Garnett....

[benefactor]

.....rofl.

hCqefcY7lpI

[Come_On_Now]

ouch, that was a hard fall. All well, Manu just blocking the scrubs he's supposed to block. :wakeup

[lil_penny]

taught that etheopian a lesson.. good job ginobli giving him one for the euros:toast

[Findog]

It's going to be sad when guys like Kobe, Dirk and Duncan are shadows of their former selves...but I'm thoroughly enjoying KG having lost a step. Go bark at a backup PG, you "tough-ass nigga."

[benefactor]

It was almost as funny as Pierce writhing in pain like someone was sawing off his arm with a butter knife...followed by him coming back and playing like nothing ever happened.

[hitmanyr2k]

That made my night :lol

If that were KG on the other end of that block he would have scowled, ripped his jersey out, beat his chest and said "MFer" 5 times. Ginobili just walks off with the business as usual attitude.

[DAF86]

Hill fouled KG there.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The best KG moment ever was him saying, "We gon' bully deez niggas!"

[peteee]

It's going to be sad when guys like Kobe, Dirk and Duncan are shadows of their former selves...but I'm thoroughly enjoying KG having lost a step. Go bark at a backup PG, you "tough-ass nigga."
I would assume you're also shadowing rapidly if you honestly think Dirk is among the likes of Kobe and Duncan who have started slumping. Dirk is right in the midst of his best years and I'm sure he still has a couple more seasons alike to enjoy, which you can only rebut if you are nuts.

[ChrisRichards]

Why are you guys hating on this guy? Sure he's a d-bag but I like his passion for the game and there are no, i repeat no one replacing KG soon. Enjoy your Al Horford's and Tyrus Thomas in the future peeps.

[Spursfan092120]

That made my night :lol

If that were KG on the other end of that block he would have scowled, ripped his jersey out, beat his chest and said "MFer" 5 times. Ginobili just walks off with the business as usual attitude.
Exactly...gotta love it.

[Fpoonsie]

Hill fouled KG there.

:lol

Yeah, Hill's foul was pretty obvious, but I guess the refs couldn't see it w/ Manu's juevos gigantescos in the way.

[HarlemHeat37]

KG>>Dirk, career-wise..

[picc84]

^^^


It was almost as funny as Pierce writhing in pain like someone was sawing off his arm with a butter knife...followed by him coming back and playing like nothing ever happened.

No surprises there.

[ElNono]

.....rofl.

hCqefcY7lpI

http://i44.tinypic.com/2u6jmvr.jpg

Kobe approves... :tu

[Findog]

KG>>Dirk, career-wise..

Barely. You don't need two >

[ginobili's bald spot]

:lol That was satisfying on so many levels. Obviously that it's garnett getting owned so badly. Plus the fall. Plus that a foreign guard did it, the exact type of player who he always pulls his studio gangsta act with.

[SomeCallMeTim]

One thing about Ginobili, you can't accuse him of being a soft foreign player. Sure, he flops. But he ain't soft... and he's a winner. I'd welcome him on LA's squad anytime.

That block (just because it was KG and he ended up on his back) as well as the sick block against Durant both make top-10 blocks for the year, IMO. Not bad for a past-his-prime SG.

[redzero]

Call the amberlamps... etc...

[tomtom]

I was going crazy when I saw that :lol

[namlook]

:lol That was satisfying on so many levels. Obviously that it's garnett getting owned so badly.

Garnett got owned by the refs. Hill obviously fouled him with no call. Hill also fouled him before Mano got to him so that aided Manu getting the block. What I don't get is that they replayed it and Hubie says it was all ball....doh.


That made my night :lol

If that were KG on the other end of that block he would have scowled, ripped his jersey out, beat his chest and said "MFer" 5 times. Ginobili just walks off with the business as usual attitude.

Manu walked away with a sheepish "we got away with one" expression.

[IronMexican]

Ahhhhhh. That was great to see. I'm going to wait for mogro to chime in.

[FkLA]

It's going to be sad when guys like Kobe, Dirk and Duncan are shadows of their former selves...but I'm thoroughly enjoying KG having lost a step. Go bark at a backup PG, you "tough-ass nigga."

yea, one of those three guys doesnt belong with the other two...


Barely. You don't need two >

Actually KG's all-world defense throughout most of his career makes it >> possibly even >>>.

[DazedAndConfused]

That play pretty much sums up KG's career at this point.

ChrisRichards = MiamiHeat = HarlemHeat = faggot

[redzero]

That play pretty much sums up KG's career at this point.

ChrisRichards = MiamiHeat = HarlemHeat = faggot

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[Scola]

:lol the big ticket got invalidated !

[Xevious]

I was watching ESPN also, but I bet Sean and Bill jizzed their pants after that play.

[Native American]

The pale man thought he brought tales of the vampire and werewolf to this land. But long before the pale man arrived, there were native legends of the kikaw yawi and nahual, the cursed who are connected to the bat and the wolf. And legend says while the nahual is wild and fierce with a menacing howl, the kikaw yawi has much greater power that can easily tame the nahual like a pet dog. And when I say kikaw yawi I mean Manu Ginobili, the bat man. And when I say nahual I mean KG, the howling wolf. And when I say the "kikaw yawi has much greater power that can easily tame the nahual like a pet dog" I mean as you can see by that block, Manu made KG his little bitch.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL whoever is running the Native American troll, please don't ever reveal yourself..

[lennyalderette]

ouch, that was a hard fall. All well, Manu just blocking the scrubs he's supposed to block. :wakeup
thats what champions do, not bow legged germans who are afraid to get their deformed face destroyed

[lennyalderette]

The best KG moment ever was him saying, "We gon' bully deez niggas!"


when did he say that lol ??? god hes got the IQ of a dog

[jermaine]

The block was sick but the funny part is Nobili was walking over & around him like yea bitch I did it. Lmao, I thought Nobili was gone check to see was he ok but he didn't! Now that was funny. But as far as KG, he an Duncan loos the same out there. Old, slow, with no lift. Just out there to alter shots an rebound.

[Findog]

yea, one of those three guys doesnt belong with the other two...


Yes, Kobe is a narcissistic prick.



Actually KG's all-world defense throughout most of his career makes it >> possibly even >>>.


Yeah right. Dirk couldn't shut people down or anchor a defense, KG wasn't somebody you could run your offense through in crunch-time. The one time they met in the playoffs, Dirk kicked his teeth in. If Dirk had Paul Pierce and Ray Allen as his teammates, he'd have a ring too.

[urunobili]

The pale man thought he brought tales of the vampire and werewolf to this land. But long before the pale man arrived, there were native legends of the kikaw yawi and nahual, the cursed who are connected to the bat and the wolf. And legend says while the nahual is wild and fierce with a menacing howl, the kikaw yawi has much greater power that can easily tame the nahual like a pet dog. And when I say kikaw yawi I mean Manu Ginobili, the bat man. And when I say nahual I mean KG, the howling wolf. And when I say the "kikaw yawi has much greater power that can easily tame the nahual like a pet dog" I mean as you can see by that block, Manu made KG his little bitch.

LMAO :lmao

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk >> KG

When Manu tries to block KG, he sprays smegma all over KG's face. When Manu tries to block Dirk, Dirk sends the Spurs home.

lol KG

[JamStone]

LOL whoever is running the Native American troll, please don't ever reveal yourself..

You're not a little bit curious?

Not that he should but I kinda want to know who it is.

[in2deep]

LOL whoever is running the Native American troll, please don't ever reveal yourself..

k

[redzero]

Dirk >> KG

When Manu tries to block KG, he sprays smegma all over KG's face. When Manu tries to block Dirk, Dirk sends the Spurs home.

lol KG

Well, seeing as those were different situations, that comparison is moot.

[Bartleby]

What I don't get is that they replayed it and Hubie says it was all ball....doh

Manu's block was all ball




Manu walked away with a sheepish "we got away with one" expression.

WTF? There was nothing sheepish about Manu's body language after the block. As for his expression--you can't even see his face on the replay.

[Fpoonsie]

Manu's block was all ball



WTF? There was nothing sheepish about Manu's body language after the block. As for his expression--you can't even see his face on the replay.

Careful w/ that backtalk, Bartleby. You're bound to wind up on namlook's infamous list.

[Xylus]

That block was 100% ball, 100% MAN.

Ginobili is fucking sick right now.

[badfish22]

When Manu tries to block KG, he sprays smegma all over KG's face. When Manu tries to block Dirk, Dirk sends the Spurs home.


:lol

[phyzik]

I've watched this replay around 10 times today, I especially love the crowds reaction. :lol

They didnt show it, but apparently KG walked towards the sideline and started pounding his chest for the crowd.... seriously. :lmao

[dirk4mvp]

Well, seeing as those were different situations, that comparison is moot.

neaux.

[Fpoonsie]

My 2nd favorite part of that clip is Dice not letting Sheed go by first when Wallace ran over to check on his boy.

:hat

[bostonguy]

Manu has been on such a tear as of late. That block was sick on KG.

[21_Blessings]

Duncan > KG all fucking day

lmao @ Dallas fan trying to put Dirk in their tier

[Findog]

Duncan > KG all fucking day

lmao @ Dallas fan trying to put Dirk in their tier

Who said Dirk is in the same class as Duncan and Kobe?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Duncan and Kobe are both a true #1.

KG and Dirk are both 1.5 options.

Pretty sure that's what Findog has been saying all along.

[Findog]

Duncan and Kobe are both a true #1.

KG and Dirk are both 1.5 options.

Pretty sure that's what Findog has been saying all along.

Yep.

[Ghazi]

Duncan was a true #1 :smokin

[picc84]

Dirk is a 1 option.

[Findog]

Dirk is a 1 option.

On offense easily. But I wouldn't give him the same #1 franchise player designation - that's reserved only for Kobe, Bron and Wade right now. Duncan in his prime was a 1. KG and Dirk at their peaks were 1.5 guys. Durant is already a 1.5 and will be a 1 soon.

[HarlemHeat37]

So your argument is that Dirk's scoring advantage over KG made up for KG's advantage in defense, rebounding and passing?..

