Marc Stein: "Jefferson Gets A Failing Grade"

[biba]

Jefferson Gets A Failing Grade

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com Daily Dime
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100418/daily-dime

DALLAS -- Publicly unloading on his players already? After a six-point road loss in Game 1 of the first round?

That seems early even for the famously volcanic Gregg Popovich.

Yet when it comes to the struggles of Richard Jefferson -- who sits at the forefront of the San Antonio supporting casters who so enraged their coach in Sunday's 100-94 loss to the Dallas Mavericks -- what we heard from Pop at the postgame podium was almost certainly a season's worth of frustration spilling out.

This series with their familiar in-state rivals is only just starting, but the Spurs have been waiting more than six months for their expensive trade gamble on Jefferson to pay off with a reasonable degree of frequency. The onset of the playoffs, however, did not spawn a new Jefferson, who regressed to a virtual nonentity in his Spurs postseason debut.

While his old New Jersey pal Jason Kidd was threatening to record a triple-double (13 points, 11 assists and 8 rebounds) in support of Dirk Nowitzki's ridiculously efficient 36 points on 14 shots, Jefferson managed just four points (on a layup and a couple free of throws) in 32 quiet minutes.

"I think we've got to have a few more people step up and play worth a damn," Popovich said. "I thought we had a lot of guys that played like dogs."

It was the sort of biting commentary that only a few coaches in this league -- Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan might be the only others -- can deliver without repercussions. It also couldn't have helped Pop's mood that George Hill tried to play on his injured ankle and lasted only 18 scoreless minutes before it became clear that he's not yet ready to go.

But there was little doubt on this night that Jefferson was one of the main targets of Pop's ire, along with the 17 turnovers the Spurs committed as a team and what he deemed to be a substandard group effort on the boards.

You could actually rationalize the sloppiness on both sides -- "It was a lot of turnovers for Mavs-Spurs," Nowitzki conceded -- because the teams know each so well and are so good at disrupting each other's offenses. It's harder for the Spurs to accept that a player making just over $14 million who nudged their payroll to nearly $80 million for the season can't find more ways to make an impact. Dallas' Caron Butler was the newcomer to the rivalry you noticed most, with his 22 points and considerable aggression.

The reality, though, is that Jefferson has always done his best work in transition but now plays in a system that favors spot-up shooters and doesn't allow for much creativity unless you're named Parker or Ginobili. The Spurs also won't generate the open looks on the perimeter in this matchup as often as they once did because Tim Duncan doesn't command double-teams against Dallas.

The Spurs are the last team in the NBA tournament field that's going to overreact to 1-0 series deficit, but it's likewise clear that they've got multiple issues to address -- on top of their long-standing problem defending Nowitzki -- to manufacture four wins in the next six games over the surging-in-confidence Mavs.

While Erick Dampier and Brendan Haywood were taking turns making Duncan work for his 27 points, Manu Ginobili (26 points) and Tony Parker (18) continue to get reacquainted after not playing together regularly since early January. That resulted in the strange sight of Parker's spotting up on the weak side for much of Sunday's fourth quarter while Ginobili dominated the ball.

So ...

Two things to watch for from here from the Spurs' perspective:

1. How Jefferson responds to Pop's call-out.

2. How Parker handles his new sixth-man role as he continues his recovery from a broken hand ... and whether he stays in that role.

Parker insisted after the defeat that he expects to keep coming off the bench because Popovich always wants a potential game-changing scorer to send in behind the starters. "I'm Manu Junior now," Parker keeps saying.

But we'll see whether Popovich can resist re-instating Parker to the starting lineup and keep using him as a Ginobili-style wild card. Although he surely doesn't want to start both Parker and Ginobili, Pop might find that easier to stomach than waiting for Jefferson to find a niche.

[tmtcsc]

From the water is wet department...

[coyotes_geek]

Though I hate to be thinking about the offseason already, I look forward to being able to dump Jefferson's expiring contract off on somebody this offseason. Assuming of course RJ doesn't screw us by opting out.

Then again, if he opts out that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

[objective]

$15 million dollar Udoka.

[lcroock]

Though I hate to be thinking about the offseason already, I look forward to being able to dump Jefferson's expiring contract off on somebody this offseason. Assuming of course RJ doesn't screw us by opting out.

