MJ's 91 Bulls vs Lebron's 09-10 Cavs in a 7 game series

[ChrisRichards]

Who takes this series? Am I crazy to believe that Lebron and his Cavaliers would beat Jordan's Bulls?

[BRHornet45]

Bulls no doubt about it

[Red Hawk #21]

I'd go with Lebron's 09-10 Cavs for some reason...

[fevertrees]

Will it be 91 officiating or 09-10 "Put Lebron at the line every time he travels in the lane" refs?

[BRHornet45]

Will it be 91 officiating or 09-10 "Put Lebron at the line every time he travels in the lane" refs?

son VERY GOOD question

[Red Hawk #21]

You know, that's a great point. It depends which kind of defense will be allowed, if MJ, Pip and Co are allowed to guard Lebron then they will win the series. But if Lebron shoots FT's every time he's touched then the Cavs will win.

[PGDynasty24]

how can u compare this when we haven't see the Cavs in the playoffs yet. If they win the title then you can go compare them. Until then...

[BRHornet45]

how can u compare this when we haven't see the Cavs in the playoffs yet. If they win the title then you can go compare them. Until then...

exactly. the Cavs have never won anything and don't even deserve to be compared to a championship team.

[Kai]

Might as well start a thread about the 01 Lakers vs the 2034 San Diego Hellcats.

[Dunc n Dave]

Bulls, definitely...

[KSeal]

Durant's 09-10 Zombies no doubt.

[Girasuck]

Ummm...is this really a serious question? Bulls would wipe the floor with Cleveland. Bulls sweep.

[21_Blessings]

Cleveland needs to prove they can beat Orlando and LA in 7 game series before this question has any concept in reality, at all.

[ezau]

lol. Cavs haven't even won a fucking championship. Unless they win a ring, they'll be nothing more than the Mavs-East

[Deimosfobos]

Will it be 91 officiating or 09-10 "Put Lebron at the line every time he travels in the lane" refs?

[namlook]

You know, that's a great point. It depends which kind of defense will be allowed, if MJ, Pip and Co are allowed to guard Lebron then they will win the series. But if Lebron shoots FT's every time he's touched then the Cavs will win.

Is this a joke? The Bulls were 6 time champs and the Cavs have never won anything.

[Red Hawk #21]

Is this a joke? The Bulls were 6 time champs and the Cavs have never won anything.

Dude, it doesn't fucking matter. You know why? Because this is a hypothetical question. Even if the Cavs win a championship it wouldn't matter because we will never know how they would do against the 91 Bulls. Simple as that, idk why all of y'all are getting butthurt over this shit. One can only guess what the result would be.

[ffadicted]

Considering what happened in the Washington series, Lebron would be crying by the end of the first half Game 1 due to tough D. And if it was played in today's game, he'd just crab dribble his way to a series win.

[Killakobe81]

I understand it's a hypothetical and the Cavs are playing really well ...but seriously? doesnt matter what rules are allowed ...the Bulls can throw 2 elite level (Pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders ...ever and MJ can be when he wanted to ...but usually was carrying the offense) defenders at Lebron ...the Cavs best defender is Delonte freaking west ....

Bulls have the best player, the 3rd best player (Pippen) and Horace Grant, neutralizes Verejao ...and they throw their 2 headed center at Shaq and Z ...and a MUCH better head coach. that team had great shooters as well.

Even though Pip wasnt great yet ...Bulls would DESTROY the cavs even if the Cavs win the title ...

the NBA now is on an upswing but the 91 Bulls weregood before the NBa sucked in the mid 90's ....

I doubt MJ would lose to Lebron, last years Lakers or the Celts heat or Spurs of recent years.

Only team with a shot vs THOSE bulls (in recent years) would of been 3 peat Lakers squad ... because of Shaq inside Kobe outside great role players ...

[poop]

lol. Cavs haven't even won a fucking championship. Unless they win a ring, they'll be nothing more than the Mavs-East

:lol good point never thought of it like that before

[ambchang]

The 09-10 Cavs would beat the 90-91 Cavs, but it would be a pretty even series if they were to play the 91-92 Cavs. Larry Nance, with his strength and quickness, could give Lebron fits. Brad Daugherty would absolutely kill Shaq on offense with his effective high post game, and Price would just destroy Mo Williams. Then of course, Hot Rod Williams, Terrell Brandon, Steve Kerr and Bobby Phills is head and shoulders above the 09-10 Cavs bench.

[JamStone]

Delonte West is not the Cavs' best defender, not even their best perimeter defender. LeBron is the Cavs best defender. And while Delonte West is a pretty good defender, it's well documented that he'll struggle against bigger, more physical guards. The Cavs have two other guys that may or may not be better overall defenders but match-up better against bigger guards in Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon. Additionally, they have been playing Jawad Williams at the 2-guard some as well and he's tall and long for a guard with good mobility.

