point of his career, is going to sink or swim in Springfield based on what he's done in the NBA.

Manu Ginobili, by contrast, is a player whose international resume is almost without parallel among non-Americans, and whose NBA resume is quite solid. I think the biggest bonus in Manu's favor is that his team had sustaining success in big international tournaments and he was obviously the best player on those teams. His 2004 Argentina team remains the only Olympic gold medalist in the pro era that wasn't from the USA and followed that up with a bronze in Beijing. His teams played well at the world championships in both 2002 (2nd) and 2006 (4th). So, over the course of 4 major international tournaments, the Argentines finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Manu made the All-Tournament team at each of the World Championships. And, apparently, Manu was named MVP of the 2004 Olympic tournament (though I don't see that there is traditionally an MVP award given in Olympic tournaments). So, Manu is the clear driving force of a team that had sustained success in the biggest international tournaments. I don't think anyone disputes any of that.

His accomplishments playing in the Euro leagues before his move to the NBA are also significant and relevant.

(Edit: I see the point in the Kukoc comparison, though I might distinguish Manu from Kukoc inasmuch as Manu made his international resume during the Dream Team era and Kukoc really didn't. But I think the point is well-taken; much like comparing Robert Horry to Michael Cooper in terms of Hall of Fame credentials).

Manu is a different case than Parker, though, because Parker doesn't have that extra dimension to his career. Manu and Parker are relatively close as NBA players. In my estimation, Parker has been the better player in the NBA and will, at the end of their careers, have been a better NBA player. But neither is likely to get in on an NBA resume alone.

[honestfool84]

yes, Manu is a hoss.

[Mel_13]

Kukoc's international career:

3x Euroleage Final Four MVP
1990 FIBA World Championship MVP
5x Eurosar Player of the Year
4x Mr. Europa Player of the Year
1991 Eoropean Championship MVP
2x Olympic Silver medalist
World Championship Gold medalist
2x Euro Championship Gold medalist

And of course 3x NBA champ and 6th man of the year winner

Impressive. I'd still rate Manu's overall body of work as superior, but its closer than I would have thought. Manu's NT and NBA peaks were certainly much higher than Tony's, as Manu's 2004 Olympics and 2005 NBA Finals trump the 1990 WC and whichever NBA championship run was Tony's best.

[TMTTRIO]

Even without the international accolades, Manu has an NBA resume that people would kill for!

I'm not sure about that. Other than the rings that he won along with Tim and Tony he doesn't have a lot of personal achievements. He's only made an All Star appearance once. Yes he's won 6MOY award but that's not really saying much. The biggest thing he's ever gotten is 3rd All NBA Team. There's a lot of guys who've had more impressive accomplishments in the NBA than Manu.

[SpurCharger]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted
I say He is Borderline, But Probably Not Good enough Numbers.... And In No Way Is he anywhere Close to Being Better then Tim Duncan..... Maybe Tony But Not Tim.

[FromWayDowntown]

And In No Way Is he anywhere Close to Being Better then Tim Duncan.....

I think this should go without saying. Manu is not among the 10-15 best players in the history of the game; Tim Duncan is.

Manu may be better able right now to take over a game (I'm not saying he is better able to do that in 2010, just that there might be an argument for it), but that's a far cry from saying that Manu is or has been a better player than Tim Duncan.

[Mixability]

I'm not sure about that. Other than the rings that he won along with Tim and Tony he doesn't have a lot of personal achievements. He's only made an All Star appearance once. Yes he's won 6MOY award but that's not really saying much. The biggest thing he's ever gotten is 3rd All NBA Team. There's a lot of guys who've had more impressive accomplishments in the NBA than Manu.

Well I'm pretty sure there are a lot of guys that would want to even smell the finals, much less get 3 rings. I think Manu's "problem" is the the HOF is for personal accomplishments and he makes the team's accomplishments his focus.

[ElNono]

I think this should go without saying. Manu is not among the 10-15 best players in the history of the game; Tim Duncan is.

Manu may be better able right now to take over a game (I'm not saying he is better able to do that in 2010, just that there might be an argument for it), but that's a far cry from saying that Manu is or has been a better player than Tim Duncan.

No question about it. I also don't understand how Tim or Tony slip into a conversation about Manu's HoF chances...

[antgomez2009]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted


Come on too Throwed!!!!!! i know how that doja be getting yoU!

anyways, i always knew Manu was better then Tony, but i dont know about tim! at this point right now, he might be better, but you like everyone also takes Timmy for granted, like he grabs 10 boards, and scores 20 points every game and thats not good enough for most people! when the team is in need of Timmy, best believe he produces, especially in the playoffs!

TIM then Manu!!!
Tim and Manu both make it in the HOF!!! Ginobili has a sixth man award, a world champion, 3 titles! Ginobili was significant in those title runs, best believe he makes it! If Dirk makes it, Gino is locked!

I dont need no help my n****, i can do bad all my self! Z-ro!

[FromWayDowntown]

No question about it. I also don't understand how Tim or Tony slip into a conversation about Manu's HoF chances...

I agree that Tim Duncan's Hall of Fame chances (which are at 100%) have nothing to do with what will happen to Manu or Tony.

I can see that a comparison of Tony and Manu is appropriate, if only because their NBA resumes are fairly similar.

[romain.star]

* TD is obviously a lock since he is one of the top 10 player of all time

* Thanx to his International acheivements (Argentina + Bologna) Manu will probably make it too (i'd say 80%)

* Parker won't make it unless:
a - he has another 2 or 3 stellar NBA seasons
b - he carries France to the Olympic Final in London

(which is not totally impossible)

[TIMMYD!]

TD was going to be a lock the first year he came into the league.

Tony doesn't have much of a chance right now.

Manu does have a legitimate shot of making it if he stopped playing today.

[urunobili]

http://i39.tinypic.com/6dzqef.gif
i just wanna mother fucking win

:worthy:

[Agloco]

I think it's still very much uncertain that Tony gets in. He's nowhere near a lock. And I don't think it's even a 50/50 shot yet either. He has to have quite a few more great seasons to get in the conversation. You can't just assume he'll have another 5-6 years similar to last season and that's probably what it will take.

+1

If he hits 20k in points and 7000 assists, I can see him in the discussion. But you hit it on the head, that's gonna take about 4 more seasons of injury free basketball. I'm not sure if he can play much past 33 or 34 the way his body breaks down.

[Josepatches_]

I think this should go without saying. Manu is not among the 10-15 best players in the history of the game; Tim Duncan is.

Manu may be better able right now to take over a game (I'm not saying he is better able to do that in 2010, just that there might be an argument for it), but that's a far cry from saying that Manu is or has been a better player than Tim Duncan.

TD>>>>>Manu.

But TD is who will make Manu and TP a hof.Some players are hof because they were lucky to play alont the greatest players of all time.They had talent but there was more players with the same talent that never will be a hof.

[WalterBenitez]

Manu's Intl career makes him HOF in FIBA's world, add NBA's status and all his acomplishment make him a solid candidate.

Manu's Intl > Tony's, anyhow TP is younger and could make some good contribution to his candidacy.

Kukoc, Divac are probably the closest comparison to Manu, not sure if Drazen Petrovic is already a HOF under NBA, but for sure in FIBA's world.

[Bukefal]

To say Manu is better than Tim and Tony is really crazy. You cant be serious.

Tim is a hof, Tony probably will be and Manu, I dont know, maybe.

oooh this is going to be a tony vs manu thread again :corn:

[WalterBenitez]

Hey Agloco,

Who is that sweet lady in your signature? :baby

[Mel_13]

Manu's Intl career makes him HOF in FIBA's world, add NBA's status and all his acomplishment make him a solid candidate.

Manu's Intl > Tony's, anyhow TP is younger and could make some good contribution to his candidacy.

Kukoc, Divac are probably the closest comparison to Manu, not sure if Drazen Petrovic is already a HOF under NBA, but for sure in FIBA's world.

Petrovic was inducted in 2002.

[baseline bum]

Manu's a 100% lock to get in the HOF, just like Tim. Right now TP isn't close to being there yet.

[Kori Ellis]

I think Manu is a Hall of Famer definitely. With just his NBA resume, he doesn't really have a shot. Like someone said earlier, he made one All-Star team and one third team All-NBA... so that wouldn't have been enough without his international accolades.

Tony -- He has to have probably 3 more All-Star level seasons to have a chance.

And :lmao :lmao :lmao @ Manu being better than Tim.

[WalterBenitez]

To say Manu is better than Tim and Tony is really crazy. You cant be serious.

Tim is a hof, Tony probably will be and Manu, I dont know, maybe.

oooh this is going to be a tony vs manu thread again :corn:

just wait and see :eyebrows

[carina_gino20]

He could have retired after the 05 championship and still be HoF.

[Bukefal]

besides, you cant compare manu with divac or kukoc. especially not Divac. come on.

[JamStone]

Damn. Add an Olympic Gold to that, and he's right on pace with Manu.

I say it's right on pace without the Olympic Gold, arguably better.



Impressive. I'd still rate Manu's overall body of work as superior, but its closer than I would have thought. Manu's NT and NBA peaks were certainly much higher than Tony's, as Manu's 2004 Olympics and 2005 NBA Finals trump the 1990 WC and whichever NBA championship run was Tony's best.