[Findog]

So your argument is that Dirk's scoring advantage over KG made up for KG's advantage in defense, rebounding and passing?..

Dirk - 23, 9 and 3 for his career on .509% eFG.

KG - 20, 11 and 4 for his career on .502% eFG.

Playoffs:

Dirk - 26, 11 and 3 in 97 career playoff games. Finals Runner Up as a #1 guy.

KG - 22, 12 and 4 in 73 career playoff games. Conference Finals appearance as a #1 guy. Championship as a #2 guy.

It's pretty damn close. Dirk couldn't anchor a defense; you couldn't run your offense through KG in crunch time.

[TFloss32]

Where's Manudo Flopo at!?!

[picc84]

You could run your offense through KG in the earlier 2000's, when he was in his MVP form.

[angelbelow]

lmao

[nkdlunch]

r u serious? KG in his prime vs. Dirk??

[21_Blessings]

Who said Dirk is in the same class as Duncan and Kobe?

Apples to Oranges. We're talking PFs.

Tier 1: Duncan, KG

Tier 2: The Diggler

Prime KG was ridiculous and he would be sitting on 4 rings if he was in Timmy's situation with the Spurs. Duncan wouldn't have won shit in Minny either.

Although I'm taking Duncan over either of them because he's more center than PF anyway.

[Findog]

Apples to Oranges. We're talking PFs.

Tier 1: Duncan, KG

Tier 2: The Diggler

Prime KG was ridiculous and he would be sitting on 4 rings if he was in Timmy's situation with the Spurs. Duncan wouldn't have won shit in Minny either.

Although I'm taking Duncan over either of them because he's more center than PF anyway.

I don't think so. KG's go-to move on offense was the 12-foot turn-around jumper. Duncan's go to move was the bank shot off the glass in the low post. You could hand the ball to Duncan with five minutes left and say "Go win us this game." You can't honestly say the same about KG. If they had switched places, Duncan wouldn't have won a ring in Minny either, but they would never have missed the playoffs. The Spurs probably would've broken through at one point to win a championship with KG, but I don't think they collect four.

[monosylab1k]

Spurs definitely don't beat Detroit if you swap Duncan with Garnett. They also don't beat the Lakers in 03. The 07 Phoenix series might have gone the other way too.

[picc84]

The Lakers were shitty in 2003. They weren't going anywhere. And KG was in his prime, he went ballistic on us in round 1 with a cast worse than Duncans.

[IronMexican]

No way does KG beat LA in 2003.

[monosylab1k]

The Lakers were shitty in 2003. They weren't going anywhere. And KG was in his prime.

Lakers were tied 2-2 in the series and lost 96-94 in Game 5 largely because of Tim Duncan's performance.

KG in his prime also choked harder than KG as an old decrepit piece of shit. KG in his prime in 2003 was getting curbstomped by those same "shitty" Lakers.

[picc84]

6 game series with him going nuts on us surrounded by Anthony Peeler and Wally Szerbiak. Not what I call a curbstomp.

He was arguably the best player in the league during that time. And LA was crap beyond Kobe and Shaq at that point.

Funny how you act like the Spurs won some ultra close series and Minnie got stomped when the two series went almost exactly the same.

[DAF86]

KG on his prime was arguably the best player in the world (at least that was the opinion of several BB specialists and fans), when has Dirk been perceived that way?

[DAF86]

Spurs definitely don't beat Detroit if you swap Duncan with Garnett. They also don't beat the Lakers in 03. The 07 Phoenix series might have gone the other way too.

And the Boston Celtics don't win the 2008 championship with Dirk instead of Garnett.

[monosylab1k]

6 game series with him going nuts on us surrounded by Anthony Peeler and Wally Szerbiak. Not what I call a curbstomp.

shitting the bed in an elimination game and shooting 9/21 while going 0/2 from the free throw line is called getting curbstomped. So is being up 2-1 and then losing the last 3 games of the series by a combined 51 points.

[monosylab1k]

KG on his prime was arguably the best player in the world (at least that was the opinion of several BB specialists and fans)

:lol you think you can pull out some bullshit like that and not have to back it up?

[badfish22]

KG on his prime was arguably the best player in the world (at least that was the opinion of several BB specialists and fans), when has Dirk been perceived that way?

when he was given the MVP trophy.....

thats kind of what that award implies.

[badfish22]

And the Boston Celtics don't win the 2008 championship with Dirk instead of Garnett.

:lol

[badfish22]

manu>dirk

[monosylab1k]

And the Boston Celtics don't win the 2008 championship with Dirk instead of Garnett.

:lmao Paul Pierce and Ray Allen had alot more to do with winning that championship than Garnett did. If you're asking Dirk to be a 3rd wheel like KG was, he can more than fill that role.

[monosylab1k]

when he was given the MVP trophy.....

thats kind of what that award implies.

tbh Argentina Nazi Sympathizer doesn't want to use that as proof because Dirk has an MVP trophy too.

[DAF86]

:lol

What's so funny? do you really think that the Celts win the championship with Dirk instead of KG?

[monosylab1k]

....still waiting on proof of anyone ever calling Garnett the best player in the world. Especially considering he was playing in the same era as Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.

[badfish22]

What's so funny? do you really think that the Celts win the championship with Dirk instead of KG?

Do I really think you are a nazi sympathizer? yes.

[DAF86]

when he was given the MVP trophy.....

thats kind of what that award implies.

Since when MVP= best player in the world?

[monosylab1k]

.....yeah, that's what I thought. Nothing to backup another bullshit statement.

Game's on!

[DAF86]

Do I really think you are a nazi sympathizer? yes.

Great comeback, :tu how old are you? ... 12, 13?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Since when MVP= best player in the world?


The same time as when KG was thought of as the best player in the world.

[DAF86]

....still waiting on proof of anyone ever calling Garnett the best player in the world. Especially considering he was playing in the same era as Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.


6 game series with him going nuts on us surrounded by Anthony Peeler and Wally Szerbiak. Not what I call a curbstomp.

He was arguably the best player in the league during that time. And LA was crap beyond Kobe and Shaq at that point.

Funny how you act like the Spurs won some ultra close series and Minnie got stomped when the two series went almost exactly the same.


KG on his prime was arguably the best player in the world (at least that was the opinion of several BB specialists and fans), when has Dirk been perceived that way?

Coincidence that two posters posted the same thing at the same time, I guess we both made the same shit up just for the sake of arguing.

I don't feel like looking for 10/8 years old articles, if you want proof you can look for it yourself.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Considering Anthony Peeler wasn't even on the 2004 Timberwolves, picc84's opinion of 2004 Garnett isn't what one would deem "credible".

[DAF86]

:lmao Paul Pierce and Ray Allen had alot more to do with winning that championship than Garnett did. If you're asking Dirk to be a 3rd wheel like KG was, he can more than fill that role.

Yeah, I'm sure that KG beign the 3rd wheel of that team is the reason why he was 3rd in MVP voting behind Kobe and CP3.

Just answer the question: Do you think that the Celtics would have won the 'ship that year with Dirk instead of KG?

[JoeTait75]

Sweet, another Dirk-v-KG thread.

[picc84]

Considering Anthony Peeler wasn't even on the 2004 Timberwolves, picc84's opinion of 2004 Garnett isn't what one would deem "credible".

Considering the argument was about the 2003 team, you don't really have a clue wtf you're talking about.

[DAF86]

The same time as when KG was thought of as the best player in the world.

Sometimes the MVP winner happens to be the best player in the world, most of the times they aren't and you should know it.

Besides I don't think that KG was ever the best player in the world at any particular moment, I'm just stating the fact that a lot of people did think that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sometimes the MVP winner happens to be the best player in the world, most of the times they aren't and you should know it.

Besides I don't think that KG was ever the best player in the world at any particular moment, I'm just stating the fact that a lot of people did think that.


So that's your proof KG > Dirk, "a lot of people thought he was the best player in the world at the time of his MVP"?

[Pero]

Yeah, I'm sure that KG beign the 3rd wheel of that team is the reason why he was 3rd in MVP voting behind Kobe and CP3.


Nevertheless the dude who got the finals MVP was not named Kevin Garnett.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

IMO, KG = Dirk < Duncan. I don't think there's a way you can argue one was noticeable better than the other.

[LOL@MavsFan]

It was almost as funny as Pierce writhing in pain like someone was sawing off his arm with a butter knife...followed by him coming back and playing like nothing ever happened.

Does this ring a bell?

http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/pierce_knee_game1_finals500350.jpg

and then 10 min later

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/06/09/alg_paulpierce.jpg

[DAF86]

So that's your proof KG > Dirk, "a lot of people thought he was the best player in the world at the time of his MVP"?

No that's just part of the argument, I think that KG > Dirk just because he's the better player.

Dirk: One of the best shooters of all-time, good at drawing fouls, great scorer. But he isn't particulary good at making teammates better and his defense is bad (and I'm beign generous), doesn't get the amount of rebounds a guy with his size and minutes should get.

KG: Better passer, leader, rebounder, blocker, stealer, defender than Dirk. And even though he isn't as good as Dirk on offense, he still is (or was) an elite player on that end too.

[DAF86]

Nevertheless the dude who got the finals MVP was not named Kevin Garnett.

And in 2007 Parker got finals MVP over Duncan.

[Pero]

And in 2007 Parker got finals MVP over Duncan.

Yeah but difference is KG didn't get it because he wasn't able to (not then, maybe not ever).

[monosylab1k]

I don't feel like looking for 10/8 years old articles, if you want proof you can look for it yourself.

I'm not the one who made some ridiculous fucking statement that basketball "specialists" called KG the best player in the world. YOU are the dumb fuck who made that claim, and the burden of proof is on YOU.

Get back to me when you can prove what you said. Until then, keep your stupid fucking bullshit claims to yourself.

[dirk4mvp]

Sweet, another Dirk-v-KG thread.

Strangely enough, most of the time, they are spearheaded by one of spurstalk's manufans.

[DAF86]

I'm not the one who made some ridiculous fucking statement that basketball "specialists" called KG the best player in the world. YOU are the dumb fuck who made that claim, and the burden of proof is on YOU.

Get back to me when you can prove what you said. Until then, keep your stupid fucking bullshit claims to yourself.

