Free Throw Disparity

[ezau]

Mavs- 34

Spurs- 14

and you chokers only won by six? I really think the Mavs are going to win this series not because they're better, but because they simply get too many calls from the refs. Regardless, these little chokers are going to get bukkaked by whoever they meet in the Finals. Once a choker, always a choker

[MavDynasty]

Jason Terry sucking pure fucking dick going 2-9 and you still lost by 6?

Keep it fucking up!


lol moral victories

[debo]

no excuses. we could have won if we played better. good news is, its a best of seven series so we can still turn it around.

[ezau]

I wish it's 2006 all over again so the Mavs get to experience another backdoor sweep. Go Cuban, go Dirk, go refs!

[BadOdor]

Damn, spur fans are little bitches.

[weebo]

If the spurs don't want the mavs shooting freethrows, then here's a novel idea. Quit fouling. What I see from this spurs team is a team that defends more with their hands and less with the type of lateral quickness required by a trap defense. It also doesn't help when you have Bonner and Mason on the floor.

[weebo]

Jason Terry sucking pure fucking dick going 2-9 and you still lost by 6?

Keep it fucking up!


lol moral victories

dude chill out...jason terry has been sucking ass most of the season

[MavDynasty]

dude chill out...jason terry has been sucking ass most of the season

:lol Exactly.

Dallas is giving a jumpshooting piece of shit a bunch of minutes even though he can't hit the broad side of the barn. It's been like this since the 09 playoffs. Barea got a shitload of minutes in game 1 as well and literally contributed nothing (15 minutes,0-2 FG, 0 points)

[badfish22]

Lmao ezau. Typical of this little bitch.

[ZB 512]

I wish it's 2006 all over again so the Mavs get to experience another backdoor sweep. Go Cuban, go Dirk, go refs!

The Spurs shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

Duncan shot more FTs overall in the series than Dirk in 2006...

dont let facts get in your way though

[VBM]

:lol Exactly.

Dallas is giving a jumpshooting piece of shit a bunch of minutes even though he can't hit the broad side of the barn.

Wait...Roger Mason is on your team?

[MavDynasty]

Spurs shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

Duncan shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

dont let facts get in your way though

Did you mean Duncan shooting more than Dirk?

[ZB 512]

Did you mean Duncan shooting more than Dirk?

ya, fixed it...

[MavDynasty]

Wait...Roger Mason is on your team?

Both have sucked ass this season, both can't play D to save their lives.

Terry is still better than RMJ however even during a shitty year :lmao

[weebo]

Mason has no business playing the sport of basketball. I think he spends too much time trying to get his hair just the right way to give a shit about basketball.

[ezau]

The Spurs shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

Duncan shot more FTs overall in the series than Dirk in 2006...

dont let facts get in your way though

Check out game 3 or were you too busy crying after the Heat cumberstomped you?

[VBM]

Mason has no business playing the sport of basketball. I think he spends too much time trying to get his hair just the right way to give a shit about basketball.

http://i27.tinypic.com/244taud.jpg

"Don't talk about my hair like that, biatch!"

[Mr.Robinson]

The Spurs shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

Duncan shot more FTs overall in the series than Dirk in 2006...

dont let facts get in your way though

The thing is Dirk was gifted his free throws. Duncan was being doubled hard and at times he was getting butchered. Everytime the Spurs would take a lead the refs would send Dirk to the line. Dirk is a jump shooting big man. Duncan was playing in the paint.

[DesignatedT]

It's all the off the ball fouls and weak ass soft fouls that happen away from the ball that really starts pissing me off.

Yes, Dirk got fouled a lot and some were fouls and some weren't but that happens with every big name superstar (except duncan it seems) but those ticky tack fouls that happen so early in every quarter that put the spurs in the penalty with like 8 minutes left in the quarter is fucking insane. Then the mavs start shooting free throws for some bullshit bumping call or fighting through a screen call that really changes the game and stops momentum.

If the NBA continues to call the games that soft there is no doubt that style of play benefits dallas and hurts the spurs. Not saying we still can't win though.

[MateoNeygro]

Any team with Dirk Nowitzki is going to get a shit ton of ticky tac bullshit calls. I honestly don't think there is a single player in the league that gets as many questionable calls as he does. Even more than Kobe, Wade, LeBron not to mention the guys I mention take it to the hoop a lot more than Dirk. Don't get me wrong Dirk is an amazing player but I've never seen a player benifit from the whistles more than Dirk.

[dude1394]

Scoreboard

[DesignatedT]

scoreboard

4 rings faggot.

[spursfaninla]

no shit scoreboard. THis is a ref complaining, we could have won if it was not for the refs thread, duh scoreboard.

[DubMcDub]

Check out game 3 or were you too busy crying after the Heat cumberstomped you?

Are you a Heat fan? I thought you were a Spurs fan.

Incidentally, I think one of my favorite things in sports is when two fans are trash talking each other, and then there's that moment where one of them realizes he's in over his head and has to start trash talking vicariously through another team that's not his.

[TJastal]

Any team with Dirk Nowitzki is going to get a shit ton of ticky tac bullshit calls. I honestly don't think there is a single player in the league that gets as many questionable calls as he does. Even more than Kobe, Wade, LeBron not to mention the guys I mention take it to the hoop a lot more than Dirk. Don't get me wrong Dirk is an amazing player but I've never seen a player benifit from the whistles more than Dirk.

I can understand the frustration of watching a superstar get repeated superstar calls. But if you look at the big picture you wouldn't be.

My take on Nowitski

Dirk is a superstar and gets superstar calls during the regular season when games don't matter as much and against teams the nba doesn't care for in the playoffs (like the spurs... especially the spurs). Then he is treated like superstar royalty just like the others (the Wade's, Lebrons, Kobes', Shaq etc)
It's a big reason the mavs have been able to consistently beat the spurs the past 6 years. Josh Howard was also given the royal carpet treatment by refs as well when playing against the spurs but that is for a different argument. The combination of both of them getting superstar treatment made it difficult for the spurs to beat them.

On the big stage when he is faced against his peers (Wade's, Lebron's, Kobe's, Shaq's) he is a 2nd class superstar at best.

Proof? Who benefited from calls in the biggest games of Dirks' career in 2006 when it mattered, Dirk or D-whistle?

Heat were allowed to mug the mavericks and especially Dirk all series long, Shaq and Haslem basically did whatever they wanted and when the mavs tried to even lift a finger to stop D-whistle the refs stepped and sent him to the line repeatedly.

Again, just my take on it, and when you look at the big picture it's easy to see it's not the smaller puppets like Dirk you should be mad at, its the nba refs and Stern who is the main puppeteer pulling the strings at the top.

[ezau]

Are you a Heat fan? I thought you were a Spurs fan.

Incidentally, I think one of my favorite things in sports is when two fans are trash talking each other, and then there's that moment where one of them realizes he's in over his head and has to start trash talking vicariously through another team that's not his.

I know it's still painful after four years. Going to your mom son and ask for a good tap in the back

[ezau]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs lose this series again because of these fucking zebras. If the Mavs beat the Spurs, I still don't see them hoisting the LOB this June, unless Noringski shoots 30 FT a game

[TJastal]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs lose this series again because of these fucking zebras. If the Mavs beat the Spurs, I still don't see them hoisting the LOB this June, unless Noringski shoots 30 FT a game

+1

If its Nowitszki vs Lebron in the finals Dirk will suddenly go from "major superstar" to 3rd class citizen overnight.

He'll have a done his job for the nba though (like a good little puppet), which is to eliminate the spurs and any chance of foiling the grand master plan.

[Slippy]

Im not so sure if the focus should be freethrow disparity. For me, it's the protection Dirk is getting . If they going to call soft calls that have no place in the play-offs then you have to call it the same for the other team. For example Bonner fighting for posi on the high post against Dirk . Tim was doing it all night on the low post. For every slight bump on Dirk, Manu and Tony were getting those all night some even in the act of shooting. Results were no-calls. For every hand check foul or fingernail foul that gave Dirk the bonus, our big three were having the ball knocked out of their hands all night. When they were in fact called fouls did you all notice how Dallas players had no complaints.