The Cavs actually have a lot of defensive options to throw at Jordan and Pippen. The Cavs also have Shaq when healthy, albeit older and nowhere near as dominant as he used to be. He can still be a mismatch and a problem, and sometimes games can be decided by one or two possessions. I think healthy, Shaq would be a guy that would help these Cavs against those Bulls.

On paper, there's actually something to the comparison. But you could do the same with the Lakers against those Bulls. On paper, it looks like a fairly even match-up. But as cliche as it is, the games aren't played on paper. There was something about those Jordan Bulls teams that went beyond talent. There were arguably more talented teams they faced (although I do argue that Jordan's competition wasn't all that great during his run, especially compared to the 80s championship competition of the Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets) at least when it came down to depth and balance of talent. After Jordan and Pippen, the talent level dropped significantly. But those role players on those Bulls teams knew their role and limitations almost perfectly and rarely if ever went beyond them. You look at coaching and those Bulls teams were stronger, more efficient, and executed better at both ends of the floor. And the ultimate trump card of Jordan's will to win. It trumps anything that can be put on paper. As talented as LeBron is, and you could argue he's bigger, stronger, faster than Jordan, there's only little evidence that shows LeBron can will his team to a championship. His game 5 in the 2007 ECF against the Pistons 25 straight point barrage is an example of him willing his team to win. But can he do it consistently and enough times and against the best teams in the league for his team to win a championship? It's an intangible that can't be quantified or qualified and for the purposes of this comparison with the 91 Bulls is probably the distinction that until proven will give the edge to the 91 Bulls.

[Leetonidas]

Bulls without a doubt, especially if they're playing with 90s handchecking rules. The Bulls actually have someone who could (somewhat) guard LeBron in Pippen, but no one on the Cavs is stopping a prime Jordan, no one.

[baseline bum]

Chicago in 5.

Prime Jordan > Prime LeBron
Prime Pippen >> Rest of Cavs team

Having a prime Horace Grant is just icing on the cake for Chicago.

[lefty]

Bulls, no fucking question

Ok, MJ had no Shaq, but Pippen and Grant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Lebrons

And KFC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Brown

[Killakobe81]

Delonte West is not the Cavs' best defender, not even their best perimeter defender. LeBron is the Cavs best defender. And while Delonte West is a pretty good defender, it's well documented that he'll struggle against bigger, more physical guards. The Cavs have two other guys that may or may not be better overall defenders but match-up better against bigger guards in Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon. Additionally, they have been playing Jawad Williams at the 2-guard some as well and he's tall and long for a guard with good mobility.

The Cavs actually have a lot of defensive options to throw at Jordan and Pippen. The Cavs also have Shaq when healthy, albeit older and nowhere near as dominant as he used to be. He can still be a mismatch and a problem, and sometimes games can be decided by one or two possessions. I think healthy, Shaq would be a guy that would help these Cavs against those Bulls.

On paper, there's actually something to the comparison. But you could do the same with the Lakers against those Bulls. On paper, it looks like a fairly even match-up. But as cliche as it is, the games aren't played on paper. There was something about those Jordan Bulls teams that went beyond talent. There were arguably more talented teams they faced (although I do argue that Jordan's competition wasn't all that great during his run, especially compared to the 80s championship competition of the Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets) at least when it came down to depth and balance of talent. After Jordan and Pippen, the talent level dropped significantly. But those role players on those Bulls teams knew their role and limitations almost perfectly and rarely if ever went beyond them. You look at coaching and those Bulls teams were stronger, more efficient, and executed better at both ends of the floor. And the ultimate trump card of Jordan's will to win. It trumps anything that can be put on paper. As talented as LeBron is, and you could argue he's bigger, stronger, faster than Jordan, there's only little evidence that shows LeBron can will his team to a championship. His game 5 in the 2007 ECF against the Pistons 25 straight point barrage is an example of him willing his team to win. But can he do it consistently and enough times and against the best teams in the league for his team to win a championship? It's an intangible that can't be quantified or qualified and for the purposes of this comparison with the 91 Bulls is probably the distinction that until proven will give the edge to the 91 Bulls.

Lebron is NOT a great perimeter defender. When it comes to moving his feet staying in front of a quality offensive player Lebron is STILL suspect. He has improved but i still think west is better. PErimeter means staying in front of quick point guards as well as battling two guards or even the smaller perimeter forwards. when healthy and focused Delonte is better than Lebron at those things. If it's a big 2 or 3 i would take lebron because he has IMPROVEd his perimeter defense and his size prevents post-ups. But Lebron's value on defense is more as a help defender and rebounder ...

i do agree with you Jamstone that Lebron is bigger, faster and stronger than jordan. And as you pointed in that ECF he did some truly AMAZING things ...
Even though you could argue thatthe Cavs have a good and in some ways deeper roster I like the Bulls top 3 better, their coaching is better, and even though I THINK Lebron has the POTENTIAL to SOMEDAY be better than MJ
I would give MJ and his Bulls the edge and i think they win in 5 or 6 games.

you make some good points Jamstone. the mid 90's sucked, shaq could have moments and the Cavs have a talented roster that Powe is even adding to.


