The Official Brent Barry Exposé

[timvp]

There has been a lot of talk about the play of Brent Barry. Some posters think that Barry sucks and is just the placeholder starter until Manu Ginobili comes in. Some posters think that Brent Barry does a lot of help the Spurs win and is a vital cog.

What is the truth? What numbers can you point out to prove your point?

Let the answers begin.

[exstatic]

Milk carton forum.

[ducks]

big dog is the answer
barry ,hedo,mercer are not

[mookie2001]

1.000 playoff win % with brent as starting 2


hey timvp can you hook up any pics of brents wife?

[T Park]

Brent Barry does a lot of help the Spurs win and is a vital cog

He can be, when he wants to be.

But when he is floating around and just bricking jumpers like last night, thats the problem I have with him.

When he is agressive and giving a crap like Game 4 and game 2, then he is great.

[exstatic]

1.000 playoff win % with brent as starting 2

They had the same through 6 playoff games with Hedo last year. Not really a meaningful 'stat'.

[ducks]

barry brought it one out of 5 games against the nuggets

that was about his regular season average

smith atleast went off against his former team and told people how to shoot

[timvp]

If you take out the game that Pop put Barry into the starting lineup, surprising George Karl and pretty much everyone else, Barry's numbers so far in the playoffs are pretty horrible.

MPG -- 23.5
PPG -- 4.0
FG% -- 35.7%
3P% -- 10.0%

I'm not sure how someone could defend those numbers.

[ducks]

and that was after a good game :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[Manu20]

Barry better go off on his old team or I will lose my confidence in him. :depressed

[exstatic]

But when he is floating around and just bricking jumpers like last night, thats the problem I have with him.

I have a problem with a player that is SO passive, that the team makes a change to their lineup, in the playoffs, so that his poor defense is covered by 2 All Defensive players, and the scoring from him isn't neccessary with that unit.

[mookie2001]

until they lose with manu coming off the bench, you have to stick with it



like a mrs barry thread, i saw her only once on TV, shes hot

[timvp]

I don't think that Barry is the type of player that will step up and try to bury his former team. Jon Barry? Yeah. Steve Smith? Yeah. Brent Barry? Nah.

His numbers versus the Sonics so far this year are pretty bad -- 36% from the field and beyond the arc.

[ShoogarBear]

Good thing for Brent that he's good quote material for the media. It seems to be shielding him from being asked why he sucks so much.

[T Park]

MPG -- 23.5
PPG -- 4.0
FG% -- 35.7%
3P% -- 10.0%


But but but but, he set a fabulous pic on Kenyon Martin.

[ducks]

those numbers are stupid
why did brent barry even make the playoff roster
big dog BETTER GET MORE MINUTES

[PM5K]

Brent isn't aggressive enough, don't get me wrong he's a good player to have on the court because he is a smart basketball player, but he has the potential to be so much better but he lacks aggressiveness.

[mookie2001]

yeah barry been playing like shit lately, but he's like a 2nd point out there and he spreads the D
anyway the arguement should be how well manu is playing coming off, pop really did create the best bench in the nba

[timvp]

Hedo in round one last year:

10.0 PPG
5.8 RPG
2.0 APG
41.9 FG%
42.9 3P%

[Kori Ellis]

Barry is a non-factor sometimes and players horrible D more often than not. But I still believe there will be a game or two in this playoff run where he will come up HUGE for the Spurs.

[thispego]

I don't think that Barry is the type of player that will step up and try to bury his former team. Jon Barry? Yeah. Steve Smith? Yeah. Brent Barry? Nah.

His numbers versus the Sonics so far this year are pretty bad -- 36% from the field and beyond the arc.
I beg to differ, it's not that brent CANT step up, it's that he doesnt know how too, he really really wants to contribute every game, he just has'nt always been able get his shot to fall, the only time he has been able to connect is when the team really needed him too. Barry will come through in crunch time, mark my words, he will not let down

In the mean time, he will continue to do the little things that keep our offense going

[picnroll]

I'm not sure how someone could defend those numbers.
You've obviously never met Mr. Whottt.

[T Park]

he will continue to do the little things that keep our offense going


Yeah that 3 on 1 break where he ran straight into Nene was a perfect example of him keeping the offense going no question.

[mookie2001]

manus gonna play more min anyway, its more to rattle the opponent
pops not gonna be scared to take barrys ass out in the first minute if hes screwing up

ill be the first one to admit i was wrong if barry has a bad game and the spurs lose
but you gotta give him the benefit of the doubt

[exstatic]

In the mean time, he will continue to do the little things that keep our offense going

Like what? Staying out of the way?

Kori, I hope you're right, but if he doesn't, they need to ship him out this summer for an ending contract, so that maybe next year they can sign a player who contributes, like Nazr.

[Guru of Nothing]

There has been a lot of talk about the play of Brent Barry. Some posters think that Barry sucks and is just the placeholder starter until Manu Ginobili comes in. Some posters think that Brent Barry does a lot of help the Spurs win and is a vital cog.

What is the truth? What numbers can you point out to prove your point?

Let the answers begin.

Sorry, no numbers, but I think fans are impetuous with their opinions about Barry.

Barry, by NBA standards, is a very good basketball player. Yeah, we Spur fans are still watching the kinks get worked out. Let's accept it and move on.

In the overall scheme of things, I'm hoping we can resign Glenn Robinson with the MLE. The thought of Barry and Robinson coming off the bench is staggering.

Think about it - starting line-up strangles the opposition's offense, then we go yin-yang on their ass and score 20 points in 6 minutes against their bench.

Fun times.

[picnroll]

If Devin were healthy Brent would be buried under the towels by now.

[timvp]

If Devin were healthy Brent would be buried under the towels by now.

I said the same the other day. Barry is just lucky Devin is hurt. With his no offense and no defense play of late, he'd be sitting next to Massenburg if Devin were healthy.

[exstatic]

I think he might even be sitting next to Marks and The Third.

[exstatic]

Yeah, we Spur fans are still watching the kinks get worked out. Let's accept it and move on.

The kinks? Fucking Glen Robinson has been here not much longer than a cup of coffee, and HE fucking gets it. Compared to Barry, he looks like he's been here for three seasons.

Brent is scurred.

[Guru of Nothing]

Apparently I am not drinking enough.

[gilmor]

We should get rid of Barry and re-sign Stephen Jackson

[Manu20]

We should get rid of Barry and re-sign Stephen Jackson
I think jackson signed a multiyear contract with the Pacers. 6 years I believe.

[timvp]

Brent Barry in the fourth quarters of games 1, 3, 4 and 5 has produced the following:

0 points
0-2 FGs
3 ast
1 reb
1 block
1 turnover

[mookie2001]

the third could start his first game and come with 12 pts and 12 rebounds
he won the chicago one on one championship
i think

[whottt]

LOL This is great...the same people that proclaimed Pop a genius and "problem solved" by the decision to start Barry are now saying he sucks...as I said at the time...it ultimately makes no difference in who starts. And it's not gonna solve the problem.

Hey TimVP...can I have a dollar for every time you waffled on Barry? I know for a fact there was a thread last week where you said you always believed he would come through or something to that effect?

Yes Manu has brought energy off the bench...but if we'd started better the energy of the bench might not have been such a necessity.

But anyway...

Ok so take away Barry's good game from his total of 21 shots...

That leaves him 14 shots total for the other 4 games of the series...or just under 4 per game...or to put it another way...about as many shots as Parker and Manu are averaging per game.

That means he has gone 5 - 14 in the other 4 games or @1-4 per game...missing 3 shots per game...so while your FG% numbers are telling...the fact that they are so few shots per game renders those % meaningless...

What isn't meaningless is that he's averaging 1.51 PPS for third on the team and is one of the leading passers.

I wonder how many times a Spurs player has started out 1-4 in this series...imagine if that was all the shots they got...

Tell you what...why don't you guys ask yourselves why Bowen is only averaging 3 shots per game...it aint because Barry's taking those shots...

I could break down what Barry has done late in these games with his passing...but ultimately what's the point? It's not gonna change it...

You guys are Devin Brown homers and it aint going to change....


Keep on hating...just please try to be consistent about it...the endless flipflopping on it is tedious...

[Guru of Nothing]

Brent Barry in the fourth quarters of games 1, 3, 4 and 5 has produced the following:

0 points
0-2 FGs
3 ast
1 reb
1 block
1 turnover

Why don't you slice and dice Kerr's numbers from 2003. What were Duncan;s numbers in games 1 and 3?

Just go with the flow.

You are a fan, not a GM. Recognize! :drunk

[mookie2001]

hey you can come up with statistics to prove anything, 76% of people know that

me and bill gates have an average networth of about 4 billion

[picnroll]

Whottt how many points is he giving up at the other end? Do you really want to see him spending much time guarding Lewis or Allen? The fact is he's more passive than even Hedo was.

[whottt]

If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Virtually every time we pulled him the Nuggets made a run on us...a substantial run.

And you know what picnroll...Barry's defense has been pretty good in this series IMO...but what do I know...

I'm the idiot that thinks blowing leads is a bad thing...

[ShoogarBear]

I am watching Barry play at this very moment and he is clutch and a decent defender. WTF are you guys talking about?

[picnroll]

I repeat Jon Barry >>>>>>>> Brent Barry

[Guru of Nothing]

I am watching Barry play at this very moment and he is clutch and a decent defender. WTF are you guys talking about?

No shit!!

[timvp]

LOL This is great...the same people that proclaimed Pop a genius and "problem solved" by the decision to start Barry are now saying he sucks...as I said at the time...it ultimately makes no difference in who starts. And it's not gonna solve the problem.

The Spurs won the series, didn't they? It solved some kind of problem, obviously.

But yeah, you had given up. You said the Nuggets were going to win. You jumped off the bandwagon.


Hey TimVP...can I have a dollar for every time you waffled on Barry? I know for a fact there was a thread last week where you said you always believed he would come through or something to that effect?

I said I believe he'll step up. I still do.

That doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much sucked so far in the playoffs. As I said earlier, it'll probably take him time until he feels comfortable in the playoffs.

It was the same story in the preseason. It was the same story in the regular season. It'll be the same story in the postseason. He's fragile.

That's not waffling.

Apologize.



Yes Manu has brought energy off the bench...but if we'd started better the energy of the bench might not have been such a necessity.

The Spurs work much better with Manu off the bench. If it took one loss in the playoffs to figure that out, it was worth it.

But then again, one loss and you gave up.


But anyway...

Ok so take away Barry's good game from his total of 21 shots...

That leaves him 14 shots total for the other 4 games of the series...or just under 4 per game...or to put it another way...about as many shots as Parker and Manu are averaging per game.

Yeah, and?

Barry has a green light. He is free to shoot when he wants. Whose fault is it that he's scared to shoot and scared to put the ball on the ground? The only shots he's made other than game two was that one three pointer. Every other shot was within two feet.


That means he has gone 5 - 14 in the other 4 games or @1-4 per game...missing 3 shots per game...so while your FG% numbers are telling...the fact that they are so few shots per game renders those % meaningless...

Then shoot more. What's stopping him?


What isn't meaningless is that he's averaging 1.51 PPS for third on the team and is one of the leading passers.

Going 4-for-4 on threes in a blowout will help your PPS.


I wonder how many times a Spurs player has started out 1-4 in this series...imagine if that was all the shots they got...


Tell you what...why don't you guys ask yourselves why Bowen is only averaging 3 shots per game...it aint because Barry's taking those shots...

It's because the Nuggets took away his corner threes. That was their game plan going into the series and it worked.

They didn't have any plan on how to guard Barry.


I could break down what Barry has done late in these games with his passing...but ultimately what's the point? It's not gonna change it...

Do it.


You guys are Devin Brown homers and it aint going to change....

How could I be a Devin Brown homer when I said it helped the Spurs that he got hurt? I said that it gave Barry a chance to figure it out on the court.

Hopefully Barry will take advantage.



Keep on hating...just please try to be consistent about it...the endless flipflopping on it is tedious.

Keep on swinging.

Either come with proof that Barry has done anything outside of game two or admit you're wrong.

Again.

[picnroll]

Jon Barry has four balls, his and his brothers.

Jon Barry has all the grit. He'll dive on the ball, he'll fight hard through a pick. Brent's out there waltzing around, to smooth to get dirty.

[timvp]

If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Break it down. Show us. Make us believe.

From my research, Barry is a total of +4 in fourth quarters so far in the playoffs. That doesn't mean much since the Spurs pretty much owned the Nuggets in the fourth quarter in every game other than game two.

[ShoogarBear]

F'in hell. Jon Barry!!!

[Jimcs50]

Why do you insist on trashing our own players???

No real fan would do this in the middle of the playoffs.

I bet timvp would foresake a Spur win if only Brent missed 5 shots in 4th Q, including game winner, just so he could tell whottt that he was right.

We need to back up all our players...not be devisive.

[timvp]

Why do you insist on trashing our own players???

No real fan would do this in the middle of the playoffs.

I bet timvp would foresake a Spur win if only Brent missed 5 shots in 4th Q, including game winner, just so he could tell whottt that he was right.

We need to back up all our players...not be devisive.

Did you read? I didn't trash Barry. I posted stats and harmless opinions.

I'm also on record saying that Barry will snap out of this slump.

The point of this thread is to analyze Barry's play to date and to see if we can find trends that point to improved play along the way. Has he shown up in the playoffs so far? Will he show up? Is he possibly doing things on the court that help the Spurs win without it showing up in the boxscore? Those are the answers we are trying to get.

[whottt]

Break it down. Show us. Make us believe.

From my research, Barry is a total of +4 in fourth quarters so far in the playoffs. That doesn't mean much since the Spurs pretty much owned the Nuggets in the fourth quarter in every game other than game two.


Ok gimme till after this game is over....

[Jimcs50]

Did you read? I didn't trash Barry. I posted stats and harmless opinions.

I'm also on record saying that Barry will snap out of this slump.

The point of this thread is to analyze Barry's play to date and to see if we can find trends that point to improved play along the way. Has he shown up in the playoffs so far? Will he show up? Is he possibly doing things on the court that help the Spurs win without it showing up in the boxscore? Those are the answers we are trying to get.


Look at what you started:


Jon Barry can barely get up and down the floor, his stones are so big. He's banging treys, and driving to the rack. The anti-Brent. exstatic

[Guru of Nothing]

Why do you insist on trashing our own players???

No real fan would do this in the middle of the playoffs.

I bet timvp would foresake a Spur win if only Brent missed 5 shots in 4th Q, including game winner, just so he could tell whottt that he was right.

We need to back up all our players...not be devisive.

Just now, I was wondering - how can I flatter the fan-ness of a Laker fan?

[Jimcs50]

Let us all just enjoy our TEAM as one unit, shall we.

If there is anything that this team, our team is about, it is that no individual stats matter, all that matters is that they play like a team, win like a team and lose as a team.

