Where will Bosh land?

[djohn2oo8]

Bosh: Done in Toronto? (http://spurstalk.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/20801400)

Chris Bosh (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/400537) is out for the rest of the regular season after undergoing surgery to repair a facial fracture suffered on the other end of an inadvertent elbow. No, you are not the only one wondering if the All-Star power forward has played his last game in Toronto.

First of all, the Raptors (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/TOR) will have a tough time making the playoffs without Bosh, so the remaining four games could be all that's left of their season. Of more concern is the fact that team executives I've spoken with recently continue to believe that Bosh is the most likely of the highly regarded free agents to change teams this summer.

Like LeBron James (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/400553) and Dwyane Wade (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/400578), Bosh signed his most recent extension with the intention of testing the unrestricted free agent market this summer; each has a player option for the 2010-11 season. All three turned have turned down extension offers since last summer, with Bosh the most recent prospective free agent to say no. The Raptors relayed an extension offer in January, and Bosh's position was that he wanted to play out the season and deal with the contract afterward.

Injury aside, Toronto's inability to make significant improvement this season despite the addition of free agent Hedo Turkoglu (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/196361) has frustrated Bosh to the point where people close to him believe he is the most motivated of the Big Three to seek a new address this summer. In all likelihood, the Raptors would try to accommodate his wishes via a sign-and-trade so they can avoid losing him and getting nothing in return.

It has been long speculated that Bosh, a Texas native, would seek a return to his home state. Conveniently, there are three teams located there, all of which might be enticed to explore a sign-and-trade. The Rockets (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/HOU) are in desperate need of star power, the Spurs (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/SA) are aging, and the Mavericks (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/DAL) are always game for splashy, big-ticket moves.

One thing's for sure: It's gotten a lot easier over the past 48 hours to imagine Bosh wearing another uniform next season.
http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/65838/20100408/2010_11_cap_could_be_higher_than_$54_million/

[Amarelooms]

Not sure I want him in Dallas....he always has been over-rated to me :elephant

[DesignatedT]

new york.

[Mel_13]

Miami

[TIMMYD!]

Miami, Wade isn't going anywhere.

[Kai]

None of these max-deal free agents will leave their teams without a sign & trade, which opens up the door for a lot of teams. You're giving up $30 million if you don't go that route. My gut tells me that Morey will make a very hard push for Bosh, or a Bosh-caliber player.

[Sisk]

My guess is the knicks

[sribb43]

i think the mavs will entertain a sign and trade with TOR if Bosh really pushes them to do a S&T. I think Damp's non guarenteed deal + expiring deal in Butler would get it done and if Dallas took back a bad contract.

Im not high on Bosh playing with Dirk bc both of their games begin at the mid-post

[djohn2oo8]

None of these max-deal free agents will leave their teams without a sign & trade, which opens up the door for a lot of teams. You're giving up $30 million if you don't go that route. My gut tells me that Morey will make a very hard push for Bosh, or a Bosh-caliber player.

Plus I read that the salary cap may not go down past 54 million, so he can add another piece even if he gets Bosh

[Andrew Bynum]

It'd be cool to see him on the Zombies.

[mogrovejo]

None of these max-deal free agents will leave their teams without a sign & trade, which opens up the door for a lot of teams. You're giving up $30 million if you don't go that route. My gut tells me that Morey will make a very hard push for Bosh, or a Bosh-caliber player.

Yeps. Can't say for sure, but you have 99% chances of being right.

[Kai]

Plus I read that the salary cap may not go down past 54 million, so he can add another piece even if he gets Bosh

At this point it doesn't matter what the salary cap is, the Rockets will be well above it. There is the MLE and LLE we can use, and that's it. I'm not sure we will be willing to use too much of either because we are guaranteed to pay Luxury tax after we re-sign Scola and Lowry, which Morey guaranteed he would. Unless it's a can't-miss opportunity, that is.

[djohn2oo8]

At this point it doesn't matter what the salary cap is, the Rockets will be well above it. There is the MLE and LLE we can use, and that's it. I'm not sure we will be willing to use too much of either because we are guaranteed to pay Luxury tax after we re-sign Scola and Lowry, which Morey guaranteed he would. Unless it's a can't-miss opportunity, that is.

Right. I wonder who would be worth the mid level?

[lefty]

Didnt he land on the floor recently?

[ploto]

In the hospital.

[Lars]

1.) Rockets
2.) Miami
3.) Chicago
4.) OKC

[lefty]

Spurs :D

Wait, thats impossible

[himat]

1.) Rockets
2.) Miami
3.) Chicago
4.) OKC

I think Bosh would do very well for you guys. You guys should try trading Yao though.

[Mel_13]

None of these max-deal free agents will leave their teams without a sign & trade, which opens up the door for a lot of teams. You're giving up $30 million if you don't go that route. My gut tells me that Morey will make a very hard push for Bosh, or a Bosh-caliber player.

You do realize that the Rockets would have to send at least 15M in contracts to Toronto (or whatever team the max player currently belongs to). What combination of contracts do you believe would be of enough interest to the other team to get them to cooperate?

[Scola]

He will do a sign and trade with Toronto & Chicago (The Bulls have the pieces to trade for him and will probably include Deng).

