Better Player : D-Wade or Clyde Drexler

[PGDynasty24]

I was arguing with my friend about this. I've seen Clyde play and he was a fantastic player and a ridiculous athlete. But D-wade is far more skilled and a better playmaker than Drexler was. What do you guys think?

[lefty]

Drexler

He can do the catch and behind the back pass on the break without dribbling the ball


Or traveling



Ok Wade?



Wade is a better shooter though




But Clyde was a freaking athlete




I dont know too difficult

[Kai]

Clyde. The guy could walk on air

[JamStone]

Not necessarily fair with Wade only being 6 1/2 seasons into his career. That's probably only about half of his career. I agree with lefty. This is actually a pretty tough call. Drexler was a freak athlete just like Wade. And he was probably a smoother player that Dwyane. Wade is a little more explosive but it's actually close. By the end of Wade's career, i could see them both being viewed similarly. But even if Wade doesn't get any more individual accolades the rest of his career, he'll still have that NBA Finals MVP that probably trumps Drexler's best individual award. If you look at both of their best individual seasons, they're actually pretty similar numbers. I'd go with Wade with that 2006 Finals run as the trump card. But I think it's pretty close right now. Wade can have a spectacular second half to his career to make it an easier decision, but right now, it's pretty close.

[oh crap]

wade. by miles. the glide was effective but was not on dwayne's level.

[ChrisRichards]

Scoring-Wade
Rebounding-Wade
Ballhandling- Wade
Playmaking-Wade
NBA Finals MVP- Wade


Come on. No offense to the great Clyde Drexler, but he is nowhere near Wade as a player. Legacy wise then its close but skills wise Wade wins in a landslide.

[Dunc n Dave]

DWade and Drexler are eerily similar...

Late 80's and early 90's Clyde was an unbelievable athlete. He could get to the rim at will. His one glaring weakness was his inconsistency shooting the 3. His 2 best seasons were 87-88 and 88-89 where he averaged over 27ppg both years, shooting 50% (at shooting guard) 7 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2.5 steals, and around .6 blocks. His assist numbers improved to nearly 7 per game as the years went on.

Reads just like Dwade even down to the 3pter being his one glaring weakness. Although Drexler didn't have injury issues until his 9th year in the league, and that was during a much rougher era in the NBA where guys who went hard to the rim like Drexler paid the price for it getting mugged in the process.

At this point Drexler is my pick, but if Wade gets back to the Finals again in his career I will probably change my mind.

[Bob Lanier]

Playmaking-Wade
No. This is a push.

Rebounding-Wade
Hell no.

Wade wins in a landslide.
Again, no.

I'd take Wade for the same reasons Jamstone articulated, but it's not a "landslide." Come on. These are two of the most similar star players in the history of basketball.

[DxB]

Gay debate. Wade all the way

[ffadicted]

Rebounding-Wade

Nigga please


Come on. No offense to the great Clyde Drexler, but he is nowhere near Wade as a player. Legacy wise then its close but skills wise Wade wins in a landslide.

So much blind, cock-in-your-mouth homerism right here, I don't care who you pick neither wins by a landslide

[tlongII]

I'll go with Clyde. Of course I'm biased though. I had season tix for all of his years with the Blazers.

[baseline bum]

Wade

[DBryant88]

If Wade continues his level of play then at the end of his career Wade. But for now I have to say Drexler

[Killakobe81]

Not necessarily fair with Wade only being 6 1/2 seasons into his career. That's probably only about half of his career. I agree with lefty. This is actually a pretty tough call. Drexler was a freak athlete just like Wade. And he was probably a smoother player that Dwyane. Wade is a little more explosive but it's actually close. By the end of Wade's career, i could see them both being viewed similarly. But even if Wade doesn't get any more individual accolades the rest of his career, he'll still have that NBA Finals MVP that probably trumps Drexler's best individual award. If you look at both of their best individual seasons, they're actually pretty similar numbers. I'd go with Wade with that 2006 Finals run as the trump card. But I think it's pretty close right now. Wade can have a spectacular second half to his career to make it an easier decision, but right now, it's pretty close.

I agree. Drexler was probably underrated because the "gap" between him and Mj was pretty wide. But you put drexler vs the other great 2 guards of the past 20 years (kobe, Miller Wade) and maybe only kobe is definitively better ...

but Like jamstone says here the Finals run means a lot to me.
Drexler got his ring as the secondary star on a good Rockets team that had won the year before wITHOUT him. So Wade gets the nod there.

Drexler played on some pretty talented teams that was beaten soundly by a great Pistons squad in the early 90's but ALSO upset by the Lakers in 91 by an inferior Lakers squad ...when they were considered the best team in the NBA. and should of had back to back to back finals appearances instead of the only 2 they have had since winning it all in '77.

Fair or not that series loss was on Clyde ...the Lakers that year was running on fumes and the will of Magic who was on the tail end of his prime. i like Clyde but think he lacked that alpha dog gene needed to carry a team to a title ...

But as i wa sposting this clyde though was probaly one of the best secondary stars on a title team in thh past 20 years along with kobe, Scottie, Kg, or Pierce (depending on view), Manu. Grea t player.

Wade is a bigger "star" but as many have said should only be halfway through his career ...

[Killakobe81]

DWade and Drexler are eerily similar...

Late 80's and early 90's Clyde was an unbelievable athlete. He could get to the rim at will. His one glaring weakness was his inconsistency shooting the 3. His 2 best seasons were 87-88 and 88-89 where he averaged over 27ppg both years, shooting 50% (at shooting guard) 7 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2.5 steals, and around .6 blocks. His assist numbers improved to nearly 7 per game as the years went on.

Reads just like Dwade even down to the 3pter being his one glaring weakness. Although Drexler didn't have injury issues until his 9th year in the league, and that was during a much rougher era in the NBA where guys who went hard to the rim like Drexler paid the price for it getting mugged in the process.

At this point Drexler is my pick, but if Wade gets back to the Finals again in his career I will probably change my mind.

agree with this as well ...good post.

[ambchang]

Wade was more a product of the rule changes that catered to opening up perimeter offense and TV ratings. Skill-wise, side by side, Drexler wins.

It's not a coincident that we are seeing perimeter players dominating today's game, while the big man has dominated for the 50 years before that.

