Parker should be our 6th man when he comes back.

[chazley]

Discuss.

[venitian navigator]

Imho it all depends by the teams we're gonna face in the play offs...'cause, for example, the best matchup for us for Parker, if we play the Lakers, is against Fisher (Parker too young and quick for him... and that is our best weapon against L.A.)

[dbreiden83080]

Imho it all depends by the teams we're gonna face in the play offs...'cause, for example, the best matchup for us for Parker, if we play the Lakers, is against Fisher (Parker too young and quick for him... and that is our best weapon against L.A.)

Agreed

[kaji157]

Imho it all depends by the teams we're gonna face in the play offs...'cause, for example, the best matchup for us for Parker, if we play the Lakers, is against Fisher (Parker too young and quick for him... and that is our best weapon against L.A.)

Not to say that Hill is also our best matchup with Shanon Brown or Farmar which are stronger.

[xellos88330]

Imho it all depends by the teams we're gonna face in the play offs...'cause, for example, the best matchup for us for Parker, if we play the Lakers, is against Fisher (Parker too young and quick for him... and that is our best weapon against L.A.)

I agree with this.

I said before that bringing Parker off the bench has its upside, but it will only work on certain teams.

[stéphane]

What is the difference between a 30mpg starter and a 30mpg 6th man again?

[chazley]

What is the difference between a 30mpg starter and a 30mpg 6th man again?

Our starting lineup is starting games very well and RJ is much better with Manu handling the ball alot more.

If Parker starts, Manu goes back to the 6th man role. I think that would be a TERRIBLE mistake considering how dominant he has been as a starter.

[greyforest]

What is the difference between a 30mpg starter and a 30mpg 6th man again?

what about 8 min starters and 38 min 6th man? i think that happened earlier this season

[stéphane]

Our starting lineup is starting games very well and RJ is much better with Manu handling the ball alot more.

If Parker starts, Manu goes back to the 6th man role. I think that would be a TERRIBLE mistake considering how dominant he has been as a starter.

I was being sarcastic.
The question popped a thousand times with Manu. The thing is the starting lineup is only about 5-8mins anyway but Manu will play 30min and so will Tony. So they'll be out there together for most of the game.
I agree RJ is playing better for a month and that's about when Tony got hurt but I'm not sold on the fact that Manu and RJ playing better ball is solely linked to the fact that Tony ain't playing. Earlier this season, RJ couldn't hit anything be it WIDE open Js or even blowing f***ing layups lol. Manu has definitely gotten over is physical problems and is the sole reason the spurs have been winning most games lately. He's dominating games.
On a side note, one could argue that Tim depreciating stats are directly linked with Tony's absence. That would be as valid as an hypothesis as RJ playing better without Tony.
Playing together as a team is a difficult thing to accomplish. The sense of urgency about our record has something to do with the results (huhu Pop?).

[weebo]

GHill is more than capable of destroying Fisher. Coming back, Parker is the one that will have to adjust with the starters playing well.

[WalterBenitez]

I was planning to open a thread like this, but I was lazy a couple og nights ago.:wow

It comes to my mind two reason:

1. How to add TP's minutes after injury, a calm approach should be bringing him from the bench to play some minutes with first/secong unit.

That makes sense IMHO, the challenges is to be cool with TP since he should go in easy mode to recover his rol and game.

Hill + Manu keeping their present role would be fantastic.

Mid/long term I am afraid of TP's ego with this approach, and how effectivily (?) he could manage/sparks second unit (as Manu/George do).

2. What about adding TP as starter as soon as he got a medical "clearance" (?), I'm quite sure TP will do well.

I'm afraid of how TP will manage the team since his absence could have changed the "team" a little.

Hill/Manu back to previous role, for sure Manu wouldn't care (at least as he publicly sais many time) being subs, the question mark will go to George in the second unit.

Time to go, nice thread to follow.

[mingus]

it's like people forget this is the guy that, when healthy, was a Finals MVP. and he's still capable of that.

i also think he's smart enough and capable of being that same scoring threat if he's asked to, or when the offense needs it, but also not disrupting the chemistry that's going on right now b/w with Manu and RJ specifcally. i think he's capable enough, IOW, of doing exactly what George Hill is doing right now offensively, but better. he just has to be healthy and like he was a year ago. it's unfortunate that Parker isn't a 3-point threat, which helps spacing, but i think he can mold his game to fit RJ's and get a chemistry b/w himself, Man, and RJ.

i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt; and i'm going to blame the fact that it didn't happen before on him being injured. i hope i'm right.

[BillMc]

What is Pop's history with bring major players back from injury? Do they automatically get their starting jobs back? Or do they have to earn them?

[Brazil]

I really don't care if he starts or no, point is trying to maximize the PT of our best player right now who is Manu. If to do so the option is to let parker as our 6th man I'm fine with that.

If parker comes back even at 80% I'd go with him and Manu in the starting 5, I think Hill can do the Manu job for the second unit.

[benefactor]

http://www.arsjerm.net/misc/searchfirst.gif

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148733

[Slippy]

I really don't care if he starts or no, point is trying to maximize the PT of our best player right now who is Manu. If to do so the option is to let parker as our 6th man I'm fine with that.





Agree. Add maximizing your teammates.

Pop will do what's rquired. I can't see Tony's ego getting in the way if he were to be the sixth man as long as he finishes. He will stil get to do his thing.

[Kamnik]

Maybe this is the right thing to do so the initial momentum is created by the current starting 5 which is functioning beautifully. Parker can still get 35 or so minutes anyways.

ROGER MASON MUST GET 0 MINUTES EVERY AND EACH GAME!

[TJastal]

Maybe this is the right thing to do so the initial momentum is created by the current starting 5 which is functioning beautifully. Parker can still get 35 or so minutes anyways.

ROGER MASON MUST GET 0 MINUTES EVERY AND EACH GAME!

When Parker comes back if Popped has any balls he'll make TP come off the bench to do most of the scoring in the 2nd unit.

If this happens (and I'm betting it won't), I'd still prefer to see a Parker/Mason as the 2nd unit backcourt. Roger is the all around better player over Bogans IMO.

[silverblk mystix]

agree with the OP...

imagine having a quick,healthy parker to come in and tear other teams bench a new a-hole...

also , he can ease in to a starting role without disrupting team chemistry...

earlier in the season , with parker starting....Manu had to come in and try to bring the spurs back from a deficit----mainly because of garbage like finley---but also because of the lack of chemistry with parker/RJ---

but imagine if Parker can come in at the end of the first quarter---fresh---and with a spurs lead to work with....imagine

[TJastal]

agree with the OP...

imagine having a quick,healthy parker to come in and tear other teams bench a new a-hole...

also , he can ease in to a starting role without disrupting team chemistry...

earlier in the season , with parker starting....Manu had to come in and try to bring the spurs back from a deficit----mainly because of garbage like finley---but also because of the lack of chemistry with parker/RJ---

but imagine if Parker can come in at the end of the first quarter---fresh---and with a spurs lead to work with....imagine

I agree 100% :D

If it works, (and I think it would) it would leave the chemistry of the
the Hill/Manu/Jefferson 1st unit trio intact. It's plainly obvious this unit is light years better than the one featuring Bogans & Parker. Parker and Money Mase in the 2nd unit is a good scoring combo. Parker also has Bonner to kick out to. That's about the extent of Parker's playmaking abilities anyway, the drive and kick out. So his game fits the 2nd unit from a personnel standpoint. I think Parker and Duncan have a synergy together too but its not great enough to overcome the negatives. I think its far more likely Duncan will pick up his game w/out Parker than Jefferson picking up his game with him..

This might actually also work on another level. Parker might feel slighted and this might motivate him to bring his game to another level. If Parker can kick it up a notch and drive that 2nd unit they can compete against anyone.

[GhosTown]

Benching TP is crazy talk. This is exactly what happens when you become indoctrinated to Pop's dumb ass basketball coaching. Benching the best PG on the floor is crazy. Unless the Spurs are playing against the Jazz or Hornets, TP would be considered the best PG on the floor of any game he is in. So why would you cripple your offense by taking a guy who gets you lay ups and WIDE open jumpers off the floor? File the "Bench TP strategy" right up there with the "RJ is a great PF in small ball strategy", and "Bonner is a shutdown center strategy".

Pure crap.

[Brazil]

That's about the extent of Parker's playmaking abilities anyway, the drive and kick out.

This is why I never consider your takes seriously, you're just a fucking hater.

We have a thread with TP fan saying why not if it's for the team good and we have a thread with TP haters: "yeah put his ass in second unit, parker is poor Iverson kind of player who can do only drive and kick out without the shooting range".

For the recod as I already said I'd prefer see Manu + TP in the starting 5, Hill is capable to put 20 ppg in the second unit but I would be fine with Hill + Manu.

oh and :lol at TP+Mason is a good combo, Mason is finished. With TP back I expect 0 min for Mason, maximize the manu / hill / tp minutes.

[Flux451]

What would Parker do?

[Whisky Dog]

Do any of you really think "Hollywood" Parker would take a benching and be like Manu and still work to win any way possible? He'll come off the bench for maybe one game just to get some semblence of rhythm, then he'll be in the starting 5. Pop knows Hollywood won't come off the bench and give max effort, he'll pout and be disgruntled.

[Whisky Dog]

You can call me a hater, but after seeing all the bs with Parker and his NT bullshit he's going to have to win me back over. I had the same feelings towards Manu with his NT bs but he's been showing me something lately by carrying this team when I thougHt they were dead. If Parker shows the same and doesn't bring out his "entitlement" attitude that is sometimes present then I'll be a lot easier on the guy.

[TJastal]

This is why I never consider your takes seriously, you're just a fucking hater.

We have a thread with TP fan saying why not if it's for the team good and we have a thread with TP haters: "yeah put his ass in second unit, parker is poor Iverson kind of player who can do only drive and kick out without the shooting range".

For the recod as I already said I'd prefer see Manu + TP in the starting 5, Hill is capable to put 20 ppg in the second unit but I would be fine with Hill + Manu.

oh and :lol at TP+Mason is a good combo, Mason is finished. With TP back I expect 0 min for Mason, maximize the manu / hill / tp minutes.

First off, lemme say the Parker worshippers like you are way more annoying than the so called "haters".

It's been brought up many times that Parker is a drive and kick specialist. That's pretty much the extent of his playmaking skills. If you think that makes people "haters" to talk about it, then fine. Go ahead and keep pretending he's got mad playmaking skills while the rest of us discuss reality.

