If you make 2 clutch plays in 10 years playing for a team

[picc84]

Does that really make you clutch?

Is that the bare bones minimum for what it takes? Thats an average of once every 5 years.

How is clutch defined - do you include defensive plays as well? What about shots missed during that time. Do those things factor in as well?

At some point do the positives become a fluke? When the negatives are much, much more common?

[Bob Lanier]

"Clutch" is ridiculous magical thinking that cannot be shown to exist. There are chokers, and there are non-chokers.

[picc84]

Define "choker".

[noob cake]

Does that really make you clutch?

Is that the bare bones minimum for what it takes? Thats an average of once every 5 years.

How is clutch defined - do you include defensive plays as well? What about shots missed during that time. Do those things factor in as well?

At some point do the positives become a fluke? When the negatives are much, much more common?

You should be sucking Fisher's cock for what he has done for the Lakers. The man has saved Komette's ass multiple times with his clutch play in the playoffs. He has done enough for LAL; he can do whatever he wants now.

[picc84]

^^^why this thread exists.

"Saved Komette's ass multiple times". LMAO you don't even think about what you're saying, you just spew it.

[HarlemHeat37]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142908&highlight=unable

Fisher continues to be unappreciated by the Lakers fanbase..there's a reason Kobe and Phil Jackson respect him so much..

[Ghazi]

Is there a worse starting PG in the league than Fisher right now?

[picc84]

Still no response to original question, or actual real justification other than "LOL Kome needs Fish".

This was as predictable as Fisher fouling someone with 1 second left. :wakeup

[HarlemHeat37]

I posted numbers in that thread..

It seems that Kobe is more comfortable with Fisher on the floor for whatever reason..he obviously trusts him in all situations, as does Phil Jackson..comfort is a pretty big part of playing a team sport..

Obviously that's the reason he plays..who are they going to trust instead?..Farmar? Brown..those are 2 players that have some of the lowest basketball IQ in the NBA..

Fisher is a great leader that provides intangibles and toughness..shit, even the "accidental" moves he does help the Lakers..injuring George Hill, a potential Lakers opponent, you can't teach that..

[jacobdrj]

Fisher was a year away from leading the Jazz to the Finals... He left, the team's spirit left with him. Boozer is not a leader, and Deron wasn't ready yet to be the emotional leader of a team.

[hitmanyr2k]

Fisher is old and a subpar PG but he's the guy that always rescucitates the Laker team when they're damn near dead. When the Lakers need that one big shot to keep their hopes alive Fisher will usually deliver.

[picc84]

I posted numbers in that thread..

It seems that Kobe is more comfortable with Fisher on the floor for whatever reason..he obviously trusts him in all situations, as does Phil Jackson..comfort is a pretty big part of playing a team sport..

Obviously that's the reason he plays..who are they going to trust instead?..Farmar? Brown..those are 2 players that have some of the lowest basketball IQ in the NBA..

Fisher is a great leader that provides intangibles and toughness..shit, even the "accidental" moves he does help the Lakers..injuring George Hill, a potential Lakers opponent, you can't teach that..

The only part of this post that has any truth to it is that Kobe and Phil trust him. A fact that is no small part due to knowing and being friends with him for 13 years.

The rest you either made up or in absolutely no way answers the question I posed in the OP.

Thanks for playing.

[picc84]

Does that really make you clutch?

Is that the bare bones minimum for what it takes? Thats an average of once every 5 years.

How is clutch defined - do you include defensive plays as well? What about shots missed during that time. Do those things factor in as well?

At some point do the positives become a fluke? When the negatives are much, much more common?

[picc84]

Fisher is old and a subpar PG but he's the guy that always rescucitates the Laker team when they're damn near dead. When the Lakers need that one big shot to keep their hopes alive Fisher will usually deliver.

And yet outside of .4 and game 4, you can't name any. You didnt even try to.

And he's played for the Lakers for a decade.

Is that really all it takes? What about all the clutch misses and defensive blunders? Those don't matter at all, huh.

[DPG21920]

:lol at OP blasting people for their responses when he in fact provided nothing of substance.

[picc84]

:lol at OP blasting people for their responses when he in fact provided nothing of substance.

All I did was ask a question. One you predictably haven't even attempted to answer. :lol

[DPG21920]

How predictable that I use a smiley to make fun of you and you copy me.

[Tmac&Luther]

"Clutch" is ridiculous magical thinking that cannot be shown to exist. There are chokers, and there are non-chokers.

:lmao Dude saying there are "chokers and non-chokers" is just like saying players are clutch or non-clutch. You're just using different words.

[picc84]

How predictable that I use a smiley to make fun of you and you copy me.

2 responses, 2 ad hominem posts neither refuting, supporting, or even making a point relevant to the thread.

Vintage DPG. :wakeup

[DPG21920]

What is your take?

[hitmanyr2k]

And yet outside of .4 and game 4, you can't name any. You didnt even try to.

And he's played for the Lakers for a decade.

Is that really all it takes? What about all the clutch misses and defensive blunders? Those don't matter at all, huh.

I feel that I shouldn't even have to name any. I'm not the Laker fan :lol Off the top of my head? The game against Miami this year when Kobe hit the game winner. Kobe isn't even in that position if Fisher doesn't hit a huge three to give the Lakers hope with like 5 seconds left to go in the game. Kobe got the glory. Fisher's shot was forgotten. Typical lol. Fisher has done that at least 3 times this year alone lol.

[picc84]

I feel that I shouldn't even have to name any. I'm not the Laker fan :lol Off the top of my head? The game against Miami this year when Kobe hit the game winner. Kobe isn't even in that position if Fisher doesn't hit a huge three to give the Lakers hope with like 5 seconds left to go in the game. Kobe got the glory. Fisher's shot was forgotten. Typical lol. Fisher has done that at least 3 times this year alone lol.