Personally, the international resumes of Ginobili and Kukoc is pretty much a wash. Ginobili's gold medal in 2004 sticks out as the major distinction. However, I could argue that one of Kukoc's Olympic silvers came the Olympic year of the first Dream Team in 1992, while Ginobili's gold was won in an Olympic year the United States sent its weakest team of professionals, and arguably third tier stars (aside from Duncan and AI of course) compared to their other Olympic teams.

And I do think Kukoc has a more impressive "individual" international career. The 9 player of the year awards (Mister Euro POY and Euroscar POY) really stand out. I don't know what the equivalent would be for South American players or if there is one, but those awards are impressive nonetheless for Kukoc.

Ginobili's NBA career is better than Kukoc's. Neither is HOF worthy by themselves. There is no perfect comparison for Ginobili, but I think Kukoc is a much better analogy than say Kevin McHale or James Worthy, or internationally Vlade Divac or Tony Parker. Both Ginobili and Kukoc have seemingly unparalleled success at the Euroleague and international level and both were key components to 3 NBA championship teams. It's easy to argue that Ginobili had been more integral to the Spurs' titles than Kukoc. But then again, I don't believe HOF voters will necessarily take into account that Ginobili "almost won the 2005 NBA Finals MVP." Kukoc actually has pretty similar NBA Finals stats to Ginobili. Ginobili's are better, but not significantly.



Perhaps Spurs and Ginobili fans should hope Toni Kukoc gets some serious consideration for the HOF in upcoming years.

[JamStone]

besides, you cant compare manu with divac or kukoc. especially not Divac. come on.

Why not Kukoc?

[tothrowed]

Come on too Throwed!!!!!! i know how that doja be getting yoU!

anyways, i always knew Manu was better then Tony, but i dont know about tim! at this point right now, he might be better, but you like everyone also takes Timmy for granted, like he grabs 10 boards, and scores 20 points every game and thats not good enough for most people! when the team is in need of Timmy, best believe he produces, especially in the playoffs!

TIM then Manu!!!
Tim and Manu both make it in the HOF!!! Ginobili has a sixth man award, a world champion, 3 titles! Ginobili was significant in those title runs, best believe he makes it! If Dirk makes it, Gino is locked!

I dont need no help my n****, i can do bad all my self! Z-ro!
lmao what u know bout that abn z-ro & trae no help should be manus theme song

[NRHector]

http://i39.tinypic.com/6dzqef.gif
i just wanna mother fucking winthat right there shows the type of player Manu is ladies and gentlemen :toast

[PDXSpursFan]

IMO, TD > Manu > TP

The 3 will be HOF

[Mel_13]

Perhaps Spurs and Ginobili fans should hope Toni Kukoc gets some serious consideration for the HOF in upcoming years.

If Kukoc is inducted that would be a clear sign that Manu goes in when eligible.

These HOF discussions are always interesting because there are no established standards for induction and the membership and the criteria of the selection committees changes from year to year.

For example, there are two Croats and a Serb already in the HOF, while there are no South American male players. Should that make a difference for Divac, Kukoc, and Manu? Could it?

[MoSpur]

Its kind of crazy that someone would think Manu is better than Tim. Tim is a franchise player. One of the best all time w/out any question.

Not that Manu isn't great. He is. Especially is international play. He's been one of the best NBA's 6th Man since he took on that role. He'd probably have better stats if it weren't for his injuries, but the truth is that his injuries have hurt his NBA stats. I'm sure that doesn't matter to him. He's a winner. Big time winner. He's got a lot of heart when he plays and that is why I love that dude.

Tony is not a for sure HOFamer. He has three championships, a Finals MVP, and a couple of All Star appearances. He needs a few more seasons like he had in 2008-2009 to be a for sure Hall of Famer. His international career is not good as Manu. So that isn't gonna help him in.

Is Manu better than Tony? I don't know and don't really care. They're asked to do different things. At times Manu has carried the team like he is doing now. Then there were times when Tony has carried the team like he did last year. Its an argument that can go either way. I'm just happy they both play for the Spurs right now and have helped bring three NBA Titles to our city.

[JR3]

the combination of what he has done in the nba and internationally has to make him a hall of famer. Its the basketball hall of fame correct? not the nba hall of fame?

[spursfan1000]

He should. he has won mutiple championships, and has done great internationaly.

[Bukefal]

Why not Kukoc?

Well, for me the croatian sensation, is more impressive. Also as a player and his international career. his european career. Plus I also look at how tougher it was for the first international players in the nba. He was great, as a shooter his vision, best 6th man. I don't like comparisons though. But, I was more pointing out to Divac.

I wonder what Kukoc does now. His son, marin committed to Penn.

[urunobili]

Personally, the international resumes of Ginobili and Kukoc is pretty much a wash. Ginobili's gold medal in 2004 sticks out as the major distinction. However, I could argue that one of Kukoc's Olympic silvers came the Olympic year of the first Dream Team in 1992, while Ginobili's gold was won in an Olympic year the United States sent its weakest team of professionals, and arguably third tier stars (aside from Duncan and AI of course) compared to their other Olympic teams.

Yo Jam... are you seriously saying Scola, Delfino, Hermann, Oberto, Sanchez, Wolkowiski are > Odom, LeBron, Wade, Amare, Marion, Jefferson?

:wow:wow:wow:wow

Sorry but I couldn't resist... :lol:lol:lol

Kukoc doesn't deserve to be named on the same sentence with Manu Ginobili... he has no business there.... NONE

[Blackjack]

For example, there are two Croats and a Serb already in the HOF, while there are no South American male players.

Oscar Schmidt?

[Mel_13]

Oscar Schmidt?

Scored nearly 50,000 points but not in the HOF.

[JamStone]

Lol good one.

I actually think Vlade has a better chance at the HOF than Kukoc, but in a similar fashion as Drazen Petrovic was inducted, and that is go in as a player, but probably it having more to do with him as a contributor. Vlade is really one of the true forefathers of international NBA players, even more so than Marciulionis. As an ambassador and pioneer of Yugoslavian/Serbian basketball, Vlade deserves to go in as much as any international player.

I bring up Kukoc simply because most people who believe Manu is a HOFer say so because of his international resume. Now whether you believe Manu is better than Kukoc or Kukoc is better than Manu or they're similarly good, Kukoc's international resume is as impressive and arguably more impressive than Manu's. If you think Kukoc's career falls short of the HOF, then I personally think the same would be said of Manu's career.

[Bukefal]

Kukoc doesn't deserve to be named on the same sentence with Manu Ginobili... he has no business there.... NONE

I couldnt resist either :toast you are urunobili you are part of the church of manu, maybe even the head priest, so you are prejudiced and not really neutral in your point of view towards kukoc/manu thing.

So, I understand that you prefer manu more than kukoc, of course, but to say he should not deserve to be named in the same sentence with manu is over the top.

[Blackjack]

Damn, I always just assumed . . .

[Old School 44]

Manu's a lock. He'd be in my starting 5 top international players of all time!

[urunobili]

I couldnt resist either :toast you are urunobili you are part of the church of manu, maybe even the head priest, so you are prejudiced and not really neutral in your point of view towards kukoc/manu thing.

I understand that you prefer manu more than kukoc, of course, but to say he should not deserve to be named in the same sentence with manu is over the top.

Buke:

1) I'm arguing with JamStone and his previous post not with you
2) I aint part of no church and I ain't no fucking priest. When Manu is playing bad I am never up to blindly defend him like the CoM members do
3) I saw Kukoc Play his entire career and there is no prejudice believe me
4) I hope the last three points become clear enough for you not to further fuck with me about the subject.
5) Thanks for your efforts

[Bukefal]

Buke:

1) I'm arguing with JamStone and his previous post not with you
2) I aint part of no church and I ain't no fucking priest. When Manu is playing bad I am never up to blindly defend him like the CoM members do
3) I saw Kukoc Play his entire career and there is no prejudice believe me
4) I hope the last three points become clear enough for you not to further fuck with me about the subject.
5) Thanks for your efforts

1 - Well its a forum, anyone can reply right? if you wanted to post only with him and not receive posts from others you should have used pm's. Dont get mad if others reply to what you say.

2- the church of manu priest thing, i was joking, come on, a little bit humor. But isnt it that you have a love for ginobili, isnt it that ginobili is probably the one why you like this team or the player you like the most? Am I wrong if I state that he is your fav. player? I dont think so.

3- if you actually saw his entire career, i dont think you would say such a thing.

4- haha chill out. Im not fucking with you, in fact im even saying that i can understand that you prefer manu, of course I do, but I mean come on, to say that kukoc doesnt even deserve to be in the same sentence than manu, is crazy. that's very disrespectful towards kukoc, isnt it? over the top.

:toast

[TIMMYD!]

uronobili, did you change Bukefal to Pukefal? :lol

[Bukefal]

uronobili, did you change Bukefal to Pukefal? :lol

lol I didnt even see it. That's nice. Very original :lol

Dont know why you are in 'angry' mode though, urunobili. Just because I say Kukoc deserves a bit more respect than that statement.

[urunobili]

1 - Well its a forum, anyone can reply right? if you wanted to post only with him and not receive posts from others you should have used pm's. Dont get mad if others reply to what you say.

2- the church of manu priest thing, i was joking, come on, a little bit humor. But isnt it that you have a love for ginobili, isnt it that ginobili is probably the one why you like this team or the player you like the most? Am I wrong if I state that he is your fav. player? I dont think so.

3- if you actually saw his entire career, i dont think you would say such a thing.

