Rolling Stone: Kobe Bryant is 'the third-best guy' behind Durant

[duncan228]

Rolling Stone: Kobe Bryant is 'the third-best guy' behind Durant (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Rolling-Stone-Kobe-Bryant-is-the-third-best-gu;_ylt=AqE.7gwkh1ykG89RnT9p4BG8vLYF?urn=nba,23017 1)
By Trey Kerby
Ball Don't Lie

Can we all agree that LeBron James is the best player in the league? No, we can't? Fair enough. But let's just pretend like he is for the time being, even though it wouldn't really be pretending.

Anyways, if we're saying LeBron is the best player in the league, that means there's a battle for the next in line. And while it doesn't have the allure or cache of gunnin' for that No. 1 spot, it's still pretty intense.

A lot of people will say it's Kobe Bryant. And there'd surely be votes for a healthy Chris Paul. But according to Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi (http://lakers.freedomblogging.com/2010/03/18/move-over-kobe-kevins-here/31991/), it's Kevin Durant, and it's not even close.


Kobe in reality has been no better than the second-best player in the league for about 18 months now — LeBron James passed him somewhere back in '08. He still had a legit claim to Alpha Dog status coming in to this year because he'd just won a championship. But there's a big difference between being "in the conversation" for the top-dog status and being the third-best guy — and one who's getting older. And that's where he is, third, because Durant is suddenly poster-izing the whole league.

Could it be true? Has Kevin Durant really passed up Kobe Bryant in just his third year in the league? Durant scores more on higher shooting percentages while taking less shots. He's also a better rebounder. Not to mention, he's the biggest reason for the Thunder being a playoff team. That's a pretty strong case.

Of course, Kobe's biggest contributions don't always show up in the box score. He's been unstoppable in the clutch this year, and he's rededicated himself to defense. And he's done all this while remaining the main offensive force for the Western Conference's best team. Oh, and he has four championships. That's also a pretty strong case.

When asked about the article (http://lakers.freedomblogging.com/2010/03/23/the-old-kobe-talks-about-the-new-kobe/32225/) by Kevin Ding of the Orange County Register, Kobe was deferential.


The "old Kobe" laughed when he was told about the comparison.

"It's an honor," was Kobe's first response. He then called it "entertaining."

"It's a huge honor. It shows a sign of respect for all the work I put in," Bryant said Monday.

Something tells me Kobe isn't too keen on letting Kevin Durant pass him by, and I'd imagine he's not going to agree that he's even fallen as far as No. 2. Nonetheless, the future's in good hands.

*********************

From The Orange County Register. The Rolling Stone piece is in mogrovejo's post, #9.

Move over, Kobe… Kevin’s here (http://lakers.freedomblogging.com/2010/03/18/move-over-kobe-kevins-here/31991/)
by Janis Carr
OCRegister.com

Everyone has an opinion, and Rolling Stone writer Matt Taibbi’s is this: Oklahoma City’s Kevin Durant has surpassed Kobe Bryant as the second-best player in the NBA (behind King You-Know-Who James).

Taibbi writes in an article titled, “The New Kobe” that Bryant has been “no better than the second-best player in the league for about 18 months now” but his status is in jeopardy because Durant is “suddenly poster-izing the whole league.”
Guess four championships don’t mean much.

Taibbi went on to say:

“(Durant’s ability) to challenge demented three-faced narcissist Kobe Bryant and the Laker hegemony has been the highlight of the year … The now-inexorable climb down the dominance ladder for a megalomaniac like Kobe is a tale every sports fan outside L.A. can’t help but appreciate …

“Kobe has always been smart and predatory and pathologically driven, and he’s going to maximize every last drop of ability in an attempt to stay on the throne, so the Lakers will hold off the Thunder for a few more years. But the moment is coming when Kobe is going to throw everything he has at Durant, and this wide-eyed, lanky, respectful kid – nothing personal, Mr. Bryant – is going to kick his @$& anyway. That’ll be a delicious moment, and it might even happen this year.” (Sorry, Rolling Stone Magazine doesn’t provide a link to this story).

Don’t count on Durant coming anywhere close to Bryant. Even at 31 years old and with the mileage that comes with 12-plus NBA seasons, Bryant still has more talent and more drive to kick more than one up-and-comers rear end. And do you really think with the Lakers in position to defend their NBA title, Bryant worries about Durant?

[Allanon]

We've heard the whole Kobe is losing a step and all for a few years now.

But reality is Kobe just got #4 and is going for #5 ... and he'll probably get it.

The most important "stat" is that Kobe knows how to win, that's what puts him, Shaq and Duncan above any other player of this generation.

Until somebody can stop Kobe from winning, this debate will continue.

[Baseline]

This is beautiful. "...predatory and pathologically driven..."

That's your boy, Laker fans.

[Ashy Larry]

Durant is nice. 6'11" and just long. Great shot. Dude is well on his way .......

[djohn2oo8]

Laker fans scream BLASPHEMY from the roof tops

[monosylab1k]

Is Kobe a Republican or something?

[JamStone]

It's an interesting proposal. I don't agree with it, but it's not unreasonable.

[The Gemini Method]

Durant has been a beast this year...so you can make an argument for him being no. 2 in the league. But, in the end, who really gives a damn if someone's the supposed alpha dog and such? Other than the MVP, there is little to no importance whatsoever to this mythical ranking system. All I care is that Kobe plays well for my favorite team even if he's the 5th best player in the league.

[mogrovejo]

The New Kobe: Kevin Durant challenging is the highlight of the NBA.
By Matt Taibibbi

It's been a dank NBA season on the whole, with more teams dumping salaries than contending for a title, but a young Oklahoma City Thunder team, built around the amazing Kevin Durant, rising to challenge demented three-faced narcissist Kobe Bryant and the Laker hegemony, has been the highlight of the year.