But the 91 bulls would have tapped that ass ...

[ChrisRichards]

Guys. No one is stopping Lebron from Chicago. Scottie Pippen and his skinny 220 lb ass is not going to halt Lebron's frame, spped and power. Pippen could'nt even contain old man James Worthy and Magic Johnson. Sorry. Jordan would average a lot of points, that I dont doubt, but the Cavs have a deeper depth than Jordan's 91 Bulls.


Varejao, JJ Hickson and Antawn Jamison would give Horace Grant nightmares. No one can cover Mo Williams. Delonte West would take a poop on John Paxson's slow ass for 28 minutes.




Jordan and Lebron pretty much cancels out the Superstar power of this match up but good grief look at cleveland's edge in terms of depth.


Bulls

Pippen
Paxson
BJ
Horace Grant
the rest of the nobodies
Cartwright
Levingston
Stacey King
Will Perdue

Now look at the Cavs lineup after Lebron.


Shaq
Varejao (+/- monster)
Ilgauskas
Hickson
Jamison
Mo Williams
Delonte West
Anthony Parker
Jamario Moon



Shaq alone is the biggest Xfactor the Cavs have over Chicago. Bill Cartwright, Stacey King and Will Perdue is not going to cover this dude, then you have Ilgauskas coming off the bench? This is a mismatch made in hell for the Bulls.


And while I agree that KFC>Mike Brown, I still believe that its a players league, and ultimately the players on the court wins the game.

[MiamiHeat]

nobody on the cavs is stopping MJ, period. whereas, both MJ and pippen can help slow lebron down

and MJ always knew how to win, put his team in positions to succeed....and when the game winning moment came, MJ was fucking god.

lebron is great, but there's no shot.

[ezau]

Lebron can't even beat an offense-less, one-dimensional Howard. How'd you expect him to beat Michael fucking Jordan?

[TDMVPDPOY]

the bulls team looks good on paper

but they have no answer for lebron seriously, i dont give a shit if its pippen or jordan, we are talkin about lebron here who would just power his way into the lane at will...unless the bulls can stop him from penetrating and force up jumpshots instead....as for lebrons answer to jordan? just play normal defense and dont get into foul trouble....

then again snaq oatmeal atm is better than what the 91 bulls had...cartwright and wellington is no match for snaq oatmeal

[21_Blessings]

LeBron is the Cavs best defender.

Actually, Varejao is. Lebron's man defense is pretty mediocre.

[Chieflion]

This is pre-handcheck or the loose rules after 2005?

[Killakobe81]

The over estimation of Lebron's defense beacuse of some highlight blocks is pretty funny to me ...no doubt he is a good defender. But if Lebron was the BEST defender the Cavs had ...then they have no hopes of winning a title. I agree Verejao is the best POST defender. West is the best Perimeter guy (that actually gets significant mins. Parker Moon etc play spot mins.)

Lebron has gotten a lot better at jumpshooting as well but Lebron is not a great "shooter" by the same token Lebron has improved on defense but he is not a great defender ...but it's nitpicking...

What he is ... the most imposing physical force in the NBA due to his size/speed ratio, his high skill level for a man of his size, his court vision and when he decides to drive ... a FT drawing machine ...

But please don't overestimate his defense...

[lefty]

Interesting debate


It's nice to compare the benches, the scrubs, the role players......



But the Bulls still have MJ and KFC; to me, that's enough to beat Lebron and Mike Brown

[mogrovejo]

Varejao is the Cavs best defender, LeBron comes in second. And he does a great job staying in front of people.

No hand-checking would probably benefit the Bulls more than the Cavs, it would be tougher to stop Jordan's penetrations. But overall the current defensive rules would give the Cavs a huge advantage mainly because they're more used to them, especially to the use of zones and quasi-zones. If the Bulls didn't have time to prepare, they'd be creamed by the Cavs more complex and sophisticated defensive schemes.

I think the Cavs would put a fight but their second best player is Anderson Varejao and that would probably condemn them to a 5 games loss. Can't even think of another team who won the championship with a 2nd best player of similar quality. Ah, maybe the Rockets with Otis Thorpe.

Oh, and the "Cavs never won a title" argument is asinine. Make it between the 09/10 Cavs and the MJ's 90 Bull - this way you're comparing 2 teams that never won a title.