I heard someone (Either Bill Simmons or Chris Rusillo, say that if the Lakers don't win they might reconsider the earlier Bosh/Bynum swap, but it sounds pretty unrealistic since they would lose their center and would have to play with 2 soft power forwards.)

[Mel_13]

He will do a sign and trade with Toronto & Chicago (The Bulls have the pieces to trade for him and will probably include Deng).

Much more likely. Chicago, or any team with sufficient cap space, has leverage over Toronto in that situation.

Teams without cap space, like Houston, will have to give up good players/picks to make Toronto play ball.

[D-Wade #3]

Much more likely. Chicago, or any team with sufficient cap space, has leverage over Toronto in that situation.

Teams without cap space, like Houston, will have to give up good players/picks to make Toronto play ball.

well they do have the Knicks' picks, so dunno

[Mel_13]

well they do have the Knicks' picks, so dunno


If they want Bosh, they'll probably have to give those up just for starters.

[badfish22]

Didnt he land on the floor recently?

http://www.analogdistortion.com/images/ownd/lmao.jpg

[timvpimp]

I know the Mavs are always voracious for superstars but I don't think Bosh would be a difference maker for the Dallas boys in blue. Bosh plays the same style of game Dirk's used to- soft and wimpy.

[The Franchise]

well they do have the Knicks' picks, so dunno

Smart man. :toast Send them something like battier and jefferies (expiring), Scola, the NY swap 2011 first rounder, and our 2011 second rounder, and I see them being happy. They will get two good defenders who will be coming off the books at seasons end, and an adequate replacement for Bosh in Scola. Add in two picks, and I don't see them getting any better offers from other teams. Add Yao and Bosh, plus an athletic backup center with our lottery pick and I think we will be set to whip a bunch of ass next season.

[timvpimp]

Houston might be a destination in consideration for Bosh from earlier on but I don't think the H-Town will be the choice he actually makes. I like the structure of salary of the Rockets team and the compounds of talents, except the sad fact that the precious 18 MILLION worth salary space will continue to be used on fallow soil next season, and you all know how much 18 Million means in the 2010 FA market where many superb players will be available there for selections. I'm not sure exactly how much room the Rockets will have available for those free agents come the summer, but ubiquitously 18 Million means quite a lot. Dwayne Wade won't demand a contract with the first year salary bigger than 18 million, nor will Lebron I believe. That said the Rockets would be able to well afford a play of THIS caliber if they hadn't fastened the money to a piece of shit, which they actually did whereas.

[Mel_13]

Smart man. :toast Send them something like battier and jefferies (expiring), Scola, the NY swap 2011 first rounder, and our 2011 second rounder, and I see them being happy. They will get two good defenders who will be coming off the books at seasons end, and an adequate replacement for Bosh in Scola. Add in two picks, and I don't see them getting any better offers from other teams. Add Yao and Bosh, plus an athletic backup center with our lottery pick and I think we will be set to whip a bunch of ass next season.

No

1. You'll have to give the 2012 NY pick, as well.

2. Jefferies sucks, no way Toronto wants him.

3. The biggest flaw: you can't trade Scola to Toronto unless he wants to go there. Forget about Scola going to that mess in Toronto.

[djohn2oo8]

Houston might be a destination in consideration for Bosh from earlier on but I don't think the H-Town will be the choice he actually makes. I like the structure of salary of the Rockets team and the compounds of talents, except the sad fact that the precious 18 MILLION worth salary space will continue to be used on fallow soil next season, and you all know how much 18 Million means in the 2010 FA market where many superb players will be available there for selections. I'm not sure exactly how much room the Rockets will have available for those free agents come the summer, but ubiquitously 18 Million means quite a lot. Dwayne Wade won't demand a contract with the first year salary bigger than 18 million, nor will Lebron I believe. That said the Rockets would be able to well afford a play of THIS caliber if they hadn't fastened the money to a piece of shit, which they actually did whereas.

None, if Yao comes off the books in 2011, that's when Carmelo and Durant become free agents. Durant to Houston would be a pipedream, but he definitely stays in OKC, Carmelo, I'm not so sure of. This offseason, we will reload through a sign and trade. Morey will pull another Donnie Walsh on somebody else

[Spursfanfromafar]

An IF and a big IF -

If Utah land the top lottery pick (through the Knicks) ..lets say they get John Wall, a sign and trade for Bosh is surely in order, maybe Kirilenko goes to the Raptors...along with Wall ..and I think that will be a good deal for both teams.

[djohn2oo8]

An IF and a big IF -

If Utah land the top lottery pick (through the Knicks) ..lets say they get John Wall, a sign and trade for Bosh is surely in order, maybe Kirilenko goes to the Raptors...along with Wall ..and I think that will be a good deal for both teams.

Naw, Utah is trying to decrease the number of Blacks on the team

[timvpimp]

None, if Yao comes off the books in 2011, that's when Carmelo and Durant become free agents. Durant to Houston would be a pipedream, but he definitely stays in OKC, Carmelo, I'm not so sure of. This offseason, we will reload through a sign and trade. Morey will pull another Donnie Walsh on somebody else
I know the Mavs will have a better chance to trigger a sign&trade with a team seeking financial relief, because they have Dampier's contract which equals 12 Million of salary space. Any team taking his contract can simply choose not to pick the team option for 2010-2011 season and let him leave naked without paying him a shit. The Rockets best asset for S&T deals is shit's contract that expires in 2011 with about 18m guaranteed for the only year remaining, but I don't see any reason why a trader should choose to pay shit the 18m over Dampier whom they wouldn't need to pay shit for.

