Stats Lie...the Well is Dry.

[Parker2112]

:nope

I'm calling bullshit. On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all:p:).

First, the offense with Tony is usually directed in one of a few ways: pick and roll, drive to the cup, kick out for three, or Tony jumpshot.

Without Tony, as we have all seen, we have ball movement...side to side, front to back, on the break...guys aren't looking at Tony to see what his next move is going to be. They are making moves without the ball, making passes, not waiting to see if Tony is going to kick to them or not.

With Tony, we live and die with Tony, Tim and the long ball.


What the stats don't show (and why Timvp's analysis fails) is the reason this team is gelling now, after Tony goes down. Other guys have joined the effort. We are playing like a team... not just on offense but on defense as well (good defense follows confidence and trust, which follows team play on offense). Guys aren't standing around waiting for Tony's cue, they are attacking the other team, with or without the ball. How do you quantify this in the stats? You can't. At least not very well.

But lets try at least..so how about measuring our play by... the play of the team (odd concept!)? We wandered aimlessly all season, then when Tony goes down we find a team gelling on both ends of the floor. Excuses, justifications, stats, etc wont hide the realities of this season. But I believe we must learn from this to contend THIS YEAR.

IMO, when Tony is in the game, we have a 50% chance of getting a one-and-done, whether that's a TP jumper, a TD jumper or drive with no foul, a TP drive with no foul call and Tony on his butt, or a kick out to guys on the 3 that we can't trust (outside of Manu and Bonner). That kills runs, it kills other player's involvement, they dont get touches and they go cold. It kills easy shot opportunities. It makes games harder to win, and creates wear and tear on our old guys.

Stats to support? How about Pop not being able to rest TD this season after we play shitty ball all year, so shitty that most Spurs fans turn their back and walk away from the scene? How many back to backs has TD rested? I blame that on the lack of production from our role players (obvious point).

Without Tony, we have done a much better job of getting good shots because the ball is moving and so is our squad. The old offense (yes, the one that won championships) is stale, and like it or not, teams like Dallas and L.A. hope that we show up with that stale three-pronged attack. Contenders will let us win one or two in a series with hot three point shooting, and flame out overall because, as we have shown, we dont have perimeter killers who can sustain the effort over seven games.

On the other hand, they hope we don't move the ball, catching them off guard, finding Blair/Tim/Dice/RJ/Bogans right under the bucket. That is what we have been doing, and we have been beating title contenders...

...without Tony you say???? Gasp!!! You mean team play CAN overcome long odds??? You mean guys playing for each other CAN contend??? As Spurs fans, I thought that fact was a given for us all...

But blaming Tony is not the answer...Blame the stale three pronged attack!!!!

This gameplan is the product of years of championship success. It worked for years, but when other teams began to have success against it (or better yet age caught Timmy), and (most important) when our defense dwindled, we should have come up with something new.

Our downfall was that we simply continued to go to the well, even after it was obvious that there wasnt even enough in that approach to beat average teams, holding our hat in our hands and hoping it would come back.

It almost cost us the season. I blame Pop for this. There were times in past seasons when this team wanted Tony to be in constant attack mode. Tony attacked so much last year, he was gassed late in the season and in most 4th quarters. This was Pop's call.

But THIS YEAR, we needed help for Tim. We needed to integrate new faces. We needed other guys to earn their money. And when Tony went down, and MORE IMPORTANTLY when Pop was driven away from the well for 20 games, we did just that. No stats required. We beat contenders. That's what counts. The point is obvious. And in my estimation, Tony's play last night in Sacto shows that both he and Pop are trying to sustain things as they developed during his absence, not clog them up by going back to a dry well.

So the big question: NOW WHAT?
This team needs Tony to: 1) facilitate ball movement, not assists or point production OR TIMMY (TD can fend for himself)... and 2) attack the basket, but without calling his own number. If it's there it's there. If not, keep the ball moving.

Pop is the master of the Spurs attack each and every night, so if this happens it will be because he demanded it. And for what it's worth to all you Tony fanboys/girlss, I believe Tony will do what is asked from him to benefit the team.

One more time for the thumb.
:lobt2:

[Parker2112]

Oh, and LMAO at all the "fixtures" of this board, coming back to post after giving up on our season weeks ago...great job guys way to bleed silver and black:lol

"Enjoy a Timvp 12 hour marathon, guys! We are winning again...even without my boy!"

[Parker2112]

Stats lie...we have not been as good with TP as with George. And frontrunner fans need to be called out, even when they have >10000 posts or they own the board.

[WildcardManu]

too long to read

[Kori Ellis]

Stats lie...we have not been as good with TP as with George. And frontrunner fans need to be called out, even when they have >10000 posts or they own the board.

:lol timvp and I have had two new additions to our family in the last two months - that's why we haven't been on the board that much. It doesn't have to do with the Spurs record :lmao

[phxspurfan]

oh, the irony...

[Sisk]

As the others said - too long to read, and you're an idiot (not sure if anyone said that, but I am).

Why don't you and peskypesky go live on an island somehwere and talk about how great the Spurs would be with TP?

[EricB]

Typical newbie fail.

[Drachen]

The cliff notes version is "All of this should have been posted in the thread that TIMVP created about the Spurs with Tony vs. Spurs without Tony"

[doldrums]

actually, he put forth some compelling points amidst the high word count

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

"Fuck Vaughn, Get Lebron!"

[Parker2112]

:lol timvp and I have had two new additions to our family in the last two months - that's why we haven't been on the board that much. It doesn't have to do with the Spurs record :lmao


Typical newbie fail.

I knew this, and the absence was excused. Not sure how you can go from new parent with no time to 12-hour-marathon-post-anything-goes though:lol

[Obstructed_View]

Can you give me the cliff notes of what you said?

"I have 300 posts, but I'm a better fan than you. Trade Tony Parker. Pop Sucks. LJ and Kori are crap fans because they dared to take care of their baby."

[Drachen]

actually, he put forth some compelling points amidst the high word count

Great, but should he start a new thread to in order to make a counterpoint to a post in an already existing thread? If so, then I probably should have started a new thread for this post entitled "Doldrums misses point, read inside"

[Kori Ellis]

Not sure how you can go from new parent with no time to 12-hour-marathon-post-anything-goes though:lol
:lol
Because I said that I would watch both the kids so that he could have some computer time the other night.

[Parker2112]

As the others said - too long to read, and you're an idiot (not sure if anyone said that, but I am).

Why don't you and peskypesky go live on an island somehwere and talk about how great the Spurs would be with TP?

If you read it (which I assume ADD prevents) its not Tony at fault...it is our insistence on going to the well...

You reply with two sentences and call me an idiot? Best you can do? really?:lol

[Kori Ellis]

It's not a bad post with valid points, unlike your other "I hate Parker" threads. But accusing timvp of only posting because the Spurs have improved lately is obnoxious and insulting.

[timvp]

Pretty good post. Not sure why you didn't post it in thread you were referring. Maybe the rhyming thread title was too difficult to resist.

[Bukefal]

As the others said - too long to read, and you're an idiot (not sure if anyone said that, but I am).

Why don't you and peskypesky go live on an island somehwere and talk about how great the Spurs would be with TP?

[Cry Havoc]

Why do people keep comparing what a healthy George Hill has been able to do vs. an injured and ailing Parker?

Did you that Shawn Bradley was a better center in the 90s than Hakeem if both of his feet were severed and one of his arms were ripped off?

Parker has been playing at around 60% this year. If 60% Tony is even in the debate compared to Hill, how is Hill better than a healthy Parker?

[J.T.]

Tony wasn't holding this team back. His 30 injuries were.

[Drachen]

Pretty good post. Not sure why you didn't post it in thread you were referring. Maybe the rhyming thread title was too difficult to resist.

You can change the title on your post. C'mon!

[Parker2112]

It's not a bad post with valid points, unlike your other "I hate Parker" threads. But accusing timvp of only posting because the Spurs have improved lately is obnoxious and insulting.

It was not only aimed at Timvp, even if it does seem to be. This board has been deserted ever since around the time Timvp declared us dead. The lack of Spurstalk royalty posting during our struggles was pretty much complete, aside from a few.

As far as I am concerned though, spoiled spurs fans who never learned not to give up on our squad are insulting. Our team has been the dark horse for years, you would think our fans would not be so ready to fold during adversity.

And for the record, I dont hate TP...I never have. Go back and look at all my posts, I just hate the game we play with him as the head of the attack. TP would make a hell of a SG IMO. But to say I hate him is a bald lie.

