Spurs Going Small

[mavsfan1000]

Surprised they didn't do this. Jefferson could get his game going if Dirk had to defend him on the perimeter. Making Dirk work on defense is the best way to take his rhythm away given the defenders you have. Mcdyess and Bonner don't make Dirk work hard on either end.

[bobby4germany]

Finley, is that you?

[mavsfan1000]

Finley, is that you?
Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

[bobby4germany]

:toast LOL 2007

[coyotes_geek]

Jefferson has proven an ability to disappear no matter what the situation. So there's no guarantee that smallball turns him into a contributor. The Spurs problem against the mavs is rebounding and going small only makes it worse. There are teams out there against whom I think the Spurs could be successful going small against, but the mavs aren't one of them.

[mavsfan1000]

Jefferson has proven an ability to disappear no matter what the situation. So there's no guarantee that smallball turns him into a contributor. The Spurs problem against the mavs is rebounding and going small only makes it worse. There are teams out there against whom I think the Spurs could be successful going small against, but the mavs aren't one of them.
With Butler or Marion out there guarding Jefferson, expect to not see much working for him. Putting him at PF gives him a speed advantage. Stephen Jackson took huge advantage of that with the Warriors. Dirk shot horribly in that series as well. If Jefferson could do half as good as Jackson, the spurs could change the rhythm of this series. More of an uptempo game that the Warriors played.

[cd98]

Thanks for the suggestion Mavfan1000, but the Spurs tried to play Jefferson at power forward, and Jefferson himself complained about playing out of position. And his play did not improve until Pop decided to make him a full-time small forward.

[TDomination]

Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

They also played with a wreckless type formula, if your semi-open shoot the ball. if you have the ball in your hands, shoot the ball.

[mavsfan1000]

Thanks for the suggestion Mavfan1000, but the Spurs tried to play Jefferson at power forward, and Jefferson himself complained about playing out of position. And his play did not improve until Pop decided to make him a full-time small forward.
What was his complaint? I guess most of the time he would be better suited at SF but not in this particular matchup. Make sure to double team Dirk and be quick with the rotations as what the Warriors did. Small ball allows for quicker rotations. Maybe he isn't smart enough to bother bigger players or being the key to a small ball scheme unlike Stephen Jackson and Marion.

[coyotes_geek]

With Butler or Marion out there guarding Jefferson, expect to not see much working for him. Putting him at PF gives him a speed advantage. Stephen Jackson took huge advantage of that with the Warriors. Dirk shot horribly in that series as well. If Jefferson could do half as good as Jackson, the spurs could change the rhythm of this series. More of an uptempo game that the Warriors played.

Jefferson had a speed advantage on most nights this season. He was still incredibly inconsistent. If the Spurs are going to win this series it's going to have to be with rebounding. Jefferson as a PF doesn't help that cause. Despite the Spurs turning the ball over 17 times the Spurs still put up 94 points. They'll be able to score enough points in this series and that's the only potential benefit smallball would give. What I'm worried about being able to keep the mavs below 100, and the only way that's going to be able to happen is if the Spurs can limit mav possessions by controlling the glass.

[mavsfan1000]

A healthy Hill would be needed for small ball to work though. Might encourage Carlisle to bring Barea in as well. lol
C Duncan
PF Jefferson
SF Ginobili
SG Hill
PG Parker

[senorglory]

What was his complaint? He said it was a hard transition to a new team when he was officially learning the SF position, but playing his minutes at the PF.

[Muser]

Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

2006 WCSF proof that it doesn't?

[MAZTEXAS]

SPURS N 6:flag::lobt::flag::lobt::flag::lobt::flag::lobt:S PURS N 6

[Xevious]

I said the same thing in another thread. The idea of small ball makes me want to throw up, but it actually makes sense in this case. Dirk would tire having to chase Jefferson around on Defense. And on the other end it really doesn't matter. He shot damn near perfect over Bonner and McDyess, it's impossible for Jefferson to do any worse. Dirk isn't much of a rebounder for his size, so I'm not worried about that. But it does give Butler and Marion a huge size advantage if we play small. It's a risk, so I don't we'll see it in game 2. But if they drop this next game, I expect to see some different lineups out there.