4- haha chill out. Im not fucking with you, in fact im even saying that i can understand that you prefer manu, of course I do, but I mean come on, to say that kukoc doesnt even deserve to be in the same sentence than manu, is crazy. that's very disrespectful towards kukoc, isnt it? over the top.

:toast

Sorry i got mad but I try my best all the time not to be confused as a Manu first poster. Based on your attack and my lame reaction, I think it's time to give up this username and start using anotherone that does not define me as a "Manu Only" fan.

BTW my Fav all time player is not Manu is David Robinson.

[Brazil]

I couldnt resist either :toast you are urunobili you are part of the church of manu, maybe even the head priest, so you are prejudiced and not really neutral in your point of view towards kukoc/manu thing.

So, I understand that you prefer manu more than kukoc, of course, but to say he should not deserve to be named in the same sentence with manu is over the top.

nope... Uru is a fair spurs fan

[leo_d]

Someone said that Sabonis was the reason why the Dream Team was formed (after USA lose to Russia in Seoul), well, Manu Ginobili is the reason why they started to take it seriously.

He is the only one that has led a team to defeat Dream Team`s filled with hall of famers twice, including an elimination game in the Olimpics, which is still something unic.

[phxspurfan]

From what I've read, Urunobili is the least homerrific member of the Church.

[Bukefal]

nope... Uru is a fair spurs fan

Ok :tu


Sorry i got mad but I try my best all the time not to be confused as a Manu first poster. Based on your attack and my lame reaction, I think it's time to give up this username and start using anotherone that does not define me as a "Manu Only" fan.

BTW my Fav all time player is not Manu is David Robinson.

No problem man, I was just kidding around with the church thing. It doesnt matter if you are a manu only fan or not, I was pointing out to the manu-kukoc thing. I was just saying that i can understand you prefer manu more, but that its a bit over the top that kukoc doesnt deserve to be in same sentence.

:toast Salute

[lefty]

Manu's Hair is On Fire

[Galileo]

He's been in for a long time, and he's looking ready for a another great playoffs this year.

[Muser]

Manu should be a lock IMO. Be sweet if Manu/Timmy get inducted the same night.

[smeagol]

TD>>>>>Manu.

But TD is who will make Manu and TP a hof.Some players are hof because they were lucky to play alont the greatest players of all time.They had talent but there was more players with the same talent that never will be a hof.

What a load of crap!

[urunobili]

one thing is for sure... ST will be on fire traffic wise until years after the big three are in :toast

[Whisky Dog]

Since its the Basketball HoF and not the NBA HoF I think he better be a lock.

Fify. International league titles, Olympic gold medal where he was the main guy, 3 NBA titles - one of the most competitive guys to ever step on the court. It's a no-brainer.

[DAF86]

I think the international resume gives him a very good shot but it's still probably debatable. I think the Hall would do well to include him, as well as a guy like Vlade Divac.

Manu is a mortal lock for the HoF, just go see some of the international players that are in the HoF. If they got in, there's no way Manu doesn't get in.

[DAF86]

And just for the record: Tony will get to the HoF too, he's a three times NBA champion, finals MVP, three times ALL-star and you also have to remember that he's only 27/28 years old, he has at the very least 5/6 years of NBA basketball in him, so he will keep acumulating points and stats (he has been playing since he was a teeneger in the league).

Not too long ago I saw that he was one of the leaders in pts scored in the playoffs for players under the age of 28.

[JamStone]

Manu is a mortal lock for the HoF, just go see some of the international players that are in the HoF. If they got in, there's no way Manu doesn't get in.

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well?

[jack sommerset]

Duncan is only HOF'er on the Spews current roster. Jefferson is better than Mangoo and noone thinks he will be a HOF'er.

[DAF86]

Kukoc's international career:

3x Euroleage Final Four MVP
1990 FIBA World Championship MVP
5x Eurosar Player of the Year
4x Mr. Europa Player of the Year
1991 Eoropean Championship MVP
2x Olympic Silver medalist
World Championship Gold medalist
2x Euro Championship Gold medalist

And of course 3x NBA champ and 6th man of the year winner

The Gold medal + Olympics MVP + beign the leader of the first team to beat a US squad full of NBA players make a huge difference, also Manu's role in the NBA > Kukoc's

[spurs10]

lock

[DAF86]

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well?


The Gold medal + Olympics MVP + beign the leader of the first team to beat a US squad full of NBA players make a huge difference, also Manu's role in the NBA > Kukoc's

[Blackjack]

Duncan is only HOF'er on the Spews current roster. Jefferson is better than Mangoo and noone thinks he will be a HOF'er.

Who's Mangoo and noone? (Glad to hear Manu's got his vote, though. :tu)

[DAF86]

besides, you cant compare manu with divac or kukoc. especially not Divac. come on.

Dude, you really have no idea who Manu is or what he has done over the course of his career.

[DAF86]

For example, there are two Croats and a Serb already in the HOF, while there are no South American male players.

Not too long ago, two Argentine players (part of the Argentine squad that won the first World Cup of Basketball) were induced into the HoF.

[Obstructed_View]

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well?

I'm still not quite sure how you keep thinking Toni Kukoc is comparable to Manu Ginobili. :lol

Ginobili would be a lock for the hall of fame if he'd never played in the NBA.

[Solid D]

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blogmedia/2008/08/ditka_ditka.jpg = HALL OF FAME

http://www.prosportswrap.com/images/manu-ginobili1.jpg > http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blogmedia/2008/08/ditka_ditka.jpg

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/41700/41757/FC_Therefore_41757_md.gif

http://www.prosportswrap.com/images/manu-ginobili1.jpg = HALL OF FAME

[Blackjack]

True. That is some Solid logic. :tu

[tothrowed]

Yo the person who gives spurs on here should give me a spur i only been on here 1 month or 2 and already predicted spurs would stop kd's streak and all the threads i start go hot mayne and i was watching this thing on espn i forgot when but it said manu is the 3rd best left hand basketball player of all time

[jermaine]

All the international stuff that he's done would be enough to put him in, but his NBA career wouldn't quite be worthy of it.

Are you serious? You must be ouuta yo rabbit ass mind! He aint done enough. Some of you people don't watch basketball. Yal just watch stats.

[DAF86]

Are you serious? You must be ouuta yo rabbit ass mind! He aint done enough. Some of you people don't watch basketball. Yal just watch stats.

I'm a big Manu fan but his NBA career isn't enough to make him a HoF.

[superjames1992]

He's definitely a HOFer because of his international and Olympic accolades. It's the Basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF.

[Bukefal]

Dude, you really have no idea who Manu is or what he has done over the course of his career.

Really? Are you thinking Kukoc doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence with manu too? :lol

[Mel_13]

Really? Are you thinking Kukoc doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence with manu too? :lol

Of course Kukoc can be in the same sentence with Manu. Something likes this comes to mind:

Manu is a lock for induction to the Basketball HOF while Kukoc is not.

[Bukefal]

Of course Kukoc can be in the same sentence with Manu. Something likes this comes to mind:

Manu is a lock for induction to the Basketball HOF while Kukoc is not.

:lol nice one

[JamStone]

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well?


The Gold medal + Olympics MVP + beign the leader of the first team to beat a US squad full of NBA players make a huge difference, also Manu's role in the NBA > Kukoc's

That doesn't answer my question. In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well.

Here's what you're said to argue why Manu is a mortal lock:


Manu is a mortal lock for the HoF, just go see some of the international players that are in the HoF. If they got in, there's no way Manu doesn't get in.

With that logic, look at Toni Kukoc's international resume and his international career outshines all of the international players in the HOF like you argue Manu's does. At this point, it's not about whether you feel Manu has a better case, which is arguable but I can agree with. It's about you using the logic that Manu's list of accomplishments are greater than the international players already in the HOF. With that logic, go look. Toni Kukoc's international accomplishments are greater than those guys too.

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock for the HOF as well?

[JamStone]

I'm still not quite sure how you keep thinking Toni Kukoc is comparable to Manu Ginobili. :lol

Ginobili would be a lock for the hall of fame if he'd never played in the NBA.

Precisely because of your last sentence.

Many if not most people who are argue that Ginobili deserves to be in the HOF based on his international accomplishments. And right there you just said if Manu never played in the NBA, he'd still be a lock. Well, Kukoc's international career is just as good and arguably better than Manu's international career.

Take away the NBA part of both of their careers. That's why I bring up Kukoc.

[Brazil]

Déjà vu thread

[JamStone]

The Gold medal + Olympics MVP + beign the leader of the first team to beat a US squad full of NBA players make a huge difference, also Manu's role in the NBA > Kukoc's

First, I'm pretty sure there is no such "Olympics MVP" award.

Secondly, I love how some other posters have made the point that Manu "almost won" the 2005 NBA Finals MVP as part of the argument. Well, let's re-examine the 2004 Olympic gold medal Argentina won and look at circumstantial factors as well. That was the most watered down Olympic squad Team USA put out since they started sending pros to the Olympics. In 2004, the best American born NBA players didn't even go to the Olympics except for Duncan and Iverson. LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo just finished their rookies years and didn't even get legitimate playing time. Team USA even sent several veteran players who weren't even all stars, in Odom, Richard Jefferson, Boozer. The best players in the league at the team included guys like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Jason Kidd, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady... they didn't participate. Compare that to the 1992 Dream Team that Kukoc and Croatia lost to who not only had all the best players in the NBA participate, but the best players in the history of the game.