For the sheer schadenfreude factor alone, this story blows away even Peyton Manning coughing up the SuperBowlwith a game-ending pick, because Manning's only real crime is that he's infuriatingly awesome and does too many commercials. But the now inexorable climb down the dominance ladder for a megalomaniac like Kobe is a tale every sports fan outside LA can't help but appreciate.

Kobe in reality has been no better than the second-best player in the league for about 18 months now - LeBron James passed him somewhere back in '08. He still had a legit claim to Alpha Dog status coming into this year because he'd jsut won a championship. But there's a big difference bbetween being "in the converstaion" for the top-dog status and being the third-best guy - and one who's getting older. And that's where he is, third, because Durant is suddenly poster-izing the whole league. A departure from the Jordan-Kobe high-flyer model, Durant is more like a mutant deadly spider, killing prety with his freakishly long arms, quick feet and deadly stroke. Kevin McHale calles him "the Icicle - long, skinny and coldblooded."

Nobody in the league can guard Durant; a young Kevin Garnett might have had a chance, but even the Pistons-era Dennis Rodman would have had a tought time with this kid, who drains 30-foot threes with the release point of a Hakeem Olajuwon.

Kobe, meanshile, has been playing above the rim less and less for years - has long ago moved into that late-stage Jordan strategy of volume scoring via post-ups and running off picks, anything that doesn't involve rising up and having to land on those knees again. But Kobe has always been smart and predatory and pathological-ly driven, and he's going to maximize every last drop of ability in an attempt to stay on the throne, so the Lakers will hold off the Thunder for a few more years. But the moment is coming when Kobe is going to throw everything he has at Durant, and this wide-eyed, lanky, respectful kid - nothing personal Mr. Bryant - is going to kick his ass anyway. That'll be a delicious moment, and it might even happen this year.

[mogrovejo]

Writers and fans overrating scoring. Yawn.

Howard and Wade are the guys in the tier bellow LBJ. Kobe, Durant and Anthony are better scorers but don't impact the game as deeply as those guys.

[ChrisRichards]

Take the damn homer glasses off and its plain to see. Durant is leading a group of second and third year role players with an unknown coach in the playoffs. They are on pace for a 50+ win season in the West! He's dropping better numbers than Kobe.


Kobe in his prime never led a team to a 50+ season and nothing higher than an 8th seed. Durant is the truth.

[ChrisRichards]

Writers and fans overrating scoring. Yawn.

Howard and Wade are the guys in the tier bellow LBJ. Kobe, Durant and Anthony are better scorers but don't impact the game as deeply as those guys.
I agree on the Howard part but Wade is not doing a lot this year. He seems to be just coasting and is just looking ahead for the offseason.

[Killakobe81]

LOL Lebron is making his case DEFINITELY ...
Durant is agreat scorer but come on ...isnt that the knock on Kobe? Lebron's "overall" game is better?
So why does Durant who is mostly a scorer... get put in #2 status and even if we say Kobe is bottom of teh top 5 why does Durant pass Wade and Melo?

Silly stuff and you guys that are cosigning this ...morons.

[JamStone]

Writers and fans overrating scoring. Yawn.

Howard and Wade are the guys in the tier bellow LBJ. Kobe, Durant and Anthony are better scorers but don't impact the game as deeply as those guys.

It's not just Durant's scoring. Part of it is, but that's not the only thing that has made him so good this season. He doesn't only score more than Kobe but he scores more efficiently. Has better shooting percentages across the board, FG, 3PT, FT. He rebounds better. And his defense has actually been pretty good this season. The Thunder are one of the top defensive teams in the league and Durant's defensive rating is the same as Kobe's. His impact also shows in his better PER and win share statistics. I know those stats aren't perfect but they do give some perspective. At least based on this season, it's not an unreasonable claim. And it certainly isn't only based on overrating his scoring.

[mogrovejo]

LOL Lebron is making his case DEFINITELY ...
Durant is agreat scorer but come on ...isnt that the knock on Kobe? Lebron's "overall" game is better?
So why does Durant who is mostly a scorer... get put in #2 status and even if we say Kobe is bottom of teh top 5 why does Durant pass Wade and Melo?

Silly stuff and you guys that are cosigning this ...morons.

That's exactly my point. I'm not co-signing the author POV. I think he overrates both Durant and Kobe. None of them is the 2nd best player in the game.

[mogrovejo]

It's not just Durant's scoring. Part of it is, but that's not the only thing that has made him so good this season. He doesn't only score more than Kobe but he scores more efficiently. Has better shooting percentages across the board, FG, 3PT, FT. He rebounds better. And his defense has actually been pretty good this season. The Thunder are one of the top defensive teams in the league and Durant's defensive rating is the same as Kobe's. His impact also shows in his better PER and win share statistics. I know those stats aren't perfect but they do give some perspective. At least based on this season, it's not an unreasonable claim. And it certainly isn't only based on overrating his scoring.
You misunderstood my post.

[SomeCallMeTim]

This is beautiful. "...predatory and pathologically driven..."

That's your boy, Laker fans.

And when this is referencing basketball the problem is...?

Thing is, it's accurate. It also describes to a T players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc. I.e. "winners." These guys destroy, they are built to destroy, that's why they helped win so many championships. A lot of adjectives like "nasty," "cold-blooded," "ruthless," and labels like "killer" and "assassin" get thrown around about all these guys... I can't see how this is inaccurate nor offensive.

[JamStone]

You misunderstood my post.

Sorry. That's my fault.

But you can replace Kobe's name with Dwyane Wade and it would still apply.

As for Dwight Howard, I won't say I completely agree but I can understand that argument because his profound impact on the defensive end. But then you weigh his liabilities on offense even though he still scores 18-20 ppg, he offers no play-making and his free throw shooting has often hurt his team, bringing some negative impact to his team.