Every Laker player has made plays that put us in a position for Kobe to win the game. Does that make every Laker player clutch, when they've made equal amounts of mistakes, if not more?

I can think of at least that many times this year alone that Fisher has either fouled someone at the end, missed a game winning shot, missed a shot that would have put us in a position to win (a la your example) or made a horrible end of game decision that cost us the game. And more in the playoffs. Why does that not matter?

Once every 5 years is enough? He's been "bailing Kobe out"? Really?

Just today, Fisher made the ft that tied the game at 88 with a few seconds left. Putting us in a "position to win", so to speak.

Did Derek Fisher have a clutch game today?

[poop]

Fisher is going to FALL OFF CLIFF this playoffs.

[picc84]

What is your take?

That his clutchness is extremely overrated, as is evidenced in no small part by the responses in this thread.

2 shots in 10 years. And we have people saying he has to bail kobe out "multiple times", like its happening every other game.

This is no Robert Horry we're talking about. He consistently makes bad decisions, defensive blunders, and has missed at least as many last second shots as he's made. Just off the top of my head game 2 vs Denver last year and game 4 vs SA in 2002. His clutchness was nowhere to be found when Detroit and Boston were wiping the floor with us.

He's a role player who has hit a couple big shots in his career, in the midst of an overwhelming abundance of blunders and mediocrity. He's not a clutch player, in the sense that Robert Horry or Kobe Bryant has been.

[Bob Lanier]

:lmao Dude saying there are "chokers and non-chokers" is just like saying players are clutch or non-clutch. You're just using different words.
No, quite the opposite. Some people are more affected than others by anxiety, like Chris Webber or Peja Stojakovic or David Robinson. They get worse under pressure. The notion of "clutch" players, on the other hand, suggests that some players get better under pressure, that Michael Jordan or Larry Bird or whoever could be counted upon to hit game-winners more so than they could be to hit a shot in the second quarter. This, I don't think is supported. It's just that they're very talented and skilled players who don't choke, and they can use that talent and skill to its full effect. There are non-talented and less-skilled players who don't choke, but there seems to be less of the stigma of failure attached should Robert Horry or Jon Barry or some other 35% 3-point shooter actually miss 65% of his game-winning 3-point shots.

[HarlemHeat37]

I gave you the Lakers great record with Fisher on the roster and their failures without him on the team..

You agree that Phil and Kobe have a lot of trust in him..he's obviously a good leader and intangibles guy..

I don't really know what else you want..your alternatives are Farmar and Brown..

The Lakers success(or lack thereof) with/without Fisher, his numerous clutch shots and his great intangibles speak volumes about his ability to keep his composure and step up in big games, at least IMO..

[DJ Mbenga]

fisher may be stupid, and old but if you leave him open he will destroy your heart and make shots in the end of games.

[hitmanyr2k]

Every Laker player has made plays that put us in a position for Kobe to win the game. Does that make every Laker player clutch, when they've made equal amounts of mistakes, if not more?

I can think of at least that many times this year alone that Fisher has either fouled someone at the end, missed a game winning shot, missed a shot that would have put us in a position to win (a la your example) or made a horrible end of game decision that cost us the game. And more in the playoffs.

Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" again :lol It's a two-way street.

[baseline bum]

Are you kidding me? Derek Fisher is the one who buried the Spurs in the 2001 WCF with his 75% three-point shooting. Fisher also had the clutch foul on Brent Barry in 08.

[picc84]

I gave you the Lakers great record with Fisher on the roster and their failures without him on the team..

You agree that Phil and Kobe have a lot of trust in him..he's obviously a good leader and intangibles guy..

I don't really know what else you want..your alternatives are Farmar and Brown..

No, you gave me the Lakers great record with Shaq and Pau Gasol on the team. That you attribute that record to Fisher would be funny if you weren't actually dead serious.

The rest of this post is, like the first one you made, irrelevant to the OP and filled with assertations that are flawed at best.

[monosylab1k]

Define "choker".

I think Bob Lanier has it right in this thread. To say someone is clutch means they always come through in pressure situations, which means nobody is clutch.

Kobe has failed tons of times in clutch situations, but to say he's a choker is ridiculous. Dirk has, i think, hit more gamewinners than anybody else in the past few years, but you'd be hard pressed to find a non-Mavs fan who considers Dirk "clutch".

Tom Brady was considered a tremendous clutch quarterback for most of his career. Then came the AFCCG collapse and 18-1 the next season. Now is he a "choker"? Meanwhile, Peyton Manning has choked in damn near every pressure situation of his career. But he has a ring. Does his Rex Grossman giftwrapped SB win make him "clutch"?

That's why it's stupid to define players as "clutch" or "not clutch". IMHO either a guy has the balls to step up in a pressure situation, and has varying degrees of success in those moments, or someone "chokes" by feeling the pressure and crumbling.

[picc84]

Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" again :lol It's a two-way street.

Kobe has made more clutch plays this season than Fisher has his entire career.

[picc84]

Are you kidding me? Derek Fisher is the one who buried the Spurs in the 2001 WCF with his 75% three-point shooting. Fisher also had the clutch foul on Brent Barry in 08.

Whats that series got to do with clutch? Besides, not much chance for clutch play when you're kicking the Spurs ass by 20 a game. :lol :toast

Clutch foul on Brent Barry was just another end of game blunder. The refs bailed us out on that one, not Fisher.

[HarlemHeat37]

That thread was obviously half-joking/trolling to Al-Quobe, but it's still interesting to see the impact that Fisher has had on the Lakers IMO..