And are you really saying you'd prefer to see Manu and TP in the starting lineup (with Jefferson I'm assuming)? /facepalm

Manu + TP + Jefferson would not only cause the same problems as before (with Jefferson becoming a ghost on both ends of the floor) but we'd be wasting Manu's playmaking talents since the ball would be in Parker's hands most of the time. Kill two birds with one stone w/ that move. Both the 1st unit AND 2nd unit would then suck balls. Congrats. At least Parker's ego is appeased, eh?

I don't hate Parker, but his schtick of getting injured every other week combined with his poor performances this year and obvious limitations as a point guard simply can't be ignored. Jefferson has been shit on all year long by fans and he accepted his role as a backup man with a "Yes sir, right away sir attitude." If Parker can't do it, then I think he should get the same treatment.

[ohmwrecker]

I think he will come off the bench, at least at first, in limited minutes until he is back in shape. The Spurs are going to need him to play big right away though. There just isn't enough time to baby him.
Tony is not stupid. I'm sure he can see that the chemistry and momentum is high right now and I am sure he doesn't want to disturb that. I don't buy in to the belief that Tony is a selfish player. He plays to his strengths and he had a career year last year carrying this team on his back.
What I do worry about is Pop's inability to rotate players in certain matchups that give the Spurs a clear advantage. He has shown an unwilling stubborness to do this time and time again.
I don't worry about Manu, Tim and Tony. They are warriors and they will do what is best for the team and play to the maximum of their abilities.

[Brazil]

First off, lemme say the Parker worshippers like you are way more annoying than the so called "haters".

It's been brought up many times that Parker is a drive and kick specialist. That's pretty much the extent of his playmaking skills. If you think that makes people "haters" to talk about it, then fine. Go ahead and keep pretending he's got mad playmaking skills while the rest of us discuss reality.

And are you really saying you'd prefer to see Manu and TP in the starting lineup (with Jefferson I'm assuming)? /facepalm

Manu + TP + Jefferson would not only cause the same problems as before (with Jefferson becoming a ghost on both ends of the floor) but we'd be wasting Manu's playmaking talents since the ball would be in Parker's hands most of the time. Kill two birds with one stone w/ that move. Both the 1st unit AND 2nd unit would then suck balls. Congrats. At least Parker's ego is appeased, eh?

I don't hate Parker, but his schtick of getting injured every other week combined with his poor performances this year and obvious limitations as a point guard simply can't be ignored. Jefferson has been shit on all year long by fans and he accepted his role as a backup man with a "Yes sir, right away sir attitude." If Parker can't do it, then I think he should get the same treatment.

I am annoying you how ? because I'm a fan of parker / manu and tim ? I have no fucking problem to see parker in the second unit, how am I a homer ? please tell me. I participate in a civilized way on the trade parker thread.

On the other hand you are just passing your time finding a way to bash the guy. If you think parker play making ability is just drive and kick out I can't imagine what do you think about Hill.

:lol lol at your fucking birds argument, in this current team the only player with most PT spent with TP than Manu is Tim Duncan and guess what the spurs won 3 rings.... yeah tp and manu can't play together. Watch a game for a change.

For the last part, the tp's ego :bang give me one example of this fucking ego argument ? with the arrival of Jeff the player who reduced the most his touches is parker. Did you hear him complaining about that ? based on what you presume he won't accept a bench player role ?

[TJastal]

I think he will come off the bench, at least at first, in limited minutes until he is back in shape. The Spurs are going to need him to play big right away though. There just isn't enough time to baby him.
Tony is not stupid. I'm sure he can see that the chemistry and momentum is high right now and I am sure he doesn't want to disturb that. I don't buy in to the belief that Tony is a selfish player. He plays to his strengths and he had a career year last year carrying this team on his back.
What I do worry about is Pop's inability to rotate players in certain matchups that give the Spurs a clear advantage. He has shown an unwilling stubborness to do this time and time again.
I don't worry about Manu, Tim and Tony. They are warriors and they will do what is best for the team and play to the maximum of their abilities.

If the Parker as bench player/6th man works, then it should be left that way even after he works himself back into shape.

In essence, it would basically just be Tony and Manu trading places. Might take some time for him to get used to it but I defenitely feel it could be work.

[TJastal]

I am annoying you how ? because I'm a fan of parker / manu and tim ? I have no fucking problem to see parker in the second unit, how am I a homer ? please tell me. I participate in a civilized way on the trade parker thread.

On the other hand you are just passing your time finding a way to bash the guy. If you think parker play making ability is just drive and kick out I can't imagine what do you think about Hill.

:lol lol at your fucking birds argument, in this current team the only player with most PT spent with TP than Manu is Tim Duncan and guess what the spurs won 3 rings.... yeah tp and manu can't play together. Watch a game for a change.

For the last part, the tp's ego :bang give me one example of this fucking ego argument ? with the arrival of Jeff the player who reduced the most his touches is parker. Did you hear him complaining about that ? based on what you presume he won't accept a bench player role ?

You call it bashing. I call it living in reality :P I'm looking for ways we can be a more effective team WITH him when he comes back. Would a pure basher still think he can still be an integral piece of the puzzle hmm?

Just because the big 3 won championships in the past doesn't really mean squat at the present time. That was then, this is now. We didn't have Jefferson and George Hill as pieces to work with and fit in back then.

So you agree that Parker should be a 6th man, and won't blink an eye if Pop actually uses him in that role. We'll see about that. I hope you're right.

I won't deny I like Hill in the starting lineup more than Parker. He's not a playmaker either but he spreads the floor better and moves the ball around to find open shooters. When Parker is on the court, ball movement slows down, there is more 1 vs 1 and most of the offense runs through him and Duncan exclusively. This freezes Jefferson out of the offense. You'll probably call me a TD basher too but less touches and 4 down for Duncan might be a good thing. He hasn't been as effective in the low block as he used to be.

I prefer Hill in the starting unit w/ Jefferson for these reasons. The improved defense doesn't hurt either. But its Manu's playmaking skills that is making the whole thing work. The synergy between Hill, Manu, and Jefferson is undeniable.

[venitian navigator]

I still think that at the end Pop choice will consider the first round match ups...
However, I understand the fact that the trio of Hill - Manu - RJ has developed a good chemistry...
That's a good point and we have to consider Parker had a very particular season, losing a lot of games also before the hand injury and not playing at his level 'cause he was evidently tired.
But at this point, going on reasoning in this way, we should also consider that the best combo, in the last seasons, for our team, has been Duncan - Parker...
So, if the choice is the one of make Parker start from the bench, why not do the same with Tim ?
If it's true that Spurs players feel that the most important thing is not egos, but win, and if they and Pop think (or realize) that the best chance to win is to put together on court the players that work together at best, we could have a starting five of :

Hill - Manu - RJ - Blair - Dice

Then, at the some time, 6/7th man : Parker / Duncan
Then : Bogans (Hairston/Mason) - Bonner

Obviously, in the "winning minutes" in the fourth quarter : Parker - Manu - Tim and whoever else in necessary to complement our big three depending the team and players we face...

[DesignatedT]

I dont think parker should come off the bench. Putting Manu back on the bench should be a smooth transition since hes so familiar with coming off the bench in his career.

The more interesting question is who is going to be closing games.... Tony? Hill? RJ? we know Duncan and Manu are. RJ at the 4 again?

[DesignatedT]

I still think that at the end Pop choice will consider the first round match ups...
However, I understand the fact that the trio of Hill - Manu - RJ has developed a good chemistry...
That's a good point and we have to consider Parker had a very particular season, losing a lot of games also before the hand injury and not playing at his level 'cause he was evidently tired.
But at this point, going on reasoning in this way, we should also consider that the best combo, in the last seasons, for our team, has been Duncan - Parker...
So, if the choice is the one of make Parker start from the bench, why not do the same with Tim ?
If it's true that Spurs players feel that the most important thing is not egos, but win, and if they and Pop think (or realize) that the best chance to win is to put together on court the players that work together at best, we could have a starting five of :

Hill - Manu - RJ - Blair - Dice

Then, at the some time, 6/7th man : Parker / Duncan
Then : Bogans (Hairston/Mason) - Bonner

Obviously, in the "winning minutes" in the fourth quarter : Parker - Manu - Tim and whoever else in necessary to complement our big three depending the team and players we face...

parker and duncan off the bench? :lol

[nkdlunch]

agree 100%

why fuckup the existing chemistry.


Good thread

[barbacoataco]

The Spurs won't have long to figure this out. I think in the playoffs they need to play - Duncan, McDyess, RJeff, Ginobili, Parker and Hill as much as possible. Then Bonner, Blair and either Mason/Bogans just enough to give them a little rest. With no b2b's the best players can play more minutes.

The thing to look at is who plays well together. RJ plays better with Ginobili. Parker plays well with Ginobili. Hill and Parker together not as good. Hill with Jefferson are starting to gel. I hope Pop will put it together.

[DesignatedT]

The Spurs won't have long to figure this out. I think in the playoffs they need to play - Duncan, McDyess, RJeff, Ginobili, Parker and Hill as much as possible. Then Bonner, Blair and either Mason/Bogans just enough to give them a little rest. With no b2b's the best players can play more minutes.

The thing to look at is who plays well together. RJ plays better with Ginobili. Parker plays well with Ginobili. Hill and Parker together not as good. Hill with Jefferson are starting to gel. I hope Pop will put it together.

Duncan needs to play with Tony.

[TJastal]

I dont think parker should come off the bench. Putting Manu back on the bench should be a smooth transition since hes so familiar with coming off the bench in his career.

The more interesting question is who is going to be closing games.... Tony? Hill? RJ? we know Duncan and Manu are. RJ at the 4 again?

So what do you propose be done about Jefferson? Is he going back to the
2nd unit w/ Manu like it was before Parker went out or are you just going to ignore the fact that he played like a pile of shit half the year in the starting lineup w/ TP?

You do remember that Jefferson's resurgence coincided with playing in tandem with Manu in the 2nd unit right?

[JR3]

Imho it all depends by the teams we're gonna face in the play offs...'cause, for example, the best matchup for us for Parker, if we play the Lakers, is against Fisher (Parker too young and quick for him... and that is our best weapon against L.A.)

I agree but i dont think its that much of a difference. Hill blows by fisher just like parker would.

[DesignatedT]

So what do you propose be done about Jefferson? Is he going back to the
2nd unit w/ Manu like it was before Parker went out or are you just going to ignore the fact that he played like a pile of shit half the year in the starting lineup w/ TP?

You do remember that Jefferson's resurgence coincided with playing in tandem with Manu in the 2nd unit right?

