11 year old kid murders an 8.5 month pregnant woman

[sonic21]

PITTSBURGH — A Pennsylvania boy who was 11 when he was accused of killing his father's pregnant fiancee with a shotgun blast to the back of her head as she lay in bed will be tried as an adult in the death of both the woman and the fetus, a judge ruled Monday.

Jordan Brown, now 12, is charged with criminal homicide in the death of 26-year-old Kenzie Marie Houk in their farmhouse in New Galilee, in western Pennsylvania, on Feb. 20, 2009. Houk was 8 1/2 months pregnant; the male fetus died from a resulting lack of oxygen.

"This offense was an execution-style killing of a defenseless pregnant young mother. A more horrific crime is difficult to imagine," Lawrence County Judge Dominick Motto wrote in his opinion refusing to move the case to juvenile court.

The boy could be convicted of anything from involuntary manslaughter to first-degree murder under Pennsylvania's homicide law. Prosecutors have said they will seek a conviction on first-degree murder charges, for which he could face up to life in prison if convicted.

The attorney general's office, which is prosecuting the case, and Browns' attorneys did not immediately return calls seeking comment on the ruling.

Prosecutors have suggested the boy was jealous of Houk and her unborn son. Police had said Brown's hid the weapon under a blanket so Houk's 7-year-old daughter wouldn't see it as he entered her mother's room. Later, authorities say, he threw the spent shell casing along a path on his way to a bus and went to school.

A state trooper testified that tests showed the shell was fired from Brown's youth-model 20-gauge shotgun.

Brown's attorneys, Dennis Elisco and David Acker, had argued that the boy was too young to realize the full import of his actions and that he would best be dealt with in juvenile court, where he could receive treatment and incarceration specifically aimed at younger offenders.

Under state law, the attorneys had to convince the judge that he was more "amenable" to rehabilitation in the juvenile system — which would have jurisdiction only until he is 21 — than as an adult.

But the judge said the testimony of defense psychologist Kirk Heilbrun didn't convince him that Brown was best tried as a juvenile. Heilbrun said that the boy was likely at low risk of offending again — but the judge noted the assessment did not question whether Brown committed the crime.

Motto focused on findings by a prosecution psychiatrist, Dr. John O'Brien, who found that Brown tended to "minimize" his wrongdoing and to "deny" and "shift blame" for his misdeeds. Brown, specifically, denied killing Houk when examined by both doctors.


http://blogs.chron.com/momhouston/2010/03/why_are_kids_so_cruel_1.html

[IronMexican]

crazy

[Chomag]

Man, the world we alll live in these days...

[ploto]

Why did I read this...

[Dex]

Yet another good reason not to have guns lying around the house.

What a crazy little kid.

[bdictjames]

Another reason why America should ban guns among its citizens not in war.

[Bender]

Another reason why America should ban guns among its citizens not in war.
why can't I have guns just because there's some brain-damaged wackos out there.

why don't we just become nazi germany?

[Bukefal]

Another reason why America should ban guns among its citizens not in war.

+1

They should really ban guns indeed.

[Bukefal]

why can't I have guns just because there's some brain-damaged wackos out there.

why don't we just become nazi germany?

Why? because these incidents happen a bit too much in your country don't you think? USA has the biggest problems and highest rate in the world with gun incidents. Do you think it's normal to get a gun just in a shop on every freakin corner and even in supermarkets?

You wouldnt have had such high school shooting bloodbaths. At least, the risk of having that would have been alot less if were difficult for kids to get guns.

Nothing to do with Nazi germany, I dont even know why you brought that up.

[Shaolin-Style]

Kid knew what he was doing was wrong, evil little bastard tried to hide the evidence. I hope he loses the right to his childhood and his early adult years.

Banning guns wouldn't have stopped this, he was on a mission to kill her, he'd have used a knife if he didn't have access to a gun.

[Bender]

you people that don't live in the US don't know anything about anything. I've been living here all my life and I have NEVER been in any kind of trouble whatsoever.