[lil_penny]

Don't let me being a fan of portland make you think I'm being biased on this one, but wade is a extremely good ball player. But drexler is the better of the two as of now.. like LL said wade gets him on the whistles and that's bout it.. I see no way wade would play a full season with the abuse he would be getting trying to manuever in the lane to the basket... ok maybe I'm a little biased.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wade was more a product of the rule changes that catered to opening up perimeter offense and TV ratings. Skill-wise, side by side, Drexler wins.

It's not a coincident that we are seeing perimeter players dominating today's game, while the big man has dominated for the 50 years before that.


This. Different story with Wade if he had to deal with hand checks and physical perimeter defense that was allowed before Stern decided to turn the NBA into a shooting guard's league. The fact Wade averages 1 more free throw attempted per game than Jordan did just shows how soft the league has gotten on wings.

[sonic21]

Drexler was more versatile. He could play 3 different positions(pg,sg and sf) at an all star level.

Wade's peak is/will be better.

It's really close.

[ChrisRichards]

No. This is a push..
Its not a push Bob. Wade is a better playmaker than Clyde. Drexler was your typical shooting guard of the 90s. He was a good passer surrounded by great teammates, so he's not necessarily a great playmaker. Ive seen Clyde play in his prime, and i was a huge fan of his game in the 90's and I would say with conviction that Wade's playmaking abilities are above and beyond better than Drexler.

I would say that rebounding is a push. They were both pretty efficient rebounder as a guard.


Ive always viewed Drexler as a talented guard that never had much success as the 1st option. IMO, Wade seperates himself from Drexler in that regards due to the fact that Wade has won a title as the undisputed 1st option while logging in the best PER among guards in NBA history not named Michael Jordan. In the regular season and playoffs btw.



Just look at their career advanced statistics as well, Wade easily trumps Drexler in that category. Like I said, if we are to include their legacies as of this moment then Drexler's career levels things out, but in terms of pure skills, Wade is the better player than Clyde. Wade is in the same breath as Kobe, now if you guys think Kobe, Wade and Clyde are all even in that sense, then I dont have a porblem with that.

[ChrisRichards]

Wade was more a product of the rule changes that catered to opening up perimeter offense and TV ratings. Skill-wise, side by side, Drexler wins.

It's not a coincident that we are seeing perimeter players dominating today's game, while the big man has dominated for the 50 years before that.
You can say that to every perimter player in this era and diminish their greatness (Kobe, Lebron, Durant) that's just foolish. All of those players would dominate any era given the chance. They were faster, quicker, stronger and much more explosive than any perimiter player in the 90's.

[poop]

this is actually as close as it gets. wade is pretty much this generations version of drexler.
id MAYBE give the SLIGHT edge to wade for MAYBE having better leadership and playmaking skills.

[ambchang]

You can say that to every perimter player in this era and diminish their greatness (Kobe, Lebron, Durant) that's just foolish. All of those players would dominate any era given the chance. They were faster, quicker, stronger and much more explosive than any perimiter player in the 90's.

Yes, I am saying that with regards to every single perimeter player who are playing today, which is why I think Kobe and Durant are both wildly overrated in the context of their historical standings. Lebron is a different animal, as his physical abilities would just allow him to plough through his defender no matter what era he plays in.

And yes, I believe Wade, Kobe and Durant can still play very well in the late 80s, just no average 30 ppg year in and year out.

[JamStone]

Its not a push Bob. Wade is a better playmaker than Clyde. Drexler was your typical shooting guard of the 90s. He was a good passer surrounded by great teammates, so he's not necessarily a great playmaker. Ive seen Clyde play in his prime, and i was a huge fan of his game in the 90's and I would say with conviction that Wade's playmaking abilities are above and beyond better than Drexler.

This is simply misinformation. Drexler was in no way your typical shooting guard in the 90s when it came to play-making. I think some people forget that he was actually quite skilled in play-making and passing. Look at the other better 2-guards in the 80s and early 90s, George Gervin, Rolando Blackman, Ron Harper, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Reggie Miller... none of those guys were better than 4-5 APG type of guards. Drexler routinely put up 6+ APG seasons. He went a full season averaging 8 APG. That's not typical for the 90s or for any era for a shooting guard.

The main difference between Drexler as a play-maker and Dwyane Wade as a play-maker is that Drexler eventually got a true point guard in Terry Porter that ended up taking much of that responsibility while Wade continues to act and always has acted since midway through his rookie year as the main facilitator for the Heat. Wade even brings up the ball much of the time. Drexler relinquished quite a bit play-making responsibility to Porter, and Drexler still averaged around 5 APG when that happened.

Wade probably has a more natural ability to be a play-maker because he has a better handle and probably has better vision, but don't sell Drexler short when it comes to play-making and passing. It's certainly not a landslide.



I would say that rebounding is a push. They were both pretty efficient rebounder as a guard.

For someone who considered it a landslide in play-making for Wade, this is a ridiculous statement. Drexler was by far a superior rebounder. Bigger, taller, longer, and probably just as athletic. Drexler was the better rebounder and the stats support that assertion. It's not even arguable. Now, would you like to take into consideration that Wade is shorter and that Drexler sometimes would slide down to small forward? Sure, but you're entering into a conversation of excuses and reasons why Drexler was better. He still was the better rebounder.



Ive always viewed Drexler as a talented guard that never had much success as the 1st option. IMO, Wade seperates himself from Drexler in that regards due to the fact that Wade has won a title as the undisputed 1st option while logging in the best PER among guards in NBA history not named Michael Jordan. In the regular season and playoffs btw.

Here's where history is lost. Drexler as the main option led his Blazers to two NBA Finals before he went on to win one in Houston with Hakeem. I would agree and most people would that Wade's 2006 title run shows a peak in careers that probably gives Wade an edge. But it's pretty silly to suggest Drexler didn't have much success as the main option. Drexler was the reason the Blazers were contenders for many years in the late 80s and early 90s. As the main option, he had as much success as any other shooting guard in his era after Michael Jordan. He didn't have the ultimate success. But to say he didn't have much success is pretty silly.




Just look at their career advanced statistics as well, Wade easily trumps Drexler in that category. Like I said, if we are to include their legacies as of this moment then Drexler's career levels things out, but in terms of pure skills, Wade is the better player than Clyde. Wade is in the same breath as Kobe, now if you guys think Kobe, Wade and Clyde are all even in that sense, then I dont have a porblem with that.