[mogrovejo]

Will it be 91 officiating or 09-10 "Put Lebron at the line every time he travels in the lane" refs?

:lmao They'd be playing Jordan. Do you think refs overprotecting superstars would function in favour of the Cavs?

[Killakobe81]

Varejao is the Cavs best defender, LeBron comes in second. And he does a great job staying in front of people.

No hand-checking would probably benefit the Bulls more than the Cavs, it would be tougher to stop Jordan's penetrations. But overall the current defensive rules would give the Cavs a huge advantage mainly because they're more used to them, especially to the use of zones and quasi-zones. If the Bulls didn't have time to prepare, they'd be creamed by the Cavs more complex and sophisticated defensive schemes.

I think the Cavs would put a fight but their second best player is Anderson Varejao and that would probably condemn them to a 5 games loss. Can't even think of another team who won the championship with a 2nd best player of similar quality. Ah, maybe the Rockets with Otis Thorpe.

Oh, and the "Cavs never won a title" argument is asinine. Make it between the 09/10 Cavs and the MJ's 90 Bull - this way you're comparing 2 teams that never won a title.

LOL mike brown and his staff are you serious?!

Also bulls had to to solve the bad boys Pistons defense and Chiuck Daly's staff (check the archives Daly had an AWESOME staff almost all of his asstants became head coaches) ...and the bulls figured THEM out ...

i am not one of hose that say the bulls are the greatest team ever ...i even feel the 72 win team is bit overrated ...but even still the 91 team would destroy this one you had a just entering his prime MJ with a young developing scotty and horace grant ...plus a clutch shooters like Paxson and hodges ...

I actually think due to age etc. that this Cavs team would do better against the 2nd 3 peat bulls (especially the last title)then the first one beacuse even though Scotty was a better player on those teams .. Mj has lost a step (though still the best) Rodman was overrated and by this time Lebron would be too much athletically for Pippen or MJ ...

the first 3 peat team of the bulls was the best because MJ was his best IMHO ...during that run he could hit the dagger jumper but he was STILL dunking on whole teams during that era ...by the second three tip it wa smore about the elbow jumpers and fadeaways ...

[JamStone]

LeBron's individual man defense improved dramatically last season. He's not Bruce Bowen, but saying it's mediocre is blatantly inaccurate. He doesn't play shut down defense all the time because that would require too much energy on his part and his team doesn't require him to do so. But he's a much better man defender than some of you give him credit for and a better defender than Delonte. People are actually overrating Delonte's defense. He's a good defender but also easily exploitable because when he defends big 2-guards, he's outmatched physically. His long arms and quickness get neutralized in the post against guys like Kobe, Joe Johnson, Roy. His inability to defend big perimeter players is one of the main reasons the Cavs lost in the ECF last year when he got exploited by Turkoglu of all people. And now we're talking about Jordanin this discussion? Come on. LeBron is a better defender because he can't be so easily exploited like Delonte can. And it's not just his highlight transition blocks that makes LeBron now a very good defender. Watch his defense in the fourth quarter of a close game and you'll see.

[ChrisRichards]

This is pre-handcheck or the loose rules after 2005?
Full handcheck rules. 90's era style.

[tlongII]

I'd go with the Cavs. The 91 Bulls would have lost to the 91 Blazers had they played them.

[ChrisRichards]

LeBron's individual man defense improved dramatically last season. He's not Bruce Bowen, but saying it's mediocre is blatantly inaccurate. He doesn't play shut down defense all the time because that would require too much energy on his part and his team doesn't require him to do so. But he's a much better man defender than some of you give him credit for and a better defender than Delonte. People are actually overrating Delonte's defense. He's a good defender but also easily exploitable because when he defends big 2-guards, he's outmatched physically. His long arms and quickness get neutralized in the post against guys like Kobe, Joe Johnson, Roy. His inability to defend big perimeter players is one of the main reasons the Cavs lost in the ECF last year when he got exploited by Turkoglu of all people. And now we're talking about Jordanin this discussion? Come on. LeBron is a better defender because he can't be so easily exploited like Delonte can. And it's not just his highlight transition blocks that makes LeBron now a very good defender. Watch his defense in the fourth quarter of a close game and you'll see.
Co-erect.

James is not the DPOY bastard his ESPN highlight suggests, but he's come a long way and IMO a Top 3 defensive player among all perimeter players.

[ChrisRichards]

I'd go with the Cavs. The 91 Bulls would have lost to the 91 Blazers had they played them.
WTF?

Thanks for playing Tlong :lol:lol:lol

[tlongII]

WTF?

Thanks for playing Tlong :lol:lol:lol

The Blazers had the best record in the league in 90-91 and swept the Bulls in the regular season series. We got upset in the WCF by the Lakers.

