should we sit mason

[tothrowed]

going into the playoffs should we bench mason because he can hurt this team bad if he continues to play the way he is but then again if he gets on fire he can help us what yall think

[TimDunkem]

He should be the 12th man at most.

[Obstructed_View]

going into the playoffs should we bench mason because he can hurt this team bad if he continues to play the way he is but then again if he gets on fire he can help us what yall think

He doesn't hurt the team any more than anyone else who misses jump shots. He's a decent defender, he hustles and fights for rebounds, he can handle the ball and he has the potential to suddenly get his shooting stroke back and help the team tremendously. He should keep getting subbed in just in case he starts to shoot well again, but if he's not hitting shots he's not really contributing anything you can't get from someone else.

[tothrowed]

He doesn't hurt the team any more than anyone else who misses jump shots. He's a decent defender, he hustles and fights for rebounds, he can handle the ball and he has the potential to suddenly get his shooting stroke back and help the team tremendously. He should keep getting subbed in just in case he starts to shoot well again, but if he's not hitting shots he's not really contributing anything you can't get from someone else.
yea i feel you but what about the bad shots he takes

[Booharv]

Bogans will definitely get minutes Pop loves him so it comes down to Mason or Hairston. I would play Hairston over him. The rap on younger players like Hairston is they get lost on defense, don't make rotations quickly, don't have proper defensive fundamentals, etc. etc. but Mason is really awful on defense himself, so his major advantage is 3 pt shooting which he's been subpar lately anyway.

[raspsa]

His hand has to heal completely.. he has to keep shooting. Spurs are going to need all the help they can get.

[ohmwrecker]

yea i feel you but what about the bad shots he takes
He really doesn't take that many shots. His problem is that he needs to take more shots to get his stroke back and he is not getting the minutes to be effective. Of course, he doesn't really deserve the minutes, so it's quite the conundrum. He looks really confused a lot of the time and I don't see him getting much run in the playoffs, but I keep hoping he gets hot and has a "Jaren Jackson moment" because I want to like the kid. It's really hard to watch him struggle. I feel like he is throwing his career away with every brick.

[TD 21]

He should and will be the 10th man. Clearly, his torn ligament has significantly impacted his shooting, which is his greatest strength. He more than likely won't get his touch back this season and when healthy, the Spurs should and will go to a three guard rotation. Two of the three are shooting close to 40% from three, as is Bonner, so the Spurs aren't as desperate for Mason's shooting as they were a while ago.

[Spurs Brazil]

After I see Temple and Mason I'd rather have Temple active and Mason behind the bench. The kid plays hard.

Mason plays like he doesn't care

[Solid D]

He pretty much sits most of the time these days, anyways.

[Spurs Brazil]

He pretty much sits most of the time these days, anyways.

True, but behind the bench it's safe he can't enter the game

[ShoogarBear]

He really doesn't take that many shots. His problem is that he needs to take more shots to get his stroke back and he is not getting the minutes to be effective. Of course, he doesn't really deserve the minutes, so it's quite the conundrum. He looks really confused a lot of the time and I don't see him getting much run in the playoffs, but I keep hoping he gets hot and has a "Jaren Jackson moment" because I want to like the kid. It's really hard to watch him struggle. I feel like he is throwing his career away with every brick.

The Ghost of Jaren Jackson is exactly what I chanting in the back of my mind when I see Mason, hoping he gets possessed in the postseason.

[peskypesky]

He should be the 12th man at most.

not even

[pjjrfan]

At this point, no, but once Hill comes back, I don't see him logging a lot of minutes.

[gospursgojas]

The Ghost of Jaren Jackson is exactly what I chanting in the back of my mind when I see Mason, hoping he gets possessed in the postseason.

Lol ironicaly when jaren left the spurs his hair-do was like mason's.

Anywho...to answer the thread's question, YES

[HarlemHeat37]

Mason's just beyond done at this point..I don't see his confidence coming back, he just looks defeated..I don't even care about his shot, his defense and energy is horrible, as usual..just a liability..

If the Spurs need a wing ball handler on the floor, go with Temple..if they need athleticism/defender, go with Hairston..fuck Mason..

[EricB]

The Ghost of Jaren Jackson is exactly what I chanting in the back of my mind when I see Mason, hoping he gets possessed in the postseason.