And, look at PER and win shares (again I admit not the perfect barometer but at least it's some tangible statistical evidence rather than just saying "because that's what I see when I watch the games") and Durant has better PER and win share stats than Dwight Howard.

I think you underestimate Durant's impact on the game and see only his scoring, strangely the same criticism you are making of others with regards to Howard and Wade.

[Killakobe81]

This is beautiful. "...predatory and pathologically driven..."

That's your boy, Laker fans.

Invest in a dictionary ...predatory and Pathologically driven are not negative words by themselves. I know this guy slammed Kobe and that's his right.

But a "mamba" is predatory and in a killer I want that trait. IF Kobe is "pathologically" driven to be the best and get more titles that is great Im all for it.

Now the ego thing is true and the only real negative listed. Kobe's ego helps him be the best closer but also leads him to take and make and miss some tough shots ....

Kobe is the Kanye west hated loved rubs some the wrong way HUGE ego ...but cant deny his talent or drive ...

Article doesnt upset me it's an opinion. Lost in teh negative focus Kobe was the best player before the last 18 months ...so if you buy this horseshit you must accept that as well ...

[SomeCallMeTim]

But the moment is coming when Kobe is going to throw everything he has at Durant, and this wide-eyed, lanky, respectful kid - nothing personal Mr. Bryant - is going to kick his ass anyway. That'll be a delicious moment, and it might even happen this year.

Won't happen this year... Durant could average 40 against LA in a possible PO matchup, but OKC has but a slim chance of the upset.

Besides, they would seldom be matched up, it would be Kobe/Thabo and Artest/Durant most of the time. Not that they still wouldn't be judged head-to-head, but it kinda takes some of the shine off the story.

[ChrisRichards]

LOL Lebron is making his case DEFINITELY ...
Durant is agreat scorer but come on ...isnt that the knock on Kobe? Lebron's "overall" game is better?
So why does Durant who is mostly a scorer... get put in #2 status and even if we say Kobe is bottom of teh top 5 why does Durant pass Wade and Melo?

Silly stuff and you guys that are cosigning this ...morons.
Of course we are morons, eventhough Durant has the better stats, all around game and is leading a young team to the playoffs.:rolleyes

[ChrisRichards]

Ill just ask you this question and answer this with all honestly.



Can this year's Kobe Bryant lead the Thunder to a 50+ win team?

[Killakobe81]

Durant's defense has improved ... amnd he is having a great season but if you guys really believe he is #2 well you can eat some #2 ...

But i like Durant great kid wayyy more likeable than Kobe to the masses. Im glad the league at least has another player to rally behind rather than ALL swinging from LBJ's nuts. Yes Lebron is the best player ...he only needs to win a ring to validate that....
And Kobe can only head down ...is these mythical rankings ...

I am just saying Melo, Wade deserve some respect too and OKC has talent if they keep drafting and trading well (maynor was a steal) I think their future is brighter than the Blazers ...

[duncan228]

Thanks for posting the piece mogrovejo.

[ChrisRichards]

And, look at PER and win shares (again I admit not the perfect barometer but at least it's some tangible statistical evidence rather than just saying "because that's what I see when I watch the games") and Durant has better PER and win share stats than Dwight Howard.


So now advance statistics are yoour friends? How convenient :rolleyes

[Allanon]

But the moment is coming when Kobe is going to throw everything he has at Durant, and this wide-eyed, lanky, respectful kid - nothing personal Mr. Bryant - is going to kick his ass anyway. That'll be a delicious moment, and it might even happen this year.

I like Kevin Durant but come on. :lol

KD hasn't even won 1 game against Kobe...the day he "kicks Kobe's ass" is a looong way off.

[JamStone]

So now advance statistics are yoour friends? How convenient :rolleyes

I don't use it as a crutch and ignore the actual stats like you did.

Edit add: And I admit that it's not the greatest barometer for a statistical argument.

[Killakobe81]

Of course we are morons, eventhough Durant has the better stats, all around game and is leading a young team to the playoffs.:rolleyes

All around game? No. Stats? yes and he should he is younger and should be beating Kobe at scoring his team is not as good.

Do I think Kobe could of done the same? Yes if he was healthy all season why the hell not? they are GOOD team ...

Hollinger will tell you he is better and that is great more power to you and HIM ...

Again doesnt matter to me I like Durant just think you guys are premature ejaculating over him SAME WAY many of you did over Paul.

Kobe was better and still is better than Paul as he is over Durant. But I think durant is closer than Paul was ...and has the chance to be better soon.

[mogrovejo]

Sorry. That's my fault.

But you can replace Kobe's name with Dwyane Wade and it would still apply.

As for Dwight Howard, I won't say I completely agree but I can understand that argument because his profound impact on the defensive end. But then you weigh his liabilities on offense even though he still scores 18-20 ppg, he offers no play-making and his free throw shooting has often hurt his team, bringing some negative impact to his team.

And, look at PER and win shares (again I admit not the perfect barometer but at least it's some tangible statistical evidence rather than just saying "because that's what I see when I watch the games") and Durant has better PER and win share stats than Dwight Howard. His assist rate is 8.3% compared to only 13.4% for Durant (who's a wing, not a post). I don't see much of a difference. And these are tangible numbers (just more deep than the superficial boxscore numbers used in PER and WS).

I think you underestimate Durant's impact on the game and see only his scoring, strangely the same criticism you are making of others with regards to Howard and Wade.

Look at a stat like Wins Produced and Howard tops Durant.

I don't like box-score metrics more or less than I like the box-score. Why use PER or WinShares when one can simply say Durant scores X points, y%FG, etc, etc (or, more economically, "look at their stats")? Never understood that.