I could care less who scores, who rebs, who assists, who steals, etc etc...I just want my team to be the last one standing, and we should all think just like OUR TEAM does and that is, individual stats do not matter as long as they get the W.

Yes???

[jalbre6]

Just now, I was wondering - how can I flatter the fan-ness of a Laker fan?

(1) Pay money.

(2) Bang their sister.

(3) Bang their mother.

(4) Offer them an audition for a Gap commercial, and if they refuse, remind them of the first three.

[timvp]

Let us all just enjoy our TEAM as one unit, shall we.

If there is anything that this team, our team is about, it is that no individual stats matter, all that matters is that they play like a team, win like a team and lose as a team.

I could care less who scores, who rebs, who assists, who steals, etc etc...I just want my team to be the last one standing, and we should all think just like OUR TEAM does and that is, individual stats do not matter as long as they get the W.

Yes???

Alright.

PM me your address and I'll send you pom-poms. Let the rest of us figure out why the Spurs win or lose games and what the best strategy is for success.

:)

[1Parker1]

I guess I have no complaints about Barry, until this point, since we are winning. I will reserve my ultimate judgement on him, until we have a game where Spurs are down by 5-10 points in the 4th, and Pop actually decides to put Barry in the game and he steps up and knocks down the 3 pointers that were the reason why he came here. I've seen him do it in the regular season...against Pheonix, against Houston, etc. I just wish we'd see it on a regular basis.

I know Whott is probably going to argue that the reason why Barry hasn't had a chance to show what he's made of is because:
1) He doesn't get that many touches
2) Pop doesn't call more plays for him
3) Pop doesn't put him in during the crunch time

My rebuttles:
1) Demand the ball then! Start hitting those open 3's and your team-mates will trust you more to give you the ball!
2) See above, give Pop a reason to draw plays for you. Sorry to say, but if we are down in the 4th quarter and need to score--we have a lot more offensive choices before Barry (Duncan, Manu, Parker, Horry, Barry--in that order)
3) Reason Pop doesn't put him in during crunch time more often is because usually Barry hasn't done much offensively throughout the first three quarters to warrant him being in there.


Whott is going to bite my head off for this, I know!! But seriously, I'm not saying that some of your justifications are wrong about Barry, I know he'll have a game or two in the playoff's where he will come up BIG--ala Pheonix game. My thinking is that as long as his poor shooting/lack of shooting isn't hurting the team, I'm ok with his play :) I know he has more in him than Hedo that's for sure!

[picnroll]

Didn't you hear about Juan Dixon going off for 30+ after hearing about fans on a message board calling him trash.

link (https://home.comcast.net/~aa23/rap/juanhatesus.mp3)

Maybe if Brent gets called out and hears he can sack up like Dixon. Nothing else has worked.

[1Parker1]

LOL. What's up with Jim being the voice of reason around here?!?!

[ShoogarBear]

Alright.

PM me your address and I'll send you pom-poms.
Just make sure you don't do any sexy dances with them!

[Jimcs50]

Alright.

PM me your address and I'll send you pom-poms. Let the rest of us figure out why the Spurs win or lose games and what the best strategy is for success.

:)

I already have some, thankyou.

:)

[T Park]

Why not, its cool for 14 year olds to dance around like whores and look like hookers.


Jon Barry is doing tonight what the Spurs wanted Brent Barry to do.


Why is pointing that out, hating???

[Jimcs50]

Seriously timvp, what we talk about in here has no affect on the Spurs...so IMO, let us real fans just enjoy the moment in the sun and stop all this derision.

One day, we will go back to the dark days of the mid 80s when our team sucks, then we will look back and wish we had the "problems" that you are talking about now.

Yes?

[Jimcs50]

Why not, its cool for 14 year olds to dance around like whores and look like hookers.


Jon Barry is doing tonight what the Spurs wanted Brent Barry to do.


Why is pointing that out, hating???


Phoenix game was enough for me for awhile...he is saving it for Phoenix again, and that will be just fine with me too.

[timvp]

Seriously timvp, what we talk about in here has no affect on the Spurs...so IMO, let us real fans just enjoy the moment in the sun and stop all this derision.

One day, we will go back to the dark days of the mid 80s when our team sucks, then we will look back and wish we had the "problems" that you are talking about now.

Yes?

Dust off those pom-poms.

[Kori Ellis]

Seriously timvp, what we talk about in here has no affect on the Spurs...so IMO, let us real fans just enjoy the moment in the sun and stop all this derision.


Then what's the point of having a Spurs message board? It can't all just be "Rah! Rah! GO SPURS GO!" The point of a discussion board is to discuss.

[mookie2001]

well this whole site has no effect on the spurs
except the free quattro razor thread in the club

spurs in 5

[T Park]

Phoenix game was enough for me for awhile

your kiddin me right.

A game back in JANUARY is good enough???


Talk about low fuckin standards.

[whottt]

your kiddin me right.

A game back in JANUARY is good enough???


Talk about low fuckin standards.

Why not numbnuts...1 bad play is enough for you to rip him over...

[Guru of Nothing]

Then what's the point of having a Spurs message board? It can't all just be "Rah! Rah! GO SPURS GO!" The point of a discussion board is to discuss.

I disagree. The point of a message board is for us to each stroke our own ego; discussions are a nice byproduct.

Look at the time!

Good night.

[mookie2001]

Why not numbnuts...



ROFL
if i hadnt sworn never to use a smiley face id use the one with the guy rolling on the floor laughing




1.000 playoff win %

[T Park]

Oh fuckin please.


I praised him after a great game in game 2, and I thought he played a solid to good game 4.


What is his excuse for not shooting open jumpers and not taking the ball to the rack.

Dont you fuckin DARE either say it is Pop's fault, because Pop has said millions of times, he has the green light to do whatever he fuckin wants.

He just wants to stand at the three point line with his dick in his hand and fuck off and be invisible.

[Jimcs50]

Then what's the point of having a Spurs message board? It can't all just be "Rah! Rah! GO SPURS GO!" The point of a discussion board is to discuss.


discuss, not trash your own team and players.

I guess I am old school here. I am loyal to my team and players to the bitter end.

I guess because I am not spoiled like a lot of you newbies(Kori and timvp)

You do not remember the dark days of Modor, when 21 win seasons were abundant.....Kori, you joined up in 97 when the Spurs were a top team, but I remember when it was tough being a Spurs fan, and we had some terrible players in the Black and Silver who look like Middle Schoolers compared to Barry.

I stuck with the team through all the bad times, still sitting in my car at night listening to WOAI even when they lost 2 of every 3 games.

So, maybe I do wave my pom poms, but that to me is exemplary, because I did it even in the bad times.

[jalbre6]

Uh-oh.

[T Park]

I was there during the bad times too.

But im not wavin the pom poms.

[Jimcs50]

I was there during the bad times too.

But im not wavin the pom poms.

You want to borrow mine?

[timvp]

discuss, not trash your own team and players.

I guess I am old school here. I am loyal to my team and players to the bitter end.

I guess because I am not spoiled like a lot of you newbies(Kori and timvp)

You do not remember the dark days of Modor, when 21 win seasons were abundant.....Kori, you joined up in 97 when the Spurs were a top team, but I remember when it was tough being a Spurs fan, and we had some terrible players in the Black and Silver who look like Middle Schoolers compared to Barry.

I stuck with the team through all the bad times, still sitting in my car at night listening to WOAI even when they lost 2 of every 3 games.

So, maybe I do wave my pom poms, but that to me is exemplary, because I did it even in the bad times.

Newbie? I've been watching games since '86. I've paid for my own season tickets since '98.

Stick to the pom-poms.

[timvp]

But whatever, if you just want a bunch of people talking about how good the Spurs are, go check out spursreport. You'll like it there.

The subject is Brent Barry. Add your input.

[Rick Von Braun]

I disagree. The point of a message board is for us to each stroke our own ego; discussions are a nice byproduct. One of the most insightful comments I have read in a while.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, you joined up in 97 when the Spurs were a top team

Don't give me so much credit. I watched the Spurs since the 80's, but I wasn't a fan until 2000 or so. :lol

[milkyway21]

I can't really say Brent sucks. because he isn't. There's just a LACK of attempts to shoot more. As if he's more concerned of his FG/3pt % stats than on how many points he has made in a game.

And that's totally disappointing.

But i look forward to his contribution in the next series. We need him to make MORE attempts vs. his old team, the Sonics. That's it, his perimeter shooting. He has to. If he continues to play like he was in the 1st rnd. he might regret it if he'll fail to make the Spurs in the next yr or so. You see everybody is tradeable in this team, anybody not named Tim Duncan.

[slayermin]

From what I recall, Brent said that he was trying to "Steve Kerr" his way to a championship. Hey, I don't have a problem with that. Kerr really didn't make a significant contribution until game 6 against the Mavs in '03.

Brent has come full circle, with signing with Spurs and playing the Sonics in the West Semis. His basketball legacy will more than likely be made in this series. We will see how he does.

I know I am rooting for him.

[toosmallshoes]

Bruce bowen took more shots than Brent in the last game against denver. He plays scared. He's underperforming in the playoffs just as he did in the regular season. He looks uncomfortable out there. He thinks too much. He defers too much. He needs to shoot or drive... and when he drives to the basket (this is his worst deferring habit) he needs to shoot when five feet from the basket instead of passing the ball in mid-air to someone else. I'm losing faith in him. I think he might come up big a couple of times in the future, but it appears he'll never perform consistently well as a spur. Was Barry fool's gold?... and if so, who would be better to fill that position?.. and if not, when will he become real gold? Brent Barry was rightfully predicted to be a crucial part of this team, but instead he's become an occasional hero. He's playing like a wuss. I mean,wouldn't you rather him shoot five for fifteen than one for four? That's weak.

[whottt]

TimVP....as I was breaking down the PBP to prove we are better offensive team with Barry on the court for the 4.3 billionth time this season...it just struck me...you know what...all kidding aside...I'm tired of this argument. Just hate the dude...gutless, heartless, choking pussy etc, he's Hedo, Smitty and all the guy Spurfans love to hate rolled into one...Go Devin, go Beno. What is there really to argue about?

It's really not a big deal anyway...the way I look at it, Beno makes Brent Barry tradeable...

Like I said all season long....It took the mighty offensive IQ of Pop and Spursfans to figure out that Brent Barry is a guy that just wants to camp out at the 3 line and make chicken passes...he's the stupidest offensive player in history...he doesn't know how to pass, he doesn't know how to shoot, he doesn't know anything about offense...and he nutrode an aging Garry Payton to his awesome numbers. We figured it out. Guy has Boykins on him...and he's afraid to take it to the hole on Boykins...it's just the kind of guy he is....like he proved all those games he choked under pressure in this season when Duncan was out. Like all those pussy passes he makes that beat the defender and guys score on...gutless choking pussy.


He doesn't want to do anything except stand out there at the 3 line and camp out...You can just see how much he loves doing that...it's what he's done his whole career. We figured it out...



Happy now?


But I will point out why the Spurs were stupid to sign this guy though...Because if that's all we wanted was a guy to shoot threes, there were cheaper alternative out there.

What we did was take a very talented guard and offensive player and tried to turn him into a role playing shooter.

If all we wanted was a guy to stand out at the 3 lint to shoot threes...then signing Barry was fucking stupid...

But that wasn't what the Spurs intended to do...we didn't know what our back up PG situation was going to be when we signed Barry...We didn't how good Beno was going to be...

I think the Spurs and Brent both planned on him backing up both guard spots...but Beno emerged and Pop started thinking about better ways to use that money he's paying Brent Barry...Barry is getting the Malik Rose treatment...and he has been since about December...and the only reason Barry had as big of a role this season as he has had is because of injuries and Pop having no alternative.


And the reason I defend this guy is because he's not Hedo...he's been much better than Hedo...under much more difficult circumstances...on top of that he wanted a ring...not a contract...big differences.

And the unjustified negativity and bile from hateful Spurs fans actually make me cringe when the guy comes into the game...I want to see Devin and Beno out there instead...yes we'll choke more with Devin...but at least everyone will STFU about it because he's the hometown boy and his dunks look good. I hope it happens...it'll be a change of pace.

[Jimcs50]

Newbie? I've been watching games since '86. I've paid for my own season tickets since '98.

Stick to the pom-poms.



Oh, in 86? I hardly think being a 7 yr old kid watching sports is the same as an adult. As if you lost any sleep when LA swept our asses then.

If you think all I do is wave poms poms in here, then you never read my takes, obviously.
:rolleyes

[timvp]

TimVP....as I was breaking down the PBP to prove we are better offensive team with Barry on the court for the 4.3 billionth time this season...it just struck me...you know what...all kidding aside...I'm tired of this argument.

:lol

Are you sure that's what happened? Are you sure it wasn't that there is no proof that the Spurs are a better offensive team with Barry on the court?

Don't wuss out now. You've said all season and now into the playoffs that the Spurs are much better and "choke proof" with Barry in the game. You said you had stats to back up your statements. You said you could prove it to us. I believed you.

If you can come up with stats that show how the Spurs are better with him on the court even if he isn't scoring or playing good defense, I'd love to see it. Perhaps it could change some opinions in here.


Just hate the dude...gutless, heartless, choking pussy etc, he's Hedo, Smitty and all the guy Spurfans love to hate rolled into one...Go Devin, go Beno. What is there really to argue about?

I'm not trying to argue. I thought you had something and were holding back on us.

I guess you were just bluffing the whole time.


It's really not a big deal anyway...the way I look at it, Beno makes Brent Barry tradeable...

Barry's a shooting guard, Beno's a point guard. Doesn't make too much sense. Barry doesn't play defense well enough to be a PG in the league anymore. That was obvious last season.

The Spurs signed him to be a SG.


Like I said all season long....It took the mighty offensive IQ of Pop and Spursfans to figure out that Brent Barry is a guy that just wants to camp out at the 3 line and make chicken passes...he's the stupidest offensive player in history...he doesn't know how to pass, he doesn't know how to shoot, he doesn't know anything about offense...and he nutrode an aging Garry Payton to his awesome numbers. We figured it out. Guy has Boykins on him...and he's afraid to take it to the hole on Boykins...it's just the kind of guy he is....like he proved all those games he choked under pressure in this season when Duncan was out. Like all those pussy passes he makes that beat the defender and guys score on...gutless choking pussy.


He doesn't want to do anything except stand out there at the 3 line and camp out...You can just see how much he loves doing that...it's what he's done his whole career. We figured it out...



Happy now?

:cry

Need a tissue? Why do you take it so personally? We want to believe. You told us you had the answers.

Show and prove.


But I will point out why the Spurs were stupid to sign this guy though...Because if that's all we wanted was a guy to shoot threes, there were cheaper alternative out there.

What we did was take a very talented guard and offensive player and tried to turn him into a role playing shooter.

Pop has given him the freedom to be whatever Barry wants to be. He even runs plays for him. He has a green light 100% of the time. I've never seen Pop get mad at him for taking a shot.