The Olympic gold Manu helped Argentina win is absolutely a great accomplishment. But, let's be real. You add Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, and either KG or JO, does Argentina beat Team USA? If people are going to say "Manu almost won the Finals MVP" as one deciding factor, I'm going to argue the 2004 Olympic gold is weakened by what I just wrote.

Kukoc international resume, even without that Olympic gold, is still arguably better.

Kukoc was the first international player to start on an NBA championship team.

[Obstructed_View]

Precisely because of your last sentence.

Many if not most people who are argue that Ginobili deserves to be in the HOF based on his international accomplishments. And right there you just said if Manu never played in the NBA, he'd still be a lock. Well, Kukoc's international career is just as good and arguably better than Manu's international career.
Take away the NBA part of both of their careers. That's why I bring up Kukoc.

If Manu's Euroleague career were what makes him a lock for the hall of fame, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. I don't know for sure, but I don't think Kukoc was the best player on any of his national teams, and I don't think any of them ever came in better than third place, and none of them beat a US team full of NBA stars on the way to a gold medal or a world championship.

Take away the NBA part of both of their careers, and then take away Manu's FIBA career, and then he and Kukoc are similar.

[Obstructed_View]

The Olympic gold Manu helped Argentina win is absolutely a great accomplishment. But, let's be real.

You should have stopped there. Let's be real. It's a great accomplishment and nobody is going to go back years from now and say "well that US team couldn't hit an outside shot so their gold medal doesn't count as much".

[PublicOption]

why wouldn't he be?

its the "BASKETBALL HOF"

not the "NBA HOF"

[JamStone]

You should have stopped there. Let's be real. It's a great accomplishment and nobody is going to go back years from now and say "well that US team couldn't hit an outside shot so their gold medal doesn't count as much".

Just like nobody is going to argue "but Manu almost won an NBA Finals MVP?"

That's partly my point.

[PublicOption]

I'm a big Manu fan but his NBA career isn't enough to make him a HoF.


you are an idiot.

[Obstructed_View]

Just like nobody is going to argue "but Manu almost won an NBA Finals MVP?"

That's partly my point.

Oh I completely agree with you on that. Your contention about the USA team is a perfect counterargument to the "Shoulda been finals MVP" crowd.

[JamStone]

If Manu's Euroleague career were what makes him a lock for the hall of fame, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. I don't know for sure, but I don't think Kukoc was the best player on any of his national teams, and I don't think any of them ever came in better than third place, and none of them beat a US team full of NBA stars on the way to a gold medal or a world championship.

Take away the NBA part of both of their careers, and then take away Manu's FIBA career, and then he and Kukoc are similar.

Kukoc was the best player on the Croatian team that won silver in the 1992 Olympics. Their 2 losses in the Olympic tournament were against the Dream Team. Yes, he was the best player on that team and on most of the National teams he played for.

Kukoc has two Olympic silver medals. He has a FIBA World Championship gold from 1990 (that tournament did award MVP and Kukoc won it). He has two more Euro Championship golds from 1989 and 1991.

Kukoc's FIBA career absolutely rivals Manu's.

[Obstructed_View]

you are an idiot.

Manu currently falls between Antawn Jamison and Richard Jefferson on the hall of fame probablility list at basketball-reference.com.

[Obstructed_View]

Kukoc was the best player on the Croatian team that won silver in the 1992 Olympics. Their 2 losses in the Olympic tournament were against the Dream Team. Yes, he was the best player on that team and on most of the National teams he played for.

Kukoc has two Olympic silver medals. He has a World Championship gold from 1990. He has two more Euro Championship golds from 1989 and 1991.

Kukoc's FIBA career absolutely rivals Manu's.

Can't argue with that. I hereby retract my earlier statement. :toast

[jjktkk]

Well, let's re-examine the 2004 Olympic gold medal Argentina won and look at circumstantial factors as well. That was the most watered down Olympic squad Team USA put out since they started sending pros to the Olympics. In 2004, the best American born NBA players didn't even go to the Olympics except for Duncan and Iverson.

That sure sounds an awlful lot Like Phil Jackson's comments on the Spurs championship in 99 needing an asterisk put alongside their title because of the shortened season that year. Pretty lame IMO. An championship, or a Gold Medal is still quite an accomplishment, no matter how you win, or who the competition is.

[Mel_13]

Kukoc was the best player on the Croatian team that won silver in the 1992 Olympics.

Drazen Petrovic, 27 years old and in his prime, was on that 1992 Croatian team.

[JamStone]

Drazen Petrovic, 27 years old and in his prime, was on that 1992 Croatian team.

That's arguable. In 1992, Kukoc has just won his third straight Mr. Europa Player of the Year award. He had won the European Championship MVP a year earlier in 1991. He was already a two time Euroscar Player of the Year award winner and two time Euroleague Final Four MVP winner. He was widely considered the best European player period, much less the best player on Croatia's team. There's no doubt that Drazen was also a European superstar in his own right. It was quite the luxury for Croatia to boast a couple superstar players, even after the Yugoslavian split.

But, I think it's still only arguable at best. Kind of like 23 year old LeBron and 29 year old Kobe on the 2008 Olympic squad. Can easily argue Kobe in his prime was the best player on that team. But the flipside saying LeBron was the best player on that team despite being only 23 had just as much merit.

[ElNono]

I think something that needs to be remarked is that when JamStone says: "Well, they only lost to the Dream Team", and that's exactly what made that Argentinian core so special. It wasn't just the gold in Athens, but the fact that were able to:
1) Be the first team to beat Team USA since they started fielding NBA players
2) Be the first team that actually accomplished the feat twice

Ginobili was the leader of that core and the day he's enshrined in the HoF, it will be a recognition not only to him, but to that generation of players and their historical accomplishment.

[JamStone]

That sure sounds an awlful lot Like Phil Jackson's comments on the Spurs championship in 99 needing an asterisk put alongside their title because of the shortened season that year. Pretty lame IMO. An championship, or a Gold Medal is still quite an accomplishment, no matter how you win, or who the competition is.

You didn't follow the entire series of posts if you thought that was my bottomline point. But regardless, I'll address it this way:

So Arvydus Sabonis' gold medal in the 1988 Olympics carries as much merit even though that Olympics had no professional NBA athletes?

Yugoslavia finished ahead of that Team USA squad as well in that Olympics, winning silver to USA's bronze. So, Toni Kukoc was on a team that was better than American players in the 1988 Olympics so that must be part of his legend as well and factor in his HOF chances, right?

[Josepatches_]

Kukoc was the best player on the Croatian team that won silver in the 1992 Olympics.

Kukoc was really good but not true.Drazen was.Petrovic was in another level.

[ElNono]

And BTW, I have nothing against Kukoc, who I thought was an outstanding player. But Mel is right in that the HoF recognized that golden era of Croatian basketball and it's massive influence in the mass influx on European players in the NBA by enshrining him. You could even argue Kukoc's NBA career (and to some degree, Manu's NBA career) is a by-product of Petrovic.

[smeagol]

You didn't follow the entire series of posts if you thought that was my bottomline point. But regardless, I'll address it this way:

So Arvydus Sabonis' gold medal in the 1988 Olympics carries as much merit even though that Olympics had no professional NBA athletes?

Yugoslavia finished ahead of that Team USA squad as well in that Olympics, winning silver to USA's bronze. So, Toni Kukoc was on a team that was better than American players in the 1988 Olympics so that must be part of his legend as well and factor in his HOF chances, right?
The 1988 USA squad had no NBA players, right?

So how is it comparable to 2004?

[JamStone]

I think something that needs to be remarked is that when JamStone says: "Well, they only lost to the Dream Team", and that's exactly what made that Argentinian core so special. It wasn't just the gold in Athens, but the fact that were able to:
1) Be the first team to beat Team USA since they started fielding NBA players
2) Be the first team that actually accomplished the feat twice

Ginobili was the leader of that core and the day he's enshrined in the HoF, it will be a recognition not only to him, but to that generation of players and their historical accomplishment.

I wasn't intimating that Argentina Olympic Gold medal team wasn't special. I was addressing a couple of points. First, people love to point out different outside factors to make a point but hate when similar arguments are made against their opinion. It's like hating when Laker fans asterisks the Spurs 1999 NBA title, but always pointing out when Tim Duncan isn't 100% in the playoffs with plantar fasciitis or whatever other ailment or how Manu wasn't healthy, etc.

It's always easy to use it if it helps your argument but even easier to discredit it if it goes against your argument.

Secondly, while I don't really discredit that Argentine Olympic gold medal, you cannot deny how weak that Team USA squad was in 2004. I believe 7 of the 12 players on that squad at the time hadn't even been all stars before. 5-6 of the best NBA players were missing from that squad. Three of the players who have later turned out to be among the best players on that squad in LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo didn't even get significant minutes in the Olympics.

Now say what you will, but that was a weak Dream Team. And, while I don't believe it means Argentina didn't deserve it, I do think people will remember how weak that Dream Team was. And, moreover, I don't think there's a Hade's chance in hell Ginobili and Argentina beat Team USA even once much less twice if they had even two of the following players on that squad: Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal. Pick any two of those. And, Team USA wins gold. My opinion.

Again, I made that post mostly in jaded response to how some people like to mention certain circumstantial factors when it helps their argument but discredit them when it hurts their argument. But, also realistically, I think it at least deserves mention.