No i keep him in the SL. He is going to HAVE to play with Parker.. It's Inevitable... It's going to fucking happen... especially if we want any sort of chance to win the championship... If you ask me you start them together 3 or 4 games before the playoffs so they can try to establish some more chemistry together...

Manu will be out their most the time in the playoffs either.. I would consider letting Hill come off the 2nd unit before Tony....

And people tend to forget about Tim Duncan in this argument... sure he doesnt look the same and he is a little tired but its no coincidence that his numbers have been down since Tony has been out either.... Tony helps Duncans game also.

[TJastal]

Duncan needs to play with Tony.

:rolleyes

Start thinking outside the box, dude. The spurs have relied far too long on that duo. It's not effective enough to carry a team to a championship anymore. Duncan due to age and Parker from fatigue and injury. It's over,
get over it already. Duncan cannot hardly score in the post anymore. It's time that Manu, Hill, and Jefferson start taking the reigns of the team or we're going to be predictable and easy to beat come playoff time.

[DesignatedT]

:rolleyes

Start thinking outside the box, dude. The spurs have relied far too long on that duo. It's not effective enough to carry a team to a championship anymore. Duncan due to age and Parker from fatigue and injury. It's over,
get over it already. Duncan cannot hardly score in the post anymore. It's time that Manu, Hill, and Jefferson start taking the reigns of the team or we're going to be predictable and easy to beat come playoff time.

Lol you want to rely on jefferson taking the reigns from duncan. please..

me saying duncan should play with parker is the same thing as you saying jefferson should play with manu....

[TJastal]

No i keep him in the SL. He is going to HAVE to play with Parker.. It's Inevitable... It's going to fucking happen... especially if we want any sort of chance to win the championship... If you ask me you start them together 3 or 4 games before the playoffs so they can try to establish some more chemistry together...

Manu will be out their most the time in the playoffs either.. I would consider letting Hill come off the 2nd unit before Tony....

And people tend to forget about Tim Duncan in this argument... sure he doesnt look the same and he is a little tired but its no coincidence that his numbers have been down since Tony has been out either.... Tony helps Duncans game also.

Dude, its not going to happen. They had 3/4 of a year to get it together, and it didn't work. Its not going to magically happen in the last fucking week of the season.

Duncan's game is on the decline, and IMO it has little to do with Parker being in the lineup or not. He would still be missing his bank shots and assorted jumphooks and fadeaways whether Parker was the guy standing on the perimeter throwing him the ball or anyone else on the team.

[DesignatedT]

Why not move Hill to the bench.... He's shown he can lead a 2nd unit and hes grown a lot. That way he still gets his shots and hes still the man out their when hes on the court instead of having to adjust to taking a backseat out their on the court. I dunno

Start
Tony
Manu
RJ
Duncan
Dice

[TJastal]

Lol you want to rely on jefferson taking the reigns from duncan. please..

me saying duncan should play with parker is the same thing as you saying jefferson should play with manu....

No.

Jefferson is 10X more dependant on Manu than Duncan is dependant on Parker.

[DesignatedT]

Dude, its not going to happen. They had 3/4 of a year to get it together, and it didn't work. Its not going to magically happen in the last fucking week of the season.

Duncan's game is on the decline, and IMO it has little to do with Parker being in the lineup or not. He would still be missing his bank shots and assorted jumphooks and fadeaways whether Parker was the guy standing on the perimeter throwing him the ball or anyone else on the team.

Duncan plays better with parker just like RJ plays better with manu... whats so hard for you to understand there???

And the spurs had a lot more problems earlier in the year than just parker and RJ not gelling...

[DesignatedT]

It seems you have forgotten who tony parker is... and a lot on this board have. RJ better learn to play with him because were going nowhere if he doesnt.

[TJastal]

Why not move Hill to the bench.... He's shown he can lead a 2nd unit and hes grown a lot. That way he still gets his shots and hes still the man out their when hes on the court instead of having to adjust to taking a backseat out their on the court. I dunno

Start
Tony
Manu
RJ
Duncan
Dice

This is the same proposal Brazil made in a different thread. This is just a really bad idea on so many levels.

For starters, in that lineup Parker & Duncan dominate the offense, RJ becomes a ghost and Manu's talent goes to complete waste. You put all the pressure on George Hill to carry the 2nd unit and burn him out quickly.

[DesignatedT]

This is the same proposal Brazil made in a different thread. This is just a really bad idea on so many levels.

For starters, in that lineup Parker & Duncan dominate the offense, RJ becomes a ghost and Manu's talent goes to complete waste. You put all the pressure on George Hill to carry the 2nd unit and burn him out quickly.

Once the playoffs start the 2nd unit is no longer going to be 5 new players. Hill, Parker,Manu,RJ should all be playing 35-40 minutes a game which means some will be playing straight through the first quarter and into the 2nd.

It's not like Hill is going to be out their with

Bogans
Mason
Blair
Bonner

Of course you dont do that. but i dont expect that to be the case. I could see RJ play the first and start the 2nd or even tony to stay in their with hill with the 2nd unit.

the rotations will be different. we should always have 2 out of tony,manu,hill,rj on the court at all times. plus however he plays duncan.

[Mel_13]

Once the playoffs start the 2nd unit is no longer going to be 5 new players. Hill, Parker,Manu,RJ should all be playing 35-40 minutes a game which means some will be playing straight through the first quarter and into the 2nd.

It's not like Hill is going to be out their with

Bogans
Mason
Blair
Bonner

Of course you dont do that. but i dont expect that to be the case. I could see RJ play the first and start the 2nd or even tony to stay in their with hill with the 2nd unit.

the rotations will be different. we should always have 2 out of tony,manu,hill,rj on the court at all times. plus however he plays duncan.

Pretty much.

There are 144 minutes at the three perimeter positions. Starting with a nominal 36mpg for each of the four players you get something like:

1: Parker 36, Hill 12
2: Manu 24, Hill 24
3: RJ 36, Manu 12

Mason, Bogans, and Hairston are used situationally or in garbage time.

Tony and RJ will spend substantial time together. It's simply inevitable if you want to to maximize the minutes of your best players.

[TJastal]

Once the playoffs start the 2nd unit is no longer going to be 5 new players. Hill, Parker,Manu,RJ should all be playing 35-40 minutes a game which means some will be playing straight through the first quarter and into the 2nd.

It's not like Hill is going to be out their with

Bogans
Mason
Blair
Bonner

Of course you dont do that. but i dont expect that to be the case. I could see RJ play the first and start the 2nd or even tony to stay in their with hill with the 2nd unit.

the rotations will be different. we should always have 2 out of tony,manu,hill,rj on the court at all times. plus however he plays duncan.

You really can't see that lineup is just going end up with predictable Parker/Duncan 4 down/pick and roll offense that hasn't been effective for what, going on three years now? Combine that with the fact that Manu's involvement with the offense will be more limited, which will have a negative effect on RJ and he'll go back to sucking.

And your solution is just to play the starters all 48 minutes and everything will be ok. :lol

If anything, bench player minutes for Mason and Bogans will increase more than the starters once Hairston and Temple are not in the rotation. We might see Hairston once every couple games or so but that's it.

[lefty]

TP as a 7th man makes sense

[dbestpro]

The choice really comes down to bringing TP off the bench or bringing Manu and RJ off the bench. RJ has played really well with Manu in the starting line up. There is no way Pop will start both Manu and TP because he needs that boost on the bench. I prefer TP come off the bench as Manu seems to really be in sync with this starting group. Also, I don't want to mess with what is working right now with RJ.

I think an interesting question is "Will the back court rotation during the playoffs be limited to 3 guards? 96 minutes = 32 minutes each for Hill, Manu and Parker.

We could see all three on the court, where they might average 35 minutes each. If that is the case and RJ sees 35 minutes that would leave just 9 minutes for the backup small forward (Bogans maybe).

The front court will still see the minutes divided between TD, Dice, Blair and Bonner.

So, my bet is Pop goes with a 9 man rotation for the playoffs.

[jjktkk]

If you remember, before Parker went down with the hand injury, Pop was starting him and Hill in the same back court, with good results. My starting linup would be:

1. Parker
2. Hill
3. Bogans
4. Duncan
5. McDyess

This way, you bring Ginoboli and Jefferson, who play really well together off the bench. Blair seems to play alot better with Manu as well. With Manu in his 6th man role, it really makes the Spurs bench more explosive, scoring/playmaking wise.

[TJastal]

If you remember, before Parker went down with the hand injury, Pop was starting him and Hill in the same back court, with good results. My starting linup would be:

1. Parker
2. Hill
3. Bogans
4. Duncan
5. McDyess

This way, you bring Ginoboli and Jefferson, who play really well together off the bench. Blair seems to play alot better with Manu as well. With Manu in his 6th man role, it really makes the Spurs bench more explosive, scoring/playmaking wise.

Say goodbye to the Manu/Hill/Jefferson synergy and also getting early leads, but if Parker can't/won't take a bench role this is the 2nd best option the team has, esp if they face the lakers in the
1st round, Bogans is a physical enough player to mix it up with Artest.

[beachwood]

Agree. I think it's best to have Parker adjust to the team and let him work his way back into game shape. Putting Parker into the starting lineup has the potential to mess up the chemistry that has been built by Manu kicking ass.

[the crimson blur]

It all depends on how healthy Tony is. At the moment though, I'd think it'd be criminal to have him start immediately.

I see Pop's playoff rotation like this, for now:

Hill (35 mpg)-Parker (15-35 mpg, depends on health)
Manu (35 mpg)
Jefferson (30-35 mpg)-Bogans (5-10 mpg)
Dice (20-25 mpg)-Bonner (20-25 mpg)-Blair (10-15 mpg)
Duncan (35-40 mpg)

[jdev82]

GHill is more than capable of destroying Fisher. Coming back, Parker is the one that will have to adjust with the starters playing well.

:lol

like him or not, tony parker is one of the best offensive point guards in the league. george hill is a second year player who is just now finding his role on the court. i think ill trust tony parker with the destroying fisher duties for now

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

it's like people forget this is the guy that, when healthy, was a Finals MVP. and he's still capable of that.

i also think he's smart enough and capable of being that same scoring threat if he's asked to, or when the offense needs it, but also not disrupting the chemistry that's going on right now b/w with Manu and RJ specifcally. i think he's capable enough, IOW, of doing exactly what George Hill is doing right now offensively, but better. he just has to be healthy and like he was a year ago. it's unfortunate that Parker isn't a 3-point threat, which helps spacing, but i think he can mold his game to fit RJ's and get a chemistry b/w himself, Man, and RJ.

i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt; and i'm going to blame the fact that it didn't happen before on him being injured. i hope i'm right.