What has Pop done to turn him into a role playing shooter? Are you sure Barry hasn't done it to himself.


If all we wanted was a guy to stand out at the 3 lint to shoot threes...then signing Barry was fucking stupid...

But that wasn't what the Spurs intended to do...we didn't know what our back up PG situation was going to be when we signed Barry...We didn't how good Beno was going to be...

I think the Spurs and Brent both planned on him backing up both guard spots...but Beno emerged and Pop started thinking about better ways to use that money he's paying Brent Barry


The Spurs were confident that Beno could play backup minutes right after they drafted him and worked him out. They didn't sign Barry to be the backup PG.

They thought that he could be an emergency PG, but no more than that.


Barry is getting the Malik Rose treatment...and he has been since about December...and the only reason Barry had as big of a role this season as he has had is because of injuries and Pop having no alternative.

Malik Rose treatment? How many DNP's did he get?

Just because Pop took him out of games months ago for ineffective plays, that shouldn't effect him now.


And the reason I defend this guy is because he's not Hedo...he's been much better than Hedo...under much more difficult circumstances

What stats are out there to prove he's been better than Hedo. Pretty much everything you look at shows that Hedo was the better player to this point.

And how is he under more difficult circumstances? I want to hear your side of the story.


And the unjustified negativity and bile from hateful Spurs fans actually make me cringe when the guy comes into the game

So you cringe at the start of games? Interesting.

Spurs fans love him. He's never booed at the SBC. Fans in here are just waiting to do something and then everyone will worship him. Show us that he's already doing something. Show us the stats.

Make us believe.


I want to see Devin and Beno out there instead...yes we'll choke more with Devin...but at least everyone will STFU about it because he's the hometown boy and his dunks look good. I hope it happens...it'll be a change of pace.

You are slowly turning into a Brent Barry fan rather than a Spurs fan. You can bash Devin and Beno, but their stats this year are comparable to Barry's -- if not better. They have arguably played tougher roles. They put out more effort. They both play better defense. They both let it fly offensively.

But lets see it. Show us how Barry rules without shooting or defending. Show us what you got.

You've talked the talk long enough. Now you have a thread dedicated to it. It's time for you to walk the walk.

[whottt]

:lol

Are you sure that's what happened? Are you sure it wasn't that there is no proof that the Spurs are a better offensive team with Barry on the court?

Don't wuss out now. You've said all season and now into the playoffs that the Spurs are much better and "choke proof" with Barry in the game. You said you had stats to back up your statements. You said you could prove it to us. I believed you.

If you can come up with stats that show how the Spurs are better with him on the court even if he isn't scoring or playing good defense, I'd love to see it. Perhaps it could change some opinions in here.



I'm not trying to argue. I thought you had something and were holding back on us.

I guess you were just bluffing the whole time.

From: The Numbers Speak for themselves (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12799&highlight=Brent+Devin)

From: Spurs Player Pairs (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13316&highlight=82Games)

People who lack confidence don't play their best stretch of the season after Duncan goes out.

Last night was a case of Barry being called out and focused on and responding to the challenge...it wasn't an act of brilliance as we'll find out in Denver when Parker and the Spurs once again forget about Barry.
(http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14597&page=2&pp=26&highlight=forget+Barry)


The above is me correctly predicting why the move to start wouldn't work. It's also me explaining why Barry plays the way he does...and if you read the article you'll see Barry explaining why he doesn't drive...it's the Spurs offense.

Whottt correctly predicting when and why Barry would step up, while TimVP doubted (http://spurstalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=44467)


Yeah...I'm reminded of how much sticking to the facts paid off :rolleyes

I can find more...I can also find it in thr playoffs...all you gotta do is look at the playoff +/- figures....they are a small sample size...but it's pretty much the same as in the regular season...

All you really got to do is go look at what's happened in games where Barry hasn't played in the 4th quarter...

And I think the defense thing is beginning to get laughable...we had some of our best defensive performances of the season with Barry playing 30 minutes and no Tim Duncan.

We also had some of our clutchest games of the season.


I am not taking it personally it's just an unwinnable argument...I've posted fact after fact and you guys reply with..."heartless".

I'll can also show you why Hedo was over-rated and why your FG% stats are basically meaningless if you take out his best game...but why not try taking out Tony, Manu and Tim's best games and see what you get....and try and see how many times they have started a game 1-4, when all they are doing is taking threes essentially....then look at how many times Barry entered a 4th quarter with a 1-4 and ended up with a 4-7 or something to that effect.

[BigVee]

I too, am growing very tired of the Brent Barry bashing/discussion. What is the point of this? The guy is trying his best ( I doubt if anyone disputes that ) seems to be a great teammate, and the team is winning. Why the constant discussion? Why an official expose? Why tear down a player now? Would you have him sit on the bench and NOT play? On a team with three legit go to players and maybe a fourth with Horry and now another shooter with Big Dog, just exactly what do you want him to do? He is not a wuss and not scared. I have yet to see him shy away from contact. That beak of his gets hit all the time. He is trying to do what he thinks is best for this team. He is an excellent ball handler and deft passer. Sure you can pick out some bad plays....name a player who hasn't made their share. For cryin out loud, why not leave the guy alone? Being critical is one thing, but many of you make it personal, like he is deliberately missing shots or not playing defense to your expectations. Get off it already!

[Nikos]

Barry is a low possession usage kind of guy. He has been that way his entire career.

It's not hard to see why he might not take a lot of shots considering the Spurs slow paced, defensive style where Tim Duncan dominates the ball on offense.

Ultimately he is going to be judged on his open shot making ability for this team. This is what the team needs from him. They do not need his passing as much as they need him to be a threat to take and make shots when open. And technically he should get more open looks with Duncan on the floor (along with Parker and Ginobili).

If he can make shots, he is doing his job. If he misses shots, is reluctant to shoot, then that defeats the purpose of why he is on the floor.

[ducks]

those that do not like "the bashing barry thread" you coudl tell by the title that soem would bash barry
why open it?

[Useruser666]

"Jon Barry scored 12 of his 14 points in the fourth quarter"

[BigVee]

"Jon Barry scored 12 of his 14 points in the fourth quarter"

And, he played like shit in game 4 and 5 and helped the Rockets lose. Your point?

[wildbill2u]

Oh fuckin please.


What is his excuse for not shooting open jumpers and not taking the ball to the rack.

He just wants to stand at the three point line with his dick in his hand and fuck off and be invisible.

Actually, it seems like Barry has been driving to the basket for many (if not most) of his shots (misses) rather than taking the three.

Speaking of a player not taking open jumpers, has anyone noticed Bowen doesns't have the stones to shoot the three again this year. Last year, he choked in the playoffs and they just left him alone out in his 'favorite' spot because they knew he wouldn't take the shot.

[waly.mg]

For me, Barry can start the game, but he can´t start the 3rd period, because is very dangerous Seattle and can Score 10 points before Manu will enter the game

The 3rd is the begging of the end, and we must to start with our best team

The last season with Lakers , that thing happened, when manu entered the game the Lakers were ahead by ten

[boutons]

What is the point of inviting trashing of individual players in the middle of the playoffs?

Just a slow day waiting for the Sonics series?

I really hate this "piss on a Spur du jour" or "Spur vs Spur" threads, but especially in the playoffs when we all have more important things to think about than whipping the Spurs.

=======================

Robert said that Pop told him to "let it fly". I wonder if Pop said the same thing to Brent? Maybe Pop has told Brent to make plays, keep the ball moving, and swinging it around on offense, keep the offense up-tempo, push the ball up the court.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_post_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersFG3PQuery.html?topic=0&stat=9

... shows Brent to be the 3rd best Spur in 3G %age, behind Manu and Robert, but essentially tied with Nostalgic Golden Idol SJax.

Like everybody else, I wish Brent was contributing more, having his career playoffs, but he's not really hurting, either.

[Useruser666]

And, he played like shit in game 4 and 5 and helped the Rockets lose. Your point?

Well, I was simply pointing out that his brother had a good game. I wish our Berry could put in a game like that more often. Even just hit a few more shots here and there. I don't think he's lived up to expectations so far this year. Do you?

[BigVee]

For a bunch of reasons, valid or not depending on your point of view, no, he has not been what I expected. Who's to blame for that? Again, we have all read a million thoughts on that. But, yes I am disappointed.

[romsho]

At the beginning of the season, I could not wait to see Brent Barry run with this team. I thought he was an excellent fit because of his unselfishness and ability to run the fastbreak and knock down the three point shot. While he has showed flashes of potential, overall he has been a big dissappointment. The word I would use to describe him is PASSIVE. In fact, he couldn't possibly be any more passive. a non-factor in his minutes on the floor. He rarely shows any offensive aggressiveness, often just moving the ball around the perimeter, never making anything happen. I don't think this is what the front office had in mind when they signed him. You never see this guy have a 10 for 15 night or a 3 for 16 night for that matter, because he just never takes matters into his own hands-ever. Heart, courage, balls-not words I would use to describe Brent Barry. This is not a talent issue, but more so an approach to the game and mental toughness issue. I am tired of his unselfishness. Show us something dude-learn something from your brother.

[beirmeistr]

I agree with BigVee's comments that Barry is trying his best and doing an adequate job. I also think the media inadvertently raised Spurs fans' expectations a little high by concentrating on Barry's 40% career 3 point average. I looked at his stats and he has averaged 10.3 points per game in his career.That should be an indication that he is not a bomber. In 18 playoff games, 12 of which he has started, he has averaged 8.2 points per game. I think we expect too much of him. If some of you feel that he overpaid, that is a separate issue.

[T Park]

At the beginning of the season, I could not wait to see Brent Barry run with this team. I thought he was an excellent fit because of his unselfishness and ability to run the fastbreak and knock down the three point shot. While he has showed flashes of potential, overall he has been a big dissappointment. The word I would use to describe him is PASSIVE. In fact, he couldn't possibly be any more passive. a non-factor in his minutes on the floor. He rarely shows any offensive aggressiveness, often just moving the ball around the perimeter, never making anything happen. I don't think this is what the front office had in mind when they signed him. You never see this guy have a 10 for 15 night or a 3 for 16 night for that matter, because he just never takes matters into his own hands-ever. Heart, courage, balls-not words I would use to describe Brent Barry. This is not a talent issue, but more so an approach to the game and mental toughness issue. I am tired of his unselfishness. Show us something dude-learn something from your brother.


::Stands and applaudes::


Fantastic post Ram


Fantastic post. my sentimates EXACTLY.

[timvp]

From: The Numbers Speak for themselves (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12799&highlight=Brent+Devin)

From: Spurs Player Pairs (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13316&highlight=82Games)


What do regular season stats have to do with Barry's play in the playoffs? You said you had proof that the Spurs play better with him on the floor. You said he makes the Spurs "choke proof".

Where is the proof? You must have lied.

Oh and regular season stats are overrated. Hedo had like the best +/- in the league last season and was even named MVP by some statistical breakdown. Remember?

I'm still waiting on you showing how Barry is different.


People who lack confidence don't play their best stretch of the season after Duncan goes out.

Last night was a case of Barry being called out and focused on and responding to the challenge...it wasn't an act of brilliance as we'll find out in Denver when Parker and the Spurs once again forget about Barry.
(http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14597&page=2&pp=26&highlight=forget+Barry)

The above is me correctly predicting why the move to start wouldn't work.

It worked for game two, didn't it? Too bad the Nuggets reacted.


It's also me explaining why Barry plays the way he does...and if you read the article you'll see Barry explaining why he doesn't drive...it's the Spurs offense.

He's driving this year just as much as he ever did. What does that have to do with anything?



I can find more...I can also find it in thr playoffs...all you gotta do is look at the playoff +/- figures....they are a small sample size...but it's pretty much the same as in the regular season...

The team is in the negative with him on the court so far in the playoffs. And if you look over just the final three games of the series, I bet he's well in the negative.


All you really got to do is go look at what's happened in games where Barry hasn't played in the 4th quarter...

So if the Spurs play Barry in the fourth, they won't lose? Who do you want him on the floor in place of?


And I think the defense thing is beginning to get laughable...we had some of our best defensive performances of the season with Barry playing 30 minutes and no Tim Duncan.

So Barry is a good defender in your eyes?


I am not taking it personally it's just an unwinnable argument...I've posted fact after fact and you guys reply with..."heartless".

I'm still waiting for fact number one. You've just rehashed a bunch of stats from the regular season. You've been spouting that you have proof that the team struggles without him in the lineup.

But then I call you on it and you come up with nothing.


I'll can also show you why Hedo was over-rated

Show me. The stats you point to that show Barry's better than his numbers show are the same stats that Hedo dominated last season.

If you don't have this proof that you were saying you did, then just admit it. You lied -- no big deal.

Show and prove or admit the proof never existed.

[Useruser666]

Barry is the designated bricker for the Spurs. He takes all the bad shots or chokes on the open looks so all the other Spurs don't have to. If it weren't for Brent, other Spurs would be missing his shots or looking timid in his playing time.

[T Park]

Whottt wont show proof, cause the proof he talks about is coming out of his ass.

There is no such thing to prove that.

Its all opinion.

[timvp]

If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Virtually every time we pulled him the Nuggets made a run on us...a substantial run.

So was this a lie?

You said you'd show us after the game. Still waiting...

[MadDog73]

You never see this guy have a 10 for 15 night or a 3 for 16 night for that matter, because he just never takes matters into his own hands-ever.


Woah, you'd rather him shoot 3 of 16 than 4 of 4?

If his shot is not there, then STOP SHOOTING. Pass the ball to somebody who can make it.

Yeah, if he was Tim Duncan or Manu or Tony, I'd be clamoring for him to take more shots. But he's not. And as long as there's a Beno or Robert in the game, there are better options.

As soon as Devin is better, Barry is gone from the starting line-up UNLESS his shot becomes more consistent.

But the last thing we need is for Barry to be putting up 15-16 shots a night!

Barry needs to score about 6-10 a night to be useful. Just enough to be a threat so that someone has to guard him. Leave the bucketful of shots to other scorers on the team.

[Nikos]

In theory Brent SHOULD be a difference maker for this team overall. His shooting should make the team stronger. But right now his shooting hasn't made a big difference. He is underacheiving thus far.

He can do better, and I hope he does.

But as long as Pop plays Bowen and Ginobili in crunch time, the same shooting problems can resurface. In order for Barry to make his mark he needs to make shots consistently over the course of the game. Then he will get a chance to maybe play the clutch time minutes of a big game or two.

He simply needs to make his open shots at a respectable rate to be a difference maker the Spurs brought him in to be.

[TwoHandJam]

5 games in the playoffs is really not a big enough sample to know whether Barry isn't living up to expectations yet or not. We won't really know if Barry sucks in the playoffs until at least 10 games or so. So far imo, he has been too passive but I can't really say he's hurt the team.