Is there a reason why you go to advanced stats and skip the actual stats that are actually similar? Wade does more for his teams than Drexler had to do for his. That's not debatable. And Wade has yet to his the late part of his career where decline brings down stats. Drexler never missed the playoffs in Portland. Never had a what 15 win season like Wade did as the main option to the team. Drexler never had the lows in his career Wade already has had.

In terms of pure skill, it's still close. In terms of overall career, they're right around the same level. With a few more seasons, Wade could easily separate himself. But, if Wade has more seasons like the last two where he puts up nice, pretty numbers but his teams is mediocre to bad and are lottery teams or first round exit playoff teams, he'll actually look more like Clyde, only with a higher peak in his career with that 2006 title. Neither Wade or Clyde is on Kobe's level at the moment. Wade can get there. He's not there. Multiple champion. League MVP. Finals MVP. Perennial all NBA and all NBA defensive. Hate or envy all you want, Wade is not at that level yet.

[Kobe Molested Me]

Still no poll?

[jacobdrj]

Interesting and intriguing comparison. Kudos.
Wade is taking advantage of the rules intended to make scoring for him easier, but few other guards are willing to take that kind of punishment in the 1st place.

When all is said and done Wade will not be known as the next, Jordan, Kobe, or Magic. He will be known as the 1st Dwayne Wade, and other players are going to be compared to him for the next 50 years.

[ChrisRichards]

This is simply misinformation. Drexler was in no way your typical shooting guard in the 90s when it came to play-making. I think some people forget that he was actually quite skilled in play-making and passing. Look at the other better 2-guards in the 80s and early 90s, George Gervin, Rolando Blackman, Ron Harper, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Reggie Miller... none of those guys were better than 4-5 APG type of guards. Drexler routinely put up 6+ APG seasons. He went a full season averaging 8 APG. That's not typical for the 90s or for any era for a shooting guard. .


Horrible examples. Ron Harper and Mitch Richmond were your typical one dimensional scoring guards in their primes. They have no other objective but to put the ball in the basket. so is Reggie Miller. And what's surprising is during the first half of the 90's, Harper and Drexlers APG average were not that different. (Diff of -1 APG). Drexler is not really a cut above the rest as you like to put it. Also that season where he averaged 8 APG btw is not in the 90's. It was back in the 80's.


To sum it all, Drexler always had a great supporting cast coached by offensive genius Rick Adelman. Averaging 6 APG in that system while having a team high in Usage rate is something almost any All star caliber SG can achieve given the opportunity.




The main difference between Drexler as a play-maker and Dwyane Wade as a play-maker is that Drexler eventually got a true point guard in Terry Porter that ended up taking much of that responsibility .

:lol and the Heat did'nt had one? How about two? Jason Williams and Gary Payton logged 60.5 minutes a game in 05-06. Both dished out a combined 8.1 APG, the same year Wade had a team high 6.7 APG.


And good thing you brought up Porter. Terry's APG numbers went down from 10.1, 9.5 all the way to 5.2 because Drexler was in possession of the ball a lot of times.


Lastly, Wade is a career 6.7 APG player. Clyde is at 5.6. Numbers favors way, any way you twist it.





For someone who considered it a landslide in play-making for Wade, this is a ridiculous statement. Drexler was by far a superior rebounder. Bigger, taller, longer, and probably just as athletic...
What does size have to do with this? You're seriously digging a hole for yourself Jamstoned. Landslide reference was mainly due to Wade's dominance when healthy. Wade was considered a Top 1-3 player for 2 years. Drexler never reached that level. Clyde was a Top 10 player at best.





Drexler was the better rebounder and the stats support that assertion. It's not even arguable. Now, would you like to take into consideration that Wade is shorter and that Drexler sometimes would slide down to small forward? Sure, but you're entering into a conversation of excuses and reasons why Drexler was better. He still was the better rebounder....
Id give Drexler the tiniest and slightest edge on rebounding. But if you're 6'7, 6.1 RPG is not something you should brag to a smaller competition. Wade is a phenomenal rebounder for his size, in terms of ability, Wade maximizes more in that regards compared to Drexler.




Here's where history is lost. Drexler as the main option led his Blazers to two NBA Finals before he went on to win one in Houston with Hakeem.
Two failures does'nt make it right. Without riding Hakeems cottails, Drexler should be joining Malone, Stockton, Ewing and Barkley in the loser corner.



I would agree and most people would that Wade's 2006 title run shows a peak in careers that probably gives Wade an edge. But it's pretty silly to suggest Drexler didn't have much success as the main option..

He did'nt have any success in the grandest scheme of things. Period. Lebron is being penalized for the same thing. Any player in that position does'nt get a pass just because they reach a final.



Drexler was the reason the Blazers were contenders for many years in the late 80s and early 90s. As the main option, he had as much success as any other shooting guard in his era after Michael Jordan. He didn't have the ultimate success. But to say he didn't have much success is pretty silly...

HOF'er have different standards than All Star players. These legendary Icons were expected to win a title as the main guy. Anything less is a failure. See Malone, Barkley, Ewing and Stockton. All great players but none will ever garner the same respect given to their championship winning peers.





Is there a reason why you go to advanced stats and skip the actual stats that are actually similar? ..
Advance stats owns. Plain and simple. Since we are speaking in reference to offensive efficiency, PER, TS, EFG, W/S. Wade is just a better subject than Drexler.


At this point, no one has surpassed Wade's NBA Finals performance in terms of efficiency. When has Drexler done similar to this?


Dwyane Wade Mia 200634.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8PPG: 34.7
APG: 7.8
RPG: 3.8
SPG: 2.7
PER: 33.8*

History high***


It's hard to overstate how awesome Wade was in leading the Heat to their lone championship, particularly in the final four games when Miami rallied from a 2-0 deficit to stun the Mavs.



Drexler never missed the playoffs in Portland. Never had a what 15 win season like Wade did as the main option to the team. Drexler never had the lows in his career Wade already has had..

Season. Ending. Injury. You cant penalize a player when he's on street clothes child.