Wade is better than Durant at everything besides scoring+shooting (but he draws more fouls). About equal on rebounding. Way better playmaker.

I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. That's nonsense. And he creates enough shots. Heck, he creates 51% of his scoring. Durant? 49%. Howard's assist rate is 9%, Durant's 13% and he's a wing, not a post player. Where's that big difference in shot-creation and playmaking? Not seeing it. And these are tangible numbers (only deeper than the very superficial boxscore numbers used in PER and Winshares).

[Killakobe81]

This thread is high comedy
Let's take a walk down memory lane:

#1 5 years ago muy co-workers: TMAC is better than Kobe. Give TMAC shaq and he will win titles. orlando is just sorry. Ok Tmac gets traded to Rox plays with Yao ....Still waiting to see proof that TMAC is the better player.

A few years BEFORE THAT it was "AI and VC" are better ...look at how they CARRIED LESSOR teams to the playoffs ...(sound familar?)

Kobe is lucky to have Shaq and Phil ....still waiting...

Others that the GENIUSES (moron is not nice) put Roy, Joe Johnson, pierce etc on the lakers they still win the title last year ....

Lebron is the first guy that I have seen who people can make legitimate claims without just PER win share or some other crap ...that I can see is ready to (and has in many ways) replaced Kobe as the best player in the game. Wade is a close 2nd behind but Durant it's too early to go that route ...

But Durant after 2 seasons ...seriously? Again i love Durant. Those like Jamstone that say he may get innjure cuz of his slender frame I argued against that earlier this week. I wannt him to be good and i hope he does pass Kobe soon ...but right now? Moronic.

[Killakobe81]

Look at a stat like Wins Produced and Howard tops Durant.

I don't like box-score metrics more or less than I like the box-score. Why use PER or WinShares when one can simply say Durant scores X points, y%FG, etc, etc (or, more economically, "look at their stats")? Never understood that.

Wade is better than Durant at everything besides scoring+shooting (but he draws more fouls). About equal on rebounding. Way better playmaker.

I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. That's nonsense. And he creates enough shots. Heck, he creates 51% of his scoring. Durant? 49%. Howard's assist rate is 9%, Durant's 13% and he's a wing, not a post player. Where's that big difference in shot-creation and playmaking? Not seeing it. And these are tangible numbers (only deeper than the very superficial boxscore numbers used in PER and Winshares).

Another good post so stats can be used to say Durant is better than kobe but not to say Wade or Howard is better than Durant ...funny stuff.

Thing is Im not mad or butthurt Im sitting at my desk laughing ...much like I did:

LAST year when Roy was better
2 years ago when cp3 Pierce and Joe Johnson was better
before that when TMAC was better
or Vince
or BEFORE that AI ....

LOL you guys should write for the Office ....

[TheMACHINE]

T-mac, Carter, AI, Durant, James, Malone, Barkely, Ewing....

All great players....

[JamStone]

Look at a stat like Wins Produced and Howard tops Durant.

I don't like box-score metrics more or less than I like the box-score. Why use PER or WinShares when one can simply say Durant scores X points, y%FG, etc, etc (or, more economically, "look at their stats")? Never understood that.

Wade is better than Durant at everything besides scoring+shooting (but he draws more fouls). About equal on rebounding. Way better playmaker.

I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. That's nonsense. And he creates enough shots. Heck, he creates 51% of his scoring. Durant? 49%. Howard's assist rate is 9%, Durant's 13% and he's a wing, not a post player. Where's that big difference in shot-creation and playmaking? Not seeing it. And these are tangible numbers (only deeper than the very superficial boxscore numbers used in PER and Winshares).

I'm unfamiliar with "wins produced." Could you provide me a link where I can find those corresponding statistics for all NBA players? I'd be curious to look at that.

And I don't see how 7.4 rebounds per game is "about equal" to 4.7 rebounds per game.

I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. I think there are liabilities in his offensive game. There's a distinction. There have been several instances this season and in the past where Dwight Howard's free throw shooting has been a main reason for his team losing. That's not an opinion, not some metrics statistic. That's has happened. That is a liability. You can argue it's the same for any player missing free throws, but when you're shooting over 10 free throws a game and you're shooting 60% or less, that becomes a bigger issue. Dwight still has issues offensively and that's not based on statistics either. He's a poor passer for as much as he's double-teamed. He still doesn't create for teammates and this 51% of his offense he "creates" for himself is probably skewed. I'd bet a lot of that 51% is from putback dunks. I didn't say Dwight Howard doesn't greatly impact the game. Sure he does.

I just think you're selling players like Durant and Kobe short. Kobe and Durant aren't one-dimensional players who only score. I think it's short-sighted to think that.

[Killakobe81]

but even the Pistons-era Dennis Rodman would have had a tought time with this kid, who drains 30-foot threes with the release point of a Hakeem Olajuwon.
This is the best part of the article. In addition to recognizing Durant's unique gifts... he ALSO mentions Hakeem and THE PISTONS era Rodman ...not the OVERRATED Bulls one ...

Whenm Rodman was the BEST DEFENDER in the NBA ...the Bulls and spurs era Rodman one of the greatest rebounders BUT HIGHLY overrated on defense ...

[mogrovejo]

I'm unfamiliar with "wins produced." Could you provide me a link where I can find those corresponding statistics for all NBA players?

Can't help. Google it.



And I don't see how 7.4 rebounds per game is "about equal" to 4.7 rebounds per game.

rebounds per game is an useless stat. Use rebounding rate and adjust for position.