Same here, problem is he's shooting like 2000 2001 Jaren.

[Baseline]

Mason's shot is all over the place.

Look at Bonner - he never takes a jumper unless his feet are set and his shoulders are squared. That's the way it should be.

I haven't seen Mason take a shot in three months where he was actually set. Every single jumper is leaning, rushed, or floating. It's ridiculous. If it doesn't looklike he's in rhythm, it's because he's not.

The guy plays - and shoots - like his pants are on fire.

So...no, Mason should not play. If he's in the building, I'm nervous. If he's in uniform, I'm terrified. And if Garrett Temple can actually hit threes, there's absolutely no reason for Mason to ever play another minute. Temple was more smooth against Sacramento than Mason has been in any game all year.

[ElNono]

Mason's shit is all over the place.

fify

[jjktkk]

He doesn't hurt the team any more than anyone else who misses jump shots. He's a decent defender, he hustles and fights for rebounds, he can handle the ball and he has the potential to suddenly get his shooting stroke back and help the team tremendously. He should keep getting subbed in just in case he starts to shoot well again, but if he's not hitting shots he's not really contributing anything you can't get from someone else.

I've never seen the evidence that Mason is a decent defender, nor any hustle from him. Mason just doesn't even seem to want to compete. As far as his ballhandling, hes average for a sg, below average for a pg. Basically if mason isn't hitting his jumper, hes worthless. Maybe, once his hand fully heals he can make a come back for some other team, but, man I haven't seen a guy just totally go from a solid role player, to shit in one season.

[jestersmash]

Read title as "should we hit mason" and came in here to say "yes"

[jestersmash]

Mason's shot is all over the place.

Look at Bonner - he never takes a jumper unless his feet are set and his shoulders are squared. That's the way it should be.

I haven't seen Mason take a shot in three months where he was actually set. Every single jumper is leaning, rushed, or floating. It's ridiculous. If it doesn't looklike he's in rhythm, it's because he's not.

The guy plays - and shoots - like his pants are on fire.

So...no, Mason should not play. If he's in the building, I'm nervous. If he's in uniform, I'm terrified. And if Garrett Temple can actually hit threes, there's absolutely no reason for Mason to ever play another minute. Temple was more smooth against Sacramento than Mason has been in any game all year.


I hate Mason as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to necessarily dog him on his form.

That's just his quirky form, he (used to) shoot those weird off the dribble, not-entirely-set-with-feet shots with terrific percentage.

Honestly I think doing a maneuver like that helps him get into rhythm or something.

Obviously he's shooting like shit but the point is, I don't think he'd be much better (maybe even WORSE than he already is, if that's possible) if he had only taken 3s with his feet set.

[lennyalderette]

when you think about it theres really no point in playing him as he has no future with the team, the only way id play him is to make sure we have an intense lead and just over work his ass to make sure ginobili and our main men are safe from havin to play or make him be the rough crazy guy that fouls particular people to throw off rhythm and this assignment can apply for bogans and mason whichever wants to enforce some violence hahaha just for ron psycho artest

[timvpimp]

If we want the game more like a show, Mason certainly is the last guy to trim because his catch-shoots are so clutch and I've only seen Ray Allen with the same quick hands TBH. But it doesn't win games to play a colander there against the opposing SG or SF. I think Mason should be used the same way Mavs use Barea who's also a liability but sometimes can bring some changes of tune into the game when his team is down and needs such changes.

[lennyalderette]

oh yeah and its almost official, mason is NOT Clutch !!! when the games actually mean something like L.A, orlando the guy is no where to be found, but lets say its preseason time and theres no worries, the guy is busting shots left and right. i may be wrong but last playoffs were terrible im sure pop isnt risking that nonsense again well see again tomorrow

[jestersmash]

Fact is we need a Roger Mason Jr. of last year in order to win a championship. Seriously.

We need a guy who can knock down a few 3s for us on dribble penetration.

Bogans isn't doing it. How many wide open 3s has Bogans bricked so far?

Ginobili and Bonner cannot carry the 3 point load by themselves. They are going to have off nights at the 3 point line every now and then, so we ideally need one solid 3 point shooting role player to fill that gap.


RMJ should've been that for us, and almost needs to be that for us if we even want to dream of a title.