You keep asking us to tell you why Fisher is clutch, yet you haven't given any good examples of why he isn't clutch..Fisher's clutch shots and intangibles are clearly a better argument than anything you can come up with for why Fisher isn't clutch..

You're saying a few clutch shots doesn't make him clutch, yet the only examples you've provided are a few moments where he missed the GW or game-tying shots..you then said he's just a role player, which is obviously true, but then you gave examples like asking where he was vs. Boston and Detroit, which is something that generally isn't asked when it comes to role players..

[Tmac&Luther]

No, quite the opposite. Some people are more affected than others by anxiety, like Chris Webber or Peja Stojakovic or David Robinson. They get worse under pressure. The notion of "clutch" players, on the other hand, suggests that some players get better under pressure, that Michael Jordan or Larry Bird or whoever could be counted upon to hit game-winners more so than they could be to hit a shot in the second quarter. This, I don't think is supported. It's just that they're very talented and skilled players who don't choke, and they can use that talent and skill to its full effect. There are non-talented and less-skilled players who don't choke, but there seems to be less of the stigma of failure attached should Robert Horry or Jon Barry or some other 35% 3-point shooter actually miss 65% of his game-winning 3-point shots.

I guess you never heard the saying..."so and so is good IN THE CLUTCH". As in Clutch situations...or pressure situations. So it's exactly what you're talking about with choking and not choking. All you're doing is using different words there pal.

You're talking about players not letting the pressure get to them, well that's the same thing that happens when players can perform "in the clutch". When someone says someone "is clutch" all that is, is the short way for saying they perform during clutch situations. AKA not choke.

So yeah, you can't say there isn't a thing as being "clutch", but also say players can choke or not choke. It's the same exact thing.

Also while it might not be possible for players to physically improve or get better athletically, just because it's a "clutch situation" it's silly to deny that a "clutch player" (or a player that doesn't choke) doesn't get a distinct advantage over other players in those situations.

I mean you just said yourself that some players tighten up while others don't. Well if a player who's butthole tightens up in those situations is stuck guarding another player who stays loose despite the heat/stress, you seriously don't think that the loose player doesn't get a edge in that situation? Not to mention the confidence factor of hitting those shots before. You just think it was some giant coincidence that Big shot Bob kept popping up during some of the biggest moments the last decade? If a player has been there and done that and has experience of being in that situation before, he's also going to have a advantage over a player who hasn't and doesn't know how to handle that stress/situation. So yes, on the mental factor of the game alone some players EASILY get a advantage over other players in the clutch or high pressure situations.

[Tmac&Luther]

I think Bob Lanier has it right in this thread. To say someone is clutch means they always come through in pressure situations, which means nobody is clutch.

Kobe has failed tons of times in clutch situations, but to say he's a choker is ridiculous. Dirk has, i think, hit more gamewinners than anybody else in the past few years, but you'd be hard pressed to find a non-Mavs fan who considers Dirk "clutch".

Tom Brady was considered a tremendous clutch quarterback for most of his career. Then came the AFCCG collapse and 18-1 the next season. Now is he a "choker"? Meanwhile, Peyton Manning has choked in damn near every pressure situation of his career. But he has a ring. Does his Rex Grossman giftwrapped SB win make him "clutch"?

That's why it's stupid to define players as "clutch" or "not clutch". IMHO either a guy has the balls to step up in a pressure situation, and has varying degrees of success in those moments, or someone "chokes" by feeling the pressure and crumbling.

:lol Who said someone always has to convert every FG to be clutch....That's like saying a MLB hitter has to bat 1000 to be considered a great hitter.

That's a flawed argument. Clutch players are players that welcome/want the ball in big game situations and can excel in it more often than not...

Tommy Lasorda once said there's three type of people at a baseball game (sporting event). Those that make things happen, those that watch things happen, and those that wonder what the hell just happened.

Same thing goes for players on the court/field.

Clutch players/non chokers have a knack for "making things happen" when everybody else is on edge.

[Goran Dragic]

Kobe can't do without Fisher

[Tmac&Luther]

Kobe can't do without Fisher

On the flip side though, Fisher can't do without Kobe. It's still a team sport.

[picc84]

You keep asking us to tell you why Fisher is clutch, yet you haven't given any good examples of why he isn't clutch..Fisher's clutch shots and intangibles are clearly a better argument than anything you can come up with for why Fisher isn't clutch

The missed shots, defensive blunders, and horrible end of game decisions i'm pretty sure I mentioned. Just off the top of my head he's blown games vs Denver, Boston, and Portland this year and almost cost us games vs a few others. That crap you saw today fouling Webster with no reason to was just par for the course for him, he blatantly fouls people at the end of the game almost every other game, its come to be expected.

He can make clutch shots. But its much more likely he'll do something stupid to fuck us.

[midnightpulp]

Didn't read the whole thread yet, but I've always felt that "clutch" (for the most part) is a product of selective memory and hype.

In my mind, a player who goes 15 for 20 throughout the game but happens to miss 5 straight shots down the stretch is a lot more "clutch" than a player who goes 7 for 20 but made 5 straight buckets in the closing moments to win the game. No one moment is more important than the next in a basketball game. The whole "when it counts" time frame of the 4th quarter is nonsense. The first 5 min of the 1st quarter are just as important as the last 5 min of the 4th.

[midnightpulp]

Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" again :lol It's a two-way street.

Spoken for truth.

With all due respect to Kobe and his fans, I just never thought he was that "clutch" (which is a tenuous concept at best that really can't be empirically proven). The stats show that he shoots the league average on game winners (around 30%); for the past few years, Lebron and Melo both have better numbers on 82games.com clutch stats, but yet the perception the media and his fans have created is of a player who rarely falters in big situations and is the "best closer in the game." Spurs fans do the same thing with Manu.