[cheguevara]

Who takes this series? Am I crazy to believe that Lebron and his Cavaliers would beat Jordan's Bulls?

you are....
http://brazilfactor.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/crazy-mobile-man1.jpg

[Killakobe81]

Co-erect.

James is not the DPOY bastard his ESPN highlight suggests, but he's come a long way and IMO a Top 3 defensive player among all perimeter players.

Top 3 in the NBA? really? I would take Westbrok, Sefolosha, Battier, Afflalo, Dontay jones all over Lebron as a perimeter defender ...

i am not saying Lebron when motivated isnt better than those guys much like kobe when focused Lebron is a top 3 guy ...(if i needed just 1 stop on teh perimeter I would want kobe, Lebron or wade) but let's be real. Lebron carries his team so rarely ever is called on or takes the chllenge of being a top 3 defender on a consistent basis. The guys i listed must play defense hard every night to just simply stay in the NBA ...

Again you guys slay me with the hyperbole. Lebron is magnificent enough as a player with his game, numbers and just physicality as specimen. No need to revise history or drink the kool-aid, in fact for whomever he plays next season it's a great thing he still has areas for improvement ...you (we) may seem him develop in to player that surpasses MJ ...that is still VERY possible.

and to be fair i dont believe MJ was the best defensive player in the NBa when he won the awrad either ...but i think at this point he still was a better defender than Lebron ...Mj was just like kobe he played it sometimes but still more than Kobe or Lebron IMHO ...

[Killakobe81]

one last thought if he really is a top 3 defender why not guard the best perimeter guy every night?
He has a lot more help on offense now ...why not prove it?
I am not criticizing him (lebron) cuz that is Mike b rown's decision but any smart coach knows that delonte's dedication on perimeter defense will be better than Lebron's because if West doesnt defend he wil sit ...for lebron he is playing either way ...

Even though i hate his articles most times Rosen wrote an article recently where he argued that Lebron was overrated on defense ...but im sure most here just fall in love with the Leblock so i guess running from behind and blocking a shot from behind says A LOT about perimeter defense? LOL

[pookenstein]

lol. Cavs haven't even won a fucking championship. Unless they win a ring, they'll be nothing more than the Mavs-East

This.


Is this a joke? The Bulls were 6 time champs and the Cavs have never won anything.

And this.


Will it be 91 officiating or 09-10 "Put Lebron at the line every time he travels in the lane" refs?

Bulls either way. Don't even have to discuss the result with '91 officiating. Clear sweep.
09-10 officiating also a sweep, because all the calls James gets, Mike gets as well.

[PT Cruiser]

nobody on the cavs is stopping MJ, period. whereas, both MJ and pippen can help slow lebron down

and MJ always knew how to win, put his team in positions to succeed....and when the game winning moment came, MJ was fucking god.

lebron is great, but there's no shot.


Hi buddy!

[ChrisRichards]

Hi buddy!
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao



BEST FUCKING TROLL EVER


:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

[hitmanyr2k]

I would hope they would play with a 90's style of rules where defensive players were given a chance to play. I can only imagine how many free throws Jordan would get with today's rules. During the first 3 peat in a more physical era Jordan only averaged 7-8 free throws a game. Pippen averaged 5-6 free throws a game and that was at their athletic peak when they got to the rim a lot and barely launched any threes. The refs today hand out free throws like candy. Star players are averaging 9-10 free throws a game and I've seen my share of games this year where they've actually hit double-digit free throws in the first half alone. I find it ridiculous.

[ChrisRichards]

90's rules I dont think Jordan would be as successful against Cleveland's frontline. You have physical and imposing big men like Shaq and Varejao waiting down low to clober you.

[ChrisRichards]

one last thought if he really is a top 3 defender why not guard the best perimeter guy every night?
He has a lot more help on offense now ...why not prove it?
I am not criticizing him (lebron) cuz that is Mike b rown's decision but any smart coach knows that delonte's dedication on perimeter defense will be better than Lebron's because if West doesnt defend he wil sit ...for lebron he is playing either way ...

Even though i hate his articles most times Rosen wrote an article recently where he argued that Lebron was overrated on defense ...but im sure most here just fall in love with the Leblock so i guess running from behind and blocking a shot from behind says A LOT about perimeter defense? LOL
Top defensive players of today does not carry the offensive load that Lebron does. He is practically the Cleveland Cavaliers offense. Lebron is a better player than what people gives him credit for.



And please dont ever quote Charlie Rosen. This is the same guy who said Lebron will not amount to anything but a good role player in his career. :blah

[ChrisRichards]

Top 3 in the NBA? really? I would take Westbrok, Sefolosha, Battier, Afflalo, Dontay jones all over Lebron as a perimeter defender ...
Just because those players gives Kobe a hard time, it does'nt make them a better defensive player than Lebron. Stopping Kobe is not really that hard anymore. You just put a guy willing to get close to him with long wingspans and he'll struggle against them. Afflalo, Matt Barnes, Battier did a great job defensively on Kobe simply because they have Kobe's numbers, not because they were GREAT defensive players. Its all about matchups.