Then again, if he opts out that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

Jefferson opting out actually helps out slightly with respect to how much we'll be able to spend. As it stands we'll have the MLE (which will be roughly equivalent to a starting salary of $4-5M). If RJ opts out then we'd be at 51M, $5M under the 56.1M salary cap. We could also not pick up the team options on Hairston/Gee which would give us an additional $1.5M. That way we could maybe land someone else like Mo Evans in addition to Tiago.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs could have just kept Finley and gotten 4 points and an ass-raping from Butler. At least his ass is gone no later than next year, so this trade doesn't quite reach the level of failure of the Charles Smith deal 15 years ago.

[rjv]

RJ opting out would not be terrible and it would then give us more options when it comes to tiago (who would be a player that could at least stay with dirk laterally and be as tall) but then we would be at a loss for a slasher and 4th option scorer again, and i doubt we would find such a player with what money we would have. but then again, who could be worse than jefferson ?

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs are the last team in the NBA tournament field that's going to overreact to 1-0 series deficit, but it's likewise clear that they've got multiple issues to address -- on top of their long-standing problem defending Nowitzki -- to manufacture four wins in the next six games over the surging-in-confidence Mavs.
Considering how the Spurs were clueless in defending Dirk in that epic WCSF series in 2006, and considering how the Fakers upgraded and "lengthened" their frontline in 2008, it's obvious that the Spurs have needed to add length to their frontline for some time now. That said, it's inexcusable to me how the FO has failed to directly address this deficiency all this time. For this post, I'm electing to ignore Splitter because he's not here, which makes him the proverbial "bird in the bush". He doesn't count, since he's not here - meaning he can't help.

There has been ample time to either draft, acquire, develop or trade for a big that could provide adequate help to, not only help defend a player like Dirk, but also provide some relief Duncan. Many of us ask the question, "where's Ian?" Pop hasn't done himself, his team, or this kid any favors by stunting the development of this kid, by icing him to the bench for most of the season.

Meanwhile, Pop insists on countering with his usual series of small-ball lineups featuring a collection of inferior PFs and SFs, who masquerade as 5's.

Back to the point of the thread, I hold out absolutely no hope for RJ. By now, if we've not seen a pulse from him before, we're not going to see one now. Chalk that acquisition up as a failure.

[coyotes_geek]

Jefferson opting out actually helps out slightly with respect to how much we'll be able to spend. As it stands we'll have the MLE (which will be roughly equivalent to a starting salary of $4-5M). If RJ opts out then we'd be at 51M, $5M under the 56.1M salary cap. We could also not pick up the team options on Hairston/Gee which would give us an additional $1.5M. That way we could maybe land someone else like Mo Evans in addition to Tiago.

The Spurs will be better off being over the cap than they would being just under it. Between the MLE, BAE and the 1st round exception the Spurs would need to be about $8 mil under the cap to have potential cap room worth getting excited about. The benefit to Jefferson opting out would be on the luxury tax front, with another potential benefit of being able to sign and trade RJ somewhere.

[Spurs Brazil]

The reality, though, is that Jefferson has always done his best work in transition but now plays in a system that favors spot-up shooters and doesn't allow for much creativity unless you're named Parker or Ginobili.

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????

If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

[SenorSpur]

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????
If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

That is the 15 million dollar question.

Boy, do I wish the FO would've acquired SJax instead?

[NFGIII]

For RJ to break out he will need more minutes with Manu rather than TP. He played with TP way too much IMO for his style of BB to be implemented. Though I give some credit to TP for trying to work with RJ those two just don't seem to complement one another.

RJ's numbers improved when he played mostly with Manu. HIll's injury and Pop's tinkering with how to use TP has been thrown RJ out of sync. Now I'm a firm believer that RJ needs to get over this and get into the game. Be more agressive on the boards and man up on D.

We'll see what adjustments Pop makes for game 2.

[rjv]

the other option is that you hope he breaks out in his second season after having one under his belt. there have been spurs before who struggled in their first year here.

[NFGIII]

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????

If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

^


That is the 15 million dollar question.

Boy, do I wish the FO would've acquired SJax instead?

More like 30 million but at this point it really doesn't matter. What matters is that in order to get him going he will need more of his style of play. More fast breaks lead by Manu but that means rebounds and they are at a premium aaginst the Mavs.