BUT I can't just walk in anywhere and buy a gun. If I go somewhere to buy a gun, I have to go through a background check.... federal and local.

yeah I want to live in countries like these:


Gun ownership in the People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) outside of the military, police, and paramilitary is forbidden.

the Nazis did benefit significantly from gun control in Eastern Europe in terms of "the inability of their victims to fight back.

go Stalin!
go Lenin!
go Hitler!
go Mao!

[Pero]

Another reason why America should ban guns among its citizens not in war.

Yes I'm sure the government would love that. Will make controlling the people much easier.

[Bukefal]

Do it like they do in other countries, have some effective gun control only with a strict licence.

Don't you want your country to be more safe and peaceful? Don't you want to keep crime out of your country as much as possible? I think everyone wants that.

Of course banning guns, will not erase crime 100%, but it's a step in the good direction. At least there will be less murders and especially gun crimes with kids involved if it would be very hard for them to get one.

Don't you want to give up your gun hobby if it means it will save some peoples lives? Even if it's a couple? But still a ban doesnt mean you have to give up your hobby completely. Get a gun with strict licences and go shoot in a shooting club or something.

[Bukefal]

you people that don't live in the US don't know anything about anything. I've been living here all my life and I have NEVER been in any kind of trouble whatsoever.

BUT I can't just walk in anywhere and buy a gun. If I go somewhere to buy a gun, I have to go through a background check.... federal and local.

yeah I want to live in countries like these:




go Stalin!
go Lenin!
go Hitler!
go Mao!

Ok, but im interested, other than shooting for fun or as a sport. What do you need a gun for??

[HarlemHeat37]

Banning guns would be ridiculous IMO..there's nothing wrong with owning guns..just because there are a lot of idiots out there, that shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us..as somebody else said, if he didn't kill her with a gun, he would have used something else..killing isn't reserved to guns..

Even if they banned guns, it would be easy to get one anyways..I had access to guns before I was even in High School, you can buy them anywhere in the inner city..the law wouldn't change anything, people would still find ways to get guns..it's not like they're going to stop making them all over the world..

11 years old is old enough to know what you're doing..the kid will go to jail, hopefully for a long time, that's the punishment..that's it..

[Pero]

Don't you want your country to be more safe and peaceful? Don't you want to keep crime out of your country as much as possible?

Being allowed to have guns or not doesn't have much to do with those things.



At least there will be less murders and especially gun crimes with kids involved if it would be very hard for them to get one.

If you really want to kill someone you'll find a way. If it isn't with a gun, it'll be a knife. If it isn't a knife you'll use your bare hands. Or run him over with your car. Perhaps it's easier with a gun, and if you had to use a different way you'd get discouraged. I don't know, never tried.

I agree that it would be more difficult for kids though.

[Frenzy]

ban guns...

ban boards with nails in it too.

[Pero]

Ok, but im interested, other than shooting for fun or as a sport. What do you need a gun for??

Defense.
Although I have to say I'm not really pro-gun person, more like the opposite.

[Bukefal]

Banning guns would be ridiculous IMO..there's nothing wrong with owning guns..just because there are a lot of idiots out there, that shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us..as somebody else said, if he didn't kill her with a gun, he would have used something else..killing isn't reserved to guns..


There is nothing wrong with people owning guns if they are under a strict licence. It works for other countries, why not in usa? They shouldnt make it so easy for someone to get a gun just like that.


Even if they banned guns, it would be easy to get one anyways..I had access to guns before I was even in High School, you can buy them anywhere in the inner city..the law wouldn't change anything, people would still find ways to get guns..it's not like they're going to stop making them all over the world..


This. In alot of countries a high school kid doesnt have a clue where to get a gun. So they cant get one thus crime involving kids with guns is a lot less.


11 years old is old enough to know what you're doing..the kid will go to jail, hopefully for a long time, that's the punishment..that's it..

Really? Well, apparently 11 years is not old enough to know what you are doing.

[Pero]

Really? Well, apparently 11 years is not old enough to know what you are doing.

Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean here.

[Bukefal]

Defense.
Although I have to say I'm not really pro-gun person, more like the opposite.