What bugs me the most . I thought Dice and Bonner played about as good a defense that you can humanly and legally play in defending Dirk . The guy just made tough shot after tough shot . That should of been the story of the game but instead to see constant and1's or bail-outs that even after replays appeared to be no-calls was just wrong. More amazing , for a guy that was fouled many times as Dirk was they seemed to have zero effect on his shot.

Now im not saying i want this series to be called tightly because it slows the game down and puts the focus on the refs. Downright favouritism for one player , superstar treatment , what-ever you want to call it. They all make for an ugly spectacle of the game. It also leaves the games/series tainted. Going against everything great about basketball. That it's played on a level playing field, in this case a level court. The calls have to consistent on every player . Hopefully the NBA is sending out a memo out to the refs - this the play-offs. Let the men play and tough it out.

[TJastal]

Im not so sure if the focus should be freethrow disparity. For me, it's the protection Dirk is getting . If they going to call soft calls that have no place in the play-offs then you have to call it the same for the other team. For example Bonner fighting for posi on the high post against Dirk . Tim was doing it all night on the low post. For every slight bump on Dirk, Manu and Tony were getting those all night some even in the act of shooting. Results were no-calls. For every hand check foul or fingernail foul that gave Dirk the bonus, our big three were having the ball knocked out of their hands all night. When they were in fact called fouls did you all notice how Dallas players had no complaints.

What bugs me the most . I thought Dice and Bonner played about as good a defense that you can humanly and legally play in defending Dirk . The guy just made tough shot after tough shot . That should of been the story of the game but instead to see constant and1's or bail-outs that even after replays appeared to be no-calls was just wrong. More amazing , for a guy that was fouled many times as Dirk was they seemed to have zero effect on his shot.

Now im not saying i want this series to be called tightly because it slows the game down and puts the focus on the refs. Downright favouritism for one player , superstar treatment , what-ever you want to call it. They all make for an ugly spectacle of the game. It also leaves the games/series tainted. Going against everything great about basketball. That it's played on a level playing field, in this case a level court. The calls have to consistent on every player . Hopefully the NBA is sending out a memo out to the refs - this the play-offs. Let the men play and tough it out.

What appears to you to be "no-calls" or just "wrong" were in fact legitimate fouls. That's how the league works nowadays and has worked for 3 years now... the offensive player gets all the benefits. Nowitski is simply taking full advantage of how the league officiates nowadays.

The spurs problems were turnovers mostly. Duncan got the ball knocked out of his hands multiple times because he sat there indecisively for seconds at a time with the ball directly in front of him.. of course Dampier is going to knock it away if you make it that easy...Parker kept fumbling/losing the ball and Ginobili just threw it away to the other team several times.

Bonner ... I can't believe your trying to make an argument there. Dude has been getting rung up for much less all season long against scrubs. You really think he's going to be allowed to shove and push for post position practically out to the 3pt line in the playoffs... against Dirk Nowitski? Please....just quit being a pansy and bitching you sound pathetic.

[Waps1980]

Lets see if Dirk can hit 85% again this series.
If he can't yoru boys might be in trouble.

[ZB 512]

Lets see if Dirk can hit 85% again this series.
If he can't yoru boys might be in trouble.

I doubt the Spurs will shoot 50 percent from the field again either...

[ZB 512]

Any team with Dirk Nowitzki is going to get a shit ton of ticky tac bullshit calls. I honestly don't think there is a single player in the league that gets as many questionable calls as he does. Even more than Kobe, Wade, LeBron not to mention the guys I mention take it to the hoop a lot more than Dirk. Don't get me wrong Dirk is an amazing player but I've never seen a player benifit from the whistles more than Dirk.

Actually, the facts dont back up your statement. Dirk was 11th in the league in FT attempts per game this season (7 per game, the leaders averaged 10 per game)...while he was 6th in FG attempts per game

again dont let the facts get in your way though

[Slippy]

What appears to you to be "no-calls" or just "wrong" were in fact legitimate fouls. That's how the league works nowadays and has worked for 3 years now... the offensive player gets all the benefits. Nowitski is simply taking full advantage of how the league officiates nowadays.

.


Legit fouls because that's how the league works nowa-days? Superstar treatment has been part of the NBA for a lot longer than that. Dirk last night was the only beneficiary. No-calls have also been part of the NBA for an eternity... IF the league called every legit foul in a technical sense , the game would boil down to a free-throw contest and everyone would foul out. it doesn't work that way .

My point was , if you going to favour one player and not afford that same treatment to others, then it's wrong. Who cares if it's been happening for three years. Share those benifits or go back to how it should be . A fair contest of basketball.


The spurs problems were turnovers mostly. Duncan got the ball knocked out of his hands multiple times because he sat there indecisively for seconds at a time with the ball directly in front of him.. of course Dampier is going to knock it away if you make it that easy...Parker kept fumbling/losing the ball and Ginobili just threw it away to the other team several times.



Yes lets focus only on the offense. Turn-overs. Thanks for stating the obvious. They sure didn't help. Wrong thread though. This is about the tone being set on defense by refs.

Tony and Manu missed out on a lot of calls that to you appeared to be from their own doing. If you noticed Dirk with legit fouls , then should of seen the same "legit"calls not going the Spurs way. Funny that? Must be hard for you to focus with Mason used as a fouling machine mixed in with those un-wise moments.

[QUOTE][Bonner ... I can't believe your trying to make an argument there. Dude has been getting rung up for much less all season long against scrubs. You really think he's going to be allowed to shove and push for post position practically out to the 3pt line in the playoffs... against Dirk Nowitski? Please....just quit being a pansy and bitching you sound pathetic/QUOTE]

I just realized im having a discussion with an NBA fanboy. Bonner defended Dirk as well as any-one could expect from him but you saw different.
That's exactly my beef . I think the refs from last night's game were seeing the game exactly the same way you see it. For some, labels and reps is all that matters. Suckers like you fall for it every day.

[ZB 512]

Which of the 6 shooting fouls for Dirk were BS? I keep asking Spurs fans for examples and no one will provide any. How many FTs should Dirk have had? What was an acceptable number from entitled Spurs fans?

[ZB 512]

The thing is Dirk was gifted his free throws. Duncan was being doubled hard and at times he was getting butchered. Everytime the Spurs would take a lead the refs would send Dirk to the line. Dirk is a jump shooting big man. Duncan was playing in the paint.

yea Bowen and the rest of the Spurs were not physical at all in defending Dirk and Dirk was not aggressive or attacking on offense at all [/sarcasm]

Like I said, Duncan shot more free throws than Dirk in that series. That is a fact. Yet you still complain, because the Spurs lost.

[Mr.Robinson]

yea Bowen and the rest of the Spurs were not physical at all in defending Dirk and Dirk was not aggressive or attacking on offense at all [/sarcasm]

Like I said, Duncan shot more free throws than Dirk in that series. That is a fact. Yet you still complain, because the Spurs lost.

Watch game 3.

[TJastal]

Which of the 6 shooting fouls for Dirk were BS? I keep asking Spurs fans for examples and no one will provide any. How many FTs should Dirk have had? What was an acceptable number from entitled Spurs fans?

Apparently TP, Duncan and Manu got mugged all game long in the paint but curiously you won't find examples of that either.

It's like that annoying little brother that cries to mommy that big brother hit him when all big brother did was was look at him funny.

[spurspf]

yea Bowen and the rest of the Spurs were not physical at all in defending Dirk and Dirk was not aggressive or attacking on offense at all [/sarcasm]

Like I said, Duncan shot more free throws than Dirk in that series. That is a fact. Yet you still complain, because the Spurs lost.

What Bowen is playing? Hurray! You have got to admit though, the Spurs were going to the basket, yet they went to the line less than the pink ponies.