Yeah, what would SJax be able to do palying for the Spurs. He would fit right in that's for sure.

But apart from that Stein has a very impertant point - why did our FO trade for a player that didn't play our brand of BB? In hindsight it seems that they were trying to conjure up a player that didn't exist. The cracks in the FO are showing more these days than they ever did.

[The Truth #6]

All obvious stuff for Spurs fans. I was hoping the other scrubs would get mentioned too. At least Udoka was tough.

[coyotes_geek]

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????

If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

Hindsight. At the time all the Spurs, as well as all of us fans, saw was the proverbial athletic small forward who could score that we had been desparate for since Sean left. There was no way to know that he'd be such a bad fit here.

[Dex]

Jefferson picked up two quick, ticky-tack calls in the first two minutes, and never recovered. It looked like he was trying to come out and be aggressive. But once he came back of the bench, that was all gone. Typical RJ.

[Spurs Brazil]

Hindsight. At the time all the Spurs, as well as all of us fans, saw was the proverbial athletic small forward who could score that we had been desparate for since Sean left. There was no way to know that he'd be such a bad fit here.

TBH, I see no RJ in the last 2 or 3 season but Spurs should do a better research of what they were getting. Since he only played for uptempo teams this trade was a huge gamble

To tell the true when this trade happened I got very excited because, as you said, I thought we got the athletic 3 that we're searching for. But after see him for 15 games you already see he's a bad fit.

R.C and his guys are paid to see those things and they fail. There were other players who should be better fit for the Spurs system.

[Blackjack]

Hindsight. At the time all the Spurs, as well as all of us fans, saw was the proverbial athletic small forward who could score that we had been desparate for since Sean left. There was no way to know that he'd be such a bad fit here.

I disagree. I bit my tongue after the deal and hoped for the best, but there was a post from exstatic that I remember encapsulating my concerns:


5-1-2009


RJ has never been, and will never BE a STUD in the NBA. On most teams, he'd be a complementary 2nd or 3rd option. On the Spurs, you could literally watch his scoring drop to about 12-13 points as the #4 banana. Way too much money for that.

I've always categorized RJ in that Shawn Marion box: he's not a guy who can lead a team or even take over a game. His game is WAY to dependent on other people. He's never going to put a team on his back and win a series for you. He can't create. He literally needs to be spoonfed his offense. With that in mind, 14.6 million is WAY too much cap money to spend on him. He's not a difference maker, but he's making difference maker money. That's slow cap death. There's a reason NJ dumped him and MIL is looking to do the same.

The Spurs had to see some, if not all, the potential problems we and others foresaw. But the desperation to upgrade their talent immediately (the window was closing), combined with the financial climate, had them believing (IMO) they basically had two options: Carter or Jefferson.

Their first choice was Carter but when they couldn't put together a package they liked, they made the RJ deal; the guy was talented and given Pop's time with him during '04 (where RJ displayed admirable professionalism and a good personality that would seemingly fit in the locker room) they thought they might be able to make it work.

Not so much . . . (Props, ex :toast)

[crc21209]

We all saw RJ pick up his game in the 2nd half of the season, last night was just the fact that maybe he picked up 2 quick fouls and it threw him off his game, and add to the fact that it was his 1st Playoff game with a new team. And I don't buy the whole "Hill clearly wasnt ready to go yet" comment by Stein. To me it just looked like Hill was playing it too damn safe and was probably hesitant to do anything that would re-injure his ankle, therefore passing the ball off to Manu every chance he got..

[Spurminator]

Jefferson could have easily had 6 or 8 more points if he had hustled a little more on a few fast break opportunities. It was like he didn't want the open court dunk.

[coyotes_geek]

TBH, I see no RJ in the last 2 or 3 season but Spurs should do a better research of what they were getting. Since he only played for uptempo teams this trade was a huge gamble

To tell the true when this trade happened I got very excited because, as you said, I thought we got the athletic 3 that we're searching for. But after see him for 15 games you already see he's a bad fit.

R.C and his guys are paid to see those things and they fail. There were other players who should be better fit for the Spurs system.

Again, hindsight. No doubt, the trade didn't work out and the Spurs are paying a heavy price for that. I just take issue with the notion that the Spurs should be faulted for not knowing how this would work out ahead of time, especially considering how everyone, including all the experts and fellow GMs, coaches and other insiders were universally agreeing how great a deal the Spurs had made.