[Josepatches_]

That's arguable. In 1992, Kukoc has just won his third straight Mr. Europa Player of the Year award. He had won the European Championship MVP a year earlier in 1991. He was already a two time Euroscar Player of the Year award winner and two time Euroleague Final Four MVP winner. He was widely considered the best European player period, much less the best player on Croatia's team. There's no doubt that Drazen was also a European superstar in his own right. It was quite the luxury for Croatia to boast a couple superstar players, even after the Yugoslavian split.

But, I think it's still only arguable at best. Kind of like 23 year old LeBron and 29 year old Kobe on the 2008 Olympic squad. Can easily argue Kobe in his prime was the best player on that team. But the flipside saying LeBron was the best player on that team despite being only 23 had just as much merit.

Sabonis and Petrovic were considered the best european players until guys live Nowitzki,Gasol or Parker arrived.

I don't know where you live but here in Spain there is no doubt about.Kukoc had a lot of talent but Petrovic and Sabonis were better.

[ElNono]

Everything is arguable. Even the fact that NBA players simply were not used to the international game. Tell you more, Jason Kidd was invited to play in 2002 Worlds, but he was injured and couldn't play and Jermaine O'Neal was actually part of that team (alongside other guys like Finley and Pierce). That's not Argentina's fault though. And I'm pretty sure no sane person thought they could beat THAT team USA before the game started either.

Again, what that group did was historical for basketball, and I think Manu will be recognized by the Hall in due time as a symbol of that team's accomplishment.

[JamStone]

The 1988 USA squad had no NBA players, right?

So how is it comparable to 2004?

Did you read what post that was in response to?


That sure sounds an awlful lot Like Phil Jackson's comments on the Spurs championship in 99 needing an asterisk put alongside their title because of the shortened season that year. Pretty lame IMO. An championship, or a Gold Medal is still quite an accomplishment, no matter how you win, or who the competition is.

[JamStone]

Kukoc was really good but not true.Drazen was.Petrovic was in another level.

Again, still only arguable. By 1992, Kukoc had established himself as the best European player. But I concede it's debatable. But it's debatable like the argument that "LeBron has been better than Kobe since around 2007/2008" is debatable.

By 1992, Kukoc had already won the Euroscar POY twice, Mr. Europa POY three times, European Championship MVP once, and FIBA World Championship MVP once (when he was on the same team as Drazen in 1990). Doesn't mean Drazen wasn't in the conversation. But, I absolutely will challenge that Drzen was on another level in 1992.

[JamStone]

Sabonis and Petrovic were considered the best european players until guys live Nowitzki,Gasol or Parker arrived.

I don't know where you live but here in Spain there is no doubt about.Kukoc had a lot of talent but Petrovic and Sabonis were better.

My contention that Kukoc was the better player by 1992 does not mean Drazen wasn't incredible or wasn't one of the greatest European players ever. By 1992, Toni Kukoc had already established himself as the premier European player even at his young age at the time.

I think legend has a way of not always doing history justice. But, I won't challenge your personal opinion from your point of view as a European that Sabonis and Petrovic are considered better. But I do challenge that by 1992 that Petrovic was on another level than Kukoc. By 1992, I don't believe that was the case any more.

I don't live in Europe, never have. I live in the USA.

[exstatic]

I think the international resume gives him a very good shot but it's still probably debatable. I think the Hall would do well to include him, as well as a guy like Vlade Divac.

Look at Drazen Petrovic's resume. Their Euro and FIBA careers are comparable, and sadly, because Drazen's NBA career was cut short by his death, Manu's NBA resume is better.

He's as stone cold a lock as Tim or Kobe.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted

Yes, IMHO, Manu is a Hall of Famer. No other player has won NBA, Euroleague, World Championships and Olympics.

As for "is better than Tim", GTFO! :rolleyes

[blkroadrunners]

Have yall seen some of the players in the HoF? For the most part, it's a joke. Manu's well ahead of most of the players - he should be a lock.

[hitmanyr2k]

Manu Ginobili will be in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot but he'll be there eventually for his overall career. As for the comparison to Kukoc, I think Ginobili's game adjusted a lot better from Europe to the NBA. Kukoc was a great European player but in the NBA not even a borderline all-star and his playoff performances don't come close to what Ginobili did for the Spurs.

[DubMcDub]

Manu is not a HoFer. He would be one if they considered international play along with NBA success. But they don't, and despite his 3 championships and his incredibly clutch play at times, he doesn't pass the smell test.

[hitmanyr2k]

Manu is not a HoFer. He would be one if they considered international play along with NBA success. But they don't, and despite his 3 championships and his incredibly clutch play at times, he doesn't pass the smell test.

http://hitmanyr2k.com/YoureOneDumbMF.jpg

[DubMcDub]

http://hitmanyr2k.com/YoureOneDumbMF.jpg

Who's the last marginal HoF player who was given the nod because of international success?

[jjktkk]

My contention that Kukoc was the better player by 1992 does not mean Drazen wasn't incredible or wasn't one of the greatest European players ever. By 1992, Toni Kukoc had already established himself as the premier European player even at his young age at the time.

I think legend has a way of not always doing history justice. But, I won't challenge your personal opinion from your point of view as a European that Sabonis and Petrovic are considered better. But I do challenge that by 1992 that Petrovic was on another level than Kukoc. By 1992, I don't believe that was the case any more.

I don't live in Europe, never have. I live in the USA.

Okay, I'll throw out what Kukoc and Ginoboli accomplished for their respective NBA teams and countries. Just comparing Ginoboli and Kukoc side by side, I can honestly say that Ginoboli is a better overall player. Ginoboli is just as good of passer and facilitator, in fact, I give Ginoboli the edge there. Ginoboli is a more consistant scorer, and a better defender than Kukoc. And IMO what really seperates Ginoboli from Kukoc is Ginoboli's competitive fire, his will to win. While Kukoc was a pretty good player, I'd definitely give Ginoboli the edge.

[ElNono]

Who's the last marginal HoF player who was given the nod because of international success?

Dino Meneghin?
Drazen Petrovic?
Hortencia de Fatima Marcari?
Kresimir Cosic?
Uljana Semjonova?
Sergei A. Belov?

Some of those didn't even have an NBA career...

[poop]

Manu is one of the greatest all-round basketall players of all time.

[DubMcDub]

Dino Meneghin?
Drazen Petrovic?
Hortencia de Fatima Marcari?
Kresimir Cosic?
Uljana Semjonova?
Sergei A. Belov?

Some of those didn't even have an NBA career...

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some suspicion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

That said, looking at your list, I feel I stand corrected. You make a great point. He's got a great shot if those guys can all make it.

[duhoh]

let's see:

olympic gold medal
euroleague titles
nba titles

better resume than most nba players. it's a wrap.

[jjktkk]

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some suspicion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

That said, looking at your list, I feel I stand corrected. You make a great point. He's got a great shot if those guys can all make it.

I highly doubt that the HOF voters will overlook Ginoboli's accomplishments to his National team. If anything Ginoboli's Olympic achievements will enhance his entry into the HOF. To help his Argentinian Team, whose country's #1 sport is soccer, win a gold medal in basketball, is a huge success IMO.

[kaji157]

Manu is a lock mainly because it is a Basketball HOF and not NBA only.
His international resume makes it a lock by those standars.
But he has also lead a change in some NBA paradigms that will make him more of a lock also.
He has been an ambasador of international players and since his arrival the door really opened, as before him, there where almost no NBA stars drafted oversees that were not known in the US (Gasol and Nowitzky where quite hyped when they were drafted).
The other thing he changed was the common thought that FIBA players didn't defend and only shoot 3's, the role for FIBA guards has been increased sice his arrival and scouters are looking for Manu like players around the world.
As of last, not to everyone, but many NBA fans and reporters believe he has redefined what is to be a star, not basing his game on his stats, rather than doing all he can to help the team, weather it is to score 30, run the team, defend, block shots, rebounds or start off the bench, letting others shine for the good of the team.
I think that is what would be written about him below his photos in the Hall of Fame in a few years.

[exstatic]

Who's the last marginal HoF player who was given the nod because of international success?

Drazen Petrovic. Go to the HoF site and check his profile. Their international careers were parallel, with Drazen getting FIBA WC gold and Olympic Silvers and Manu getting Olympic gold and WC silvers. They both won Euro league championships, and each had one 3rd team All NBA selection. Manu had a more complete NBA career because Drazen's was cut short by his unfortunate death in a car crash.

Drazen's profile (http://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/tag/drazen-petrovic)

[ambchang]

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some suspicion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

That said, looking at your list, I feel I stand corrected. You make a great point. He's got a great shot if those guys can all make it.

Basketball HoF have the same committee for everyone, and is roundly chided for often devaluing NBA accomplishments.

[Mel_13]

Basketball HoF have the same committee for everyone, and is roundly chided for often devaluing NBA accomplishments.

SCREENING COMMITTEES
There are four Screening Committees: 1. North American; 2. Women; 3. Veterans (an individual whose career ended 35 years before his/her current consideration); and 4. International.