I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. I think there are liabilities in his offensive game. There's a distinction. There have been several instances this season and in the past where Dwight Howard's free throw shooting has been a main reason for his team losing. That's not an opinion, not some metrics statistic. That's has happened. That is a liability. You can argue it's the same for any player missing free throws, but when you're shooting over 10 free throws a game and you're shooting 60% or less, that becomes a bigger issue. Dwight still has issues offensively and that's not based on statistics either. He's a poor passer for as much as he's double-teamed. He still doesn't create for teammates and this 51% of his offense he "creates" for himself is probably skewed. I'd bet a lot of that 51% is from putback dunks. I didn't say Dwight Howard doesn't greatly impact the game. Sure he does.

And a lot of his assisted shots come from pick'n'roll situations where he's a big part of the shot-creation. Plus, a put-back dunk is no less of a shot-created than a cross-over followed by a baseline fade-way.

ps - ah, of course his free-throw shooting is a weakness. But outside of LBJ every player has weaknesses. Even with that weakness, Howard is an excellent offensive player.



I just think you're selling players like Durant and Kobe short. Kobe and Durant aren't one-dimensional players who only score. I think it's short-sighted to think that.

I never said they were. I just said the only talent they have at LBJ's level is scoring. And a put-back dunk is, for all effects, a shot created by him.

[mogrovejo]

Another good post so stats can be used to say Durant is better than kobe but not to say Wade or Howard is better than Durant ...funny stuff.

Thing is Im not mad or butthurt Im sitting at my desk laughing ...much like I did:

LAST year when Roy was better
2 years ago when cp3 Pierce and Joe Johnson was better
before that when TMAC was better
or Vince
or BEFORE that AI ....

LOL you guys should write for the Office ....

Google strawman argument.

You're inability to defend your point without resorting to refuting fictional points nobody made is truly saddening.

[duncan228]

I'm unfamiliar with "wins produced." Could you provide me a link where I can find those corresponding statistics for all NBA players? I'd be curious to look at that.

Does this help?

Wins Produced vs. Win Score (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/05/26/wins-produced-vs-win-score/)
The Wages of Wins Journal

[mogrovejo]

Does this help?

Wins Produced vs. Win Score (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/05/26/wins-produced-vs-win-score/)
The Wages of Wins Journal

I think he wants the numbers for the players. That's not available, mostly because the formula is still secret.

For the record, Wins Produced is an horrible metric. I'm too lazy to explain why, but trust me. At least PER is just meaningless or, at best, a short-cut for lazy people to use.

[HarlemHeat37]

I believe the talent on teams in today's NBA are better than the teams from earlier in the decade due to being more stacked(not comparing relation to the other teams at the time, just talking about the talent on the teams), but the current top players in the NBA are a lot worse than they were earlier IMO..it's a lot tougher to rank them right now because there's no clear-cut guys other than Lebron..

Kobe has shown his age this season, Howard still has offensive issues(although he's heavily improved to the dismay of many here, particularly Mav fans), Dirk doesn't impact the game in multiple ways, Carmelo doesn't play D and isn't a leader, Paul has been hurt, Wade is having an off year by his standards and he doesn't come out to play every night, Durant hasn't even played in a playoff game..

Ranking these players is extremely tough right now outside of Lebron due to various reasons..

I wouldn't rank Durant ahead of Lebron, Kobe, Wade or Howard, and I'd have to think about it vs. Anthony and Nowitzki, although I'd probably favor him..I'd like to see how he plays in the playoffs before I rank him..

If Wade went hard more often, I'd put him ahead of Kobe, but he hasn't done that this season, and he's been beyond horrible in clutch time too..his mid-range J has disappeared as well..

[JamStone]

Can't help. Google it.

I did. Didn't find an expansive chart/list of all NBA players. That's why I asked you. So how do you know Dwight has a higher wins produced than Durant?



rebounds per game is an useless stat. Use rebounding rate and adjust for position.

Don't need to adjust. They're both perimeter wing players. Should we adjust for height? If you're going to start using qualifiers, then when it comes to assists/play-making, should we adjust assists for position as well? Wade actually plays quite a bit of point guard for the Heat while Kevin Durant doesn't have playmaking responsibilities or responsibilities to initiate the offense like a point guard. Durant's rebounding rate is 10.8% and Wade's is 7.6%. You can adjust what you want. I don't think that's "about equal."




And a lot of his assisted shots come from pick'n'roll situations where he's a big part of the shot-creation.

We'll have to just disagree about Dwight Howard's ability to create offense. I think there are tangible and disconcerting liabilities to his offensive game that really negatively affect the way he could impact the game. In games, his inability to be a dump-down post player who is fed the ball and consistently create a high percentage shot opportunity means he has some holes in his offensive game, liabilities. Now it's not such a big deal because he still scores and scores with a very good FG%. But if you're talking about the best players in the league and you put him in the company of LeBron and Wade ahead of guys like Kobe, Durant, and everyone else in the league, that's something I'd definitely look at to challenge.




I never said they were. I just said the only talent they have at LBJ's level is scoring. And a put-back dunk is, for all effects, a shot created by him.

Forget LeBron for the moment. Me responding to you was about Dwight Howard and Dwyane Wade, not LeBron. It was about you putting the likes of Kobe and Durant a tier below Howard and Wade. That's where your post went. We can look at all the stats we want. We can make opinionated claims based on what we watch in games. That's all good and well. It's just my opinion that your claim that Howard and Wade are in the next group below LeBron and above the likes of Kobe and Durant is short-sighted as it pertains to the impact Kobe and Durant have in games for their respective teams.

And you're right. The putback dunk in actuality is creating offense. I guess I just don't view it in the same way you create offense when you already have possession of the basketball and then you create offense. The putback dunk requires rebounding the ball. In any given game, Dwight may have 4 offensive rebounds, maybe 5 on a good night. Dwight will have somewhere upwards of 30+ touches on offense in a normal game. To me, creating offense in that situation shows a much more meaningful impact on the game.