As for the whole "system" arguement, I think that's another point that's being overblown. Yeah, RJ is at his best in transition. Still, I don't think it's smart to just not trade for a guy because he's played his whole career in a different system. I sure as hell wouldn't let the fact that David Lee played for Mike Antoni stop me from getting him just because the knicks don't play the same style as the Spurs do. If you look at the numbers at the time of the trade RJ was still a guy who shot the 3 well and had the ability to get to the free throw line.

Obviously things didn't work out and I'm 100% for cutting ties with him this offseason. I just take issue with saying the Spurs should have known this would happen.

[mingus]

wasn't RJ a a 39% 3-point shooter last year? i bought into the trade on that basis. if he hits the three at the clip, this team is fine. i guess in that respect he was just a flash in the pan. his inability to directly benefit of off penetration by Parker and Manu is what is killing this team. Bowen was a sure 2-3 3 point guy a game it seemed, esp in the playoffs. not having that, and maybe even more important the threat of that, and not mention his defense, is killing this team. so he basically doesn't compliment our 2 best players (when they are both in the game) because he can't space things out. the team has always needed spot up shooter at the 3. going back to Bruce, Barry, Jaren Jackson/Mario Elie, Stephen Jackson. it's been a staple in the offense. Hubie Brown has actually pointed this out in his commentary that they are lacking in that area. i think that is more of a problem than anything this year. more than lack of size, specifically.

[coyotes_geek]

I disagree. I bit my tongue after the deal and hoped for the best, but there was a post from exstatic that I remember encapsulating my concerns:



The Spurs had to see some, if not all, the potential problems we and others foresaw. But the desperation to upgrade their talent immediately (the window was closing), combined with the financial climate, had them believing (IMO) they basically had two options: Carter or Jefferson.

Their first choice was Carter but when they couldn't put together a package they liked, they made the RJ deal; the guy was talented and given Pop's time with him during '04 (where RJ displayed admirable professionalism and a good personality that would seemingly fit in the locker room) they thought they might be able to make it work.

Not so much . . . (Props, ex :toast)

I agree with all that, and if the Spurs were acquiring RJ with the intention of making him their #2 or #3 guy I'd have had a big problem with it. But they weren't. They were looking for a #4 guy. Yes, the contract was ridiculous, but that ridiculous contract was the only reason the asking price was so low.

[mingus]

i'm sure the Spurs will find a place to dump him this summer. it'll be, hopefully, priority number 1b (next to Splitter of course).

they'll basically need to get a sf that can hit the three at 39% + and play defense.

[m33p0]

a bad fit maybe but that's no excuse for meekness.

[Big P]

rj= same shit different day.....experiment=FAIL

[Cane]

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????

If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

Because it looked great on paper.

Unfortunately the Spurs as a team fell off defensively. Great defense creates easy offensve which would have made a lot of opportunities better suited to RJ's style. RJ certainly doesn't help when it comes to defense but if the Spurs defended like their championship years he'd have an easier time.

[HankChinaski]

The fact he is considering opt'ing out of his contract I think improves his chances of getting traded. Work out a deal and then possibly new organization works around with him opt out with them so he can pursue something FA or resign new deal with said team. I'm dreaming more or less but that would be something nice especially if we end up taking a contract a team isn't fond of but a player we have interest in.

[rayray2k8]

This thing is a few months too late.. Marc Stein fail. :rolleyes

[Spurologist]

We'll see what RJ is made off in game 2. He's been called out by everyone imaginable.

[sammy]

What I don't understand is why the Spurs gave up Theo Ratliff? We really need a big to help with rebounding and we let him go? Damn you Pop! He's really playing well for the Charlotte Bobcatters!

[Blackjack]

I agree with all that, and if the Spurs were acquiring RJ with the intention of making him their #2 or #3 guy I'd have had a big problem with it. But they weren't. They were looking for a #4 guy. Yes, the contract was ridiculous, but that ridiculous contract was the only reason the asking price was so low.

The post wasn't about his salary, it was in response to this:


Again, hindsight. No doubt, the trade didn't work out and the Spurs are paying a heavy price for that. I just take issue with the notion that the Spurs should be faulted for not knowing how this would work out ahead of time, especially considering how everyone, including all the experts and fellow GMs, coaches and other insiders were universally agreeing how great a deal the Spurs had made.