BTW, Steve Kerr sucked far worse with us his first year and he wouldn't even have sniffed the playoffs if Tim didn't demand it from Pop. What does that say about how hard it is to get a handle on the system for some players?

[boutons]

Looking at the 2005 playoff stats (only 6 games), Brent is shooting:

43% FG (about same as Tony 44%), about avg for the backcourt Spurs.

36% 3G (4th behind Manu, Robert, Bruce, but much better than Tony)

I just don't see where Brent is having such a horrible playoffs that deserve to be pissed on, justifying his own piss-on-Brent thread.

Brent shooting 15-16 shots/game would have BETTER results than Tony, due to Brent much better 3G %age. And of course Brent 90% FT is 50% better than Tony's 60%.

For what Brent does, he does with perfecctly acceptable results. The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.

[hendrix]

Looking at the 2005 playoff stats (only 6 games), Brent is shooting:
43% FG (about same as Tony 44%), about avg for the backcourt Spurs.
36% 3G (4th behind Manu, Robert, Bruce, but much better than Tony)
I just don't see where Brent is having such a horrible playoffs that deserve to be pissed on, justifying his own piss-on-Bruce thread.
Brent shooting 15-16 shots/game would have BETTER results than Tony, due to Brent much better 3G %age. And of course Brent 90% FT is 50% better than Tony's 60%.
For what Brent does, he does with perfecctly acceptable results. The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.

I agree with you boutons. And I'd like to add that when some people here say they see Barry "just passing the ball around the perimeter" is when they should realize he's doing the point guards job, instead of being selfish and taking a lot of shots.

[ChumpDumper]

The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.I agree with this to an extent - just compare Beno and Brent. In the playoffs, Beno has taken a shot every 2.5 minutes he's out on the floor. Brent does it once every six minutes -- way down from his figure of a shot every 3.8 minutes in the regular season. Other than that, he's playing about average for him in the playoffs. I know I expected too much of him this season and I wasn't looking for a real breakout here.

[whottt]

Uh TimVP...I was slammed today and didn't have time to play childish games with you...I'll post it...but I really don't understand why you don't just take my word for it...

For now on the subject of Barry making a team choke proof in the 4th, choke proof is not a term that should be thrown around lightly...but I'd say Barry has been the best example and closest thing to that all season. As for the playoffs...it's simple...look at the game where he didn't play in the 4th, VS all the others he did...his unselfish passing is contagious and it has been since the first game he played with us...

I'll post more later...you are wrong about the +/- figures though...we aren't in the negative with him.

[timvp]

Uh TimVP...I was slammed today and didn't have time to play childish games with you...I'll post it...but I really don't understand why you don't just take my word for it...

Still waiting for you to post what you were going to post from yesterday. Not holding my breath.


For now on the subject of Barry making a team choke proof in the 4th, choke proof is not a term that should be thrown around lightly...but I'd say Barry has been the best example and closest thing to that all season. As for the playoffs...it's simple...look at the game where he didn't play in the 4th, VS all the others he did...his unselfish passing is contagious and it has been since the first game he played with us...

Look at his stats in the fourth quarters of playoff games so far. No points and three assists. I want to see the numbers you have that show how his value is more than his numbers show.


I'll post more later...you are wrong about the +/- figures though...we aren't in the negative with him.

The Spurs are +9.7 with him on the court and +10.8 with him off, for a net difference of -1.1 points.

Apology accepted.

:)

[TwoHandJam]

Again, 5 games is not enough to be statistically significant yet.

Horry was probably off the charts statistically against Memphis last year and then he cratered big time against the Lakers. If you're going to get into a pissing contest, at least have a little patience.

[T Park]

Been waiting all year Twohand.

System or not.


Open jump shots are open jump shots, and being passive on the perimiter is being passive.

[2centsworth]

Been waiting all year Twohand.

System or not.


Open jump shots are open jump shots, and being passive on the perimiter is being passive.
I think Whott produced some convincing evidence that brent has had a somewhat decent regular season.

The question is whether he has done enough in the playoffs. Sample size is very small, but every time I see the guy play he seems to work his ass off. I'll take the effort and the threat of 3 point shooting. I still don't see that guy getting many open looks which means our bigs get more space to operate.

I'll go out on a limb and say barry is going to be very valuable and make some very big shots/plays.

I'm happy with Barry at this point. He doesn't need to do as much as Hedo did, because Manu and Tony on playing out of their minds right now.

I do believe the biggest game of the postseason for the spurs has been game 2 (must win) and barry started that game off right. The thrashing put the spurs back to where they needed to be and Barry had a lot to do with that.

[ChumpDumper]

I do believe the biggest game of the postseason for the spurs has been game 2 (must win) and barry started that game off right. The thrashing put the spurs back to where they needed to be and Barry had a lot to do with that.Interestingly enough, that's the game where he put up shots at the highest rate of the playoffs, twice as often as in game one. Helpful.

[timvp]

Again, 5 games is not enough to be statistically significant yet.

Agreed. I'm just waiting for Whottt's proof that this is true:


If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Virtually every time we pulled him the Nuggets made a run on us...a substantial run.

He said there was a +/- breakdown that showed that when Barry went to the bench in the second half, the Spurs folded. If that is true, it'd be a sign that Barry is valuable beyond his stats.

If.

[T Park]

exactlyr right Chump.

If he would chuck up more shots, I would be all for it.

[Gerryatrics]

I don't know any sites that list touches, so I'm not going to post any numbers that defend Brent Barry's play this season. Instead, I'll post his stat line from last season with the Sonics, the last time he was an active part of the offense and was able to play in the flow of the game.

Games Minutes FG% FT% 3PT% Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks PPG
__59___30.6__50.4_82.7_45.2____3.5_____5.8___1.4__ _0.3__10.8

And one more; Adjusted Field Goal Percentage: 63.7

[timvp]

Yeah, that's why all of us expected more production out of Barry. He had so much success around the league and was such a great set-shot three point shooter, that everyone thought he'd hit 50% of his threes.

That is part of the mystery.

[T Park]

That, and the Spurs originally were gonna make him the back up, and they didnt expect what Udrih has given.

IMO, this series, with Antonio Daniels his size and quickness, Barry should get the majority of the back up 1 minutes.

[Gerryatrics]

Like I said, touches. In Seattle, Brent Barry brought the ball up the floor, and handled the ball pretty much every possesion, often multiple times per possesion. Even when the Sonics still had Gary Payton at the point Brent still handled the ball a lot. With the Spurs, Brent can go multiple possesions without ever touching the ball at all, much less in a position to make a play. In addition, a lot of the shots he does get are with under five seconds on the shot clock if I remember correctly, suggesting he only gets the ball as a last resort, and that he has to force up a lot of his shots.

The Spurs play an inside-out game with Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili-Tim Duncan over perimeter passing, ball movement and slashing into the paint and kicking out to the open shooter when the defense collapses. All of which would get Brent Barry touches and open up the offense. But of course we can't change the offense to suit one player. Barry ran a motion-offense in Seattle, and now has to try to fit into an offense that doesn't try to work in anyone not named Parker, Ginobili or Duncan. I think it's telling that some of Brent's best games have been when one of the big three were out. I'm not saying bench one of them, I'm just saying move the ball and try to get Barry some touches when he's out there.

[ChumpDumper]

Brent touched the ball more than twice in his 20 minutes in game one. It doesn't do any good to give him touches if he doesn't shoot. No one can tell me starting him is a ploy to keep him from being involved in the offense. Nothing is horribly wrong here, but you can't tell me Barry shoots once every 6 minutes becuase the Spurs run an "offense that doesn't try to work in anyone not named Parker, Ginobili or Duncan" -- all you have to do is look at the rates at which Beno and GRob are shooting.

[timvp]

Brent touched the ball more than twice in his 20 minutes in game one. It doesn't do any good to give him touches if he doesn't shoot. No one can tell me starting him is a ploy to keep him from being involved in the offense. Nothing is horribly wrong here, but you can't tell me Barry shoots once every 6 minutes becuase the Spurs run an "offense that doesn't try to work in anyone not named Parker, Ginobili or Duncan" -- all you have to do is look at the rates at which Beno and GRob are shooting.

Exactly right.

So far in the playoffs, Barry is averaging 8 shots per 48 minutes. Beno is averaging 19.2 shots per 48 minutes, while GRob is averaging 17.9 shots. Beno and GRob are getting their touches ... and so is Barry. It's a matter of getting in the right position and having the right mindset to do something with the ball.

[Gerryatrics]

When Beno is in he runs the point and will attack the basket and try to lay it up or hit a runner, he also gets screens so he can take open threes. Robinson just plain shoots the ball every time he gets his hands on it. Half of Barry's touches come from the other guard out on the perimeter after they use up their dribble, who then call for the ball back so they can set up a play. Brent has never taken a lot of shots, even when he was the number two option with the Sonics. He takes shots in the flow of the offense, not every chance he gets no matter how well covered he is or how much time is left on the shot clock or who might be open. I wish he would take more shots too, but he just doesn't get the touches or the looks to take 20-30 shots a game, especially here in the playoffs. You guys seem convinced that he just stands in the corners watching the game because he wants to, not because he's been directed to do so, but I'm not.

You have shots per 48, anyone have touches per 48 or touches per possesion to compare? If that's equal then I'll finally admit Barry sucks and stop defending him.

[ChumpDumper]

If he was shooting at this rate all season, I wouldn't have brought it up.

He wasn't -- he's shooting over a third less often now. It's more than apparent that his move to the starting lineup was due in no small part to the two shots in 20 minutes.

[T Park]

You guys seem convinced that he just stands in the corners watching the game because he wants to, not because he's been directed to do so, but I'm not.


That fuckin popovich......

[ducks]

come on barry so us how stupid we are for calling you out!

[mrpach]

Remember that OT win over Suns last jan? Brent's clutch shooting was awesome...mabe he just need a chance to prove himself!
besides..... hes much more than just a shooter, hes underrated this year because the spurs singed him for his shooting :oops
THE PLAYOFFS ARE NOT OVER ---stlill believe in him :drunk

manu is shooting great 3s :blah

[Gerryatrics]

Every time he's been involved in the clutch he's come up big. But because he doesn't have a 25 under Points Per Game, some people refuse to recognize his contributions to the team.


If he was shooting at this rate all season, I wouldn't have brought it up.

He wasn't -- he's shooting over a third less often now. It's more than apparent that his move to the starting lineup was due in no small part to the two shots in 20 minutes.

I realize he is shooting less, and I'm not happy with that either. But how have some of the other players, like Ginobili, Parker and Duncan's shots per 48 numbers been affected? I'm still waiting for someone to find a stat for touches, surely someone keeps track of that. Just watching the games, it seems to me like Brent Barry gets very few touches, except for the rare stretch here and there where he runs the point (and generally builds up a pretty nice lead), and Game 2.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Looking at the 2005 playoff stats (only 6 games), Brent is shooting:

43% FG (about same as Tony 44%), about avg for the backcourt Spurs.

36% 3G (4th behind Manu, Robert, Bruce, but much better than Tony)

I just don't see where Brent is having such a horrible playoffs that deserve to be pissed on, justifying his own piss-on-Brent thread.

Brent shooting 15-16 shots/game would have BETTER results than Tony, due to Brent much better 3G %age. And of course Brent 90% FT is 50% better than Tony's 60%.

For what Brent does, he does with perfecctly acceptable results. The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.

Brent Barry gets crapped on because his name isn't Devin Brown or Malik Rose.


As for his shots per minutes since becoming a starter, the guy is basically the fourth option on offense behind Tim, Tony, and Bruce. Is it crazy to expect him to put up less shots with that group?

As for Beno and Big Dog, you're talking about two guys who are largely playing with a second unit that doesn't have a go to guy and runs a much more fluid offensive set than the starters.

[ducks]

amazing what beno and barry can run against second string from other teams

[Gerryatrics]

That fuckin popovich......

So head coaches don't direct players on the floor anymore? Brent Barry stands in the corner watching the game on the jumbotron because he likes it there, not because the play has him standing there waiting for kickouts that never come? Brent decided that ball movement and perimeter passing were overrated, so he decided it was better for the team if he just stood there and watched the inside-out game between Duncan and Parker/Ginobili? It's all Brent Barry, and Pop has nothing to do with his decline in San Antonio? So tell me T Park, what is the head coach's job, besides to take credit when the team barely survives a fourth quarter collapse and makes it out with the W?

[T Park]

If you would watch game 1 this year you would know.


Popovich has given Brent Barry the green light to do WHAT HE WANTS.

Drive, shoot, WHATEVER.


No shot, is a bad shot, no move to the hole is a bad move with Brent Barry.


But, keep talkin out your ass Sonics fan.



It's all Brent Barry, and Pop has nothing to do with his decline in San Antonio?

Popovich is making him shoot about 20 percent from the 3 point line??


Good one.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I just skimmed this thread, but it was mentioned already I think...

Barry is one of those guys who needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He is horribly miscast (like a whole host of other FA acquisitions the last several years) as a spot up shooter in our inside-out offense.

Doesn't mean he sucks, just that Pop and RC aren't going to have any more luck forcing this square peg into their round spot up hole than they have had with several other guys the past 5-6 years.

[timvp]

Uh TimVP...I was slammed today and didn't have time to play childish games with you...I'll post it...but I really don't understand why you don't just take my word for it...

For now on the subject of Barry making a team choke proof in the 4th, choke proof is not a term that should be thrown around lightly...but I'd say Barry has been the best example and closest thing to that all season. As for the playoffs...it's simple...look at the game where he didn't play in the 4th, VS all the others he did...his unselfish passing is contagious and it has been since the first game he played with us...

I'll post more later...you are wrong about the +/- figures though...we aren't in the negative with him.

Still waiting for Whottt to come up with the numbers that he promised.

[T Park]

ha, that, and NBADan posting a postive George W Bush thread will happen at the same time.

[timvp]

If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Virtually every time we pulled him the Nuggets made a run on us...a substantial run.


I still want to know if this was true or just a lie. Either way, it would be interesting.

[whottt]

Still waiting for Whottt to come up with the numbers that he promised.


Easy there...it takes time, and when someone wants you to do it, it's like work, kinda like you and the grades you know? And believe it or not my cable was out for the last 2 days. You guys only notice me when I post a lot, not when I don't...sometimes I can't. I am working on it though...

Before we begin...

#1. The first thing I want you to do is take away Hedo's best game against the Grizzlies. Just like you took away Brent Barry's best game against the Nuggets. That would be game 3 VS Memphis.

#2The second thing I want you to do is look at what Stephen Jackson shot against the Lakers in 03 and see just how much credit you want to give him for enabling us to finally beat the Lakers...he does deserve credit...but he doesn't deserve it for anything he shot against them...