[bus driver]

we should sit him on someone's bench!

i am officially off the RMJ bus! i was a closet RMJ fan but i cant do it anymore :bang

[jjktkk]

Fact is we need a Roger Mason Jr. of last year in order to win a championship. Seriously.

We need a guy who can knock down a few 3s for us on dribble penetration.

Bogans isn't doing it. How many wide open 3s has Bogans bricked so far?

Ginobili and Bonner cannot carry the 3 point load by themselves. They are going to have off nights at the 3 point line every now and then, so we ideally need one solid 3 point shooting role player to fill that gap.


RMJ should've been that for us, and almost needs to be that for us if we even want to dream of a title.

George Hill.

[TJastal]

we should sit him on someone's bench!

i am officially off the RMJ bus! i was a closet RMJ fan but i cant do it anymore :bang

I'm still riding. And hoping he'll catch fire in a few critical games this year in the playoffs to get his confidence humming. I have this feeling come playoff time at some point Temple is going to fold like a wet paper bag, Bogans will be bricking shots and making idiotic passes and Pop is going to turn to Roger for some relief.

[Cane]

I used to be a fan of Roger Mason Jr. His X-Mas shot against PHX was epic and he had some other buzzer beaters/game winners last season. He seemed like a great guy and his comments about wanting to retire as a Spur and liking SA is great to hear.

Then he crumbled in the playoffs and since the rodeo trip his shot has been MIA. Not to mention him asking for more minutes or to be traded and the Spurs pulled the trigger; unfortunately Miami's second round pick expired or w/e.

Mason Jr. is a good guy but he hasn't shown that he deserves his minutes over anybody. However Hill is injured so he's going to have his opportunities to prove otherwise.

[boutons_deux]

My appendix is contributes more than Moneyless Mase.

[Obstructed_View]

yea i feel you but what about the bad shots he takes

His shot selection is about the same as it was last year. The difference is this year they aren't going in so you think they're poor shots.

[Obstructed_View]

I've never seen the evidence that Mason is a decent defender, nor any hustle from him. Mason just doesn't even seem to want to compete. As far as his ballhandling, hes average for a sg, below average for a pg. Basically if mason isn't hitting his jumper, hes worthless. Maybe, once his hand fully heals he can make a come back for some other team, but, man I haven't seen a guy just totally go from a solid role player, to shit in one season.

Once you say this, it's pretty clear that you have your mind made up on him.

Basically if Mason isn't hitting his jumper he's Keith Bogans.

[mountainballer]

the question doesn't need to be answered. with Tony back and Hill there just won't be minutes for Mason in the PO rotation.
point and wing will be covered by Tony, GH, Manu and RJ playing 33-35 minutes each. what's left goes to Bogans (5-10 MPG).

[DesignatedT]

Once you say this, it's pretty clear that you have your mind made up on him.

Basically if Mason isn't hitting his jumper he's Keith Bogans.

if you honestly believe that masons defense is on par with bogans then i feel sorry for you.

Bogans isn't some savior or anything but his defense especially for the past few weeks has been very nice. He is a lot more versatile then mason..

just look at temple... playing the same position thats asked by mason to play since tony has been out and temple scored 15 and made some nice passes last night.

Mason is complete garbage. he will play for the minimum next year.

[greyforest]

RMJ was really disappointing starting with last year's playoffs. I wonder what happened to his psyche...he won at least 3 or 4 games during last year's regular season by dropping 3's at the buzzer.

Last year 3pt% was 42.1%, now it's 33.6%.

[bigdog]

Mason's defense at its best isn't even as good as Bogans at his worst. If Mason's shot isn't falling(and it rarely is), he's worthless. Temple is a better ball handler than him, so I'd rather have Temple running the point when TP and George are out of the game.

[greyforest]

RMJ was really disappointing starting with last year's playoffs. he won at least 3 or 4 games during last year's regular season by dropping 3's at the buzzer.

Last year 3pt% was 42.1%, now it's 33.6%. He hurt his hand, sure, but what about last year's playoffs? Has his hand been hurt this entire season? I don't think so. Must be psychological.

[Obstructed_View]

if you honestly believe that masons defense is on par with bogans then i feel sorry for you.

Bogans isn't some savior or anything but his defense especially for the past few weeks has been very nice. He is a lot more versatile then mason..