Ok, but defense from what? From so called enemies? Some terorrists who will someday invade the country? :)

Defense is a matter of your state and it should be a matter of your state. I dont think its a good thing to have defense and gun control in the hands of the people, of everyone. Or defense against criminals? Well, that's a point, but then again, if there were less guns, there will be less criminality. Plus if you want to be part of defense, why not join the local police academy?

[Dex]

FTR, I don't have a problem with people owning firearms, as long as they are legally owned and registered, and safely kept. These parents obviously did not take the proper care to put their gun under safe and key or in a safe place, and a weapon like that is too much power in a child's hands.

Personally, I don't own a gun, but I respect the right for others to do so. That being said, I never saw the practicality in this day and age. The only real reason to have a gun is to protect yourself or your family if somebody breaks onto your property. Outside of that, carrying a gun around is just asking for trouble. It's not like we've got to worry about getting attacked by bears anymore.

In heated situations, people turn into unreasonable idiots.

[Bukefal]

Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean here.

Well, I dont think 11 years old is a standard for expecting kids to know what they are doing. They dont know shit. And that shows it, this kid didnt know what he was doing either. Fortunatelly, most of 11 year olds do know what they are doing.

[Bukefal]

FTR, I don't have a problem with people owning firearms, as long as they are legally owned and registered. Personally, I don't own a gun, but I respect the right for others to do so.

That being said, I never saw the practicality in this day and age. The only real reason to have a gun is to protect yourself or your family if somebody breaks onto your property. Outside of that, carrying a gun around is just asking for trouble. It's not like we've got to worry about getting attacked by bears anymore.

In heated situations, people turn into unreasonable idiots.

True. Also would you be comfortable with knowing a family has guns in their homes? I mean in situations where things get heated up and there are incidents, people will use their guns faster when, even if they do not have the intention to cause harm.

[Pero]

Ok, but defense from what? From so called enemies? Some terorrists who will someday invade the country? :)


Not terrorists as in the foreign ones, but domestic ones.



Defense is a matter of your state and it should be a matter of your state.

Who'll defend you when the state turns on you?



I dont think its a good thing to have defense and gun control in the hands of the people, of everyone.

I guess it's a two-edged sword.

[Dex]

True. Also would you be comfortable with knowing a family has guns in their homes? I mean in situations where things get heated up and there are incidents, people will use their guns faster when, even if they do not have the intention to cause harm.

Exactly. People do stupid things when they are angry, and it's too easy to pull a trigger without fully considering the implications.

[Pero]

Well, I dont think 11 years old is a standard for expecting kids to know what they are doing. They dont know shit. And that shows it, this kid didnt know what he was doing either. Fortunatelly, most of 11 year olds do know what they are doing.

I don't agree because what shows it? That he killed someone? How is that an argument? Adults kill others all the time, does that somehow make them not know what they're doing? Ok, you could argue it philosophically or something.

[Bukefal]

Who'll defend you when the state turns on you?



Well, if we were talking about a nation like Congo or Eritrea or something, It would have been a reasonable point, but come on.

If you let people taking things into their own hands, you will get a wild west nation. No authority, chaos. Like the Clans in Albanian highlands or in the medieval. Everybody has a different perspective of what is right, chaos.

[mouse]

Weed and crack are illegal, go try and see how hard it is to get some. If it was a matter of how easy it is to get guns, then all the gun shop owners should have all their kids in jails and prisons by now. Wouldn't they be the first to kill people since the guns are right there at daddy's business?

What's wrong with good parenting, that's where all the shit starts.

my 2 cents.

[Shaolin-Style]

I like how "Ban guns" is the cool answer to solving problems like this to most people. His intention was to kill, he'd have done it however possible. He could have poisoned her, stabbed her, lit her on fire, ran her over with a car, smothered her in her sleep, bashed her head with a baseball bat...you name it. But he used a gun and all of the sudden the answer to preventing this crime is "Ban guns."

You wish it was that simple.

[Bukefal]

I don't agree because what shows it? That he killed someone? How is that an argument? Adults kill others all the time, does that somehow make them not know what they're doing? Ok, you could argue it philosophically or something.