As for the whole "system" arguement, I think that's another point that's being overblown. Yeah, RJ is at his best in transition. Still, I don't think it's smart to just not trade for a guy because he's played his whole career in a different system. I sure as hell wouldn't let the fact that David Lee played for Mike Antoni stop me from getting him just because the knicks don't play the same style as the Spurs do. If you look at the numbers at the time of the trade RJ was still a guy who shot the 3 well and had the ability to get to the free throw line.

Obviously things didn't work out and I'm 100% for cutting ties with him this offseason. I just take issue with saying the Spurs should have known this would happen.


RJ has never been, and will never BE a STUD in the NBA. On most teams, he'd be a complementary 2nd or 3rd option. On the Spurs, you could literally watch his scoring drop to about 12-13 points as the #4 banana. Way too much money for that.

I've always categorized RJ in that Shawn Marion box: he's not a guy who can lead a team or even take over a game. His game is WAY to dependent on other people. He's never going to put a team on his back and win a series for you. He can't create. He literally needs to be spoonfed his offense. With that in mind, 14.6 million is WAY too much cap money to spend on him. He's not a difference maker, but he's making difference maker money. That's slow cap death. There's a reason NJ dumped him and MIL is looking to do the same.

While the trade may have seemed to be a no-brainer, value-wise (talent given up to talent obtained), the fit was anything but. And the point isn't to call you or anyone out ... it's just pretty mind-boggling to think people that get paid to do this for a living (whether it be in a front office, in the media or otherwise) wouldn't have had the foresight.

But maybe the Spurs did; circumstance and desperation has a funny way of making long odds look decent.

[DesignatedT]

No excuses for RJ anymore. Im not buying this system bullshit. Put up or Shut up RJ. you fucking pussy.

[ffadicted]

It's just sad to see Caron adjust so well to a completely new system and team, and RJ fail so badly, when they're both so similar

[Blackjack]

No excuses for RJ anymore. Im not buying this system bullshit. Put up or Shut up RJ. you fucking pussy.

http://itconsultant.boblandstrom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/man-shaving-square-peg-to-fit-round-hole-thumb5938409.jpg

Where there's a will ... there's a way. :tu

[jdev82]

$15 million dollar Udoka.

udoka was better.

[jdev82]

i think its time to bench his ass and actually make him earn his minutes.

[jdev82]

start blair at the 4 so he can score on dirk, tim at center, bogans at 3, manu and ghill or tpark. jefferson can have scraps from the table

[Blackjack]

It's just sad to see Caron adjust so well to a completely new system and team, and RJ fail so badly, when they're both so similar

Butler's a damn good basketball player when he's right. He's been one of my favorite non-Spurs for a while now and it kills me that he landed with the Mavs.

Other than toughness, a great mid-range shot and an ability to be a factor on the court, regardless of whom he's surrounded with, those two are one in the same. :D

[Killakobe81]

If you guys had gotten Caron instead of RJ and Mavs had RJ you guys are up 1-0 right now ...
everyone talks about Dirk but dirk scored 36 and Tim 27 -9 no bigie dirk is a scorer

But caron got what 22 to RJ's 4?!!!! R you serious?! that is -18 at SF for one of the highest paid players on your roster ... that can not happen if you plan to win some games this series.

Hell even marion outscored him 9 to 4

[Blackjack]

start blair at the 4 so he can score on dirk, tim at center, bogans at 3, manu and ghill or tpark. jefferson can have scraps from the table

What has SpursTalk done to me?

I can't see that without thinking of the poster instead of the player. :lol

[Big P]

We'll see what RJ is made off in game 2. He's been called out by everyone imaginable.

Everyone has been saying the same thing all year long..let me save you some time..rj is not made of anything that can help us win...he's not gonna "sack" it up now because Pop called him out..he will benefit us as a team when he is traded or bought out.

[vander]

what "bad contracts" out there might we be able to trade RJ's expiring for?

I don't follow other teams too much, is Philly still happy with Igoudala? what about Hamilton from Detroit?

IMO we won't want to re-sign RJ when his deal is up, and we won't be able to sign anybody else for more than the MLE. we'll need to trade RJ for a long contract that some other team want's out of...