I know that "KG beign arguably the best player in the world" was discussed during those years, I don't need to look it up, I remember it. If you don't, then look it up for yourself. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, I couldn't care less if you bealive me or not.

[DAF86]

Strangely enough, most of the time, they are spearheaded by one of spurstalk's manufans.

No, they're spearheaded by delusional Mavsfans that think that Dirk had a better career than Garnett.

BTW Which Manufan was the one that started the argument on this case? FINDOG or HarlemHeat?

[dirk4mvp]

No matter that you're losing badly, this argument is really important to you isn't it?

[DAF86]

No matter that you're losing badly, this argument is really important to you isn't it?

Every non-biased person would agree that Garnett > Dirk. How am I losing?

[dirk4mvp]

Pulling some cheesedick argument that basketball "specialists" said KG was the best player in the world, and then looking retarded when someone asked you for proof.

Also, you've been showing major amounts of butthurt since you've been getting squirted on in the recent Dirk/Manu threads and is now looking for any Dirk vs. 'X' to get your shots in.

lol manu > Dirk

[DAF86]

Pulling some cheesedick argument that basketball "specialists" said KG was the best player in the world, and then looking retarded when someone asked you for proof.

Also, you've been showing major amounts of butthurt since you've been getting squirted on in the recent Dirk/Manu threads and is now looking for any Dirk vs. 'X' to get your shots in.

lol manu > Dirk

First, get it right: Is Manu's prime > Dirk's prime

And second, I've been arguing this since Manu's injury times and looked anything but done, why am I going to get butthurt now that he's proving a lot of people that he's a lot better than what most of them thought he was?

[dirk4mvp]

First, get it right: Is Manu's prime > Dirk's prime

An equally absurd comment.


And second, I've been arguing this since Manu's injury times and looked anything but done, why am I going to get butthurt now that he's proving a lot of people that he's a lot better than what most of them thought he was?

IDK, but you've really been butthurt lately in any Dirk/Manu thread. Probably because every time you make yourself look retarded.

[Findog]

KG on his prime was arguably the best player in the world (at least that was the opinion of several BB specialists and fans), when has Dirk been perceived that way?

KG was better than Duncan? Better than Shaq? Better than Kobe?

Okay.

[Findog]

And the Boston Celtics don't win the 2008 championship with Dirk instead of Garnett.

Prove it.

If Dirk can come within a hair of winning a championship with Josh Howard and Jason Terry, I like his chances with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce.

Manu > Dirk. :lol

[DAF86]

An equally absurd comment.

No it isn't, imho.


IDK, but you've really been butthurt lately in any Dirk/Manu thread. Probably because every time you make yourself look retarded.

Nah, I'm fine. I'm enjoying the best part of the Spurs and Manu's season (except for this little incident we had a few hours ago :bang), this butthurtdness of mine is all in your mind, tbh.

[Findog]

What's so funny? do you really think that the Celts win the championship with Dirk instead of KG?

So in other words....

Manu > Dirk

Jason Terry and Josh Howard > Paul Pierce and Ray Allen

God, you are a dumbshit :lol

[Findog]

....still waiting on proof of anyone ever calling Garnett the best player in the world. Especially considering he was playing in the same era as Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.

He was never better than those guys. And his prime coincided with theirs.

[DAF86]

KG was better than Duncan? Better than Shaq? Better than Kobe?

Okay.

I don't think he was better than Duncan and Shaq but he IMO he was better than Kobe during that time, also why are you bringing this to me. I didn't say that I thoght that KG was the best player of those year, I said that a lot of people thought that way.

[Findog]

Since when MVP= best player in the world?

Since when was Kevin Garnett considered the best player in the world? When in his prime was he ever better than Shaq, Duncan and Kobe?

[Findog]

I don't think he was better than Duncan and Shaq but he IMO he was better than Kobe during that time, also why are you bringing this to me. I didn't say that I thoght that KG was the best player of those year, I said that a lot of people thought that way.

I lot of people thought Home Improvement was a better show than Seinfeld, which is why it kicked Seinfeld's ass in the ratings for a few years. If that opinion is not valid, why do you bring it up then? What does it matter if some people erroneously think KG was better than Duncan, Shaq and Kobe?

[Findog]

No, they're spearheaded by delusional Mavsfans that think that Dirk had a better career than Garnett.

I don't think Dirk necessarily had a better career than Garnett, but they were both 1.5 players in their prime. They each had flaws and holes in their games that prevented them from being a true #1 guy.

Garnett won a ring as a #2 guy and won more awards, so on that basis, you could say he had a more rewarding career. But it's hard to make a case for either guy as anything more than a 1.5.

[DAF86]

I lot of people thought Home Improvement was a better show than Seinfeld, which is why it kicked Seinfeld's ass in the ratings for a few years. If that opinion is not valid, why do you bring it up then? What does it matter if some people erroneously think KG was better than Duncan, Shaq and Kobe?

Because it shows that during his prime KG was considered a tier 1 player (something that I agree with) while Dirk has never been placed on that level.

[DAF86]

I don't think Dirk necessarily had a better career than Garnett, but they were both 1.5 players in their prime. They each had flaws and holes in their games that prevented them from being a true #1 guy.

Garnett won a ring as a #2 guy and won more awards, so on that basis, you could say he had a more rewarding career. But it's hard to make a case for either guy as anything more than a 1.5.

No, he didn't. He won it as the best player on his team. He was 3rd in MVP voting that year behind Kobe and CP3.

I guess that you think that Duncan won the '07 championship as the number 2 guy of the Spurs.

[Findog]

Because it shows that during his prime KG was considered a tier 1 player (something that I agree with)

Who considered him a Tier 1 player? Who placed him on that level? I don't know of many people who put him in the same class as Duncan, Kobe and Shaq.


while Dirk has never been placed on that level.

Neither has KG.

[DAF86]

Jason Terry and Josh Howard > Paul Pierce and Ray Allen

God, you are a dumbshit :lol

Why are you making shit up? When did I say that?

[Findog]

No, he didn't. He won it as the best player on his team.


KG was a 1.5 that year and so was Pierce. Pierce was their best player in the playoffs because of the way he amped up his defense and how the Celtics offense ran through him in crunch time. KG anchored the defense and was a great locker room guy who inspired his teammates with his work ethic and example. Pierce can't anchor a defense or inspire his teammates, but you could give him the ball in crunch time and have him win the game for you. He was their playoff MVP.


He was 3rd in MVP voting that year behind Kobe and CP3.

Who gives a shit? He was far from the third-best player in the league that yaer.


I guess that you think that Duncan won the '07 championship as the number 2 guy of the Spurs.

So you think defenses keying in on Kevin Garnett is why Paul Pierce was so effective on offense? Okay.

[DAF86]

Who considered him a Tier 1 player? Who placed him on that level? I don't know of many people who put him in the same class as Duncan, Kobe and Shaq.



Neither has KG.

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/05/28/the-tragedy-of-kevin-garnett/

And in the comment section you can read things like:


I agree, Kevin Garnett has been the best player for the last couple of years

Again, I'm not saying I agree with it. Just that the thing was talked about.

[Findog]

Why are you making shit up? When did I say that?

It's the logical conclusion of your argument. If Dirk came within a few inches of winning a title with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his supporting cast, why would he have no chance to win a title with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

[Findog]

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2006/05/28/the-tragedy-of-kevin-garnett/

And in the comment section you can read things like:



Again, I'm not saying I agree with it. Just that the thing was talked about.

What kind of supporting evidence is that for your position? Since when are blogs the final arbiter of who is a true #1 guy?

[endrity]

Can we just have an official Dirk v. KG thread instead of every thread that mentions either of the players turning into one?

By the way, for memory's sake, this is what the supposed best player in the world was doing against a very young, soft ass, European in the 2002 playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx4cDmqFWdk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1L83Vcc

Individually one of the best series by Dirk, being guarded almost exclusively by KG! Complete ownage!!!!

[Findog]

Can we just have an official Dirk v. KG thread instead of every thread that mentions either of the players turning into one?

By the way, for memory's sake, this is what the supposed best player in the world was doing against a very young, soft ass, European in the 2002 playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx4cDmqFWdk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1L83Vcc

Individually one of the best series by Dirk, being guarded almost exclusively by KG! Complete ownage!!!!

Yep Dirk has never had much problem with KG.

[DAF86]

What kind of supporting evidence is that for your position? Since when are blogs the final arbiter of who is a true #1 guy?

You said that KG was never placed in the tier 1 category, I'm showing you evidence that he was. There isn't an official stat that separates players in categories so all we have is public opinions.

Here's another one

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/269229-why-kevin-garnett-is-the-second-best-player-of-the-decade

Again, I don't agree with it (IMO he's 4) but the fact that there's people that think he is the second best player of the decade shows you how good he was in his prime. Even if a BS opinion, I'm sure you won't find an article saying that Dirk was the second best player of the decade.

[DAF86]

It's the logical conclusion of your argument. If Dirk came within a few inches of winning a title with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his supporting cast, why would he have no chance to win a title with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

Because Garnett was the player that defined that team's style of play and without that style they wouldn't have won it all.

[Findog]

You said that KG was never placed in the tier 1 category, I'm showing you evidence that he was. There isn't an official stat that separates players in categories so all we have is public opinions.

I really doubt that scouts, front-office executives, coaches and players would put him in that category and on par with Shaq, Kobe and Duncan. A #1 guy is pretty rare - right now we only have three (Bron, Kobe and Wade). In the early part of this decade, I could only name Duncan, Shaq and Kobe. KG was never a #1 guy and every GM and coach not named Flip Saunders would back me up on that. I could care less what people with blogs write.


Again, I don't agree with it (IMO he's 4) but the fact that there's people that think he is the second best player of the decade shows you how good he was in his prime. Even if a BS opinion, I'm sure you won't find an article saying that Dirk was the second best player of the decade.


So people with blogs writing stupid shit proves KG was a true #1 guy and Dirk wasn't?

[Findog]

Because Garnett was the player that defined that team's style of play and without that style they wouldn't have won it all.