Ive said it from day one...even as a southsider. Prove it otherwise...you cant. Go back and review the posts...youll surprise yourself.

Parker fans hate me because I speak my mind about Parker. I hate Parker fans because in them I see Kobe fans, just with a different fixation, a different guy filling it up. No need for intangibles or wins. Last season, too many people were happy to sing TP's praises while we floundered all year long.

And to me the Spurs are about team, and thats why I started rooting for them in the 80's. Its easy to understand, and unfortunately its easy to twist as well.

[Parker2112]

Why do people keep comparing what a healthy George Hill has been able to do vs. an injured and ailing Parker?

Did you that Shawn Bradley was a better center in the 90s than Hakeem if both of his feet were severed and one of his arms were ripped off?

Parker has been playing at around 60% this year. If 60% Tony is even in the debate compared to Hill, how is Hill better than a healthy Parker?

Its not about Parker or Hill, its about ball movement and team play. With it, we are contenders. Without it, we are lost.

[Sisk]

You can change the title on your post. C'mon!

:rollin nice post title change

[Parker2112]

Pretty good post. Not sure why you didn't post it in thread you were referring. Maybe the rhyming thread title was too difficult to resist.

I've been saying the same things all year, and before January it was ridiculous:lol The last 20 games have proved that we can win while playing as a team, which is what I've been preaching for years. And what TP fans have been denying for a while.

I didn't post in your thread because, even though it's a response, it is a complete thread in itself. I would have replied in your thread if I had read it early. And after a few hundred mindless handjobs for Timvp, its no longer the way to go.

[Drachen]

I've been saying the same things all year, and before January it was ridiculous:lol The last 20 games have proved that we can win while playing as a team, which is what I've been preaching for years. And what TP fans have been denying for a while.

I didn't post in your thread because, a lot of people had read it already and I was afraid that no one would go back and read my post. Mommy says I am really important so I think everyone should read me too. I would have replied in your thread if I had read it early. And after a few hundred mindless handjobs for Timvp, its no longer the way to go.

fixed.

[Doug Collins]

The only thing worse than a spoiled Spurs fan is an overly self-righteous one.

[DesignatedT]

we get it we get it... tony sucks. hill is better and the spurs should trade him for dalembert. now stfu

[spursfaninla]

pretty sweet rejoinder by timvp

I do notice a difference in ball movement and offensive style with manu as the starting pg. (notice, b/c manu was essentially the pg for the bench the whole year).

I don't know why the OP thinks that the Spurs can't have a complex style of play, some of which takes advantage of parker's strengths at times (one man fast break, best at getting to the rim, best at kickout for 3, best at pnr with duncan), and other styles which utilize manu as ball handler (motion offense opening driving lanes for RJ, Blair, Hill, manu running pnr).

By doing so, we make our offense less predictable. It is easier for the opponent to adjust to us when we have only 1, and they prepare for that.

I do think that parker-centered offense does benefit from 3pt shooting, but 1) Manu is good at that, 2) so is Hill, and 3) bonner works for that.

So, not sure where the problem is there. Our offense just got more diverse and less predictable.

[Parker2112]

:nope


But blaming Tony is not the answer...Blame the stale three pronged attack!!!!

This gameplan is the product of years of championship success. It worked for years, but when other teams began to have success against it (or better yet age caught Timmy), and (most important) when our defense dwindled, we should have come up with something new.

Our downfall was that we simply continued to go to the well, even after it was obvious that there wasnt even enough in that approach to beat average teams, holding our hat in our hands and hoping it would come back.

It almost cost us the season. I blame Pop for this.



we get it we get it... tony sucks. hill is better and the spurs should trade him for dalembert. now stfu

:lol so like a Parker fan...cant even read the OP before the bashing starts

[Parker2112]

The only thing worse than a spoiled Spurs fan is an overly self-righteous one.

I call em like I see em...and catch hell every step.

[Parker2112]

pretty sweet rejoinder by timvp

I don't know why the OP thinks... When did I say this? I know, lump me in with the mindless Parker haters...


that the Spurs can't have a complex style of play, some of which takes advantage of parker's strengths at times (one man fast break, best at getting to the rim, best at kickout for 3, best at pnr with duncan), and other styles which utilize manu as ball handler (motion offense opening driving lanes for RJ, Blair, Hill, manu running pnr).

By doing so, we make our offense less predictable. It is easier for the opponent to adjust to us when we have only 1, and they prepare for that.

I do think that parker-centered offense does benefit from 3pt shooting, but 1) Manu is good at that, 2) so is Hill, and 3) bonner works for that.

So, not sure where the problem is there. Our offense just got more diverse and less predictable.

Bottom Line: Takes what's open. This includes whats open for Parker. But preserve involvement for everyone through ball movement.

[Drachen]

:rollin nice post title change

Thank you very much!

[jjktkk]

pretty sweet rejoinder by timvp

I do notice a difference in ball movement and offensive style with manu as the starting pg. (notice, b/c manu was essentially the pg for the bench the whole year).

I don't know why the OP thinks that the Spurs can't have a complex style of play, some of which takes advantage of parker's strengths at times (one man fast break, best at getting to the rim, best at kickout for 3, best at pnr with duncan), and other styles which utilize manu as ball handler (motion offense opening driving lanes for RJ, Blair, Hill, manu running pnr).

By doing so, we make our offense less predictable. It is easier for the opponent to adjust to us when we have only 1, and they prepare for that.

I do think that parker-centered offense does benefit from 3pt shooting, but 1) Manu is good at that, 2) so is Hill, and 3) bonner works for that.

So, not sure where the problem is there. Our offense just got more diverse and less predictable.

+1. You can even start Hill and Parker together and bring Manu off the bench, if Pop wanted to go that route. Maybe not for this year, but next year. Bottom line is Parker is an asset, and will be needed if the Spurs want to contend.

[ohmwrecker]

The only thing worse than a spoiled Spurs fan is an overly self-righteous one.

Well, shit. They better burn this whole mother down if that's the case.
I liked the post. You made some decent arguments. Although nothing new was said and I think the big picture tends to get lost in all this over-analysis.
I really like the anti-establishment tone. The same people who trashed you are the same lackeys who are tripping over their dicks to congratulate Timvp on whatever new thread he posts and whether it's any good or not is irrelevant.
After Sequ"stat-padder"Spur's thread about how high-count posters deserve unearned respect from "noobs", this place seems about as sore as EricB's vagina. I am officially over the whole Spurstalk Old Boys Club.

[DesignatedT]

:lol so like a Parker fan...cant even read the OP before the bashing starts

i read it just seems like an excuse for when we lose (if we do).. blame tony and pop. how original.

[Drachen]

Well, shit. They better burn this whole mother down if that's the case.
I liked the post. You made some decent arguments. Although nothing new was said and I think the big picture tends to get lost in all this over-analysis.
I really like the anti-establishment tone. The same people who trashed you are the same lackeys who are tripping over their dicks to congratulate Timvp on whatever new thread he posts and whether it's any good or not is irrelevant.
After Sequ"stat-padder"Spur's thread about how high-count posters deserve unearned respect from "noobs", this place seems about as sore as EricB's vagina. I am officially over the whole Spurstalk Old Boys Club.

Sorry bud, I didn't circle jerk Timvp in his thread (only posted once saying that comparing a hurt TP to george hill isn't the fairest of all comparisons), and although, I guess I am technically a part of the old boys club (original member and male), you can see that my post count is low and I dare you to find a post where I go squawking about how people should respect me. I even called sequ out in his post. Shit, the only problem I have with this particular post is that it is obviously posted by a conceited and attention whorish poster.

[trypldubl]

All his points are valid! The OP was right when he said that teams like the Mavs and Lakers know how to play us. For the Lakers it was let Tony run around their guards for 3 quarters and then close the lanes down in the fourth. Making him either force shots or become a passing guard. The Mavs would stay at home with our shooters and play Tim strait-up. Meanwhile, causing
mismatches on the other end.

[ohmwrecker]

Sorry bud, I didn't circle jerk Timvp in his thread (only posted once saying that comparing a hurt TP to george hill isn't the fairest of all comparisons), and although, I guess I am technically a part of the old boys club (original member and male), you can see that my post count is low and I dare you to find a post where I go squawking about how people should respect me. I even called sequ out in his post. Shit, the only problem I have with this particular post is that it is obviously posted by a conceited and attention whorish poster.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking to you.
Edit: You are correct. I made a broad characterization to make my point. Apologies.