[ChrisRichards]

I like Kevin Durant but come on. :lol

KD hasn't even won 1 game against Kobe...the day he "kicks Kobe's ass" is a looong way off.
Put Kobe with the Thunder and put Durant with the Lakers and we'll see whose ass is going to kicked out. Bryant is a great player but I hate it when people use this logic. Durant is just unfortunate right now not to have the same talent as Bryant.

[ChrisRichards]

I don't use it as a crutch and ignore the actual stats like you did.

Edit add: And I admit that it's not the greatest barometer for a statistical argument.
I dont ignore stats, i just put more weight in advance statististics when dealing with a players efficiency.

[mogrovejo]

I did. Didn't find an expansive chart/list of all NBA players. That's why I asked you. So how do you know Dwight has a higher wins produced than Durant?

Because I know how the formula works.





Don't need to adjust. They're both perimeter wing players.

Wade isn't exactly a wing. Durant spent 7% of his time at the 4.


Should we adjust for height? If you're going to start using qualifiers, then when it comes to assists/play-making, should we adjust assists for position as well? Wade actually plays quite a bit of point guard for the Heat while Kevin Durant doesn't have playmaking responsibilities or responsibilities to initiate the offense like a point guard. Durant's rebounding rate is 10.8% and Wade's is 7.6%. You can adjust what you want. I don't think that's "about equal."

Yes it is.


We'll have to just disagree about Dwight Howard's ability to create offense.

You're disagreeing with the numbers, not with me. 20ppg, extremely efficient and less than half of his shots are assisted.

You're probably confusing aesthetics with shot-creation.


I think there are tangible and disconcerting liabilities to his offensive game that really negatively affect the way he could impact the game. In games, his inability to be a dump-down post player who is fed the ball and consistently create a high percentage shot opportunity means he has some holes in his offensive game, liabilities. Now it's not such a big deal because he still scores and scores with a very good FG%. But if you're talking about the best players in the league and you put him in the company of LeBron and Wade ahead of guys like Kobe, Durant, and everyone else in the league, that's something I'd definitely look at to challenge.

This "he's not perfect" argument isn't worth an answer unless you're saying that the other guys don't have holes in their games.


And you're right. The putback dunk in actuality is creating offense. I guess I just don't view it in the same way you create offense when you already have possession of the basketball and then you create offense.

How can you create a shot without already having possession? And an offensive rebounding doesn't equate to gaining a possession.

You may "not view it" in the same way but that's merely a bias in favour of more eye-pleasurable stuff than putbacks. As I've said, it's merely an aesthetic issue.


The putback dunk requires rebounding the ball. In any given game, Dwight may have 4 offensive rebounds, maybe 5 on a good night. Dwight will have somewhere upwards of 30+ touches on offense in a normal game. To me, creating offense in that situation shows a much more meaningful impact on the game.

What?

[mogrovejo]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:83vn9WzuG4xi7M:http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/370/Figure_Skating_001.jpg!=http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:C1M_coWWbXHdxM:http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/NGKids/Image/basketball_lg.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:lJt7qNQW8WzLSM:http://www.usfsa.org/content/skating_mag_2003_feb_cvr_large.jpg!=http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:i_bcDZu400MeAM:http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/b/basketball_scoreboard_standard-184448-1230568599.jpeg

[KSeal]

Kobe has small hands.

[JamStone]

Because I know how the formula works.

So explain it to me because I'm curious.




Wade isn't exactly a wing. Durant spent 7% of his time at the 4.

And that's why Durant is a better rebounder.



Yes it is.

Disagree.



You're disagreeing with the numbers, not with me. 20ppg, extremely efficient and less than half of his shots are assisted.

You're probably confusing aesthetics with shot-creation.

I'm disagreeing with his impact on offense comparative to other great players in the league. You're the one who made the claim that he's one of the top 3 players in the game, as it pertains to "impact" on the game. Well, his impact on offense compared to other great players in the league isn't on par. It's not aesthetics. It's his actual impact on offense. When's the last time a player who was considered a top 3 player in the league didn't even average 20 ppg? There are holes in his offensive game. In terms of big picture, it doesn't matter. If you're getting into a discussion of top 3 players in the game, I think it's absolutely a pertinent point.




This "he's not perfect" argument isn't worth an answer unless you're saying that the other guys don't have holes in their games.

No player is perfect. But earlier in this thread, you made the suggestion that after LeBron, Wade and Howard are in a tier above any other players in the league. Now, if we get into talking about the best players in the league, critical analysis of Dwight Howard's lack of polish and ability to score at an elite level absolutely enters the discussion.




How can you create a shot without already having possession? And an offensive rebounding doesn't equate to gaining a possession.

You may "not view it" in the same way but that's merely a bias in favour of more eye-pleasurable stuff than putbacks. As I've said, it's merely an aesthetic issue.

An offensive rebound isn't guaranteed on an offensive possession. In fact, on average, an offensive rebound occurs approximately once every 10 possessions. Basically, you can't count on getting an offensive rebound as a main way to create offense.



What?

For Dwight Howard, since he'll get about 30+ touches a game out of offensive sets and about 4 offensive rebounds a game, the impact of the offensive rebound is much less than getting possession of the basketball in the low post and trying to create from that situation. Dwight Howard's inability to create consistently high percentage shot opportunities out of the low post is a liability that make a more significant impact in a negative way than the 4 or 5 offensive rebounds impact the game in a positive way.

[mogrovejo]

So explain it to me because I'm curious.

I can give you a short explanation, but that's all: It's a boxscore based metric like PER with theoretically and regression derived linear weights. So boxscore componentes are weighted differently than PER or NBA EFf. or Winshares or etc. Buy the book or read Berri's blog if you want to know more, I don't even care about the metric (or any other).



And that's why Durant is a better rebounder.

Disagree.