Not taking anything away from Bryant, but his clutch status has been severely overhyped and overrated.

[Tmac&Luther]

Didn't read the whole thread yet, but I've always felt that "clutch" (for the most part) is a product of selective memory and hype.

In my mind, a player who goes 15 for 20 throughout the game but happens to miss 5 straight shots down the stretch is a lot more "clutch" than a player who goes 7 for 20 but made 5 straight buckets in the closing moments to win the game. No one moment is more important than the next in a basketball game. The whole "when it counts" time frame of the 4th quarter is nonsense. The first 5 min of the 1st quarter are just as important as the last 5 min of the 4th.

LOL, Apparently you've never been stuck in a fox hole/hairy situation left depending on another person. People hate the war to sports analogy and some guy said there's no proven fact of being clutch in this thread, but why do you think that the US government does stress tests.

People react to stress differently than others and that's a scientific proven fact (some people get elevated heartbeats...others stay as cool as a cucumber) and it's ridiculous to say the stress level in the first couple of minutes of a ball game is remotely comparable to the amount of stress that's put on players in the closing moments of a close game :lol.....sorry, but that's just ridiculous and naive.

Some people/players can just deal with the stress applied better than other people/players. That's the difference between being "clutch or not a choker" and being just another guy. When you are in a do or die/win or lose situation the stress level is TOTALLY DIFFERENT....and the people that can deal with that stress are the people you want next to you or on your team in those situations.

It's all about dealing with stress and sorry pal, but when you need a basket to win a game or survive to move on......it's not the same as the shots you throw up in the 1st quarter when you are just feeling out the opposition and know you have PLENTY of time to build a lead.

[milkshakeballa]

Spoken for truth.

With all due respect to Kobe and his fans, I just never thought he was that "clutch" (which is a tenuous concept at best that really can't be empirically proven). The stats show that he shoots the league average on game winners (around 30%); for the past few years, Lebron and Melo both have better numbers on 82games.com clutch stats, but yet the perception the media and his fans have created is of a player who rarely falters in big situations and is the "best closer in the game." Spurs fans do the same thing with Manu.

Not taking anything away from Bryant, but his clutch status has been severely overhyped and overrated.

You would be hard pressed to find any NBA player...GM..scout or coach taken any player of Kobe in crunchtime.

Simple as that.

[midnightpulp]

LOL, Apparently you've never been stuck in a fox hole/hairy situation left depending on another person. People hate the war to sports analogy and some guy said there's no proven fact of being clutch, but why do you think that the US government does stress tests.

People react to stress differently than others and it's ridiculous to say the stress level in the first couple of minutes of a ball game is remotely comparable to the amount of stress that's put on players in the closing moments of a close game.....sorry, but that's just ridiculous and naive.

Some people/players can just deal with it better than other people/players. That's the difference between being "clutch or not a choker" and being another guy. When you are in a do or die/win or lose situation the stress level is TOTALLY DIFFERENT....and the people that can deal with that stress are the people you want next to you or on your team in those situations.

It's all about dealing with stress and sorry pal, but when you need a basket to win a game or survive to move on......it's not the same.

Foxhole analogy doesn't work. I'm talking about "clutch", or a term I much prefer "performing under pressure," as it relates to sports, which can never be as stressful as a combat situation. The body reacts differently under a real life threatening situation than it does under competitive pressure. War and sports are simply two totally different scenarios that can't be compared.

And clutch really can't proven. The sample size of shots attempted (or FTs, or Assists dished out, or steals, etc) for any one given player is too small to extract any meaningful results. At those numbers, luck plays a big part in the outcome.

I agree that they are better performers under pressure. Some people are simply blessed with better fine motor skills that don't get affected as much as the next guy when the pressure's on. But "clutch" as the media and sports fans have defined it is a bit of an illusion. You can't logically state that a player who shoots below his season average in a game but hits the game winner is "clutch." Law of averages dictate that the shot had a pretty good chance of going in.

For me a clutch performance is a player exceeding a good amount of his season averages in a game. I don't agree with how the perception of "clutch" is reduced to the 4th quarter or the closing moments of a game.

[midnightpulp]

You would be hard pressed to find any NBA player...GM..scout or coach taken any player of Kobe in crunchtime.

Simple as that.

Coaches and GMs have indulged in hype before. Nothing new. They do it all time when the media sticks a microphone in their face or interviews them.

Kobe is 30% lifetime on game winners. He's right at the league average. He's made the most but also missed the most. There's nothing to suggest that Kobe is anymore dangerous in those situations than another top-tier player, many of whom have better overall "crunch time" stats than Kobe.

I've been watching him his entire career and I've said Kobe is the best selective memory player of all time. His game winners are more spectacular and memorable than most and he makes you forget about the 3 missed shots leading up to that point (or his 10 for 27 shooting night), which has happened A LOT throughout his career.

[Tmac&Luther]

Foxhole analogy doesn't work. I'm talking about "clutch", or a term I much prefer "performing under pressure," as it relates to sports, which can never be as stressful as a combat situation. The body reacts differently under a real life threatening situation than it does under competitive pressure. War and sports are simply two totally different scenarios that can't be compared.

And clutch really can't proven. The sample size of shots attempted (or FTs, or Assists dished out, or steals, etc) for any one given player is too small to extract any meaningful results. At those numbers, luck plays a big part in the outcome.

I agree that they are better performers under pressure. Some people are simply blessed with better fine motor skills that don't get affected as much as the next guy when the pressure's on. But "clutch" as the media and sports fans have defined it is a bit of an illusion. You can't logically state that a player who shoots below his season average in a game but hits the game winner is "clutch." Law of averages dictate that the shot had a pretty good chance of going in.