In terms of pure skill, it's still close. In terms of overall career, they're right around the same level. With a few more seasons, Wade could easily separate himself. But, if Wade has more seasons like the last two where he puts up nice, pretty numbers but his teams is mediocre to bad and are lottery teams or first round exit playoff teams, he'll actually look more like Clyde, only with a higher peak in his career with that 2006 title. Neither Wade or Clyde is on Kobe's level at the moment. Wade can get there. He's not there. Multiple champion. League MVP. Finals MVP. Perennial all NBA and all NBA defensive. Hate or envy all you want, Wade is not at that level yet.
Im not hating and I dont need to envy. Wade will get there, its not a matter of if but a matter of how many more. This offseason will redeem Wade and put him back on the top 2-3 player debate.

[Killakobe81]

WAde is great but slightly overrated based on his aMAZING Finals run ...

Drexler is VASTLY underrated due to not being able to lead his Blazers squads to a title ...

Wade has been the 2nd best 2 guard to Kobe much like Drexler was to Jordan. Difference is wade is a lot closer to Kobe (and some would argue he at points been the better player) While no sane peson would argue Drexler>Jordan.

TO me Drexler and Wade are similar but i give a slight edge to Wade ...those that claim Wade is >>>>>>>>>> Drexler or that it's a simple argument are short-sighted.
Drexler was a great player as well.

[ambchang]

Seems like people just forgot how great Drexler was at his peak.

He was the 2nd best player in 91-92, right behind Jordan, averaged 27/6/7 over his two year peak, and still throwing in 21/4.5/7 as the 2nd option on a championship when he was past his prime.

He finished #5 in MVP voting in 1988, #6 in 1991, and #2 in 1992 against players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone and Robinson.

Wade, as great as he is, finished in the top 6 once in his career #3 last year.

[in2deep]

with ref's help Wade. Without ref's help, Glyde

[stretch]

give me wade

[ChrisRichards]

Seems like people just forgot how great Drexler was at his peak.

He was the 2nd best player in 91-92, right behind Jordan, averaged 27/6/7 over his two year peak, and still throwing in 21/4.5/7 as the 2nd option on a championship when he was past his prime.

He finished #5 in MVP voting in 1988, #6 in 1991, and #2 in 1992 against players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone and Robinson.

Wade, as great as he is, finished in the top 6 once in his career #3 last year.
How is Drexler the second best player next to Jordan in 91-92 when he himself started to decline in terms of offensive production? He had a career low in points average, and the other areas of his game did'nt really shine in the process. Maybe his wisdom, but you can't measure that.


David Robinson was a better plater than Drexler in 91-92, so I dont know where you based your information.

[stretch]

Seems like people just forgot how great Drexler was at his peak.

He was the 2nd best player in 91-92, right behind Jordan, averaged 27/6/7 over his two year peak, and still throwing in 21/4.5/7 as the 2nd option on a championship when he was past his prime.

He finished #5 in MVP voting in 1988, #6 in 1991, and #2 in 1992 against players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone and Robinson.

Wade, as great as he is, finished in the top 6 once in his career #3 last year.

terrible comparison

1st off, clyde was "second to jordan" as you suggest, because there was no one even on MJs plateau (skill and production-wise) at that time. on the other hand, there are a number of GREAT players that skill and production-wise, are very comparable to jordan, and its even arguable that there are several players that are more skilled and gifted than MJ right now.

2nd, Wade hasnt finished his career yet. comparing the amount of times that he finished top in MVP voting is retarded at this point. especially when there are more elite swingman-type players in the league.

3rd, Wade has had an absolutely AWFUL team, while Clyde consistently had a VERY good team. many people consider those Portland teams to be among the best teams to never win a title, and superior to some who actually DID win titles.

[stretch]

Wade isnt just heads and tails better than Clyde, i'm not saying that at all. But if I had to choose between building a team around either one of them, I'm taking Wade all day long.

[ChrisRichards]

terrible comparison

1st off, clyde was "second to jordan" as you suggest, because there was no one even on MJs plateau (skill and production-wise) at that time. on the other hand, there are a number of GREAT players that skill and production-wise, are very comparable to jordan, and its even arguable that there are several players that are more skilled and gifted than MJ right now.

2nd, Wade hasnt finished his career yet. comparing the amount of times that he finished top in MVP voting is retarded at this point. especially when there are more elite swingman-type players in the league.

3rd, Wade has had an absolutely AWFUL team, while Clyde consistently had a VERY good team. many people consider those Portland teams to be among the best teams to never win a title, and superior to some who actually DID win titles.

Thank you. All great points stretch.



I would also like to add that finishing in the MVP votes to prove greatness is a worthless debate. Kobe Bryant was ranked as the best if not the second best player in the league for a couple of years before winning his MVP and he rarely finished in the Top 3 MVP votes. Just look at Kobe's 2005-2006 season.

[JamStone]

Horrible examples. Ron Harper and Mitch Richmond were your typical one dimensional scoring guards in their primes. They have no other objective but to put the ball in the basket. so is Reggie Miller. And what's surprising is during the first half of the 90's, Harper and Drexlers APG average were not that different. (Diff of -1 APG). Drexler is not really a cut above the rest as you like to put it. Also that season where he averaged 8 APG btw is not in the 90's. It was back in the 80's.

Those were typical shooting guards, even in the 90s. 90s SGs with the exception of Jordan were one dimensional scorers. That's what the typical SG was in the 90s. If not, tell me who were "typical" SGs in the 90s? Look at all of those 90s SGs, other than Jordan, who were better play-makers than Clyde?

Ron Harper actually was one of the few SGs in that era who was a pretty good play-maker himself. He's closer to Drexler than the "typical" 90s SG in terms of play-making. Since you're so adamant about it being in the 90s, let's look at their respective APG in the 90s:

Drexler/Harper APG

90-91: 6.0/5.4
91-92: 6.7/5.1
92-93: 5.7/4.5
93-94: 4.9/4.6
94:95: 4.8/2.0
95-96: 5.8/2.6
96-97: 5.7/2.5
97-98: 5.5/2.9

Similar? Ok, when Harper was still a main option, sure. Drexler was still better. And if you want to talk about 90s SGs, then you take into consideration Harper's assist numbers in Chicago as well. Drexler was a better play-maker throughout the 90s. And, Harper is the one example outside Jordan and Drexler you have as coming close to being a good play-maker for a SG. Not so typical if those are the only three SGs in the 90s who were good play-makers.