[Drachen]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking to you.
Edit: You are correct. I made a broad characterization to make my point. Apologies.


NP. I will forgive you, but only because I like your name. THE OLD BOYS CLUB HAS SPOKEN!

[tothrowed]

men lie women lie numbers dont lie....... men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie...

[DesignatedT]

men lie women lie numbers dont lie....... men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie men lie women lie numbers dont lie...

real talk.

[HarlemHeat37]

As for the point with more ball movement without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 22.5
APG with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 22.1

There isn't much of a difference at all..shit, I thought it would be more than this, since teams often rely on more ball movement when one of their star players go out, since you generally can't make up for the talent of a star..

As for the Spurs getting easier shots and being less reliant on 3s without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG at the rim with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 8.3
APG at the rim with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 8.1

APG leading to 3-pointers with TP out of the lineup: 6.1
With TP out: 5.9

This season's version of Manu actually handles the ball more than Parker..Ginobili has been much better than TP this season due to TP's injuries and Manu playing at an unreal level, but they control the ball about the same amount and they get around the same amount of assists in this role..



As for being predictable, ya, I'd say the Spurs become predictable sometimes..does it matter? no, not really..this is the NBA..these teams all have tape and review them before every game..in the playoffs, they study it hard..every team knows what the other team is going to do..this isn't football..

The Lakers ran pick and rolls on every other play in last year's playoffs, it doesn't mean the other team can stop it..the NBA is a lot more free-flowing than any other sport, the talent >>>> the play calling..



People are imagining certain things with the Spurs current resurgence..Manu is clearly the primary reason for the Spurs current success..the ball movement isn't much different, the numbers agree..Manu is just playing at an extremely high level, similar to TP last year, and he's carrying the team..Manu's improvement has absolutely nothing to do with Tony Parker..Manu struggled earlier in the season, even while coming off the bench, for various reasons that he himself touched on..

Jefferson's assisted numbers aren't much different with TP out of the lineup..he's clearly fitting in better with the team and has taken more responsibility with TP out..he's creating some of his own offense and he's rebounding/defending a lot better..TP has nothing to do with that..




The defense has been better with Tony Parker on the floor this season, the numbers agree, so I don't need to speak on that..



There is a concern with how Pop will use Tony, since Manu is on such a hot streak, so we'll see how Pop utilizes Parker..limiting Manu's touches a little more might hurt, but it could also help avoid more wear and tear on him, so we'll see..that's the only concern though..Parker's style has had nothing to do with the Spurs current hot streak, the numbers agree..

[Cry Havoc]

Its not about Parker or Hill, its about ball movement and team play. With it, we are contenders. Without it, we are lost.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because the Spurs have never won with Parker, Manu, and Duncan on the floor together before. I wonder how many other fans would give one of their testicles/ovaries to be able to say, "Oh yeah, that's our stale THREE-PRONGED attack that's good for 65 points, 20 rebounds, and 15 assists per game, while scoring at around 50%."

[DesignatedT]

:tu harlem

[Parker2112]

Yeah, that makes sense. Because the Spurs have never won with Parker, Manu, and Duncan on the floor together before. I wonder how many other fans would give one of their testicles/ovaries to be able to say, "Oh yeah, that's our stale THREE-PRONGED attack that's good for 65 points, 20 rebounds, and 15 assists per game, while scoring at around 50%."

Sorry I was unclear. Three pronged-attack means Parker Drive, Pick and roll, and three pointer.

[Parker2112]

Well, shit. They better burn this whole mother down if that's the case.
I liked the post. You made some decent arguments. Although nothing new was said and I think the big picture tends to get lost in all this over-analysis.
I really like the anti-establishment tone. The same people who trashed you are the same lackeys who are tripping over their dicks to congratulate Timvp on whatever new thread he posts and whether it's any good or not is irrelevant.
After Sequ"stat-padder"Spur's thread about how high-count posters deserve unearned respect from "noobs", this place seems about as sore as EricB's vagina. I am officially over the whole Spurstalk Old Boys Club.

You and I think alike sir.:toast

[weebo]

"I have 300 posts, but I'm a better fan than you. Trade Tony Parker. Pop Sucks. LJ and Kori are crap fans because they dared to take care of their baby."

What does post count have to do with fandom? Seriously, some people in here need to get off their high horse because they have an 'x' amount of post. Not everyone has the luxury of sitting in front of a computer posting a thousand times a day.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry I was unclear. Three pronged-attack means Parker Drive, Pick and roll, and three pointer.

How is that such a bad thing? It's not like Parker MUST AT ALL TIMES initiate our offense. He did it last year because Manu was banged up and Tim was being saved for later in the year, and he did it as effectively as any point guard in the NBA ever has, really. How many guys under, say, 6'6" shoot 50%?

Parker is deadly because you have to counter him by moving a man over in the lane. He initiates contact, and gets fouls (not as often as he should, but still) and he finds ways to score.

I suspect that if Parker was 100% this year there would be no debating. Spurs fans have perhaps the poorest memories of anyone in the NBA. There were times last year when Tony was in the MVP discussion. This year, he should, according to some, play backup to a average PG.

It's really not Parker's fault that when he drives and kicks, our guys clang shots. It's not his fault that Manu waited until NOW to become superman again. Parker and Manu destroyed the media darling Suns in 2005 by themselves. It's baffling to me that suddenly some fans think that Tony stifles our offense.

If Manu had played like he has all year with Tony on the court (to say nothing of HEALTHY), this team would be looking at 60+ wins, not 50. We'd also be a top 3 seed.

So because Manu was playing poorly earlier in the season, should we have given his PT to someone else like Bogans or Mason, on the assumption that Manu was taking FG attempts away from higher % shooters at the time?

[IceColdBrewski]

Can you give me the cliff notes of what you said?

The team plays better without Tony.

[Parker2112]

Overall, solid response, but...


As for the point with more ball movement without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 22.5
APG with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 22.1

There isn't much of a difference at all..shit, I thought it would be more than this, since teams often rely on more ball movement when one of their star players go out, since you generally can't make up for the talent of a star....

Small increase, but that may speak volumes when it is your ALL-STAR POINT GUARD that is out. Logic would say a major drop here...

Plus ball movement helps get the defense out of position and create lanes to attack just as easily as it creates easy shot opportunities. How many times have we seen the ball swing around the court and then find George or RJ or Manu with a lane to the bucket, but no assist since they drove to the hole? Just sayin.


As for the Spurs getting easier shots and being less reliant on 3s without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG at the rim with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 8.3
APG at the rim with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 8.1

APG leading to 3-pointers with TP out of the lineup: 6.1
With TP out: 5.9

I would like to see 3 pt attempts before and after Tony's injury. And also, George Hill adds another three point shooter at the point, so this doesnt account for having more shooters on the court with Tony out. Duh.


This season's version of Manu actually handles the ball more than Parker..Ginobili has been much better than TP this season due to TP's injuries and Manu playing at an unreal level, but they control the ball about the same amount and they get around the same amount of assists in this role..

Huge difference here...Manu is constantly pushing...TP waits for TD to get set, while letting the D get set as well. Watch with your eyes, not numbers.


As for being predictable, ya, I'd say the Spurs become predictable sometimes..does it matter? no, not really..this is the NBA..these teams all have tape and review them before every game..in the playoffs, they study it hard..every team knows what the other team is going to do..this isn't football

The Lakers ran pick and rolls on every other play in last year's playoffs, it doesn't mean the other team can stop it..the NBA is a lot more free-flowing than any other sport, the talent >>>> the play calling....

We are older, and less imposing. Our young studs have yet to be able to take over, and our stars, outside of Manu, can't force the outcome either. We clearly have not been unstoppable in any facet, so I think our gameplan needs to adjust accordingly, from the one that won us championships to one that gets everyone involved.




People are imagining certain things with the Spurs current resurgence..Manu is clearly the primary reason for the Spurs current success..the ball movement isn't much different, the numbers agree..Manu is just playing at an extremely high level, similar to TP last year, and he's carrying the team.... obviously...