The difference is that when he's playing, Parker has the ball in his hands a lot.

The starting offense is clicking right now because the ball is in Manu's hands.

I'm all for Parker coming off the bench as it would clearly benefit Manu and RJ the best (and obviously Hill can keep doing his thing). Unfortunately, Pop is a stubborn SOB so when he's healthy Tony will start for us again and RJ will go back to overpaid scrub with Tony's lack of court vision out there with the ball in his hands the majority of the time.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If you remember, before Parker went down with the hand injury, Pop was starting him and Hill in the same back court, with good results. My starting linup would be:

1. Parker
2. Hill
3. Bogans
4. Duncan
5. McDyess

This way, you bring Ginoboli and Jefferson, who play really well together off the bench. Blair seems to play alot better with Manu as well. With Manu in his 6th man role, it really makes the Spurs bench more explosive, scoring/playmaking wise.

And that way, you ensure teams have two guys in the starting lineup they can double off of (Dice and Bogans). :tu Good way to get your ass handed to you in a playoff series.

[benefactor]

The biggest issue surrounding Parker and the injury is his jumper. It's been little bit up and down this season already, so it's a huge question mark as far as how effective he will be when he returns. As I said in the other thread, teams are one defensive adjustment away from forcing Parker to stand out here and clang jumpers or making him dribble out the shot clock looking for a crease to the basket that's not there.

The next few games should solidify some Parker off the bench arguments if the Spurs continue to play well. The current group is 8-3 together since Parker went down...and if I had to pick a target game for Parker to return it would be next Friday against Memphis. If they go 2-2 and or 3-1 in the 4 games preceding that it's going to be hard for me to support breaking up this starting group...even if it keeps Manu and RJ together by sending them both to the bench.

All in all, I'm pretty worried. I have a gut feeling that Parker will come off the bench for the last few games then will be trotted out in the starting lineup alongside Hill, RJ, McDyess and Duncan when the first round starts. That just has disaster written all over it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Pop did it as soon as Parker was ready to play. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I dont think parker should come off the bench. Putting Manu back on the bench should be a smooth transition since hes so familiar with coming off the bench in his career.

The more interesting question is who is going to be closing games.... Tony? Hill? RJ? we know Duncan and Manu are. RJ at the 4 again?

You're missing the entire point, which is that the Manu-Hill-Jefferson combo has got our offense humming, and defense has picked up too.

It's not about where Manu is comfortable or familiar playing from. It's the difference in Jefferson being a 15 and 6 guy (which he has been since Manu got plugged into the starting lineup) and being a 10 and 4 guy (which is what he was when he was largely frozen out of the offense playing with Tony).

If Tony is so good, he should be able to produce coming off the bench. He loves drive and kick so you can stick him out there with Bonner and Blair no problem.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Duncan needs to play with Tony.

Yeah, because only Tony can pass him the ball in the low block :rolleyes

Again, this is about who starts the game. I think we can all agree Tony and Tim would be part of our lineup to close out close games.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

No i keep him in the SL. He is going to HAVE to play with Parker.. It's Inevitable... It's going to fucking happen... especially if we want any sort of chance to win the championship... If you ask me you start them together 3 or 4 games before the playoffs so they can try to establish some more chemistry together...


That's so retarded and hard headed of a viewpoint. Hey Coach Pop, welcome to Spurstalk!

They've had all year to establish chemistry, it ain't happening. Tony doesn't have the court vision for it.

[Whisky Dog]

How about playing Parker with Ian, Bonner, Hairston, and Temple. So that way he can just do fucking everything by himself.

[dbestpro]

How about playing Parker with Ian, Bonner, Hairston, and Temple. So that way he can just do fucking everything by himself.

Finally! A line up that will work with Parker!

[TJastal]

lol harsh

[kaji157]

Please, come some sense, Parker is good to start against some matchups and only if he really is 100%.
My points on tony coming off the bench.

Our starting lineup as it is in way more efficient than anyone with Parker on in.

We are not sure about Parker´s health either, he might come back but we have no guarantee his legs will be fine for a long time, to disrupt the chemistry at unsure that he may not be 100% recovered is a huge risk.

Hill fans, take your fan glasses on, Parker is a better playmaker than Hill, limited as he is, he recognizes matchups a lot more better than Hill. I think Parker will be more effective running the second unit, actually he run it at the begining of the year a lot.

3pt specialist, bringing Parker off the bench will have him play around 3 3pt shooters. If you insert him with Manu, then the only 3pt threat on the starting unit willl be Manu. Nonsense there.

Benching Manu, for me, after watching the past games, is not an option. First some mythbusting, HE DOESN´T PLAY BETTER OFF THE BENCH. He averages less points, FG%, Assists... everything. Spurs cannot afford to let Manu play worse than he is. Plus that would mean benchin RJ too, which will leave the centerpiece or Mason as starters along with TP and Hill... really not much sense on havin Manu and RJ to get in the game with the other team ahead by 10 as we used to do .

Hill durability, point to him being the one that can play in both units and that can help Tony carry that second unit, i would start him most of the times given that he will likely play 40 mins.

Planctar Facilitis or whatever is called. As we all learned from TD, the only cure for it is rest. I prefer Tony playing 20-25 effective minutes off the bench, than have him play 30-35 as a starter and loose him after a couple of games.

[TJastal]

Please, come some sense, Parker is good to start against some matchups and only if he really is 100%.
My points on tony coming off the bench.

Our starting lineup as it is in way more efficient than anyone with Parker on in.

We are not sure about Parker´s health either, he might come back but we have no guarantee his legs will be fine for a long time, to disrupt the chemistry at unsure that he may not be 100% recovered is a huge risk.

Hill fans, take your fan glasses on, Parker is a better playmaker than Hill, limited as he is, he recognizes matchups a lot more better than Hill. I think Parker will be more effective running the second unit, actually he run it at the begining of the year a lot.

3pt specialist, bringing Parker off the bench will have him play around 3 3pt shooters. If you insert him with Manu, then the only 3pt threat on the starting unit willl be Manu. Nonsense there.

Benching Manu, for me, after watching the past games, is not an option. First some mythbusting, HE DOESN´T PLAY BETTER OFF THE BENCH. He averages less points, FG%, Assists... everything. Spurs cannot afford to let Manu play worse than he is. Plus that would mean benchin RJ too, which will leave the centerpiece or Mason as starters along with TP and Hill... really not much sense on havin Manu and RJ to get in the game with the other team ahead by 10 as we used to do .

Hill durability, point to him being the one that can play in both units and that can help Tony carry that second unit, i would start him most of the times given that he will likely play 40 mins.

Planctar Facilitis or whatever is called. As we all learned from TD, the only cure for it is rest. I prefer Tony playing 20-25 effective minutes off the bench, than have him play 30-35 as a starter and loose him after a couple of games.

:tu

Parker leading the 2nd unit is really the best solution, its just the idea seems so odd after being a starter for so long that people can't seem to grasp onto it.

It's the Popped mindset at work, it was the same reason he kept Finley in the rotation even when it was clear the guy had become a dog turd. If it worked before then by golly it will work again gotta just keep hammering away..

[Brazil]

You call it bashing. I call it living in reality :P I'm looking for ways we can be a more effective team WITH him when he comes back. Would a pure basher still think he can still be an integral piece of the puzzle hmm?

Well actually it is a good question, tell me. You have no respect at all for the guy, I'm sure you were in the group defending the trade parker for biedrins.


Just because the big 3 won championships in the past doesn't really mean squat at the present time. That was then, this is now. We didn't have Jefferson and George Hill as pieces to work with and fit in back then.

Your point was TP and Manu can't play together because we waste Manu talent doing that, why bringing Jeff and Hill on the conversation. Your TP/Manu argument failed you don't win a ring with two guys who don't fit with each other playing them together 30 mn a game.


So you agree that Parker should be a 6th man, and won't blink an eye if Pop actually uses him in that role. We'll see about that. I hope you're right.

Yes I have no problem with that even if I think we should play Manu and TP the most we can.


I won't deny I like Hill in the starting lineup more than Parker. He's not a playmaker either but he spreads the floor better and moves the ball around to find open shooters. When Parker is on the court, ball movement slows down, there is more 1 vs 1 and most of the offense runs through him and Duncan exclusively. This freezes Jefferson out of the offense. You'll probably call me a TD basher too but less touches and 4 down for Duncan might be a good thing. He hasn't been as effective in the low block as he used to be.

When TP was on the floor before his injury the spurs were just fine playing well. Jeff was passive because he was passive, he played well with TP and like shit without him.


I prefer Hill in the starting unit w/ Jefferson for these reasons. The improved defense doesn't hurt either. But its Manu's playmaking skills that is making the whole thing work. The synergy between Hill, Manu, and Jefferson is undeniable.

Regarding the Defense Hill stepped up the last 3 games, before that he was just awful. Parker has always defended well in the PO.

[kaji157]

:tu

Parker leading the 2nd unit is really the best solution, its just the idea seems so odd after being a starter for so long that people can't seem to grasp onto it.

It's the Popped mindset at work, it was the same reason he kept Finley in the rotation even when it was clear the guy had become a dog turd. If it worked before then by golly it will work again gotta just keep hammering away..

I too think pop is stubborn, but i also think he is not in terms of bringing players off the bench.
Manu came off the bench.
Finley came off the bench.
Mason came off the bench.
Jefferson came off the bench.
McDyess came off the bench.
Even Duncan came off the bench a few times.
I think Tony is aware that the best chance the team has is for him to be something they actually don´t have, and that is a secod unit leader.

I think for the first time in few year, we won´t have a go-to closer unit. As the games will be finished on 5 of Hill-Parker-Manu-Jefferson-McDyess-Bonner-Blair-Mason, depending on how they are playing, shooting, and if we are ahead or behind.

[Galileo]

The Spurs have too many good players to start them all.

That's good.

You'd think it was a bad thing from reading this forum.

Starts this season:

Duncan 70
Jefferson 62
Parker 50
Bogans 49
Dice 43
Hill 39
Blair 22
Manu 15
Bonner 7
Mason 4

These a re the player sin the playoff rotation. I say that CIA Pop is smart enought to figure out who to start and how much to play each player.

Mason should get the least minutes. He can come off the bench for 5 minutes and hit a three. He can dribble well enough to play point guard in a pinch, but we don't need that as we have Parker and Hill.

Duncan is the best player. He needs to play about 40 minutes a game.

Blair, Dice, and Bonner can all split time as the other big men, like this:

Duncan 39
Dice 29
Blair 19
Bonner 9

So that leaves 139 minutes for the other players.