At the very least, Parker needs to start game 2.

[Doe]

What was his complaint?

He felt in addition to learning a new system, he was having to do things he'd never done before, such as guarding PF's (understandable) and inbounding the ball (WTF?).

Besides that, RJ's straight line drives to the basket are easily stopped by most perimeter defenders. I wouldn't exactly be shocked if Dirk was able to stop these as well. Perhaps if RJ could be in constant motion and it could have merit.

Also that line up you proposed would leave the Spurs undersized at just about every position assuming the Mavs went with Kidd-Butler-Marion. If I recall the Warriors matched up better size wise on those positions. Hill can be and Manu is a good rebounder for his size but I still wouldn't be comfortable giving up that much size in the backcourt as well as the front line.

[FkLA]

http://www.laht.com/mexico/EmilianoZapata.jpg

I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

[timvpimp]

IIRC the spurs tried going small in game one but didn't work very well. Obviously that Jefferson-Blair-Manu-Hill-Mason lineup wasn't small enough IMHO, Parker and temple should be substituted in place of Blair and Jefferson then the Mavs get killed.

[jermaine]

Finley, is that you?

LMAO! I think I've seen the day Spurs fans fear the Mavs! You muthafuckas have dogged Pop about him playing smallball all year & now yal are saying that's what we need to do!?! I done seen it all. (But that could work!) Lol

[mogrovejo]

I think the Spurs need to go big in the backcourt, not small in the frontcourt. When the Mavs play Kidd-Butler-Marion in the perimeter, the Spurs need to counter with Ginobili-Bogans-Jefferson. Then use Parker against Terry/Barea.

[spursrocks]

we are doomed. i smell another 1st round exit with small ball line up

[Dex]

Going small worked for the Warriors in 2007 because they were quick and athletic. The Spurs don't have that option. Our only quick and athletic bigman is still so green that he'd get punked by Nowitzki or Haywood, and would probably foul out in 10 minutes.

I've wondered how running against the Mavs would work. Offensively, I think it could open up some lanes for us. Defensively, I hate to get in a sprinting match with guys like Kidd, Marion, and Butler, because I'm pretty sure the Spurs would lose that matchup.

[Obstructed_View]

Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

The Warriors had a relatively small team of really fast athletic guys who could rebound and block (They led the league in blocks that year IIRC). Putting four crappy guards and an undersized center out there is exactly what Pop did when the Mavs jumped out to the biggest lead of the game early in the 4th quarter.

[TJastal]

I said the same thing in another thread. The idea of small ball makes me want to throw up, but it actually makes sense in this case. Dirk would tire having to chase Jefferson around on Defense. And on the other end it really doesn't matter. He shot damn near perfect over Bonner and McDyess, it's impossible for Jefferson to do any worse. Dirk isn't much of a rebounder for his size, so I'm not worried about that. But it does give Butler and Marion a huge size advantage if we play small. It's a risk, so I don't we'll see it in game 2. But if they drop this next game, I expect to see some different lineups out there.

At the very least, Parker needs to start game 2.

Brilliant analysis. Start Parker, which we all know reduces Jefferson to standstill spot up shooter and make Dirk work more on defense (cuz we all know guarding a guy standing on the perimeter is tough).

[elec99]

Dont think small ball is the answer. You have to gap a difference of 6+ points.

It starts with limiting TOs. Our TOS almost guarantees a fastbreak for them, and either a guaranteed 2 or at least a foul. Whereas when they turnover, we either hold the ball and walk up the court, or we make a failed attempt at a fastbreak. Limit our TOs by limiting the fancy passes in the paint, these guys are long and their arms are always looking to deflect a pass.

And free throws. I'm not too bummed out when dirk gets fouled, considering he's probably gonna make the shot anyways. But I'd rather contest a shot and have him make it then send him to the line, cause once we're in the penalty then that sends ALL their players to the line. (I dont mind dampier going to the line though). So, gotta quit fouling unless its an easy dampier dunk.

The mavs are a jump shooting team, thats why they cannot win the finals. Limit them to jumpshots. Jumpshots eventually dry up, and they have noone that can drive against a good D. Mavs will eventually meet a team that will collapse in the paint the same way they do against parker, I just hope that team is us.