[SPURSCHAMP]

Jefferson did suck even Mason could o gotten more in 32 min going probably 1/5 from 3 and 2/14 field goals

[pjjrfan]

Considering how the Spurs were clueless in defending Dirk in that epic WCSF series in 2006, and considering how the Fakers upgraded and "lengthened" their frontline in 2008, it's obvious that the Spurs have needed to add length to their frontline for some time now. That said, it's inexcusable to me how the FO has failed to directly address this deficiency all this time. For this post, I'm electing to ignore Splitter because he's not here, which makes him the proverbial "bird in the bush". He doesn't count, since he's not here - meaning he can't help.

There has been ample time to either draft, acquire, develop or trade for a big that could provide adequate help to, not only help defend a player like Dirk, but also provide some relief Duncan. Many of us ask the question, "where's Ian?" Pop hasn't done himself, his team, or this kid any favors by stunting the development of this kid, by icing him to the bench for most of the season.

Meanwhile, Pop insists on countering with his usual series of small-ball lineups featuring a collection of inferior PFs and SFs, who masquerade as 5's.

Back to the point of the thread, I hold out absolutely no hope for RJ. By now, if we've not seen a pulse from him before, we're not going to see one now. Chalk that acquisition up as a failure.
I was arguing the same point last night with my family as I watched Bogans, Bonner and McDyess being manhandled by Nowitski. It's been like 5 years now that even Bowen was finding it hard to defend Nowitski and that issue has never been addressed. Sefolosha, Ariza, Pietrus, a bunch of 6-7 to 6-8 guys that are athletic and long and we keep getting 6-5 and under, Mason and Bogans have experience but are not very athletic, man, I was so excited thinking that Hairston had beaten out Bogans during the preseason only to see him shipped out to the D League, now he's sitting in a suit. And even if he had been in uniform he has missed out on a full season where he could have been learning our system and getting a feel for the NBA, the same probable goes for Ian. Still, I think this team can beat the Mavs, but guys like RJ have to step up and be contributers not spectators.

[HarlemHeat37]

When the Spurs acquired RJ, they were banking on his shooting improvement..I wrote a long post about this a few months ago with numbers and everything, but I'll summarize the parts I remember here..

Jefferson shot 47% off jump shots last season, IIRC..when you consider the volume, it's by far the highest of his career..he shot 40% from 3s as well..this season, he's shooting 40% off jump shots and 32% from 3s..a 7% decrease in general and an 8% decrease from downtown..

While I don't believe the Spurs were trying to make him a spot-up shooter, I'm sure his shooting "improvement" certainly had a lot to do with why they acquired him..RJ shot A LOT more jump shots last season and had to create much more of his own offense, yet his jump shot % was MUCH better last season..

It's safe to say that his shooting last season was an anomaly..the Spurs FO did fuck up by acquiring him since the fit was questionable either way(I was happy with the deal though, considering what the Spurs gave up..I also assumed Jefferson had another gear since he had been playing on shitty teams the 2 previous seasons, and assumed that the Spurs' coaching had better plans), but they certainly didn't expect Jefferson's jump shot to disappear after last season's improvement..

Hopefully he can be packaged this off-season for an Iguodala-type..Iggy will have to adjust as well and could have some problems here too, but he creates offense better than Jefferson and he's a much better defender..he's more ideal to help the scoring droughts here..hopefully Philly still wants to ship him out..

[sefant77]

I dont see Iggy going to the Spurs.

It will be either Iggy+Brand (Spurs wont have the contract to match brand) or its Iggy for expiring and great talent/picks.

[murpjf88]

Oh come on! Is it fair to dump on RJ after one playoff game. Sure, he was a disappointment in game one, but you've got to believe that he's going to turn it around for game 2. He was just starting to come into his own before the playoffs, now , you just have to give him a chance. I know for a fact he'll pull through because thats the kind of player he is. You just have to take a leap of faith.

[sribb43]

RJ playing with spurs fans mind saying he might opt out...no way he passes on 15 mil guarenteed for mle deal. Based in his play this season, teams won't be throwing $$$ at him with all the other big FA

[sefant77]

He wont opt out. He need a Marion like deal (40/5) above the MLE. He wont get that, he wouldnt get the MLE for 5 years.