I'm disagreeing with his impact on offense comparative to other great players in the league. You're the one who made the claim that he's one of the top 3 players in the game, as it pertains to "impact" on the game. Well, his impact on offense compared to other great players in the league isn't on par. It's not aesthetics. It's his actual impact on offense. When's the last time a player who was considered a top 3 player in the league didn't even average 20 ppg? There are holes in his offensive game. In terms of big picture, it doesn't matter. If you're getting into a discussion of top 3 players in the game, I think it's absolutely a pertinent point.

No player is perfect. But earlier in this thread, you made the suggestion that after LeBron, Wade and Howard are in a tier above any other players in the league. Now, if we get into talking about the best players in the league, critical analysis of Dwight Howard's lack of polish and ability to score at an elite level absolutely enters the discussion.

Sure, he isn't as good offensively as other players. Howard is a very different player than the guards, for obvious reasons. What's exactly the point? I dont' think a player has to be a dominant scorer league-wide to be a top-3 player in the NBA, at least nowadays.


An offensive rebound isn't guaranteed on an offensive possession. In fact, on average, an offensive rebound occurs approximately once every 10 possessions. Basically, you can't count on getting an offensive rebound as a main way to create offense.

Great, but why are you bringing Jeff Foster to this discussion?



For Dwight Howard, since he'll get about 30+ touches a game out of offensive sets and about 4 offensive rebounds a game, the impact of the offensive rebound is much less than getting possession of the basketball in the low post and trying to create from that situation. Dwight Howard's inability to create consistently high percentage shot opportunities out of the low post is a liability that make a more significant impact in a negative way than the 4 or 5 offensive rebounds impact the game in a positive way.

Man, I can't use every number that I have available. Howard isnt' Olajuwon or something, but the idea that Howard can't create efficient scoring opportunities is just a myth. Strike a deal with Sinergy or, if you want to save some money, put 100 hours of film from Howard's game together and chart all his touches. You'll see your opinion will change in a hurry.

[JamStone]

Why would you bring up "wins produced" and even tell me to look at "wins produced" and when I ask for you to provide a link or explanation, you can't provide a link and you give a vague explanation that tells me basically nothing about the stat?

Why did you tell me to look at wins produced in the first place if that's the case?

[PGDynasty24]

LOL rolling stone. Is Sports Illustrated going to do a piece on why Drake is better than Kanye West. WTF is this shit

[mogrovejo]

Why would you bring up "wins produced" and even tell me to look at "wins produced" and when I ask for you to provide a link or explanation, you can't provide a link and you give a vague explanation that tells me basically nothing about the stat?

I thought I explained why: to make the point why bringing up PER or Winshare is a futile exercise. It depends on the weights. Those metrics mean as much as the weights you're using. None of them can teal you nearly as much as the stats one can find on ESPN or basketball-reference.

The link was provided by duncan228.

Here's some more links anyway:

http://www.wagesofwins.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Wins-Measure-Stanford-Business/dp/0804758441

[Frenzy]

I think the guy writing the article is just anxious to see another star. Of course the fans don't want to admit kobe is getting old. But he is.. He plays half games sometimes and lets the "team" play. Good role. But some fans would be like "oh no he can't be stopped he is just toying with the opponent".... Seriously?! the cocky kobe who lives for the spot light? I think not.... maybe the guy is tired and getting old. It's well known kobe likes to play on his words. Mess with the media sorta speak. He is getting up there in age....but odds are that's not what he would have the fans think,much less his opponents.

[Killakobe81]

I think the guy writing the article is just anxious to see another star. Of course the fans don't want to admit kobe is getting old. But he is.. He plays half games sometimes and lets the "team" play. Good role. But some fans would be like "oh no he can't be stopped he is just toying with the opponent".... Seriously?! the cocky kobe who lives for the spot light? I think not.... maybe the guy is tired and getting old. It's well known kobe likes to play on his words. Mess with the media sorta speak. He is getting up there in age....but odds are that's not what he would have the fans think,much less his opponents.

he is getting older ... he is not as explosive as he once was ...ANYONE can see that ...

and i hope my posts did not seem like i was taking aNYTHING away from Durant ... I think he is top 5 already behind Lebron, Howard kobe Wade with him and melo at the 5th spot ...but if forced to choose I would give melo the edge because hs post game is better and he has done it longer ...

I think the writer is right it wont be long before he passes Kobe but when he does he needs to pass those other guys as well ...to dismiss them is a disservice to those guys more than kobe. Kobe has been the best for a while now he is not ...no harm in that.

[ezau]

Couldn't care less about the league's number twos. It's good to hear that some Laker fans admit that James is already the league's best player

[KSeal]

I don't think there is a clear number two. LeBron is one. Then Wade, Kobe, Durant etc. You can make a case for a lot of them.

[Killakobe81]

Couldn't care less about the league's number twos. It's good to hear that some Laker fans admit that James is already the league's best player

why good? I said it last year ...all Lebron needs is a ring to validate him as the best anyone can see that but i dont think thegap is as wide as some think ...

[cobbler]

I don't care if you call Kobe the 20th best player in the league. All I care about is the :lobt: and he's a winner.

If you have ever played or been involved in sports at any level much less the elite, you know there are players across the board statwise that are just "winners". So you all can have your Lebron's, Melo's, and Durant's and I'll take the Wade's and Kobe's.

Take Fisher for example. Not going to the HOF. Never will be mentioned as one of the great PG's. Statistically average. But he's a winner and he comes up big when needed. So many statboys look at the boxscore rather than actually watching the games and stats do not show heart, desire, determination, hustle etc. All attributes that I would place equal to or even higher than effeciency and advance stats.

Watch the games not the box scores.

[ezau]

I don't care if you call Kobe the 20th best player in the league. All I care about is the :lobt: and he's a winner.