Manu's improvement has absolutely nothing to do with Tony Parker.... right again


Manu struggled earlier in the season, even while coming off the bench, for various reasons that he himself touched on.... yes


Jefferson's assisted numbers aren't much different with TP out of the lineup..he's clearly fitting in better with the team and has taken more responsibility with TP out..he's creating some of his own offense and he's rebounding/defending a lot better..TP has nothing to do with that.... WRONG. RJ was uninvolved for the vast majority of the season. PG dictates who gets the ball and where. Moreover, we now see that when RJ gets involved he can at least produce intangibles. So IMO, TP should have gotten him more touches early on. And the system that Pop used, the one that turns everyone who is not TP or TD into bystander, is the real culprit here. TP can get guys comfortable in the game. He didn't really do that with RJ. Right or wrong, the two are tied, and RJ is producing for us even if his points are not there.





The defense has been better with Tony Parker on the floor this season, the numbers agree, so I don't need to speak on that.... How can you even say some stupid shit like this? We DIDNT EVEN PLAY DEFENSE THIS YEAR UNTIL PARKER HIT THE PINE. Numbers or not. Our team had its head so far up its ass on defense, most spurs fans couldnt bear to watch.




There is a concern with how Pop will use Tony, since Manu is on such a hot streak, so we'll see how Pop utilizes Parker..limiting Manu's touches a little more might hurt, but it could also help avoid more wear and tear on him, so we'll see..that's the only concern though..Parker's style has had nothing to do with the Spurs current hot streak, the numbers agree.. Let Manu do his thing. Fuck al this conservation. Your numbers lie.

[benefactor]

I'm calling bullshit. On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all)
Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention whore?

[Parker2112]

How is that such a bad thing? It's not like Parker MUST AT ALL TIMES initiate our offense. He did it last year because Manu was banged up and Tim was being saved for later in the year, and he did it as effectively as any point guard in the NBA ever has, really. How many guys under, say, 6'6" shoot 50%?

Parker is deadly because you have to counter him by moving a man over in the lane. He initiates contact, and gets fouls (not as often as he should, but still) and he finds ways to score.

I suspect that if Parker was 100% this year there would be no debating. Spurs fans have perhaps the poorest memories of anyone in the NBA. There were times last year when Tony was in the MVP discussion. This year, he should, according to some, play backup to a average PG.

It's really not Parker's fault that when he drives and kicks, our guys clang shots.

I think Parker should play 1st string shooting guard for the record. I think he should be a weapon but not the QB.

As for clanging shots, I hate living and dying by the three. Thats why I get so frustrated with the three-prong attack. If captain jack were here, that might be different. We dont have heart on the perimeter for the most part.

[ohmwrecker]

Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention whore?

I thought he had a pretty plausible explanation for that. I see both sides really . . . isn't everybody here an attention whore on some level?

[ChumpDumper]

So Manu played the exact same all year, right?

He's been the sole constant in this equation, hasn't he?

[benefactor]

I thought he had a pretty plausible explanation for that.
Not really, but whatever.

[raspsa]

My main beef about the Spurs these past seasons is that I thought they were becoming too predictable. I like what the infusion of new talent has given the team. Its a fine balance that Pop has to achieve, build on what has worked in the past but realize that changes have to be made as well.

[ohmwrecker]

Not really, but whatever.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not condoning it. I don't even agree with the premise, but . . . What was I saying? Oh, yeah . . . I guess I understand where he's coming from. The kid's got moxie, I tell ya!

[Obstructed_View]

What does post count have to do with fandom? Seriously, some people in here need to get off their high horse because they have an 'x' amount of post. Not everyone has the luxury of sitting in front of a computer posting a thousand times a day.

Sorry, but if someone's going to point out that they're a better fan than others for whatever reasons they decide are important, why can't someone else do it? How is post count on this message board any more or less valid than any of the other reasons someone cites when questioning the fandom of a team?

And you sound awfully bitter about the people who post more than you do. Are you sure it isn't important? :lol

[Parker2112]

Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention whore?

You can't make a post as long as the OP and expect anyone to give a fuck by page 4. Its not about attention. Its about making my point. My post was everything Timvp told me it needed to be...it was more than a comment. It was a complete argument, making point after point, and something that could prompt a discussion completely different from one that would otherwise happen in Timvp's post. Dont be so simple minded as to believe that just because it was in response to Timvp's post meant it had to be included there.

Is that good enough for you? If not, tell us what constitutes something worthy of a new post?

And then when your done, realize that is your opinion and take it for what its worth.

[FkLA]

Parker fanboys are funny, seriously. Even if Parker were playing like last season this team's offense is still not efficient as it was with George at the point and Manu orchestrating the offense. It isnt a matter of health, its a matter of TP's style of play...a guy like Blair doesnt play much better with Manu because of coincedence and a guy like RJ didnt magically turn his season around out of the blue. Parker simply doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis, he is a scoring PG and an average orchestrator of the offense. Healthy or not thats his game.

[elbamba]

How exactly does the number of posts on a spurs fan site = how true of a spurs fan a person really is? My family had season tickets since the Spurs came to SA. When I returned to SA I had tickets until I moved away. Since League Pass I have never missed a Spurs game unless it was blacked out. However, I don't have 10,000 posts and I did not post a whole hell of a lot the past 3 months, I guess this makes me an untrue fan?

[Mel_13]

WRONG. RJ was uninvolved for the vast majority of the season. PG dictates who gets the ball and where. Moreover, we now see that when RJ gets involved he can at least produce intangibles. So IMO, TP should have gotten him more touches early on. And the system that Pop used, the one that turns everyone who is not TP or TD into bystander, is the real culprit here. TP can get guys comfortable in the game. He didn't really do that with RJ. Right or wrong, the two are tied, and RJ is producing for us even if his points are not there.

No, you're wrong.

Think about RJ's three point play in the 4th quarter last night. Manu passed the ball to RJ who was wide open for the corner 3. Earlier this season, he would have taken that shot. Last night he didn't shoot the 3. He drove into the lane and got the basket and the foul.

Tony didn't prevent him from doing the same thing earlier in the season nor did the system. What has changed is RJ's mindset as he's become more assertive and less passive as the season has progressed. Whether he receives that pass in the corner from Tony or Manu, it is his decision whether to shoot or drive.

[FkLA]

RJ himself said playing alongside Manu was similar to his days playing alongside Jason Kidd. Think about that, thats a pretty big compliment and speaks volumes about how comfortable not just RJ is but several other players are with Manu running the show. Parker simply doesnt radiate that, he doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis...so sure RJ becoming more agressive has helped him play better but that is in large thanks to playing alongside Manu. His confidence looked shot early in the season, I dont think magically and out of the blue he turned that around.

[DesignatedT]

RJ himself said playing alongside Manu was similar to his days playing alongside Jason Kidd. Think about that, thats a pretty big compliment and speaks volumes about how comfortable not just RJ is but several other players are with Manu running the show. Parker simply doesnt radiate that, he doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis...so sure RJ becoming more agressive has helped him play better but that is in large thanks to playing alongside Manu. His confidence looked shot early in the season, I dont think magically and out of the blue he turned that around.

his move to strictly the 3 position was right around when tony went out also. of course rj wasn't as comfortable out there. pop had him playing the 4 every game. remember?

RJ is a much different player than he was in the beginning of the season and I dont think thats because of Manu... Hes more aggressive, Hes more familiar with the system and He is showing a lot more confidence.

Im not saying that He doesnt play well with manu because he does just as many other players do but he didn't suck in the beginning of the year because of tony. thats just unfair to say.

[Parker2112]

No, you're wrong.

Think about RJ's three point play in the 4th quarter last night. Manu passed the ball to RJ who was wide open for the corner 3. Earlier this season, he would have taken that shot. Last night he didn't shoot the 3. He drove into the lane and got the basket and the foul.

Tony didn't prevent him from doing the same thing earlier in the season nor did the system. What has changed is RJ's mindset as he's become more assertive and less passive as the season has progressed. Whether he receives that pass in the corner from Tony or Manu, it is his decision whether to shoot or drive.

Your missing the logical flow of cause and effect here.

RJ, new and learning the system, never being incorporated by our PG or our coach, and not being able to find a place for himself in the offense equals RJ with doubt and hesitation...who will not drive when he is able.

VS

RJ who gets touches from Manu's ball flow offense, building his confidence and his comfort level on the court means he takes the opportunity without hesitation. Confidence is required in the split second decision-making of pros. Confidence makes players and breaks players. And Manu's tendency to get more people touches breeds confidence, and puts guys like RJ in attack mode vs. on their heels.