For me a clutch performance is a player exceeding a good amount of his season averages in a game. I don't agree with how the perception of "clutch" is reduced to the 4th quarter or the closing moments of a game.

:rollin War and sports CAN be compared (and this is coming from somebody who serves), people just don't like to hear the comparisons because it's not politically correct and some people find it offensive, but military people and the sports community draw those comparisons ALL THE TIME

Why do you think the sports world uses the words like "leader" and "veteran"...or how we have been through the "battles" to act like they aren't comparable is a joke...it's all competition, the only difference is when you lose in war, you die. Still competition that raises stress levels.

Also being clutch has NOTHING to do with season averages, so I really don't understand that argument, it has to do with a player having a knack to hit big shots......does that mean he makes all the big shots? nope, but he'll hit more than his fair share. I mean how are you going to type something like this...


I agree that they are better performers under pressure. Some people are simply blessed with better fine motor skills that don't get affected as much as the next guy when the pressure's on.

and then say you don't think there's anything as being "clutch".

Stress is stress. I don't care if someone has a gun pointed at you......you have to make that game winning shot....or you have a big test to take tomorrow that will decide if you get that degree or not (which BTW, some students are now taking anti anxiety medicine at test time) Stress is stress and the people that can deal with stress better during what situation they may be in at the time can naturally handle that situation better.

Stress has scientifically been proven to have a effect on people and it's been proven that people can handle stress differently, so it's crazy to think that in late game situations, some players don't NATURALLY handle those situations better than others.

[Muser]

The missed shots, defensive blunders, and horrible end of game decisions i'm pretty sure I mentioned. Just off the top of my head he's blown games vs Denver, Boston, and Portland this year and almost cost us games vs a few others. That crap you saw today fouling Webster with no reason to was just par for the course for him, he blatantly fouls people at the end of the game almost every other game, its come to be expected.

He can make clutch shots. But its much more likely he'll do something stupid to fuck us.

Let me ask you this, do you consider Ginobili clutch?

[midnightpulp]

:rollin War and sports CAN be compared (and this is coming from somebody who serves), people just don't like to hear the comparisons because it's not politically correct and some people find it offensive, but military people and the sports community draw those comparisons ALL THE TIME

Why do you think the sports world uses the words like "leader" and "veteran"...or how we have been through the "battles" to act like they aren't comparable is a joke...it's all competition, the only difference is when you lose in war, you die. Still competition that raises stress levels.

Also being clutch has NOTHING to do with season averages, so I really don't understand that argument, it has to do with a player having a knack to hit big shots......does that mean he makes all the big shots? nope, but he'll hit more than his fair share. I mean how are you going to type something like this...



and then say you don't think there's anything as being "clutch".

Stress is stress. I don't care if someone has a gun pointed at you......you have to make that game winning shot....or you have a big test to take tomorrow that will decide if you get that degree or not (which BTW, some students are now taking anti anxiety medicine at test time) Stress is stress and the people that can deal with stress better during what situation they may be in at the time can naturally handle that situation better.

Stress has scientifically been proven to have a effect on people and it's been proven that people can handle stress differently, so it's crazy to think that in late game situations, some players don't NATURALLY handle those situations better than others.

We're getting off track here. We're not talking about the validity of symbolic comparisons between war and sports. You compared being in a foxhole with taking a big shot in a basketball game. No matter how big that shot is, the body won't react the same way as if it's having its life threatened. The reactions might be somewhat similar, but not identical. Never seen someone throw up at the charity stripe before attempting a critical freethrow, Or a veteran basketball player complain of PTSD. Stress is stress but there are different levels of stress.

And clutch has EVERYTHING to do with season/career averages. Those averages give us a baseline of what to expect from a player. I'm sure you heard the term "elevate your game?" Well if a 20-10 player during the regular season averages 30-15 during a championship run, he raised his game and is thus a "clutch performer."

Anyhow, I pretty much agree with you. Some people, for whatever reason, are able to keep it together under pressure better than others. My argument centers on how the media and fans alike have labeled players and performances "clutch" when they really aren't, and also how that definition seems only to reserved for late game situations. Never heard Shaq being called "clutch" but he was the driving force behind 3 straight titles. When a player puts up the numbers he did during the 3 peat, that's "clutch," regardless of how many freethrows he missed or game winners he didn't hit.

I just believe the label shouldn't be thrown around so easily. A 45% shooter who goes 4-18 but hits a game winner shouldn't be called "clutch." Given his shooting average, it's a shot he should make. Chauncy Billups is a good example, "Mr Big Shot." The media has everyone believing he's this cold blooded SOB who'll stick a game winner in your face no matter the circumstances. Well, his FG% on game winners is a putrid 16%.

That's my point about this notion of "clutch" being somewhat of an illusion. It's mostly a product of selective memory and media hype.

[Tmac&Luther]

We're getting off track here. We're not talking about the validity of symbolic comparisons between war and sports. You compared being in a foxhole with taking a big shot in a basketball game. No matter how big that shot is, the body won't react the same way as if it's having its life threatened. The reactions might be somewhat similar, but not identical. Never seen someone throw up at the charity stripe before attempting a critical freethrow, Or a veteran basketball player complain of PTSD. Stress is stress but there are different levels of stress.

And clutch has EVERYTHING to do with season/career averages. Those averages give us a baseline of what to expect from a player. I'm sure you heard the term "elevate your game?" Well if a 20-10 player during the regular season averages 30-15 during a championship run, he raised his game and is thus a "clutch performer."