[jack0fspeed]

complaining about a free throw disparity of 20 when 12 are intentionally given is absurd.

[TJastal]

Legit fouls because that's how the league works nowa-days? Superstar treatment has been part of the NBA for a lot longer than that. Dirk last night was the only beneficiary. No-calls have also been part of the NBA for an eternity... IF the league called every legit foul in a technical sense , the game would boil down to a free-throw contest and everyone would foul out. it doesn't work that way .

My point was , if you going to favour one player and not afford that same treatment to others, then it's wrong. Who cares if it's been happening for three years. Share those benifits or go back to how it should be . A fair contest of basketball.

Bottom line, Nowitski just did what smart offensive nba players do in today's game, which is to force/draw the contact with the defensive player to get the fouls. The spurs have guys who can do that too but last night they were too busy turning the ball over to get anything going toward the basket. At least if they did force contact and didn't get calls, I didn't see it. If you have examples of it I'll gladly take it into consideration

Yes lets focus only on the offense. Turn-overs. Thanks for stating the obvious. They sure didn't help. Wrong thread though. This is about the tone being set on defense by refs.

Tony and Manu missed out on a lot of calls that to you appeared to be from their own doing. If you noticed Dirk with legit fouls , then should of seen the same "legit"calls not going the Spurs way. Funny that? Must be hard for you to focus with Mason used as a fouling machine mixed in with those un-wise moments.
Still waiting for you to name a few "legit" calls that didn't go Manu and TP's way.

Bonner ... I can't believe your trying to make an argument there. Dude has been getting rung up for much less all season long against scrubs. You really think he's going to be allowed to shove and push for post position practically out to the 3pt line in the playoffs... against Dirk Nowitski? Please....just quit being a pansy and bitching you sound pathetic/QUOTE]

I just realized im having a discussion with an NBA fanboy. Bonner defended Dirk as well as any-one could expect from him but you saw different.
That's exactly my beef . I think the refs from last night's game were seeing the game exactly the same way you see it. For some, labels and reps is all that matters. Suckers like you fall for it every day.

Hey I don't like it either (how the refs treat Bonner) but its a fact that isn't going away so the spurs might as well come to grips with the reality of it and quit expecting it to change. And quite honestly Bonner's defense on that particular play was way over the top aggressive and just begging for a foul to be called

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I'm not going to blame the loss on the refs, it is what it is, but I believe Mavs fans, who act so arrogantly right now, will be crying about officiating very soon, whether against the Spurs, or in a later round if they win the series. It has happened before.

[TJastal]

I'm not going to blame the loss on the refs, it is what it is, but I believe Mavs fans, who act so arrogantly right now, will be crying about officiating very soon, whether against the Spurs, or in a later round if they win the series. It has happened before.

Predictably and once again conveniently for the league Nowitski is doing the dirty work for the nba (eliminating the spurs) and if successful he'll go back to being a nobody in the league against the Carmelos/Kobes/Lebrons/Wade/Shaq (guys who they really promote).

It'll be like 2006 all over again.

[FromWayDowntown]

Most of the time, I'm convinced that many Mavs fans believe that one free throw for the Spurs is too many free throws for the Spurs. And it is ironic to see the fanbase that is most vocal about the egregiousness of biased officiating rally to the defense of the officials when it is not their ox that's being gored. If it was Ginobili shooting almost as many free throws than the entire Mavericks roster, I suspect there would be a great deal of unhappiness coming out of Dallas about that.

With that said, however, what was most problematic for the Spurs on Sunday was the fact that they committed an absurd number of shooting fouls -- fouls that occurred before the Mavs even got the Spurs into the penalty. This has probably been fleshed out elsewhere, so forgive the redundancy. But of the Mavs earned free throws (that is, discounting the 6 that Dampier got in the latter part of the third quarter), almost 2/3 of the FTA that the Mavs got came before the Spurs were in the penalty.

My numbers are rough -- I frankly don't have time to do this precisely -- the Spurs conceded the following numbers of FTA in pre-penalty situations:

1st quarter -- 6 free throws (out of 7); Spurs go into penalty at 24.3
2nd quarter -- 1 free throw (out of 5); Spurs go into penalty at 2:54
3rd quarter -- 4 free throws (out of 9 non-Dampier FTA); Spurs go into penalty at 4:59
4th quarter -- 6 free throws (out of 6 FTA)

Subtracting out the 6 Hack-a-Damp FTA, 17 out of the 28 Mavs FTA weren't the consequence of the Mavs being in the bonus. In Game 1 the Spurs were whistled for 28 total fouls. Taking out 2 offensive fouls (one each on Hill and Jefferson) and 3 intentional fouls on Dampier, the Spurs committed 23 fouls in the game. Of those 9 ended up being shooting fouls that had nothing to do with the bonus. That suggests to me that the Mavs were more aggressive and forced fouls in shooting situations. Aggressive teams tend to get whistles and that can frequently account for disparities in FTA.

I realize that Spurs fans will say that some of those calls were illegitimate, but it does appear that the officials were calling basically the same game all night and the Spurs either really didn't do much to adjust or were unable to defend without fouling. (The latter strikes me as being pretty realistic, since this team hasn't exactly been a defensive stalwart throughout the 2009-10 season.)

More importantly, it says to me that when the Mavs made late-quarter runs in the 2nd and 3rd, it wasn't on the strength of free throws. That's troubling and if the Spurs don't fix it, 2010 will just be a repeat of 2009.

[Slippy]

Bottom line, Nowitski just did what smart offensive nba players do in today's game, which is to force/draw the contact with the defensive player to get the fouls. The spurs have guys who can do that too but last night they were too busy turning the ball over to get anything going toward the basket. At least if they did force contact and didn't get calls, I didn't see it. If you have examples of it I'll gladly take it into consideration



You not even close to what he did. He hit tough jumpshots with hand in face.
. The guy was hitting high arcing , left and right fade-aways all night. He hardly attacked the rim. The one time he flailed his arms
was a no-call and the shot went in. Stop buying into the headlines and try watching the game on both ends.


Still waiting for you to name a few "legit" calls that didn't go Manu and TP's way.



Watch Manu run around all game trying to free himself up. He has his progress impeded a bunch of times . Some in-advertant bumps that only Manu draws.
That's a legit call in your book, a no-call in mine. Tony as soon as he got on the court was hacked driving to the rim. Did you think he was complaining for nothing? Later on with the shot clock running down Tony takes a jumper from right baseline where he's bodied up in motion of shooting. In Dirk's world that's a foul. In the play-offs that's a no-call that i can live with as long as it's called consistent for both teams.

You wont get it how-ever . You see the game differently to many here . Like ROger Mason running around a screen that he un-wsiely created for himself, instead of fighting through "air" to get to a wide-open KIDD.

.:rolleyes



[QUOTE][Hey I don't like it either (how the refs treat Bonner) but its a fact that isn't going away so the spurs might as well come to grips with the reality of it and quit expecting it to change. And quite honestly Bonner's defense on that particular play was way over the top aggressive and just begging for a foul to be called /QUOTE]

Read Ludden's article . That was Dirk letting the refs know i don't like the attention im getting from Matt Bonner. In any other play-off game not involving Dirk that's a no-call. Tim's fighting it out just as hard down low with no bailout. In the play-offs, thats the norm. As long as it goes both ways.

[SpurCharger]

If the spurs don't want the mavs shooting freethrows, then here's a novel idea. Quit fouling. What I see from this spurs team is a team that defends more with their hands and less with the type of lateral quickness required by a trap defense. It also doesn't help when you have Bonner and Mason on the floor.
Agreed with you on the more Hands and less lateral Quickness..... but Did You Watch The Game and see The Phantom Calls The refs were Making???? I mean Come on..... Stevie Wonder Could See That Game was Reffed Horrible.

[elbamba]

If the Spurs want to win they need to catch the basketball and not have stupid unforced turnovers. We lost the game because of the turnovers and weak play by RJ and Hill, not the free throw line.