He deserves it for tearing them up in the regular season that year making sure that Phil would not double off of him. Manu was the difference VS LA. The reason we lost is that Bowen punished LA in 03 when they tried to double off him in 03...Last season he didn't. Jack punished them in the regular season, Hedo didn't. Hedo was dared to shoot...Jack never was.

And contrary to what you guys seem to be seeing...the Nuggets were not doubling off Barry and daring him to shoot like Phil did to Hedo last season...

I am still doing the PBP...to prove Barry helped our offense...

But first...Barry does not have a negative +/-, he's got a negative per, it's different, one that is pretty easily explained when you take into account all the late fouls Denver took trailing late in the game to get the ball back...

Secondly...I don't think Hedo lead in +/-, I think he lead in Sagarin ratings, and there is a slight differrence. In any case, Manu and Duncan were both ranked highly in the same category...and Hedo did play well in the regular season so it doesn't surprise me.

[whottt]

Also...since you guys have labeled Barry as being afraid to shoot...

I would very much like you to find another Spur that has jacked up 3.5 3pa's per game playing only 21 mins per game.

Good luck.

I know, but Barry, the career 40% 3 point shooter, is open all day long.

[timvp]

All well and good but still waiting on ...


If told you guys what the +/- break down was in the second half of games after we pullled Barry, you guys would think I hated just about every Spur...

Virtually every time we pulled him the Nuggets made a run on us...a substantial run.

It sounded like you already had the numbers. So were you guessing?

[red kryptonite]

Easy there...it takes time, and when someone wants you to do it, it's like work, kinda like you and the grades you know? And believe it or not my cable was out for the last 2 days. You guys only notice me when I post a lot, not when I don't...sometimes I can't. I am working on it though...

Before we begin...

#1. The first thing I want you to do is take away Hedo's best game against the Grizzlies. Just like you took away Brent Barry's best game against the Nuggets. That would be game 3 VS Memphis.

#2The second thing I want you to do is look at what Stephen Jackson shot against the Lakers in 03 and see just how much credit you want to give him for enabling us to finally beat the Lakers...he does deserve credit...but he doesn't deserve it for anything he shot against them...

He deserves it for tearing them up in the regular season that year making sure that Phil would not double off of him. Manu was the difference VS LA. The reason we lost is that Bowen punished LA in 03 when they tried to double off him in 03...Last season he didn't. Jack punished them in the regular season, Hedo didn't. Hedo was dared to shoot...Jack never was.

And contrary to what you guys seem to be seeing...the Nuggets were not doubling off Barry and daring him to shoot like Phil did to Hedo last season...

I am still doing the PBP...to prove Barry helped our offense...

But first...Barry does not have a negative +/-, he's got a negative per, it's different, one that is pretty easily explained when you take into account all the late fouls Denver took trailing late in the game to get the ball back...

Secondly...I don't think Hedo lead in +/-, I think he lead in Sagarin ratings, and there is a slight differrence. In any case, Manu and Duncan were both ranked highly in the same category...and Hedo did play well in the regular season so it doesn't surprise me.


Sounds like a bunch of excuses for why you can't explain how Brent Barry doesn't suck.

[whottt]

No I wasn't guessing...


It's pretty simple actually...Barry is the second highest rated starter in per and +/-. Duncan, Bowen, and Mohammed, 3 starters, had the worst per ratings on the team.

Who was the starter that wasn't closing out games and didn't play in our loss?

Who replaced Duncan when we went on that big OT run?

[whottt]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses for why you can't explain how Brent Barry doesn't suck.


Actually...it sounds like you need your ears cleaned...you might want to do that after you remove your head from your rear end.


I don't have to defend Barry from sucking...because he doesn't suck...he only "sucks" when you take his best game away and compare him to others players without doing the same to them.

[whottt]

All well and good but still waiting on ...



It sounded like you already had the numbers. So were you guessing?


And you are confusing per and +/-.

[red kryptonite]

why are you hanging onto this one best game? doesn't he have another one for you to make stats up about?

[mookie2001]

1.000 playoff win % with brent as starting 2




i have to stick to my guns, a glock 17

[whottt]

What stats did I make up?

The only one making up stats in this thread was TimVP...take away Barry's best game and then use his stats to attempt to show him as being inferior to other players, who haven't had their best games removed.

That's called making stats up.

[red kryptonite]

Why does Brent Barry only have 1 good game?

[Kori Ellis]

This is too much Brent Barry talk for me. Sometimes you just have to walk away from a subject.

[timvp]

What stats did I make up?

The only one making up stats in this thread was TimVP...take away Barry's best game and then use his stats to attempt to show him as being inferior to other players, who haven't had their best games removed.

That's called making stats up.

How is it making up stats to point to games where the Spurs up by triple figures? Hitting some meaningless shots in the second half of games that have been over by the first quarter don't do anything to prove a player's worthiness.

[red kryptonite]

So where are the stats, Whott?

[2centsworth]

How is it making up stats to point to games where the Spurs up by triple figures? Hitting some meaningless shots in the second half of games that have been over by the first quarter don't do anything to prove a player's worthiness.
to be fair, no one wants brent barry taking big shots in the 4th of tight games. I'll take Duncan, Manu, Horry, Parker or even Bowen before Brent. that doesn't mean Brent can't hit 'em, but the other guys are way more proven.

[red kryptonite]

Whott,

Where are the stats that we should just take your word on?

[whottt]

Game 1
Start of 3rd quarter: Score 52-52
6:35: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 62-61.
End of 3rd quarter(Last time Barry was in the game).Score 73-75.
Barry difference +1.

Score when Barry enters the game for the final time(15 seconds left):84-92.

That's a - 10 point swing....even if you subtract the 4 FT's(and I will) it's still -6.

Nuggets were at worst +6 without Barry in the game.

With him in the game we were +1.


We won't do game 2 since Barry's good games don't count.

Game 3
Start of 3rd quarter: Score 50-41
8:11: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 54-46.
Barry difference -1.


1:43: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 61-56
Nuggets were + 3 points on us without Barry.

End of the third. Score 61-58.


Start of 4th quarter:Score 61-58
4:35: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 76-69.
Barry difference + 2.

:22: Barry enters the game for Bruce Bowen. Score 83-78.
Nuggets were +2 on us without Barry.

I won't count the intentional fouls that would increase Barry's +/-.

Nuggets were +5 without Barry in the game.

With him in the game we were +1.

Game 4
Start of 3rd quarter. Score 57-51.
8:48: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 61-57.
Barry difference -2.

8:03: Barry enters the gamer for Bruce Bowen. Score 61-58.
Nuggets were + 1 with Barry out.

End of 3rd quarter. Score 86-80.
Barry difference +3.


Start of 4th quarter. 86-80.
10:07: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 89-84.
Barry difference -1.


:14: Barry enters the game for Bruce Bowen. Score 107-107.
Nuggets were +5 with Barry out.

Start of OT. Score 107-107.
2:21 Barry enters for Rasho. Score 114-109.
Nuggets were -5 with Barry out.

Hooray Hooray Hooray Hooray!!!! That OT period is the first time in the entire series the Nuggets had not outscored us with Barry sitting on the bench!!!!!!!!

The 1st time all series we outscored the Nuggets in the second half without Barry being in the game!!!!!!!!!.

Do you get the astounding signifigance?

Do you still need more proof?

Ok without counting the last 4 intentional foul FT's...

Final score 118-111.
Barry difference +2.


For the game:
The Nuggets were +0 without Barry.
With Barry we were +2.




Game 5
Start of 3rd quarter. Score 47-43.
7:05: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 54-53.
Barry difference -2.

Start of 4th. 67-71.

10:37: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 73-67.
Nuggets were - 6 without Barry.

6:01: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 72-80.
Barry difference +1.

1:16 Barry enters the game for Horry. Score 92-83.
Nuggets were - 1 without Barry

I won't count the intentional FT's since that would help Barry's +/-, and lord knows, we don't want to count anything postitive with him if we can help it.

For the game:
The Nuggets were -7 without Barry in the game.
With Barry we were -1 point for the game.


For the entire series:

The Nuggets were +4 without Barry.

We were +3 with Barry on the court.





But the Spurs did not outscore the Nuggets a single time with Barry being off the court, in the second half of games, this series, until the OT period of game 4.

And for the series the Spurs didn't outscore the Nuggets without Barry for an entire second half, until the last game....when the Nuggets gave up.

[mookie2001]

my stat is a 1.000 win % with barry as staring 2, which should regulate on any other stat

[MI21]

Spurs were 6-0 with Hedo starting at the 2 as well.

You have to remember, shit happens.

[whottt]

Other data...

The two games in which Barry played the most minutes(2 and 4) were our two highest scoring games.

The game where he played the fewest minutes, was our lone loss.

That trend has held up all season long...We have an ungodly w-l record when he gets @30 minutes in a game...when he gets @less than 20, it's not very good, and when he gets @less than 10 we have a losing record.


A fluke? Not when you do some research and find out he was the clutchest player on the team, using the definition used by 82 games.com.

[whottt]

And I can't find the site anymore...but there was a site that calculated a players offensive contributions and figured out which player would score the most if he handled the ball on every posession...

The site is down now but Nikos knows the site I am talking about...according to that site Brent Barry was the best offensive player on the team using that forumula...that in the heart of his slump.

Add it up...

The guy is in the top 10 all time in PPS.
He's the only guy to have lead the NBA in 2pt PCT and 3 PT pct...

This guy is a highly skilled offensive player...he's not a proliffic scorer...but he know what to do on offense...it's a shame we don't utilize it more often.

[Kori Ellis]

Good job, Whottt. Congratulations.

Now if Brent will just be more aggressive we'll all be thrilled.

*Is this subject over yet?* ;)

[whottt]

If we need agression we just need to bark...he's what you guys wanted Barry to be...and I don't know why anyone thought Barry was going to be that...he's averaged 10ppg playing nearly 30 mins a game, for his career.

Barry is something else...he's not a scorer...he's like offensive grease, he fills in the gaps on offense, he calms it down and controls the tempo, gets easy baskets and smart shots..but only if he gets the ball...he's like Horry...only it's not fair to say he is as clutch as Horry...then again, he's never played with Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem before...

Who knows...he might turn out to be Hedo, or he might turn out to be another Horry...

But Hedo didn't care about winning...he cared about getting paid.

I think he's going to turn out to be like Horry(only without the D)...that's the way he was in the regular season.

[whottt]

By the way TimVP...

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13419

Here's an article posted by erstwhile statdude RVB, that talks about the impact Barry and Horry and guys like that have...that doesn't show up in stats..





Position: Pass-First Guard
Team: San Antonio Spurs
vBookie Cash: $2451
Post Count: 838
NY Times Article: 3 Spurs' players in the top 10 most underrated list

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/s...html?oref=login

April 10, 2005

A Statistical Holy Grail: The Search for the Winner Within

By DAN T. ROSENBAUM

glance at ordinary statistics - points, assists, rebounds - suggests Jason Kidd and Dwight Howard are two of the league's better players. Kidd, the Nets' starting point guard, is considered one of the league's silkiest passers, and Howard, a rookie forward for the Magic, is one of the top rebounders.

Yet a closer look reveals they are players of vastly different value. The Nets are much better - 14 points better per 48 minutes - when Kidd is on the floor than when he is not. The Magic is slightly worse when Howard is on the floor. Orlando is outscored by 2 points per 48 minutes when he plays, and plays its foes even when he sits, according to 82games.com.

That traditional statistics and the increasingly popular plus-minus differential can measure players so differently highlights the difficulty in designing a rating system for the N.B.A.

Unlike baseball, with its repeated encounters between pitchers and batters, basketball is not a series of one-on-one contests. In baseball, the game's essence is captured remarkably well by box scores.

In basketball, statistics in box scores focus almost entirely on the player with the ball. This omits critical aspects of the game, like teamwork and defense.

These blind spots have made many fans and old-school basketball disciples skeptical of statistical analysis. Dean Oliver, author of "Basketball on Paper" and a statistical consultant for the Seattle SuperSonics, has likened attempts to produce an overall player rating to the quest for the Holy Grail.

But the statistic du jour in the N.B.A. - the plus-minus statistic - offers an opportunity to remedy many drawbacks of the traditional box score, even if it is limited. More teams are now using plus-minus as an important part of their front-office work.

In their most common form, plus-minus statistics measure how a team performs when a given player is on the floor versus when he is on the bench. When Stephon Marbury is on the floor, the Knicks lose by 0.1 points per 48 minutes. Put Marbury on the bench and the Knicks lose by 12.7 points. Marbury's net impact is a positive 12.6 points per 48 minutes.

Because plus-minus statistics depend on team performance, they capture almost every contribution a player can make. The good pick, the solid help defense, the threat of a 3-point shooter - all these contributions are captured by net plus-minus statistics. In theory, they are an ideal measure of a player's effectiveness.

But interpreting what plus-minus statistics tell us about players requires care and knowledge. For example, the impact of Joe Johnson, a Phoenix Suns guard, is overstated because he shares the court with several All-Stars. So is the impact of players, like Marbury, who have poor substitutes.

These factors can be mitigated by further refining plus-minus statistics to account for the quality of a player's teammates and opponents. Surprisingly, few teams use these adjusted plus-minus statistics.

Plus-minus statistics are especially difficult to interpret when the analysis is applied to a small number of games, a point not well understood by many proponents of the statistics. Stable results take more than half a season; stable box-score statistics require only about 10 games.

Small samples of plus-minus statistics are probably more distracting than useful. For example, Minnesota's Kevin Garnett had the league's best net plus-minus in 2003-4 but one of the worst over the past month.

People in the game often claim to know instinctively how to measure intangibles, but salaries suggest otherwise. Teams pay for little more than the glory statistics (points, rebounds and, to a lesser extent, assists).

Although steals, blocks, shooting percentage and an ability to avoid turnovers are crucial to a team's performance, players proficient in these aspects are rarely rewarded with bigger paychecks.

Consider our most underrated players, whose adjusted plus-minus statistics most exceed their glory statistics. (The most overrated players are those whose glory statistics most exceed their adjusted plus-minus statistics.)

The underrated list has many role players, as well as Utah's Andrei Kirilenko and San Antonio's Manu Ginóbili, stars who are strong defenders with well-rounded games. The overrated players include three Olympians and several maximum-salary players.

The overrated list is dominated by high-volume shooters who commit lots of turnovers, like Richard Jefferson and Carmelo Anthony. Many are also low-percentage shooters, like Allen Iverson and Antoine Walker.

Scorers like Jermaine O'Neal, Zach Randolph and Michael Redd who generate few assists are less valuable to their teams than is generally understood.

More can be learned by analyzing adjusted plus-minus statistics. With analysis, they can shed light on the age-old question of what kind of player helps a team win.

Dan T. Rosenbaum is an assistant professor of economics at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/09/sports/20050410score.jpg

[timvp]

Game 1
Start of 3rd quarter: Score 52-52
6:35: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 62-61.
End of 3rd quarter(Last time Barry was in the game).Score 73-75.
Barry difference +1.