[The Franchise]

No

1. You'll have to give the 2012 NY pick, as well.

2. Jefferies sucks, no way Toronto wants him.

3. The biggest flaw: you can't trade Scola to Toronto unless he wants to go there. Forget about Scola going to that mess in Toronto.

Switch Hill for Scola then. If Bosh decides he wants to come to Houston Toronto will have to accept what they can get or get nothing. That being said two picks, two expiring serviceable players, and a good young PF in Hill is more than fair. as I said before who will they get a better deal from?

[Mel_13]

Switch Hill for Scola then. If Bosh decides he wants to come to Houston Toronto will have to accept what they can get or get nothing. That being said two picks, two expiring serviceable players, and a good young PF in Hill is more than fair. as I said before who will they get a better deal from?

This is the great fallacy in your reasoning. Bosh has no leverage to force a S&T to Houston. Houston can only offer him the MLE. Toronto will just laugh if he says "deal with Houston or I'll take the MLE". Toronto only deals with Houston if they want what Houston has to offer. Otherwise, they tell Bosh to forget it. They know that there's no way he's signing for the MLE.

Compare that with a team with cap space like Chicago or New York. If Bosh wants to go there, Toronto has to do a S&T for the simple reason that it would be stupid not to. Bosh could call their bluff and take 5yr/96M instead of the 6yr/126M he would get in a S&T. Toronto can get a player like Lee or Deng in that case. Even if they can't agree on a player, they could trade him for a second round pick and a 17M trade exception. They would then have one year to turn that TE into a player/players from one or more of the other 28 teams in the league.

Houston, like San Antonio, has no chance at Bosh because they don't have the pieces to get Toronto's attention.

[200 miles]

He will be a Chicago Bull.

[djohn2oo8]

This is the great fallacy in your reasoning. Bosh has no leverage to force a S&T to Houston. Houston can only offer him the MLE. Toronto will just laugh if he says "deal with Houston or I'll take the MLE". Toronto only deals with Houston if they want what Houston has to offer. Otherwise, they tell Bosh to forget it. They know that there's no way he's signing for the MLE.

Compare that with a team with cap space like Chicago or New York. If Bosh wants to go there, Toronto has to do a S&T for the simple reason that it would be stupid not to. Bosh could call their bluff and take 5yr/96M instead of the 6yr/126M he would get in a S&T. Toronto can get a player like Lee or Deng in that case. Even if they can't agree on a player, they could trade him for a second round pick and a 17M trade exception. They would then have one year to turn that TE into a player/players from one or more of the other 28 teams in the league.

Houston, like San Antonio, has no chance at Bosh because they don't have the pieces to get Toronto's attention.

Toronto originally wanted Brooks Scola and Battier for Bosh. So the pieces are still there, I would just substitute someone else for Brooks

[Mel_13]

Toronto originally wanted Brooks Scola and Battier for Bosh. So the pieces are still there, I would just substitute someone else for Brooks

Scola won't go to Toronto. It's a non-starter.

[JustBlaze]

Perhaps New Jersey? Harris + Lopez + Bosh, that's at least a playoff team in the East.

[timvpimp]

Perhaps New Jersey? Harris + Lopez + Bosh, that's at least a playoff team in the East.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=16754&dateline=1242539248

[The Franchise]

This is the great fallacy in your reasoning. Bosh has no leverage to force a S&T to Houston. Houston can only offer him the MLE. Toronto will just laugh if he says "deal with Houston or I'll take the MLE". Toronto only deals with Houston if they want what Houston has to offer. Otherwise, they tell Bosh to forget it. They know that there's no way he's signing for the MLE.

Compare that with a team with cap space like Chicago or New York. If Bosh wants to go there, Toronto has to do a S&T for the simple reason that it would be stupid not to. Bosh could call their bluff and take 5yr/96M instead of the 6yr/126M he would get in a S&T. Toronto can get a player like Lee or Deng in that case. Even if they can't agree on a player, they could trade him for a second round pick and a 17M trade exception. They would then have one year to turn that TE into a player/players from one or more of the other 28 teams in the league.

Houston, like San Antonio, has no chance at Bosh because they don't have the pieces to get Toronto's attention.

I have a few question to ask you. If you are the GM of Toronto, and Bosh says I want to go to Houston, do you tell him no and risk getting nothing in return? Let's say they tell him no and he can't go to his first choice. He still has the option to go to any team with cap space willing to pay him. The only difference is now, because he wasn't accomodated, he feels slighted by your organization. Do you think he tries to help the organization that just told him no to his chosen destination? Now let's go with your scenario and say Bosh wants to got to NY or Chicago. Why would Toronto want to do this deal? Why would the Raptors want Deng on his horrible contract? Does he make them any better? No. Does Lee? No. Plus they would both keep the team strapped for cash finacially until at least 2015.