[SpurCharger]

If the Spurs want to win they need to catch the basketball and not have stupid unforced turnovers. We lost the game because of the turnovers and weak play by RJ and Hill, not the free throw line.
I agree with you Partially..... but it is very Hard to get any type of Momentum goin in a Game, when you cant even play aggressive..... the Mavs could play aggressive, but when we tried to match there intensity, the whistle blew damn near everytime....I would like to see more from Hill, and RJ, and A few Less Turnovers.... but The refs Controlled Game 1 without a Doubt... All I want Is A Fair Reffed Game... dont favor any team, and let the best Team win...

[TJastal]

You not even close to what he did. He hit tough jumpshots with hand in face.
. The guy was hitting high arcing , left and right fade-aways all night. He hardly attacked the rim. The one time he flailed his arms
was a no-call and the shot went in. Stop buying into the headlines and try watching the game on both ends.

Yet the spurs kept reaching in and bumping his arm and body on every jumpshot he took. And when they didn't he was initiating the contact which is the smart thing to do because of how the game is reffed nowadays with the offensive player recieving all the benefits. You can whine about it all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he is just making the smart basketball plays

Watch Manu run around all game trying to free himself up. He has his progress impeded a bunch of times . Some in-advertant bumps that only Manu draws.
That's a legit call in your book, a no-call in mine. Tony as soon as he got on the court was hacked driving to the rim. Did you think he was complaining for nothing? Later on with the shot clock running down Tony takes a jumper from right baseline where he's bodied up in motion of shooting. In Dirk's world that's a foul. In the play-offs that's a no-call that i can live with as long as it's called consistent for both teams.
Wow, somebody got bumped in a playoff game? Get out!
You wont get it how-ever . You see the game differently to many here . Like ROger Mason running around a screen that he un-wsiely created for himself, instead of fighting through "air" to get to a wide-open KIDD.

.:rolleyes
Doesn't matter how bad Roger's decision was. As soon as Dirk's defender (Bogans I guess it was) saw Roger going under the screen he's gotta recognize and get a hand in Kidd's face


[QUOTE][Hey I don't like it either (how the refs treat Bonner) but its a fact that isn't going away so the spurs might as well come to grips with the reality of it and quit expecting it to change. And quite honestly Bonner's defense on that particular play was way over the top aggressive and just begging for a foul to be called /QUOTE]

Read Ludden's article . That was Dirk letting the refs know i don't like the attention im getting from Matt Bonner. In any other play-off game not involving Dirk that's a no-call. Tim's fighting it out just as hard down low with no bailout. In the play-offs, thats the norm. As long as it goes both ways.
If it was Dice, I'd agree you might have a point. But this is Matt Bonner were talking about. Dude has routinely been singled out all year long as the ref's personal whipping boy for trying to play even passable defense. Expecting that to suddenly change in the playoffs is silly. It's one of the reasons I wanted to ship his ass out and bring in a guy like Tyrus Thomas because he becomes a liability in crucial situations.

[TJastal]

I agree with you Partially..... but it is very Hard to get any type of Momentum goin in a Game, when you cant even play aggressive..... the Mavs could play aggressive, but when we tried to match there intensity, the whistle blew damn near everytime....I would like to see more from Hill, and RJ, and A few Less Turnovers.... but The refs Controlled Game 1 without a Doubt... All I want Is A Fair Reffed Game... dont favor any team, and let the best Team win...

:whine

[quentin_compson]

Most of the time, I'm convinced that many Mavs fans believe that one free throw for the Spurs is too many free throws for the Spurs. And it is ironic to see the fanbase that is most vocal about the egregiousness of biased officiating rally to the defense of the officials when it is not their ox that's being gored. If it was Ginobili shooting almost as many free throws than the entire Mavericks roster, I suspect there would be a great deal of unhappiness coming out of Dallas about that.

With that said, however, what was most problematic for the Spurs on Sunday was the fact that they committed an absurd number of shooting fouls -- fouls that occurred before the Mavs even got the Spurs into the penalty. This has probably been fleshed out elsewhere, so forgive the redundancy. But of the Mavs earned free throws (that is, discounting the 6 that Dampier got in the latter part of the third quarter), almost 2/3 of the FTA that the Mavs got came before the Spurs were in the penalty.

My numbers are rough -- I frankly don't have time to do this precisely -- the Spurs conceded the following numbers of FTA in pre-penalty situations:

1st quarter -- 6 free throws (out of 7); Spurs go into penalty at 24.3
2nd quarter -- 1 free throw (out of 5); Spurs go into penalty at 2:54
3rd quarter -- 4 free throws (out of 9 non-Dampier FTA); Spurs go into penalty at 4:59
4th quarter -- 6 free throws (out of 6 FTA)

Subtracting out the 6 Hack-a-Damp FTA, 17 out of the 28 Mavs FTA weren't the consequence of the Mavs being in the bonus. In Game 1 the Spurs were whistled for 28 total fouls. Taking out 2 offensive fouls (one each on Hill and Jefferson) and 3 intentional fouls on Dampier, the Spurs committed 23 fouls in the game. Of those 9 ended up being shooting fouls that had nothing to do with the bonus. That suggests to me that the Mavs were more aggressive and forced fouls in shooting situations. Aggressive teams tend to get whistles and that can frequently account for disparities in FTA.

I realize that Spurs fans will say that some of those calls were illegitimate, but it does appear that the officials were calling basically the same game all night and the Spurs either really didn't do much to adjust or were unable to defend without fouling. (The latter strikes me as being pretty realistic, since this team hasn't exactly been a defensive stalwart throughout the 2009-10 season.)

More importantly, it says to me that when the Mavs made late-quarter runs in the 2nd and 3rd, it wasn't on the strength of free throws. That's troubling and if the Spurs don't fix it, 2010 will just be a repeat of 2009.

:tu

Mavs were pretty good at mixing shooting jumpers and going to the rim. Especially in the fourth quarter, if I recall correctly, and the Spurs' defense didn't have an answer for that.

The Spurs will have to find a way to penetrate more. Our guards and RJ are able to do that, and if it doesn't happen, there won't be many FT for us - and no four wins in this series as well.

[FromWayDowntown]

I should add that the Spurs committed 9 shooting fouls before going into the penalty and only 1 of those was an and-1.

[Slippy]

[QUOTE=TJastal;4257699][QUOTE=Slippy;4257644]
Yet the spurs kept reaching in and bumping his arm and body on every jumpshot he took. And when they didn't he was initiating the contact which is the smart thing to do because of how the game is reffed nowadays with the offensive player recieving all the benefits. You can whine about it all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he is just making the smart basketball plays

still not close. the well will dry up with those fadeaways . You've seen nothing yet with Dirk initiating contact.


\Wow, somebody got bumped in a playoff game? Get out!

there you go, you do get it. It happens, it 's the play-offs.

Doesn't matter how bad Roger's decision was. As soon as Dirk's defender (Bogans I guess it was) saw Roger going under the screen he's gotta recognize and get a hand in Kidd's face

:lol you are full of it. Try watching the game again and tell me how in the hell you expected Bogans to jump over Nowtizki a handful of feet to get to KIDD.
. The only thing Bogans needs to recognize is what a meathead mason is at defending .

[TD 21]

Jason Terry sucking pure fucking dick going 2-9 and you still lost by 6?

Keep it fucking up!


lol moral victories

Nowitzki scored well above his average, as did Butler. If Terry is around his average next game, chances are these two will regress, so it all evens out.


The Spurs shot more FTs overall in the series than Dallas in 2006...

Duncan shot more FTs overall in the series than Dirk in 2006...

dont let facts get in your way though

Here's a fact: Duncan plays in the low post and often goes into contact. Nowitzki plays at the pinch post and often goes away from contact.

Duncan earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them; Nowitzki doesn't. Yet inexplicably and mysteriously, he's amongst the league leaders annually. He shouldn't have shot anywhere near the amount Duncan did in that series. That he was even close made no sense.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Nowitzki scored well above his average, as did Butler. If Terry is around his average next game, chances are these two will regress, so it all evens out.