[mogrovejo]

LOL mike brown and his staff are you serious?!

Also bulls had to to solve the bad boys Pistons defense and Chiuck Daly's staff (check the archives Daly had an AWESOME staff almost all of his asstants became head coaches) ...and the bulls figured THEM out ...

i am not one of hose that say the bulls are the greatest team ever ...i even feel the 72 win team is bit overrated ...but even still the 91 team would destroy this one you had a just entering his prime MJ with a young developing scotty and horace grant ...plus a clutch shooters like Paxson and hodges ...

I actually think due to age etc. that this Cavs team would do better against the 2nd 3 peat bulls (especially the last title)then the first one beacuse even though Scotty was a better player on those teams .. Mj has lost a step (though still the best) Rodman was overrated and by this time Lebron would be too much athletically for Pippen or MJ ...

the first 3 peat team of the bulls was the best because MJ was his best IMHO ...during that run he could hit the dagger jumper but he was STILL dunking on whole teams during that era ...by the second three tip it wa smore about the elbow jumpers and fadeaways ...

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

1 - Mike Brown is an excellent defensive coach.

2 - You're completely oblivious to how much the game has changed with the new defensive rules. The 91 Bulls never faced the kind of defence NBA teams play these days.

3 - Do you know that perfect score of 10 Nadia Comaneci had in the Olympics? The routine she executed to get that score is now replicated by thousands of 9/10 years old gymnasts around the world. Daly's Jordan Rules are Comaneci's '79 routine. It was pretty amazing - 20 years ago. Now it's pretty ordinary. Mike Brown is way more sophisticated from a strategic point of view than '91 Phil Jackson and it's not even close. Or than Red Auerback in '59.

[hitmanyr2k]

90's rules I dont think Jordan would be as successful against Cleveland's frontline. You have physical and imposing big men like Shaq and Varejao waiting down low to clober you.

Was that sarcasm? Throughout their titles years the Bulls took on frontlines like Daugherty/Nance/Williams, Ewing/Oakley/Mason, Zo/PJ Brown, Shaq/Horace, Smits/Davis bros,, . I don't think a 38 year old Shaq and Varejao would be enough to stop Jordan or Pippen from going to the rim. They used to dunk on 7 footers because they felt like it...especially in their athletic primes.

[JamStone]

one last thought if he really is a top 3 defender why not guard the best perimeter guy every night?
He has a lot more help on offense now ...why not prove it?
I am not criticizing him (lebron) cuz that is Mike b rown's decision but any smart coach knows that delonte's dedication on perimeter defense will be better than Lebron's because if West doesnt defend he wil sit ...for lebron he is playing either way ...

Even though i hate his articles most times Rosen wrote an article recently where he argued that Lebron was overrated on defense ...but im sure most here just fall in love with the Leblock so i guess running from behind and blocking a shot from behind says A LOT about perimeter defense? LOL


For much the same reason Phil Jackson doesn't do it with Kobe or Pop doesn't do it with Duncan, until late in the fourth quarter of close games. You don't exhaust your offensive superstar by making him play the best players on the opposing team for the full 48 minutes. You don't want them to exert more energy than they have to on defense and you don't want them getting into foul trouble. It's the reason why the Lakers have acquired guys like Ariza and Artest so Kobe doesn't have to do it. It's the reason Pop will often put Duncan on the weaker front court player on the opposing team to start the game.

I think you're getting confused with LeBron's ability to defend and his need to defend. His team is pretty good, you know. He doesn't have to play shut-down defender on most nights. But when he does, he will, especially late in games. I'm not one claiming LeBron is a top 3 perimeter defender. I wouldn't go that far. But, he's certainly not a mediocre or average perimeter defender, as has been suggested by some in this thread.

Let's put it to you this way. Say you're the coach of the Cavaliers. They're up by 1 point against a good team with a great offensive perimeter player with 15 seconds left in the game. Whoever it is against, Kobe, Wade, Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy, Carmelo, Paul Pierce... whoever. You're the head coach. Again, 15 seconds left and the Cavs up by 1 point. Are you going to put LeBron on those guys or Delonte West?

Exactly.

[Killakobe81]

Just because those players gives Kobe a hard time, it does'nt make them a better defensive player than Lebron. Stopping Kobe is not really that hard anymore. You just put a guy willing to get close to him with long wingspans and he'll struggle against them. Afflalo, Matt Barnes, Battier did a great job defensively on Kobe simply because they have Kobe's numbers, not because they were GREAT defensive players. Its all about matchups.