The best case you have given is a 17M trade exception and a second round pick. This isn't too bad, but is it better than 14M expiring, a 1st and 2nd round pick, and a young, athletic, shotblocking PF? Which gives you more flexiblity to rebuild quicker? The truth is Bosh has all the leverage in any negotiations with Toronto. All they have to decide is if they want to get something out of it or not. I really doubt they say no to that package if he chooses Houston.

[Mel_13]

I have a few question to ask you. If you are the GM of Toronto, and Bosh says I want to go to Houston, do you tell him no and risk getting nothing in return? Let's say they tell him no and he can't go to his first choice. He still has the option to go to any team with cap space willing to pay him. The only difference is now, because he wasn't accomodated, he feels slighted by your organization. Do you think he tries to help the organization that just told him no to his chosen destination? Now let's go with your scenario and say Bosh wants to got to NY or Chicago. Why would Toronto want to do this deal? Why would the Raptors want Deng on his horrible contract? Does he make them any better? No. Does Lee? No. Plus they would both keep the team strapped for cash finacially until at least 2015.

The best case you have given is a 17M trade exception and a second round pick. This isn't too bad, but is it better than 14M expiring, a 1st and 2nd round pick, and a young, athletic, shotblocking PF? Which gives you more flexiblity to rebuild quicker? The truth is Bosh has all the leverage in any negotiations with Toronto. All they have to decide is if they want to get something out of it or not. I really doubt they say no to that package if he chooses Houston.

I don't see the risk for Toronto. Let's say Bosh feels slighted when Toronto doesn't accommodate his desire to go to Houston. So now he goes to Chicago, NY or Miami. Is he really going to forgo the extra 30M that he can get with a S&T just to get back at Toronto? I don't see that as likely.

On your next point, why would Toronto want expiring contracts? They don't need them to meet minimum payroll or roster requirements. They would be much better off getting some combination of picks and/or players on rookie deals plus a large TE. The deal you propose from Houston nets them nothing more than Hill, a second rounder, and a first rounder that may not even be a low lottery pick. Plus they have to pay 14M for players that don't help them in any way. Toronto doesn't have to settle for that. I do believe a second rounder and a 17M TE trumps that. It gives Toronto tremendous flexibility to identify a player/players on a financially weak team and they have 365 days to use it.

As to leverage. Bosh has great leverage if he chooses a team with cap space. He has almost no leverage if he chooses a team without cap space. You may believe otherwise and that's fine.

We'll see in July.

[Double-Up]

Not sure I want him in Dallas....he always has been over-rated to me :elephant

Go fuck yourself. :elephant:elephant:elephant

[ploto]

Don't be shocked if he stays in Toronto.

[Mel_13]

Don't be shocked if he stays in Toronto.

I'll be shocked.

That franchise, in terms of the ability to compete at a high level, is a disaster. Too many massively overpaid players will hinder their ability to improve for years to come. Bosh will go someplace with better prospects for success and he'll have plenty of options to choose from.

[The Franchise]

Don't be shocked if he stays in Toronto.

:wow

[mogrovejo]

I don't see the risk for Toronto. Let's say Bosh feels slighted when Toronto doesn't accommodate his desire to go to Houston. So now he goes to Chicago, NY or Miami. Is he really going to forgo the extra 30M that he can get with a S&T just to get back at Toronto? I don't see that as likely.

(...)

As to leverage. Bosh has great leverage if he chooses a team with cap space. He has almost no leverage if he chooses a team without cap space. You may believe otherwise and that's fine.

That's contradictory. Either Bosh has leverage due to the existence of several teams able to offer him a max contract or he doesn't. That leverage belongs to Bosh. He doesn't need to say "I want to go to Texas and I really don't want to go to the Nets, the Knicks, the Heat, the Bulls, the Clippers, etc., so if we cant' work out a S&T with Houston I'll re-sign here". That becomes more of an issue if there's only 1 team in the league with enough cap room to sign the player; if there are 4 or 5 that reasoning doesn't apply.

As for what Toronto may prefer, most teams in this situation prefer the TPE & picks/cheap promising players. However, Toronto is a special case with all the money they have committed long term and the kind of players they have in the roster. They can't create cap room; the TPE won't have much value in a year like the next one. They may very well prefer a combination of players+picks.

[mogrovejo]

Don't be shocked if he stays in Toronto.

I wouldn't, but I think it's unlikely at this point.

[Kai]

This is the great fallacy in your reasoning. Bosh has no leverage to force a S&T to Houston. Houston can only offer him the MLE. Toronto will just laugh if he says "deal with Houston or I'll take the MLE". Toronto only deals with Houston if they want what Houston has to offer. Otherwise, they tell Bosh to forget it. They know that there's no way he's signing for the MLE.

Compare that with a team with cap space like Chicago or New York. If Bosh wants to go there, Toronto has to do a S&T for the simple reason that it would be stupid not to. Bosh could call their bluff and take 5yr/96M instead of the 6yr/126M he would get in a S&T. Toronto can get a player like Lee or Deng in that case. Even if they can't agree on a player, they could trade him for a second round pick and a 17M trade exception. They would then have one year to turn that TE into a player/players from one or more of the other 28 teams in the league.

