Man...

[Yonivore]

...we are so fucked.

[Buddy Holly]

Not really.

[MiamiHeat]

get fucking real

this country has been fucked for a long time. it's been on this path for a few decades now.

the good thing is that american can fix itself due to the election process. get some good people in there and they can turn this shit around.

[ElNono]

You can find solace on the fact we still have the most nukes... so, not all is lost.. yet

[EmptyMan]

Other than the nuke threat, we have it great compared to others who have lived in the past.

[Blake]

...we are so fucked.

at least now you'll have healthcare to help your ass heal

[DMX7]

If by "we", you mean republicans... Then yes, you're fucked.

[MannyIsGod]

I just hope the GOP keeps bitching about how the sky is falling. When we wake up in a year and everything is fine I'm sure that will do wonders for their credibility.

[EmptyMan]

A year, we will still be fine.

10 years from now? Our predicament will eventually catch up to us. You cannot push off the inevitable forever. The more you do, the harder it will hit when it hits.

[boutons_deux]

aka, the Yoni shitstorm of ankle-biting and scare-mongering, yawn.

Like the Repugs, Yoni has NO solutions to the shithole that "free market", conservatism, and corporate/capitalist predations have rammed the USA into.

[Duff McCartney]

http://checkthemeaning00.fileave.com/pierce.jpg


We'll get through it...and we did.


http://checkthemeaning00.fileave.com/andrew_johnson.jpg


We'll get through it...and we did.


http://checkthemeaning00.fileave.com/President-George-W-Bush.jpg


We'll get through it...and we did.

[panic giraffe]

seriously chicken little, the sky isn't falling.

if you think the biggest threat to us is nuclear war, then you're still living in the reagan era.

the biggest threat to america is losing our standing as a economic power house, the third world rapidly becoming industrialized, etc. and we can't fix that with bombs, we need books.

[boutons_deux]

"biggest threat to america is ..."

... is Americans.

[panic giraffe]

"biggest threat to america is ..."

... is Americans.


sad but true. and yet hiliarious.

[Duff McCartney]

the biggest threat to america is losing our standing as a economic power house, the third world rapidly becoming industrialized, etc. and we can't fix that with bombs, we need books.

How is that a threat? That's not a threat, that's the natural order of things the way they've always been. Just like Spain and Portugal are no longer economic powerhouses, and how Britain is no longer one, the same shall happen to us.

You can't stop people who've lived all their lives being force fed capitalism and free markets and prosperity, and then consider them a threat when they become good at it and build up their own nations.

[Wild Cobra]

the biggest threat to america is losing our standing as a economic power house, the third world rapidly becoming industrialized, etc. and we can't fix that with bombs, we need books.
No, we need to stop taxing productivity so it comes back to America.

[Wild Cobra]

"biggest threat to america is ..."

... is Americans.
Bullshit.

Anti-Americans like yourself who spit on the original concept of American and our constitution.

[ElNono]

No, we need to stop taxing productivity so it comes back to America.

And lower our standards of living... and be willing to work the shitty jobs... etc, etc, etc...

[Nbadan]

Yep, hard to compete against countries that pay less than a dollar an hour, no matter how much regulation you get rid off - besides as the S and L scandal, then the Enron Scandal, Bernie Madoff, and now the housing busts show, there can be a very productive purpose for regulation and oversight...

[Wild Cobra]

And lower our standards of living... and be willing to work the shitty jobs... etc, etc, etc...
How do you figure?

If we stop taxing the industries that provide jobs, then we will have jobs return here. On top of that, competition because of supply and demand for employees will raise our standard of living. Not lower it.

You must be talking about an assumed elimination or welfare.

[Nbadan]

Haven't we learned anything from PF? ...to my GOP cohorts..

...how super-powers really collapse...


_0v07InoFiU

wBkTUzKAiXQ

[Nbadan]

2tHk9Q3Fv6g

[Nbadan]

RD9isFLafWY

[Nbadan]

kEe1nWxGb5s

[Nbadan]

AMZ3qU5Ksgc

[Nbadan]

3HYgf7aAkbY

[ElNono]

How do you figure?