You may think its as easy as talent, but most of the pro game is mental. Tons of guys have the talent and never play in the pros. Confidence is key. Manu has helped the confidence of RJ and Blair tons. That is the intangible thing he brings to our team. Parker facilitates high percentage offense and Timmy's game, but guys will only excel with Parker (as he has run it in the past) if they can consistently knock down the jumper. ANd we dont have those types of guys.

[Parker2112]

his move to strictly the 3 position was right around when tony went out also. of course rj wasn't as comfortable out there. pop had him playing the 4 every game. remember?

RJ is a much different player than he was in the beginning of the season and I dont think thats because of Manu... Hes more aggressive, Hes more familiar with the system and He is showing a lot more confidence.

Im not saying that He doesnt play well with manu because he does just as many other players do but he didn't suck in the beginning of the year because of tony. thats just unfair to say.

With Tony, RJ was catching passes behind the three point line. If anyone was driving to the hole, that was tony. RJ as a 3 point specialist is a waste of 10 mil a year.

[DesignatedT]

With Tony, RJ was catching passes behind the three point line. If anyone was driving to the hole, that was tony. RJ as a 3 point specialist is a waste of 10 mil a year.

ok.

[ChumpDumper]

RJ was forbidden from driving when Parker was playing.

Pop had it written down.

[Parker2112]

ok.


RJ was forbidden from driving when Parker was playing.

Pop had it written down.

How are you going to drive when TP has already collapsed the D? You take the shot. RJ is not a great shooter. Pop's scheme was limited by the personell. And you guys suck.

[ChumpDumper]

How are you going to drive when TP has already collapsed the D? You take the shot. RJ is not a great shooter. Pop's scheme was limited by the personell.Not really.


And you guys suck.Quality post.

[Mel_13]

Your missing the logical flow of cause and effect here.

RJ, new and learning the system, never being incorporated by our PG or our coach, and not being able to find a place for himself in the offense equals RJ with doubt and hesitation...who will not drive when he is able.

VS

RJ who gets touches from Manu's ball flow offense, building his confidence and his comfort level on the court means he takes the opportunity without hesitation. Confidence is required in the split second decision-making of pros. Confidence makes players and breaks players. And Manu's tendency to get more people touches breeds confidence, and puts guys like RJ in attack mode vs. on their heels.

You may think its as easy as talent, but most of the pro game is mental. Tons of guys have the talent and never play in the pros. Confidence is key. Manu has helped the confidence of RJ and Blair tons. That is the intangible thing he brings to our team. Parker facilitates high percentage offense and Timmy's game, but guys will only excel with Parker (as he has run it in the past) if they can consistently knock down the jumper. ANd we dont have those types of guys.

For the sake of argument, let's assume all this is true. We'll assume that RJ's confidence level is much improved largely as a result of Manu's tendencies.

Going forward, why is RJ less likely to be assertive and aggressive when receiving a pass from Tony than receiving the same pass in the same spot on the court from Manu?

Having gained all this confidence, are you trying to make the case that he will lose it by spending time on the court with Tony?

[GSH]

Bottom line, less Parker has meant more Manu - and Manu has been absolutely kicking ass. It's not that the team is better without Parker on the floor, it's that they are better when Manu is kicking ass.

If having Hill on the floor made the team better, you would see SOMETHING in the stats to indicate it. The team's % of assisted field goals would be better, the team's effective FG% would be better when Hill is on the floor... something. But the numbers aren't there.

Probably the best stats to look at are the team's Effective FG% and Assisted FG%:

When Parker leaves the floor, the team's EFG% stays about the same. When Hill leaves the floor, it actually gets a little bit higher. When Manu leaves the floor, the team EFG% drops quite a bit.

When Hill leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down a small amount. When Parker leaves the floor, it goes up a little bit. When Manu leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down A LOT.

More assists and higher EFG% mean the team is scoring more easily and more efficiently. Hill is doing a good job of filling Parker's shoes. But when Manu is on the floor, he makes everyone better.

If there is any concern about Parker, it's that his FG attempts per 36 minutes are way down this season, but his AST per 36 minutes aren't up. The problem is, you don't know if that's because he isn't distributing the ball as effectively, or because other players are missing too many open shots.

[Parker2112]

For the sake of argument, let's assume all this is true. We'll assume that RJ's confidence level is much improved largely as a result of Manu's tendencies.

Going forward, why is RJ less likely to be assertive and aggressive when receiving a pass from Tony than receiving the same pass in the same spot on the court from Manu?

Having gained all this confidence, are you trying to make the case that he will lose it by spending time on the court with Tony?

Tony and Manu dont facilitate in the same way, so its rarely the same pass. Manu can pass into the teeth of the defense with great results, while Tony is usually passing out of the teeth of the defense, relying on the shooter for results.

I dont think RJ will lose it, but the danger of playing with tony is that players watch tony and wait. Honestly I could swear that there is tons less movement with tony on the court, which would have to be by design. Thats why I say Pop's gameplan has been our shortcoming this year.

[Parker2112]

Bottom line, less Parker has meant more Manu - and Manu has been absolutely kicking ass. It's not that the team is better without Parker on the floor, it's that they are better when Manu is kicking ass.

If having Hill on the floor made the team better, you would see SOMETHING in the stats to indicate it. The team's % of assisted field goals would be better, the team's effective FG% would be better when Hill is on the floor... something. But the numbers aren't there.

Probably the best stats to look at are the team's Effective FG% and Assisted FG%:

When Parker leaves the floor, the team's EFG% stays about the same. When Hill leaves the floor, it actually gets a little bit higher. When Manu leaves the floor, the team EFG% drops quite a bit.

When Hill leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down a small amount. When Parker leaves the floor, it goes up a little bit. When Manu leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down A LOT.

More assists and higher EFG% mean the team is scoring more easily and more efficiently. Hill is doing a good job of filling Parker's shoes. But when Manu is on the floor, he makes everyone better.



I can buy this use of stats 1000% more than I can follow Timvps use of stats

[Parker2112]

Not really.

Quality post.

Recognize sarcasm. Your take on the first part?

[ChumpDumper]

Recognize sarcasm.You first.
Your take on the first part?You already got it.

[Mel_13]

Tony and Manu dont facilitate in the same way, so its rarely the same pass. Manu can pass into the teeth of the defense with great results, while Tony is usually passing out of the teeth of the defense, relying on the shooter for results.

I dont think RJ will lose it, but the danger of playing with tony is that players watch tony and wait. Honestly I could swear that there is tons less movement with tony on the court, which would have to be by design. Thats why I say Pop's gameplan has been our shortcoming this year.

I don't see the same danger that you do, but I'll leave your thread alone.

[Parker2112]

You first. hah.


You already got it. oh.

[shingo_318]

:nope

I'm calling bullshit. On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all:p:).

First, the offense with Tony is usually directed in one of a few ways: pick and roll, drive to the cup, kick out for three, or Tony jumpshot.

Without Tony, as we have all seen, we have ball movement...side to side, front to back, on the break...guys aren't looking at Tony to see what his next move is going to be. They are making moves without the ball, making passes, not waiting to see if Tony is going to kick to them or not.

With Tony, we live and die with Tony, Tim and the long ball.


What the stats don't show (and why Timvp's analysis fails) is the reason this team is gelling now, after Tony goes down. Other guys have joined the effort. We are playing like a team... not just on offense but on defense as well (good defense follows confidence and trust, which follows team play on offense). Guys aren't standing around waiting for Tony's cue, they are attacking the other team, with or without the ball. How do you quantify this in the stats? You can't. At least not very well.

But lets try at least..so how about measuring our play by... the play of the team (odd concept!)? We wandered aimlessly all season, then when Tony goes down we find a team gelling on both ends of the floor. Excuses, justifications, stats, etc wont hide the realities of this season. But I believe we must learn from this to contend THIS YEAR.

IMO, when Tony is in the game, we have a 50% chance of getting a one-and-done, whether that's a TP jumper, a TD jumper or drive with no foul, a TP drive with no foul call and Tony on his butt, or a kick out to guys on the 3 that we can't trust (outside of Manu and Bonner). That kills runs, it kills other player's involvement, they dont get touches and they go cold. It kills easy shot opportunities. It makes games harder to win, and creates wear and tear on our old guys.

Stats to support? How about Pop not being able to rest TD this season after we play shitty ball all year, so shitty that most Spurs fans turn their back and walk away from the scene? How many back to backs has TD rested? I blame that on the lack of production from our role players (obvious point).