Mason's defense IS on par with Bogans, which is to say that Mason's not that bad and Bogans isn't that good. The real difference is that Bogans weighs a little more and has gotten the lion's share of the starts, minutes, and confidence this season. Bogans for the last few weeks has been less than the sieve that he was for most of the season, and has managed to score a bit and make some good passes. I'm glad he's contributing, as it's been good for the team, but if Mason returns to a fraction of what he was before Pop's failed backup point guard experiment, he'll quickly eclipse Bogans in usefulness.

[DesignatedT]

Mason's defense IS on par with Bogans, which is to say that Mason's not that bad and Bogans isn't that good. The real difference is that Bogans weighs a little more and has gotten the lion's share of the starts, minutes, and confidence this season. Bogans for the last few weeks has been less than the sieve that he was for most of the season, and has managed to score a bit and make some good passes. I'm glad he's contributing, as it's been good for the team, but if Mason returns to a fraction of what he was before Pop's failed backup point guard experiment, he'll quickly eclipse Bogans in usefulness.

of course. now its pops fault. at least your consistent :lol

and masons defense isn't anything close to bogans...

[Mr.Robinson]

going into the playoffs should we bench mason because he can hurt this team bad if he continues to play the way he is but then again if he gets on fire he can help us what yall think

Pop is looking like an idiot every time he plays. Mason doesn't give a fuck about this team. He sucks.

[jjktkk]

of course. now its pops fault. at least your consistent :lol

and masons defense isn't anything close to bogans...

You can tell by many of Obstructed_View's posts, that he doesn't think highly of Pop. I think Pop must be Obstructed_View's neighbor and cause Pop never says hi to him, he hates em. :lol

[cheney212]

i was expecting RMJ to contribute this season, but all he does is brick shots now and turn the ball over. I like him, but he hasn't proved he deserves quality minutes.

[spursfaninla]

Well, mason scored a ton and hit his 3's. However, his +/- indicate he must have been a liability on defense I guess. So I don't know.

I got the sense that we would have lost by more without him tonight.

[Borosai]

Mason scored tonight, but everyone he defended scored at will. I'm just glad he doesn't have a player option this summer. Right?! :(

[ElNono]

Waive this fucker... he should follow Finley to Boston to get his minutes...

[TJastal]

Waive this fucker... he should follow Finley to Boston to get his minutes...

I gotta say, this new protocol is da shit, thanks for everyone who has made it possible. Having a scapegoat on the team so nobody else's performance ever has to judged.. really keeps those pesky Tony Parker threads at bay.

It's real simple to. Lose a game? Blame Mason. Win a game? Blame Mason. Never mind about other stats like the team shooting 6-25 from the arc or missing 11 freebies, nah we can just blame Roger Mason for everything that goes wrong (or right) from now on.

[ElNono]

I gotta say, this new protocol is da shit, thanks for everyone who has made it possible. Having a scapegoat on the team so nobody else's performance ever has to judged.. really keeps those pesky Tony Parker threads at bay.

It's real simple to. Lose a game? Blame Mason. Win a game? Blame Mason. Never mind about other stats like the team shooting 6-25 from the arc or missing 11 freebies, nah we can just blame Roger Mason for everything that goes wrong (or right) from now on.

Quote where I blame Mason for the loss?

I blame Mason for Mason's poor defensive play. I do it when we win, and I do it when we lose. This is a guy that was asking to be traded because he thought he should get minutes, and when the minutes are handed to him, he proceeds to confirm why he wasn't getting any minutes.
We're 70+ games into the season now. We have a big sample size to see what this guy brings to the table. Being that he's a Spur, I really wish he would do well, but wishing doesn't get it done.

Again, feel free to pack his bags and walk away with him when he's gone this summer...

[TJastal]

Quote where I blame Mason for the loss?

I blame Mason for Mason's poor defensive play. I do it when we win, and I do it when we lose. This is a guy that was asking to be traded because he thought he should get minutes, and when the minutes are handed to him, he proceeds to confirm why he wasn't getting any minutes.
We're 70+ games into the season now. We have a big sample size to see what this guy brings to the table. Being that he's a Spur, I really wish he would do well, but wishing doesn't get it done.

Again, feel free to pack his bags and walk away with him when he's gone this summer...