I mean 11 year old kids, dont know shit yet. They are still 'green', influenced, have no idea of how the world is. What's good or wrong. Especially when they are obsessed with violent videogames and movies and if they come from violent domestic backgrounds.

Of course, most 11 year olds are normal and do know whats right and wrong. But you cant see that as a standard to expect 11 year olds to know what they are doing.

With adults its a different thing, they are fully grown, and if they still dont know what they are doing, well than its just a matter of being dumb, sick or who knows what else. They wont develop any further.

[Bender]

Ok, but im interested, other than shooting for fun or as a sport. What do you need a gun for??
I don't NEED a gun, but I want to be able to have one if I want.

I have a pretty good collection, including some over 100 years old. I enjoy the collecting aspect of gun ownership. I also enjoy shooting them (at local shooting ranges). Plus, my son and I go shooting together as a father/son thing. He's 12, and very responsible. He handles them properly and safely. My guns are locked up in two gun safes.

my guns have never killed anybody while owned by me. My guns don't leave by themselves at night while I'm sleeping and commit crime sprees.

the USA has plently of "gun free" zones... schools, churches, etc.

Yep, guess where all the mass shootings happen.... that's right, in the good old safe "gun free" zones.

[Bukefal]

I like how "Ban guns" is the cool answer to solving problems like this to most people. His intention was to kill, he'd have done it however possible. He could have poisoned her, stabbed her, lit her on fire, ran her over with a car, smother her in her sleep, bashed her head with a baseball bat...you name it. But he used a gun and all of the sudden the answer to preventing this crime is "Ban guns."

You wish it was that simple.

Well, it isnt about this kid in particular. But I do think when you control or even ban guns, crime will drop, especially in the USA. I think you can't deny that. You have the highest rates of crime involving guns in the western world. Dont you think it has something to do with that?

You will make it harder for people especially kids to get guns, they will not use them so easy, also as I said before, people who are in a heated situation, will use a gun if things get heated up. If they know they have one in their bedroom, they'll use it faster, even though they did not have the intention to do so in the first place.

[Pero]

Exactly. People do stupid things when they are angry, and it's too easy to pull a trigger without fully considering the implications.

Sucks, but this is true. People should really take a good look at themselves and see if they can be responsible enough with having a gun.
For me back when I was practicing martial arts (including knife fighting) there was a time when I was a little enamored with having a knife. But after thinking about it a little more deeply I realised it's better not to get it for the time being, because some shit may start to happen which may not be that serious but if get scared I might pull it out and then I'd probably have to use it.

Maybe they should give people pysch evaluation before allowing them to get a gun.

[Bukefal]

I don't NEED a gun, but I want to be able to have one if I want.

I have a pretty good collection, including some over 100 years old. I enjoy the collecting aspect of gun ownership. I also enjoy shooting them (at local shooting ranges). Plus, my son and I go shooting together as a father/son thing. He's 12, and very responsible. He handles them properly and safely. My guns are locked up in two gun safes.

my guns have never killed anybody while owned by me. My guns don't leave by themselves at night while I'm sleeping and commit crime sprees.

Well, so you use it as a hobby. I can see that. And im not saying guns should be banned totally. Im just saying they should make it very hard for people and kids to get guns. If you want a gun, they should make it under a very strict gun control, with licences. I mean in other countries, also in europe there are people like you who do it for a hobby and it works for those countries with strict licences, why not for you?

[mouse]

I don't NEED a gun, but I want to be able to have one if I want.


Why should a hard working tax paying citizen like yourself have a gun? why so you can protect your family and property? get real!! Sorry dude, you will have to come up with a better reason than that.

[Pero]

Well, if we were talking about a nation like Congo or Eritrea or something, It would have been a reasonable point, but come on.

I hope you're right.



If you let people taking things into their own hands, you will get a wild west nation. No authority, chaos. Like the Clans in Albanian highlands or in the medieval. Everybody has a different perspective of what is right, chaos.


Yeah you're right and I'm not saying people should take things in their own hands like that.

[Bender]

all US states are different. Some states it is very difficult to get a gun, with lots of licensing requirements and stuff. Some states ban all sorts of guns.

It sure is weird that states with lax gun laws have low gun crime. States with severely strict laws, and even bans, have very high violent crime rates.