Butler's 8-19 was hardly a great game. You think his percentage will drop merely because Terry's might go up?


Here's a fact: Duncan plays in the low post and often goes into contact. Nowitzki plays at the pinch post and often goes away from contact.

Duncan earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them; Nowitzki doesn't. Yet inexplicably and mysteriously, he's amongst the league leaders annually. He shouldn't have shot anywhere near the amount Duncan did in that series. That he was even close made no sense.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd21/shadyparadox/limoguy.png

Maybe Bonner should quit love-tapping the forearm. And-one, muthafucka.

[MavDynasty]

Nowitzki scored well above his average, as did Butler. If Terry is around his average next game, chances are these two will regress, so it all evens out.



Here's a fact: Duncan plays in the low post and often goes into contact. Nowitzki plays at the pinch post and often goes away from contact.

Duncan earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them; Nowitzki doesn't. Yet inexplicably and mysteriously, he's amongst the league leaders annually. He shouldn't have shot anywhere near the amount Duncan did in that series. That he was even close made no sense.

Dude a foul is a foul as pussy as it might be which even I agree that some of those fouls, while still fouls, were "soft fouls". Hate on Dirk and the Mavs all you want but nothing is fixed or rigged for them to get calls against the Spurs. It is shitty officiating and it's the dumbass zebras that can't call shit right. If only BOTH teams could get the same calls...A pussy tap on one end resulting in FT's should be called on the other end as well but it is what it is.

[TD 21]

Butler's 8-19 was hardly a great game. You think his percentage will drop merely because Terry's might go up?

Maybe Bonner should quit love-tapping the forearm. And-one, muthafucka.

It's not the percentage, it's the points. It's unlikely he averages 22 ppg in this series.

On one of the fouls, Nowitzki bumped his head into Bonner's arm twice and yet Bonner was called for a foul. If Nowitzki is going to continue to get calls like that, the Spurs aren't winning this series. These teams are close enough that a couple of those per game could easily make the difference in a couple of games and swing the series.

MavsDynasty, I agree it's not "rigged against the Spurs", because they're no longer relevant enough to even be in that position. In '06, they were. I strongly believe that the league wanted them out before they made the finals again (they had to have had enough of the low ratings) and they knew that the Mavs were the last chance at that happening. Duncan, at that time the best player in the league, getting a sixth foul for Nowitzki stepping on his foot? Nowitzki making 3 shots yet scoring 27 points (on 24 free throws) in a game? These things went beyond plain old bad officiating.

[LakerHater]

Mavs- 34

Spurs- 14

and you chokers only won by six? I really think the Mavs are going to win this series not because they're better, but because they simply get too many calls from the refs. Regardless, these little chokers are going to get bukkaked by whoever they meet in the Finals. Once a choker, always a choker
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/338896/bennett_medium.jpg

[MavDynasty]

It's not the percentage, it's the points. It's unlikely he averages 22 ppg in this series.

On one of the fouls, Nowitzki bumped his head into Bonner's arm twice and yet Bonner was called for a foul. If Nowitzki is going to continue to get calls like that, the Spurs aren't winning this series. These teams are close enough that a couple of those per game could easily make the difference in a couple of games and swing the series.

MavsDynasty, I agree it's not "rigged against the Spurs", because they're no longer relevant enough to even be in that position. In '06, they were. I strongly believe that the league wanted them out before they made the finals again (they had to have had enough of the low ratings) and they knew that the Mavs were the last chance at that happening. Duncan, at that time the best player in the league, getting a sixth foul for Nowitzki stepping on his foot? Nowitzki making 3 shots yet scoring 27 points (on 24 free throws) in a game? These things went beyond plain old bad officiating.

From an unbiased perspective, do you think the '06 Mavs were more fun to watch than the '06 Suns?

[TD 21]

From an unbiased perspective, do you think the '06 Mavs were more fun to watch than the '06 Suns?

I see your angle, but that's irrelevant. Everyone knew in '06 either the Spurs or the Mavs were coming out of the West. If the Suns couldn't beat the Spurs with Stoudemire (who's a tougher match-up for them than Nowitzki), what makes you think they'd have even been competitive without him? The Mavs were the league's only hope at not having the Spurs reach the finals again.

[ZB 512]

Nowitzki scored well above his average, as did Butler. If Terry is around his average next game, chances are these two will regress, so it all evens out.



Here's a fact: Duncan plays in the low post and often goes into contact. Nowitzki plays at the pinch post and often goes away from contact.

Duncan earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them; Nowitzki doesn't. Yet inexplicably and mysteriously, he's amongst the league leaders annually.

People bite on Dirk's pump fakes constantly. If you think that a go to scorer who averages the 6th most FG attempts a game cant pump fake a player out of his shoes an average of 3 or 4 shots a game, and if you dont think he gets banged around a lot while isolating at the elbow or free throw line, then your opinion is a travesty.

You dont only get fouled in the low post, or driving to the lane. However, If you dont think Dirk tries to drive past defenders, then you must not have watched him play much or you just cant see it because of your Spurs glasses. Dirk could drive past a defender 10 times in a game and Spurs fans would still say "OMG he's only a jump shooter".

The leaders in FT attempts average 10 a game (including Durant who has a similar game to Dirk's but posts up less and shoots more threes). Dirk averages 7 FT attempts a game as one of the most difficult match ups in the league. Considering how many shots Dirk takes and how physical and aggressive most teams are in their strategy in defending Dirk, an average of 7 FTs a game is about right, if not a little low compared to other go to scorers (also remember that Dirk is the teams best FT shooter and is therefore the designated FT shooter in technical foul situations. They also get the ball to him in intentional foul situations which adds to his FTs as well).


He shouldn't have shot anywhere near the amount Duncan did in that series. That he was even close made no sense.Dirk had more FG attempts than Duncan in that series also and Duncan still shot more free throws

You dont understand basketball if you think you only get fouled 5 feet from the basket...but anyway, Dirk constantly dribble drove the ball and attacked from all over the court in that series. They had to respect his drives, which in turn made it difficult for the Spurs to deal with 7697858965 pump fakes isolating in the high post....and if you dont think the Spurs were physical in defending him then you are delusional with revisionist memory.

Spurs nation wasnt used to seeing the officiating "close" on both sides or another team ever getting the FT advantage. That's probably why many Spurs fans still feel "entitled".

[DPG21920]

Please stop acting like Dirk gets hit more than Tim.

[TD 21]

People bite on Dirk's pump fakes constantly. If you think that a go to scorer who averages the 6th most FG attempts a game cant pump fake a player out of his shoes an average of 3 or 4 shots a game, and if you dont think he gets banged around a lot while isolating at the elbow or free throw line, then your opinion is a travesty. You dont only get fouled in the low post, or driving to the lane. However, If you dont think Dirk tries to drive past defenders, then you must not have watched him play much or you just cant see it because of your Spurs glasses. Dirk could dribble drive 15 times in a game and Spurs fans would still say "OMG he's only a jump shooter"

The leaders in FT attempts average 10 a game (including Durant who has a similar game to Dirk's but posts up less and shoots more threes). Dirk averages 7 FT attempts a game as one of the most difficult match ups in the league. Considering how many shots Dirk takes and how physical and aggressive most teams are in their strategy in defending Dirk, an average of 7 FTs a game is about right, if not a little low compared to other go to scorers (also remember that Dirk is the teams best FT shooter and is therefore the designated FT shooter in technical foul situations. They also get the ball to him in intentional foul situations which adds to his FTs as well).

Dirk had more FG attempts than Duncan in that series also and Duncan still shot more free throws

You dont understand basketball if you think you only get fouled 5 feet from the basket...but anyway, Dirk constantly dribble drove the ball and attacked from all over the court in that series and if you dont think the Spurs were physical in defending him then you are delusional with revisionist memory.