They would've been equally talented and had a different style. The Mavs did pretty good with Dirk, Josh and JET; I have a hard time believing a core of Dirk, Allen and Pierce couldn't get to the Finals and beat that Laker team.

[Findog]

Allen, Pierce and Rondo took the conference champs to seven games without KG. You're telling me that adding Dirk doesn't get them past Orlando?

[DAF86]

Allen, Pierce and Rondo took the conference champs to seven games without KG. You're telling me that adding Dirk doesn't get them past Orlando?

Rondo 2009 > Rondo 2008
Allen 2009 > Allen 2008

And like that a lot of other players on that Celtics squad. Plus the confidence of having won it all the year before and the hability of playing pressure free because they weren't considered the candidates on that series, help them extend the series to 7 games. To answer your question: yes I think Dirk would have help them advance but with KG they would have advanced also.

[JamStone]

They should just make a KG v. Dirk episode on Deadliest Warrior.

That could finally settle this.

[badfish22]

Why findog is wasting his time on DAF is beyond me. Even other spurfans have written this guy off. His shtick gets old. "Someone once said Manu is the 2nd best SG in the league!" or "Someone once said KG was the best player in the whole wide world!" then once you ask him for proof he shuts up.


I agree with DoK. Dirk=Garnett>Duncan

[DAF86]

Why findog is wasting his time on DAF is beyond me. Even other spurfans have written this guy off. His shtick gets old. "Someone once said Manu is the best SG in the league!" or "Someone once said KG was the best player in the whole wide world!" then once you ask him fro proof he shuts up.


I agree with DoK. Dirk=Garnett>Duncan

If I'm so worthless why the fuck do YOU waste so much time on me? you have been here for like two months and have quoted me more than any other poster on this site, please stop doing it or if you do please post something worth reading not the same shit you always post or a fucking gay smiley, thanks and God bless you.

P/S: When the fuck did I say that Manu was the best SG in the league? Why do you like making shit up?

[Ghazi]

Actually I did hear Jeff Van Gundy call Manu the 2nd best SG in the league 2 years ago when D-Whistle was injured all year. It was a valid claim at the time too.

Still lol @ Manu > Dirk

[badfish22]

If I'm so worthless why the fuck do YOU waste so much time on me? you have been here for like two months and have quoted me more than any other poster on this site, please stop doing it or if you do please post something worth reading not the same shit you always post or a fucking gay smiley, thanks and God bless you.

P/S: When the fuck did I say that Manu was the best SG in the league? Why do you like making shit up?

I've stopped wasting my time on you tbh. Sometimes you post something stupider than usual and I have to say something. Haven't really contributed much to this argument.

[DAF86]

I've stopped wasting my time on you tbh. Sometimes you post something stupider than usual and I have to say something. Haven't really contributed much to this argument.

Thanks :tu

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I actually agree with DAF about the KG Celtics thing. KG came in brought a culture where everyone was held accountable and made sure everyone knew their role and did their job. The extra energy that team played with every night was because of KG. KG more or less saved Doc Rivers' career as the Celtics' coach because he saw to it everyone was on the same page and listened to him.

Still, as an individual player, IMO, Dirk = KG.

[monosylab1k]

No, he didn't. He won it as the best player on his team. He was 3rd in MVP voting that year behind Kobe and CP3.


Since when MVP= best player in the world?

lol, contradicting yourself

[DAF86]

lol, contradicting yourself

Explain please how I contradicted myself.

[monosylab1k]

One statement treats the MVP voting like it's a great barometer of a player's value, the other acts like it doesn't mean jack shit.

lol, contradicting yourself

[DAF86]

One statement treats the MVP voting like it's a great barometer of a player's value, the other acts like it doesn't mean jack shit.

lol, contradicting yourself

Winning the MVP isn't the same as beign the best player on the world, however when you win the MVP (or get close to it) you're definitely the best player on your team.

[monosylab1k]

MVP isn't the same as beign the best player on the world, however when you win the MVP (or get close to it) you're definitely the best player on your team.

lol, excuses

[DAF86]

lol, excuses

What I said it's true and you know it.

[endrity]

DAF86,

man you keep saying that KG's career is so much better and that he was considered one of the best whereas Dirk never was.

Than how about some basic facts:
- Dirk has an MVP just as KG does, plus two other top 3 finishes, just like KG
- Dirk has 4 All-NBA First Team nominatons, just like KG, and might have had a chance to overpass him if he hadn't hurt his elbow while enjoying his finest season, as most fans in here were agreeing. Now, LBJ and Durant are locks at the forward position I think. Still he's going to pass KG in Second Team nominations, and all of this while he has played 3 less years in the league

Dirk has been considered for a while as an elite player in this league. And since we are talking about blogs and stuff, KG will never match his 06 playoffs heroics, during which Bill Simmons called him the best forward since Bird, Hollinger called him one of the most efficient players ever, and with Kobe the top two offensive threats in the league by a wide margin. In every player ranking after those playoffs, he was ranked as the top PF, overtaking Duncan and with writers at CBS and CNNSI claiming that this was his moment in the spotlight. Of course, he would end up winning the MVP that season as well. That is some serious praise thrown to a player who is a "soft, jumpshooting, European".

[Findog]

I actually agree with DAF about the KG Celtics thing. KG came in brought a culture where everyone was held accountable and made sure everyone knew their role and did their job. The extra energy that team played with every night was because of KG. KG more or less saved Doc Rivers' career as the Celtics' coach because he saw to it everyone was on the same page and listened to him.

Still, as an individual player, IMO, Dirk = KG.

I don't think that it means they couldn't have won a title with a slightly different identity centered around a core of Dirk, Pierce and Allen. We'll never know for sure because it's a hypothetical, but I have a real hard time believing that he couldn't win a title with Pierce and Allen when he came so close with Terry and Howard.

[Findog]

Winning the MVP isn't the same as beign the best player on the world, however when you win the MVP (or get close to it) you're definitely the best player on your team.

He and Pierce were the co-mvps of that team in the regular season, but ask any Celtics fan who was more instrumental in the playoffs and they'll say Pierce. They couldn't have won a title without either one of those guys, but Pierce was their best player in the playoffs. Again, it just goes to show why Garnett is a 1.5 and not a 1: he can't carry a team offensively in crunch time like Pierce. And Pierce is a 1.5 and not a 1 because for years he sloughed off the responsibility of being a #1 guy and a leader. For all of Garnett's faults as a dick and somebody who you can't run your offense through in the last five minutes of a game, he is somebody that inspires his teammates with his work ethic and gets everybody to fall in line behind his example.

[LnGrrrR]

I'll agree with that Findog. Pierce was very reluctant to take up the leadership mantle for years, which is why Antoine Walker did his best to. I guess that's why I can't hate on Walker, no matter how many ridiculous antics he threw out there.

[sonic21]

Dirk=KG

But Dirk is clutch, he can carry a team in a 4th quarter. We don't know for sure if the C would be better with Dirk, but I think the mavs would not be as good with KG. Who would score in the money time, terry maybe but he's no Cassell or Pierce.

[Ghazi]

Ive seen it said that if you swap Dirk with Sheed of '04 Pistons, KG of '08 Celtics, and Gasol of '09 Lakers those teams would not win it all.

Really though? Is Dirk's game inherently flawed that he simply cannot fit into a championship team? There's really no way to prove any of this, and its illogical to say they absolutely would not have won it all.

All I know is that KG's performance was very suboptimal in the Finals. I have a tough time believing that if you swap Dirk with KG that they absolutely would've lost to the Lakers... or Pistons/Cavs/Hawks before that.

If I say you swap Dirk with Shaq 00-02 the Lakers still 3 peat, then it sounds really dumb. but Dirk being swapped with '08 KG and the Celtics still winning it all isn't really irrational at all. they'd be more efficient offensively and less stout defensively... whether the difference would be enough to hypothetically have dethroned them is a mystery until it was actually simulated.

[endrity]

Swap Gasol with Dirk for the 09 Lakers and they sweep the Rockets....

[Ghazi]

sheed/kg are more compelling hypotheticals than gasol since those teams were extremely defensive oriented and dirk is not nearly as good as those two defensively... still, have to consider his efficiency advantage over KG, and his pretty overwhelming offensive efficiency advantage over Rasheed. if i recall that pistons team was actually mediocre offensively.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

They should just make a KG v. Dirk episode on Deadliest Warrior.

That could finally settle this.

KG slays Dirk with a knife then kills himself when he goes to thump his chest while still holding the weapon.

[endrity]

How about this for another simple, basic argument:

DAF says Garnett is more of a leader than Dirk. Now, despite the fact that Garnett turned into a complete douche, I am not going to say that Garnett isn't someone other players might follow.

But what about this: If the Mavs win 50 this season, very likely at the moment, it will be their 10th straight season with at least 50 wins. This puts them in a very rare company. But more importantly, the only player to have been here for all this period is Dirk. In fact this current team is the third cast of players that the Mavs have used to build around Dirk. And all these teams always have won 50. Now, I don't know how you people define leadership, but the most relevant definition would be of a player who leads his team to victories. Well, empirically speaking, is there anyone who has a better argument than Dirk? To lead three different group of player to consistent contention is pretty "leader-ish" to me.

[JamStone]

This has gotten pretty interesting. I'll put two cents in really quick about the 2008 Celtics. KG's value in leadership and defense can't be understated. Those two things he brought positively impacted that team more than any tangible statistics could prove. It's hard to compare intangibles. Dirk would have brought more scoring and a solid all around game. Would it have made a similar impact? It's hard to tell. KG is exactly what that team needed to be successful, not just from a skills point of view, but leadership, defense, approach, and mentality. As great as Dirk is, he's not a vocal or emotional leader. I don't know if he would have inspired the whole team to play at that level especially defensively the way KG did.

I would posit this as well, I think with Dirk, they have no problem beating Detroit or Cleveland and probably still beat that Lakers squad that wasn't quite on the same page yet. But, funny enough, with Dirk replacing KG, I'm not convinced they beat the Atlanta Hawks in the first round. Joe Johnson was the hero in those Hawks wins, but Josh Smith was coming of age. His athleticism and aggressiveness was everything KG could handle and more. The three games the Hawks won, Josh Smith played balls out. And KG scored well in that first round series. So it wasn't that he wasn't bringing it offensively. Could Dirk contain Josh Smith enough? I don't know.