If you have ever played or been involved in sports at any level much less the elite, you know there are players across the board statwise that are just "winners". So you all can have your Lebron's, Melo's, and Durant's and I'll take the Wade's and Kobe's.

Take Fisher for example. Not going to the HOF. Never will be mentioned as one of the great PG's. Statistically average. But he's a winner and he comes up big when needed. So many statboys look at the boxscore rather than actually watching the games and stats do not show heart, desire, determination, hustle etc. All attributes that I would place equal to or even higher than effeciency and advance stats.

Watch the games not the box scores.

Fisher rode the coattails of Shaq in the early 2000s and not it's Kobe. The man is just lucky to play alongside two Hall-of-Famers his entire career. Where was that "winner" mentality when he was with the Jazz? He can't wait to pack his bags for LA while using his daughter as an excuse

[ezau]

why good? I said it last year ...all Lebron needs is a ring to validate him as the best anyone can see that but i dont think thegap is as wide as some think ...

Agree on that. The gap isn't as wide, but Lebron is still going to get better, while Kobe has pretty much reached his ceiling.

[cobbler]

Fisher rode the coattails of Shaq in the early 2000s and not it's Kobe. The man is just lucky to play alongside two Hall-of-Famers his entire career. Where was that "winner" mentality when he was with the Jazz? He can't wait to pack his bags for LA while using his daughter as an excuse

Apparently you didnt watch the Jazz play much. He was the starter in front of DWill.

Yes, he played alongside two hall of famers. And those two would be short a couple of LOB's without his heroics. ie... WINNING ways.

Bringing up the daughter thing is nothing short of bush league. It has been explained so many times what took place. That you choose to ignore reality just displays your ignorance more than anything else.

[ezau]

Apparently you didnt watch the Jazz play much. He was the starter in front of DWill.

Yes, he played alongside two hall of famers. And those two would be short a couple of LOB's without his heroics. ie... WINNING ways.

Bringing up the daughter thing is nothing short of bush league. It has been explained so many times what took place. That you choose to ignore reality just displays your ignorance more than anything else.

Thing is, Fisher is one of the most overrated role players of all time. Sure he made several big shots his entire career, but he doesn't deserve all the credit that he's getting. And while we're at it, are you telling me now that since Fisher has won championships, he's better than Lebron? You gotta be kidding me

[cobbler]

Thing is, Fisher is one of the most overrated role players of all time. Sure he made several big shots his entire career, but he doesn't deserve all the credit that he's getting. And while we're at it, are you telling me now that since Fisher has won championships, he's better than Lebron? You gotta be kidding me

Where in my post did I say Fisher is better than Lebron? I'm baffled how you could come up with that out of anything I posted.

You can call him overrated. Who cares? Fact is... he has come up with some very big shots to win huge games that led to championships that would not have been won without them. That's a winner in my book. Just like Horry. Good role player, not a superstar, but a winner when the cards are on the table.

[namlook]

Thing is, Fisher is one of the most overrated role players of all time. Sure he made several big shots .....

Making shots under pressure is a lot harder than you think. Fish has ice water in his veins. He was also a big reason the Lakers set an NBA record going 15-1 in the playoffs. He was unconscious from 3 during that run.

[alchemist]

not even Kevin Durant's mother buys this shit.

[alchemist]

As far as the debate on Fisher goes, I would love to have the muthafucker on my team. He doesn't have the talent of a Reggie, Kobe or MJ but he's from the same bloodline, dude takes no mercy and will take a squat on your teams soul with those 3pt daggers.

[BRHornet45]

sons finally a decent article that isn't drinking that NBA/ESPN kool-aid. I'll give them props for not bowing down to the mainstream media's demand to put him at #1, but truth be told Kobe isn't even in the top 15 now days.

[ezau]

Durant's ceiling is crazy. ESPN/NBA has been feeding everybody that Kobe's still the league's best player. I think it's fair to say that he's slowly but surely declining, all the NBA seasons that he has played are finally taking their toll on his legs.

[rhyputa]

lol now it's durant to compare with

[ezau]

lol now it's durant to compare with

coz he's no longer good enough to be compared to James. It's as simple as that

[mogrovejo]

I don't care if you call Kobe the 20th best player in the league. All I care about is the :lobt: and he's a winner.

If you have ever played or been involved in sports at any level much less the elite, you know there are players across the board statwise that are just "winners". So you all can have your Lebron's, Melo's, and Durant's and I'll take the Wade's and Kobe's.

Take Fisher for example. Not going to the HOF. Never will be mentioned as one of the great PG's. Statistically average. But he's a winner and he comes up big when needed. So many statboys look at the boxscore rather than actually watching the games and stats do not show heart, desire, determination, hustle etc. All attributes that I would place equal to or even higher than effeciency and advance stats.

Watch the games not the box scores.

Kobe won 1 championship as the best player in his team. And only when surrounded by a terrific supporting cast. Stop talking about him as he's Bill Russell redux. Plus, you shouldn't be denigrating Jerry West like that.

[mogrovejo]

coz he's no longer good enough to be compared to James. It's as simple as that
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-NEW_lF0NmGIOM:http://queroficarrico.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/2008.jpg

[duncan228]

Ellis better than LeBron? (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer032610&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
Marc J. Spears

While Rolling Stone recently declared Kevin Durant better than Kobe Bryant, Warriors guard Monta Ellis has his own opinion on who should be ranked as the NBA’s three best players.

“I’m going to say LeBron James [third],” Ellis said recently. “He can do it all, pass, score, defend, block shots. No. 2, I would have to say, me. I can do a whole lot of things: defend, score, make passes, do whatever I need to do.

“No. 1, I’d say Kobe Bryant. There isn’t one player that can stop Kobe one-on-one. He has a lot of stuff. He can defend. And of course, he won four championships.”