Spurs nation wasnt used to seeing the officiating "close" on both sides or another team ever getting the FT advantage. That's probably why many Spurs fans still feel "entitled". The Spurs are one of the last franchises that should be complaining about officiating, considering you have benefited from it more than most teams in the league.

Just another idiot who can't read. I never said any of this. What I said was the way Nowitzki generally draws free throws defies logic. You're supposed to go into contact; he goes away from it. Can you draw them another way? Absolutely. But not at the rate he does. Why do you think when a team isn't getting to the line the coach says "drive the ball, stop settling for jump shots, make the official make a decision"? They don't say "stand at the pinch post/elbows and shoot fade and fall away jumpers". I don't expect you to apologize for it, but I have no idea why Mavs fans argue this.

[ZB 512]

Just another idiot who can't read. I never said any of this. What I said was the way Nowitzki generally draws free throws defies logic. You're supposed to go into contact; he goes away from it. Can you draw them another way? Absolutely. But not at the rate he does. Why do you think when a team isn't getting to the line the coach says "drive the ball, stop settling for jump shots, make the official make a decision"? They don't say "stand at the pinch post/elbows and shoot fade and fall away jumpers". I don't expect you to apologize for it, but I have no idea why Mavs fans argue this.

When you have to respect a player's ability to drive past you, it's tough to deal with 966785678587 pump fakes and spins isolating in the high post at the elbow and free throw line. It's a similar thing with Kobe Bryant when it comes to the pump fakes and dribble drives.

You act like you've never watched Dirk play. He's one of the toughest matchups in the league because he can score from anywhere on the court, in a plethora of ways, including driving the lane. For example, when Pop put Bogans on Dirk the other night, he did that mainly to keep Dirk from being able to drive. That is usually the intention when coaches put smaller, quicker players on Dirk.

[DPG21920]

So then Ginobili should shoot 100 FT's because he has one of the most impressive head fakes in the game. Not to mention he forces his way to the rim.

[ZB 512]

So then Ginobili should shoot 100 FT's because he has one of the most impressive head fakes in the game. Not to mention he forces his way to the rim.

You should consider Ginobili's field goal attempts. He doesnt have as many FGAs but Manu does get fouled on a similar percentage of his shots.

[TD 21]

When you have to respect a player's ability to drive past you, it's tough to deal with 966785678587 pump fakes and spins isolating in the high post at the elbow and free throw line. It's a similar thing with Kobe Bryant when it comes to the pump fakes and dribble drives.

You act like you've never watched Dirk play. He's one of the toughest matchups in the league because he can score from anywhere on the court, in a plethora of ways, including driving the lane. For example, when Pop put Bogans on Dirk the other night, he did that mainly to keep Dirk from being able to drive. That is usually the intention when coaches put smaller, quicker players on Dirk.

I'm not disputing any of this, but this doesn't take away the fact that Nowitzki draws an inordinate amount of calls in a way that defies logic. Why argue? I have no problem admitting that Bowen blatantly fouled James at the end of game three of the '07 finals. Or that Mason jumped on Dampier's back in game one, yet somehow wasn't called for a foul. It's not like you admitting it means he's not going to continue to get those calls. Take off the rose colored glasses.

The officiating is an absolute joke. Never won a thing Nowitzki digs his head into Bonner twice, falls away and get's rewarded with a call, but all-time great Duncan get's blatantly hammered on a drive and can't get a call.

[LOL@MavsFan]

LOL Mavs

[LOL@MavsFan]

LOL Dirk the Whiplash Nobitchki

[endrity]

There is a whole thread on this in the NBA section. It's simply labeled Dirk. I and a few others have spent all day there today, and I think some interesting conclusions have been found. You'd all be well advised to have a thorough look.

[sefant77]

Nowitzki scored well above his average, as did Butler. If Terry is around his average next game, chances are these two will regress, so it all evens out.



Here's a fact: Duncan plays in the low post and often goes into contact. Nowitzki plays at the pinch post and often goes away from contact.

Duncan earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them; Nowitzki doesn't. Yet inexplicably and mysteriously, he's amongst the league leaders annually. He shouldn't have shot anywhere near the amount Duncan did in that series. That he was even close made no sense.

Here is the thing: Duncan IS a post player playing in the post.

Dirk plays outside like a guard or a wing. He catches the ball 17-20ft away from the basket and almost always get a ellbow hammered in his back pushing him offbalance.

If Parker or Gino would catch a ball near there and getting such ellbows in the back pushing them the whole GDT would go berserker screaming for the foul.

And yet Dirk not even get THIS calls (or barely) when he just catched the ball far outside. He gets the calls like the pic up when the defender touches his shotting arm and sometimes when the defender used both arms (Bonner did it like every 2nd time).

Dont compare the calls of Duncan with Dirks when he is outside, compare them with the calls of Parker and Gino. I dont see Gino getting ellbowed in the back constantly having the ball...

[DPG21920]

So you are saying the closer you play to the basket, the more you are allowed to get hit without a call?

[pad300]

When you have to respect a player's ability to drive past you, it's tough to deal with 966785678587 pump fakes and spins isolating in the high post at the elbow and free throw line. It's a similar thing with Kobe Bryant when it comes to the pump fakes and dribble drives.

You act like you've never watched Dirk play. He's one of the toughest matchups in the league because he can score from anywhere on the court, in a plethora of ways, including driving the lane. For example, when Pop put Bogans on Dirk the other night, he did that mainly to keep Dirk from being able to drive. That is usually the intention when coaches put smaller, quicker players on Dirk.

ZB 512, your not really getting it.
Dirk's FTA/FGA ratio for his career is 6.6/16.9. (39% for reference)
In 05/06 it was 7.0/18.2.
In 09/10 it was 7.2/18.5.

In the regular season
against the spurs 05/06 8/18, in the playoffs against the spurs
against the spurs 09/10 7/26

in the 05/06 playoff series, 11.4/15.7 (73%). Overall in playoffs (including the spurs data) he was 9.9/18.2 (9.3/19.3 w/o the Spurs).
In 09/10 the playoffs to date, he's 12/14.

In the 05/06 playoff series, and the current one to date, he, and the rest of the mavericks by the by, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to their career averages, their averages that year, their averages playing against the spurs that year, and their averages against other playoff opponents... it says to me, the whole tone of the officiating changes for that series.

Worse if was at both ends, the spurs perimeter players should see the same inflation; you'd think Ginobili, for example, would have his FT's go through the roof as well. Career 4.8/10.6. (45%)
05/06 regular season 5.5/10.3.
09/10 regular season 4.7/12 (yeah, he's been driving less this season, particularly early on...).
Against the Mavs,
05/06 regular season 8.67/12,
09/10 regular season 1/28 (yeah, this is a bit of an outlier, he didn't play the last game against you, only 7.5 minutes in the 2nd game against Dallas, and really was jumpshooting a LOT the other 2 times...)....

05/06 playoffs 8.6/12.9
09/10 playoffs so far 3/17

Those aren't out of line with his regular seasons against the Mavs, and not too bad on his career. The tone of the officiating only changes at one end of the court...

This is why Spurs fans get really pissed off about series against Dallas. It's like we're suddenly playing by FIBA rules rather than NBA rules.

[sefant77]

So you are saying the closer you play to the basket, the more you are allowed to get hit without a call?

Pushed, sure. Duncan play Damp way more physical than Gino can play Terry. Normal.

What i wanted to say, its weird to see when Dirk plays outside like a guard because during the position fight players can still play him like in the post. You dont see that with Durant etc.

[DPG21920]

Bull shit. If it is a foul on the perimeter (a push or contact), it is a foul down low.

[ZB 512]

I'm not disputing any of this, but this doesn't take away the fact that Nowitzki draws an inordinate amount of calls in a way that defies logic. Why argue? I have no problem admitting that Bowen blatantly fouled James at the end of game three of the '07 finals. Or that Mason jumped on Dampier's back in game one, yet somehow wasn't called for a foul. It's not like you admitting it means he's not going to continue to get those calls. Take off the rose colored glasses.