HONORS COMMITTEE
The purpose of the Honors Committee is to review carefully a candidate's basketball record before casting a vote in favor of Enshrining the person into the BHOF. There are 24 people on each of the four Honors Committees. They include Hall of Famers, basketball executives, media members and other contributors to the game. A core group of 12 people sit on all four committees. Twelve specialists are then added to the International Committee while 12 others are added to the Women's Committee. Twelve other specialists review both the Veterans Committee and the North American Committee. These specialists have an intimate understanding of the specific category of play considered by their committee. A person needs a minimum of 18 votes from an Honors Committee to be Enshrined into the BHOF.

http://www.hoophall.com/enshrinement-process/

[diego]

JamStone,
Olympics MVP didnt exist until Manu made it exist. Its the only time the award was given. See here:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa...n/history.html

That is an official FIBA site.

As for the argument about the 04 team being the most watered down "dream team" ever, there is a plausible argument for that. The fact that they lost is in and of itself the most damning evidence. However...

-1) Wade played a few minutes less than pepe sanchez for the tournament (argentina's starting PG and first NBA player). James, Amare and Melo didn't get much time, but they did play about the minutes that Delfino and Hermann played for Argentina. are delfino/hermann > amare, LBJ, melo?? is pepe sanchez > dwade? of course not. should they have played more minutes? probably. But if they are getting out played by scrubs is that larry brown's fault? My point is that they did play, and that other teams had much worse players playing those minutes. Odom, Marion, Boozer, Marbury, perhaps didnt have the top billing of stars (that you mentioned) like Garnett, JO, Tmac, Kidd; but then did Oberto, Scola, Nocioni and Wolkowyski have any kind of billing? Also I'll remind you that JO played for the 02 team and got spanked by Scola in that game, and that Tmac and I believe Ray allen both pulled out of 04 because they were scared of a terrorist attack. Seriously though, if you are going by reputation/billing, before the tournament the US was the clear favorite, even despite the 02 WC. Nobody was saying "the US is going to lose because Duncan, Boozer and Odom wont be able to handle Oberto and Scola, and sanchez, ginobili and nocioni are going to run circles around iverson, marbury and jefferson."

and 2) Croatia/Yugoslavia are a perennial powerhouse that is almost always stacked. Argentina's only success was in the first tournament (that we hosted), without doubt the most amateur of all the amateur competitions. Argentina even had players on the team that played in the domestic league, which is several rungs below even weaker european leagues. in HOF terms, absolute nobodies.

So you add those two together and what I'm trying to say is that, the US didnt send their "best" (according to perceptions) dream team, but they also didnt lose to their "best" (according to perceptions) rival. That tournament changed a lot of perceptions in the basketball world.

[smeagol]

Even if you consider Manu's and Kukoc's international CVs similar, Manu's NBA accomplishments are far superior to Tony's.

[urunobili]

Even if you consider Manu's and Kukoc's international CVs similar, Manu's NBA accomplishments are far superior to Tony's.

That is what I had in mind when i said that Kukoc's resume doesn't have what it takes to be named next to Manu's... If Manu would have stayed in Europe more time his resume there would be as impressive as I'm sure...

NBA? that's a man's league... from there Manu's contribution and stardom there took him to heights Kukoc never had...

:wakeup

[JamStone]

You can't have it both ways.

Pretty much everyone who believes Ginobili will go to the HOF will do so based on the merits of his international career and not because of his NBA career. If that's the case, then you look at Kukoc's international career and his is as if not more impressive than Manu's. You can't make an addendum argument that Manu's NBA career was better when the initial argument for Manu being a HOF is based on his international career. Most even agree that on his NBA career alone, Manu would not be a HOF. Don't add that into the equation to make a distinction when that's not why Manu could be in the HOF.

And you cannot argue that had Manu stayed in Europe, his resume would be as impressive as Kukoc because they both came to the NBA at the same age, 25. Poor argument.

[urunobili]

And you cannot argue that had Manu stayed in Europe, his resume would be as impressive as Kukoc because they both came to the NBA at the same age, 25. Poor argument.

Still better than yours claiming that the 2004 US Olympics squad had 2 superstars and a bunch of scrubs... :lol

even if that's the case, Argentina had a second tier star leading a bunch of scrubs over them for the second consecutive time on an international big tournament...

[JamStone]

Not really.

[Cane]

Not really.

Really.

[urunobili]

Not really.

So how many years Kukoc played in Europe and how many years did Ginobili play there? :wakeup

[JamStone]

If I read it right, Manu played professionally 3 years in Argentina, then 4 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA. And Kukoc played 6 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA.

So two more years for Kukoc in Euroleague. Manu had one more year playing pro basketball with his 3 years in Argentina.

[urunobili]

If I read it right, Manu played professionally 3 years in Argentina, then 4 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA. And Kukoc played 6 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA.

So two more years for Kukoc in Euroleague. Manu had one more year playing pro basketball with his 3 years in Argentina.

He didn't win anything on his pro career in Argentina so that one more year experience in a weaker league doesn't count. Is like counting Kukoc's non professional experience or in non Eurolegue clubs too.

so back where we were... Kukoc DID play more years in the Eurolegue than Manu... :wakeup

[JamStone]

Yes, Kukoc played two more years in Euroleague than Manu.

So Manu didn't win anything in a weaker league in three years?

Cool.

[oski1000]

If Manu were born in USA, this questions doesn´t make any sense. Or if he had played for the Lakers or the Knicks.

[JamStone]

Or if his NBA averages were 30 PPG / 15 RPG / 12 APG and he was awarded 5 League MVPs. Then it wouldn't make sense either.

[urunobili]

Or if his NBA averages were 30 PPG / 15 RPG / 12 APG and he was awarded 5 League MVPs. Then it wouldn't make sense either.

CROFL

Question for ya Jam... what did Kukoc win before arriving to the Euroleague?

and BTW: Manu won Rookie of the year among other individual accolades on both the Argie league and international Junior competition... just did not lead a team to win it all at age 17...

[oski1000]

Drazan Petrovis is in HOF with this Career Highlights

Silver Medal in 1988 (Yugsolavia) and 1992 (Croatia) Olympic Games
Gold Medal in World Championships with National Team, 1990
Named Sportsman of the Year in his native Croatia, 1985, 1986, 1988
All-NBA Third-Team, 1993

Manu´s accomplishments are far greater than those ....IMHO :king:king

[DubMcDub]

Basketball HoF have the same committee for everyone, and is roundly chided for often devaluing NBA accomplishments.

As the poster below you pointed out, this is incorrect.

[DAF86]

That doesn't answer my question. In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock as well.

Here's what you're said to argue why Manu is a mortal lock:



With that logic, look at Toni Kukoc's international resume and his international career outshines all of the international players in the HOF like you argue Manu's does. At this point, it's not about whether you feel Manu has a better case, which is arguable but I can agree with. It's about you using the logic that Manu's list of accomplishments are greater than the international players already in the HOF. With that logic, go look. Toni Kukoc's international accomplishments are greater than those guys too.

In your honest opinion, is Toni Kukoc a mortal lock for the HOF as well?

Yes, IMO Kukoc should be in the HoF.

[DAF86]

Really? Are you thinking Kukoc doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence with manu too? :lol

I wouldn't say that but Manu is clearly > Kukoc

Besides you were the one that started the "you can't compare player "X" with player "Y" talk.


besides, you cant compare manu with divac or kukoc. especially not Divac. come on.

If you really think that Manu can't be compared to Kukoc and Divac, then like I said, you don't know anything about Manu.

[DAF86]

First, I'm pretty sure there is no such "Olympics MVP" award.

http://www.thebasketballworld.com/top_players/manu_ginobili.htm

[DAF86]

you are an idiot.

Why? do you think that Manu's NBA career is worthy of the HoF?

[JamStone]

CROFL

Question for ya Jam... what did Kukoc win before arriving to the Euroleague?

Yes. His Yugoslavian Junior National team won the World Junior Championship in 1987. In the championship game against Team USA's Junior National team, Toni hit 11 three-pointers. Toni was 18 at the time.




and BTW: Manu won Rookie of the year among other individual accolades on both the Argie league and international Junior competition... just did not lead a team to win it all at age 17...

Good info.

[JamStone]

http://www.thebasketballworld.com/top_players/manu_ginobili.htm

There's more discussion in the NBA section. The award isn't given by Olympics. If it's even a tangible award, it's by FIBA. But I don't think it's a real award at all. Is there any hardware attached to it. People on here suggest there is. I'd like to know.

[urunobili]

Yes. His Yugoslavian Junior National team won the World Junior Championship in 1987. In the championship game against Team USA's Junior National team, Toni hit 11 three-pointers. Toni was 18 at the time.Good info.

:rolleyes should I bring all the Junior south American championships Manu won too :rolleyes

[DAF86]

So Manu didn't win anything in a weaker league in three years?

Cool.

He was a teeneger.

[Sec24Row7]

Manu is just as much a lock as Duncan.

[Old School 44]

You can't have it both ways.

Pretty much everyone who believes Ginobili will go to the HOF will do so based on the merits of his international career and not because of his NBA career. If that's the case, then you look at Kukoc's international career and his is as if not more impressive than Manu's. You can't make an addendum argument that Manu's NBA career was better when the initial argument for Manu being a HOF is based on his international career. Most even agree that on his NBA career alone, Manu would not be a HOF. Don't add that into the equation to make a distinction when that's not why Manu could be in the HOF.

And you cannot argue that had Manu stayed in Europe, his resume would be as impressive as Kukoc because they both came to the NBA at the same age, 25. Poor argument.

Manu and Kukoc should both be in the HOF on the merits of both international and NBA play.