Houston, like San Antonio, has no chance at Bosh because they don't have the pieces to get Toronto's attention.
I wouldn't be so quick to say Houston doesn't have the pieces. They would have to take back salaries, yes, but we have expirings in Battier and Jeffries that they would only have to deal with for a year. We could possiblye make that worth their while with our collection of draft picks, particularly New York's. While sending Bosh away (ensuring he doesn't go to the Knicks) for NY's picks, they are directly hurting the Knicks' chances of getting a better record, ergo a better draft pick. We have promising young players in Jordan Hill and Chase Budinger, Ariza, and I think we might even be willing to part with Brooks.

Don't write off Scola in a deal, as completely unreasonable as that sounds. We might be willing to pay him more to send him off to make the salaries work. I wouldn't think he would turn down extra money.

[Mel_13]

That's contradictory.

Not at all.

Simply stated, Bosh has greater leverage to force a S&T to a team that has sufficient cap space than he does to a team that doesn't.

[Mel_13]

I wouldn't be so quick to say Houston doesn't have the pieces. They would have to take back salaries, yes, but we have expirings in Battier and Jeffries that they would only have to deal with for a year. We could possiblye make that worth their while with our collection of draft picks, particularly New York's. While sending Bosh away (ensuring he doesn't go to the Knicks) for NY's picks, they are directly hurting the Knicks' chances of getting a better record, ergo a better draft pick. We have promising young players in Jordan Hill and Chase Budinger, Ariza, and I think we might even be willing to part with Brooks.

Don't write off Scola in a deal, as completely unreasonable as that sounds. We might be willing to pay him more to send him off to make the salaries work. I wouldn't think he would turn down extra money.

We'll find out in July.

I don't believe Houston has any realistic chance. I believe he winds up on a team with cap space.

I do write off the possibility of Scola going to Toronto. You've watched the guy play for 3 years. A guy with that much heart isn't voluntarily signing up to join that mess in Toronto.

[Kai]

We'll find out in July.

I don't believe Houston has any realistic chance. I believe he winds up on a team with cap space.

I do write off the possibility of Scola going to Toronto. You've watched the guy play for 3 years. A guy with that much heart isn't voluntarily signing up to join that mess in Toronto.

I agree, although I think we have a slight chance. Very unlikely, but not unrealistic. I'm definitely not holding my breath.

[mogrovejo]

Not at all.

Simply stated, Bosh has greater leverage to force a S&T to a team that has sufficient cap space than he does to a team that doesn't.

You made the point why it isn't like that:


he goes to Chicago, NY or Miami. Is he really going to forgo the extra 30M that he can get with a S&T just to get back at Toronto? I don't see that as likely.

Normally, it'd be that way. In this case, this season, it isn't. Lots of teams with the cap space required + Toronto likely not being interested in TPE make this a different situation.

[mogrovejo]

Why would Toronto prefer a TPE and a 2nd round pick if they could get, for example, Scola+expiring+New York picks+Buddinger? What are they going to do with the TPE in the year before the new CBA? Just save the money? Isn't Scola+Budinger+Lowry+potential lottery pick worth taking on Jeffries expiring?

[Mel_13]

You made the point why it isn't like that:



Normally, it'd be that way. In this case, this season, it isn't. Lots of teams with the cap space required + Toronto likely not being interested in TPE make this a different situation.

I'm confused. Are you saying Toronto wouldn't be interested in a S&T with NY, Miami, or Chicago?

[Mel_13]

Why would Toronto prefer a TPE and a 2nd round pick if they could get, for example, Scola+expiring+New York picks+Buddinger?

They're not getting Scola.

[mogrovejo]

They're not getting Scola.

If that's what they ask, they'll get him.


I'm confused. Are you saying Toronto wouldn't be interested in a S&T with NY, Miami, or Chicago?

Sure they'd be interested. But the leverage NY, MIami or Chicago have is similar to Houston.

You're saying 2 contradictory things:

- Bosh doesn't have leverage to go to Houston because what if Toronto doesn't like it? He goes to Chicago, NY or Miami. Is he really going to forgo the extra 30M that he can get with a S&T just to get back at Toronto? I don't see that as likely.

- Bosh has leverage to go to NY, Chicago or Miami. Is he really going to forgo the extra 30M that he can get with a S&T just to get back at Toronto? Yes, I see that as likely!

[The Franchise]

I just think my Houston scenario gives them more flexibility when it comes to there future. I feel a TPE would just put them in a similar position to what they're facing now.

[Mel_13]

If that's what they ask, they'll get him.


But the leverage NY, MIami or Chicago have is similar to Houston.


You're saying 2 contradictory things:



1. They can't trade Scola to Toronto unless Scola wants to go to Toronto.

2. I completely disagree.

3. Between the chop job and taking my comments out of context, you're attaching meaning to my comments that are yours not mine. Taken from beginning to end, in context, there are no internal contradictions in my comments in this thread.

As I said to the Rocket fans here, I believe Bosh ends up on a team with cap space. In the less likely event that a S&T is negotiated with a team without cap space, Houston has the second best assets in the state of Texas to make a deal with Toronto behind Dallas.

[Kai]

As I said to the Rocket fans here, I believe Bosh ends up on a team with cap space. In the less likely event that a S&T is negotiated with a team without cap space, Houston has the second best assets in the state of Texas to make a deal with Toronto behind Dallas.

1) that's debatable.