Parker 30
Hill 30
Jefferson 35
Bogans 9
Manu 35

[sonic21]

The playoffs and the regular season are not the same. I'm all for Tony as the 6th man(it's the better solution) but we don't know how Hill and RJ will play in the PO.

[jjktkk]

And that way, you ensure teams have two guys in the starting lineup they can double off of (Dice and Bogans). :tu Good way to get your ass handed to you in a playoff series.

No, with my lineup, you only have guy, Bogans, who is a liability offensively. McDyess, although inconsistant, still has the ability to score and defend. So Aggie(:lol), I can't believe I'm asking this, what starting lineup would you like to see?

[dbestpro]

9 man rotation. No RMJ.

Back court rotates with SF for a total of 144 minutes.

Manu 35
Parker 35
Hill 35
RJ 35
Bogans 4

Front court is who ever is hot plus Duncan at 35 minutes.

[DesignatedT]

You really can't see that lineup is just going end up with predictable Parker/Duncan 4 down/pick and roll offense that hasn't been effective for what, going on three years now? Combine that with the fact that Manu's involvement with the offense will be more limited, which will have a negative effect on RJ and he'll go back to sucking.

And your solution is just to play the starters all 48 minutes and everything will be ok. :lol

If anything, bench player minutes for Mason and Bogans will increase more than the starters once Hairston and Temple are not in the rotation. We might see Hairston once every couple games or so but that's it.

WTF please tell me where I said I want to play the starters all game? Is that what you do? Make up shit other people said to help your argument?

I said our 4 main guys at the front court positions will all see an increase in playing time 35-40 minutes... If you didn't know there is 48 minutes in a basketball game.

What that does is pretty much eliminates a "2nd unit".. In other words we should never have 4 or 5 players on the court that are non-starters. We should always have 2-3 starters on the court at all times which eliminates anybody (hill,manu,tony) whoever it Is carry to much of a load coming off the bench.

If you start Tony and put Manu on the bench we know it will be a smooth transition because Manu is very familiar with coming off the bench, there would
be no transition period. You can't say the same for Tony who has never came off the bench in his career.

As for RJ and Tony not clicking earlier in the year there were many other problems this team had then just them to not gelling which could have prevented the process. With or without Tony/Manu, RJ is not the same player he was in the beginning of this year... It's hard to judge. IMO I feel that Tony and RJ could stickl click together just fine.

[jjktkk]

WTF please tell me where I said I want to play the starters all game? Is that what you do? Make up shit other people said to help your argument?

I said our 4 main guys at the front court positions will all see an increase in playing time 35-40 minutes... If you didn't know there is 48 minutes in a basketball game.

What that does is pretty much eliminates a "2nd unit".. In other words we should never have 4 or 5 players on the court that are non-starters. We should always have 2-3 starters on the court at all times which eliminates anybody (hill,manu,tony) whoever it Is carry to much of a load coming off the bench.

If you start Tony and put Manu on the bench we know it will be a smooth transition because Manu is very familiar with coming off the bench, there would
be no transition period. You can't say the same for Tony who has never came off the bench in his career.

As for RJ and Tony not clicking earlier in the year there were many other problems this team had then just them to not gelling which could have prevented the process. With or without Tony/Manu, RJ is not the same player he was in the beginning of this year... It's hard to judge. IMO I feel that Tony and RJ could stickl click together just fine.

Parker might come off the bench at first, just to shake the rust off. But I agree that Ginoboli would be a better option back in his 6th man role, just for the fact that he has the expierence in that role, as opposed to Parker.

[DesignatedT]

That's so retarded and hard headed of a viewpoint. Hey Coach Pop, welcome to Spurstalk!

They've had all year to establish chemistry, it ain't happening. Tony doesn't have the court vision for it.

How is This hard-headed and retarded? I'm simply saying if Tony and RJ don't find a way to play effectively together than were not going to win the championship anyway. Do you disagree with this. Start who you want but you bet those 2 will be out there together when every game is on the line.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The playoffs and the regular season are not the same. I'm all for Tony as the 6th man(it's the better solution) but we don't know how Hill and RJ will play in the PO.

I'd say anyone who paid attention in the Dallas series last year knows how Hill will play in the post-season (hint: it was the best on the squad outside of anyone not named Manu or Bowen).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

No, with my lineup, you only have guy, Bogans, who is a liability offensively. McDyess, although inconsistant, still has the ability to score and defend. So Aggie(:lol), I can't believe I'm asking this, what starting lineup would you like to see?

Did you watch the game last night? You've got your answer.

If we trot out Bogans and Dice, do you think the two of them shooting a combined 25-30 shots a night can win us a playoff series? Because that is what guys like Jackson will challenge them to do.

[jjktkk]

Did you watch the game last night? You've got your answer.

If we trot out Bogans and Dice, do you think the two of them shooting a combined 25-30 shots a night can win us a playoff series? Because that is what guys like Jackson will challenge them to do.

Do you honestly believe, come playoff time, that Bogans and McDyess will get that many touches?

[DesignatedT]

Do you honestly believe, come playoff time, that Bogans and McDyess will get that many touches?

Lol. Exactly.

[vander]

It should be obvious to anyone at this point that Parker needs to be instant scoring off the bench, the chemistry with Hill/Manu/RJ/etc. out there as starters should not be messed with

[gm5k]

LOL like Parker would accept that role. You can usually tell how much it pains him to cheer on his teammates when Pop doesn't have him in at crunch time. dude isn't exactly Manu as far as it being "all about the team"

DGMW Parker's great, but he wouldn't have this. at least not without some serious pouting and uninspired play

[sonic21]

LOL like Parker would accept that role. You can usually tell how much it pains him to cheer on his teammates when Pop doesn't have him in at crunch time. dude isn't exactly Manu as far as it being "all about the team"

DGMW Parker's great, but he wouldn't have this. at least not without some serious pouting and uninspired play

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/47/itstimetostoppostingCat.jpg

[gm5k]

:lol just my opinion I think he wouldn't like his role...

I did exaggerate my point a bit. he'd probably get used to it. at any rate I don't see it happening.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do you honestly believe, come playoff time, that Bogans and McDyess will get that many touches?

So, did you pay attention the last time we faced LA? Or Dallas last year? Go back to any of our playoff series and you can see good coaches make the role players beat them.

Last year against Dallas Carlisle forced guys like Finley, Mason, Bonner, and Gooden to take upwards of 30-35 of our shots each game they won.

Phil used to do it to, he'd pack the lane to marginalize Parker's driving and Tim's post-up game, and force us to beat them outside with our perimeter shooters, and we couldn't do it.

You can put your head in a hole in the ground and be stupid about this, but the reality is you can expect the same type of Ds this year, and you can bet your ass if you trot out Bogans and Dice in the starting five against any of the top 4 teams in the West, they will double the hell out of Tim, pack the lane, and say 'fine, let's see if Dice and Bogans can beat us from outside.'

Like I said, are you willing to gamble the Spurs season on those two holding up shooting under playoff pressure? Because that's the bet opposing coaches are going to take with a lineup like that.

[WalterBenitez]

This is the same proposal Brazil made in a different thread. This is just a really bad idea on so many levels.

For starters, in that lineup Parker & Duncan dominate the offense, RJ becomes a ghost and Manu's talent goes to complete waste. You put all the pressure on George Hill to carry the 2nd unit and burn him out quickly.

+1 ...... :toast

[Johnny RIngo]

So, did you pay attention the last time we faced LA? Or Dallas last year? Go back to any of our playoff series and you can see good coaches make the role players beat them.

Last year against Dallas Carlisle forced guys like Finley, Mason, Bonner, and Gooden to take upwards of 30-35 of our shots each game they won.

Phil used to do it to, he'd pack the lane to marginalize Parker's driving and Tim's post-up game, and force us to beat them outside with our perimeter shooters, and we couldn't do it.

You can put your head in a hole in the ground and be stupid about this, but the reality is you can expect the same type of Ds this year, and you can bet your ass if you trot out Bogans and Dice in the starting five against any of the top 4 teams in the West, they will double the hell out of Tim, pack the lane, and say 'fine, let's see if Dice and Bogans can beat us from outside.'

Like I said, are you willing to gamble the Spurs season on those two holding up shooting under playoff pressure? Because that's the bet opposing coaches are going to take with a lineup like that.

Says it all really. Spurs have some terribly unclutch role players this year that are going to choke HARD against LA. Not really looking forward to watching Bonner/Mason/Udoka brick every one of their wide-open threes.

[HarlemHeat37]

-I don't care if TP starts or not..I'll be fine either way..I'd prefer he starts, but I understand the chemistry argument..

-There's absolutely no way Manu shouldn't start..no way..he's hot as fuck, and the fact that he's shooting lights out from the perimeter will help the spacing in the starting lineup, which has been a problem and something people didn't mention too much earlier in the season..

-Bogans shouldn't start, it shouldn't even be considered..see Aggie's post..if he plays more than 10 MPG in the playoffs, the Spurs are in even more trouble..

-There are people in this thread that are going to be heartbroken since they expect Richard Jefferson to "take the reigns" on this team in the playoffs..the Spurs shouldn't set their plans based on Richard Jefferson..

-Jefferson's usage % hasn't been much different since Tony went out of the lineup IIRC..sure, he's played better since TP left, but I think it's more of a coincidence than anything..I could be wrong though, I'm gonna be doing some research when I can to see if there's a link..Jefferson isn't getting many more possessions without Parker..he's clearly been more aggressive since his hot streak started, I don't think it has much to do with TP..

Jefferson just has to actually attack when he has the ball when TP is in the lineup..when has Parker ever complained about anything like this?..I'm sure he would like having a teammate to help, especially when he's the one that said the Spurs need better players following the loss to the Mavs, IIRC..

Either way, if Jefferson needs Manu to score, then we're screwed either way..that shit doesn't work in the playoffs, teams scout and analyze specific teams a lot more..Jefferson is gonna need to score on his own at times, it doesn't matter who he's playing with..

[tothrowed]

man fuck it give us the lakers in the first round we got em

[The Truth #6]

Lots of ways to look at this. Tony and Manu give the team two slightly different identities in my opinion. The team has never had an identity all season that worked until Manu picked up his play, which seems to have an effect on RJ. Some may debate it, but RJ really seems to think its the case and his overall effort level has been better without a doubt (though not saying he's a good defensive player yet.) Whether or not this was because TP was out of the equation is debatable, but I think it was a factor.

No way Manu should be put to the bench. He's a team player but I'm sure he's tired of always being the one that gets moved around to accomodate other players. If anything other players should experiment accomodating him.