[monosylab1k]

Swap Gasol with Dirk for the 09 Lakers and they sweep the Rockets....

Swap Gasol with Dirk and the Lakers beat the Celtics in 08. When Dirk and KG go head to head, historically Dirk has made KG his bitch.

[mogrovejo]

He and Pierce were the co-mvps of that team in the regular season, but ask any Celtics fan who was more instrumental in the playoffs and they'll say Pierce. They couldn't have won a title without either one of those guys, but Pierce was their best player in the playoffs. Again, it just goes to show why Garnett is a 1.5 and not a 1: he can't carry a team offensively in crunch time like Pierce. And Pierce is a 1.5 and not a 1 because for years he sloughed off the responsibility of being a #1 guy and a leader. For all of Garnett's faults as a dick and somebody who you can't run your offense through in the last five minutes of a game, he is somebody that inspires his teammates with his work ethic and gets everybody to fall in line behind his example.

Maybe if it a Celtics fan who didn't see the playoff games?

Garnett was the most important player in the Celtics during the regular season and the playoffs and it wasn't that close.

[mogrovejo]

The problem with the Dirk=KG argument is that Garnett is/was a superior player in pretty much everything except, at times, scoring.

Only the brainwashed WC fans who overrate scoring could make this kind of argument.

In terms of non-scoring contributions, Garnett was on a completely different planet when compared to Dirk - way better defender, rebounder, passer.

[mogrovejo]

Walker/Garnett were the vocal leaders due to his peculiar personality, but Pierce was the leader of every Celtics team since O'Brien arrival, including the championship one.

People overrate this kind of stuff anyway. Lots of guys can/would be leaders. The reason people consider them bad leaders is 99% related with the quality of the teammates around them (good enough to win titles or not).

[Findog]

The problem with the Dirk=KG argument is that Garnett is/was a superior player in pretty much everything except, at times, scoring.

Only the brainwashed WC fans who overrate scoring could make this kind of argument.

In terms of non-scoring contributions, Garnett was on a completely different planet when compared to Dirk - way better defender, rebounder, passer.

:lol

Dirk - 23, 9 and 3 for his career on .509% eFG.

KG - 20, 11 and 4 for his career on .502% eFG.

Playoffs:

Dirk - 26, 11 and 3 in 97 career playoff games. Finals Runner Up as a #1 guy.

KG - 22, 12 and 4 in 73 career playoff games. Conference Finals appearance as a #1 guy. Championship as a #2 guy.

So in the playoffs Garnett got you 1 more rebound and 1 more assist. Yeah, he's on a completely different planet when it comes to passing and rebounding. :rolleyes And he was such a better passer and rebounder that he's played in 24 fewer playoff games.

Garnett was the much better defender, and a marginally better passer and rebounder, Dirk was the far better and more efficient scorer. In his prime he worked himself into an adequate defender as opposed to the sieve that he was in the Nelson days. A direct comparison is hard because Dirk has had good but not great supporting casts in Dallas but never had anything like Pierce and Allen in Boston, whereas KG was surrounded by complete dreck in Minnesota save for one year.

All I know is this - Dirk came within inches of a title in 2006 with Josh Howard and Jason Terry as his main sidekicks, which was in the middle of his prime. I'd argue that he was playing better this season than he was in 2006 until Carl Landry tried to eat his elbow. KG was in his prime in 2004 and finally had a good supporting cast -- I think we can agree that Sprewell and Cassell and the role players they had is comparable to Howard/Terry and the 2006 Mavs role players. Minnesota got to the Conference Finals where they never really threatened the Lakers. The Mavs at least beat a championship-caliber team in the Spurs. They also stayed at the elite level whereas Minnesota fell apart with that exact same cast and failed to make the playoffs the next year.

The closest I can come to a direct comparison is KG's 2004 season to Dirk's 2006 season. They're both 1.5 players. You can make an argument that Garnett has had a better career because he has a title as a #2 guy and Dirk doesn't, and he's won more defensive player of the year awards, but in their prime, with the same caliber of a supporting cast, you can't tell me KG was a decisively better player than Dirk.

[Findog]

Maybe if it a Celtics fan who didn't see the playoff games?

Garnett was the most important player in the Celtics during the regular season and the playoffs and it wasn't that close.

Regular season - KG.

Playoffs, and especially the Finals - Pierce.

[JamStone]

KG was probably the Celtics best player in the first three rounds of the 2008 playoffs. He wasn't the closer, but he was their best player for each series before the Finals. With the exception of a couple games (like game 7 against Cleveland), KG was the reason they got to the NBA Finals.

Paul Pierce was the best player on the 2008 Celtics in the NBA Finals, not before then.

[mogrovejo]

Regular season - KG.

Playoffs, and especially the Finals - Pierce.

You're nuts. KG was the best player in every series till the finals. In the first 2 ones he was leap and bound above Pierce.

[mogrovejo]

:lol

Dirk - 23, 9 and 3 for his career on .509% eFG.

KG - 20, 11 and 4 for his career on .502% eFG.

Playoffs:

Dirk - 26, 11 and 3 in 97 career playoff games. Finals Runner Up as a #1 guy.

KG - 22, 12 and 4 in 73 career playoff games. Conference Finals appearance as a #1 guy. Championship as a #2 guy.

Check the rates. Raw numbers are for children.

In his prime, Garnett was the best rebounder in the league. He lead the league in DR% for four years in a row.

Dirk max rebounding rate was never above 15%. Garnett is in his 12th season with a reb. rate above 15%. He got seasons of 20%.

This is the difference between one of the best rebounders in the league and an average/slightly bellow average rebounder.

If you call this a marginally better rebounder you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


Garnett's assist rate is above Chris Webber


All I know is this - Dirk came within inches of a title in 2006 with Josh Howard and Jason Terry as his main sidekicks, which was in the middle of his prime. I'd argue that he was playing better this season than he was in 2006 until Carl Landry tried to eat his elbow. KG was in his prime in 2004 and finally had a good supporting cast -- I think we can agree that Sprewell and Cassell and the role players they had is comparable to Howard/Terry and the 2006 Mavs role players. Minnesota got to the Conference Finals where they never really threatened the Lakers. The Mavs at least beat a championship-caliber team in the Spurs. They also stayed at the elite level whereas Minnesota fell apart with that exact same cast and failed to make the playoffs the next year.

Dude, are you nuts? When have you started actually watching games? I mean, you're aware Cassell got injured in the playoffs, right? ANd that Sprewell was a 33 years old in the downside of his career? Ant that the supporting cast was absolutely horrible? I mean, Garnett had to play the point guard position in some games...

[mogrovejo]

Garnett was the best scorer in crunch time for the Celtics during the 07/08 playoffs.

You guys simply didn't watch the games and pretend you did - that's my only explanation.

You watched the finals when Pierce and Allen came up big (as they should, being guarded by the pathetic Lakers wing defenders).

[mogrovejo]

I'm not sure what to say of someone who thinks Garnett was a marginally better rebounder than Dirk. We're comparing arguably the best rebounder of his generation to a guy who's hardly average for his position.

Just shows how clueless/biased some people are.

I forgot the passing. Assists per 100 possessions:

Garnett: 20.3%
Chris Webber: 20.2%
Dirk Nowitzki: 13%

I mean, what are we comparing? DIrk is a very good passer for a big man, but Garnett is one of the bests ever in the history of the league.

Garnett, like guys like Bogut today (obviously on a different level), is wildly underrated due to the quality of his team. Ginobili is in a similar situation. He's been a top-15 player in the NBA for most of his career, top-10 player in some years. If he was in a different ballclub this would be pretty consensual.

[JamStone]

In his prime, KG was the second best rebounder after Ben Wallace.

[TheMACHINE]

LOL at George Hill clearly fouling Garnett in that play.

anyways..fuck garnett.

[Findog]

Dude, are you nuts? When have you started actually watching games? I mean, you're aware Cassell got injured in the playoffs, right? ANd that Sprewell was a 33 years old in the downside of his career? Ant that the supporting cast was absolutely horrible? I mean, Garnett had to play the point guard position in some games...

Yeah Sprewell was terrible that year. He played in all 82 games and averaged 20, 5 and 4 with 2 steals on .481 eFG% in the playoffs. He was TERRIBLE. And you're telling me I didn't watch the T-Wolves play in the 2004 playoffs? I know how good Garnett was in Game 7 against the Kings. As for Cassell, do you honestly believe that they would've beaten the Lakers if he hadn't gotten hurt in the second game? And you're honestly telling me that a core of Sprewell, Cassell, Szerbiak is not comparable to Terry, Howard and Harris?


I'm not sure what to say of someone who thinks Garnett was a marginally better rebounder than Dirk. We're comparing arguably the best rebounder of his generation to a guy who's hardly average for his position.

Garnett in his prime was a better rebounder, but he wasn't "on another plane" or whatever you want to call it. And I'm pretty sure there were more available rebounds to grab since the T-Wolves and their opponents didn't shoot as well as the Don Nelson Mavericks and their opponents. Style of play and pace plays a factor in that. And yeah, Garnett is a slightly better passer, but it's not a surprise he has a higher assist rate when Dirk's job is to score for his team in crunch time (better and more efficient scorer) whereas Webber and Garnett's job is to get scared and pass out of double teams.

[in2deep]

Dirk's shooting >>> Garnetts
Garnett's D >>>>>>> Dirk's
Garnett's Rebounding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk's

[Findog]

In his prime, KG was the second best rebounder after Ben Wallace.

I agree KG was a better rebounder, but don't you think there are more available rebounds to grab in a Pistons or T-Wolves game circa 2003 than say a Mavs game at the same time? I'm not saying Dirk was as good as KG when it came to rebounding, but he was averaged 11 a game in the playoffs when the games slow down and field-goal percentages drop. If we can't penalize KG for being on crummy Minnesota teams, then we can't penalize Dirk for playing on a run-n-gun team earlier in his career when there were fewer available rebounds to grab since neither team played much D.