I think his defense isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Sure its not on the level of George Hill but its equal to Parker or Bonner at the very least. Who torched the spurs tonight? Nash, Stoudemire, Richardson, Frye, and Hill... none of whom Mason exclusively guarded IIRC. I don't have the game DVR'd or I would go back through the entire tape and bring exacting evidence.....

[ElNono]

I think his defense isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Sure its not on the level of George Hill but its equal to Parker or Bonner at the very least. Who torched the spurs tonight? Nash, Stoudemire, Richardson, Frye, and Hill... none of whom Mason exclusively guarded IIRC. I don't have the game DVR'd or I would go back through the entire tape and bring exacting evidence.....

Go watch it again. He was assigned to Nash and Richardson most of the night.

[TDMVPDPOY]

win or lose, they just want him of the team...same with parker...

[jjktkk]

I gotta say, this new protocol is da shit, thanks for everyone who has made it possible. Having a scapegoat on the team so nobody else's performance ever has to judged.. really keeps those pesky Tony Parker threads at bay.

It's real simple to. Lose a game? Blame Mason. Win a game? Blame Mason. Never mind about other stats like the team shooting 6-25 from the arc or missing 11 freebies, nah we can just blame Roger Mason for everything that goes wrong (or right) from now on.

I don't blame Mason, nor do I necessarily want him gone from the Spurs. When his shot is on, like tonight, he can be a spark off the bench. But thats his only true asset. His defense and ball handling are below average. Its 3- pointers, or bust with Mason. So IMO that equates Mason being the 8th, or 9th guy off the bench at best.

[TJastal]

Go watch it again. He was assigned to Nash and Richardson most of the night.

I would if I had it taped. I got the espn play by play though.
1st quarter

5:20 Roger Mason enters the game for Manu Ginobili (assume he's on JRich)

Jason Richardson misses 4-foot jumper
Jason Richardson makes 23-foot three point jumper (Steve Nash assists)
Jason Richardson misses 7-foot two point shot

1:17 Roger Mason enters the game for Richard Jefferson but Parker is in the game, assume he's guarding Nash when he goes off right before the quarter ends........
Steve Nash makes two point shot
Steve Nash makes two point shot
Steve Nash makes 18-foot jumper

2nd quarter

7:24 Roger Mason enters the game for Manu Ginobili ... Nash gets another bucket not sure if Mason was guarding him (Temple was in the game so assume this was on Temple)

Tony Parker bad pass (Amare Stoudemire steals)
Jason Richardson makes dunk (Channing Frye assists) ... can't fault Mason
for this dunk

Nash makes a jumper and 2 free throws right before half, and this was not on Roger either (Parker was guarding Nash)

3rd quarter

4:41 Roger Mason enters the game for Garrett Temple

Jason Richardson makes 23-foot three point jumper (Channing Frye assists)
Jason Richardson makes layup (Steve Nash assists)
Jason Richardson makes dunk (Steve Nash assists

This is all I can find of Nash and J-Rich's scoring throughout the game when Roger was in the game at the same time. A whole 9 pts by Richardson, (11 if you count Parker's bad pass that led to a dunk, I don't count it personally) :lol

I'd have to assume Parker was on Nash when he was in the game and that's when Nash did most of his scoring damage. JRich had a burst in the 3rd quarter that looks like Roger was responsible for.. but he more than made up with his own offensive barrage.

[Obstructed_View]

of course. now its pops fault. at least your consistent :lol

and masons defense isn't anything close to bogans...

You're saying that inserting Mason as the backup point guard last year was a good thing? No wonder you think Bogans plays good defense. :lol

[ElNono]

I would if I had it taped. I got the espn play by play though.
1st quarter

5:20 Roger Mason enters the game for Manu Ginobili (assume he's on JRich)

Jason Richardson misses 4-foot jumper
Jason Richardson makes 23-foot three point jumper (Steve Nash assists)
Jason Richardson misses 7-foot two point shot

1:17 Roger Mason enters the game for Richard Jefferson but Parker is in the game, assume he's guarding Nash when he goes off right before the quarter ends........
Steve Nash makes two point shot
Steve Nash makes two point shot
Steve Nash makes 18-foot jumper

2nd quarter

7:24 Roger Mason enters the game for Manu Ginobili ... Nash gets another bucket not sure if Mason was guarding him (Temple was in the game so assume this was on Temple)