[Shaolin-Style]

Well, it isnt about this kid in particular. But I do think when you control or even ban guns, crime will drop, especially in the USA. I think you can't deny that. You have the highest rates of crime involving guns in the western world. Dont you think it has something to do with that?

You will make it harder for people especially kids to get guns, they will not use them so easy, also as I said before, people who are in a heated situation, will not use a gun if things get heated up. If they know they have one in their bedroom, they'll use it faster, even though they did not have the intention to do so in the first place.


Crime would increase I believe. Home invasions in particular. The fear of breaking into peoples houses at night is that you will be shot. I think what every thief would tell you is the major fear is getting caught and possibly getting shot. Everyone will look more vulnerable here.

Guns would still be available also. If guns were ever banned, it would be impossible for the government to seize them all. Whos going to have the best access to guns if they're banned? Probably gangs and other lowlives.

Would accidental deaths related to guns decrease? Certainly. But if you're arguing crimes going to decrease, I'd have to 100% disagree.

[Pero]

I mean 11 year old kids, dont know shit yet. They are still 'green', influenced, have no idea of how the world is. What's good or wrong. Especially when they are obsessed with violent videogames and movies and if they come from violent domestic backgrounds.

Of course, most 11 year olds are normal and do know whats right and wrong. But you cant see that as a standard to expect 11 year olds to know what they are doing.

I see your point, and maybe in a different case I could agree with you, but not here.


With adults its a different thing, they are fully grown, and if they still dont know what they are doing, well than its just a matter of being dumb, sick or who knows what else. They wont develop any further.


I'm not convinced how well a kid who commited an assasination at 11 will be developed further in the juvenile system. Maybe if he got the correct attention, but that seems highly unlikely. Of course on the other hand I don't believe he'll develop (in a good way) in the adult prison system either.

[Bukefal]

Crime would increase I believe. Home invasions in particular. The fear of breaking into peoples houses at night is that you will be shot. I think what every thief would tell you is the major fear is getting caught and possibly getting shot. Everyone will look more vulnerable here.

Guns would still be available also. If guns were ever banned, it would be impossible for the government to seize them all. Whos going to have the best access to guns if they're banned? Probably gangs and other lowlives.

Would accidental deaths related to guns decrease? Certainly. But if you're arguing crimes going to decrease, I'd have to 100% disagree.

I know, gangs will always have access to guns and even if there is a ban they'll continue to do so. We have that over here too. But you would at least make it impossible(impossible is nothing) or at least more difficult for kids to get guns. Also would it make drop crime with guns by normal people who are not in a gang, but got caught up in some situation, with drugs or alcohol or who knows what else involved, they will use guns faster if they have one even when they did not have any intention to use it before that. I think these cases are a huge part.

[Pero]

Oh on a lighter note, Bukefal, in February my friend, whose parents are from Macedonia, brought a kind of home made schnops from there. It was really strong, couldn't even take a sip without drinking some water after it. But after I got a little drunk I started drinking it more easily.......... And the result -> I haven't been so trashed in two years and didn't have a hangover like that in 7 years. :lol

[Bukefal]

Oh on a lighter note, Bukefal, in February my friend, whose parents are from Macedonia, brought a kind of home made schnops from there. It was really strong, couldn't even take a sip without drinking some water after it. But after I got a little drunk I started drinking it more easily.......... And the result -> I haven't been so trashed in two years and didn't have a hangover like that in 7 years. :lol

lolll Must have been Rakija :lol haha especially home made, is very strong, higher than 60 %

[Pero]

lolll Must have been Rakija :lol haha especially home made, is very strong, higher than 60 %

Yeah probably, though when we asked him what it was he said he doesn't know. Was definitely over 50%. In any case I don't plan on drinking much of what he brings next time. :lol

The funny thing is that this Saturday I was talking with some girls that were with us and they said I didn't even look drunk to them but pretty normal and were completely surprised I was actually so wasted.
They said we were dancing and then I just said I have to go the toilet and I didn't come back haha. The next part of the story was told by another friend who was at the toilet and when he came out he saw me leaning with my head against the wall and I told him "dude help me". I don't remember any of this. :lol