Also, Manu needs to be resigned. I think he wants to stay a Spur, but no reason to ruffle his feathers by putting him in the second unit right when he's playing his best ball in over a year.

Also, who really knows what Tony Parker we are getting back from injury? Is he 100% and ready to go? Is he still going to be playing beneath his usual level of play as he did this year? If Tony is back to an All Star level then hopefully many of the problems we had this year will be much less because when Parker fully dominates it does open up opportunities for other players. When he struggles but doesn't adapt, then we have problems.

My feeling is that Pop will have to be the diplomat and start everybody and see what happens.

[TD 21]

-I don't care if TP starts or not..I'll be fine either way..I'd prefer he starts, but I understand the chemistry argument..

-There's absolutely no way Manu shouldn't start..no way..he's hot as fuck, and the fact that he's shooting lights out from the perimeter will help the spacing in the starting lineup, which has been a problem and something people didn't mention too much earlier in the season..

-Bogans shouldn't start, it shouldn't even be considered..see Aggie's post..if he plays more than 10 MPG in the playoffs, the Spurs are in even more trouble..

-There are people in this thread that are going to be heartbroken since they expect Richard Jefferson to "take the reigns" on this team in the playoffs..the Spurs shouldn't set their plans based on Richard Jefferson..

-Jefferson's usage % hasn't been much different since Tony went out of the lineup IIRC..sure, he's played better since TP left, but I think it's more of a coincidence than anything..I could be wrong though, I'm gonna be doing some research when I can to see if there's a link..Jefferson isn't getting many more possessions without Parker..he's clearly been more aggressive since his hot streak started, I don't think it has much to do with TP..

Jefferson just has to actually attack when he has the ball when TP is in the lineup..when has Parker ever complained about anything like this?..I'm sure he would like having a teammate to help, especially when he's the one that said the Spurs need better players following the loss to the Mavs, IIRC..

Either way, if Jefferson needs Manu to score, then we're screwed either way..that shit doesn't work in the playoffs, teams scout and analyze specific teams a lot more..Jefferson is gonna need to score on his own at times, it doesn't matter who he's playing with..

You're right, but Pop will also want someone he feels comfortable guarding top opposition wings starting and that's why I doubt we see Ginobili/Parker starting in conjunction with Jefferson. Hill can fill the spacing for the starting lineup role and guard these types of players and that's why he'll continue to start. With the way Ginobili is playing, I don't think Pop makes the switch instantly. He'll wait and if the Spurs get a split in their first two playoff games, stick with if. If they go down 0-2, Ginobili's probably going back to the bench and Parker is probably starting.

It doesn't matter that much though. Either way, this is the best back court in the league and the way Pop handles the rotation the first sub is coming 5-7 minutes in, so it's not like we're talking about a lineup that's going to last almost all of the 1st and 3rd quarters, like most teams. This matters more when a minimal player like Bogans starts, but three guys of this caliber (even though Hill is still a clear cut third), it's not that big of a deal.

No way Bogans starts. Because of Hill's emergence, the Spurs will likely play a three guard rotation, Bogans will likely be almost strictly the backup three. I don't expect him to exceed 15 mpg in the playoffs, but of course, this is predicated on match-ups.

I think Jefferson will be fine in the playoffs. His scoring will likely decrease, because obviously Parker will be taking more shots, but overall he'll become almost an afterthought for teams defensively, because he's really the fifth scorer. He has to shoot the three a little better than 32% though. I don't expect the 39% he shot last season, but at least 35%, which is respectable enough to keep the defense honest and allow him to drive their closeouts, which is (other than in transition) when he's at his best.

Where he can really help the Spurs is to help avoid the scoring droughts they're infamous for running into in the playoffs, particularly when one or two of the big three are resting. When two or all of them are in the game, he'll be almost an afterthought offensively and have to provide value by rebounding and playing solid defense.

[jestersmash]

If only fatigue were not an issue...

If fatigue were not an issue, we would play tony, ginobili, duncan all night every night for 48 minutes. That would by far be the strongest lineup.

What people are referring to is, if you have ginobili, parker, and duncan to start the game, ginobili's talent is "wasted" in the following sense:

He's not going to touch the ball/facilitate the offense every single time with tony on the floor. Yet, he's going to have to hustle his ass off on the defensive end and will end up getting winded by the time the ball actually gets to his hands, thus taking away from his offensive capabilities.

Oh and the bench vs starting argument is valid. Some players have psychological advantages/disadvantages coming off the bench and playing as a starter.

With Manu, I don't think this is necessarily the case, but I do think there is a rhythm component here. Ginobili has proven time and time again that his offensive production increases appreciably when he starts versus as a bench player even if the total time played is the same

That's why I never buy this "It's not who starts the games, it's who finishes" deal. Yeah, that little mantra is valid as far as ego goes, but we're not talking about ego here, nobody gives a shit about ego/prestige of being a starter versus bench player. It's a no brainer, the 3 best players we have are (and likely will be for the next 2-3 years) duncan parker and ginobili. Ginobili isn't hte 6th best player on this team, and Parker won't be branded as the "6th best" or "6th option" if he came off the bench either, so ego should be a non-issue here.


Here is what I think - in my opinion, Parker fulfills the role of the "instant offense" bench player that we sorely need. Ginobili used to fill this roll, and Ginobili can still fill it decently, but the caveat is Ginobili is a better facilitator than Parker.


Parker's playmaking abilities are linear and somewhat predictable, at best, and I think it has to do with his specific style of driving to the basket. The way parker drives to the basket and the way ginobili drives to the basket are very different.

Ginobili's drives to the basket appear to draw double team more effectively and give the open man on the spurs more time/room than Parker drives to the basket.

However, Parker is a better 1 on 1 "instant offense" "do it by myself" guy than Ginobili. Parker has that little tear drop/floater in the lane (which Ginobili has actually attempted as of recent, but isn't nearly as good as it as parker is) that is just money, and he can maneuver around with shorter dribbles/shorter but quicker steps. Ginobili is more of a longer stride guy and as far as "instant offense" goes, Ginobili is not as good as Parker in terms of doing it by himself

Parker can do it "by himself" more effectively than Ginobili. Why? Because Parker has an easier time getting into the heart of the paint by himself whereas Ginobili sometimes has to rely relatively more on jump shots. Relatively more is key here. I know Ginobili is an excellent slasher and can virtually get to the rim at will, but Parker with his "shorter" dribbling and short but quick steps simply has an easier time penetrating into the heart of the paint. For some reason (maybe due to his size, maybe due to his positioning while in the paint which is not perceived to be as large a threat as ginobili), Parker does not draw double teams as well as Ginobili does and therefore when Parker does his little drive and kick out to the wing, it's not nearly as effective as when Ginobili does it.

Ginobili can do it by himself plenty well, but more importantly, he flat out has better court vision than Parker and seems to give his teammates better, easier opportunities than Parker's facilitation.

It's precisely for these reasons that I think Ginobili should stay in the starting lineup, and Parker should come off the bench as the 6th man.

[ducks]

Yeah, because only Tony can pass him the ball in the low block :rolleyes

Again, this is about who starts the game. I think we can all agree Tony and Tim would be part of our lineup to close out close games.

duncan has sucked much more since tp has been out

oh this team lost to the nets without tp


rj and manu off the bench would be fine





if rj is all that he will still attack with tp
it was not tp fault rj refused to attack with tp and settle with those long jumpers

[ducks]

oh and tp when he comes back from injury is not rusty like other players
he is sharp

[ducks]

If you remember, before Parker went down with the hand injury, Pop was starting him and Hill in the same back court, with good results. My starting linup would be:

1. Parker
2. Hill
3. Bogans
4. Duncan
5. McDyess

This way, you bring Ginoboli and Jefferson, who play really well together off the bench. Blair seems to play alot better with Manu as well. With Manu in his 6th man role, it really makes the Spurs bench more explosive, scoring/playmaking wise.


ditto
if rj can only play with manu bring him off the bench




if rj can only play with manu does that mean manu has to be resigned to play with rj and whatever cost?

[jestersmash]

duncan has sucked much more since tp has been out

oh this team lost to the nets without tp


rj and manu off the bench would be fine





if rj is all that he will still attack with tp
it was not tp fault rj refused to attack with tp and settle with those long jumpers

Attack does not exclusively mean "give me the ball and let me work either an isolation play where I get to the rim or have someone set a pick/screen for me and I get to the rim"

Many, many times in the past month we've seen Ginobili the one to drive initially, drawing some sort of double team and causing some sort of chaos with the opposing team defense, and then RJ taking advantage of this "chaos" and receiving the ball from ginobili while going hard to the rim. That also constitutes "attacking the rim," and it's that form of attacking (where RJ is really the secondary attacker) that flounders due to a lack of chemistry between Parker and RJ.

That's precisely why RJ hasn't been bashful about openly saying that he prefers to play with Ginobili. Ginobili sets him up better.

You make it sound like RJ has the ability to catch the ball up top and create his own shot at the rim. He's not that kind of player. Parker can do that, Ginobili can do that, but RJ can't do it as well (although he obviously can do it under some circumstances)

What RJ can do really well is receive the ball from an initial drive that draws a strong double team (occurs with Ginobili, especially) and attack the rim as a secondary attacker, and finish.

[benefactor]

oh and tp when he comes back from injury is not rusty like other players
he is sharp
What part of "injured shooting hand" are you not comprehending? Oh wait, nevermind.

[Slippy]

If only fatigue were not an issue...

If fatigue were not an issue, we would play tony, ginobili, duncan all night every night for 48 minutes. That would by far be the strongest lineup.

What people are referring to is, if you have ginobili, parker, and duncan to start the game, ginobili's talent is "wasted" in the following sense:

He's not going to touch the ball/facilitate the offense every single time with tony on the floor. Yet, he's going to have to hustle his ass off on the defensive end and will end up getting winded by the time the ball actually gets to his hands, thus taking away from his offensive capabilities.

Oh and the bench vs starting argument is valid. Some players have psychological advantages/disadvantages coming off the bench and playing as a starter.

With Manu, I don't think this is necessarily the case, but I do think there is a rhythm component here. Ginobili has proven time and time again that his offensive production increases appreciably when he starts versus as a bench player even if the total time played is the same

That's why I never buy this "It's not who starts the games, it's who finishes" deal. Yeah, that little mantra is valid as far as ego goes, but we're not talking about ego here, nobody gives a shit about ego/prestige of being a starter versus bench player. It's a no brainer, the 3 best players we have are (and likely will be for the next 2-3 years) duncan parker and ginobili. Ginobili isn't hte 6th best player on this team, and Parker won't be branded as the "6th best" or "6th option" if he came off the bench either, so ego should be a non-issue here.