Anyhow, I pretty much agree with you. Some people, for whatever reason, are able to keep it together under pressure better than others. My argument centers on how the media and fans alike have labeled players and performances "clutch" when they really aren't, and also how that definition seems only to reserved for late game situations. Never heard Shaq being called "clutch" but he was the driving force behind 3 straight titles. When a player puts up the numbers he did during the 3 peat, that's "clutch," regardless of how many freethrows he missed or game winners he didn't hit.

I just believe the label shouldn't be thrown around so easily. A 45% shooter who goes 4-18 but hits a game winner shouldn't be called "clutch." Given his shooting average, it's a shot he should make. Chauncy Billups is a good example, "Mr Big Shot." The media has everyone believing he's this cold blooded SOB who'll stick a game winner in your face no matter the circumstances. Well, his FG% on game winners is a putrid 16%.

That's my point about this notion of "clutch" being somewhat of an illusion. It's mostly a product of selective memory and media hype.


I never said the situations were "identical" I said both situations create stress and stress has a effort on the body. They create different levels of stress, but stress nonetheless.

[monosylab1k]

:lol Who said someone always has to convert every FG to be clutch....That's like saying a MLB hitter has to bat 1000 to be considered a great hitter.

False. There's a bar set for great hitters, generally the bar used is batting .300.

"Clutch" plays are judged individually. When Kobe hits a gamewinner one night, he's clutch. When Kobe bricks a couple late free throws to lose a game, doesn't that automatically mean he choked? Yes it does.

In the world of clutch/choke, those are the only two outcomes. Either you're clutch or you choke. Meaning if you choke just once, you've still been a "choker". Which is why that line of thinking is stupid. So even if Kobe is "clutch" 80% of the time and "chokes" 20% of the time, to call him a clutch player is dumb. If I gave you a drink that was 80% water and 20% dog shit, would you drink it?

There's guys who crumble under pressure, and guys who don't. That's all. The clutch label is stupid.

[TDMVPDPOY]

clutch performance is bs anyway

if you are that good, ur team shouldnt even be playin from behind

[in2deep]

Fisher has as much or even more confidence than Kobe/Phil

He is arguably the heart and soul of the laker team. Lose Fish and you have a big mental hole.

[pookenstein]

Define "choker".

Dirk Nowitzki, NBA Finals 2006, Game 3 shooting Free Throws to win the game.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk Nowitzki, NBA Finals 2006, Game 3 shooting Free Throws to win the game.

Tim Duncan, Western Conference Semi-Finals 2006, Game 7 Overtime getting owned by DeSagana Diop.

[nkdlunch]

Tim Duncan, Western Conference Semi-Finals 2006, Game 7 Overtime getting owned by DeSagana Diop.

disagree.

Choking is a 60+ win #1 NBA seed losing to an 8th seed

Choking is a team collapsing in the NBA Finals after a 2 game lead and 20+pt lead in game 3

losing in game 7 overtime to a younger more athletic team is not choking. For example the Detroit Pistons, did not choke in the 2005 Finals.

[HarlemHeat37]

disagree.

Choking is a 60+ win #1 NBA seed losing to an 8th seed

Choking is a team collapsing in the NBA Finals after a 2 game lead and 20+pt lead in game 3

losing in game 7 overtime to a younger more athletic team is not choking. For example the Detroit Pistons, did not choke in the 2005 Finals.

:wow Did this actually happen?..Sounds impossible..

[monosylab1k]

disagree.

Choking is a 60+ win #1 NBA seed losing to an 8th seed

Choking is a team collapsing in the NBA Finals after a 2 game lead and 20+pt lead in game 3

losing in game 7 overtime to a younger more athletic team is not choking. For example the Detroit Pistons, did not choke in the 2005 Finals.

Answer the question - Did Hall Of Famer Tim Duncan get owned in overtime of a Game 7 (far and away the biggest of all pressure situations) AT HOME by a guy who for his career averages 2 points and 4 rebounds a game?

[nkdlunch]

:wow Did this actually happen?..Sounds impossible..

want to get even more shocked? those 2 things happened in back-to-back years by the same set of players :lol

if that's not being a choker, I don't know what is

[monosylab1k]

:wow Did this actually happen?..Sounds impossible..

tbh no, it didn't happen. Fat Spurfan needs to put down the enchilada plate and do some research and get his shit straight before trying to talk crap.

[nkdlunch]

Answer the question - Did Hall Of Famer Tim Duncan get owned in overtime of a Game 7 (far and away the biggest of all pressure situations) AT HOME by a guy who for his career averages 2 points and 4 rebounds a game?

the whole spurs team got owned in that OT. Doesn't mean they choked. They were tired and got outplayed.

Singling out Duncan is pretty silly IMO.

[monosylab1k]

want to get even more shocked? those 2 things happened in back-to-back years by the same set of players :lol

no, it didn't. I understand it's your 2 hour long burrito facestuffing event that most people call gluttony, but people in SA just call lunch, but that doesn't excuse you from posting bullshit.

[monosylab1k]

the whole spurs team got owned in that OT.

#1 seed at home got owned in a game 7. chokejob. thanks for playing.

[Muser]

tbh no, it didn't happen. Fat Spurfan needs to put down the enchilada plate and do some research and get his shit straight before trying to talk crap.


What did happen then?

[nkdlunch]

tbh no, it didn't happen. Fat Spurfan needs to put down the enchilada plate and do some research and get his shit straight before trying to talk crap.