To sum it all, Drexler always had a great supporting cast coached by offensive genius Rick Adelman. Averaging 6 APG in that system while having a team high in Usage rate is something almost any All star caliber SG can achieve given the opportunity.

Aren't you one to argue one of the reasons LeBron is better than Kobe is because Kobe has more talent on his team? Now that it works against your favor, you flip that argument? Please. It's not Drexler's fault Pat Riley hasn't put enough talent around Wade. And it's not like Drexler had HOFers or even perennial all stars on those Portland teams. He had some good teammates but that's not the reason he was a good play-maker.




:lol and the Heat did'nt had one? How about two? Jason Williams and Gary Payton logged 60.5 minutes a game in 05-06. Both dished out a combined 8.1 APG, the same year Wade had a team high 6.7 APG.

Please. They combined for 8.1 APG. Drexler was still averaging 5-6 APG with Terry Porter averaging 9-10 APG by himself. Even when J-Will and GP were the PGs on the Heat, Wade had the basketball in his hands the majority of the time and he intiated and facilitated the offense most of the time. Most good players who have the ball in their hands as much as Wade does are capable of having good assist totals. Clyde did it while still largely playing off the ball.



And good thing you brought up Porter. Terry's APG numbers went down from 10.1, 9.5 all the way to 5.2 because Drexler was in possession of the ball a lot of times.

It really is a good thing I brought up Terry Porter. But it is not a good thing that you made this argument because it's predicated on a fallacy. The season Porter's APG fell to 5.2, it wasn't because Drexler was given the ball more to create. Or did you choose to ignore the fact that Rod Strickland averaged 7.2 APG that season and Adelman started playing Porter at the 2-guard as well? Please study your basketball history before making informed claims.



Lastly, Wade is a career 6.7 APG player. Clyde is at 5.6. Numbers favors way, any way you twist it.

Favored similarly to the way Clyde's 6.1 RPG are to Wade's 4.9 RPG, yet you choose to call that pretty much a wash. You're talking out of both ends of your mouth. Stay consistent.




What does size have to do with this? You're seriously digging a hole for yourself Jamstoned. Landslide reference was mainly due to Wade's dominance when healthy. Wade was considered a Top 1-3 player for 2 years. Drexler never reached that level. Clyde was a Top 10 player at best.

This is a laughable comment considering what you argue next in the following quote.

Drexler finished second in MVP voting in 1991-92. Your NBA history fails you. I've already acknowledged that Wade's peak in his career is greater than Drexler's. Your foundation to argue Wade is the better player "by a landslide" is shaky at best and predicated on inaccurate and misinformed notions of "facts."



Id give Drexler the tiniest and slightest edge on rebounding. But if you're 6'7, 6.1 RPG is not something you should brag to a smaller competition. Wade is a phenomenal rebounder for his size, in terms of ability, Wade maximizes more in that regards compared to Drexler.

This is why your comment about "what does size have to do with it" is laughable. Who is the better rebounder, Dwight Howard or Jason Kidd? Your logic says it's Dwight Howard by the tiniest and slightest edge because Dwight is bigger and taller. Well yeahhhh. No shit, Sherlock. That's why Drexler is the better rebounder than Wade. 6.1 RPG to 4.9 RPG. Works for your assist argument but you renounce it here. That's inconsistent stupidity, my friend.



Two failures does'nt make it right. Without riding Hakeems cottails, Drexler should be joining Malone, Stockton, Ewing and Barkley in the loser corner.

So you'd say Kobe is still the better player than LeBron? Oh, of course not. You've been suggesting LeBron has been better than Kobe all season long. You continue to go against your own failed logic. Making it to the NBA Finals twice as the main option of a team is not what you intimated as "not much success."

But if you want to press this issue, type it for me. Post it for all of SpursTalk: "Kobe is better than LeBron." Do it or your aforementioned point is a dull instrument... pointless.



He did'nt have any success in the grandest scheme of things. Period. Lebron is being penalized for the same thing. Any player in that position does'nt get a pass just because they reach a final.

But as I just stated, YOU don't penalize LeBron for that. So why not?




HOF'er have different standards than All Star players. These legendary Icons were expected to win a title as the main guy. Anything less is a failure. See Malone, Barkley, Ewing and Stockton. All great players but none will ever garner the same respect given to their championship winning peers.

James Worthy is not better than Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. Sorry. Tony Parker is not better than Jason Kidd or Chris Paul. It doesn't work that way. Whatever you want to think is fine. It's your opinion. But Cedric Maxwell or Chauncey Billups winning NBA Finals MVP in a title run does not erase the rest of their body of work when you evaluate them. Wade is well on his way to being one of the all time greats. But his career isn't finished. What if his career takes a turn like a Grant Hill or like a Cedric Maxwell and becomes average or mediocre for the rest of his NBA career? What then? You take that peak into consideration. But it's not the only factor in evaluating the greatness of a player.



Advance stats owns. Plain and simple. Since we are speaking in reference to offensive efficiency, PER, TS, EFG, W/S. Wade is just a better subject than Drexler.

As has been said on this messageboard before, I guess that makes Chris Paul automatically better than Magic Johnson ever was. I guess Greg Oden is a top 10 player in the league. Using advanced stats helps, but using them as the foundation of an argument when comparing is a negligent exercise in Hollingeresque stats logic.



At this point, no one has surpassed Wade's NBA Finals performance in terms of efficiency. When has Drexler done similar to this?


Dwyane Wade Mia 200634.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8PPG: 34.7
APG: 7.8
RPG: 3.8
SPG: 2.7
PER: 33.8*

History high***

Congratulations on Wade for that 2006 title run. It's the main reason why I do give Wade the edge over Drexler. You did read that right? I specifically said in my initial post I would give Wade the edge because of that. But again, it's not the only thing I look at. And it's foolish to do that.



It's hard to overstate how awesome Wade was in leading the Heat to their lone championship, particularly in the final four games when Miami rallied from a 2-0 deficit to stun the Mavs.

You're doing a good job at showing how awesome Wade was. I basically responded to this above.



Season. Ending. Injury. You cant penalize a player when he's on street clothes child.

The Miami Heat were 10-41 that season with Wade in the line-up. That's on pace for a 16 win season regardless of Wade. Penalize him for his team sucking even when he did play.