The officiating is an absolute joke. Never won a thing Nowitzki digs his head into Bonner twice, falls away and get's rewarded with a call, but all-time great Duncan get's blatantly hammered on a drive and can't get a call.

It doesnt "defy logic" at all that he can draw fouls. I explained that to you

So only Duncan "earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them"? ...and Nowitzki doesnt? That is what you stated.

Your entire premise is screwed up and I can see that im wasting my time debating with you. Dirk isnt even an "all time great" according to you.

[sefant77]

Bull shit. If it is a foul on the perimeter (a push or contact), it is a foul down low.

Not really. I never saw something like that on the perimeter, you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

[DPG21920]

Just because you see it does not make it right. Which is Spurs fans point. Just because you want to justify why Dirk gets the calls he does, does not make it right.

[TD 21]

Why would you compare Nowitzki's fouls to Ginobili's and Parker's? Completely different. They get the majority of theirs on dribble drives. You know, attacking the basket. Nowitzki get's the majority of his shooting fade and fall away jumpers from the elbow.

Nowitzki definitely isn't an all-time great. He's a Hall of Famer, though. There is a difference. Duncan is an all-time great. I know you're all biased, but would any of you really be ignorant enough and have the audacity to put these two in the same class historically? Not only is there a major disparity in their resumes, but one is an all around player, unlike the other, who is one dimensional.

[ZB 512]

ZB 512, your not really getting it.
Dirk's FTA/FGA ratio for his career is 6.6/16.9. (39% for reference)
In 05/06 it was 7.0/18.2.
In 09/10 it was 7.2/18.5.

In the regular season
against the spurs 05/06 8/18, in the playoffs against the spurs
against the spurs 09/10 7/26

in the 05/06 playoff series, 11.4/15.7 (73%). Overall in playoffs (including the spurs data) he was 9.9/18.2 (9.3/19.3 w/o the Spurs).
In 09/10 the playoffs to date, he's 12/14.

In the 05/06 playoff series, and the current one to date, he, and the rest of the mavericks by the by, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to their career averages, their averages that year, their averages playing against the spurs that year, and their averages against other playoff opponents... it says to me, the whole tone of the officiating changes for that series.

Worse if was at both ends, the spurs perimeter players should see the same inflation; you'd think Ginobili, for example, would have his FT's go through the roof as well. Career 4.8/10.6. (45%)
05/06 regular season 5.5/10.3.
09/10 regular season 4.7/12 (yeah, he's been driving less this season, particularly early on...).
Against the Mavs,
05/06 regular season 8.67/12,
09/10 regular season 1/28 (yeah, this is a bit of an outlier, he didn't play the last game against you, only 7.5 minutes in the 2nd game against Dallas, and really was jumpshooting a LOT the other 2 times...)....

05/06 playoffs 8.6/12.9
09/10 playoffs so far 3/17

Those aren't out of line with his regular seasons against the Mavs, and not too bad on his career. The tone of the officiating only changes at one end of the court...

This is why Spurs fans get really pissed off about series against Dallas. It's like we're suddenly playing by FIBA rules rather than NBA rules.

yea and Dirk also averages 3 more rebounds in the playoffs compared to his regular season average

his career numbers across the board are higher in the playoffs than his regular season averages

[sefant77]

I'm not disputing any of this, but this doesn't take away the fact that Nowitzki draws an inordinate amount of calls in a way that defies logic. Why argue? I have no problem admitting that Bowen blatantly fouled James at the end of game three of the '07 finals. Or that Mason jumped on Dampier's back in game one, yet somehow wasn't called for a foul. It's not like you admitting it means he's not going to continue to get those calls. Take off the rose colored glasses.

The officiating is an absolute joke. Never won a thing Nowitzki digs his head into Bonner twice, falls away and get's rewarded with a call, but all-time great Duncan get's blatantly hammered on a drive and can't get a call.

The Mason foul before halftime and the Bonner touching the ellbow foul and the GDT went nuts. On the replay you saw it was a easy clear call and still everyone called the refs blind etc.

In Game 1 its way more stupid players doing stupid (!) fouls than refs giving out presents.

And of course the refs blew 1-2 fouls on Duncan. They also blew when Blair hammered Haywood on a dunk or when Gino travelled his ass...

Thats about the homer glasses...

[ZB 512]

They get the majority of theirs on dribble drives. You know, attacking the basket. Nowitzki get's the majority of his shooting fade and fall away jumpers from the elbow.

Dirk's style is conducive to drawing fouls similar to Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant as I described earlier...although he doesnt draw nearly as many as those two, Dirk was 11th in FT attempts per game yet 6th in FG attempts per game. Dirk averaged 7 free throw attempts per game this season while those two averaged 10


Nowitzki definitely isn't an all-time great. He's a Hall of Famer, though. There is a difference. Duncan is an all-time great. I know you're all biased, but would any of you really be ignorant enough and have the audacity to put these two in the same class historically? Not only is there a major disparity in their resumes, but one is an all around player, unlike the other, who is one dimensional.LOL wtf?

A Hall of Famer IS an all time great

[DPG21920]

No, HOF is not all time great. Especially in the basketball HOF. But that is another point.

[sefant77]

Just because you see it does not make it right. Which is Spurs fans point. Just because you want to justify why Dirk gets the calls he does, does not make it right.

Im more trying to justify that you shouldnt scream about the refs, you should scream more about Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

[TD 21]

I've watched Nowitzki play literally hundreds of times. I think I have a pretty good idea of how he draws calls. It's the same idea most have. I'm not sure why you'd dispute that. Are you telling me he faces people up from 25 feet, beats them off the dribble, get's into the lane and draws his fouls that way? Get real.

No, a Hall of Famer isn't an all-time great. When I think of all-time greats, I'm thinking of top 10-15, maybe even 20 guys. Nowitzki isn't anywhere near that class, therefore he's not an all-time great.

[DPG21920]

Im more trying to justify that you shouldnt scream about the refs, you should scream more about Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls...

This thread is about the FT disparity. And you could easily be bitching about the Mav players getting called for stupid fouls if the contact that was a requisite for a foul on Dirk was the same for Tim.

[sefant77]

This thread is about the FT disparity. And you could easily be bitching about the Mav players getting called for stupid fouls if the contact that was a requisite for a foul on Dirk was the same for Tim.


Hack a Damp (not just the 6, also hammering him always under the basket

Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

Every roleplayer of the Spurs playing like a jumpshooting pussy

1-2 Homecourt calls

And the disparity isnt anymore so huge.

They blew 1-2 calls on Duncan, no doubt but the Spurs scrubs played incredible stupid defense on Dirk. Thats the point. Touching the ellbow during the shoot is rookie like.

[TD 21]

Jump shooting pussy, that's funny because that about sums up the Nowitzki era with the Mavs.

[pad300]

yea and Dirk also averages 3 more rebounds in the playoffs compared to his regular season average

his career numbers across the board are higher in the playoffs than his regular season averages

Dirk Nowitzki Carreer Playoffs FTA 870 over 1784 FGA.

Which is 48.7% << 73 % (never mind the 86% he's running so far in this series).

The 05/06 series, and this one so far, stick out like fucking crazy, against playoff averages, regular season averages, career averages, averages playing the spurs, whatever. The tone of the officiating changes RADICALLY, and you simply do not see a corresponding shift in the Spurs FTA...

PS. FREE ADVICE, you could have looked at Dirk's playoff numbers yourself, and looked a lot less like a homer troll looking for excuses...

[sefant77]

Jump shooting pussy, that's funny because that about sums up the Nowitzki era with the Mavs.

You try to discuss here or just bitch about Dirk?

blabla fourringsfaggots

[DPG21920]

Hack a Damp (not just the 6, also hammering him always under the basket

Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

Every roleplayer of the Spurs playing like a jumpshooting pussy

1-2 Homecourt calls

And the disparity isnt anymore so huge.