RJ will stay but at least as expiring. But the big 2010 dumping is over, just Philly i can see but the price is Brand..

[HarlemHeat37]

Philly isn't going to play around with the Spurs like that..they obviously realize that no team in the NBA is going to take Brand's contract unless they're getting an amazing player or prospect, and Philly doesn't have that..their team is bad and they don't have a future, they have no leverage against other teams..

There have been plenty of reports that have said that they don't view Iguodala as a franchise guy(he obviously isn't a #1 or even a #2) and that they would be willing to move him..

I highly doubt they want to pay Iguodala for the number of years remaining, it wouldn't surprise me to see them dump him..getting a huge expiring in RJ + the new CBA coming up makes sense for them..salary dumping isn't just about 2010..

TBH, I don't think the Spurs are going to take back a contract like Iguodala's..I think they're just going to keep Jefferson and let him expire..I think Philly would definitely do some kind of deal involving them, Elton Brand won't be involved at all..

[sefant77]

I could see them demanding Hill back...

[Ice009]

That is the 15 million dollar question.

Boy, do I wish the FO would've acquired SJax instead?

We still could have gotten SJax for Mason Jr, Bonner and Finley to add to RJ, but apparently he was too expensive at 7 Million ;). That's what a lot of people in the forum here said.

I said SJax was cheap as shit and would huge if we tried to get him back in November. Some people said I was crazy, but oh well.

[DesignatedT]

trade his ass for Deng. Would love to see him in Silver and Black.

[michaelwcho]

So why the hell you traded for him???????????????????

If you know a player doesn't work on a certain system why try. Maybe we could get something better with those expiring contracts

Dberri at Wages of Wins wrote that Jefferson wasn't a good player when the trade was made (according to his stat system). Since WoW is usually pretty on, I didn't expect much from Jefferson.

Essentially the argument was he was a fairly inefficient scorer coming to a team that had efficient scorers. He would be taking shots away from people better than him. Only one ball.

[SenorSpur]

Philly isn't going to play around with the Spurs like that..they obviously realize that no team in the NBA is going to take Brand's contract unless they're getting an amazing player or prospect, and Philly doesn't have that..their team is bad and they don't have a future, they have no leverage against other teams..

There have been plenty of reports that have said that they don't view Iguodala as a franchise guy(he obviously isn't a #1 or even a #2) and that they would be willing to move him..

I highly doubt they want to pay Iguodala for the number of years remaining, it wouldn't surprise me to see them dump him..getting a huge expiring in RJ + the new CBA coming up makes sense for them..salary dumping isn't just about 2010..

TBH, I don't think the Spurs are going to take back a contract like Iguodala's..I think they're just going to keep Jefferson and let him expire..I think Philly would definitely do some kind of deal involving them, Elton Brand won't be involved at all..

Iggy would be a good get for the Spurs, but, like yourself, I can't see the Spurs taking on a player with that many years remaining on his contract.

If not him, how about Travis Outlaw, who will be a free agent this offseason?

[murpjf88]

Dberri at Wages of Wins wrote that Jefferson wasn't a good player when the trade was made (according to his stat system). Since WoW is usually pretty on, I didn't expect much from Jefferson.

Essentially the argument was he was a fairly inefficient scorer coming to a team that had efficient scorers. He would be taking shots away from people better than him. Only one ball.

The majority of the posters in this forum need to see it for themselves rather than take someone else's word for it. Their mostly stat savvy. They automatically assume a players potential output is based on his past credentials.

Most of the same posters that called me out months back are the same ones that want to run him out of town. Its a damn shame it took an entire season to point out the obvious to the most oblivious.

[coyotes_geek]

While the trade may have seemed to be a no-brainer, value-wise (talent given up to talent obtained), the fit was anything but. And the point isn't to call you or anyone out ... it's just pretty mind-boggling to think people that get paid to do this for a living (whether it be in a front office, in the media or otherwise) wouldn't have had the foresight.

But maybe the Spurs did; circumstance and desperation has a funny way of making long odds look decent.

It shouldn't be mind-boggling because if the people getting paid to do this for a living had perfect foresight there would be no such thing as draft busts, bad trades and bad signings. NBA personnel management is an inexact science and sometimes you're just going to be wrong. Like the Spurs were here. Sucks for us, but that's the nature of the beast. I certainly respect everyone's right to hold the FO to whatever standard they deem fit, but IMO expecting perfection is unrealistic.