2) Bosh is in the driver's seat, so even if Dallas had a better offer, that doesn't mean Bosh would want to go there. Bosh said this year in an interview that he wouldn't want to go to Dallas because everyone he know would bug him for tickets and wouldn't get privacy or something (take that FWIW)

3) Dallas wouldn't necessarily want Bosh. They might be more inclined to go after a different free agent with their package. Bosh and Nowitzki might conflict each other's games.

[Mel_13]

1) that's debatable.

2) Bosh is in the driver's seat, so even if Dallas had a better offer, that doesn't mean Bosh would want to go there. Bosh said this year in an interview that he wouldn't want to go to Dallas because everyone he know would bug him for tickets and wouldn't get privacy or something (take that FWIW)

3) Dallas wouldn't necessarily want Bosh. They might be more inclined to go after a different free agent with their package. Bosh and Nowitzki might conflict each other's games.

1. It's not debatable. Scola will be a restricted FA this summer (I assume Houston will tender the necessary Qualifying Offer to make him an RFA). They can only trade him to Toronto if he agrees to go to Toronto. That's not a matter of opinion, that's the CBA.

2. True

3. True

[Thunder Dan]

I guess Chicago.

I hope New York gets nobody just so I can see the backlash

[Kai]

1. It's not debatable. Scola will be a restricted FA this summer (I assume Houston will tender the necessary Qualifying Offer to make him an RFA). They can only trade him to Toronto if he agrees to go to Toronto. That's not a matter of opinion, that's the CBA.


I didn't mean the Scola thing was debatable, I meant the part I bolded was. When you said Dallas had a better offer. You never know for sure, Morey might offer Martin/Brooks or whatever. It's possible that the Houston offer would be better than Dallas'.

[Kai]

Also, if I had to guess, I'd say Miami followed by Chicago.

[The Franchise]

Out of curiousity, what better package can Dallas offer?

[mogrovejo]

1. They can't trade Scola to Toronto unless Scola wants to go to Toronto.

Yeah, but why wouldn't him want to be? He wants to get paid.


2. I completely disagree.

With what?


3. Between the chop job and taking my comments out of context, you're attaching meaning to my comments that are yours not mine. Taken from beginning to end, in context, there are no internal contradictions in my comments in this thread.

As I said to the Rocket fans here, I believe Bosh ends up on a team with cap space. In the less likely event that a S&T is negotiated with a team without cap space, Houston has the second best assets in the state of Texas to make a deal with Toronto behind Dallas.

Of course there are. You still can't explain why teams with no cap space have less leverage. I suppose it's because if Toronto doesn't agree to the S&T Bosh can go there anyway and the Raptors will be left without nothing? But you said you dont' believe he'll walk away from $30 millions, so.. either it's a credible threat or a non-credible threat.

Bosh has the same amount of leverage if he wants to leave the Raptors, regardless of the team he wants to go. Even if he tells BC something like "I want to leave, my priority is to sign with the Rockets (or Dallas or whatever) so I'd like to arrange a S&T; if it can't really get done because you hate what they're offering, than I'm okay if you can work out a S&T with Miami (or Chicago, etc.); if none of this happens, I'm sorry but I'm just leaving for one of the 4 teams willing to give me a max contract" what do you think BC will do?

[mogrovejo]

Out of curiousity, what better package can Dallas offer?

Dampier's non-guaranteed contract would be their biggest selling point.

[Mel_13]

I didn't mean the Scola thing was debatable, I meant the part I bolded was. When you said Dallas had a better offer. You never know for sure, Morey might offer Martin/Brooks or whatever. It's possible that the Houston offer would be better than Dallas'.

Gotcha.

The reason I say Dallas could offer a better deal is because of Dampier's contract. They could use that in addition to other assets and offer to absorb one of Toronto's hideous contracts (Hedo or Calderon). Houston can't make one of those bad contracts completely disappear while Dallas can.

Of course, Bosh may have no interest in Dallas and Dallas may have no interest in Bosh.

[mogrovejo]

A TPE and a 2nd rounder is enough to get a S&T done, even for an All-Star kind of player.

[The Franchise]

Gotcha.

The reason I say Dallas could offer a better deal is because of Dampier's contract. They could use that in addition to other assets and offer to absorb one of Toronto's hideous contracts (Hedo or Calderon). Houston can't make one of those bad contracts completely disappear while Dallas can.

Of course, Bosh may have no interest in Dallas and Dallas may have no interest in Bosh.

Why would Dallas take on one of those contracts? What other assets do they have that Toronto would want?

[Mel_13]

Yeah, but why wouldn't him want to be? He wants to get paid.



With what?



Of course there are. You still can't explain why teams with no cap space have less leverage. I suppose it's because if Toronto doesn't agree to the S&T Bosh can go there anyway and the Raptors will be left without nothing? But you said you dont' believe he'll walk away from $30 millions, so.. either it's a credible threat or a non-credible threat.

Bosh has the same amount of leverage if he wants to leave the Raptors, regardless of the team he wants to go. Even if he tells BC something like "I want to leave, my priority is to sign with the Rockets (or Dallas or whatever) so I'd like to arrange a S&T; if it can't really get done because you hate what they're offering, than I'm okay if you can work out a S&T with Miami (or Chicago, etc.); if none of this happens, I'm sorry but I'm just leaving for one of the 4 teams willing to give me a max contract" what do you think BC will do?