"In the greatest playoff upset in NBA history, the Golden State Warriors completely dismantled the No. 1 seed Dallas Mavericks on Thursday en route to a 111-86 Game 6 victory in front of a boisterous home crowd. Stephen Jackson played like a man possessed, drilling 7-of-8 3-pointers to total 33 points. Hobbled by a strained hamstring, Baron Davis gave an inspired performance by tallying 20 points, 10 rebounds and six assists, while his former college roommate, Matt Barnes, collected 16 points, 11 rebounds and seven assists. It is only the third time in NBA history that an No. 8 seed has bested a No. 1 seed, and the first time ever in a seven-game series.

Dallas, which won a franchise-best 67 games this season and was the defending Western Conference Champions, was led by Jerry Stackhouse's and Josh Howard's 20 points. MVP candidate Dirk Nowitzki struggled, shooting 2-of-13 from the field, finishing with eight points and 10 rebounds. The Mavs join the 1994 Sonics and the 1999 Heat as the only other top seeds to fall to an No. 8 seed in the playoffs."

:lol

[monosylab1k]

"In the greatest playoff upset in NBA history, the Golden State Warriors completely dismantled the No. 1 seed Dallas Mavericks on Thursday en route to a 111-86 Game 6 victory in front of a boisterous home crowd.
Stephen Jackson played like a man possessed, drilling 7-of-8 3-pointers to total 33 points. Hobbled by a strained hamstring, Baron Davis gave an inspired performance by tallying 20 points, 10 rebounds and six assists, while his former college roommate, Matt Barnes, collected 16 points, 11 rebounds and seven assists. It is only the third time in NBA history that an No. 8 seed has bested a No. 1 seed, and the first time ever in a seven-game series.

Dallas, which won a franchise-best 67 games this season and was the defending Western Conference Champions, was led by Jerry Stackhouse's and Josh Howard's 20 points. MVP candidate Dirk Nowitzki struggled, shooting 2-of-13 from the field, finishing with eight points and 10 rebounds. The Mavs join the 1994 Sonics and the 1999 Heat as the only other top seeds to fall to an No. 8 seed in the playoffs."

not the part you got wrong, dipshit. just finish your fourth burrito and then try to figure it out. I know it's tough for you to think on only a 3/4 full stomach.

[nkdlunch]

tbh no, it didn't happen. Fat Spurfan needs to put down the enchilada plate and do some research and get his shit straight before trying to talk crap.

"In what proved to be the turning point of the series, Miami rebounded from a 13-point fourth quarter deficit over the final 6:15 to record a 98-96 victory over the Mavs in front of a sellout crowd of 20,145 at the AmericanAirlines Arena. The 13-point deficit marked the largest fourth quarter deficit overcome in HEAT postseason history. "

:lol

[Sportstudi]

the whole spurs team got owned in that OT. Doesn't mean they choked. They were tired and got outplayed.

Singling out Duncan is pretty silly IMO.

Just a question: If the Spurs had beaten Dallas in game 7, would have Dallas choked or they were just tired and outplayed?

[nkdlunch]

Just a question: If the Spurs had beaten Dallas in game 7, would have Dallas choked or they were just tired and outplayed?

Choke. Dallas would have choked a 3-1 series lead. :)

[Sportstudi]

Choke. Dallas would have choked a 3-1 series lead. :)

I didn't expect another answer. So, the Spurs are allowed to take tiredness as an excuse whilst Dallas (in cas they had lost) is not.

The logic of a Spurs fan: Everything is allowed to be used as an explanation if my team has lost a game. The other way aorund it is not, because I can't allow other teams to get away without being labeled as a choker.

[BanditHiro]

Just a question: If the Spurs had beaten Dallas in game 7, would have Dallas choked or they were just tired and outplayed?

well yea only because Dallas was up 3-1 in the series.

[in2deep]

:lmao

holy shit. I had forgot how pathetic the Mavs have been.

[Sportstudi]

well yea only because Dallas was up 3-1 in the series.

At least you said only. I'm sure nkdlunch would search for another reason for the whole next week if necessary just for the sake of bashing Dallas.

[nkdlunch]

At least you said only. I'm sure nkdlunch would search for another reason for the whole next week if necessary just for the sake of bashing Dallas.

not bashing Dallas BTW. They are a great franchise.

Just responding to a delusional Mav fan that refuses to beleive those world class choke jobs happened.

[J_Paco]

Answer the question - Did Hall Of Famer Tim Duncan get owned in overtime of a Game 7 (far and away the biggest of all pressure situations) AT HOME by a guy who for his career averages 2 points and 4 rebounds a game?

The biggest difference for both Duncan and Diop were that Duncan played 49 minutes put up 41 points, 15 rebounds, 3 blocks and 6 assists, while Diop played just 10 minutes and put up 7 points, 4 rebounds and 2 blocks.

So, basically Duncan had to over-exert himself during regulation, allowing a bum like Diop to take advantage of a gassed Duncan during overtime. Oh, and Duncan was playing with PF throughout the regular season and playoffs without rest. But, I'm sure you dumb ass Maverick fans still can't comprehend why he was "outplayed?"

Here's my definition of clutch:

Clutch - Tim Duncan, 4 NBA championships (3 Finals MVP)

http://www.blogcdn.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2009/12/duncan-trophy-1209-580.jpg

Plus, here's what a choke-artist is:

Choke-artists - Dallas Maverick organization, 0 NBA championships

http://www.brewskeeball.com/images/custom/reggie.jpg

[monosylab1k]

Choking is a team collapsing in the NBA Finals after a 2 game lead and 20+pt lead in game 3


"In what proved to be the turning point of the series, Miami rebounded from a 13-point fourth quarter deficit over the final 6:15 to record a 98-96 victory over the Mavs in front of a sellout crowd of 20,145 at the AmericanAirlines Arena. The 13-point deficit marked the largest fourth quarter deficit overcome in HEAT postseason history. "

Apparently the education system in San Antonio is even worse than we all thought. I guess it's tough to get in any learning with a 4 hour lunch buffet every day.