Im not hating and I dont need to envy. Wade will get there, its not a matter of if but a matter of how many more. This offseason will redeem Wade and put him back on the top 2-3 player debate.

Wade is great. I think he's in the top 3-4 player discussion right now already. I'm more curious at how low you regard Clyde Drexler. Clyde was a superstar in his own right. And since Wade is only about 7 seasons into his NBA career, at this moment, I think the two are very comparable players.

[JamStone]

How is Drexler the second best player next to Jordan in 91-92 when he himself started to decline in terms of offensive production? He had a career low in points average, and the other areas of his game did'nt really shine in the process. Maybe his wisdom, but you can't measure that.


David Robinson was a better plater than Drexler in 91-92, so I dont know where you based your information.

Drexler finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1991-92. That's a pretty good indication. Not always the best indicator, but it does give some validity to the contention he was the second best player that season.

[Killakobe81]

Drexler finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1991-92. That's a pretty good indication. Not always the best indicator, but it does give some validity to the contention he was the second best player that season.

I agree with the voters unless you use PER or some other crap Clyde was the 2nd best player that year.
MJ even admitted it was Why he went out of his way to torch him in the Finals ...he wanted to show that the gap etween #1 and #2 was still HUGE ...

A side not i think that year Clyde took it to Mj a bit in the All-star game. Some even called him jordan "west" ...
Mj decide to light him up in the Finals I wasnt always an MJ fan but aLWAYS respected his gangsta' ...

[Killakobe81]

Those were typical shooting guards, even in the 90s. 90s SGs with the exception of Jordan were one dimensional scorers. That's what the typical SG was in the 90s. If not, tell me who were "typical" SGs in the 90s? Look at all of those 90s SGs, other than Jordan, who were better play-makers than Clyde?

Ron Harper actually was one of the few SGs in that era who was a pretty good play-maker himself. He's closer to Drexler than the "typical" 90s SG in terms of play-making. Since you're so adamant about it being in the 90s, let's look at their respective APG in the 90s:

Drexler/Harper APG

90-91: 6.0/5.4
91-92: 6.7/5.1
92-93: 5.7/4.5
93-94: 4.9/4.6
94:95: 4.8/2.0
95-96: 5.8/2.6
96-97: 5.7/2.5
97-98: 5.5/2.9

Similar? Ok, when Harper was still a main option, sure. Drexler was still better. And if you want to talk about 90s SGs, then you take into consideration Harper's assist numbers in Chicago as well. Drexler was a better play-maker throughout the 90s. And, Harper is the one example outside Jordan and Drexler you have as coming close to being a good play-maker for a SG. Not so typical if those are the only three SGs in the 90s who were good play-makers.




Aren't you one to argue one of the reasons LeBron is better than Kobe is because Kobe has more talent on his team? Now that it works against your favor, you flip that argument? Please. It's not Drexler's fault Pat Riley hasn't put enough talent around Wade. And it's not like Drexler had HOFers or even perennial all stars on those Portland teams. He had some good teammates but that's not the reason he was a good play-maker.





Please. They combined for 8.1 APG. Drexler was still averaging 5-6 APG with Terry Porter averaging 9-10 APG by himself. Even when J-Will and GP were the PGs on the Heat, Wade had the basketball in his hands the majority of the time and he intiated and facilitated the offense most of the time. Most good players who have the ball in their hands as much as Wade does are capable of having good assist totals. Clyde did it while still largely playing off the ball.




It really is a good thing I brought up Terry Porter. But it is not a good thing that you made this argument because it's predicated on a fallacy. The season Porter's APG fell to 5.2, it wasn't because Drexler was given the ball more to create. Or did you choose to ignore the fact that Rod Strickland averaged 7.2 APG that season and Adelman started playing Porter at the 2-guard as well? Please study your basketball history before making informed claims.




Favored similarly to the way Clyde's 6.1 RPG are to Wade's 4.9 RPG, yet you choose to call that pretty much a wash. You're talking out of both ends of your mouth. Stay consistent.





This is a laughable comment considering what you argue next in the following quote.

Drexler finished second in MVP voting in 1991-92. Your NBA history fails you. I've already acknowledged that Wade's peak in his career is greater than Drexler's. Your foundation to argue Wade is the better player "by a landslide" is shaky at best and predicated on inaccurate and misinformed notions of "facts."




This is why your comment about "what does size have to do with it" is laughable. Who is the better rebounder, Dwight Howard or Jason Kidd? Your logic says it's Dwight Howard by the tiniest and slightest edge because Dwight is bigger and taller. Well yeahhhh. No shit, Sherlock. That's why Drexler is the better rebounder than Wade. 6.1 RPG to 4.9 RPG. Works for your assist argument but you renounce it here. That's inconsistent stupidity, my friend.




So you'd say Kobe is still the better player than LeBron? Oh, of course not. You've been suggesting LeBron has been better than Kobe all season long. You continue to go against your own failed logic. Making it to the NBA Finals twice as the main option of a team is not what you intimated as "not much success."

But if you want to press this issue, type it for me. Post it for all of SpursTalk: "Kobe is better than LeBron." Do it or your aforementioned point is a dull instrument... pointless.




But as I just stated, YOU don't penalize LeBron for that. So why not?





James Worthy is not better than Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. Sorry. Tony Parker is not better than Jason Kidd or Chris Paul. It doesn't work that way. Whatever you want to think is fine. It's your opinion. But Cedric Maxwell or Chauncey Billups winning NBA Finals MVP in a title run does not erase the rest of their body of work when you evaluate them. Wade is well on his way to being one of the all time greats. But his career isn't finished. What if his career takes a turn like a Grant Hill or like a Cedric Maxwell and becomes average or mediocre for the rest of his NBA career? What then? You take that peak into consideration. But it's not the only factor in evaluating the greatness of a player.




As has been said on this messageboard before, I guess that makes Chris Paul automatically better than Magic Johnson ever was. I guess Greg Oden is a top 10 player in the league. Using advanced stats helps, but using them as the foundation of an argument when comparing is a negligent exercise in Hollingeresque stats logic.




Congratulations on Wade for that 2006 title run. It's the main reason why I do give Wade the edge over Drexler. You did read that right? I specifically said in my initial post I would give Wade the edge because of that. But again, it's not the only thing I look at. And it's foolish to do that.




You're doing a good job at showing how awesome Wade was. I basically responded to this above.