Are you willing to work for $0.50/hour sewing shoes?


If we stop taxing the industries that provide jobs, then we will have jobs return here. On top of that, competition because of supply and demand for employees will raise our standard of living. Not lower it.

Maybe in your fantasy world. In reality, even today, and even with the taxes the way they are, you have millions of illegals in this country doing work that nobody else wants to do. They live 10 in a 2 room house, and are entirely ok with it. They make enough to send money back to their families in their respective countries.
There are plenty of jobs here for those willing and able to live under those conditions. Not everybody can be a manager.
As far as outsourcing goes, taxes have very little to do with it at all. It's simply cheaper to hire an Indian willing to operate a phone for $3/hour, which is plenty for them to live over there, but basically impossible to make a living here in the US. Technology is what made this possible, not high taxation.


You must be talking about an assumed elimination or welfare.

No, I'm talking about the real world. You know, 'globalization' and all that jazz...

[greyforest]

the good thing is that american can fix itself due to the election process. get some good people in there and they can turn this shit around.

rofl

[Wild Cobra]

Are you willing to work for $0.50/hour sewing shoes?

It wouldn't work that way.


Maybe in your fantasy world. In reality, even today, and even with the taxes the way they are, you have millions of illegals in this country doing work that nobody else wants to do. They live 10 in a 2 room house, and are entirely ok with it. They make enough to send money back to their families in their respective countries.

I am sick and tired of you idiots saying they are jobs nobody wants to do. Supply and demand of labor fixes the problem, but we have an excess of low skilled labor because we are not enforcing our immigration laws. The fix is to make the employers higher legal workers. When they cannot get enough at the low wages they offer, they will have to raise their wages enough to get employees.


There are plenty of jobs here for those willing and able to live under those conditions. Not everybody can be a manager.

No. You are just too hard headed to understand the economy isn't static. It's very dynamic.


As far as outsourcing goes, taxes have very little to do with it at all. It's simply cheaper to hire an Indian willing to operate a phone for $3/hour, which is plenty for them to live over there, but basically impossible to make a living here in the US. Technology is what made this possible, not high taxation.

Sure, some things will not be fixed by lowering taxes. If you want an all or nothing deal, then you will have nothing.


No, I'm talking about the real world. You know, 'globalization' and all that jazz...

No you aren't. Globalization is here to stay and we are not competative, primarily because our tax structure is different from most of the rest of the world. In most cases, the shipping costs are more than paying our employees more than overseas employees. The 35% corporate business tax, plus state tax, plus fees is what sends jobs overseas. Not wages.

[Duff McCartney]

I am sick and tired of you idiots saying they are jobs nobody wants to do. Supply and demand of labor fixes the problem, but we have an excess of low skilled labor because we are not enforcing our immigration laws. The fix is to make the employers higher legal workers. When they cannot get enough at the low wages they offer, they will have to raise their wages enough to get employees.

They are jobs nobody wants to do. And if they raise their wages they'll raise the prices on the goods that they sell. Hence, we have to pay more for everything.

[ElNono]

It wouldn't work that way.

Sure it will. As long as Nike can get those prices there, no amount of tax cuts will bring those jobs back.


I am sick and tired of you idiots saying they are jobs nobody wants to do. Supply and demand of labor fixes the problem, but we have an excess of low skilled labor because we are not enforcing our immigration laws. The fix is to make the employers higher legal workers. When they cannot get enough at the low wages they offer, they will have to raise their wages enough to get employees.

And the costs of said goods/services will increase accordingly. You're basically admitting that we simply cannot compete with the rest of the world. Which is what I've been pointing out for a while.


No. You are just too hard headed to understand the economy isn't static. It's very dynamic.

No, you're the one with the simplistic view of the world. Again, not everyone can be a manager, and there's nothing static or dynamic about that.


Sure, some things will not be fixed by lowering taxes. If you want an all or nothing deal, then you will have nothing.

So you agree that taxation is not the problem. Why would it be the solution?