Here is what I think - in my opinion, Parker fulfills the role of the "instant offense" bench player that we sorely need. Ginobili used to fill this roll, and Ginobili can still fill it decently, but the caveat is Ginobili is a better facilitator than Parker.


Parker's playmaking abilities are linear and somewhat predictable, at best, and I think it has to do with his specific style of driving to the basket. The way parker drives to the basket and the way ginobili drives to the basket are very different.

Ginobili's drives to the basket appear to draw double team more effectively and give the open man on the spurs more time/room than Parker drives to the basket.

However, Parker is a better 1 on 1 "instant offense" "do it by myself" guy than Ginobili. Parker has that little tear drop/floater in the lane (which Ginobili has actually attempted as of recent, but isn't nearly as good as it as parker is) that is just money, and he can maneuver around with shorter dribbles/shorter but quicker steps. Ginobili is more of a longer stride guy and as far as "instant offense" goes, Ginobili is not as good as Parker in terms of doing it by himself

Parker can do it "by himself" more effectively than Ginobili. Why? Because Parker has an easier time getting into the heart of the paint by himself whereas Ginobili sometimes has to rely relatively more on jump shots. Relatively more is key here. I know Ginobili is an excellent slasher and can virtually get to the rim at will, but Parker with his "shorter" dribbling and short but quick steps simply has an easier time penetrating into the heart of the paint. For some reason (maybe due to his size, maybe due to his positioning while in the paint which is not perceived to be as large a threat as ginobili), Parker does not draw double teams as well as Ginobili does and therefore when Parker does his little drive and kick out to the wing, it's not nearly as effective as when Ginobili does it.

.

you summed it up well.


Ginobili can do it by himself plenty well, but more importantly, he flat out has better court vision than Parker and seems to give his teammates better, easier opportunities than Parker's facilitation.

It's precisely for these reasons that I think Ginobili should stay in the starting lineup, and Parker should come off the bench as the 6th man.

Surely at this time of the season , pop wont lose sight of this. We know along with scoring, Tony and Manu are easily the best creators on this team. Manu however does a better job of recognizing his teammates strengths, plus reading defenses better. He will put them in their best positions to score. Not just RJ but also Hill, Dice and TD. Dice these days is missing shots he should be making. He will break out of that slump. Tim for a long time now has been showing signs of wear and tear (before Tony's injury). Some days his limp is more obvious than other days. Having Manu in there lessens the burden on him to score or atleast gets him easier shots running the P'n'R.

Another big factor which wasn't available earlier in the season is that opposing teams are just so fucused on containing Manu now, that it frees up others even before he makes a move. It would be crazy not to milk it as much as possible.

Something Pop even with his ways will not ignore, defensively as a unit the spurs are doing the best the've done all season.

[Slippy]

duncan has sucked much more since tp has been out

oh this team lost to the nets without tp


rj and manu off the bench would be fine





if rj is all that he will still attack with tp
it was not tp fault rj refused to attack with tp and settle with those long jumpers

Stop with this. Truth is Tim is still getting fed in the post from RJ, Hill and Manu. It's pretty clear he is struggling and depending on the match-up will continue to. All you can hope for is that once the play-offs start with rest he will pull up better health-wise.

For now, I would rather see Manu run the offense and get Tim some easy baskets so his confidence remains above-average going into the play-offs.

[ThaiFanofSpurs]

I don't care who starts the game between TP/Manu. I think what is more important is how to manage both their minutes to keep them fresh for closing out the games. To me, Manu is a better closer than TP and that might be the reason I think we need him to come off the bench. Hopefully, we are fortunate enough to have a healthy TP back, plus a recent performance plays of Hill and RJ will be carried over into the POs.

A lot of people seem to forget that games in the POs will be played harder and more pressured. I am very happy to see Manu being old Manu again, but we can't forget that we still need TP being old TP to win a championship (yes, I am still hoping.)

My point is I don't care who will start the game, either TP, Manu, or Hill. We all make assumptions based on our chemistry theory. A lot of people, including me, have complained about Pop this year. At the end, I still trust Pop's decisions, especially he is the one being closer to all the players and the team practices than we are. Well, I think I would just wait and see. GSG!

[FeZZy]

wow okay!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

duncan has sucked much more since tp has been out

oh this team lost to the nets without tp


rj and manu off the bench would be fine





if rj is all that he will still attack with tp
it was not tp fault rj refused to attack with tp and settle with those long jumpers


Lick my taint, ducks.

This team is [insert infinity symbol] better with Tony coming of the bench and rolling out a perimter starting lineup of Hill, Manu, and Jefferson.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

But do you guys think Pop will actually even consider bringing TP off the bench come playoff time? I could see him doing it when Parker first returns to ease him back in, but I'd be stunned if Pop decides to make Tony come off the bench full time during the playoffs.

It's definitely intriguing.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I agree. It makes ZEEEERRRROOOO sense to put in Parker with essentially no time to experiment once he comes back.

It's do or die time when he comes back. If Popavich starts Parker, I am completely off the Pop bandwagon and open to anyone coming in to replace him. Because that would be yet another mind boggling stupid move by him in the last three years.
I don't think he will do it, or I hope he won't.

I say you keep the current lineup, and use Tony as the new Manu.

Have him come in with Bonner, so theres a shooter out there for his collapse of the defense with his penetration.


Boy won't that be hilarious if we see Pop doing crazy lineup shit with the one or two regular games we have once Tony comes back? Can you imagine something so stupid?

[TJastal]

Well actually it is a good question, tell me. You have no respect at all for the guy, I'm sure you were in the group defending the trade parker for biedrins..

I was actually the guy who came up with the trade. So what? According to Poppycock himself “There's a whole lot of talk that goes on between all 30 teams, and as we all know, come trade deadline, very little ever happens. So I wouldn't hold my breath or anything like that.” So a fan made a trade proposal on a message board. Get over it.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Popovich_wont_hold_his_breath_on_a_trade.html

Your point was TP and Manu can't play together because we waste Manu talent doing that, why bringing Jeff and Hill on the conversation. Your TP/Manu argument failed you don't win a ring with two guys who don't fit with each other playing them together 30 mn a game.

RJ and Hill aside, it's been 3 years now since the spurs won squat, maybe it's time to admit it's not working?

Yes I have no problem with that even if I think we should play Manu and TP the most we can.

Great, but there is a reason Manu has been in a 6th man role most of his career, and that's because he's more effective with the ball in his hands as a playmaker. Pairing him with Parker takes the ball out of his hands. Simple logic really.

When TP was on the floor before his injury the spurs were just fine playing well. Jeff was passive because he was passive, he played well with TP and like shit without him.

Not sure what games you were watching but I didn't see any improvement in Jefferson's game until Popovich put him in the 2nd unit.

Regarding the Defense Hill stepped up the last 3 games, before that he was just awful. Parker has always defended well in the PO.

Parker has sucked defensively for awhile now, in the reg season and playoffs. Hill is 3X the defensive player of Parker.

[TJastal]

Parker might come off the bench at first, just to shake the rust off. But I agree that Ginoboli would be a better option back in his 6th man role, just for the fact that he has the expierence in that role, as opposed to Parker.

Your like a stubborn old fucking goat. Worse even. Who the f--- cares what used to work last decade? The proof is already in the pudding. The Manu/Hill/Jefferson lineup is proving itself superior to any lineup with Parker in it, just look at the how the team is playing since the change.

[Brazil]

I was actually the guy who came up with the trade. So what? According to Poppycock himself “There's a whole lot of talk that goes on between all 30 teams, and as we all know, come trade deadline, very little ever happens. So I wouldn't hold my breath or anything like that.” So a fan made a trade proposal on a message board. Get over it.

parker for biedrins, you're saying you're not a tp hater :lol


RJ and Hill aside, it's been 3 years now since the spurs won squat, maybe it's time to admit it's not working?.

I don't get your point. We won squat because TP and Manu play too minutes together or play together ? We won squat because of a lot of reason: manu injuries, our supporting cast (mason thomas ime bonner.. Just to remind that last year our second best rebounder in the mavs serie was tony parker)....


Great, but there is a reason Manu has been in a 6th man role most of his career, and that's because he's more effective with the ball in his hands as a playmaker. Pairing him with Parker takes the ball out of his hands. Simple logic really.

:lol both spend more time playing together than alone. Of course playing Manu in the second unit gives him more touches, the objective is also to have a strong scond unit that makes the difference.


Not sure what games you were watching but I didn't see any improvement in Jefferson's game until Popovich put him in the 2nd unit.

My point is jefferson had great games with TP and awful game w/o him. If he sucked it was his fault.


Parker has sucked defensively for awhile now, in the reg season and playoffs. Hill is 3X the defensive player of Parker.

Parker stepped up his defense since the ASG, he was playing good D before his injury. Parker has always played good D in the POs it's not even debatable. Hill has more upside than parker defensively no doubt but he was struggling before the two last games on D, now he is adjusting his game to find a good balance between O and D. I hope he will keep this intensity during the POs.

[RiverwalkParade]

Don't know if it has been said yet, but why not start Parker and Manu and let Manu run the offense? Manu is the best point on this team and TP is really an undersized 2. With Hill playing well, move him to the bench to run the second unit and see what you get out of a starting five of

PG: Manu
SG: Parker
SF: Jefferson
PF: Duncan
C: McDyess

[EVAY]

our starting lineup is starting games very well and rj is much better with manu handling the ball alot more.

If parker starts, manu goes back to the 6th man role. I think that would be a terrible mistake considering how dominant he has been as a starter.

+1000

[EVAY]

Don't know if it has been said yet, but why not start Parker and Manu and let Manu run the offense? Manu is the best point on this team and TP is really an undersized 2. With Hill playing well, move him to the bench to run the second unit and see what you get out of a starting five of

PG: Manu
SG: Parker
SF: Jefferson
PF: Duncan
C: McDyess

Because Jefferson plays much better with Manu than with Parker, and Manu plays much better without Parker than with him.

Parker goes into a 'me and Timmy' mode almost immediately.

The only way this could change is if Pop called all the plays from the sideline and called plays specifically for Manu and Jefferson. Otherwise, neither of them get the ball enough (Manu) or in the right places (Jefferson).

With respect to those who have said that the championship teams had Ginobili and Parker on the floor at the same time...that was different...Pop called all the plays then.