Without Tony, we have done a much better job of getting good shots because the ball is moving and so is our squad. The old offense (yes, the one that won championships) is stale, and like it or not, teams like Dallas and L.A. hope that we show up with that stale three-pronged attack. Contenders will let us win one or two in a series with hot three point shooting, and flame out overall because, as we have shown, we dont have perimeter killers who can sustain the effort over seven games.

On the other hand, they hope we don't move the ball, catching them off guard, finding Blair/Tim/Dice/RJ/Bogans right under the bucket. That is what we have been doing, and we have been beating title contenders...

...without Tony you say???? Gasp!!! You mean team play CAN overcome long odds??? You mean guys playing for each other CAN contend??? As Spurs fans, I thought that fact was a given for us all...

But blaming Tony is not the answer...Blame the stale three pronged attack!!!!

This gameplan is the product of years of championship success. It worked for years, but when other teams began to have success against it (or better yet age caught Timmy), and (most important) when our defense dwindled, we should have come up with something new.

Our downfall was that we simply continued to go to the well, even after it was obvious that there wasnt even enough in that approach to beat average teams, holding our hat in our hands and hoping it would come back.

It almost cost us the season. I blame Pop for this. There were times in past seasons when this team wanted Tony to be in constant attack mode. Tony attacked so much last year, he was gassed late in the season and in most 4th quarters. This was Pop's call.

But THIS YEAR, we needed help for Tim. We needed to integrate new faces. We needed other guys to earn their money. And when Tony went down, and MORE IMPORTANTLY when Pop was driven away from the well for 20 games, we did just that. No stats required. We beat contenders. That's what counts. The point is obvious. And in my estimation, Tony's play last night in Sacto shows that both he and Pop are trying to sustain things as they developed during his absence, not clog them up by going back to a dry well.

So the big question: NOW WHAT?
This team needs Tony to: 1) facilitate ball movement, not assists or point production OR TIMMY (TD can fend for himself)... and 2) attack the basket, but without calling his own number. If it's there it's there. If not, keep the ball moving.

Pop is the master of the Spurs attack each and every night, so if this happens it will be because he demanded it. And for what it's worth to all you Tony fanboys/girlss, I believe Tony will do what is asked from him to benefit the team.

One more time for the thumb.
:lobt2:
:toast:toast

[lennyalderette]

just take a look at what happens when you put tony on a top pg tonight tonys letting nash put it in his arsss w/out lube!!!!! you so called wise posters are just stubborn and wont admit he hurts in the team if hes not outscoring the opposing pg

[Cry Havoc]

So the entire point of this thread is that the Spurs are a better team when Manu is beasting?

[benefactor]

You can't make a post as long as the OP and expect anyone to give a fuck by page 4. Its not about attention. Its about making my point. My post was everything Timvp told me it needed to be...it was more than a comment. It was a complete argument, making point after point, and something that could prompt a discussion completely different from one that would otherwise happen in Timvp's post. Dont be so simple minded as to believe that just because it was in response to Timvp's post meant it had to be included there.

Is that good enough for you? If not, tell us what constitutes something worthy of a new post?

And then when your done, realize that is your opinion and take it for what its worth.
Translation: I'm an attention whore. Moving on.

[Obstructed_View]

How exactly does the number of posts on a spurs fan site = how true of a spurs fan a person really is? My family had season tickets since the Spurs came to SA. When I returned to SA I had tickets until I moved away. Since League Pass I have never missed a Spurs game unless it was blacked out. However, I don't have 10,000 posts and I did not post a whole hell of a lot the past 3 months, I guess this makes me an untrue fan?

So the measure of how good a Spurs fan someone is has to be based on your criteria and yours alone then, right?

[elbamba]

So the measure of how good a Spurs fan someone is has to be based on your criteria and yours alone then, right?

Not at all. I have no criteria, especially not some stupid arbitrary theory like how many times I have posted on an internet fan site, to determine what is a true Spurs fan. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy ST. I just don't think that I will ever get to 25,000 posts, nor do I care if I ever do.

However, if you feel that a post count makes you more of a fan than me, I will gladly concede the point. Congratulations.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Those who are just insulting this guy for posting this are ridiculous. He actually has some points to consider.

His post count doesn't mean shit - this could easily be someone who's been reading this forum for 5 years who never had the will to post anything until now.

Having 10,000 posts doesn't mean shit. Doesn't mean you know anything about BB or that you are smart in any way. It only means for sure you have spent a lot of time in this place. That can be implied. Nothing else.

Also, timvp doesn't need anyone to come to his D.

Put your cock back in your pants and contribute rather than destroy.

[Obstructed_View]

Not at all. I have no criteria, especially not some stupid arbitrary theory like how many times I have posted on an internet fan site, to determine what is a true Spurs fan. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy ST. I just don't think that I will ever get to 25,000 posts, nor do I care if I ever do.

However, if you feel that a post count makes you more of a fan than me, I will gladly concede the point. Congratulations.

If you feel that your family buying tickets and you getting LP every year makes you a better fan than everyone else, then power to you. I guess post count isn't an arbitrary measurement of fandom that meets your high standards, and I apologize for offending your "super fan" sensibilities by pointing out how stupid it is for one person to try to measure another's fandom, because it's clearly struck a nerve with you, yet you still fail to get the point.

[elbamba]

If you feel that your family buying tickets and you getting LP every year makes you a better fan than everyone else, then power to you. I guess post count isn't an arbitrary measurement of fandom that meets your high standards, and I apologize for offending your "super fan" sensibilities by pointing out how stupid it is for one person to try to measure another's fandom, because it's clearly struck a nerve with you, yet you still fail to get the point.

Apparently we are arguing the same point and yet misunderstanding each other.

[benefactor]

Those who are just insulting this guy for posting this are ridiculous. He actually has some points to consider.

His post count doesn't mean shit - this could easily be someone who's been reading this forum for 5 years who never had the will to post anything until now.

Having 10,000 posts doesn't mean shit. Doesn't mean you know anything about BB or that you are smart in any way. It only means for sure you have spent a lot of time in this place. That can be implied. Nothing else.

Also, timvp doesn't need anyone to come to his D.

Put your cock back in your pants and contribute rather than destroy.
He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

I'm calling bullshit. On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all).

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

[Cane]

He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of shit was "normal".

:lol

[Parker2112]

He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

You left out the:lol. It was supposed to incite people to read my OP while simultaneously allowing me to make fun of my opinionated stance. Evidently you didnt see that as ironic self-depricating humor.

As for the whore thing, nearly all the posts on the first page of this board could be condensed into about five posts: Spurs suck, Spurs rock, trade ideas, tony sucks, and leave tony alone. Its just never gonna happen.

By your logic every one of the posters who could have included their post into another is an attention whore. You are missing the big picture son (Louisiana-flavored Spurstalk related humor intended).

[Parker2112]

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of shit was "normal".

:lol

owned:lol

[benefactor]

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of shit was "normal".

:lol
No, I didn't. I said this:

I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be competitive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.
I also said that the decision should be in Duncan's hands as he has earned that right. I also never said buyout out players was normal. I said that starting over is normal and teams that hang on too long wind up like the Jazz did in the early 2000's...they become teams with no clear direction.


You left out the:lol. It was supposed to incite people to read my OP while simultaneously allowing me to make fun of my opinionated stance. Evidently you didnt see that as ironic self-depricating humor.

Umm...what?


As for the whore thing, nearly all the posts on the first page of this board could be condensed into about five posts: Spurs suck, Spurs rock, trade ideas, tony sucks, and leave tony alone. Its just never gonna happen.

So you are saying you sunk to their level. I once again stand affirmed.


By your logic every one of the posters who could have included their post into another is an attention whore. You are missing the big picture son (Louisiana-flavored Spurstalk related humor intended).
Well, sort of. Some don't see a thread about something else on the first page and are too lazy to see if a discussion about it has been started, so they just start another thread. You, OTOH, started another discussion about something that was already right in front of you and admitted that you didn't even care to read all the takes in that discussion before starting your own about the exact same thing. :downspin:

[Cane]

No, I didn't. I said this:

I also said that the decision should be in Duncan's hands as he has earned that right. I also never said buyout out players was normal. I said that starting over is normal and teams that hang on too long wind up like the Jazz did in the early 2000's...they become teams with no clear direction.






I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be competitive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.




Its dumbass trolling to suggest that the Spurs should buyout Duncan or to say that he's done to the point where the Spurs should just lay over and give up entirely. And yea that is an "opinion" I suppose.



There is a time when giving up and starting over is necessary. Teams that don't look like Utah did in the early 2000's...and that's where the Spurs are headed. I'm not suggesting anything that hasn't been done many times in NBA history.