Who said what I posted had ANYTHING to do with Kobe? in fact my inclusion of Dontay Jones had more to do with his work on C3p not kobe as Paul is more of a PERIMETER Player ...you do know what the word means. I did not say WING defender but either way i still sTAND by my post ...

But glad your infatuation with Kobe comes up in a Bulls cavs discussion ...

Do you keep a bottle of Jergen's on your nightstand for when you dream of kobe at night?

[oh crap]

Lebron is a better player than what people gives him credit for.




:lmao:lmao

Riiight. The most hyped up, talked about and praised nba player ever is underrated. Doesn't do much for your argument, friendo.

[Killakobe81]

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

1 - Mike Brown is an excellent defensive coach.

2 - You're completely oblivious to how much the game has changed with the new defensive rules. The 91 Bulls never faced the kind of defence NBA teams play these days.

3 - Do you know that perfect score of 10 Nadia Comaneci had in the Olympics? The routine she executed to get that score is now replicated by thousands of 9/10 years old gymnasts around the world. Daly's Jordan Rules are Comaneci's '79 routine. It was pretty amazing - 20 years ago. Now it's pretty ordinary. Mike Brown is way more sophisticated from a strategic point of view than '91 Phil Jackson and it's not even close. Or than Red Auerback in '59.

That is one point you do get right Mike Brown is GRREAT DEFENSIVE coach in fact his defnse was SO IMPRESSIVE that the offensive mastermind Stan Van Gundy was able to torch it in 4 out of 6 4th quarters last season.

Seriously though he is a good defensive coach.

But back to my point. I agree defense has evolved the game always does. But i can argue the other way the bulls shooters shot from a REAL 3 point line. Were better pure shoters and faced hand checking. From a Pistons team with Rodman (when he played GREAT defense still), Salley as shot blocker, Dumars a really god perimeter defender and Mahorn a GREAT post defender ... Defensively that team was MUCH better than this year Cavs ...

Interesting reply but how does that even come close to proving the original argument who would win a series?

You argue Lebron is a top notch defender, will cancel out the GOAT, Brown is a great defensive coach blah, blah blah but none of that is convincing me but nice try.

I bet you were one of teh ones that argued USC was one of teh greatest teams ever BEFORE the rosebowl vs. Texas ...

[Killakobe81]

For much the same reason Phil Jackson doesn't do it with Kobe or Pop doesn't do it with Duncan, until late in the fourth quarter of close games. You don't exhaust your offensive superstar by making him play the best players on the opposing team for the full 48 minutes. You don't want them to exert more energy than they have to on defense and you don't want them getting into foul trouble. It's the reason why the Lakers have acquired guys like Ariza and Artest so Kobe doesn't have to do it. It's the reason Pop will often put Duncan on the weaker front court player on the opposing team to start the game.

I think you're getting confused with LeBron's ability to defend and his need to defend. His team is pretty good, you know. He doesn't have to play shut-down defender on most nights. But when he does, he will, especially late in games. I'm not one claiming LeBron is a top 3 perimeter defender. I wouldn't go that far. But, he's certainly not a mediocre or average perimeter defender, as has been suggested by some in this thread.

Let's put it to you this way. Say you're the coach of the Cavaliers. They're up by 1 point against a good team with a great offensive perimeter player with 15 seconds left in the game. Whoever it is against, Kobe, Wade, Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy, Carmelo, Paul Pierce... whoever. You're the head coach. Again, 15 seconds left and the Cavs up by 1 point. Are you going to put LeBron on those guys or Delonte West?

Exactly.

Good post. But review the thread ...i said that. All im saying is that those who claim he is a great perimeter defender are overstating the facts. I said for ONE posession i would want Kobe, lebron or Dwade ...

But for a game i would choose a more defensive minded player. My point about Lebron not gaurding the best players was that if he was on a consistent basis if he was THAT good a smart coach would do that with all the talent on the team now ...but the facts are that a wEst or Parker will defend better because of their MINDSET ...they dont defend they don't play ...but at least you sent and intelligent reply ...i respect that.

[mogrovejo]

That is one point you do get right Mike Brown is GRREAT DEFENSIVE coach in fact his defnse was SO IMPRESSIVE that the offensive mastermind Stan Van Gundy was able to torch it in 4 out of 6 4th quarters last season.

Seriously though he is a good defensive coach.

Yes he is. And the Cavs lost the series to Orlando due to lack of offensive diversity.


But back to my point. I agree defense has evolved the game always does. But i can argue the other way the bulls shooters shot from a REAL 3 point line.

What the heck does this mean?


Were better pure shoters and faced hand checking. From a Pistons team with Rodman (when he played GREAT defense still), Salley as shot blocker, Dumars a really god perimeter defender and Mahorn a GREAT post defender ... Defensively that team was MUCH better than this year Cavs ...