The Miami Heat were 10-41 that season with Wade in the line-up. That's on pace for a 16 win season regardless of Wade. Penalize him for his team sucking even when he did play.




Wade is great. I think he's in the top 3-4 player discussion right now already. I'm more curious at how low you regard Clyde Drexler. Clyde was a superstar in his own right. And since Wade is only about 7 seasons into his NBA career, at this moment, I think the two are very comparable players.

this was a great post ...informed, pointed facts to support ...stats but not used as blunt instrument ...Jamstone brings it again.

[ambchang]

How is Drexler the second best player next to Jordan in 91-92 when he himself started to decline in terms of offensive production? He had a career low in points average, and the other areas of his game did'nt really shine in the process. Maybe his wisdom, but you can't measure that.


David Robinson was a better plater than Drexler in 91-92, so I dont know where you based your information.

Were you even watching basketball back then?

[Lars]

Drexler played with hand checking.

Clyde > Wade

[hitmanyr2k]

Scoring-Wade
Rebounding-Wade
Ballhandling- Wade
Playmaking-Wade
NBA Finals MVP- Wade


Come on. No offense to the great Clyde Drexler, but he is nowhere near Wade as a player. Legacy wise then its close but skills wise Wade wins in a landslide.

When it comes to scoring you can't compare these players from different eras. The guards/forwards today just have it too easy with the new rules. Their scoring numbers are inflated because of this. During Drexler's PEAK years he averaged 7 free throws at best on 20-21 shot attempts per game. He only hit his high of 7 for two seasons. The rest of the time he was averaging anywhere from 4-6 free throw attempts per game on 16-18 shot attempts per game. He wasn't in an era where the refs were whistle-happy and parading swingmen to the foul line.

Wade came into the league just as the rules were being changed and he benefitted greatly from this when Stern decided to handcuff defenders. To put it in perspective Wade in his 2nd year averaged 17 shot attempts a game but averaged 10 free throws per game. His 3rd year he averaged 19 shot attempts per game and averaged 11 free throws a game. To put that even more in perspective an athletic freak like Michael Jordan who drove to the rim just as much as Wade once averaged 11 free throws a game....but his shot attempts were at 27...8 more shot attempts than Wade when he had the same number of free throws. That's how ridiculously easy it is to get to the line and inflate your scoring averages these days. An athletic freak like Drexler would thrive in this era.

[ambchang]

terrible comparison

1st off, clyde was "second to jordan" as you suggest, because there was no one even on MJs plateau (skill and production-wise) at that time. on the other hand, there are a number of GREAT players that skill and production-wise, are very comparable to jordan, and its even arguable that there are several players that are more skilled and gifted than MJ right now.

What? There are several players that are more skilled and gifted than MJ right now? Pray tell.


2nd, Wade hasnt finished his career yet. comparing the amount of times that he finished top in MVP voting is retarded at this point. especially when there are more elite swingman-type players in the league.

Just as retarded as comparing stats of players before production started to decline at the tail end of a guard's career. Almost all guards see their statistics peak before 30 years old, mostly around 27 to 29 years old, it applied to Stockton, it applied to Jordan, it applied to Isiah, it applied Drexler, it applied to Kobe.

Guess how old Wade is right now.

Statistically, we have seen the best of Wade. He may be more of an MVP candidate in the future, but it is unlikely that he would challenge for league MVP for too long, especially with the marginal supporting cast he has now.


3rd, Wade has had an absolutely AWFUL team, while Clyde consistently had a VERY good team. many people consider those Portland teams to be among the best teams to never win a title, and superior to some who actually DID win titles.

Wouldn't that inflate Wade's numbers statistically? Do you expect the Heat to suddenly start contending? If so, how? If not, how would you figure Wade would be able to challenge for MVP voting in the near future and over take Drexler's accomplishment in that regard?

[ambchang]

Thank you. All great points stretch.



I would also like to add that finishing in the MVP votes to prove greatness is a worthless debate. Kobe Bryant was ranked as the best if not the second best player in the league for a couple of years before winning his MVP and he rarely finished in the Top 3 MVP votes. Just look at Kobe's 2005-2006 season.

Bryant finished a #4 in MVP voting that year, what is wrong with that?

[stretch]

What? There are several players that are more skilled and gifted than MJ right now? Pray tell.

As usual, you take things out of context, as I said its ARGUABLE. However, yes, there are other players more skilled and gifted than MJ. Kobe is more skilled. Carmello is more skilled. Lebron is more gifted. Wade is more gifted, and very comparable in terms of skills. Durant may be more skilled (lets see how his game develops as he reaches his prime years first though).


Just as retarded as comparing stats of players before production started to decline at the tail end of a guard's career. Almost all guards see their statistics peak before 30 years old, mostly around 27 to 29 years old, it applied to Stockton, it applied to Jordan, it applied to Isiah, it applied Drexler, it applied to Kobe.

Guess how old Wade is right now.

Statistically, we have seen the best of Wade. He may be more of an MVP candidate in the future, but it is unlikely that he would challenge for league MVP for too long, especially with the marginal supporting cast he has now.

Neat, but I never compared their stats in such a manner. I just feel that Wade is a better basketball player. I like the style in which he plays better. He has undeniable skills. Physically he is a monster, possibly posessing the quickest first step a SG has ever had. He has PG skills and can run an offense well, but can also score as well as anyone. He is very smart, and plays more aggressive than pretty much any star in the league right now, focusing very heavily on getting close to the rim and high percentage shots.

Like I said in another post, if I had to chose to build a team around either one of them, I would take Wade. I never said hes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clyde or anything like that. Clyde was a beast too. I just think Wade is better.


Wouldn't that inflate Wade's numbers statistically? Do you expect the Heat to suddenly start contending? If so, how? If not, how would you figure Wade would be able to challenge for MVP voting in the near future and over take Drexler's accomplishment in that regard?

Are you retarded? How the hell would playing on an awful team inflate Wade's ability to be an MVP? Great players on teams that go nowhere never win MVPs. Obviously you didn't even read your own post before posting this, moron.

[ambchang]

As usual, you take things out of context, as I said its ARGUABLE. However, yes, there are other players more skilled and gifted than MJ. Kobe is more skilled. Carmello is more skilled. Lebron is more gifted. Wade is more gifted, and very comparable in terms of skills. Durant may be more skilled (lets see how his game develops as he reaches his prime years first though).