No you aren't. Globalization is here to stay and we are not competative, primarily because our tax structure is different from most of the rest of the world. In most cases, the shipping costs are more than paying our employees more than overseas employees.

Baloney. Jobs are sent overseas because you can live perfectly fine over there for U$S150/month. There's no competing with that with our cost of living. No amount of tax breaks will allow you to overcome that.


The 35% corporate business tax, plus state tax, plus fees is what sends jobs overseas. Not wages.

Those taxes get levied on the corp's income, regardless wether it employs or outsources. The corp's mission is to maximize profits, so if you were to cut out all taxes, they would still outsource if it's cheaper for them.
Again, the problem is competitiveness and not taxation.

[EVAY]

WC, I dn't know if you realize it or not, but E-N has owned you on this issue from the beginning.

[PuttPutt]

get fucking real

this country has been fucked for a long time. it's been on this path for a few decades now.

the good thing is that american can fix itself due to the election process. get some good people in there and they can turn this shit around.

Too bad it won't happen. We are almost always left with too few of choices. Most of which becomes a "lesser of 2 evils" scenario. There is too much greed, big egos, & personal agendas involved in the political process. Until we can get rid of the majority of our current governmet, we don't stand a chance. Just my opinion, right or wrong, it's how I feel at the moment.

[ElNono]

WC, I dn't know if you realize it or not, but E-N has owned you on this issue from the beginning.

It's not about 'owning' anybody. It's about realizing that there are no simplistic solution to complex problems. And 'globalization' is a always a sore point for free market cheerleaders. Basically because when you really cannot compete, you either have to use market protection measures (like what's been used in our agricultural market for decades now) or make everyone else as wealthy as you are (which for military pundits it's a big no-no).

[spursncowboys]

They are jobs nobody wants to do. And if they raise their wages they'll raise the prices on the goods that they sell. Hence, we have to pay more for everything.
what does a national minimum wage do?

[Duff McCartney]

what does a national minimum wage do?

It makes the playing field more fair. You must be joking to bring that shit up. Minimum wage is still laughable even with an increase. It didn't increase for over a decade. And even now it's barely two dollars more than it was a decade ago. While the cost of living has gone up much more drastically.

[Ignignokt]

It makes the playing field more fair. You must be joking to bring that shit up. Minimum wage is still laughable even with an increase. It didn't increase for over a decade. And even now it's barely two dollars more than it was a decade ago. While the cost of living has gone up much more drastically.

Pay jim his money! asshole!

[Wild Cobra]

They are jobs nobody wants to do. And if they raise their wages they'll raise the prices on the goods that they sell. Hence, we have to pay more for everything.
Ever run a simulated price sample?

Say I make a widget at $100 for a price at a rate of one per 2-1/2 man hour. I pay $20 in labor and $25 in taxes. If my employee is only making $8 per hour, but my cheap labor pool disappears and I cannot get willing workers till I pay $15 per hour, then my price for the same profit is now $112.50. However, If I was in a system that cut my taxes in half, I could sell it for $100 still, or $87.50 if there was no productivity tax.

Find someone who does accounting for various businesses. Increase wages by 50% and eliminate taxes and see if there is more or less profit for the same selling price.

Granted, my quick example is not valid for all cases, but it shows what really does happen in many cases. Now take that with taxing consumption rather than profits and productivity, and overseas products and our products are now on the same playing field.

[Wild Cobra]

Sure it will. As long as Nike can get those prices there, no amount of tax cuts will bring those jobs back.

End of discussion if you are going to stick with one product and not see the whole picture.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, I dn't know if you realize it or not, but E-N has owned you on this issue from the beginning.

Only in the eyes of the ignorant.

[ElNono]

End of discussion if you are going to stick with one product and not see the whole picture.

I can list you millions of products if that's your thing. All the way from communications to almost every single consumer electronic product, to jewelry, to clothing, etc, etc, etc... Go to a Target or Walmart and tell me how many 'Made in USA' you see compared to 'Made in China', 'Made in Mexico', 'Made in Singapore', 'Made in Taiwan', etc etc etc...