If we're talking about who was a better player in their prime and a better #1 option, Dirk has a history of raising his game in the playoffs (one of only 6 guys to average a 25/11) more than Garnett does (who has also been unfairly tagged at times as a choker.)

[Findog]

Dirk's shooting >>> Garnetts
Garnett's D >>>>>>> Dirk's
Garnett's Rebounding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk's

I would put it this way:

Dirk's scoring and efficiency in doing so >> Garnett.
Garnett's defense >>> Dirk.
Garnett's passing > Dirk (somewhat misleading stat since their roles in an offense are much different - you want Dirk shooting the ball in crunch time operating out of the high post, whereas you want KG setting up near the baseline and looking for cutters) Question is, what is more effective in winning you a game? Dirk's scoring or KG's ability to deliver a nice pass to a cutter?
Garnett's rebouding >> Dirk (difference narrows in the playoffs)

[Findog]

Bottom line: Dirk and KG were both Top Five players in their prime, but they each had something holding them back from being able to ascend to that 1.0 level of Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron and Wade: Dirk's defense was never better than average and Garnett is not somebody who could take over a game in crunch time with his scoring. They're both 1.5's in my opinion.

[Cane]

Both are great players and you can't really go wrong either way.

I'm going to have to go with Dirk though. KG seems like too much to handle off the court especially a younger KG that was basically looking to start fights when things went shitty which happened often being a T-wolf. I wonder how Mark Cuban and the Mavs coaches would've handled KG's antics.

[picc84]

KG is still looking to start fights often. And against the same people as back then.

(pale, under 6'6)

[Findog]

KG is still looking to start fights often. And against the same people as back then.

(pale, under 6'6)

KG plays the same way whether it's Game 7 in May or the second night of a b2b against Indiana in January. That's good and bad. Better all-around player than Dirk,and defense is more important than offense. But in his prime, was he better than Dirk? Was 2003-2004 KG better than 2006-2007 Dirk? I think it's a coin flip.

I'll put it this way: If KG is your big man, with five minutes left in the game, the opposing team will have shot 38% from the floor, but who is going to step up and carry the team offensively down the stretch? With Dirk, the Mavs status as contenders or pretenders has always hinged on if they had a competent defensive big to pair with him (not so in the Nelson years, whereas Damp has filled that role since).

It's extremely valuable to be able to man the paint defensively the way KG could, but it's also extremely important to have a #1 offensive option who can create in crunch time. Ultimately both guys are only as good as their supporting casts.

[mogrovejo]

Garnett in his prime was a better rebounder, but he wasn't "on another plane" or whatever you want to call it. And I'm pretty sure there were more available rebounds to grab since the T-Wolves and their opponents didn't shoot as well as the Don Nelson Mavericks and their opponents. Style of play and pace plays a factor in that.


You're just too basketball literate - and not humble enough to admit you're wrong and learn something - to discuss with. That's precisely why one uses rebounding rates - because style of play and pace are factored.

It's not even comparable rebounding wise. One of the bests in an era is not comparable to a bellow average rebounder. Slightly? Marginally? You're crazy.

And honestly, you're still insisting in the "slightly better passer"? It's pathetic.

Again, people who think that scoring > everything else just belong to a peculiar age of the history of basketball. This forum, populated with lots of people who still commit that mistake, is probably one of the last examples of those times. To Dirk's advantage in scoring one can call marginal - a little more points due to higher usage rate, smaller FG%.

[mogrovejo]

Sprewell shot 40FG% for that season + 33% from 3 + couldn't play defense any more. Szerbiak was injured almost the entire season and was garbage when he came back. I remember thinking that Garnett was the only superstar with a supporting cast as bad or worse as Pierce's, but I didn't recall it was this bad. Most of those guys were out of the NBA 2 seasons later. Hoiberg in his last season and a 36 yrs old Ervin Johnson as starters, Madsen and the Kandi man as key rotational players. Trenton Hassel as the 2nd best player. Yikes. Are you honestly comparing this to the Mavs team in 2006?

[monosylab1k]

tbh mogrovejo can post as many long-winded comments as he want, he outed himself as an idiot when he said it was okay for Hollinger to pick and choose when he wanted to be a formula Nazi and when he wanted to go with his gut.

[DAF86]

:lol

Dirk - 23, 9 and 3 for his career on .509% eFG.

KG - 20, 11 and 4 for his career on .502% eFG.

Dirk's career stats: 22.9 pts, 8,5 rbds, 2,7 assts, on 473%

Since when 8,5 = 9?

Dirk (a 7 foot all-star PF) only averaged double digits on rbds one season (10.0 rbds in '02) in 12 years on the NBA.

Also 3 against 4 may not seem like much (although it is, specially for career stats) but 2,7 against 4,2 does look like a considerable margin.

lol drawing numbers.

[dirk4mvp]

lol manu > Dirk

[mogrovejo]

tbh mogrovejo can post as many long-winded comments as he want, he outed himself as an idiot when he said it was okay for Hollinger to pick and choose when he wanted to be a formula Nazi and when he wanted to go with his gut.

That's not what I said but anyway we all know you always go by the W/L record when making predictions or you never care about a team W/L record when making predictions. :wakeup

Btw, what's the Mavs record since that Hollinger article?

[monosylab1k]

Dirk's clutchness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garnett's

and that's saying something because I think Dirk has choked plenty.

[mogrovejo]

Manu in a different team - not playing 30 mpg off the bench, not under Duncan's shadow, as the primary scorer and playmaker - would put up numbers like 24/6/5 with very good defense, shot-creation and efficient overall play and be seen by the casual fan at a different light. Very underrated.

[monosylab1k]

Manu in a different team - not playing 30 mpg off the bench, not under Duncan's shadow, as the primary scorer and playmaker - would put up numbers like 24/6/5 with very good defense, shot-creation and efficient overall play and be seen by the casual fan at a different light. Very underrated.

Not since Marlon Brando's colonic has someone pulled so much out of their ass.

[Findog]

And honestly, you're still insisting in the "slightly better passer"? It's pathetic.

What's more useful in terms of helping your team? Setting up near the baseline and hitting cutters, which depends on good teammates who can finish in traffic, or being able to create your shot without having to have multiple screens set for you? Yeah, KG is a better passer, but it doesn't add to the case of him being a better player. It just means he has a more versatile skillset. You're on more solid footing by sticking to the argument that his defense is more important that Dirk's offense.


Again, people who think that scoring > everything else just belong to a peculiar age of the history of basketball.

Where did I say scoring is more important than everything else? I freely admit KG had a better all-around game than Dirk. I said in an earlier post that defense is more important in offense.


This forum, populated with lots of people who still commit that mistake, is probably one of the last examples of those times. To Dirk's advantage in scoring one can call marginal - a little more points due to higher usage rate, smaller FG%.

Hey Morey, what is "smaller FG?" I know what eFG% is and Dirk's is better than KG for his career. Their roles on offense are also different - KG either looks for cutters or takes an iffy 12-foot turnaround jumper. Dirk sets up at the foul line or elbow and either takes a jumper that is money in the bank or hits cutters from the baseline.

If we're looking at advanced stats, KG's prime was 2003-2005, Dirk's was 2005-2007. KG's best PERs were 29.4 and 28.2, Dirk's 28.1 and 27.6 Win Shares - KG 18.3 and 16.1, Dirk 17.7 and 16.3. If Dirk is nothing more than a white German McAdoo (all scoring, no D), how could he possibly impact a game at the level of a Top 10/Top 5 player?

Advanced Stats say KG was a slightly better player in his prime than Dirk was in his and I'm fine with that assessment. My personal bias is that it's a tossup and you can make a case either way for who was better. If KG was miles ahead of Dirk in rebounding, passing and defense, then how can Dirk can almost as much impact on a game when he is only "marginally better" when it comes to scoring? Is he not far more efficient when his turnover % for his career is 9% to KG's 12%? Advanced stats say he's in the ballpark of KG, but according to you, he's nothing more than a White Bob McAdoo.

[mogrovejo]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

That's why I generally don't care much about that kind of intangibles stuff. They're merely a product of very fragile perceptions. This thread proves it - the "Pierce was the Celtics best player in the playoffs" is a great example of that.

Put KG or Dirk in the Spurs when they entered the league and they'd be seen as clutch/leader/etc.

[mogrovejo]

Findog, what you think are advanced stats are mere summaries of boxscore statistics.

I just want you to learn how to use rebounding rate as the best metric to measure rebounding. Can you do that?

[monosylab1k]

I just want you to learn how to use rebounding rate as the best metric to measure rebounding. Can you do that?

So Reggie Evans is an all-time great rebounder?

[Findog]

Findog, what you think are advanced stats are mere summaries of boxscore statistics.

I just want you to learn how to use rebounding rate as the best metric to measure rebounding. Can you do that?

Total Rebound % - An estimate of the % of available rebounds a player grabs while he is on the floor. KG > Dirk. I don't agree with KG >>>> Dirk when it comes to this metric.

[Findog]

So Reggie Evans is an all-time great rebounder?

His career TRB% says he is a better rebounder than Kevin Garnett. I'm sure mogrovejo would agree.

[Findog]

Findog, what you think are advanced stats are mere summaries of boxscore statistics.



So Win Shares and PER are summaries of box score statistics and not an example of advanced stats? I don't work for an NBA front office, so how would I have access to Daryl Morey's excel spreadsheets? What am I missing? I'm not being sarcastic, I want to learn as you say. What am I missing?

[mogrovejo]

Total Rebound % - An estimate of the % of available rebounds a player grabs while he is on the floor. KG > Dirk. I don't agree with KG >>>> Dirk when it comes to this metric.

Huh? Why? Do you care to explain?

I mean, Dirk is a slightly bellow average rebounder; KG is one of the best in an era. If this difference is ">", what the heck is ">>>>"?

[monosylab1k]

His career TRB% says he is a better rebounder than Kevin Garnett. I'm sure mogrovejo would agree.

:tu mogrovejo would condescendingly shoot down the notion that Evans gets rebounds because he expends no energy on offense, and frankly no energy on defense, and puts all his energy into rebounding.