Score when Barry enters the game for the final time(15 seconds left):84-92.

That's a - 10 point swing....even if you subtract the 4 FT's(and I will) it's still -6.

Nuggets were at worst +6 without Barry in the game.

With him in the game we were +1.

Right. That was a team meltdown in the fourth. Barry, in his time in the third quarter, was 0-1 with 1 rebound and two assists. There was no evidence that he was especially helping the team. The lead grew by one point in his six minutes on the court.

You can argue either way about whether he should have been in the game in the fourth, but it wasn't like he was producing at an amazing amount and then Pop just forgot about him.



Game 3
Start of 3rd quarter: Score 50-41
8:11: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 54-46.
Barry difference -1.


1:43: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 61-56
Nuggets were + 3 points on us without Barry.

End of the third. Score 61-58.


Start of 4th quarter:Score 61-58
4:35: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 76-69.
Barry difference + 2.

:22: Barry enters the game for Bruce Bowen. Score 83-78.
Nuggets were +2 on us without Barry.

I won't count the intentional fouls that would increase Barry's +/-.

Nuggets were +5 without Barry in the game.

With him in the game we were +1.

That is pretty much holding par with him or without him. There were no "substantial" runs like you said. +3 here and -1 there doesn't mean much other than the Spurs held onto the lead with or without him in there.



Game 4
Start of 3rd quarter. Score 57-51.
8:48: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 61-57.
Barry difference -2.

8:03: Barry enters the gamer for Bruce Bowen. Score 61-58.
Nuggets were + 1 with Barry out.

End of 3rd quarter. Score 86-80.
Barry difference +3.


Start of 4th quarter. 86-80.
10:07: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 89-84.
Barry difference -1.


:14: Barry enters the game for Bruce Bowen. Score 107-107.
Nuggets were +5 with Barry out.

Start of OT. Score 107-107.
2:21 Barry enters for Rasho. Score 114-109.
Nuggets were -5 with Barry out.

Hooray Hooray Hooray Hooray!!!! That OT period is the first time in the entire series the Nuggets had not outscored us with Barry sitting on the bench!!!!!!!!

The 1st time all series we outscored the Nuggets in the second half without Barry being in the game!!!!!!!!!.

Do you get the astounding signifigance?

Do you still need more proof?

Ok without counting the last 4 intentional foul FT's...

Final score 118-111.
Barry difference +2.

No, I do not get the astounding part. The Spurs hold par with him and the Spurs hold par without him.

The Spurs lost ground in game one in the horrible fourth quarter and at the end of the fourth in game three when the Nuggets came back to tie the game. Are you saying that those runs never would have happened with Barry in the game?




Game 5
Start of 3rd quarter. Score 47-43.
7:05: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 54-53.
Barry difference -2.

Start of 4th. 67-71.

10:37: Barry enters the game for Manu. Score 73-67.
Nuggets were - 6 without Barry.

Here is another example of the Spurs outscoring the Nuggets without Barry. Not too astounding ...


6:01: Manu enters the game for Barry. Score 72-80.
Barry difference +1.

1:16 Barry enters the game for Horry. Score 92-83.
Nuggets were - 1 without Barry

And here's another example.








I'll give you props for finally coming up with the stats. Although I fail to see the amazing runs the Nuggets went on when he was taken out of he lineup. The Spurs folded in game one in the fourth quarter. Would Barry have stopped that? I don't see any conclusive stats in this analysis that would point to that happening.

[whottt]

By the way...where are all the Jon Barry and Sura lovers at these days...

Amazing how a combined 1-9 in an elimination game can shut so many people up...

I told you guys Sura was a choker....what was his excuse for an ofer on 2 shots...he's the freaking starting PG.

[timvp]

By the way TimVP...

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13419

Here's an article posted by erstwhile statdude RVB, that talks about the impact Barry and Horry and guys like that have...that doesn't show up in stats..





Position: Pass-First Guard
Team: San Antonio Spurs
vBookie Cash: $2451
Post Count: 838
NY Times Article: 3 Spurs' players in the top 10 most underrated list

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/s...html?oref=login

April 10, 2005

A Statistical Holy Grail: The Search for the Winner Within

By DAN T. ROSENBAUM

glance at ordinary statistics - points, assists, rebounds - suggests Jason Kidd and Dwight Howard are two of the league's better players. Kidd, the Nets' starting point guard, is considered one of the league's silkiest passers, and Howard, a rookie forward for the Magic, is one of the top rebounders.

Yet a closer look reveals they are players of vastly different value. The Nets are much better - 14 points better per 48 minutes - when Kidd is on the floor than when he is not. The Magic is slightly worse when Howard is on the floor. Orlando is outscored by 2 points per 48 minutes when he plays, and plays its foes even when he sits, according to 82games.com.

That traditional statistics and the increasingly popular plus-minus differential can measure players so differently highlights the difficulty in designing a rating system for the N.B.A.

Unlike baseball, with its repeated encounters between pitchers and batters, basketball is not a series of one-on-one contests. In baseball, the game's essence is captured remarkably well by box scores.

In basketball, statistics in box scores focus almost entirely on the player with the ball. This omits critical aspects of the game, like teamwork and defense.

These blind spots have made many fans and old-school basketball disciples skeptical of statistical analysis. Dean Oliver, author of "Basketball on Paper" and a statistical consultant for the Seattle SuperSonics, has likened attempts to produce an overall player rating to the quest for the Holy Grail.

But the statistic du jour in the N.B.A. - the plus-minus statistic - offers an opportunity to remedy many drawbacks of the traditional box score, even if it is limited. More teams are now using plus-minus as an important part of their front-office work.

In their most common form, plus-minus statistics measure how a team performs when a given player is on the floor versus when he is on the bench. When Stephon Marbury is on the floor, the Knicks lose by 0.1 points per 48 minutes. Put Marbury on the bench and the Knicks lose by 12.7 points. Marbury's net impact is a positive 12.6 points per 48 minutes.

Because plus-minus statistics depend on team performance, they capture almost every contribution a player can make. The good pick, the solid help defense, the threat of a 3-point shooter - all these contributions are captured by net plus-minus statistics. In theory, they are an ideal measure of a player's effectiveness.

But interpreting what plus-minus statistics tell us about players requires care and knowledge. For example, the impact of Joe Johnson, a Phoenix Suns guard, is overstated because he shares the court with several All-Stars. So is the impact of players, like Marbury, who have poor substitutes.

These factors can be mitigated by further refining plus-minus statistics to account for the quality of a player's teammates and opponents. Surprisingly, few teams use these adjusted plus-minus statistics.

Plus-minus statistics are especially difficult to interpret when the analysis is applied to a small number of games, a point not well understood by many proponents of the statistics. Stable results take more than half a season; stable box-score statistics require only about 10 games.

Small samples of plus-minus statistics are probably more distracting than useful. For example, Minnesota's Kevin Garnett had the league's best net plus-minus in 2003-4 but one of the worst over the past month.

People in the game often claim to know instinctively how to measure intangibles, but salaries suggest otherwise. Teams pay for little more than the glory statistics (points, rebounds and, to a lesser extent, assists).

Although steals, blocks, shooting percentage and an ability to avoid turnovers are crucial to a team's performance, players proficient in these aspects are rarely rewarded with bigger paychecks.

Consider our most underrated players, whose adjusted plus-minus statistics most exceed their glory statistics. (The most overrated players are those whose glory statistics most exceed their adjusted plus-minus statistics.)

The underrated list has many role players, as well as Utah's Andrei Kirilenko and San Antonio's Manu Ginóbili, stars who are strong defenders with well-rounded games. The overrated players include three Olympians and several maximum-salary players.

The overrated list is dominated by high-volume shooters who commit lots of turnovers, like Richard Jefferson and Carmelo Anthony. Many are also low-percentage shooters, like Allen Iverson and Antoine Walker.

Scorers like Jermaine O'Neal, Zach Randolph and Michael Redd who generate few assists are less valuable to their teams than is generally understood.

More can be learned by analyzing adjusted plus-minus statistics. With analysis, they can shed light on the age-old question of what kind of player helps a team win.

Dan T. Rosenbaum is an assistant professor of economics at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/09/sports/20050410score.jpg

That'd be great but we're not talking about the regular season.

Here is an article calling Hedo Turkoglu the MVP of the league last season.



Hidayet Turkoglu named Most Valuable Player of NBA 2003-2004 season

ISTANBUL (CIHAN) - Turkish star player Hidayet Türkoglu was named as the MVP (most valuable player) of the NBA 2003-2004 season, in a recent survey carried out by expert Jeff Sagarin and professor Wayne Winston.

Hedo Turkoglu, who played for San Antonio Spur last season, ranked first, outshining all other NBA stars, to become MVP for the season, showed the survey carried out by Wayne L. Winston, a professor of decision sciences at Indiana University and his friend Jeff Sagarin, a professional sports statistician.

Sagarin and Winston have formulated a ranking that is similar to hockey's plus-minus system, in which players receive credits for being in the game when their team does well. Whether they actually score points or grab rebounds does not matter.

Hidayet was followed by Toronto Raptors' Vince Carter, by Minnesota Timberwolves' Kevin Garnett, by Sacramento Kings' Brad Miller and his old teammate Emanuel Ginobili.

Hidayet will play for Orlando Magic this season.

[mookie2001]

well he was 6-10

[whottt]

TimVP...we never lost a lead with him in the game...The Nuggets never gained more than 3 points on us with him in the game...and we never lost the lead.

You can't argue against the fact that the team performs better with him in the game.

We blew big leads in the 4th with him on the bench....We did it in game 4 as well, not just in game 1.

If you take out game 5, the Spurs were outscored by 11 points with Barry out of the game.

If any game in this series was meaningless it was that one...the Nugs were down 3-1 at that point.

You can say he doesn't make any difference in the 4th quarter...but I can show you a season long trend that says he does....How come our last Houston game was the only one where he got substantial minutes in the 4th and it was our biggest win over them this season...and he went off in that 4th quarter...

He was his typical 1-5 up until that point...just like he was 1-5 up until the final minutes of the Phoenix game...

Same thing with that GS double OT win...he didn't do shit until the 4th...

This guy has been good under pressure all season long. It's just a fact.

[Kori Ellis]

Whottt, I have a serious question ...

If you were a woman, would you want to have Brent Barry's baby?


























Before you get mad, I think timvp wants to have AJ's baby too. :)

[whottt]

327%
188%


That's Stephen Jackson's FG and 3PT PCT against the Lakers the year we won the title....

He wasn't the reason we beat LA. But he did draw a defender...and so does Barry.

[timvp]

Okay, close game against the Sonics. Eight minutes to go in the game. The Sonics have their starting five on the court. Everyone on the Spurs is well rested and ready to go.

What lineup do you use down the stretch?




QUESTION.

[whottt]

Kori...the guy just gets trashed unfairly...he had a bad month or else he shoot 40 for the season...

He's scoring 7 PPG in 21 minutes...in his career he's score 10ppg in 29 minutes...it looks about the same ratio to me...he's never taken a bunch of shots...he hasn't shot at his highest PCT this season...but he's never been a Gleen Robinson type.

The only thing that's down are his PCT's...he was 12 3 pointers away from shooting 40% from 3 this season. And he shot 50% from 2.


I am not the worlds biggest Brent Barry fan...

I was a Jack fan remember? I could swear I had TimVP and Marcus Bryant telling me to STFU and just let Jack go....

This guy just deserves to be defended...if I didn't see a correlation between his minutes, our offense, and winning...I wouldn't defend him...

Think about it...I hate AJ because he couldn't shoot...I hate Hedo because he choked...I don't really even like Danny Ferry...

I don't like chokers, I don't like guys that can't hit open shots...

But I defend this guy because you can't argue with the W-L record...you can't argue with a clutch stat PCT that leads the team.

Until he fails, or we stop losing when he sits, I'll defend...Unfortunately he doesn't get that opportunity as much as he should IMO.

[mookie2001]

This guy just deserves to be defended...if I didn't see a correlation between his minutes, our offense, and winning...I wouldn't defend him...

But I defend this guy because you can't argue with the W-L record...you can't argue with a clutch stat PCT that leads the team...

Until he fails, or we stop losing when he sits, I'll defend...Unfortunately he doesn't get that opportunity as much as he should IMO.


thats exactly what i said
but different

[whottt]

Okay, close game against the Sonics. Eight minutes to go in the game. The Sonics have their starting five on the court. Everyone on the Spurs is well rested and ready to go.

What lineup do you use down the stretch?




QUESTION.


My favorite lineup is Duncan, Barry, Manu, Horry and Parker. And it's one we've hardly used this season...but we did use it when we built the biggest lead we had in Denver...I was happy about that.

As for which lineup I want under any circumstances to close out a game...

It just depends...

The only two I know for certain I want out there are Duncan and Manu.

And even they are not totally guranteed to make my lineup. It just depends...but those two would make it nearly every time.


If we are choking and can't buy a shot, and we have a lead...I better see Barry, Horry, and Big Dogg out there...or I am gonna have a major hate on for Pop.

[timvp]

You know that Duncan, Parker and Manu are going to be out there in crunch time. That's a given. The four will most likely be Horry.

It really comes down to Bowen versus Barry. I can't argue with Pop's thinking about using Bowen down the stretch. Especially against a team with a go-to perimeter scorer (Anthony and Allen). Do you want to see the Spurs trying to win games WITHOUT Bowen on Allen? I don't.

So basically, the Spurs will never have Barry in the game in the fourth if it's close unless:

1) Manu or Bruce are in foul trouble.
2) The other team has no go-to perimeter scorer.

Otherwise, Bowen will be in the game and rightfully so.

Agree?

[whottt]

No, I don't agree...because if Ray Allen or McGrady are going off...it doesn't matter what Bruce does, and he gets forgotten about on offense, and we end up playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end......Sometimes you just need to trade baskets...and we can do that better with Barry than we can with Bowen...and honestly, I think Barry should get minutes at the point in that sitation...

Read my breakdown again...it's not that we blow guys out with Barry in there all the time...it's that we do an excellent job of trading baskets with them...you say we never blew a really big lead without him in the game...we didn't have any really big leads...and not a single time did we lose a lead we had with him in the game.

Barry is a good NBA player...you guys act like he's Calamity Jane any time he steps on the court...

See that's the problem I have with Spurs fans and Pop's defense is all phiolosopy...I swear, if Steve Nash was on this team, he'd be the 3rd string PG...

Guess what...he plays no D, and he still wins a ton of freaking games and he almost beat us...

You guys act like Barry never won a game before coming to the Spurs...

Hell, he pushed the Jazz to an elimination game, something we never did, his team pushed us to an elimination game(Duncan was injured though)..