They blew 1-2 calls on Duncan, no doubt but the Spurs scrubs played incredible stupid defense on Dirk. Thats the point. Touching the ellbow during the shoot is rookie like.

:lol Blew 1-2 calls. If they called fouls for Tim for the same contact Dirk got hit with, there would have been at least 10 more FT's.

I don't disagree with the calls that Dirk got. I disagree with the no calls Tim got for way more contact.

[TD 21]

sefant77, learn to speak proper English before attempting to rip other people. Don't get mad at me because I used your own line against you and you came off looking like a bigger idiot than you already did, which is saying something.

[ZB 512]

Dirk Nowitzki Carreer Playoffs FTA 870 over 1784 FGA.

Which is 48.7% << 73 % (never mind the 86% he's running so far in this series).

The 05/06 series, and this one so far, stick out like fucking crazy, against playoff averages, regular season averages, career averages, averages playing the spurs, whatever. The tone of the officiating changes RADICALLY, and you simply do not see a corresponding shift in the Spurs FTA...

PS. FREE ADVICE, you could have looked at Dirk's playoff numbers yourself, and looked a lot less like a homer troll looking for excuses...

Compare that to other great players and it's very similar.

..lets look at Manu Ginobili for example: 586 FTA, 1217 FGA

...Chauncey Billups for another example: 4455 FTA, 10,180 FGA

You cant look at such numbers in a vacuum like you are. Like I said, Dirk's playoff numbers are higher than his regular season numbers across the board.

[sefant77]

sefant77, learn to speak proper English before attempting to rip other people. Don't get mad at me because I used your own line against you and you came off looking like a bigger idiot than you already did, which is saying something.

I was glad about the discussion without trash talk. Jumpshooting pussys was a proper description for the way the role players played (i think i even read that here in thr GDT). It was one reason for lesser FT.

Your quote about Dirks career had nothing to do with the discussion, thats why i answered like that.

I didnt know you have to speak fluently perfect english before someone is allowed to rip a person that goes offtopic.

[DesignatedT]

Duncan should be shooting the same amount of free throws as dirk if not more. Duncan gets hammered on a regular basis down low with a no call and then they turn around and call a touch foul on the forearm for dirk.

I'm not saying Bonner didn't foul dirk or Mason didn't foul him BUT if you are going to call shit like that a foul then you better fucking call it consistently on the other end (specifically on duncan)

I think that's what most of us are saying around here. It doesn't make sense.

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirk Nowitzki might well be the single greatest basketball player in the history of basketball players. Certainly more accomplished than a schmo like that dopey Tim Duncan.

[phxspurfan]

Another free throw thread!

[pad300]

Compare that to other great players and it's very similar...lets look at Manu Ginobili for example: 586 FTA, 1217 FGA

You cant look at such numbers in a vacuum like you are. Like I said, Dirk's playoff numbers are higher than his regular season numbers across the board.

Yep, 870/1784 (48.7%), Dirk, is indeed in at least the same ball park as 586/1217 (48.1%), Manu, which is why it's so batshit crazy that Dirks FTA/FGA jumped to 73% for that series. I'd be willing to bet real money, that Dirk does not have another 7 game stretch in his career where he gets within 10% of that ratio (ie. achieves a 63% FTA/FGA ratio), assuming playing 20+ MPG...That's the equivalent of Matt Bonner suddenly starting to draw fouls like Dirk...

[ZB 512]

Yep, 870/1784 (48.7%), Dirk, is indeed in at least the same ball park as 586/1217 (48.1%), Manu, which is why it's so batshit crazy that Dirks FTA/FGA jumped to 73% for that series. I'd be willing to bet real money, that Dirk does not have another 7 game stretch in his career where he gets within 10% of that ratio (ie. achieves a 63% FTA/FGA ratio), assuming playing 20+ MPG...

Duncan's ratio had an increase in that series as well and was higher than Dirk's. Duncan shot more FTs than Dirk on fewer FG attempts. It goes both ways buddy.

Anyway, like I said, you cant really look at those numbers in a vacuum. Every series is different. Some are more intense and more physical than others. You need to look at each series individually.


That's the equivalent of Matt Bonner suddenly starting to draw fouls like Dirk...what?

I cant say I understand your point at all

[Mav-elous Man]

Any team with Dirk Nowitzki is going to get a shit ton of ticky tac bullshit calls. I honestly don't think there is a single player in the league that gets as many questionable calls as he does. Even more than Kobe, Wade, LeBron not to mention the guys I mention take it to the hoop a lot more than Dirk. Don't get me wrong Dirk is an amazing player but I've never seen a player benifit from the whistles more than Dirk.

Its funny you mention that because alot of fans of other teams around the league say the same thing about Tim Duncan. It's also funny how he and Manu always have this shocked look on there face with their hands raised in the air like they didn't do anything everytime they clearly foul. NEWSFLASH Timmy and Manu!!!! Yes sometimes you DO foul. :nope

[pad300]

Duncan's ratio had an increase in that series as well and was higher than Dirk's. Duncan shot more FTs than Dirk on fewer FG attempts. It goes both ways buddy.

Anyway, like I said, you cant really look at those numbers in a vacuum. Every series is different. Some are more intense and more physical than others. You need to look at each series individually.

what?

I cant say I understand your point at all

Lets see, according to Basketball reference, Duncan's Career playoff FTA/FGA is 1375/2788 = 49.3%. In that series, Duncan shot 90 FTA, and took 144 FGA. 90/144 = 62.5%. 62.5 - 49.3 = 13.2% increase.

Meanwhile, Dirk, has a career playoff FTA/FGA of 870/1784 = 48.8%. In that series Dirk shot 80 FTA on 110 FGA. 80/110 =72.7%. 72.7-48.8 = 23.9%.

Lie # 1: "Duncan's ratio increase was higher than Dirks" 13.2% < 23.9%
Lie # 2: "Duncan shot more more FT's on fewer attempts than Dirk". 144 > 110

Also, this looking at numbers in a vacuum hand-waving, I'm not, I'm comparing each players historical performance to what was exhibited in that series. This pretty much highlights the difference in performance in that series relative to the average conditions throughout that players career. Given there have been few major rule changes (ie the size of the court hasn't changed, etc.) we are pretty much left with player performance and the refs calls. Yeah, Dirk was playing well, even for him. So were a lot of players that series. However, he wasn't playing THAT exceptionally, to justify him drawing FTA's at half again his normal rate...

Given the number of people who's opinion from watching is that the refereeing in that series was distinctly odd, this kind of statistical confirmation carries a significant weight.

[dude1394]

Mavs- 34

Spurs- 14

and you chokers only won by six? I really think the Mavs are going to win this series not because they're better, but because they simply get too many calls from the refs. Regardless, these little chokers are going to get bukkaked by whoever they meet in the Finals. Once a choker, always a choker

Let's try foul disparity...You guys are funny.


The Spurs were whistled for 28 fouls.
The Mavs were whistled for 20 fouls.
Of the Spurs' 28 fouls, how many of them were intentional/semi-intentional? Four or five?
So not counting the fouls that were part of Pop's "strategy,'' the "discrepancy'' adds up somewhere near: Dallas 20 fouls, Spurs 23 fouls.
Some discrepancy.

[dude1394]

Duncan should be shooting the same amount of free throws as dirk if not more. Duncan gets hammered on a regular basis down low with a no call and then they turn around and call a touch foul on the forearm for dirk.

I'm not saying Bonner didn't foul dirk or Mason didn't foul him BUT if you are going to call shit like that a foul then you better fucking call it consistently on the other end (specifically on duncan)

I think that's what most of us are saying around here. It doesn't make sense.

You have to start reading a rule book. Fouls are called differently in the post than outside the box...see manus for example. What folks have a problem with is realizing that dirk is playing in guard land, not post land much of the time. In guard land (check diva, kobe, lebron) things are a little bit different.

In fact dirk doesn't get nearly the calls he should out there because he still has his jersey grabbed, two hands on him and a crossbar on him. None of that would be tolerated against manu at the top of the key.