If Dirk wanted to get 15 rebounds a night, he could. But he's putting alot more energy into different areas of the game. It's easier for Garnett to pick up rebounds when he's constantly deferring to teammates in the last five minutes of a close game.

[mogrovejo]

So Win Shares and PER are summaries of box score statistics and not an example of advanced stats?

Huh, yes. That's exactly what they are. That's exactly what their authors say they are. They're linear-weighted boxscore derived summary metrics. PER; WS, NBA Eff., etc. What do you think they should be?


What am I missing? I'm not being sarcastic, I want to learn as you say. What am I missing?

How can I know? What are you missing about what?

[DAF86]

And you're honestly telling me that a core of Sprewell, Cassell, Szerbiak is not comparable to Terry, Howard and Harris?

You keep bringing the suporting cast argument with the hope that people think of those guys for what they look right now, when you know damn well that in that year all those guys played some of the best ball of their careers.

Do you remember when people started to question who was the best player in that Mavs squad: Dirk or Howard?

Terry: 17.1 pts, 47 FG% 41 3pt%

And then you had Harris, Stackhouse, Marquis Daniels, Dampier, Diop, Van Horn, Armstrong, Adrian Griffin.

You were stackeeeeed (like most of Cuban's years).

[Findog]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

Maybe by Colin Cowherd or other talk radio types who watch 5 games a year tops. I don't know of many front office execs, coaches or scouts who ever saw MJ and Iverson as essentially the same player.


That's why I generally don't care much about that kind of intangibles stuff. They're merely a product of very fragile perceptions. This thread proves it - the "Pierce was the Celtics best player in the playoffs" is a great example of that.

He didn't outplay Kobe in the Finals?

[Ghazi]

Only idiots questioned who was the Mavs best player.

Mavs were not stacked by any means. They had good depth but didn't have an all-NBA caliber sidekick to compliment Dirk. Think of the recent 2nd options on championship teams (Ginobili/Gasol/Pierce/Bryant/etc)... does JET or J-Ho come close to these kind of players?

JET/Howard were never top 25 players in the league.

But yes, '06 was a very good team... and Dirk led them to what should've been a title accordingly.

[Findog]

How can I know? What are you missing about what?

What is an example of an Advanced Stat? You say raw numbers are for children. What is an example of an advanced stat besides total rebound %? Effective Field Goal %? Offensive Rating? Turnover %?

[mogrovejo]

:tu mogrovejo would condescendingly shoot down the notion that Evans gets rebounds because he expends no energy on offense, and frankly no energy on defense, and puts all his energy into rebounding.

It's not only about the energy, it's about the time on the floor.

But Evans is a spectacular rebounder. That's why he had a NBA career.


If Dirk wanted to get 15 rebounds a night, he could. But he's putting alot more energy into different areas of the game. It's easier for Garnett to pick up rebounds when he's constantly deferring to teammates in the last five minutes of a close game.

Garnett was the best scorer in the last five minutes of close games for the Celtics in the 07/08 playoffs like he was for pretty much every team he played during his NBA career.

The problem with the rebounding is that Dirk isn't even close to Garnett. Rebounding was always one of Dirk's weaknesses. If he could rebound like Zach Randolph or one of those guys than yeah. But the difference is so gigantic that this conversation is a bit nonsensical. It's like we're discussing if Ray Allen was a better shooter than Ron Artest.

[endrity]

lol at people claiming scoring = rebounding = passes = defense in value and then finding categories in which KG is better than Dirk

You want your franchise player to be the best scorer on the floor, the one you can go to in the last minutes of a tie game and carry you to victory. That more than anything is what separates good players from the great ones. Dirk has that. If I need more rebounding I go get me a Ben Wallace for 1/4 of the price!

[Findog]

Do you remember when people started to question who was the best player in that Mavs squad: Dirk or Howard?

Who are those "people?" Retards?

[monosylab1k]

Do you remember when people started to question who was the best player in that Mavs squad: Dirk or Howard?

Yeah, that happened for about 6 weeks in the 07-08 season. AFTER the Finals appearance, AFTER 67 wins. The same season that Howard then completely tanked, admitted to smoking weed, and played like ass against New Orleans.

So yeah, all those "specialists" as you like to call it, wound up looking incredibly stupid just a few weeks after making that proclamation.

[Ghazi]

Who are those "people?" Retards?

bullsfan1000

[monosylab1k]

Garnett was the best scorer in the last five minutes of close games for the Celtics in the 07/08 playoffs like he was for pretty much every team he played during his NBA career.

:lol

[mogrovejo]

Maybe by Colin Cowherd or other talk radio types who watch 5 games a year tops. I don't know of many front office execs, coaches or scouts who ever saw MJ and Iverson as essentially the same player.

In terms of intangibles? It was a pretty consensual opinion, including in basketball circles, but absolutely hegemonic in the press. Believe me, I used to get irritated by it.


He didn't outplay Kobe in the Finals?

Yeps and Garnett was the Celtics MVP (and best crunch time scorer) for the playoffs. I understand you didn't watch though.

[mogrovejo]

Sprewell shot 40FG% for that season + 33% from 3 + couldn't play defense any more. Szerbiak was injured almost the entire season and was garbage when he came back. I remember thinking that Garnett was the only superstar with a supporting cast as bad or worse as Pierce's, but I didn't recall it was this bad. Most of those guys were out of the NBA 2 seasons later. Hoiberg in his last season and a 36 yrs old Ervin Johnson as starters, Madsen and the Kandi man as key rotational players. Trenton Hassel as the 2nd best player. Yikes. Are you honestly comparing this to the Mavs team in 2006?


With this kind of supporting cast, I doubt Dirk would win a single series.

If Findog believes they're similar in quality, I don't know what to say.

[Findog]

The problem with the rebounding is that Dirk isn't even close to Garnett. Rebounding was always one of Dirk's weaknesses.

I have a problem with the notion that a 7-footer who grabs 11 boards a game in the playoffs and 9 in the regular season isn't a good rebounder. Not as good as KG? Fine. But a weakness? I don't think so.

KG spent years in Minnesota grabbing rebounds next to Michael Olowakandi or Ervin Johnson. Dirk still managed to get 9-11 a game playing alongside Erick Dampier. You know why Dirk wasn't getting more? Because Dampier was getting to them. It's his job.

[monosylab1k]

In terms of intangibles? It was a pretty consensual opinion, including in basketball circles, but absolutely hegemonic in the press. Believe me, I used to get irritated by it.

:lmao yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to stop pulling this bullcrap out of your ass and show some proof for your unfounded claims.

*waiting for "i don't need to show proof, you find the proof"*

If you're gonna make these retarded claims, the burden of proof is on you, pal.

[mogrovejo]

What is an example of an Advanced Stat? You say raw numbers are for children. What is an example of an advanced stat besides total rebound %? Effective Field Goal %? Offensive Rating? Turnover %?

I think the definition of advanced stat is subjective. I simply don't care. You're the one bringing up the expression.

I only said that using raw numbers to measure rebounding was ridicule - and you made that point yourself when you mentioned floor time, pace, missed shots, style of play.

[DAF86]

Who are those "people?" Retards?

A lot of Mavsfans if I recall correctly, in fact a Mavfan on this site brought that up some days ago.

[mogrovejo]

:lmao yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to stop pulling this bullcrap out of your ass and show some proof for your unfounded claims.

*waiting for "i don't need to show proof, you find the proof"*

If you're gonna make these retarded claims, the burden of proof is on you, pal.

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning titles? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

[monosylab1k]

A lot of Mavsfans if I recall correctly

you don't.

[baseline bum]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

That's why I generally don't care much about that kind of intangibles stuff. They're merely a product of very fragile perceptions. This thread proves it - the "Pierce was the Celtics best player in the playoffs" is a great example of that.

Put KG or Dirk in the Spurs when they entered the league and they'd be seen as clutch/leader/etc.

I can't ever remember Jordan being seen as unclutch. Not after the series he had against Boston in 86. Maybe you could bring up the 95 ECF, but I remember everyone blaming rust and saying that wasn't the real Jordan without a full season under his belt.

[monosylab1k]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning titles? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

That's not what you said, liar. You said he had was seen in the same light as Allen Iverson, which is completely untrue. The polarizing nature of Allen Iverson completely eclipsed that of any player before him.

and :lol @ people not seeing Jordan as clutch before he won titles. He only hit a gamewinner over Craig Ehlo that is one of the most famous shots in basketball history.

[DAF86]

lol at people claiming scoring = rebounding = passes = defense in value and then finding categories in which KG is better than Dirk

You want your franchise player to be the best scorer on the floor, the one you can go to in the last minutes of a tie game and carry you to victory. That more than anything is what separates good players from the great ones. Dirk has that. If I need more rebounding I go get me a Ben Wallace for 1/4 of the price!

No, I want him to be the best player on the court.

[Findog]

With this kind of supporting cast, I doubt Dirk would win a single series.


So you're telling me Sprewell and Cassell were complete garbage that year? And that it's a complete coincidence that that year was the only year Garnett got out of the first round? You're telling me Sprewell's 20 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 steals a game in the playoffs was nothing? Cassell was nothing special that year either? Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dirk could get out of the first round with 2004 Sprewell and Cassell.

[monosylab1k]

From the sound of it, mogrovejo is some high school kid studying for SAT's, learning these fancy new words, and decided to try them out on us. And got owned like a bitch, per the usual.

[mogrovejo]

I can't ever remember Jordan being seen as unclutch.

It started even before his NBA career.


Not after the series he had against Boston in 86.

He got a lot of heat, not in 86 but in 87 for his style of play, selfishness, inability to finish games etc. He was being compared to Bird and getting the "talented but clueless" treatment (unfairly).


Maybe you could bring up the 95 ECF, but I remember everyone blaming rust and saying that wasn't the real Jordan without a full season under his belt.

Yeah, but his reputation in the 90s was radically different.

....

I don't agree that Jordan was unclutch, btw.

[monosylab1k]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

:lmao :lmao :lmao this seriously might be the most obtuse thing ever written on SpursTalk.

This has got to be worse than "Manu > Dirk" or anything Allanon has said.