[Bukefal]

Yeah probably, though when we asked him what it was he said he doesn't know. Was definitely over 50%. In any case I don't plan on drinking much of what he brings next time. :lol

The funny thing is that this Saturday I was talking with some girls that were with us and they said I didn't even look drunk to them but pretty normal and were completely surprised I was actually so wasted.
They said we were dancing and then I just said I have to go the toilet and I didn't come back haha. The next part of the story was told by another friend who was at the toilet and when he came out he saw me leaning with my head against the wall and I told him "dude help me". I don't remember any of this. :lol

haha yeah rakija makes you feel fucked up. But you are right about not noticing that you are wasted, like with other drinks. It might even give you some more force or energy :lol Many drink it when they are working, construction workers etc.

I dont like it so much, too strong for me. I only drink hot rakija in the winter sometimes. :lol

[Pero]

I dont like it so much, too strong for me. I only drink hot rakija in the winter sometimes. :lol

Hot rakija? Why LMAO? :D
It's so hot by itself I almost could've walked naked around in winter after drinking it. :lol

[Bukefal]

Hot rakija? Why LMAO? :D
It's so hot by itself I almost could've walked naked around in winter after drinking it. :lol

:lol well, if its heated the alcohol % drops. Its very nice with some sugar, warm, for your throat on very cold snowy winter days. :toast

[Pero]

:lol well, if its heated the alcohol % drops. Its very nice with some sugar, warm, for your throat on very cold snowy winter days. :toast

Ok I'll take your word for it hehe, won't try it myself. :)

[ploto]

I know I made a couple of parents mad, but my child was never allowed to visit classmates' houses if they owned a gun in their house.

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

wow thats crazy

[The Reckoning]

hunting. without it, our cities would run amok with deer, dove, and boars.

[angrydude]

hunting. without it, our cities would run amok with deer, dove, and boars.

+1

in some parts of the country its really true.

[MiamiHeat]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8650/criminalguns.jpg

[whottt]

I grew up with guns in the house..Dex is right.

Every tim there was a fight me and my brothers had to be stopped from grabbing a shotgun and shooting our pregnant mother in the head. Nearly happened all the time. I guess we were the lucky ones that we never acted on our urge to take a shotgun, walkup behind our pregnant mother, and shoot her in the back of the head. Whew.

I feel sorry for all the preganant mothers that are shot by 11 year old boys in the back of the head daily, which is most of them. That own guns anyway.


Did you guys hear about that person that ran over that other person with a car? If there was ever proof cars need to be outlawed. That is it.

And also...this lightning shit. Did you guys hear about that guy that got struck by lightning? It's an epidemic I tell you. If we can figure out a way to outlaw lightning, we surely should.

[whottt]

This dude just choked on a chicken bone. I been saying for years chicken needs to be outlawed, and if it were, that dude would still be alive right now.

And this other dude bashed that kid over the head with a rock...same thing, no rocks, no kid bahsed over the head.

[The Franchise]

Well, I've owned guns for 16 years. I have a license to carry a concealed weapon (and have done so). I have also been in a few heated arguments in that time, involved in two robberies, and have never once thought of pulling a gun to solve any of them. I do agree with bukefal about giving psych evaluations to people buying guns, but not overly restrictive laws making it nearly impossible to get one. I don't feel I should be punished because some developmentally delayed lummox can't control his/herself. As far as the kid in this story, he should be imprisoned for the rest of his natural life. At 11 I knew exactly what would happen to me if I were to shoot and kill someone. As a matter of fact I knew at 6, so I don't understand where this too ignorant to know any better argument comes from. You don't go pick up a shotgun, put it to the back of someone's head, and blow their brains out by accident. That little motherfucker knew exactly what he was doing, and shouldn't be allowed any special treatment because he's 11.