Is Manu better? I think so, but like most on this board that's who I've seen the most. I did watch a lot of the Bulls games during their run, and I'd have to say Manu was more instrumental in the Spurs 3 titles, than Kukoc during the Bulls second three-peat. In fairness to Kukoc, playing with Jordan, it's easy for your game to be overlooked.

If Manu and Toni didn't go to established teams, teams with All-time NBA stars, who do you think would have had the better NBA career? Do you think either of them in their prime could have been the franchise player for another NBA team?

[JamStone]

:rolleyes should I bring all the Junior south American championships Manu won too :rolleyes

Sure. Is a Junior South American championship better than a Junior World championship?

[TMTTRIO]

Well Manu's only one of two players to have won a Euroleague title, Olympic Gold Medal, and a NBA Championship.

[JamStone]

Manu and Kukoc should both be in the HOF on the merits of both international and NBA play.

Is Manu better? I think so, but like most on this board that's who I've seen the most. I did watch a lot of the Bulls games during their run, and I'd have to say Manu was more instrumental in the Spurs 3 titles, than Kukoc during the Bulls second three-peat. In fairness to Kukoc, playing with Jordan, it's easy for your game to be overlooked.

If Manu and Toni didn't go to established teams, teams with All-time NBA stars, who do you think would have had the better NBA career? Do you think either of them in their prime could have been the franchise player for another NBA team?

This is absolutely a fair assessment.

Personally, it's hard to know who would have had a better NBA career if Toni didn't play with Jordan and Ginobili didn't play with Duncan. But, I do know this. I personally believe it's far easier for Ginobili to have shined playing with an unselfish superstar like Tim Duncan than it was for Kukoc to shine playing with the type of superstar Michael Jordan was.

If we look at the age range of 25-30, had both of them been on teams where they were the focus of their respective teams' offense, I could easily see both being even greater stars than they were/are. Kukoc has similar mismatch nightmare skills as a Dirk Nowitzki. And to me, Manu has the same type of ability as a Dwyane Wade. Both superstar talents. Again, hard to answer your question. One distinction for me is that Ginobili in the NBA to me has always been about winning more than stats. That's why I love the guy so much. He's a do-anything-to-win type of player. I don't know if Kukoc had quite that same mentality. I think Toni could have been a borderline superstar but I'm not sure if he was the franchise player whether he'd be one that would help a team to a championship level. With Ginobili, he might not either, but I have full faith that he would have done everything in his power to help his team become one.

[Mel_13]

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some suspicion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

[oski1000]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.


Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

MANU >>> TP

[anakha]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.


Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

MANU >>> TP

Not this shit again.

[DAF86]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

2nd player to do that I bealive, but Manu had a far superior importance on his teams than the other guy that did it before him.


- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.

That doesn't really help his HoF chances.


Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

That can't be proven.


MANU >>> TP

And that's random :lol, you do know that we're arguing Manu vs Toni Kukoc, right?

[JamStone]

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

Great post.

[Old School 44]

This is absolutely a fair assessment.

Personally, it's hard to know who would have had a better NBA career if Toni didn't play with Jordan and Ginobili didn't play with Duncan. But, I do know this. I personally believe it's far easier for Ginobili to have shined playing with an unselfish superstar like Tim Duncan than it was for Kukoc to shine playing with the type of superstar Michael Jordan was.

If we look at the age range of 25-30, had both of them been on teams where they were the focus of their respective teams' offense, I could easily see both being even greater stars than they were/are. Kukoc has similar mismatch nightmare skills as a Dirk Nowitzki. And to me, Manu has the same type of ability as a Dwyane Wade. Both superstar talents. Again, hard to answer your question. One distinction for me is that Ginobili in the NBA to me has always been about winning more than stats. That's why I love the guy so much. He's a do-anything-to-win type of player. I don't know if Kukoc had quite that same mentality. I think Toni could have been a borderline superstar but I'm not sure if he was the franchise player whether he'd be one that would help a team to a championship level. With Ginobili, he might not either, but I have full faith that he would have done everything in his power to help his team become one.

Yep, it's hard to do anything in hindsight. I agree with your comparison, Manu just has that unquestioned passion, leave it all on the court mentality, that I'm not sure Kukoc had.

Not that I want it to happen, but I wonder if Manu could have the same type impact on another team late in his career, similar to Nash moving from the Mavs to the Suns?

[Old School 44]

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

The difference is today, international players as a whole are much better and are more actively recruited by the NBA. As Stern would say the game is more global. How many international players were playing in the NBA during Petrovic playing days compared to today? How many were stars for their respective teams?

The Spurs, although they weren't the first, are somewhat pioneers in pursuing/developing international talent.

[DAF86]

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

I think that with time, Kukoc and other international players that played in the NBA will get to the Hall (if they have the international accolades to get in, of course)

[santymrc]

2nd player to do that I bealive, but Manu had a far superior importance on his teams than the other guy that did it before him.


WTF? Who's the other guy??????????
Kukoc didn't. Hell hope you're not thinking Oberto did it couse he sure didn't (No Euroleague). Scola didnt (no NBA champ).

Who was it???!?!??

I think you're wrong.

[Mel_13]

The difference is today, international players as a whole are much better and are more actively recruited by the NBA. As Stern would say the game is more global. How many international players were playing in the NBA during Petrovic playing days compared to today? How many were stars for their respective teams?

The Spurs, although they weren't the first, are somewhat pioneers in pursuing/developing international talent.

All true. Now we see international players like Dirk who will go into the HOF based almost entirely on their NBA careers. It will be interesting to see which committee puts Dirk's name forward, the International Committee based on country of origin or the North American Committee based on where his HOF qualifying achievements took place.

My point was that no player with a hybrid international/NBA resume is yet enshrined and that the International Committee has had extremely limited success in advancing the candidacies of male international players in general.

Those two facts could work against Manu.

[santymrc]

All true. Now we see international players like Dirk who will go into the HOF based almost entirely on their NBA careers. It will be interesting to see which committee puts Dirk's name forward, the International Committee based on country of origin or the North American Committee based on where his HOF qualifying achievements took place.

My point was that no player with a hybrid international/NBA resume is yet enshrined and that the International Committee has had extremely limited success in advancing the candidacies of male international players in general.

Those two facts could work against Manu.

Dirk did next to nothing outside the NBA. Never got a title but had an MVP, nothing more BUT nothing less tho.
He'll get there eventually (hof) but his chances imo are lower than Manu's except he wins something else.

[Mel_13]

Dirk did next to nothing outside the NBA. Never got a title but had an MVP, nothing more BUT nothing less tho.
He'll get there eventually (hof) but his chances imo are lower than Manu's except he wins something else.

Be serious.

Dirk's NBA career makes him an absolute lock.

[santymrc]

Be serious.

Dirk's NBA career makes him an absolute lock.

He's not Pat. Ewing, Barkley etc. Guys that never won a Champ but got what they needed to get there. So, he could be overlooked for more years than Manu. I do believe he's had a career worth of it, but, never done anything that spectacular that makes you turn your head toward him (except that CHOKE against GSW).
Does T-Mac belongs to the HOF? I seriously doubt it.

[Mel_13]

He's not Pat. Ewing, Barkley etc. Guys that never won a Champ but got what they needed to get there. So, he could be overlooked for more years than Manu. I do believe he's had a career worth of it, but, never done anything that spectacular that makes you turn your head toward him (except that CHOKE against GSW).

Good grief.

9-time All-Star
9-time All-NBA
MVP

Find me anyone with those credentials NOT in the HOF.

[JamStone]

There isn't an NBA League MVP winner who is eligible who isn't in the HOF.

Winning a League MVP is like a getting keys handed to you to the HOF.

[Cane]

Dirk's a lock. 7' shooters with that kind of touch and MVP qualities deserve their recognition.

Manu isn't as much of a lock as Dirk but he'll likely get in. No other player really comes close to the impact and achievements he's made. Pretty impressive that he and Argentina won a gold.

[santymrc]

Good grief.

9-time All-Star
9-time All-NBA
MVP

Find me anyone with those credentials NOT in the HOF.

1st, I'm not telling you he doesnt deserve to be in the HOF. He does, just said he might be overlooked more than Manu.

2nd All-Star doesnt mean your in the HOF. That's fans voting. Yao can make the all-star 20 years in a row (china's fan base) and dont get into the HOF.

[Mel_13]

1st, I'm not telling you he doesnt deserve to be in the HOF. He does, just said he might be overlooked more than Manu.


Well, I suppose we won't know until five years after retirement. So, in that sense it is a matter of opinion.

I believe Dirk goes in the first year he is eligible. I don't think much of an argument can be made against that proposition. There are no examples of players with his credentials that ARE NOT in the HOF.

I believe Manu belongs in the HOF, but its much easier for me to see where he would have to wait. There are no examples of players with a hybrid resume like Manu that ARE in the HOF.

[santymrc]

Well, I suppose we won't know until five years after retirement. So, in that sense it is a matter of opinion.

I believe Dirk goes in the first year he is eligible. I don't think much of an argument can be made against that proposition. There are no examples of players with his credentials that ARE NOT in the HOF.

I believe Manu belongs in the HOF, but its much easier for me to see where he would have to wait. There are no examples of players with a hybrid resume like Manu that ARE in the HOF.

Well it depends in who retires that year. It's a possibility and as you said, time will tell. For now, I take TD over anyone when he decides to retire. Same goes for KB, Shaq. So time will tell.