Let's face reality here...Tim Duncan is done. He's done. He had played like 18 minutes before the beginning of the 4th and could not carry the team past the Nets. The night before he only played 26 minutes.

What's the point in trying again? I've said this before but it's looking more and more like a reality...the Spurs are dangerously close to becoming the early 2000's Utah Jazz. They should let Manu go and trade RJ for straight expirings. I don't even care if they get a decent draft pick in return. They should probably think about getting whatever value they can get for Parker also. I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be competitive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.


this is just such a stupid, pessimistic thread. probably the most bafflingly stupid i've read on ST in recent memory.

i can't get over why anyone would want to give up on a team that has three top-5 players at their respective positions, much less right after a loss to NJ, in which they could've won if Manu played.

Manu is playing like the second best SG in the league, and TP was considered top-3 last year, and an MVP candidate. they both score at an amazingly goof rate - probably the best for their position.
and Duncan is still a top-5 pf.

this team just beat the best team in the league, a great team in Boston, when toe-to-toe with Atlanta on their court, and were in it against LA for much of the 4th - ALL WITHOUT A PLAYER MANY CONSIDER TO BE THE BEST ON THIS TEAM IN TP.

Christ's sake.

You're technically right but you were implying and insinuating that buying out players such as Duncan is normal and that the Spurs should give up entirely.

You made an attention whoring, dumbass topic and got called out on it. Here it is: http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4195907#post4195907 Now you're trying to play that card against the OP who basically did what you did except only focused on Parker rather than the whole team.

High horses must be nice ;)

[Parker2112]

Umm...what?

I was making fun of my own this-is-a-thread-by-a-dick-poster intro.

But as for Timvp's thread, I couldnt read it any further after about the fourth handjobber for Timvp...:jack I think his take on the Spurs is skewed hard and I find it ridiculous that no one calls him on it.

Reality is Timvp's posts are always followed by pages of mindless handjobs :jack, which ironically follow Timvp's mandatory TP handjob :jack, and I'm not much for watchin' a guy get a handjob:jack, whether he is a Spur or a Spurstalk celebrity.

[Parker2112]

And if you didnt catch any of that, then you can :jack me.

[Parker2112]

Don't worry I won't watch.

[benefactor]

You're technically right but you were implying and insinuating that buying out players such as Duncan is normal and that the Spurs should give up entirely.


Once again...no I didn't and not I wasn't. Please quote me where I said buying out players is normal.

[benefactor]

I was making fun of my own this-is-a-thread-by-a-dick-poster intro.

But as for Timvp's thread, I couldnt read it any further after about the fourth handjobber for Timvp...:jack I think his take on the Spurs is skewed hard and I find it ridiculous that no one calls him on it.

You could have called him out in his own thread, but what's the point in that?


Reality is Timvp's posts are always followed by pages of mindless handjobs :jack, which ironically follow Timvp's mandatory TP handjob :jack, and I'm not much for watchin' a guy get a handjob:jack, whether he is a Spur or a Spurstalk celebrity.
Interesting. Your tone reeks of jealousy. Is there something going on in your life where you are not getting enough affirmation? People not taking your ideas seriously?

[ohmwrecker]

The problem with calling out Benefactor on that thread is that he contradicted himself so much that he can always go back and quote himself to support any argument to the contrary. I want to like the guy, but he keeps proving himself to be a condescending, self-aggrandizing jackass. Plus, I think he is a closet Mavs fan.

[Parker2112]

You could have called him out in his own thread, but what's the point in that? I've done it tons of times. Check my record. We have gone back and forth for pages.



Interesting. Your tone reeks of jealousy. Is there something going on in your life where you are not getting enough affirmation? People not taking your ideas seriously? I see how you might think that, but its actually more of a driving need to root out untruths and exposing bias. Timvp's opinions become the opinion of this board to a large degree, and they are fatally flawed/skewed, as they come through the eyes of a fan who could care less as long as parker shines (IMO). In Timvp's eyes, the only way we can win is with parker at point.

Ive seen players come and go, and we still win championships; i know better. Dont get me wrong, parker can be a huge offensive weapon, but he cannot make those around him better and that is what we need. Timvp's entitled to his take, Parker-bias and all, but the unadulterated truth (Parker as the initiator has run its course for our team) deserves its own thread like it or not. Not competing with the "parker is hurt" or the "parker is an allstar" or the "parker can do no wrong" comments...

I dont even have to be taken seriously (though like minded posters inevitably will), its simply a matter of getting the truth out there (parker is an all star, but for us he needs to be a SG). It will set us all free.

[benefactor]

The problem with calling out Benefactor on that thread is that he contradicted himself so much that he can always go back and quote himself to support any argument to the contrary. I want to like the guy, but he keeps proving himself to be a condescending, self-aggrandizing jackass. Plus, I think he is a closet Mavs fan.
Quotes to contradictions? I'm flattered that you follow me so closely.

[benefactor]

I've done it tons of times. Check my record. We have gone back and forth for pages.

Good for you. I guess that approach just wasn't getting you the attention you needed. Looks like I'm right after all.


I see how you might think that, but its actually more of a driving need to root out untruths and exposing bias. Timvp's opinions become the opinion of this board to a large degree, and they are fatally flawed/skewed, as they come through the eyes of a fan who could care less as long as parker shines (IMO). In Timvp's eyes, the only way we can win is with parker at point.

The old X-Files argument. One of my favorites. :tu


Ive seen players come and go, and we still win championships; i know better. Dont get me wrong, parker can be a huge offensive weapon, but he cannot make those around him better and that is what we need. Timvp's entitled to his take, Parker-bias and all, but the unadulterated truth (Parker as the initiator has run its course for our team) deserves its own thread like it or not. Not competing with the "parker is hurt" or the "parker is an allstar" or the "parker can do no wrong" comments...

It probably didn't, but whatever makes you feel important.


I dont even have to be taken seriously (though like minded posters inevitably will), its simply a matter of getting the truth out there (parker is an all star, but for us he needs to be a SG). It will set us all free.
And we will be free indeed.

[ohmwrecker]

Quotes to contradictions? I'm flattered that you follow me so closely.
You should be flattered. I am awesome and never wrong and if I am I would never admit it.

[Parker2112]

Benefactor your mind is made up... Think what you will. But I havent written anything here today that wasnt sincere.

And as for attention, I've been posting here for a couple of years now...now look over to the left at my post count. Does that look like the post count of an attention whore to you? Now :jack me.

[Obstructed_View]

Apparently we are arguing the same point and yet misunderstanding each other.

My point is that people shouldn't worry about other people's motivations for rooting for a team. If some dumbass comes in and says that people are bad fans for X reason, then they're opening the door for anyone to suggest that they're a bad fan for Y or Z reason. Since the vast majority of "you guys are bad fans" thread starters lately have a relatively small number of posts, it seems like postcount is the best way to show them how stupid they look.

If someone wants to completely avoid the Spurs during the regular season and then root like hell for them during the playoffs, why should anyone have a problem with that?

[Drachen]

Well, it sucks because he got exactly what he wanted attention for his whoring (yes I am culpable too), luckily he didn't get all that he wanted (five pages of http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/jack.gif )

[benefactor]

Well, it sucks because he got exactly what he wanted attention for his whoring (yes I am culpable too), luckily he didn't get all that he wanted (five pages of http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/jack.gif )
Yeah...I don't know why he kept asking me to do it. He must have an insatiable appetite.

[howbouthemspurs]

I thought it was Ginobili that got us back on track? Maybe I was wrong

[Parker2112]

Well, it sucks because he got exactly what he wanted attention for his whoring (yes I am culpable too), luckily he didn't get all that he wanted (five pages of :jack )


Yeah...I don't know why he kept asking me to do it. He must have an insatiable appetite.

tISh6tJKYW0

[benefactor]

tISh6tJKYW0
G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Parker2112]

fxv6R9fUO74

[Blackjack]

Stats Lie...the Well is Dry.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/08.21/photos/16-rose3-225.jpg

If you let this thread die ...

I'll provide an alibi.

[benefactor]

I hate to tell you this, but your sisters are going to be very dysfuctional adults. How long did you suck the udder?

[The Truth #6]

It was a good post. Lots of good points. I think he's done a good job defending his POV.

[Parker2112]

I hate to tell you this, but your sisters are going to be very dysfuctional adults. How long did you suck the udder?