Tony Parker bad pass (Amare Stoudemire steals)
Jason Richardson makes dunk (Channing Frye assists) ... can't fault Mason
for this dunk

Nash makes a jumper and 2 free throws right before half, and this was not on Roger either (Parker was guarding Nash)

3rd quarter

4:41 Roger Mason enters the game for Garrett Temple

Jason Richardson makes 23-foot three point jumper (Channing Frye assists)
Jason Richardson makes layup (Steve Nash assists)
Jason Richardson makes dunk (Steve Nash assists

This is all I can find of Nash and J-Rich's scoring throughout the game when Roger was in the game at the same time. A whole 9 pts by Richardson, (11 if you count Parker's bad pass that led to a dunk, I don't count it personally) :lol

I'd have to assume Parker was on Nash when he was in the game and that's when Nash did most of his scoring damage. JRich had a burst in the 3rd quarter that looks like Roger was responsible for.. but he more than made up with his own offensive barrage.

We were switching most of the game. You said you have it taped, then don't assume anything. Go take a look and come back to me.
Don't forget to look when he's a weak side defender and he's supposed to rotate but doesn't. If you need a larger sample size, there's another 60 games or so where you can see his defensive ineptitude. All it takes is watching the games.

[TJastal]

We were switching most of the game. You said you have it taped, then don't assume anything. Go take a look and come back to me.
Don't forget to look when he's a weak side defender and he's supposed to rotate but doesn't. If you need a larger sample size, there's another 60 games or so where you can see his defensive ineptitude. All it takes is watching the games.

The fact that the spurs were switching on P&R's this game would indicate that they weren't relying on weakside help or rotations as much, just straight man vs man defense and live with the results.

[ElNono]

The fact that the spurs were switching on P&R's this game would indicate that they weren't relying on weakside help or rotations as much, just straight man vs man defense and live with the results.

If that's what you really, honestly think, then now I understand why you think Mason's defense doesn't suck. You just don't know how this team defends at all.

[ElNono]

And BTW, RJ missed rotations too. I'm not putting the entire defensive breakdown on this game on Mason, as I said earlier. He's just as bad when we win too.

[Obstructed_View]

It's pretty obvious to me that the scheme was designed to have someone cheat over on the pick and roll and that corner three was open all night. Failure to defend that shot was a team effort, and anyone that watched the game knows that.

[polandprzem]

It's pretty obvious to me that the scheme was designed to have someone cheat over on the pick and roll and that corner three was open all night. Failure to defend that shot was a team effort, and anyone that watched the game knows that.

CIA Pop again?

like he did in 2008 in regular season game he hardly run p&r against Suns, but in the playoffs it was pick and roll independance day.

[ohmwrecker]

Mason is definitely a poor rotation defender, but we have a couple of those. He actually has pretty decent on-ball and help defensive instincts, but his problem is that he over-commits to the ball and if he does that against a good passer (Nash) his man is always going to be open. He is always a step too slow closing out on the perimeter. Bonner is also really bad about this(He isn't very good rotating in the paint either). He is just too slow.
The root of our defensive rotations is due to our players in the post needing too much help and our guards over-commiting on that help. That's why Pop's refusal to play Ian is so frustrating. At the very least, Ian could provide a post "presence" that would keep opposing guards from getting deep in the paint. When we are getting pick and rolled to death and leaving shooters open on the perimeter, Pop could throw Ian in there for a few minutes to stop the bleeding.

[Obstructed_View]

CIA Pop again?

like he did in 2008 in regular season game he hardly run p&r against Suns, but in the playoffs it was pick and roll independance day.

I suppose it's possible. I've seen them just concede the switch on teams to give them a false sense of security and then suddenly change it up when it matters. The more I think about it the more I'm hoping that's the case.

Supposedly Pop really hates giving up the corner three, though. I don't recall him getting all that angry when they gave up like a thousand of them last night.

[Mel_13]

Supposedly Pop really hates giving up the corner three, though. I don't recall him getting all that angry when they gave up like a thousand of them last night.

I've never been a big believer in CIA Pop, but that was odd. There were numerous uncontested corner threes and normally that results in players getting yanked out of the game. I'm sure nobody was yanked and I don't even recall any yelling or gesturing. Strange.