[Mel_13]

Well it depends in who retires that year. It's a possibility and as you said, time will tell. For now, I take TD over anyone when he decides to retire. Same goes for KB, Shaq. So time will tell.

Time will tell.

Other players retiring the same year shouldn't affect Dirk's chances of going in on the first year of eligibility. Look at this year's inductees. Jordan, Robinson, and Stockton all retired in 2003. All went in on the first ballot. There's no particular limit or quota for each year.

[TMTTRIO]

Whether he gets in or not he at least has been recognized as one of the 50 Greatest contributors in Euroleague (which tells me that if he got in he would be recognized mainly for the international accomplishments). Although it's funny to also see D'Antoni get recognized as a player :lol.

http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/main

[himat]

I think he won't make it. If he does it would be after a long time. Sorry to say it guys but there are some great player who have not been recognized for a long time who and some who are still not recognized as of today.

So to answer the thread. Is Manu a hof? Maybe yes, but will he get in? In my opinion he won't, and if he does, it will be after a long time.

[kace]

Manu will definitely get in because every coach and announcer when they talk about the Spurs, know that Manu is the X factor for team. His number might not show it, but everyone knows now how dangerous a healthy Manu is.

yep. they showed their love and high consideration for manu by choosing him so often for the ASG.

[exstatic]

I think he won't make it. If he does it would be after a long time. Sorry to say it guys but there are some great player who have not been recognized for a long time who and some who are still not recognized as of today.

So to answer the thread. Is Manu a hof? Maybe yes, but will he get in? In my opinion he won't, and if he does, it will be after a long time.

Still butthurt from the 2005 Finals?

Have you even checked out Petrovic's quals? His Euroleague/FIBA is about the same, and his NBA is less and he's in the hall. He died in 1993, which made him eligible in 1998, and he was voted in in 2002. My guess is that Manu also goes in somewhere in the first 5 years of his eligibility, or between 5 and 10 years after his retirement.

[Spursone]

I think he may not have enough numbers in the end, but he is definitely one of the most unique and memmorable international players of all time. He is limited by his injuries, I don't see him lasting long. What is a no brainer is his number suspended from the rafters of the ATT center.

GO MANU GO!

[coachmac87]

I think Manu Ginobili is a HOF. Maybe not by "NBA" standards but he has 3 rings, a gold medal and is possibly one of the top 5 international players to ever play in the league. He shouldve won the MVP of the 05 Finals, and if he actually did that I think he is a first ballot.

[JamStone]

It's hard to be selected for a All-star game averaging only 15 points per game and coming off the bench?

The All-star game is an absolute joke. Worthy players are always left out of it. Don't sound like a moron!

I'm more in between on that contention. It's become much more of a joke in recent years. But it's still mostly about the fan selections on starters. Coaches still choose the other 7 players who are reserves. And in cases of injury, you can hate him all you want but, Stern generally selects deserving replacements. Sure, it's still a stats driven honor, but that's how things are in pro sports. That's life.

All star selections sometimes are a joke. I don't think it's an absolute though. And I do think it's something the HOF would look at. And, usually jokes of all star selections happen once or twice with a player. You can have a rare exception like Yao or Iverson whose fan followings make them exceptions. But for the most part, it balances out. I don't think ASG selections are an absolute joke.

[Sportstudi]

Yes, IMHO, Manu is a Hall of Famer. No other player has won NBA, Euroleague, World Championships and Olympics.


Bill Bradley says hi. Not meaning that I want to compare it completely due to the different time Bradley played the game, but during his career he won these titles above as well.

[santymrc]

Bill Bradley says hi. Not meaning that I want to compare it completely due to the different time Bradley played the game, but during his career he won these titles above as well.

Not against a Dream Team...
Not a World Championship FIBA (Manu didnt won one either). But accolades are very similar (Manu has way more in MVPs in almost every international tournament he played).
If this guy is a HOF, Manu's a lock.

[BillMc]

Manu is a lock to get in. Argentina's winning of the Gold Medal in the Olympics is the biggest international event of the last 20 years in basketball. Manu was the heart and soul of that team, and the Olympic MVP. Throw in the Bronze medal, all his success in the Euro league and the International committee of the HOF will make sure he gets in. AND when they can supplement their argument by saying "Oh, yes, and in the NBA he won 3+ titles, 6th Man of the Year, was an All-star and possibly the third best 2 guard of the decade (Behind Kobe and D-wade) Note, I didn't mention AI." Manu's a lock, he's won in every league he's ever played in (unlike AI and T-Mac, so he IS the third best 2 guard of the 00's) and it wouldn't surprise me if he's a first year inductee.

I just hope we re-sign him.

[ezau]

He is in.

[Charles Sappa]

Manu is a lock to get in. Argentina's winning of the Gold Medal in the Olympics is the biggest international event of the last 20 years in basketball. Manu was the heart and soul of that team, and the Olympic MVP. Throw in the Bronze medal, all his success in the Euro league and the International committee of the HOF will make sure he gets in. AND when they can supplement their argument by saying "Oh, yes, and in the NBA he won 3+ titles, 6th Man of the Year, was an All-star and possibly the third best 2 guard of the decade (Behind Kobe and D-wade) Note, I didn't mention AI." Manu's a lock, he's won in every league he's ever played in (unlike AI and T-Mac, so he IS the third best 2 guard of the 00's) and it wouldn't surprise me if he's a first year inductee.

I just hope we re-sign him.

+1

An Example, Kevin McHale never won the MVP of the finals, has fewer titles than Manu, but Kevin is in the Hall of Fame

[Mel_13]

An Example, Kevin McHale never won the MVP of the finals, has fewer titles than Manu, but Kevin is in the Hall of Fame

Really bad example. McHale's NBA resume far exceeds Manu's. It's not even close.

McHale had one important thing in common with Manu. He cared much more about winning than individual stats or even his own health.

[smeagol]

Really bad example. McHale's NBA resume far exceeds Manu's. It's not even close..

Only if you think NBA accomplishments matter and international ones don't.

[mookie2001]

this was a thread like 3 years ago? i guess we're resetting for the gray posters

he will make the hall of fame




international accomplishments do not matter, olympics should so he is in

nobody gives a shit if you made italiano liga II MVP 2000, except those idiots who put in it their sig

i have no problem with him in the hall of fame, as long as people realize its not the nba hall of fame and skin color will still help you get "international" respect in 2010 and beyond

[exstatic]

Bill Bradley says hi. Not meaning that I want to compare it completely due to the different time Bradley played the game, but during his career he won these titles above as well.

...and he's in the HOF.

Case closed.

[Charles Sappa]

nobody gives a shit if you made italiano liga II MVP 2000, except those idiots who put in it their sig There was only one true Dream Team, Barcelona 92, since then, the Basket of USA is not the best in the world in absolute. The NBA has opened the doors and let the other countries to rise their level. It ended up winning games by 30 points. The final against Spain was a very even

Italy was sub-Olympic champion in 2004 ahead of USA. The Kinder Bologna is one of the biggest teams in Europe, you can not disregard that.

[mookie2001]

that wasnt even the original dream team though

olympics are one thing, euro ball is another


EURO ball?, more people care about the nascar truck series

[jason54858]

No, if Mark Aguire, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmand arent hall of famers then Manu is definitly not one.

[Bukefal]

Ive said this in the NBA forum too. Manu is a great player and had so much success in his career. I will probably get a whole wave of criticism and hate for saying this by some spurs fans but Manu is overrated. By Spurs fans, but also by others.

Don't get me wrong, im not saying he isnt a great player, because he is But there are so many who have sunglasses on when its about manu, it's like he is god. He is very popular among spurs fans, that has to do with it, some maybe get carried away because of that. He is great, but not that great how many make him.

And no, I don't hate him, nor am I French.

[Bukefal]

No, if Mark Aguire, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmand arent hall of famers then Manu is definitly not one.

:wow He should be a HOF

[santymrc]

Ive said this in the NBA forum too. Manu is a great player and had so much success in his career. I will probably get a whole wave of criticism and hate for saying this by some spurs fans but Manu is overrated. By Spurs fans, but also by others.

Don't get me wrong, im not saying he isnt a great player, because he is But there are so many who have sunglasses on when its about manu, it's like he is god. He is very popular among spurs fans, that has to do with it, some maybe get carried away because of that. He is great, but not that great how many make him.

And no, I don't hate him, nor am I French.

I don't agree with you. Manu's not overrated by SA fans (some does), and, he's usually underrated by the entire league (almost everyone does), so I don't get your point.
Besides, Lakers fans overrate KB when they state "He's better than MJ", same happens with all stars in their team, getting props and such couse they love him. It doesn't happen only couse its Manu and its SA.

P.S You don't need to say you're not French, lot of frenchs here dont give hate to Manu (some does).

[kace]

this was a thread like 3 years ago? i guess we're resetting for the gray posters


are you serious ? we have this thread three times a year for several years now. and every time, it goes at least to ten pages.

[santymrc]

are you serious ? we have this thread three times a year for several years now. and every time, it goes at least to ten pages.

It has to mean something right?

^^
:toast

[kace]

It has to mean something right?

^^
:toast

right. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/6bierejo/IMG/branlette.gif

[smeagol]

EURO ball?, more people care about the nascar truck series

Most people are idiots . . .

[Charles Sappa]

most people are idiots . . .

+1