Does that translate into a better player though? You can argue that Drexler was just as skilled and gifted as Jordan in the same context. Robinson was more gifted, Hakeem was more gifted, Dominque was about as gifted, Stockton was more skilled. So what?


Neat, but I never compared their stats in such a manner. I just feel that Wade is a better basketball player. I like the style in which he plays better. He has undeniable skills. Physically he is a monster, possibly posessing the quickest first step a SG has ever had. He has PG skills and can run an offense well, but can also score as well as anyone. He is very smart, and plays more aggressive than pretty much any star in the league right now, focusing very heavily on getting close to the rim and high percentage shots.

Drexler's 1st step wasn't too shabby himself. Drexler can run an offense very well, very smart, drives to the basket relentlessly.

If you just want to say that you felt Wade is a better basketball player because you like his style, just say so. There is no need to call my earlier argument retarded when you can't even refute that.


Like I said in another post, if I had to chose to build a team around either one of them, I would take Wade. I never said hes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clyde or anything like that. Clyde was a beast too. I just think Wade is better.

You heard me said otherwise? I simply stated that Drexler's career accomplishments has been devalued over time.


Are you retarded? How the hell would playing on an awful team inflate Wade's ability to be an MVP? Great players on teams that go nowhere never win MVPs. Obviously you didn't even read your own post before posting this, moron.

Did I say that? You read that anywhere? Can you read? Quote me.

[stretch]

Does that translate into a better player though? You can argue that Drexler was just as skilled and gifted as Jordan in the same context. Robinson was more gifted, Hakeem was more gifted, Dominque was about as gifted, Stockton was more skilled. So what?



Drexler's 1st step wasn't too shabby himself. Drexler can run an offense very well, very smart, drives to the basket relentlessly.

If you just want to say that you felt Wade is a better basketball player because you like his style, just say so. There is no need to call my earlier argument retarded when you can't even refute that.



You heard me said otherwise? I simply stated that Drexler's career accomplishments has been devalued over time.



Did I say that? You read that anywhere? Can you read? Quote me.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

tbh all of your points had no point, just you being butthurt over the fact that your previous reply had no relevance to what was first being replied to by myself.

proof of a defeated dumbass IMO krofl

especially when you decide to start comparing how gifted Centers are to Jordan (who was a guard, in case you didnt know tbh)

* cue in more ambchang nonsense-filled argumentative bullshit posts *

or maybe i should just go the "spurfan" route.

wade - 1

glyde - 0

wade > glyde

1 ring faggot

:rolleyes

[sook]

Seriously?

How man people here actually saw drexler play? He is a shityttshittytysshittshitty commetator but he was un unbelievable player

[lil_penny]

or maybe i should just go the "spurfan" route.

wade - 1

glyde - 0

wade > glyde

1 ring faggot

:rolleyes

?????????

[PGDynasty24]

Both great players,but I take D-wade. He is a much more complete player

[stretch]

Seriously?

How man people here actually saw drexler play? He is a shityttshittytysshittshitty commetator but he was un unbelievable player

so is Wade

[ambchang]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

tbh all of your points had no point, just you being butthurt over the fact that your previous reply had no relevance to what was first being replied to by myself.

Since you can't read, this was what was responded:




As usual, you take things out of context, as I said its ARGUABLE. However, yes, there are other players more skilled and gifted than MJ. Kobe is more skilled. Carmello is more skilled. Lebron is more gifted. Wade is more gifted, and very comparable in terms of skills. Durant may be more skilled (lets see how his game develops as he reaches his prime years first though).

Does that translate into a better player though? You can argue that Drexler was just as skilled and gifted as Jordan in the same context. Robinson was more gifted, Hakeem was more gifted, Dominque was about as gifted, Stockton was more skilled. So what?


Neat, but I never compared their stats in such a manner. I just feel that Wade is a better basketball player. I like the style in which he plays better. He has undeniable skills. Physically he is a monster, possibly posessing the quickest first step a SG has ever had. He has PG skills and can run an offense well, but can also score as well as anyone. He is very smart, and plays more aggressive than pretty much any star in the league right now, focusing very heavily on getting close to the rim and high percentage shots.

Drexler's 1st step wasn't too shabby himself. Drexler can run an offense very well, very smart, drives to the basket relentlessly.

If you just want to say that you felt Wade is a better basketball player because you like his style, just say so. There is no need to call my earlier argument retarded when you can't even refute that.


Like I said in another post, if I had to chose to build a team around either one of them, I would take Wade. I never said hes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clyde or anything like that. Clyde was a beast too. I just think Wade is better.

You heard me said otherwise? I simply stated that Drexler's career accomplishments has been devalued over time.


Are you retarded? How the hell would playing on an awful team inflate Wade's ability to be an MVP? Great players on teams that go nowhere never win MVPs. Obviously you didn't even read your own post before posting this, moron.

Did I say that? You read that anywhere? Can you read? Quote me.


Tell me where I have not addressed your points.

Just because Wade demolished your team in 06 does not mean that he is better than Drexler, it just meant that the Mavs couldn't contain a player in a league where there is no way to guard a quick, charging SG without fouling. Just like the Pistons in the round before.

You have shown that you were simply talking out of your ass, and had nothing to back up your Wade is the one to build around assertion. What points do you have to back up Wade is the better player of the two? Stating I like is style better is hardly any insightful knowledge.

You jump all over quotes that you thought you read, shown that you were careless in your comprehension, and then go on a hissy fit and calling people butt hurt. Just man up, and admit that you read wrong.



:proof of a defeated dumbass IMO krofl

especially when you decide to start comparing how gifted Centers are to Jordan (who was a guard, in case you didnt know tbh)

Since when can centers not be more gifted than guards? You explicited stated PLAYERS in your original quote.

And in case you didn't realize, you were comparing how skilled forwards are to Jordan (who was a guard, in case you didn't know tbh).



* cue in more ambchang nonsense-filled argumentative bullshit posts *

or maybe i should just go the "spurfan" route.

wade - 1

glyde - 0

wade > glyde

1 ring faggot

:rolleyes

I never subscribed to that, but in the future, if you want to refute any points, read them first.

[Double-Up]

Clyde the Glide, he did it at least as good as Wade in an era with tougher officiating.