[whottt]

Well, I've owned guns for 16 years. I have a license to carry a concealed weapon (and have done so). I have also been in a few heated arguments in that time, involved in two robberies, and have never once thought of pulling a gun to solve any of them. I do agree with bukefal about giving psych evaluations to people buying guns, but not overly restrictive laws making it nearly impossible to get one. I don't feel I should be punished because some developmentally delayed lummox can't control his/herself. As far as the kid in this story, he should be imprisoned for the rest of his natural life. At 11 I knew exactly what would happen to me if I were to shoot and kill someone. As a matter of fact I knew at 6, so I don't understand where this too ignorant to know any better argument comes from. You don't go pick up a shotgun, put it to the back of someone's head, and blow their brains out by accident. That little motherfucker knew exactly what he was doing, and shouldn't be allowed any special treatment because he's 11.

Personally I think it's the video games that glorify violence. Too much violence for a young mind to handle.


Since our founding fathers, wisely, guaranteed us the constitional right to bear arms, and they serve various purposes like

defending ourselves from intruders or attackers on the admittedly slim chance that might happen
defending ourselves from invasion
defending ourselves from our own government


whereas video games serve no purpose except to glorify and desensitize children to violence

I think we should just take the video games away from the kids. Propbably violent cable tv shows too. And movies.

[Scola]

wow this stupid kid ruined so many lives, kinda sad...

I know hes only 11 years old but I think he should rot in jail for the rest of his life. I don't care that hes 11, he did the crime now he needs to face the punishment.

Ultimately this was a failure of the parents, for not locking up their guns properly and for not teaching the kid better. Getting rid of guns is a bad idea but I do support stricter gun control laws. This way we don't punish everyone for the actions of a few and the responsible people aren't affected.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL @ whott's posts in this thread..quality..

[montgod]

Sad... he probably attended the same school that put on the Scarface play.

[LnGrrrR]

They should be charging the Dad for negligent homicide, if the gun is his. No way should an 11 year old be able to access guns without constant, proper supervision.

[LnGrrrR]

I think we should just take the video games away from the kids. Propbably violent cable tv shows too. And movies.

Hey, I ripped out spines when I was a kid playing MK, and I turned into a (somewhat) well-adjusted, productive member of society.

As long as parents are there to explain violence in movies, and why it occurs, I don't see it as necessarily a 'bad' thing.

But feel free to do so for your children whottt :tu :)

[Trainwreck2100]

Im gonna get in trouble for this, but shotgun to the head is pretty fuckin gangsta.

[polandprzem]

Now tell me that all video games where you are able to kill educate ...

[SAGambler]

Another reason why America should ban guns among its citizens not in war.

So then he would just take a butcher knife and stab her to death. Or an axe from the garage and just chop her head off.

People, it's not the "gun" that's the problem. It's the idiots who have access to them.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. And where there's a will, there's a way.

Remember, man was killing man long before the invention of the "terrible gun".

[SAGambler]

They should be charging the Dad for negligent homicide, if the gun is his. No way should an 11 year old be able to access guns without constant, proper supervision.

It's odd, but when I was growing up in the 50s, every kid I knew either owned a gun or had access to one. My Grandad gave me my first gun when I was like 8 years old. And most every male kid I knew had one.

But no one I knew went around killing people with them. In fact as a teen growing up, I can't recall one incident.

So it's got to be something else that has evolved in the last 65 years, that has created this "kill, and damn the consequences" attitude.

Guns were around long before all this killing that goes on today.

[easjer]

I don't worry about the people who go through the licensing requirements to acquire guns.

I worry about the people who don't.

And those people will continue to have access to weapons. They aren't getting them legally, and that isn't going to stop. I don't own a gun. I have no desire to own a gun. Because we plan to have children, any guns we did ever own would be in a gun safe, broken down, with bullets locked in another location. Which, for home defense, is pretty useless, which is why I don't own a gun.

But I don't want that right removed from me, as a lawful citizen.

[LnGrrrR]

It's odd, but when I was growing up in the 50s, every kid I knew either owned a gun or had access to one. My Grandad gave me my first gun when I was like 8 years old. And most every male kid I knew had one.

But no one I knew went around killing people with them. In fact as a teen growing up, I can't recall one incident.

So it's got to be something else that has evolved in the last 65 years, that has created this "kill, and damn the consequences" attitude.

Guns were around long before all this killing that goes on today.