[Findog]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning titles? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

You said he was seen in the EXACT same light as Allen Iverson. I remember both Shaq and MJ getting the "can't win the big one" tag thrown on them until they actually did, but that's a far cry from being considered a selfish ballhog that doesn't care about winning.

[monosylab1k]

It started even before his NBA career.

Yeah every sports writer was talking about how unclutch Jordan was right after hitting a gamewinner to take the National Championship.

[monosylab1k]

You said he was seen in the EXACT same light as Allen Iverson.

actually, he didn't. he said Jordan was seen in a worse light than Iverson :lmao

[Blake]

Rebounding was always one of Dirk's weaknesses.

fact finding appears to be one of yours

[monosylab1k]

I don't agree that Jordan was unclutch, btw.

Neither does anybody with a fully functional brain.

[mogrovejo]

You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

You could just answer "nope". :toast

[Blake]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning titles? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

1989

p5WUOnTxwPw

[mogrovejo]

fact finding appears to be one of yours

A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.

People who look at raw rebounding numbers to form an opinion are ridiculous.

[monosylab1k]

I have absolutely nothing to back up my claims

You could have said this from the beginning :toast

[Blake]

I don't agree that Jordan was unclutch, btw.

so who exactly said he was?

[mogrovejo]

but that's a far cry from being considered a selfish ballhog that doesn't care about winning.

Exactly what MJ was considered to be. Heck, even he admits that was how he was seen. Read one of the books about him.

[Findog]

fact finding appears to be one of yours



It's one thing to say Dirk isn't as good a rebounder as KG, but 9 for his career, 11 a game in the playoffs, THAT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A POOR REBOUNDER! :lmao

Defense was a real hole in his game until about 2006 and he's only about average in that regard. If you want to say defense is a weakness, fine, but rebounding? GTFO.

[mogrovejo]

How would Iverson be seen today if Shaq got injured before the 2001 Finals? I bet he'd have a much better reputation.

[monosylab1k]

Exactly what MJ was considered to be. Heck, even he admits that was how he was seen. Read one of the books about him.

:lmao you weren't around in the 80's, were you? There were times where Jordan got the "selfish ballhog" label (and rightfully so), but nobody, especially not Jordan himself, ever disputed the fact that he cared about winning.

And to say he was seen in a worse light than Allen Iverson is just a cherry on top of your bullshit sundae. apparently you weren't around in the 90's either :lmao

[monosylab1k]

How would Iverson be seen today if Shaq got injured before the 2001 Finals? I bet he'd have a much better reputation.

:lmao how would Wilt Chamberlain be seen if Bill Russell's mother got an abortion? how would Danny Ferry be seen if there was an all-out race war and black people were exterminated? how would Oliver Miller be seen if cheeseburgers gave you magical powers?

[mogrovejo]

It's one thing to say Dirk isn't as good a rebounder as KG, but 9 for his career, 11 a game in the playoffs, THAT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A POOR REBOUNDER! :lmao

Defense was a real hole in his game until about 2006 and he's only about average in that regard. If you want to say defense is a weakness, fine, but rebounding? GTFO.





A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.

People who look at raw rebounding numbers to form an opinion are ridiculous.

The irony is that you first made the case why one shouldn't use raw rebounding numbers; just to note a few moments later that the reasons you presented would exactly demonstrate why Dirk is a bellow average rebounder - and now you're back to the raw rebounding numbers. :rollin

[mogrovejo]

:lmao how would Wilt Chamberlain be seen if Bill Russell's mother got an abortion? how would Danny Ferry be seen if there was an all-out race war and black people were exterminated?

So you can't answer?

[Findog]

Exactly what MJ was considered to be. Heck, even he admits that was how he was seen. Read one of the books about him.

What I remember is that is he was considered somebody who didn't make his teammates better until Chicago finally beat the Lakers. That's way different than being a "selfish ballhog who didn't care about winning." Anybody who knew anything about Jordan's competitiveness problems off the court knew that 'selfish ballhog that doesn't care about winning' was way off the mark.

[monosylab1k]

So you can't answer?

You expect me to give a serious response to that crap? No thanks.

[Findog]

The irony is that you first made the case why one shouldn't use raw rebounding numbers; just to note a few moments later that the reasons you presented would exactly demonstrate why Dirk is a bellow average rebounder - and now you're back to the raw rebounding numbers. :rollin

He plays alongside a guy who has a rebounding rate of 19% - you don't think he'd grab a few more of those rebounds if Dampier never signed with the Mavs and they continued to roll with junk at C?

True or False: A seven-footer who grabs 9 boards a game in the regular season, along with 11 boards a game in the playoffs, playing alongside a teammate with a rebounding rate of 19%, is a poor rebounder.

If Moses Malone got in a time machine and signed with the 2002 Minnesota Timberwolves, you think KG would maintain that awesome rebound rate? :lol

[Ghazi]

Dirk's well above average as far as defensive rebound rate for his position. I dont think its fair to say hes a below average rebounder for a PF.

Although his offensive rebounding #'s have always been low

[mogrovejo]

What I remember is that is he was considered somebody who didn't make his teammates better until Chicago finally beat the Lakers.


:lmao you weren't around in the 80's, were you? There were times where Jordan got the "selfish ballhog" label (and rightfully so),


So, he was selfish, a ball-hog and didn't make his teammates better. Somehow, he was a winner...

This is BS. That's exactly how Iverson was seen - a selfish, ball-hog, who didn't make his teammates better. It's not like Iverson didn't want to win. He wanted to win and played the way he knew - as a selfish, ball-hog, who didn't make his teammates better.

That kind of intangibles - "winner", "clutch", "leader", - etc. are mostly a bunch of crap at the NBA level. It depends on the kind of press the player get, the team/market he's playing (bigger market-> better intangibles), his skin colour (whites generally have better intangibles), nationality (non Americans are generally soft/chockers even when they arent'), his clothing style, how articulate he is and, essentially, the quality of his teammates and coaches.

[mogrovejo]

True or False: A seven-footer who grabs 9 boards a game in the regular season, along with 11 boards a game in the playoffs, playing alongside a teammate with a rebounding rate of 19%, is a poor rebounder.

I didn't call him poor, I called him average/slightly bellow average. A poor rebounder is Roy Hibbert.

You definitely should stop using those raw rebounding numbers. They're pretty meaningless and can be misleading, as you've already understood.

[monosylab1k]

It's not like Iverson didn't want to win.

He had a chance to be a great bench player on a solid Memphis team this season. He passed on that because he'd rather be a starter and dominate the ball.

he had a chance to be a team player in Detroit and run the offense as a quicker, faster Billups. He passed on that because he'd rather do things his way.

He'd rather get on a soapbox bitching about how irrelevant practice is, instead of trying to help out his teammates.

To say Allen Iverson ever cared about winning is idiotic. He cared about getting his, and if he won some games along the way, cool.

[Blake]

A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.

People who look at raw rebounding numbers to form an opinion are ridiculous.

What makes you think I am looking at raw numbers to base my opinion?

What do you or Hollinger think are the cutoff %s for weak-average-good-great rebounding?

[Findog]

Iverson always wanted to win on his terms - by shooting 11-35 from the floor. If he didn't get to shoot the ball on every single possession, then he mentally checked out. You can't say that about Jordan. Iverson was unfairly maligned in some ways, but I have a hard time believing that Jordan was ever considered to be essentially the same kind of problem player as Iverson.

[Findog]

I didn't call him poor, I called him average/slightly bellow average. A poor rebounder is Roy Hibbert.

You definitely should stop using those raw rebounding numbers. They're pretty meaningless and can be misleading, as you've already understood.

You think a guy with a rebounding rate of 15% in his prime playing next to a guy with a rebounding rate of 19% is "slightly below average?" Okay. Especially when he may not be positioned in the post guarding the other team's best big?

[monosylab1k]

Iverson always wanted to win on his terms - by shooting 11-35 from the floor. If he didn't get to shoot the ball on every single possession, then he mentally checked out. You can't say that about Jordan. Iverson was unfairly maligned in some ways, but I have a hard time believing that Jordan was ever considered to be essentially the same kind of problem player as Iverson.

Jordan was an asshole to his coach and teammates, but he also made sure they knew he was never going to quit on them, and he was never going to let anything get in the way of winning. You can't even remotely say the same thing about Iverson.

[Blake]

I didn't call him poor, I called him average/slightly bellow average. A poor rebounder is Roy Hibbert.





A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.


You called him a weak rebounder.

[Native American]

Up in the sky in late summer you can see two stars shining not far from each other. They represent the story of the rival chief sons of the Iroquois. In Iroquois folklore, there were two neighboring tribes of the Iroquois nation, the two chiefs being cousins and fierce rivals from childhood as they fought over the same woman's love. The hatred manifested throughout each tribe. The two tribes decided to have a contest of skill and hunting, with the bow and arrow and tomahawk, between the sons of the two chiefs. The first son, Howling Wolf, did particularly well and after each successful feat, he would howl and bark and pound his chest. The second son, Free Spirited Horse, also did well and bested Howling Wolf in the skills portion of the contest. In the hunting contest, Howling Wolf failed to capture and kill the game bird, only to blame the pale man for the devastation to the forest trees not allowing for better camouflage. Howling Wolf swore he would fight the pale man and defeat him. Infuriated, Howling Wolf ran inconsolably to the woods and was killed by the gunshot of the pale man, pierced in the lungs, choking on the air he could no longer breathe. Free Spirited Horse was able to catch the game bird with a precisely bowed arrow. With the game bird in hand and a victory bowl of nuts and berries, Free Spirited Horse raised his trophy catch and took a handful of nuts to celebrate his victory, only to at that very moment choke on the nuts and die. The two sons of two Iroquois chiefs dead on the same day. The Great Sky Spirit took the souls of the two boys and placed them in the sky not far from each other so that the two tribes could see them and celebrate their memory, two stars. And by this story I mean who cares who's better between KG and Dirk? They're two stars who are both choke artists.

[Blake]

How would Iverson be seen today if Shaq got injured before the 2001 Finals? I bet he'd have a much better reputation.

are you asking "what if AI had won a title?"

eh, probably about the same as Dywane Wade.

too bad AI only got to the finals once.

[mavs>spurs2]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

wait, lol wut? :lmao