I still enjoy the occasional suckle :lol That vid came up on the youtube menu after yours...I thought it was much more entertaining than either of us...as for my original vid I just wanted to share. You smarting?

[HarlemHeat37]

Small increase, but that may speak volumes when it is your ALL-STAR POINT GUARD that is out. Logic would say a major drop here...

A 0.4 difference isn't anything at all..

It doesn't mean anything..

The Spurs aren't moving the ball more..the difference is that Manu is controlling the ball more and he's playing at an extremely high level..Ginobili's usage % during this stretch has been much higher than Parker's usage % has been all year..it's not a bad thing at all, but the ball movement hasn't changed, as the 0.4 shows..


Plus ball movement helps get the defense out of position and create lanes to attack just as easily as it creates easy shot opportunities. How many times have we seen the ball swing around the court and then find George or RJ or Manu with a lane to the bucket, but no assist since they drove to the hole? Just sayin.

OK, but you have no proof that there has been a change in ball movement, it's just perception..nothing backs it up..


And also, George Hill adds another three point shooter at the point, so this doesnt account for having more shooters on the court with Tony out. Duh.

It doesn't matter..your point is that the Spurs rely on the 3-ball more when Tony Parker is in the lineup, this is clearly not true..I've already proven you wrong..

There's nothing wrong with taking 3-pointers if they're open shots, and the Spurs usually do get open looks..


Huge difference here...Manu is constantly pushing...TP waits for TD to get set, while letting the D get set as well. Watch with your eyes, not numbers.

Link?..



We are older, and less imposing. Our young studs have yet to be able to take over, and our stars, outside of Manu, can't force the outcome either. We clearly have not been unstoppable in any facet, so I think our gameplan needs to adjust accordingly, from the one that won us championships to one that gets everyone involved.

The Spurs are one of the top teams in the NBA at moving the ball..the APG number is high despite the pace, the assisted %s number is high for the Spurs, the A/T ratio is high for the Spurs..

The ball movement is great on this team..


WRONG. RJ was uninvolved for the vast majority of the season. PG dictates who gets the ball and where. Moreover, we now see that when RJ gets involved he can at least produce intangibles. So IMO, TP should have gotten him more touches early on. And the system that Pop used, the one that turns everyone who is not TP or TD into bystander, is the real culprit here. TP can get guys comfortable in the game. He didn't really do that with RJ. Right or wrong, the two are tied, and RJ is producing for us even if his points are not there.

Jefferson's usage % was 16 earlier in the first few months of the season..I complained about that and I said he should get more touches..he did, his usage% went up to about 18, and he still wasn't producing..he was settling for jump shots more often and he wasn't making shots in general..the stats back this up..

His usage% is about the same right now, and his assisted% is only 1 or 2% higher than it was when Parker went out of the lineup..

The argument isn't whether it's better to play with Manu or Tony..I'm sure Manu is more fun and easier to play with..it doesn't matter though, Parker had little to do with RJ's struggles, and it's just a cop out IMO..shit, Tony returned to the lineup and RJ still produced in these last 2 games..particularly in the game vs. Phoenix, where RJ received the ball and attacked the rim, getting multiple AND1 opportunities..

There's nothing that backs up the notion that Parker was the reason RJ struggled, nothing at all..



How can you even say some stupid shit like this? We DIDNT EVEN PLAY DEFENSE THIS YEAR UNTIL PARKER HIT THE PINE. Numbers or not. Our team had its head so far up its ass on defense, most spurs fans couldnt bear to watch.

The Spurs defense is 2 points better with Parker on the floor..

If I'm going to do what you do and just talk without any proof, I'll tell you what most Spurs fans here noticed, which was George Hill getting torched on a nightly basis for most of the 16-game stretch without Parker..


Let Manu do his thing. Fuck al this conservation. Your numbers lie.

Numbers don't lie in this case..


The only argument against Parker is that bringing him back will take touches away from Manu..that's not really what the OP is arguing though..I'm fine with Parker coming off the bench, I think he should..on the opposite side of the argument, you can say that Manu might wear down from having so much load, so having Parker back helps..

As for the argument that Parker's presence actually hurts the team, nothing backs that up, as I've shown..

The OP's post wasn't good, I don't know why some people think he made some good points..he didn't back anything up, he just spoke out of his ass..I could listen to it if he backed it up, but he didn't..

I could listen to it if his argument was simply that Parker takes away touches from Manu, so technically he could hurt the Spurs in that way, but that's not what he was saying either..

He's preaching about ball movement, but I've proven that nothing has changed significantly..the difference is that Manu is playing at an extremely high level..there's actually been more ball dominance in this stretch, like Parker dominated the ball last year..nobody complained about Parker doing it last year because he had to, just like nobody is complaining about Manu doing it this year, because we need him..

Spurs have improved because Manu is playing amazing, the D has improved(not because Parker is out, the Spurs D has played better with him in the lineup, as the stats show) and RJ is playing aggressively..

[Parker2112]

A 0.4 difference isn't anything at all..

It doesn't mean anything..

The Spurs aren't moving the ball more..the difference is that Manu is controlling the ball more and he's playing at an extremely high level..Ginobili's usage % during this stretch has been much higher than Parker's usage % has been all year..it's not a bad thing at all, but the ball movement hasn't changed, as the 0.4 shows..



OK, but you have no proof that there has been a change in ball movement, it's just perception..nothing backs it up..



It doesn't matter..your point is that the Spurs rely on the 3-ball more when Tony Parker is in the lineup, this is clearly not true..I've already proven you wrong..

There's nothing wrong with taking 3-pointers if they're open shots, and the Spurs usually do get open looks..



Link?..




The Spurs are one of the top teams in the NBA at moving the ball..the APG number is high despite the pace, the assisted %s number is high for the Spurs, the A/T ratio is high for the Spurs..

The ball movement is great on this team..



Jefferson's usage % was 16 earlier in the first few months of the season..I complained about that and I said he should get more touches..he did, his usage% went up to about 18, and he still wasn't producing..he was settling for jump shots more often and he wasn't making shots in general..the stats back this up..

His usage% is about the same right now, and his assisted% is only 1 or 2% higher than it was when Parker went out of the lineup..

The argument isn't whether it's better to play with Manu or Tony..I'm sure Manu is more fun and easier to play with..it doesn't matter though, Parker had little to do with RJ's struggles, and it's just a cop out IMO..shit, Tony returned to the lineup and RJ still produced in these last 2 games..particularly in the game vs. Phoenix, where RJ received the ball and attacked the rim, getting multiple AND1 opportunities..

There's nothing that backs up the notion that Parker was the reason RJ struggled, nothing at all..




The Spurs defense is 2 points better with Parker on the floor..

If I'm going to do what you do and just talk without any proof, I'll tell you what most Spurs fans here noticed, which was George Hill getting torched on a nightly basis for most of the 16-game stretch without Parker..



Numbers don't lie in this case..


The only argument against Parker is that bringing him back will take touches away from Manu..that's not really what the OP is arguing though..I'm fine with Parker coming off the bench, I think he should..on the opposite side of the argument, you can say that Manu might wear down from having so much load, so having Parker back helps..

As for the argument that Parker's presence actually hurts the team, nothing backs that up, as I've shown..

The OP's post wasn't good, I don't know why some people think he made some good points..he didn't back anything up, he just spoke out of his ass..I could listen to it if he backed it up, but he didn't..

I could listen to it if his argument was simply that Parker takes away touches from Manu, so technically he could hurt the Spurs in that way, but that's not what he was saying either..

He's preaching about ball movement, but I've proven that nothing has changed significantly..the difference is that Manu is playing at an extremely high level..there's actually been more ball dominance in this stretch, like Parker dominated the ball last year..nobody complained about Parker doing it last year because he had to, just like nobody is complaining about Manu doing it this year, because we need him..

Spurs have improved because Manu is playing amazing, the D has improved(not because Parker is out, the Spurs D has played better with him in the lineup, as the stats show) and RJ is playing aggressively..

Solid take. This post should make a "Best of" collection...seriously. I dont agree, but its gonna take some work to show your wrong. Please tell me where the best sites are to get sortable stats?...82 games sucks. Then I will tear you a new one, while simultaneously showing you that stats can be used to support damn near anything.

[Mark in Austin]

Ive seen players come and go, and we still win championships; i know better.


:lol Thank you, Jerry Krause.

[HarlemHeat37]

:blah

[benefactor]

lol

[MannyIsGod]

Crofl