[TJastal]

The Warriors had a relatively small team of really fast athletic guys who could rebound and block (They led the league in blocks that year IIRC). Putting four crappy guards and an undersized center out there is exactly what Pop did when the Mavs jumped out to the biggest lead of the game early in the 4th quarter.

That might have worked a few years ago, but not now when the mavs always have at least one tough 7 footer on the floor at all times who can crash the boards and make a team pay for going small.

[elec99]

If you look at the stats, we actually took and made more shots then they did. We just kept sending them to the line. Make them make their shots (jumpshots, no drives). If they can do that, then they deserve to win.

[Old School 44]

Surprised they didn't do this. Jefferson could get his game going if Dirk had to defend him on the perimeter. Making Dirk work on defense is the best way to take his rhythm away given the defenders you have. Mcdyess and Bonner don't make Dirk work hard on either end.

I don't think the Spurs should go small. Dirk's going to get his, just stop or contain everyone else, particularly Kidd. Somebody suggested playing Mahinmi on Dirk, which isn't a bad idea. Not because I think Mahinmi is going to stop him or even do any better than Bonner, but I think you play Mahinmi because he's expendable on offense. I just want him to shadow Dirk, don't play him so close he's going to foul out in 6 minutes. I'd pressure Kidd with Hill (if healthy), Bogans, Temple...make him work.

With Bonner expending so much energy defending Dirk, it just kills his overall confidence and his offense (three point shooting), same for McDyess and Jefferson.

[Obstructed_View]

That might have worked a few years ago, but not now when the mavs always have at least one tough 7 footer on the floor at all times who can crash the boards and make a team pay for going small.

The point is that the Warriors had guys that were playing their natural position. Putting Keith Bogans as your power forward next to DeJuan Blair is even stupider than having Michael Finley as your power forward next to Robert Horry, and the latter failed quite convincingly in '06.

[z0sa]

The point is that the Warriors had guys that were playing their natural position. Putting Keith Bogans as your power forward next to DeJuan Blair is even stupider than having Michael Finley as your power forward next to Robert Horry, and the latter failed quite convincingly in '06.

Putting Keith Bogans as PF is always the stupidest move available.

[wildbill2u]

Surprised they didn't do this. Jefferson could get his game going if Dirk had to defend him on the perimeter. Making Dirk work on defense is the best way to take his rhythm away given the defenders you have. Mcdyess and Bonner don't make Dirk work hard on either end.

Why would you bother to defend him on the perimeter?

[Xevious]

The point is that the Warriors had guys that were playing their natural position. Putting Keith Bogans as your power forward next to DeJuan Blair is even stupider than having Michael Finley as your power forward next to Robert Horry, and the latter failed quite convincingly in '06.
Nobody suggested putting Bogans in as PF and Blair as C. That's a doomed lineup. Smallball would only work with Duncan in the middle and Jefferson at PF. And RJ can't stand on the perimeter shooting jumpers... if he isn't driving to the basket and moving on offense to make Dirk work, there's no point.

[Obstructed_View]

So the suggestion is to put in a small lineup when the Mavs' first unit is on the floor, and having Richard Jefferson guard Dirk because Duncan will foul out in five minutes against Dirk.

Um...whut?

[Mark in Austin]

Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

Actually, it was the Mavs that went small against the Warriors. Warriors didn't change what they did all year.

[sefant77]

Warriors 2007 not enough proof that small ball does work against the mavs?

And its 2007 anymore, Dirk is much better against double teams, specially his passing and if he pass out of the double team its not to Harris who has no idea what to do with the ball, the ball goes back to Kidd...

[Bob Lanier]

Yeah, the Pistons tried that strategy in Game 7 of the 2005 Finals after Dice picked up his fourth foul.

Tayshaun Prince at power forward.

Duncan goes apeshit on a couple of switches.

Lead vanishes.

Spurs win.

Dice finishes game with 4 fouls.

SMALLBALL NEVER WORKS.

[senorglory]

And its 2007 anymore, Dirk is much better against double teams, specially his passing and if he pass out of the double team its not to Harris who has no idea what to do with the ball, the ball goes back to Kidd...

good point.