[mingus]

As good as Hill has been playing, he was shut down in the second half by Artest and better overall team defense, and he was a non-factor in that half. that wouldn't have happened with TP. i think Hill can reach a where he's reliable and finds a way to score when he wants to, but right now TP is the more effective player at that. he was an MVP candidate last year.

the lineup that will scare teams the most is:

TP
Manu
RJ
Dice
TD

Bench
Hill
RMJ (the one with confidence)
Blair
Bonner

i'm still worried about how are bigs will matchup with LA's, but the thing with the first lineup is it's a great penetrating lineup that can cause them to pick up fouls. and a less aggressive frontcourt for LA would be key.

i just say put the most talent in there, and let them figure it out. TP has been sitting out this whole time, but he's also (i hope) been observing while doing so the things that are making this team go. i'm confident he'll adapt his game to it. he won't have a lot of time to do it, but he's had plenty of time to understand this team from an outsiders prespective.

[mabrignani]

yeah put tony in manu's old spot off the bench. the way hill is playing he should be the starter with manu once tp gets back bc tony can be that spark off the bench that manu used to be

[DPG21920]

Parker should start.

[MannyIsGod]

3 pages of people buying into this horseshit? Wow

[Pauleta14]

As good as Hill has been playing, he was shut down in the second half by Artest and better overall team defense, and he was a non-factor in that half. that wouldn't have happened with TP. i think Hill can reach a where he's reliable and finds a way to score when he wants to, but right now TP is the more effective player at that. he was an MVP candidate last year.

the lineup that will scare teams the most is:

TP
Manu
RJ
Dice
TD

Bench
Hill
RMJ (the one with confidence)
Blair
Bonner

i'm still worried about how are bigs will matchup with LA's, but the thing with the first lineup is it's a great penetrating lineup that can cause them to pick up fouls. and a less aggressive frontcourt for LA would be key.

i just say put the most talent in there, and let them figure it out. TP has been sitting out this whole time, but he's also (i hope) been observing while doing so the things that are making this team go. i'm confident he'll adapt his game to it. he won't have a lot of time to do it, but he's had plenty of time to understand this team from an outsiders prespective.



:tu

[jjktkk]

Your like a stubborn old fucking goat. Worse even. Who the f--- cares what used to work last decade? The proof is already in the pudding. The Manu/Hill/Jefferson lineup is proving itself superior to any lineup with Parker in it, just look at the how the team is playing since the change.

LMAO, last decade, so long ago? So lame, did you come up with this "last decade" debate while playing at recess today? But Pop does have a dilemma on his hands on how best to utilize Parker. The Manu, Hill, and Jefferson have been playing well together, but its not like Parker is some scrub that forgot how to play and the Spurs were playing well with Parker, before Parker went down with his hand injury. And where did you come up with this stubborn goat crap? My projected lineup is based on Ginoboli's ability to thrive in the 6th man role, and Parker being use to being in the starting lineup. The bottom line is, I'm rooting for whatever lineup produces results. Whether thats Parker starting, or coming off the bench.

[Galileo]

Recall to last year when the Spurs were playing 2 on 5, with only Parker and Duncan.

This alone ought to permeate the thought that Parker play at least 30 minutes per game.

We know Mason is no good in the playoffs. He can only produce if the rest of the team is going well and threes fall into his lap. The same goes for Bonner, although Bonner seems improved a bit.

Hill didn't do much last year but is way improved.

The rest of our rotation is all new from last year; Manu, Bogans, Dice, Blair, Jefferson.

Overall, this team is much better than last year. Duncan was injured last year as well. This year his numbers have gone down but whatever the reason he is still douing better than last year at this time.

[santymrc]

Since Manu came to the starting lineup, we are not trailing teams or playing catch-up (at least, most of the time we are close or ahead). I like that. When Manu was in the bench, our starting lineup didn't have enough power to stay in the game. That's a fact. We don't have the same bench now, sometimes we lose leads couse of that or the games get closer than they should -like Boston- but Manu gets back and makes the plays to put them way down again.
I'd rather make others teams play catch-up than us.

[MannyIsGod]

Parker is a top 3 NBA point guard that you guys want to bring off the bench?

Seriously?

What the fuck?

[MannyIsGod]

For George Fucking Hill?

[Slomo]

3 pages of people buying into this horseshit? Wow

I jumped directly to the last page hoping to see a post that would sum up this thread so I wouldn't have to read all of it.

Thank you! :tu

[sonic21]

Hill is becoming really overrated here.

[DesignatedT]

If RJ ends up starting with TP he will still get plenty of time with manu and you can still balance it out where he gets most his minutes with Manu on the floor. it isnt that big of a deal. but parker should start and Manu should go back to the bench IMO. mainly because we know that there wont be any complications and it will be a smooth transition since manu is so used to being the 6th man.

[jjktkk]

if rj ends up starting with tp he will still get plenty of time with manu and you can still balance it out where he gets most his minutes with manu on the floor. It isnt that big of a deal. But parker should start and manu should go back to the bench imo. Mainly because we know that there wont be any complications and it will be a smooth transition since manu is so used to being the 6th man.

+1

[TD 21]

Playing Parker off the ball is stupid, because he's not a great spot up shooter, has limited range on his jump shot and his greatest strength, which is handling the ball and creating, either for himself or others, would be limited.

[TMTTRIO]

If Manu goes back to the bench don't expect him to play like he has been playing and expect him to drop it down a notch (although with a contract on the line somewhere he may). I've never understood how people can say he's a better player off the bench. He seems to step it up to a higher level when starting. If we're going to bring Tony back and start him I hope he's 100% and score at will like he has been doing otherwise it's going to be a mess if we get ourselves in a hole and can't bring ourselves out of it. I kind of like the idea of starting the guys who we have now and allowing Tony to do all the scoring coming off the bench.

[DesignatedT]

If Manu goes back to the bench don't expect him to play like he has been playing and expect him to drop it down a notch (although with a contract on the line somewhere he may). I've never uunderstood how people can say he's a better player off the bench. He seems to step it up to a higher level when starting. If we're going to bring Tony back and start him I hope he's 100% and score at will like he has been doing otherwise it's going to be a mess if we get ourselves in a hole and can't bring ourselves out of it. I kind of like the idea of starting the guys who we have now and allowing Tony to do all the scoring coming off the bench.

lol of course his production will drop off a little bit... he wont have to carry the tam by himself anymore.... which is a good thing. manu will be manu whether hes coming off the bench or not. important part is he will be in the game when it counts

[HarlemHeat37]

-According to the stats, the Spurs 3 best lineups this season all involve Tony Parker..so much for that..

-When has Manu ever had any problems playing with TP..seriously?..Manu plays better without him?..no, Manu has better stats without him, because he touches the ball more, which happens with every team in the NBA for obvious reasons..I'd rather Manu have worse stats(PPG, APG) and less workload, for obvious reasons..

-People that are saying the Spurs are "playing better" now are ignoring some key aspects from earlier in the season..Manu was an average player for the entire year up until the 2nd half of the season, this obviously had a huge impact..Jefferson was still finding his role and playing soft, even when the Spurs started increasing his workload..he's clearly finding his way better than he did earlier..are you guys blaming Tony Parker for Manu and RJ struggling earlier in the season?..that wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when it comes to Manu..

I'm not advocating anything here, I could see it going either way, but let's stop making shit up..

[benefactor]

You guys act like he didn't break his shooting hand and will be in perfect game shape as soon as he walks on the floor.

[Big Empty]

I can see Parker feeling like he has something to prove if we bring him off the bench and ballhogging. I say after a few tune up games, start Parker and Hill and Bring Manu And Jefferson off the bench

[jjktkk]

If Manu goes back to the bench don't expect him to play like he has been playing and expect him to drop it down a notch (although with a contract on the line somewhere he may). I've never understood how people can say he's a better player off the bench. He seems to step it up to a higher level when starting. If we're going to bring Tony back and start him I hope he's 100% and score at will like he has been doing otherwise it's going to be a mess if we get ourselves in a hole and can't bring ourselves out of it. I kind of like the idea of starting the guys who we have now and allowing Tony to do all the scoring coming off the bench.

Manu is Manu, whether hes starting, or coming off the bench. He excels in both roles. I only advocated Manu returning to his 6th man role because he has proven that he can thrive in the 6th man role and he improves the Spurs bench. I don't know if Parker can have the same impact, playing the 6th male role like Ginoboli can.

[Jekka]

You guys act like he didn't break his shooting hand and will be in perfect game shape as soon as he walks on the floor.

No.

You guys act like he wasn't All NBA last year. George Hill can win MIP every year for the rest of his career and still not be as good as Parker.

-Manny

[benefactor]

No.

You guys act like he wasn't All NBA last year. George Hill can win MIP every year for the rest of his career and still not be as good as Parker.

-Manny
Last year doesn't have anything to do with him breaking his shooting hand and only having a couple of games before the playoffs to get in game shape and find his shot...a shot that has already been a bit up and down this year.

[Josepatches_]

The team is playing great with Manu at point.That's true.We defeated the Cavs & The Magic.

Manu has 80% of the time the balls in his hands. He is scoring after dribble.Not catch & shoot.

When Tony was the point he had the ball most of the time too.


So that's something to fix.If TP can play a role like George Hill he could be a starter with Manu being the leader of the team.But if he wants to play like he always did the We had a problem with that

Put TP as starter in the role of Hill and the team will play as well.

Now we have something that it's working.There's not time to change it in the playoffs.It would be stupid.
So the question is to add TP without change the actual gameplay of the team.He can't be the former Parker.He can start off the bench or to play a secondary role like Tim while Manu runs the show.

[santymrc]

Is anyone there still wanting to put Manu on the bench?
Run for your livessss!!! hahaha.

[kaji157]

I think the rotation is settled and either Parker comes off the bench or starts with Manu as in 2005 where he had the ball in his hands at the begining of the quarter and at the end it was Manu´s.

Very few people remember that that year Manu had probably his best PO and those were starting with Parker as a sidekick.

For whatever reason Parker seems to be unable to penetrate if he doesn´t dribble the ball 10 seconds before it, but when he and Ginobili played alongside, they assisted each othr very well for backdoors and also for penetration-kickout-penetration as Manu does with RJ.

[chazley]

After some thought, I believe Hill is best suited to come off the bench in a 7-man rotation with Parker/Gino/RJ/Duncan/McDyess starting. Bonner/Hill getting major minutes with Bogans/Hairston getting spot minutes. Mason just isn't effective at all.

[Johnny RIngo]

I can see Parker feeling like he has something to prove if we bring him off the bench and ballhogging. I say after a few tune up games, start Parker and Hill and Bring Manu And Jefferson off the bench

If this means inserting Bogans in the starting lineup then FUCK NO.

[duncan228]

Tonight.


Popovich said before the game that Parker is still on track to return as early as the final week of the regular season.