Not only would I be willing to sub Barry for Bowen...there would be times when I would consider doing it for both Manu and Parker...there are times where I would consider letting him run the point....because he never has the mindset that he has to do it all by himself...and Parker, Duncan and Manu, our 3 go to guys, all get in that frame of mind and make TO's from time to tim...Barry is always as willing to pass as he is too shoot...I like his fast passes because they beat the defenders to their man.

I am not talking about an 8 minute stretch...I am talking about situationally...prefererably before our 8 point lead has become and 6 point deficit.

There are no absolutes...and you don't have to think of the game in 8 minute increments.

I think Manu is clutch like Kobe...he's a guy that can destroy a team in the final 5 minutes of a game...but he's not necessarily the guy I want with the ball as the clock expires....and neither is Parker....because I've seen both of them try to force it...Barry never forces it...and I have seen him hit a bunch of last seconders...just this season alone...not to mention at least one against us in San Antonio(with Bowen on him) the year we won the title.

For all we know Bowen could be the greatest clutch shooter in history...but we'll never know because he never gets passed the ball in that situation...neither does Barry. Let Barry run the offense in that situation at time or two and we might find out a lot about both of them...

Barry's has been on the court for our biggest and grittiest wins this season...the big comebacks against Phoenix and NJ, the double OT wins, the clutch FT's against Detroit, the big 4th against the Rockets, the last seconder against the Lakers...

[toosmallshoes]

PM me your address and I'll send you pom-poms.

Cool. I want pom poms! umm... The spurs can beat up an alligator even if the alligator is on steroids. gimme some pom poms!!

and seriously. Barry has been quite a story this season. It so happens that he has been a catalyst for many of the spurs greatest victories, and a scapegoat for many of their lowest defeats.

He's neither the player we expected him to be, nor deserving of much of the scorn he recieves.

Whottt-like reverence aside, he can do some good things. You just have to wait, and when it happens, it's like magic....not unlike another streaky shooter that so many spurs fans are still in love with. aka, SJAX.

Barry is more like HedoJax.

[wildbill2u]

Barry is a smart team player who is always within his capabilities. You seldom see him make a fundamental mistake for a TO. If you'd look at him as a tall, veteran, point guard who can also shoot for a good percentage (rather than a prolific scorer) then you begin to appreciate the depth that he gives to the Spurs.

I think he is a great acquisition for the Spurs and you notice that the team doesn't question his promotion to the starting SG to make the team better. (Of course that may be because no one wants a bus ticket out of town for questioning Pop's decisions)

Five straight wins with Barry playing significant minutes. Maybe people ought to find another whipping boy.

[ChumpDumper]

Strangely enough, the worst part of his game last night was his decision-making on the break. Low and/or late is not the way to pass to a following Nazr.

[whottt]

Actually...it's more revealing than that...

The Spurs are 11-2 when Barry starts period. 8 of those were Manuless games.

When Barry starts with Tim Duncan the Spurs are 9-0. 8 of those without Manu.

When Barry starts without Manu or Duncan being healthy the Spurs are 1-2.

The two losses we have with Barry starting were @ Phoenix and VS Denver and we lost both by by a total of 9 points....with no Duncan or Manu.




You see similar trends with his minutes...

And you see similar trends with his Seattle career....


His struggles this season...well Barry was just 12 3 pointers short of being a 40% shooter this season from 3.


Passing up shots? This is the biggest peice of BS thrown around by the Barry haters...

He lead the team in 3PPA playing only 21 minutes per game.

His 3.5 attempts per game were tied with Manu for the team lead, more than Hedo averaged per game last season, in 25 mins per game, and the most by any Spur since Jack averaged 3.7 per game, in nearly 28 mins per game.

And I am sorry, but you guys are fools if you think he gets more open looks from 3 than Jack or Hedo, did playing more minutes. He's a career 40% shooter, I believe the 17th best career mark in NBA history...he doesn't get left open often.

If you dropped a rolls royce back into the caveman era they would destroy it...this is very similar to Barry's relationship with the Spurs and their fans....they want to bash what they don't understand...and if it doesn't play D, they don't understand. I think they get it from the coach.

[Useruser666]

OMG!!! :lol

[MadDog73]

You know that Duncan, Parker and Manu are going to be out there in crunch time. That's a given. The four will most likely be Horry.

It really comes down to Bowen versus Barry. I can't argue with Pop's thinking about using Bowen down the stretch. Especially against a team with a go-to perimeter scorer (Anthony and Allen). Do you want to see the Spurs trying to win games WITHOUT Bowen on Allen? I don't.

So basically, the Spurs will never have Barry in the game in the fourth if it's close unless:

1) Manu or Bruce are in foul trouble.
2) The other team has no go-to perimeter scorer.

Otherwise, Bowen will be in the game and rightfully so.

Agree?


Well, there's one more thing to consider:

Bruce is a 57% free throw shooter, Barry is 83%.

[timvp]

Actually...it's more revealing than that...

The Spurs are 11-2 when Barry starts period. 8 of those were Manuless games.

When Barry starts with Tim Duncan the Spurs are 11-0. 8 of those without Manu.

When Barry starts without Manu or Duncan being healthy the Spurs are 1-2.

The two losses we have with Barry starting were @ Phoenix and VS Denver and we lost both by by a total of 9 points....with no Duncan or Manu.



:lmao

You are the one who was against Barry starting. I was the one saying it was a good idea. You said it didn't make a difference. You just proved yourself wrong.

Apologize to yourself.

Welcome to the light.

[timvp]

In the thread announcing Barry is going to start:


I don't think it's a good move.

[whottt]

Get this...

In Barry's 13 starts this season...the Spurs have only failed to score 100 points 3 times...

Our highest scoring game of the season was in a Barry start with no Duncan or Manu.

[timvp]

Now you see the light.

Congrats.

[MadDog73]

If you take out the game that Pop put Barry into the starting lineup, surprising George Karl and pretty much everyone else, Barry's numbers so far in the playoffs are pretty horrible.

MPG -- 23.5
PPG -- 4.0
FG% -- 35.7%
3P% -- 10.0%

I'm not sure how someone could defend those numbers.

New Numbers:

MPG -- 26.5
PPG -- 7.2
FG% -- .481
3P% -- .389
FT% -- .833
Reb -- 2.2
Assists -- 2.5

Hell, Barry is doing better than Beno now!

[whottt]

TimVP...you want him to put up better traditional numbers...
Starting him won't do that.

You see similar w-l trends just when he gets 25 minutes...something easily attainable off the bench.

Really it's not even about minutes...it's about what moments he sits on the bench.

Starting is irrelevant to whether or not he puts up numbers...


His highest scoring game this season came off the bench.

The 4 times he lead the team in scoring this season, were all off the bench.

The year he lead the NBA in 3 shooting was done in large part off the bench.


When he does put up good numbers with us....it's a fucking blowout...you want more of those...use him like we did early in the season...where we turn into a transition team when we go to our bench and Duncan is off the court...

[MadDog73]

I say try subbing in Barry for Beno. If he's such a playmaker whottt says he is, he should have no trouble beating out Beno for this spot.

The only problem with this is, who starts for Manu? Pop always wants 2 of the Terrifying Three (Timmy, Tony and Manu) on the court.

Beno and Tony together as starters?!?

But, Barry is better than Beno. Thus the starting spot.

I think Pop has it figured out, and until we lose, why mess with what's working?

EDIT: Why are we even discussing this?!?

Brent's numbers in the Playoffs are now officially better than those in the regular season. IT'S WORKING JUST FINE, folks!

[whottt]

Ni TimVP...I don't see the light...

Because we are 29-7 when he plays more than 26 minutes in a game...We are 8-7 when he plays under 15 minutes per game.

What I see is that when we put him on the court we win...and when we don't we lose.

What I see is that when he doesn't play in the 4th we lose(please take my word for it).

It's been the trend all season long...it makes no difference if he starts or not.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Brent Barry just needs to take the ball to the rack more and try to take some mid range jumpers.
Even if thats not his game. If he misses, he misses, but he'll still have a better shot at hitting a 15 footer than a three pointer, i think. The guy's a good shooter.

I've only been here a short while, but even i remember Whottt posting some stats showing how the offense just happens to work better with barry on the floor, by more of a degree than some of the other players on the squad.

Those stats, plus the way our offense totally stagnated when we took out barry against denver shows he's not just the invisible man.

he just needs to make himself more known on the court.

I really think Pop is making him do what he's been doing though and Barry just needs to ignore his dumb ass and start doing more with the ball.

[picnroll]

When I saw the title to this thread I could have sworn it was going to be whottt's collection of nude photo's of Brent Barry.

[whottt]

I say try subbing in Barry for Beno. If he's such a playmaker whottt says he is, he should have no trouble beating out Beno for this spot.

The only problem with this is, who starts for Manu? Pop always wants 2 of the Terrifying Three (Timmy, Tony and Manu) on the court.

Beno and Tony together as starters?!?

But, Barry is better than Beno. Thus the starting spot.

I think Pop has it figured out, and until we lose, why mess with what's working?


Only in freaking San Antonio do people wonder if Brent Barry is a better player than Beno Udrih and Devin Brown...

Like I said...if Steve Nash was on this team he'd be the third string PG. Pop offensive moronicism is contagious and has infected the whole town.

And BTW...Barry averaged more assist per game than Beno, more per 48 than Beno, in the regular season and playoffs, he also had the best assist to to ratio on the team and lead the team guards in fewest to's per 48.

I been saying all season we should use him as the back up point...when we were doing that we were off to the best start in team history...

And finally Pop has started doing that again in these playoffs...my point is that Barry doesn't have to start to be able to do that...Manu is still doing it some off the bench...we did it earlier in the season...Right now Pop seems to only be letting Barry do it one out of the two segments he plays with Beno...

Beno is allegedly more of a true PG...but if you ask me he does a better job of being a spot up shooter than he does handling the ball...at this stage of his career.

[Useruser666]

I bet I could prove my rabbit's foot is the key to the Spurs winning if I broke down the stats like you Whottt.

[MadDog73]

What I see is that when he doesn't play in the 4th we lose(please take my word for it).


Until we lose a game, I fail to see your argument that Pop is doing something wrong.

What about Barry's start last night did you find objectionable?

If Barry starts, we don't need him in the fourth, 'cause we're LEADING.

[whottt]

Note how the Barry haters just come in here and talk shit without having any statistical data..

From now I will no longer post stats...I will just unsubstantiated shit like everyone else does...

BTW...TimVP, TPark, Reddickhead...all need to apologize for questioning me when I said we were being out scored in the second half of playoff games when Barry wasn't on the court...

It's a fact that we were outscored without him on the court. It's also a fact that we outscored the Nuggets with him on the court.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

its analogous to the rasho haters who say nazr plays better defense than him and then for proof they point to his offensive rebounds

[MadDog73]

my point is that Barry doesn't have to start to be able to do that...


Is that your only point?!? Thanks for pointing that out. However, as long as we're winning games with Barry starting, I don't see him coming off the bench.

I STILL don't get what problem you have with that... it seems all this anger is coming from that one horrible game 1 where not even Tim played well!

Maybe Barry would have fixed it, maybe he wouldn't.

FACT: Since Barry has started, we haven't had to find out!

Just what would you like for Pop to do... LOSE some games just to prove you right?

[Useruser666]

So Barry's playing great? Is that what you are saying?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

We're in for a rude awakening (offensively) when PJ leaves us

[whottt]

Until we lose a game, I fail to see your argument that Pop is doing something wrong.

What about Barry's start last night did you find objectionable?

If Barry starts, we don't need him in the fourth, 'cause we're LEADING.

I don't like it because it's a lazy solution to the problem...it's Hedo revisted...

#1.It still didn't work last year.

#2.The reason it worked for Hedo was because he wanted to start, he wanted the numbers so he could get paid....Barry doesn't care, he just wants to win.

I bitch because starting is not the solution to the problem...giving him time running the point is...and it's something we are doing now...but the haters need to recognize the cause of the problem and stop blaming the victim.


Did you read this? The two games where Barry played the fewest minutes in the 4th we blew a 6 point lead and an 8 point lead...the loss and the OT game. We never lost the lead with Barry on the court.

IMO you want Barry in the game with the lead in the 4th over any other time. Even if it's just for a couple of minutes.

[MadDog73]

So Barry's playing great? Is that what you are saying?

Barry is playing better than Beno.

He's playing well enough to win games.

And hopefully he will continue to improve.

That's good enough for me, anyway!

[Useruser666]

So Barry is playing great?

[ducks]

has anyone said beno was the cesond coming like barry?

[whottt]

So Barry's playing great? Is that what you are saying?

He's like Horry...you can't judge his impact by stats.

You look at team performance, +/-, and W-L record...and you see his value...

And BTW...he was 12 3 pointers away from being a 40% shooter...in a new role.

Only in San Antonio does a guy outshooting Jack and Kerr in his first season mean that he sucks....

[MadDog73]

Did you read this? The two games where Barry played the fewest minutes in the 4th we blew a 6 point lead and an 8 point lead...the loss and the OT game. We never lost the lead with Barry on the court.

IMO you want Barry in the game with the lead in the 4th over any other time. Even if it's just for a couple of minutes.


That's fine with me. I think Bowen CAN be a liability with his poor shooting and FT% in a close game. I also understand that Barry is not as good a defender as Bowen is.

But I think Barry should be in the final minutes of close games, if for no other reason to prepare him for the eventuality where Bruce or Manu is is foul trouble.

[whottt]

has anyone said beno was the cesond coming like barry?

He's not the second coming...but he is a very good player...and no one is saying he is the second coming...only proving how ignroant the Barry haters are...

Anyone with an objective mind will admit that the Barry haters got fucking assrapred in this thread.

Deal with it ducky!

[MadDog73]

So Barry is playing great?

What do you want me to say? Do these numbers suck?

MPG -- 26.5
PPG -- 7.2
FG% -- .481
3P% -- .389
FT% -- .833
Reb -- 2.2
Assists -- 2.5

How anyone can hate Barry at this point is beyond me....

Hate him when he leaves next year to go to the Atlanta Hawks, then cry about it for years afterwords... "Oh, I wish Brent Barry was back. We would have won Championships like in 2005 only if we had Barry."

It's riduculous what some people expect and/or selectively remember from ROLE PLAYERS.

Barry doing great for his role. Period.

[ducks]

would you keep big dog or barry if you could only keep one whott?

[whottt]

its analogous to the rasho haters who say nazr plays better defense than him and then for proof they point to his offensive rebounds


LMAO...you are right!

[Useruser666]

Are those playoff numbers?

[MadDog73]

would you keep big dog or barry if you could only keep one whott?


I'll answer that. We'll get whoever is the best deal. :rolleyes

[MadDog73]

Are those playoff numbers?

YES. http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/

(maybe if people actually looked at his stats, they wouldn't be so quick to judge)

[whottt]

would you keep big dog or barry if you could only keep one whott?


Hmmm...

It's a tough question...

Let me be clear on this...Glenn Robinson is a better player than Brent Barry. He's also younger.