[monosylab1k]

Just responding to a delusional Mav fan that refuses to beleive those world class choke jobs happened.

It didn't happen the way you wrote it, cheesedick.

[nkdlunch]

my bad homosylab1k.

regardless doesn't change the fact that Mavs are chokers by definition.

I stand corrected:

"the Heat rallied from a 13-point deficit with six minutes to go in the fourth quarter"

:lol

[monosylab1k]

my bad homosylab1k.

regardless doesn't change the fact that Mavs are chokers by definition.

I stand corrected:

"the Heat rallied from a 13-point deficit with six minutes to go in the fourth quarter"

:lol

Thanks for admitting you had your shit wrong and made yourself sound fucking retarded.

Return to your tamales.

[nkdlunch]

Thanks for admitting you had your shit wrong and made yourself sound fucking retarded.

Return to your tamales.

LMAO truth hurts huh?

:downspin:

[monosylab1k]

LMAO truth hurts huh?

:downspin:

No, it didn't hurt to discover you were a dipshit fat beaner who got his facts wrong.

[nkdlunch]

back to the subject... let's take a closer look at how a team chokes in the NBA's biggest stage: (fast forward to 6 mins to go in the quarter)

O0s6CstZAvk

[picc84]

Let me ask you this, do you consider Ginobili clutch?

Extremely.

Not because of just shot-making. But all the other things i've mentioned that make Fisher a brain-fart factory. I've seen Manu make clutch passes, snatch clutch rebounds, make clutch defensive plays, hit clutch shots, etc. Decision-making is a huge part of it.

These are the things that make you clutch, not just hitting a jumpshot at the end of a game.

[HarlemHeat37]

Derek Fisher averaging 10 PPG on 57% TS so far in the playoffs..he's still got the playoff magic..

I can't believe I had to defend him to Laker fans, they should know what he brings to the table..as somebody that hates the Lakers, I'll be happy the day Fisher is no longer with the team, the guy is a legit role player playoff performer, the Lakers true leader..

I'd like to see some apologies to Fish..

[MadDog73]

Kobe fans wish the NBA was one-on-one.

Really, Kobe love is beyond ridiculous.

It's a TEAM game, people. TEAM.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Derek Fisher averaging 10 PPG on 57% TS so far in the playoffs..he's still got the playoff magic..

I can't believe I had to defend him to Laker fans, they should know what he brings to the table..as somebody that hates the Lakers, I'll be happy the day Fisher is no longer with the team, the guy is a legit role player playoff performer, the Lakers true leader..

I'd like to see some apologies to Fish..

This isn't football. Basketball is not a one-way sport. Fisher's defensive liabilities cost the Lakers dearly on a regular basis.

That said, Fisher is not as bad as many make him out to be. He and Kobe both have picked it up recently.

Also, Fisher stopped another 3-on-1 fastbreak by himself yesterday. I still say there's no one better in the league at doing that. He may be a bad defender but he's just uncanny at breaking up impossible-to-defend fastbreaks.

[picc84]

He destroyed our own 3-on-1 fastbreak at the end too. There's also no one better at that.

[MadDog73]

I can't believe I'm defending Fisher, but doesn't he have the Laker's best 3 pt percentage in the playoffs?

If Fisher sucks, where does that leave the Lakers w/o him?

[picc84]

Fisher had a good shooting series vs OKC, compared to his average.

How that changes the fact he was statistically the worst starter in the NBA this season, was the worst starter in last years playoffs and regular season, and single-handedly increased Russell Westbrooks trade value 3-fold is a mystery known only to you.

[HarlemHeat37]

It doesn't change that..

The point I'm making is that he still makes big plays in the playoffs AND he's still an upgrade over Farmar/Brown..

He's played well in the playoffs so far and he's made some timely shots, as usual..

[mavsluva]

Does that really make you clutch?

Is that the bare bones minimum for what it takes? Thats an average of once every 5 years.

How is clutch defined - do you include defensive plays as well? What about shots missed during that time. Do those things factor in as well?

At some point do the positives become a fluke? When the negatives are much, much more common?

No, it just makes you most fortunate.

[HarlemHeat37]

Fisher coming through AGAIN..ageless wonder..

[resistanze]

lol

[Mel_13]

.

[HarlemHeat37]

Fish being Fish..

Laker fans ungrateful, as usual..this is like how a few Spurs fans shit on Bruce Bowen, except in LA's case, it was pretty much their entire fanbase that did it all year..

[DAF86]

Fish being Fish..

Laker fans ungrateful, as usual..this is like how a few Spurs fans shit on Bruce Bowen, except in LA's case, it was pretty much their entire fanbase that did it all year..

To elevate Kobe they have to bring their teammates down.

[Bob Lanier]

Once again, there's no such thing as clutch, but Fisher's played well.

[hitmanyr2k]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. All the Laker "fans" that cursed Fisher all year long to prop up Kobe should be lined up and bitch slapped.

[HarlemHeat37]

As a Spur fan, I know exactly how it feels to have a guy like Fisher on my team..we had Bowen and Horry for years, and the majority of Spurs fans appreciated everything they gave to this team..

Even last year, when Bowen still had legs but was clearly past his prime, most Spur fans still wanted him on the team and wanted him to start..the majority of Laker fans(and this isn't hyperbole, go to a Laker forum and look at the Fisher hate all year) wanted Fisher benched or even off the team..

Just a disgusting fanbase, they don't deserve a successful team like they have..it will be evident again once the Lakers win the title and they destroy their own fucking city for the millionth time..