I'm done.

I stand by my opinion that Bosh has greater leverage to force a S&T to team with cap space than to a team without cap space. I've have explained why. Read the comments from beginning to end in context. It's all there.

You have a contrary opinion. You're welcome to it.

We'll get a resolution in July.

[Kai]

It's worth pointing out that traditionally teams that sign & trade a player to a team with cap room don't really get much compensation in return (Rashard Lewis was had for like a draft pick, Joe Johnson two picks). So Toronto might want more (from teams like Dallas or Houston) in return and they would just have to take on some expirings that they could deal at the deadline or just eat. Teams without cap room will have much more attractive offers.

[Mel_13]

Why would Dallas take on one of those contracts? What other assets do they have that Toronto would want?

They take on the bad contract as the price required to acquire Bosh. With drastic changes to the CBA on the horizon in 2011, this summer may be the last chance for Cuban to throw his wallet around to get a championship.

It certainly is conceivable that Toronto would find the notion of offloading Calderon or Hedo as the best possible outcome if they are to lose Bosh this summer.

[Kai]

Why would Dallas take on one of those contracts? What other assets do they have that Toronto would want?

They would take on bad contracts in order to get Bosh, if they think he's worth it. They don't need a whole lot more as far as assets. If Bosh wants to go to Dallas for sure, Toronto will want at least something in return. They'd take Dampier and cut him, along with some draft picks or whatever. It's either that or they let him walk and get nothing.

[Mel_13]

It's worth pointing out that traditionally teams that sign & trade a player to a team with cap room don't really get much compensation in return (Rashard Lewis was had for like a draft pick, Joe Johnson two picks). So Toronto might want more (from teams like Dallas or Houston) in return and they would just have to take on some expirings that they could deal at the deadline or just eat. Teams without cap room will have much more attractive offers.

True, but you left out a few details.

First, Toronto would keep Bosh if was willing to sign a max deal with them. That wasn't the case with Seattle and Phoenix.

In the case of Seattle, they had no interest in keeping Lewis at that price. So they traded him for a protected 2nd rounder and a giant TE. Now look what they did with the TE. They took Kurt Thomas from Phoenix in a salary dump in exchange for two first round picks. They have already used one on Serge Ibaka, the other pick will be made this summer. Then they traded Thomas to the Spurs for expiring contracts and another first rounder. They already had one extra 2009 first rounder, so they traded the lesser of the two for Thabo Sefolosha. So for letting Lewis leave, they have Ibaka, Sefo, and one more first rounder. Plus they won fewer games in the short term and stayed a lottery team long enough to add Harden and Westbrook to Durant and Green.

JJ was a restricted FA. Phoenix could have kept him by simply matching Atlanta's offer sheet. They chose not to. They traded him for Diaw, who was still on a rookie contract and two first rounders. The first one was used to pick Rondo, unfortunately Phoenix was too stupid to keep the pick. The second pick was top-3 protected in the 2007 draft and Atlanta got lucky and moved up to third, so the pick was used to pick Lopez in 2008.

The point of all of this? With Bosh, Toronto is a borderline playoff team. Without Bosh, they are terrible. They may prefer to follow the path cleared by OKC and Portland, rather than try to add pieces to a badly flawed team.

[JamStone]

It's worth pointing out that traditionally teams that sign & trade a player to a team with cap room don't really get much compensation in return (Rashard Lewis was had for like a draft pick, Joe Johnson two picks). So Toronto might want more (from teams like Dallas or Houston) in return and they would just have to take on some expirings that they could deal at the deadline or just eat. Teams without cap room will have much more attractive offers.

I think that might be the case most of the time, but this off season is quite a bit different than the Rashard Lewis and Joe Johnson situations, mostly because there are a number of teams that have a lot of cap space to offer max contracts and with that there can be a bidding war, upping the cost of making a sign-and-trade deal for a guy like Bosh. I don't recall exactly, but I would be willing to bet that Atlanta and Orlando were really the only teams in the discussion to acquire Johnson and Lewis respectively and therefore had leverage and didn't have to give up as much as a team might this summer for a guy like Bosh.

BTW, Seattle also acquired a $9 million trade exception in the sign-and-trade that sent Lewis to Orlando, and that can be a valuable asset. And, Boris Diaw was part of the sign-and-trade involving Joe Johnson going to Atlanta.

[Kai]

True, but you left out a few details.

First, Toronto would keep Bosh if was willing to sign a max deal with them. That wasn't the case with Seattle and Phoenix.

In the case of Seattle, they had no interest in keeping Lewis at that price. So they traded him for a protected 2nd rounder and a giant TE. Now look what they did with the TE. They took Kurt Thomas from Phoenix in a salary dump in exchange for two first round picks. They have already used one on Serge Ibaka, the other pick will be made this summer. Then they traded Thomas to the Spurs for expiring contracts and another first rounder. They already had one extra 2009 first rounder, so they traded the lesser of the two for Thabo Sefolosha. So for letting Lewis leave, they have Ibaka, Sefo, and one more first rounder. Plus they won fewer games in the short term and stayed a lottery team long enough to add Harden and Westbrook to Durant and Green.