[SenorSpur]

The post wasn't about his salary, it was in response to this:





While the trade may have seemed to be a no-brainer, value-wise (talent given up to talent obtained), the fit was anything but. And the point isn't to call you or anyone out ... it's just pretty mind-boggling to think people that get paid to do this for a living (whether it be in a front office, in the media or otherwise) wouldn't have had the foresight.

But maybe the Spurs did; circumstance and desperation has a funny way of making long odds look decent.

True. The Spurs FO has seldom been wrong in when targeting players they thought could fit their system. While all of us were delighted about the RJ acquisition, myself included, it does boggle the mind wondering how they missed this badly on a player who is such a dreadfully bad fit for this team.

[TJastal]

Oh come on! Is it fair to dump on RJ after one playoff game. Sure, he was a disappointment in game one, but you've got to believe that he's going to turn it around for game 2. He was just starting to come into his own before the playoffs, now , you just have to give him a chance. I know for a fact he'll pull through because thats the kind of player he is. You just have to take a leap of faith.

I sense some hidden sarcasm here....

[coyotes_geek]

True. The Spurs FO has seldom been wrong in when targeting players they thought could fit their system. While all of us were delighted about the RJ acquisition, myself included, it does boggle the mind wondering how they missed this badly on a player who is such a dreadfully bad fit for this team.

Evidently I'm in the minority here, but I don't think the Spurs missed on judging his game. They missed on judging his attitude and mental toughness. From what I've seen with RJ this season it's all mental with him. To me he just looks like a guy who is out there trying so hard to make everyone around him happy instead of just trying to play his game. Once a couple of things go wrong for him, be it a foul call, a turnover or a blown defensive assignment he just folds under the pressure he puts on himself and he's done for the night.

The Spurs went after the guy who just wanted to fit in here when what they really needed was a guy who wouldn't be afraid to try and make a name for himself here. That's where they screwed up, IMHO.

[rjv]

Evidently I'm in the minority here, but I don't think the Spurs missed on judging his game. They missed on judging his attitude and mental toughness. From what I've seen with RJ this season it's all mental with him. To me he just looks like a guy who is out there trying so hard to make everyone around him happy instead of just trying to play his game. Once a couple of things go wrong for him, be it a foul call, a turnover or a blown defensive assignment he just folds under the pressure he puts on himself and he's done for the night.

The Spurs went after the guy who just wanted to fit in here when what they really needed was a guy who wouldn't be afraid to try and make a name for himself here. That's where they screwed up, IMHO.

the mental toughness on this time starts with manu, tim and tony in that order and then you have some from mcdyess and blair has it as well. hill is probably the same. but then it stops. not one other player has it. you would think they would see what utah and portland did against all odds and feel the impetus to man up. but for some players, the basket shrinks come playoff time.

[SenorSpur]

Evidently I'm in the minority here, but I don't think the Spurs missed on judging his game. They missed on judging his attitude and mental toughness. From what I've seen with RJ this season it's all mental with him. To me he just looks like a guy who is out there trying so hard to make everyone around him happy instead of just trying to play his game. Once a couple of things go wrong for him, be it a foul call, a turnover or a blown defensive assignment he just folds under the pressure he puts on himself and he's done for the night.

The Spurs went after the guy who just wanted to fit in here when what they really needed was a guy who wouldn't be afraid to try and make a name for himself here. That's where they screwed up, IMHO.

Perhaps you're referring to a "tough-as-nails", badass, like Stephen Jackson? A dude who was pure game and pure attitude. A dude who fancied himself as the Anti-Spur?

[coyotes_geek]

Perhaps you're referring to a "tough-as-nails", badass, like Stephen Jackson? A dude who was pure game and pure attitude. A dude who fancied himself as the Anti-Spur?

Given the ever-continuing list of former employers who have decided they're better off not having SJax around, no, not him. Besides, the Spurs need offesnive efficiency, not high volume low percentage shot chuckers.

[rjv]

Given the ever-continuing list of former employers who have decided they're better off not having SJax around, no, not him. Besides, the Spurs need offesnive efficiency, not high volume low percentage shot chuckers.

for instance, a 3 point shooter who delivered like kerr or barry as opposed to bonner and mason.