To be fair, it may have happened back then. The media infrastructure wouldn't have existed to carry the story quite as far or as fast as it does today.

[whottt]

Hey, I ripped out spines when I was a kid playing MK, and I turned into a (somewhat) well-adjusted, productive member of society.

As long as parents are there to explain violence in movies, and why it occurs, I don't see it as necessarily a 'bad' thing.

But feel free to do so for your children whottt :tu :)

No..I'm one of those people that knows what's best for everyone and feels qualified telling people how they should live their lives.

First time I see any legislation banning video games and can have the opportunity to impose it upon everyone else...I'm going to do so.

[easjer]

whottt - is it ok to be a little in love with you because of this thread? I'm sure SFIE wouldn't mind.

[BlackSwordsMan]

this is why white people shouldnt own guns

[whottt]

whottt - is it ok to be a little in love with you because of this thread? I'm sure SFIE wouldn't mind.

Thank you easjer. And remember, nothing says thanks like bravatars :toast

[DarkReign]

What is the point of having a juvenille system when in every case of murder, the non-adult is charged as an adult.

Make-a no sense, to me. Is he a child (as in, under 18 years of age)? yes? Then he is charged as a child.

Say what you want, but what is the point?

What separates an 11 year old murderer from an 11 year old armed robbery in one being charged as an adult and the other not?

Makes no sense, and I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why some kids are being charged in this manner. Disturbing that this country is so quick to defend children in every negligible moral gray area, but will put one to death just as soon as they kill someone.

[easjer]

Well, you are exaggerating - not every case is tried as an adult. Or there wouldn't be so many cases in juvenile court.

What I've been given to understand is that it has to do with one of two things - the understanding and mental ability of the perpetrator of the crime to recognize the crime as being right or wrong (especially in relation to the level of planning involved, which could speak to the maturity of the child in question) and the perceived ability for rehabilitation of the child and the potential for future contributions to society.

There probably are children who really shouldn't be given a second chance or whose crimes are so severe and reprehensible that the only way to protect society from them is to treat them as adults so they can be jailed for the long-term.

Mind you, none of that is meant to argue in favor of or against. Just how I understand the distinctions. I've never given a lot of thought to whether or not all criminals should be treated equally under the law without respect to age, or whether all crimes should be dissected by the age of the perpetrator without regard to the severity of the crime.

[Dex]

Now tell me that all video games where you are able to kill educate ...

Do they have murder in Poland? :)

[DarkReign]

Well, you are exaggerating - not every case is tried as an adult. Or there wouldn't be so many cases in juvenile court.

I cant think of a single underage 1st degree murder trial that wasnt tried as an adult. It obviously doesnt mean they dont exist, just that I havent heard or seen one.

I am sure there are plenty of manslaughter (accidental shootings) and 2nd degree murder (rage fueled), but I dont know.


What I've been given to understand is that it has to do with one of two things - the understanding and mental ability of the perpetrator of the crime to recognize the crime as being right or wrong (especially in relation to the level of planning involved, which could speak to the maturity of the child in question) and the perceived ability for rehabilitation of the child and the potential for future contributions to society.

But do you see the paradox? A child is a child in the eyes of the law until they prove otherwise by way of murder?

By what standard? Mental capacity of an undeveloped, highly immature personality?

If "child", by definition of the law, is just a flexible term to be misused when convenient, then why have a distinction at all? Get em a job, start paying taxes and recruiting 11 year olds in the military immediately.

I mean, why not, right? If one 11 year old is "mature" enough to plot and execute a murder and be held to an adult standard in the eyes of the law, then it is safe to say that all 11 year olds at least have the capacity to do so and therefore should be afforded no special protection under law.

Its very spurious.

Or is murder the demarcation line between being considered an adolescent and being an adult?

If thats the underlying issue at hand, then we as a society, IMO, have fallen further than imagined. The capacity to kill determines maturity and we're more than willing to lock children up for the rest of their life based on that gruesome standard.

[Shaolin-Style]

Video games where you are able to kill are apart of critical thinking and problem solving.

Like math.

[phxspurfan]

this is why white people shouldnt own guns

:lol