Interesting reply but how does that even come close to proving the original argument who would win a series?

You argue Lebron is a top notch defender, will cancel out the GOAT, Brown is a great defensive coach blah, blah blah but none of that is convincing me but nice try.

You have some serious reading comprehension problems. Here's what I wrote:


I think the Cavs would put a fight but their second best player is Anderson Varejao and that would probably condemn them to a 5 games loss.

Are you a fan of the Lakers or something?


You argue Lebron is a top notch defender, will cancel out the GOAT, Brown is a great defensive coach blah, blah blah but none of that is convincing me but nice try.

I bet you were one of teh ones that argued USC was one of teh greatest teams ever BEFORE the rosebowl vs. Texas ...

What the fuck are you talking about? Rosebowl? I've only heard about Rosebud. It was a sled, btw.

[Killakobe81]

Let me summarize for you ...
1. What the real 3 point line means they moved it in ...mid 90's to combat the great thugging defense of that era. The point being is you say the game has change with your weak ass gymnast analogy and the '59 Celts ...

Im saying the rule changes have benefited modern teams. The first Bulls run was at the end of the NBA's best decade better competition still under the old rules.

2. Yes I am a laker fan. But i was talking about the Cavs and Bulls (you i guess are a Celts fan) WTF does that have to do with THIS argument?

3. I gave you a list of ALl the past 30 champs and almost all have at least 2 fuure HOF'er and some had 3 ...
You contered with the 94 Rox great point they the 2004 pistons and MAYBE last years lakers are the only examples ...every other time I was right in 30 years ...


Look i enjoy good debates and we are arguing a hypothetical in both cases.
No way I can prove Bulls would win or that Lebron is not a great defender or that Mike Brown is a crappy offensive coach ...

Even if i i consider myself informed it's still ONLY an OPINION as is yours ...this was fun no hard feelings mojogrove ...

[mogrovejo]

LOL!

Look, they shortened the 3 point line in 94 or 95, but 3 seasons later it was reverted to the original distance, 23-9. The 3pt line the '91 Bulls played with was exactly the same the Cavs currently play with. New rules benefited modern teams? That doesn't even make sense, in any given year everybody plays under the same rules (theoretically at least).

Being a Lakers fan gives you a justification for your difficulties to understand simple things, that was all.

It's unfortunate you're definitely unable to understand how your "2 HoFers even if one isn't even playing at an All-Star level" argument is so silly.

[TheGreatest23]

We all know that i am better then Jordan. Too bad my teammates arnt that good.

[ChrisRichards]

We all know that i am better then Jordan. Too bad my teammates arnt that good.
You forgot something here...

[ChrisRichards]

Do you keep a bottle of Jergen's on your nightstand for when you dream of kobe at night?
I use KY jelly.

[Killakobe81]

LOL!

Look, they shortened the 3 point line in 94 or 95, but 3 seasons later it was reverted to the original distance, 23-9. The 3pt line the '91 Bulls played with was exactly the same the Cavs currently play with. New rules benefited modern teams? That doesn't even make sense, in any given year everybody plays under the same rules (theoretically at least).

Being a Lakers fan gives you a justification for your difficulties to understand simple things, that was all.

It's unfortunate you're definitely unable to understand how your "2 HoFers even if one isn't even playing at an All-Star level" argument is so silly.

Wasnt just talking about 3 point line ...hand checking being able to use zone
My point was that the Bulls faced tougher competition, tougher rules and played and faced better defense ...

What does me being a Laker fan have to do with my basketball acumen?
You are a dimwitted Celts fan but yet I dont hold it against you. Tried to end this with class but of course ...you tried to drag me in the mud with sily insults but what else would I expect from a Boston fan?

Good luck in the post-season hope to see you in june.

[jdev82]

pip would shut lebron down.

[hitmanyr2k]

pip would shut lebron down.

Pippen wouldn't be able to shut him down. The best he can do with Lebron is make him work extra hard for his points and wear him down over the course of the game...use his length and quickness to deny Lebron the ball, make him shoot jumpers as opposed to giving up layups or fouls for free throws. Jordan and Pippen had the foot speed to cut off Lebron's first step. Pippen would usually try to beat the ball-handler to the spot and take the charge but with Lebron's star power I doubt Pip would get the call lol. And since Lebron isn't much of a post player yet neither Pippen or Jordan wouldn't have to worry about him in that regard.

On the flipside Lebron would also have to guard either Jordan or Pippen throughout the game instead of conserving energy for offense. I don't think they would be able to avoid it since the matchups wouldn't favor it.

Mo on Paxson
Parker on Jordan
Lebron on Pippen
Jamison on Grant
Shaq on Cartwright

Unless they switch it up and put Jamison on Pippen and Lebron on Grant.