JJ was a restricted FA. Phoenix could have kept him by simply matching Atlanta's offer sheet. They chose not to. They traded him for Diaw, who was still on a rookie contract and two first rounders. The first one was used to pick Rondo, unfortunately Phoenix was too stupid to keep the pick. The second pick was top-3 protected in the 2007 draft and Atlanta got lucky and moved up to third, so the pick was used to pick Lopez in 2008.

The point of all of this? With Bosh, Toronto is a borderline playoff team. Without Bosh, they are terrible. They may prefer to follow the path cleared by OKC and Portland, rather than try to add pieces to a badly flawed team.

You're right about everything, the only point I'm trying to make is that a team with cap space isn't going to be offering as much as a team without.

The teams without space (Texas teams, etc) will have to make a deal worthwhile if they have to match salaries, whereas a team with space doesn't have to match salaries, so they'd be less inclined to make the deal sweeter than a couple picks or so.

[Mel_13]

You're right about everything, the only point I'm trying to make is that a team with cap space isn't going to be offering as much as a team without.

The teams without space (Texas teams, etc) will have to make a deal worthwhile if they have to match salaries, whereas a team with space doesn't have to match salaries, so they'd be less inclined to make the deal sweeter than a couple picks or so.

I agree with all of this.

What we don't know, and may have differing guesses about, is how Toronto would view their future without Bosh and what course they will follow to build a competitive team after he leaves.

[Kai]

I think that might be the case most of the time, but this off season is quite a bit different than the Rashard Lewis and Joe Johnson situations, mostly because there are a number of teams that have a lot of cap space to offer max contracts and with that there can be a bidding war, upping the cost of making a sign-and-trade deal for a guy like Bosh. I don't recall exactly, but I would be willing to bet that Atlanta and Orlando were really the only teams in the discussion to acquire Johnson and Lewis respectively and therefore had leverage and didn't have to give up as much as a team might this summer for a guy like Bosh.

BTW, Seattle also acquired a $9 million trade exception in the sign-and-trade that sent Lewis to Orlando, and that can be a valuable asset. And, Boris Diaw was part of the sign-and-trade involving Joe Johnson going to Atlanta.

Bosh is the one driving all of this, not the Raptors. Bosh doesn't care about who can offer the best assets for him. Bosh is the one deciding where he wants to go, not Toronto. Toronto will have to agree to a certain extent, but it's not like they are trading a guy under contract. The only bidding war that matters is who gives Bosh the most money, which is kind of redundant because he's gonna get paid the max.

If anything, Bosh would want to go to the team giving up the least for him, since that would keep them stronger.

[JamStone]

Bosh is the one driving all of this, not the Raptors. Bosh doesn't care about who can offer the best assets for him. Bosh is the one deciding where he wants to go, not Toronto. Toronto will have to agree to a certain extent, but it's not like they are trading a guy under contract. The only bidding war that matters is who gives Bosh the most money, which is kind of redundant because he's gonna get paid the max.

If anything, Bosh would want to go to the team giving up the least for him, since that would keep them stronger.

True. But there are different factors. There are probably teams Bosh would prefer to go. And there are probably teams that will offer something Toronto might want. It's up to both Bosh and the the Raptors to try to appeal to the needs of the other in order to mutual benefit them, Bosh in order to get the most max money available and the Raptors to actually get a package in return they have value in.

You're right that it's still mostly on Bosh. But, there can still be a bidding war where the Raptors try to negotiate a trade that will also benefit them.

And as for Bosh wanting to go to a team giving up the least for him, there are different types of assets other than actual players. A team might not give up a lot of great players that will deplete their team, but they could offer draft picks, expiring contracts, and cash considerations. That can also up the ante.

[Kai]

True. But there are different factors. There are probably teams Bosh would prefer to go. And there are probably teams that will offer something Toronto might want. It's up to both Bosh and the the Raptors to try to appeal to the needs of the other in order to mutual benefit them, Bosh in order to get the most max money available and the Raptors to actually get a package in return they have value in.

You're right that it's still mostly on Bosh. But, there can still be a bidding war where the Raptors try to negotiate a trade that will also benefit them.

And as for Bosh wanting to go to a team giving up the least for him, there are different types of assets other than actual players. A team might not give up a lot of great players that will deplete their team, but they could offer draft picks, expiring contracts, and cash considerations. That can also up the ante.

Agreed.

[The Franchise]

True. But there are different factors. There are probably teams Bosh would prefer to go. And there are probably teams that will offer something Toronto might want. It's up to both Bosh and the the Raptors to try to appeal to the needs of the other in order to mutual benefit them, Bosh in order to get the most max money available and the Raptors to actually get a package in return they have value in.

You're right that it's still mostly on Bosh. But, there can still be a bidding war where the Raptors try to negotiate a trade that will also benefit them.

And as for Bosh wanting to go to a team giving up the least for him, there are different types of assets other than actual players. A team might not give up a lot of great players that will deplete their team, but they could offer draft picks, expiring contracts, and cash considerations. That can also up the ante.

That is exactly why I think Houston is in a good position should Bosh chose to sign with us.

[NugzFan]

this thread should be renamed "bosh will be signed/traded to my favorite team"

everyone just assumes bosh will end up there anyways.