But he also has a history of alcohol and attitude problems...

What you have here is one guy that used to being a supporting player(not a role player) with a good attitude and one guy who is used to dominating the ball and carrying the team but has kind of a bad rep...

It's tough question...I think it's just bad karma to trade guys who took less to come here though and have been stand out team players, even if they have underachived in the stat dept...this means Rasho and Barry.




FWIW...I think the Spurs will try and trade Barry and Rasho this summer in order to bring Scola over and resign Bigg Dogg...it's the only way they can do it IMO. And if they use the MLE on Bigg Dogg they can't use it on Scola next summer when his contract his up...and they will lose his rights or have to trade him without leverage...

But I do think the Spurs want Bigg Dogg back...you'd have to be a fool not too...

Bigg Dogg playing his A game is right there with Manu and near Duncan as far as his ability to carry a team in a game.

[ducks]

I think if spurs resign horry
they may leave scola over one more year and resign big dog with all the mle
but it al ldepends on the new cba

[whottt]

You know what would be awesome?

IF the new CBA gives you a separate exception for second round picks and does away with the lux tax...

This would mean the Spurs could have Robinson, Barry, Scola...resign Devin, keep Horry...even keep Rasho and Nazr...if they wanted...


That team would dominate the NBA for the next 3 or 4 seasons.

[Useruser666]

YES. http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/

(maybe if people actually looked at his stats, they wouldn't be so quick to judge)

(maybe if people don't lump everyone who questions a player's performance together, they wouldn't be so quick jump on them)

I never said Brent sucked in the playoffs. I had said he hadn't brought much this season, and wasn't forfilling his role as a 3 point shooter. Of the threes he has hit, not many have been crucial for Spur victories. I don't think he has performed that badly in the post season so far, but that is only 6 games to draw a conclusion from. Maybe his role with team has become different than what he was originally brought here for?

[whottt]

I think if spurs resign horry
they may leave scola over one more year and resign big dog with all the mle
but it al ldepends on the new cba

If they sign Bigg Dogg with the MLE this summer they can't use it to sign Scola when his Tau contract is up...and then they could lose Scola, a hot international prospect, for nothing....

Also Horry has a player option for next season...get him to play it out and then give him a wink wink deal to take care of him once we get his early bird rights...

Horry will go for that and he could have have a contract like Ferry had when he retired...one that is a valuable trade commodity, a team option in the second year, for the MLE or something....

But the real problem is Big Dogg or Scola...right now there is no way to get them both without a trade. Maybe the new CBA will change that.

Hell we might even be able to see what Javtokas has to offer...

[MadDog73]

(maybe if people don't lump everyone who questions a player's performance together, they wouldn't be so quick jump on them)

I never said Brent sucked in the playoffs. I had said he hadn't brought much this season, and wasn't forfilling his role as a 3 point shooter. Of the threes he has hit, not many have been crucial for Spur victories. I don't think he has performed that badly in the post season so far, but that is only 6 games to draw a conclusion from. Maybe his role with team has become different than what he was originally brought here for?


Fair enough. I think Beno exceeded expectations as well (was Barry supposed to play point?)

All in all, so far it's pretty damn amazing what this team as accomplished with all the injuries and new starters. I mean, how long did Nasr get to start before being thrown into the playoffs for the first time? And Robinson?!? Amazing, considering he hasn't even played most of the year.

I don't know if the coaching staff is just that good or we're just lucky as Hell, (or maybe a little of both). :D

[picnroll]

There was talk about the MLE being split in the new CBA

[ChumpDumper]

If they sign Bigg Dogg with the MLE this summer they can't use it to sign Scola when his Tau contract is up...and then they could lose Scola, a hot international prospect, for nothing....His contract won't be up if he doesn't buy himself out. If he does, the Spurs have a certain amount of time to sign him and only have to make something like a minimum offer to keep his rights if he signs to play again in Europe (I'd have to look up the exact terms).
Also Horry has a player option for next season...get him to play it out and then give him a wink wink deal to take care of him once we get his early bird rights...We'll have his early Bird rights this summer.

[whottt]

His contract won't be up if he doesn't buy himself out. If he does, the Spurs have a certain amount of time to sign him and only have to make something like a minimum offer to keep his rights if he signs to play again in Europe (I'd have to look up the exact terms).

He's got 1 year left on his contract...if we wait until next summer we don't have to buy him out. Basically if we wait until next summer it's Gordan Giricek part 2, bring him over or lose him...yes we can trade him...and yes were aren't as likely to get as much in return if we do.

Although since he won't have a buyout it's possible we could use the LLE to get him...

Personally I don't want to trade Scola...I am not sold on his NBA ability yet...but that doesn't mean I don't want to give him a try.




We'll have his early Bird rights this summer.


How can we have Horry's early bird rights when we renounced his rights last summer? That's what you said earlier...


You are contradicting yourself here...blatantly.

You gave me shit and said I didn't know what I was talking about when I talked about using his early bird rights this summer....You alluded to the fact that they renounced his rights last summer when they opted out of the second year of his deal...

[SequSpur]

Barry is Due!

Believe

[SpursFanDan]

You're also due for a growth spurt... has that happened yet?

[SequSpur]

You're also due for a growth spurt... has that happened yet?

Keep it to the topic. Don't waste forum space.

-God

[SpursFanDan]

Thats on topic... I'm basically saying that hes not due for whatever you think hes "due" for.

-your dad

[ChumpDumper]

You gave me shit and said I didn't know what I was talking about when I talked about using his early bird rights this summer....You alluded to the fact that they renounced his rights last summer when they opted out of the second year of his deal...Go back and read it. I told you then what I am telling you now -- we'll have early Bird rights on Horry this summer.

Then apologize.

[ChumpDumper]

Even though the Spurs renounced Horry last summer, they will have early Bird rights to him next summer. Whottt will verfy this as I am leaving for SA now.link (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=222472&highlight=bird+rights+horry#post222472)

[ChumpDumper]

YYou gave me shit and said I didn't know what I was talking about when I talked about using his early bird rights this summer....You alluded to the fact that they renounced his rights last summer when they opted out of the second year of his deal...That was when you were arguing Horry's deal was for more than the minimum the first year. I informed you he was renounced and suggested you find out what that means -- in that case it meant the Spurs could only offer Horry a minimum contract. You didn't and wrongly concluded that the renouncing meant no early Bird rights in the summer of 05. I again suggested you do a bit of reading since that is not the case. You still haven't.

[whottt]

And here's what I said originally, douchebag:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13419&page=1&highlight=Horry+early+bird+rights


We didn't have anything but the minimum to sign him with for this year....it's a 2 year deal...and since it's not his first year with the team I suggest you go study the salary cap FAQ. Furthermore a 2 year deal pays better in the second year than two 1 year deals with a renouncemnt of rights will......go study it, or not only will you get owned on talent evaluations...you will get owned on the salary cap, my weakest area.

And finally...I advocated showing interest in Horry and making Bowen like commitments beyond this season...that may not show up in the initial year...he does have a player option you notice? And we will have his early bird rights next season...So you don't know what was promised or what changed that situation...

But obviously a 2 year deal means that they did make concessions to Horry over a standard vet min contract, which is my ultimate point..the degree of those concessions won't be known until next year...


to which you responded:




Horry was renounced last summer. You run along and learn what that means.


And now you totally contradict yourself....I generally considered you to be more knowledgable on the subject of the cap than myself...I think it's pretty obvious I need to reconsider that....

[ChumpDumper]

See above -- one step ahead of you. I didn't spoon feed you what renouncing actually means because I wanted to see if you'd actually look. All you did was continue with your ignorance. Congratulations.

[whottt]

That was when you were arguing Horry's deal was for more than the minimum the first year. I informed you he was renounced and suggested you find out what that means -- in that case it meant the Spurs could only offer Horry a minimum contract. You didn't and wrongly concluded that the renouncing meant no early Bird rights in the summer of 05. I again suggested you do a bit of reading since that is not the case. You still haven't.



Then I suggest you take your own advice and run along and find out what renounce means....

[whottt]

More like a lame attempt to cover your own ass...Who do you think you are fooling...

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not foooling anyone. You're just mixed up about eight times over and still don't know what you are talking about a month later. Just admit you didn't look anything up.

[whottt]

Sorry but you using an incorrect term for what the Spurs did in no way explains you making that statment in the context with which it was made...

If the Spurs did renounce Horry then they no longer have his early bird rights. You said they did...

[ChumpDumper]

If the Spurs did renounce Horry then they no longer have his early bird rights. You said they did...No I didn't. That was the conlusion to which your ignorance led you. If you had looked it up like a suggested you wouldn't still be going on like this.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry but you using an incorrect term for what the Spurs didWhat term? The term used in the actual CBA? Take it up with them.

[ChumpDumper]

[Final Jeopardy music plays while whottt googles "NBA collective bargaining agreement"]

[whottt]

30. What does renouncing a player mean?
As detailed in question number 27, free agents continue to count toward team salary. By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right until the following June 30 to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 16) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player (the previous CBA prevented teams from re-signing a renounced player until 55 days into the regular season), but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player without using one of the three "Bird" exceptions.

For example, in August 1999 Charles Oakley was renounced by the Toronto Raptors. Had they not renounced him, the Raptors could have re-signed Oakley for any amount up to the maximum $14 million using the Larry Bird exception. Following the renouncement, they were only allowed to give him up to the $6 million they had available under the cap.

After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 69).






Horry was renounced last summer. You run along and learn what that means.







We'll have his early Bird rights this summer.




Go back and read it. I told you then what I am telling you now -- we'll have early Bird rights on Horry this summer.

Then apologize.


Maybe it's just that you don't speak fucking English...but I am enjoying watching your excuses become more and more incomprehensible.


Since I already thought we had his early bird rights...your fucking original statement is stupid...


And if Horry retires this year...he makes 2.3 million...is that a minimum contract?

[ChumpDumper]

Hilarious. You read it, copied and pasted it and you still didn't get it.

Your dumbass was arguing that Horry was getting something more than a minimum contract as defined by the CBA. I informed his rights were renounced. Had you stopped right there and educated yourself instead of waiting an entire month with your thumb up your ass, you wouldn't have lived with your next ignorant assumption that the Spurs would not have early Bird rights on Horry after this season.

I merely told you to find out what renouncing means. You have no quote of mine saying the Spurs wouldn't have early Bird rights this summer. Admit it.

[ChumpDumper]

Since I already thought we had his early bird rights...your fucking original statement is stupid...Nope. My mere statement that he was renounced made you think the Spurs wouldn't have any rights this summer. I'm flattered I have such power over you.
And if Horry retires this year...he makes 2.3 million...is that a minimum contract?Since the contract was signed using the minimum contract exception, absolutely. If you can find another name for it in the CBA, link it now.

[whottt]

Hilarious. You read it, copied and pasted it and you still didn't get it.

Your dumbass was arguing that Horry was getting something more than a minimum contract as defined by the CBA. I informed his rights were renounced. Had you stopped right there and educated yourself instead of waiting an entire month with your thumb up your ass, you wouldn't have lived with your next ignorant assumption that the Spurs would not have early Bird rights on Horry after this season.

I merely told you to find out what renouncing means. You have no quote of mine saying the Spurs wouldn't have early Bird rights this summer. Admit it.

#1.I was never arguing anything as defined by the CBA...wink wink deals aren't allowed by the CBA now are they? Horry is covered to make more than the mimimum if he chooses...either he can retire or he can opt out and resign...which do you think he's going to do?

Do you think he's still going to be getting the minimum next season?

#2. It's you that doesn't get it...sadly.

Bottom line...we do have Horry's bird rights, as I originally thought.
Bottom line...the deal we gave Horry was the maximum we could give him at the time.
Bottom line...their renunciation of his rights has no fucking relevance to anything. You alluded that it did...it doesn't.

[ChumpDumper]

It's hilariousm I said you would verify the Spurs would have the early Bird rights in my absence because I made the silly assumption you actually looked it up. I apologize for thinking you were even that intelligent.

[whottt]

And I apologize for thinking you made a relevant point...The only lack of intelligence I exhibited was giving you credit for making one. It won't happen again...

Grunting, twisting, obtuseness and vagueness are your only definable character traits. I should have known...

[ChumpDumper]

Bottom line...we do have Horry's bird rights, as I originally thought. Then changed your mind when I posted what to you was a magic word.
Bottom line...the deal we gave Horry was the maximum we could give him at the time.Which was the minimum, as dictated by the fact he was renounced, you disputed he was even renounced.
Bottom line...their renunciation of his rights has no fucking relevance to anything. You alluded that it did...it doesn't.See above. You drew the wrong conclusion that it also affected his early Bird rights this summer.

See what you learned?

See what you could've learned a month ago?

Bravo.

[whottt]

Then changed your mind when I posted the magic word.

Since the only discernable relevance that point could have had was concerning his early bird rights, you fucking douche...you are right I did..like I said...I gave you more credit then you deserved. It won't happen again...even when it comes to the salary cap...my admittedly weakest area of basketball knowledge.




Which was the minimum, as dictated by the fact he was renounced.See above. You drew the wrong conclusion that it also affected his early Bird rights this summer.

Well damn you fucking tard...what was the fucking point of making that statment....I knew the Spurs opted out of his old deal for 5 mil per season...


See what you learned?

See what you could've learned a month ago?

Bravo.

Yawn...STFU. You think you can have more luck on a weak area of mine?

Again I repeat...my original belief was accurate...we did have his early bird rights, and you don't know what was promised next season...the fact that he can opt out or retire with a extra pay means something no matter how you slice it.

So you stated nothing of relevance...and I never claimed to be cap expert, ever, under any circumstances, nor it a major goal of mine to become one...

But I do now feel secure that I have a greater knowledge of it than you do...without ever studying it...period....because I know when something is relevant or isn't.

You OTOH need to pull your head out of the fucking cap and learn what a good player is by looking at something more than PPG.

[wildbill2u]

Barry gets props from Pop and others for playing good defense on Allen and Lewis. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Great stat line for a bench player, even though he's starting.

I had to find this thread and bring it back to life. How say you now, Barry bashers?

[ctpsb]

I'll throw my two cents' worth in here. As much as Barry's shooting woes frustrate me, he seems to be doing what the team needs him to do to keep winning. Example: Many observers including Barkley were saying the Spurs had to start Manu because of Rashard Lewis. Well Barry still started, Lewis has been contained and Manu can still come off the bench. Second Barry has actually been OK defensively on Ray Ray just like he was on Melo. Also it seems Barry comes down with some otherwise tough rebounds. However he really does need to pick it up on the shooting end (though he's had some nice finishes on the break).

Any thougths out there?

[picnroll]

Doesn't the Horry, Bird rights, CBA argument deserve it's own mind numbing thread?

by the way whottt Barry's wife is getting jealous.

[MadDog73]

Question:

Does anybody here still think Barry sucks? I don't.

So, what are we arguing about again?